Guild Wars 2

Dear Anet team and forum readers,

For a long time now i have a idea in my head, to play a “tank” based class wich deals damage and becomes lethal with retaliation boon on him.
I would love that to be a guardian, so im leveling one now. While leveling i did some research and found out that Retaliation scales of power.

Wouldnt it be a good idea to let retaliation scale of toughness? By choosing toughness as main stat u wont be able to kill others quick (for pvp for example) but u will become a threat if combined with the boon retaliation. This would open up a lot of new builds, without compromising game stability by a large number.

For pve, u still have to watch your retaliation buff in order to be able to kill something, (high toughness means less damage taken and high retal damage) Btw u cant go afk and think i will kill everything around me, cause u still have to watch your buffs.

for pvp it will mean that u wont be much of a threat UNLESS you are attacked by people who are not watching your boons and go in to battle without thinking. This means that pvp becomes more exciting and more in depth then the current power and condi builds where people just go blindly into battles.

What do u guy’s and ofcourse Anet Devs think? I hope it will be picked up and if it is, maybe look into classes to give more retaliation traits/ skills and maybe boon stripping options??

Cheers!

It wouldn’t at all surprise me if many people disagree ’cause the general attitude towards stats tend to be little to no toughness.

I, however, LOVE toughness. I’ve also wanted to create in GW2 something akin to my old Thorns Paladin in Diablo 2. So, I’m definitely on board with your idea.

And Toughness needs to negate a % of Condi Damage or give us more access to Vitality or reduce the CD on cleanses.

Loosmaster.8263:

And Toughness needs to negate a % of Condi Damage or give us more access to Vitality or reduce the CD on cleanses.

Which I’m pretty sure a lot of condi players would not be happy about.

Ayrilana.1396:

Loosmaster.8263:

And Toughness needs to negate a % of Condi Damage or give us more access to Vitality or reduce the CD on cleanses.

Which I’m pretty sure a lot of condi players would not be happy about.

Well, I gave other options, lol.

Edit: Then let Retaliation affect Conditions or damage from Conditions back on them.

Ayrilana.1396:

Loosmaster.8263:

And Toughness needs to negate a % of Condi Damage or give us more access to Vitality or reduce the CD on cleanses.

Which I’m pretty sure a lot of condi players would not be happy about.

Rightfully so. There are already counters to condition builds, in the form of -duration, cleanses and Vitality. IMO, Toughness already does a lot for players, and does not need to also become a passive counter to condition damage.

That said, I’ve no objection to Retaliation scaling off Toughness. Power already provides a lot of bang for the buck. However, I can see a couple of possible objections.

1. Bunker builds would have an option to do more damage, and given the complaints about bunkers, I can see some push-back to those builds gaining any added functionality. One way to do it and circumvent reasonable complaints from that demographic would be to make an optimum Toughness/Retaliation build require a different trait line than the prevailing lines chosen by bunkers. This would generate opportunity cost, and the bunker would be giving up something to get something else.
2. People tend to favor the status quo. Change is an essential component to games that require longevity for profitability, but many players resist change. Not sure how to counter that.

thanks for all the replies!! Keep them coming

This is quite possibly the worst balance idea ever.

Unkillable bunker guardians who can’t even be engaged unless you’re a necro or a Mesmer or somehow traited for boon rip (something several classes can’t even do).

Being rewarded for passive, semi afk gameplay in PvE as you allow yourself to get hit and kill kitten without even trying.

Just. No.

Make a set of commanders gear. Power for your retal scaling, toughness for your tankiness, and concentration to make your retal last longer. All accomplished without destroying the game.

/Thread

Can’t really agree with the idea of allowing damage to scale off of a defensive stat.

Loosmaster.8263:

And Toughness needs to negate a % of Condi Damage or give us more access to Vitality or reduce the CD on cleanses.

This is actually a very bad idea. People really need to stop suggesting it.

First off, conditions are supposed to counter toughness.

