Let's Start the Karma DR Dialogue
You guys are seriously still whining? The answer Jon Peters gave is a legitimate answer. It takes weeks, even MONTHS to develop a game of this scale. This isn’t just a few numbers that they can magically tweak and everything is resolved.
Why would ArenaNet concentrate full-time on polishing the DR system when they have bigger fish to fry? They have literally, so much to do that there isn’t time to work on the DR system everyday.
Everyone needs to understand that the development of an MMO takes time. If you don’t like it, LEAVE. If you’ve played over 40+ hours of this game then you’ve gotten your $60 worth. Wait for patches… you’re not paying a subscription fee. If the game has been released for six months and literally nothing has changed, then maybe you have a reason to whine.
You miss the point entirely…
It doesn’t take MONTHS or even WEEKS to see data posted and give a response. Even if it is a simple response as they will look into the issue and that they put in a system and that they appreciate the feedback.
They stayed silent they were not transparent like they were with the Dungeon System. Go over there and look at how they communicated. Go over there and see how they handled it properly.
Jon Peters and team handled this as poorly as one can handle it. They kept silent choosing to ignore the issue.
This response simply confirmed they choose to ignore it and that they did put it in behind the scenes and that they will “Look to get it fixed in the next few weeks”.
Seeing their track record on “fixing” dungeon rewards with their DR there. Fixing Dynamic Events and Skill Points being borked. When their first fix comes in we can highly doubt it will actually “fix” the system. Especially considering they have given ZERO information on how it kicks in (again unlike the dungeon system) and how this even helps affect Botters considering Karma cannot be used in any benefit except self.
You know what was fun? The first two weeks of Guild Wars 2. I didn’t realize this game would turn into Diablo 3 so quickly.
You guys are seriously still whining? The answer Jon Peters gave is a legitimate answer. It takes weeks, even MONTHS to develop a game of this scale. This isn’t just a few numbers that they can magically tweak and everything is resolved.
Why would ArenaNet concentrate full-time on polishing the DR system when they have bigger fish to fry? They have literally, so much to do that there isn’t time to work on the DR system everyday.
Everyone needs to understand that the development of an MMO takes time. If you don’t like it, LEAVE. If you’ve played over 40+ hours of this game then you’ve gotten your $60 worth. Wait for patches… you’re not paying a subscription fee. If the game has been released for six months and literally nothing has changed, then maybe you have a reason to whine.
You miss the point entirely…
It doesn’t take MONTHS or even WEEKS to see data posted and give a response. Even if it is a simple response as they will look into the issue and that they put in a system and that they appreciate the feedback.
They stayed silent they were not transparent like they were with the Dungeon System. Go over there and look at how they communicated. Go over there and see how they handled it properly.
Jon Peters and team handled this as poorly as one can handle it. They kept silent choosing to ignore the issue.
This response simply confirmed they choose to ignore it and that they did put it in behind the scenes and that they will “Look to get it fixed in the next few weeks”.
Seeing their track record on “fixing” dungeon rewards with their DR there. Fixing Dynamic Events and Skill Points being borked. When their first fix comes in we can highly doubt it will actually “fix” the system. Especially considering they have given ZERO information on how it kicks in (again unlike the dungeon system) and how this even helps affect Botters considering Karma cannot be used in any benefit except self.
Drunken Mad King: do you seriously think it takes a day to fix game issues and bugs? Do you think a developer can create patches every single day of an MMO’s lifetime? It takes weeks, maybe months to collect enough data to populate a database and analyze it… It takes time to know how players have adapted to the game, and understand what needs to be done to resolve the problem.
These aren’t fixes that you can just code in at a moment’s notice. A video game is made of millions of lines of code, thousands of assets, etc. You wouldn’t even imagine the complexity of a project of this size. There is a workflow, and if you don’t like it maybe MMOs aren’t the thing for you.
Edit: ArenaNet’s track record extends to 2005 with Guild Wars. You should go take a look at their patches in the past and then tell me if they aren’t on top of fixing their games.
(edited by dimgl.4786)
I’m happy with Jon Peters reply. As long as I can do what I want while playing normally and not get diminishing returns, I’m happy.
I understand that it will take time to fix it, but at least they acknowledged that the thresholds are too low, that’s all I asked for.
Ok for starters people have reason to be upset, there are no “bigger fish” to fry since this DR implemented as a means to combot the bot issue in the game, and as a result they screwed up the regular experience of the average player as well. As such they could easily disable the DR but they choose not to for fear of the effects of the economy. It wouldn’t take WEEKS or MONTHS, its a simple matter of adjusting the games code and completely deleted the DR system from the game or reseting it back to the pre-patch.
The recent patches have shown that Arenanet has no concept of getting their priorities straight. Look at the necromancer patch updates. With a class so broken with bugs and what not at the moment, part of their ‘fixes’ for the class involves questionable ‘balance’ updates, to skills that weren’t even close to groundbreaking or heavily affecting the PvP experience. Hey Jon, I’d take a working Plague Signet over a Blood is Power change any day of the week, even if you add 100 might to the skill.
“We just don’t want players to grind in GW2” – C. Johanson
“it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun, rather than having fun”
Guild missions say otherwise.
“it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun, rather than having fun”
Guild missions say otherwise.
THIS WOULDN"T NEED A PATCH, its only a matter of turning off the DR or reseting back to pre patch..
Forget what I posted earlier, anything less than Diminishing rewards haveing ZERO effect on me in the course of normal game play will be totally unacceptable. I don’t care how it affects bots. I am not a bot.
I don’t care how it affects exploiters either. But lets make one thing totally clear, If I chose to repeat an event (actually do the event) I should see zero effect from DR. That is not exploiting. Same goes for farming up materials. That also is not exploiting that is called playing the game.
The line has been drawn in the sand. DR is unacceptable. If I ever decide to play agian, I better not ever see it. (I uninstalled the game) You’d be fortunate if I ever returned.
Frankly an apology for fudging up like you guys did wouldn’t hurt either!
(edited by SHM.7628)
The entitlement in this thread is beyond comprehension… This truly is the “kitten” generation hehe
“FIX IT NOW or I will leave the game and you and your game will be in ruins!! lol”
It’s quite unbelievable.
Other games have made gamers feel entitled. Most Guild Wars fans have waited since 2007 for this game to come out. A few months wait to receive new, exciting patches is not much in comparison.
The entitlement in this thread is beyond comprehension… This truly is the “kitten” generation hehe
“FIX IT NOW or I will leave the game and you and your game will be in ruins!! lol”
It’s quite unbelievable.Other games have made gamers feel entitled. Most Guild Wars fans have waited since 2007 for this game to come out. A few months wait to receive new, exciting patches is not much in comparison.
Oh don’t get me wrong, it’s quite healthy to whine about a game, hell I’ve been doing enough of it down on the elementalists forum… and kitten do I agree the DR is somewhat harsh atm by what people are saying…
It’s just the completely pathetic way that alot of people in this thread are complaining about it that is giving me enough lulz to be here and troll.
It’s just completely unbelievable.
You guys are seriously still whining? The answer Jon Peters gave is a legitimate answer.
Its an answer, it demonstrates that their aims are legitimate. It doesn’t answer the issues that people have raised over the last couple of weeks however, namely:
1. the solution does nothing to stop botters despite it being their aim and does appear to affect legitimate farmers. It seems to be a brute force approach to an issue that actually requires more delicacy.
2. The complete lack of transparency from anet over this and other issues.
3. The lack of testing before releasing.
Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Forget what I posted earlier, anything less than Diminishing rewards haveing ZERO effect on me in the course of normal game play will be totally unacceptable to me. I don’t care how it affects bots.
I don’t care how it affects exploiters either. But lets make one thing totally clear, If I chose to repeat an event (actually do the event) I should see zero effect from DR. That is not exploiting. That is called playing the game.
The line has been drawn in the sand. DR is unacceptable. If I ever decide to play agian, I better not ever see it. (I uninstalled the game) You’d be fortunate if I ever returned.
lol Well now that you drew the line…. why didn’t you say it sooner?
Please don’t leave the game, we are so fortunate to have you around… we (the entire GW2 playerbase, and Anet) would be really upset if you left! /facepalm
I already left, and lots of others have too. Why do you think 2 weeks later we finally got a reply on this? Because They screwed up and didn’t expect the backlash it caused. It went over like a lead balloon. Probably hurt the cash shop too.
I know you were being sarcastic, and that’s fine. Still they should know where the players stand. ( I really think they do now) Besides, You know you’d miss me if I left. why not just admit it? :P
You guys are seriously still whining? The answer Jon Peters gave is a legitimate answer.