Secondly, conditions are balanced around not having a reduction stat. If you added one the damage of conditions would have to increase to compensate. This would mean anyone without said stat would die even faster to conditions.

On topic, toughness is a defensive stat it shouldn’t really give offensive bonuses. If retaliation is to scale off something other than power it should be the strength of the incoming hit. At present retaliation dies very little to slow attacking enemies (like PvE ones). Making large hits cause larger retaliation hits would make it useful against more types of opponent.

Bogus.1598:

Dear Anet team and forum readers,

For a long time now i have a idea in my head, to play a “tank” based class wich deals damage and becomes lethal with retaliation boon on him.
I would love that to be a guardian, so im leveling one now. While leveling i did some research and found out that Retaliation scales of power.

Wouldnt it be a good idea to let retaliation scale of toughness? By choosing toughness as main stat u wont be able to kill others quick (for pvp for example) but u will become a threat if combined with the boon retaliation. This would open up a lot of new builds, without compromising game stability by a large number.

For pve, u still have to watch your retaliation buff in order to be able to kill something, (high toughness means less damage taken and high retal damage) Btw u cant go afk and think i will kill everything around me, cause u still have to watch your buffs.

for pvp it will mean that u wont be much of a threat UNLESS you are attacked by people who are not watching your boons and go in to battle without thinking. This means that pvp becomes more exciting and more in depth then the current power and condi builds where people just go blindly into battles.

What do u guy’s and ofcourse Anet Devs think? I hope it will be picked up and if it is, maybe look into classes to give more retaliation traits/ skills and maybe boon stripping options??

Cheers!

Retaliation is a “pseudo-counter” in GW2. Someone hits you while you have retal, they suffer backlash as a result. Logically speaking, that would mean it tends off power rather than some other stat.

Retaliation doesn’t need to scale off of toughness. Use cleric, sentinel or soldier gear for it.

You don’t need precision or fury for Retal anyways.

Guards can scale off condi traitsd. But that’s worthless even at 1600 condi

Ashen.2907:

Can’t really agree with the idea of allowing damage to scale off of a defensive stat.

This exactly. This is a terrible idea

Rather make guards radiant retaliation actually viable

People can say what they want about the devs being bad at balancing. But in my opinion the playerbase itself are 10x worse at balancing suggestions.

I am kinda benign on if Retaliation should work of toughness. It would be novel to having some means to do damage off your toughness, but it’s not that big a deal, However, it makes no sense that Toughness does not already reduce condition damage, since Toughness is supposed to make you hardier, and this harder to actually hurt, so it should function as a flat across the board damage reduction from all sources.

Fjaeldmark.9043:

On topic, toughness is a defensive stat it shouldn’t really give offensive bonuses. If retaliation is to scale off something other than power it should be the strength of the incoming hit. At present retaliation does very little to slow attacking enemies (like PvE ones). Making large hits cause larger retaliation hits would make it useful against more types of opponent.

One of the better suggestions on the topic. It’d make power-burst damage more cautious in PvP and the counter damage somewhat hilarious against PvE bosses, which are known for doing too much damage anyway.
Not saying the change is necessary.

There’s a few arguments one could make on coding Retaliation to a different stat. Toughness isn’t one of them. It’s already by far the best defense stat. The use of Power is understandable for the concept of a boon that inflicts counter hits.
Condition Damage might be considered an appropriate swap, since it does damage through Toughness like conditions do.
If anything needs more love, it’s Healing Power. (Love, or to be obliterated and all healing skills normalized…) Unfortunately, with Concentration being a thing now, we can’t even have Healing Power swap to Boon Power and make it more useful overall, but that’s not for this thread.

STIHL.2489:

I am kinda benign on if Retaliation should work of toughness. It would be novel to having some means to do damage off your toughness, but it’s not that big a deal, However, it makes no sense that Toughness does not already reduce condition damage, since Toughness is supposed to make you hardier, and this harder to actually hurt, so it should function as a flat across the board damage reduction from all sources.