Its an answer, it demonstrates that their aims are legitimate. It doesn’t answer the issues that people have raised over the last couple of weeks however, namely:
1. the solution does nothing to stop botters despite it being their aim and does appear to affect legitimate farmers. It seems to be a brute force approach to an issue that actually requires more delicacy.
2. The complete lack of transparency from anet over this and other issues.
3. The lack of testing before releasing.
3 aggravates me to no end.
“We just don’t want players to grind in GW2” – C. Johanson
“it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun, rather than having fun”
Guild missions say otherwise.
“it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun, rather than having fun”
Guild missions say otherwise.
You guys are seriously still whining? The answer Jon Peters gave is a legitimate answer. It takes weeks, even MONTHS to develop a game of this scale. This isn’t just a few numbers that they can magically tweak and everything is resolved.
Why would ArenaNet concentrate full-time on polishing the DR system when they have bigger fish to fry? They have literally, so much to do that there isn’t time to work on the DR system everyday.
Everyone needs to understand that the development of an MMO takes time. If you don’t like it, LEAVE. If you’ve played over 40+ hours of this game then you’ve gotten your $60 worth. Wait for patches… you’re not paying a subscription fee. If the game has been released for six months and literally nothing has changed, then maybe you have a reason to whine.
You miss the point entirely…
It doesn’t take MONTHS or even WEEKS to see data posted and give a response. Even if it is a simple response as they will look into the issue and that they put in a system and that they appreciate the feedback.
They stayed silent they were not transparent like they were with the Dungeon System. Go over there and look at how they communicated. Go over there and see how they handled it properly.
Jon Peters and team handled this as poorly as one can handle it. They kept silent choosing to ignore the issue.
This response simply confirmed they choose to ignore it and that they did put it in behind the scenes and that they will “Look to get it fixed in the next few weeks”.
Seeing their track record on “fixing” dungeon rewards with their DR there. Fixing Dynamic Events and Skill Points being borked. When their first fix comes in we can highly doubt it will actually “fix” the system. Especially considering they have given ZERO information on how it kicks in (again unlike the dungeon system) and how this even helps affect Botters considering Karma cannot be used in any benefit except self.
Drunken Mad King: do you seriously think it takes a day to fix game issues and bugs? Do you think a developer can create patches every single day of an MMO’s lifetime? It takes weeks, maybe months to collect enough data to populate a database and analyze it… It takes time to know how players have adapted to the game, and understand what needs to be done to resolve the problem.
These aren’t fixes that you can just code in at a moment’s notice. A video game is made of millions of lines of code, thousands of assets, etc. You wouldn’t even imagine the complexity of a project of this size. There is a workflow, and if you don’t like it maybe MMOs aren’t the thing for you.
Edit: ArenaNet’s track record extends to 2005 with Guild Wars. You should go take a look at their patches in the past and then tell me if they aren’t on top of fixing their games.
Reading comprehension not your strong point eh? I said it doesn’t take Weeks or days to see the data we were presenting and RESPOND….
See just like I did here. I responded and it took minutes. I am not saying that they had to do it in days… but weeks?
I know their track record on GW1 and I played GW1, but look at the track record on the game we are actually playing. GW1 was an Apple and GW2 is an Orange two different types of games with different levels of programming and trust me on this one when they “fix” something have you really seen it fixed? There are skill points still broken even after the “miricle” fix they claimed on them. This is the second “fix” on them. My point is not to slam them but simply to state that if they start working on this “fix” to the DR in a few weeks it could be month or longer before it is truly “fixed”.
I was not minimizing the programming it’s a tough job as evidenced by their efforts to keep certain things running. That is my point to the issue of not taking a jump on this weeks ago when even giving a response so that we could get info to them to see where the fix even needs to occur.
(edited by Drunken Mad King.8193)
Forget what I posted earlier, anything less than Diminishing rewards haveing ZERO effect on me in the course of normal game play will be totally unacceptable to me. I don’t care how it affects bots.
I don’t care how it affects exploiters either. But lets make one thing totally clear, If I chose to repeat an event (actually do the event) I should see zero effect from DR. That is not exploiting. That is called playing the game.
The line has been drawn in the sand. DR is unacceptable. If I ever decide to play agian, I better not ever see it. (I uninstalled the game) You’d be fortunate if I ever returned.
lol Well now that you drew the line…. why didn’t you say it sooner?
Please don’t leave the game, we are so fortunate to have you around… we (the entire GW2 playerbase, and Anet) would be really upset if you left! /facepalm
I already left, and lots of others have too. Why do you think 2 weeks later we finally got a reply on this? Because They screwed up and didn’t expect the backlash it caused. It went over like a lead balloon. Probably hurt the cash shop too.
I know you were being sarcastic, and that’s fine. Still they should know where the players stand. ( I really think they do now) Besides, You know you’d miss me if I left. why not just admit it? :P
Guys, seriously. You’re ridiculous. I’m in the middle of a huge event and there are tons of people in game. Just because some people leave doesn’t mean everyone will as well. People like you always leave, and that’s okay.
The reason the backlash was so strong is because of the impatience in the community. Everyone feels so entitled now that ArenaNet has kept constant communication with its fans. MMOs take ages to develop. Hell, I’ve left and come back to WoW tons of times and I love that game to pieces. Same with Guild Wars, it’s my favorite online game.
So really, quit being so dire… We won’t miss you. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
You guys are seriously still whining? The answer Jon Peters gave is a legitimate answer. It takes weeks, even MONTHS to develop a game of this scale. This isn’t just a few numbers that they can magically tweak and everything is resolved.
Why would ArenaNet concentrate full-time on polishing the DR system when they have bigger fish to fry? They have literally, so much to do that there isn’t time to work on the DR system everyday.
Everyone needs to understand that the development of an MMO takes time. If you don’t like it, LEAVE. If you’ve played over 40+ hours of this game then you’ve gotten your $60 worth. Wait for patches… you’re not paying a subscription fee. If the game has been released for six months and literally nothing has changed, then maybe you have a reason to whine.
You miss the point entirely…
It doesn’t take MONTHS or even WEEKS to see data posted and give a response. Even if it is a simple response as they will look into the issue and that they put in a system and that they appreciate the feedback.
They stayed silent they were not transparent like they were with the Dungeon System. Go over there and look at how they communicated. Go over there and see how they handled it properly.
Jon Peters and team handled this as poorly as one can handle it. They kept silent choosing to ignore the issue.
This response simply confirmed they choose to ignore it and that they did put it in behind the scenes and that they will “Look to get it fixed in the next few weeks”.
Seeing their track record on “fixing” dungeon rewards with their DR there. Fixing Dynamic Events and Skill Points being borked. When their first fix comes in we can highly doubt it will actually “fix” the system. Especially considering they have given ZERO information on how it kicks in (again unlike the dungeon system) and how this even helps affect Botters considering Karma cannot be used in any benefit except self.
Drunken Mad King: do you seriously think it takes a day to fix game issues and bugs? Do you think a developer can create patches every single day of an MMO’s lifetime? It takes weeks, maybe months to collect enough data to populate a database and analyze it… It takes time to know how players have adapted to the game, and understand what needs to be done to resolve the problem.
These aren’t fixes that you can just code in at a moment’s notice. A video game is made of millions of lines of code, thousands of assets, etc. You wouldn’t even imagine the complexity of a project of this size. There is a workflow, and if you don’t like it maybe MMOs aren’t the thing for you.
Edit: ArenaNet’s track record extends to 2005 with Guild Wars. You should go take a look at their patches in the past and then tell me if they aren’t on top of fixing their games.
Reading comprehension not your strong point eh? I said it doesn’t take Weeks or days to see the data we were presenting and RESPOND….
See just like I did here. I responded and it took minutes. I am not saying that they had to do it in days… but weeks?
You apparently don’t know much about public relations.
You also probably don’t realize the big fuss about the DR system has only been in the wild for about 48 hours………..
THIS WOULDN"T NEED A PATCH, its only a matter of turning off the DR or reseting back to pre patch..
Correct. And the fact that Jon has NOT chosen that option, despite it being available, is worth serious consideration.
Do you want your entertainment to be changed at any point in the future, not for the better, or for the goal of fun for customers, but negatively affecting all players at the expense of a few?
Every customer should think long and hard about how this was handled, and specifically the decision Jon made given a very large number of better alternatives. All of which have been suggested publicly, both before and after the change. The existing DR system should NEVER have been pushed onto the production servers. Never. Ever. Ever.