Vitality makes characters hardier, and affects both direct and condition damage. Toughness feeds into the Armor stat, not hit points (Health). It does make sense that Toughness not affect condition damage. How would armor stop one from bleeding, stop the effects of poison, stop the effects of mental influence, etc.?

This is not the first game where hardiness is separate from damage resistance. In PNP D&D, Constitution provides more Hit Points, and is thus the equivalent of Vitality. Constitution has no effect on Armor Class, the equivalent of GW2’s Armor stat.

It’s obvious that ANet’s aim is to provide two different means to build for damage delivery. Thus, from a game design standpoint, it makes sense to build different ways to mitigate those two damage types. There are existing counters to condition damage. Making Toughness a catch-all damage reducer would reduce the need to make build choices.

STIHL.2489:

I am kinda benign on if Retaliation should work of toughness. It would be novel to having some means to do damage off your toughness, but it’s not that big a deal, However, it makes no sense that Toughness does not already reduce condition damage, since Toughness is supposed to make you hardier, and this harder to actually hurt, so it should function as a flat across the board damage reduction from all sources.

And Vitality becomes worthless for any purpose other than negating unavoidable one shot attacks. And since there are no unavoidable one shot attacks, no one would ever use vitality for anything, ever, becuase toughness would be that much more superior.

Once again, toughness is working perfectly fine the way it is.

There are actually several unblockable skills that hit hard or can me made to be unblockable.

Aeolus.3615:

There are actually several unblockable skills that hit hard or can me made to be unblockable.

I meant in PvE. I should have been more specific. My bad.

even so… some mobs even ignore aegis and stability XD, my bunker guard learnind this by the hard way.

me:“chill guys i can hold this im a guard”
1- pop up stability and aegis!
2 -gets KB and recked by a rolling mob……

:P

Tentonhammr.7849:

Unkillable bunker guardians

oh wow, that made me laugh.

I understand people dont like that a defensive stat like toughness doesnt boost a “offensive” stat like retaliation, but if u really think of it, it actually makes sense!

If u build with high toughness u will NEVER have high or higher damage then full zerk. If you build full toughness u wont be able to kill anything fast or faster then zerk.
it makes sense right?

Its the reason why retaliation damage is so low atm. Make it too strong and power builds really become OP with retaliation damage. If u let it scale of toughness you, have poor retal damage if build like a zerker. But if u build like a tank then you get high damage from retaliation, meaning u wont be able to kill as fast as a zerker, cause your damage is way less then a full zerker. This means u wont be a danger to anything or anyone cause u hit like a noodle. U will be rather annoying like a fly buzzing around your head.

BUT

you will be come a danger when people attack you without thinking. If you put retaliation buff on you and people go full out on a rapid fire, for instance, then they get punished for NOT watching your boons.

This goes beyond one class, with just letting retaliation damage, scale of toughness. Its the only “offensive” boon that should scale from it tbh. It wont be overpowered one bit, it will open up a lot of new builds, pve and pvp!!!

For pve it will mean u can build like a tank and play like a tank, it supports ANET vision of “play it your way”

Oh and if a Dev can react on the topic i would be very happy, thanks for all the reply’s all!

Tentonhammr.7849:

STIHL.2489:

I am kinda benign on if Retaliation should work of toughness. It would be novel to having some means to do damage off your toughness, but it’s not that big a deal, However, it makes no sense that Toughness does not already reduce condition damage, since Toughness is supposed to make you hardier, and this harder to actually hurt, so it should function as a flat across the board damage reduction from all sources.

And Vitality becomes worthless for any purpose other than negating unavoidable one shot attacks. And since there are no unavoidable one shot attacks, no one would ever use vitality for anything, ever, becuase toughness would be that much more superior.

Once again, toughness is working perfectly fine the way it is.

What are you talking about? You make it sound like you need to use one of the other, you can use them together, they are both designed to keep you alive, and if Toughness was a direct damage reduction, they would complement each other.

Complementary Skills.. there is an idea!