You know what was fun? The first two weeks of Guild Wars 2. I didn’t realize this game would turn into Diablo 3 so quickly.
Yeah I agree, Guild Wars 2 for the first two weeks was great. After the patch that turned it into Diminishing Returns Wars 2, not even a little bit.
Okay, I’m done. Apparently, the entitlement is strong with this thread. Everyone is suddenly game designers, experts of business strategy and economics majors.
Goodbye.
Obvious fanbois and wannabe know-it-alls are obvious.
Thankfully they are just a minority in this thread.OT: Sorry, Mr. Peters; I’m not buying it. That you sneakily slipped this Police State “safety net” in, that you have remained silent for so long when all we needed was a simple explanation, and that your brilliant “safety net” has quite obviously nothing to do with being an anti-botters decision simply killed Anet’s credibility for me. I’m sure you perfectly understand what I mean.
This is fishy. It stinks. So I’m not buying it.
Oh wait… I have already bought “it”.
what’s funny is that YOU are the one who think he knows how Arenanet should work and how to deal with bots.
I wonder who I should trust? The 15 years old kid who’s mad he cannot bot or people who’ve been making games for longer than you’ve been living?
Jon, ANet has always been too paranoid about things like this. I would much rather have a “ruined” economy where everything is dirt cheap and I’m free to enjoy the game, rather than having to “bump” into safety nets all the time. Just remove it. It’s not a big deal. You’re ruining the game for 95% of your players just because you don’t want the other 5% to maybe do something that you might not like.
Actually, that’s the exact opposite of what would happen. When economies get ruined through some exploit leading to a rapid injection of currency, everything gets very expensive, not cheap. The term “MUDflation” refers to the same currency devaluation (and thus inflation of prices) that exists in real life.
Also, it isn’t a matter of some people maybe doing something they might not like, this phenomenon happens in basically every MMO to date (and the MUDs that preceded them). The problem is that players who have limited time or pick up the game at a later date find they can’t keep themselves adequately stocked with equipment appropriate to their level because the prices have risen to the point that it basically requires a fully-leveled character to subsidize them.
Well I haven’t been making games for 15 years, but I have been working in QA for 3 years, and from what I understand arena net didn’t have the resources available for widescale testing, I understand as this is an MMO it would need an extremely large QA base. However throwing out quick fixes that have not been properly tested is never a good idea….still its amazing that they are able to keep up the pace with patches.
As long as they know the threshold is simply too harsh to continue this way, our work is done here. Let’s hope the fine tuning comes soon.
Wow…
I was called a “15 year old kid”, one “who’s mad he cannot bot”.
Apparently by someone my age, too.
I thought I was one of many on here trying to communicate my opinion and feelings on this matter.
Thank you for clearing that up for me. Really, thank you; I’m no longer on the wrong side of 30, yay !
(edited by Adorable Kinkajou.4370)
Permalink
dimgl.4786
Drunken Mad King.8193:
dimgl.4786:
Drunken Mad King: do you seriously think it takes a day to fix game issues and bugs? Do you think a developer can create patches every single day of an MMO’s lifetime? It takes weeks, maybe months to collect enough data to populate a database and analyze it… It takes time to know how players have adapted to the game, and understand what needs to be done to resolve the problem.
These aren’t fixes that you can just code in at a moment’s notice. A video game is made of millions of lines of code, thousands of assets, etc. You wouldn’t even imagine the complexity of a project of this size. There is a workflow, and if you don’t like it maybe MMOs aren’t the thing for you.
Edit: ArenaNet’s track record extends to 2005 with Guild Wars. You should go take a look at their patches in the past and then tell me if they aren’t on top of fixing their games.
Reading comprehension not your strong point eh? I said it doesn’t take Weeks or days to see the data we were presenting and RESPOND….
See just like I did here. I responded and it took minutes. I am not saying that they had to do it in days… but weeks?
You apparently don’t know much about public relations.
You also probably don’t realize the big fuss about the DR system has only been in the wild for about 48 hours………..
Actually I do know a good amount about it.
The fuss about the DR system has been in the wild for weeks. Go look at all the posts in the Dynamic Events Forum.
We have been reporting about the issues for weeks and asking for a response for weeks.
“Looking at the numbers this morning, we believe some of the threshold systems are just too harsh empirically and we’ll be adjusting those systems within the next few weeks to ensure that fewer legitimate players are being impacted.” – JonPeters
The troubling thing about this is “fewer legitimate players”. This needs to be “NO legitimate players at any time for doing anything legitimately”.
Anything else, and you will be pinpointing particular players, which should be unacceptable to everyone. Furthermore, I would say that at the very least the DR of event rewards should be REMOVED. Bots don’t need karma, and I would prefer if it were all removed, frankly.
I do understand that Anet needs time with this…but they still need to make the right moves here. Fix the bugs/parameters of DR ASAP…or just simply remove it. It needs to be a priority at this point.
Can we do something like Captcha or something in game to refresh our DR system while curbing the bots?
I have to agree, the sense of entitlement from some of the players here is ridiculous. God forbid your farming should be hindered for a mere two weeks while the developers are trying to fix other important issues in the game. Is that two weeks of your subscription fee you’ve been cheated of? If you’re hitting the DR’s, go vent your frustration in PvP or something, where you won’t have to worry about it.
And yeah, it’s frustrating that there are bugs. But some people here seem to have lost all perspective of the issue. The game’s a little more than a month old, and easily the most massive of the ones I know of that have released recently. It’s using lots of mechanics that are new on the MMO scene, so yeah, you should have gone in expecting plenty of bugs. If not, you were naive, and if you’re thinking of dropping the game over an issue like this, all I can do is wish you the best of luck trying to find another MMO. See if Blizzard can satisfy your urges for decent communication and customer service, maybe. Their forums are lovely, I assure you. Or if GW2 has put you off MMO’s, I hear that Diablo 3 has an awesome endgame, so maybe you could try that for something fresh and see how you like it.
It still just baffles me that people expected this game to be perfect and without serious issues on release. Most MMO’s gain their polish after months or years of trial and error, and I don’t see why GW2, regardless of its design goals, should be treated any differently.
Maybe I just always feel the need to throw some levity into the discussion grinder, but I got to thinking about something as I proceeded to roll my Charr warrior like a big, furry snow-plow through the Orr zones.
Those zones will regularly stack an entire city block of risen into a space roughly equivalent to an average New York City studio apartment with a respawn rate that would make any Asian grinder MMO jealous (but hey, at least the gold farmers will feel at home, amirite?). It’s not that I’m just itching to kill hundreds of slobbering, foul-smelling, hammer-wielding knock-down stun machines, but I can’t exactly ignore them either. Believe me, I’ve tried. Add to this the loot and karma DR from killing too many mobs in a certain space of time.
So, let me get this straight: Anet cranks respawn rate up through the roof to the point where if one were to stop and actually admire the scenery they’re running past, the unwashed hordes would immediately chew their face off AND THEN you also put a DR system that kicks in when a player kills too many monsters. I think I understand what’s going on here.
Anet is trolling the player-base. I mean it, this has to be some sort of practical joke. The respawn rate in those zones (in all zones, really, to an extent) made me actually start laughing, it was just that ridiculous. The risen shake and wobble around like hyper-active kindergarteners in clown car sized packs slamming their hammers and chain-stuns/immobilizes, and meanwhile I find myself thinking that this isn’t the game I started playing a month and change ago. The scenery is still beautiful, the world is still compelling, and the game still feels remarkable. Except for this one puzzling, unavoidable aspect.
So that’s what I think: the devs are playing a big joke on all of us. The only other explanation would be gross incompetence and/or not caring about whether the player-base is actually having a good time.
I’m going to choose to believe this is just a joke, and will be “adjusted” shortly.
Just felt like you was throttling us to much and forcing us to play at slower pace and skip events to avoid the DR.
Also the fact you sell karma boosters for real money then implemented the DR system so you hit it before the karma booster wore off shows you didn’t think out what you was doing and just rushed it out which leaves a bad taste in the players mouth.
I think this thread is missing a few people swearing up and down that ANET put in DRs because ANET didnt want people farming/grinding etc. When I saw that Red post I couldnt help but giggle.
Glad we finally got a reply after 2 weeks. Still not coming back to play until its fully rectified.
I have been playing this game since the early release and I have enjoyed every moment of it. I didn’t really do any dungeons, any WvW, or any Dynamic Events at first, I was too busy enjoying the rest of the content. I slowly leveled to 80 and did not rush as this was such an amazing game. Now I get to level 80 and I find out that I can’t get dungeon tokens as fast as everyone else did, I can’t get karma as fast as everyone else did, I can’t get fine crafting materials as fast as everyone else did, and I can’t earn gold as fast as everyone else did. I kind of feel cheated.
There is no punishment to those that actually exploited and ruined the market and to top it all off the market is still corrupt because the exploiters already made their lifetime Gold/Karma/Dungeon Tokens so they are not effected at all by any of this. Not to mention putting DR on Karma is 100% pointless as all Karma items can not be sold on the TP. What possible balance reason do you legitimatly have to justify this?
This entire DR system, Karma included, makes me sick. I can no longer recomend this game to anyone because now in addition to having little endgame (in terms of other traditional mmos), it also is no longer fun to play because I can’t spend the time I want to accomplish what I want. I now have to stop playing or have a completely negative experience if I play for long durations of time. This is no longer Guild Wars 2.
Anet is obviously bent on using this extremely flawed player punishing system and until they drop it(preferred) or get it right to where “no legit player” is punished i am completely bent on not using the CS..
Yes anet players can retaliate for un-fun gaming experiences caused by this ridiculous and poor decision to stick by a completely flawed/bugged/broken/unfair system.
Its anets reputation as a competent and trustworthy game maker on the line so do what you will with it..
This issue is getting popular on major gaming forums..
…getting 10-12k karma per hour before DR…
I’m not even doing that much and never have that’s why people’s accusations that people hitting DR are cheesing events kitten me off. I’ve posted my own screenshots clearly showing I earn about 3500 karma per hour and DR hits.
My screens again: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10429631/timerbline%20Falls%20screenshots.zip
Here’s the real problem
Anet has said nothing about this decision or the issues or any issues related to diminishing returns (except dungeons). It’s complete silence when it’s obvious something very wrong is happening with regular play!
No, “working as intended”, “there’s a bug”, nothing.
Is this intended?
Is it working correctly?
Where’s our threshold?
Are we supposed to figure this out by ourselves?
Why is it so inconsistent? -
Why are some people getting hit by DR after 10,000+ karma p/hr while others (like myself) are getting hit at 3500+ p/hr?
Truth be known this PPS (player punishment system) is probably responsible for half or more of whats broke in this game..
I love this game and its design but this DR system violates everything the game stood for..
There has to be a better option available to deal with exploiters and bots anet needs to drop this DR system like the bad idea it is and seek a technique that takes out the bots and exploiters while letting the players play without having to worry about getting punished for killing 50 incoming mobs while trying to get from one point to another..
Mr. Peters your 2 cents worth means very little to those that regularly get punished for playing as we see your DR system as a failure you wont let go of..
Glad we got a response finally!
Sad that it wont be fixed for upto 3 weeks :S
Glad we got a response finally!
Sad that it wont be fixed for upto 3 weeks :S
Who said 3 weeks?
Lol at fanboys calling other entitled.
I am VERY much entitled to the game i PAID for. They, Anet, named their price…I agreed with the price based of off beta and their so called manifesto. Or are you suggesting that the game is worth much more than what i paid for? It could very well be…but Anet SPECIFICALLY asked ME, the consumer, to pay that price. I do not see what is so difficult to understand. In fact, believe it or not….a lot of us earn our own money….not just get it from their moms. We know how difficult it is to earn money. If we pay for something, it very well better be what they advertise it to be. Its even worst if they suddenly decide to change it midway to punish you for playing a game you bought.
/rant.
Not to mention that, think about it, the only way for Anet to maintain your precious game……..wait for it……wait for it…..is to buy gems at the store. I bought 40 bucks worth of gems the first week this game has been out. It is MUCH more than the usual 15 dollar a month subscription fee other games usually ask for. I will not spend another dime until Anet fixes this whole debacle.
I like the game, I can wait for bug fixes, I can wait for more content via expansion packs or updates, but punish me for playing the game I paid for ($100 so far)…not gonna happen. When this thing is fixed, and i hope is sooner that later, i better not even be able to smell the system while playing.
Can someone clarify EXACTLY what the problem is? I just see people saying they get DR and how they hate it. Yet didn’t Anet say it was implemented to stop players from abusing game mechanics? I guess I just have yet to see anyone clarify exactly what they are dong to get DRs. I’ve yet to see DRs once and I’ve been playing since early access. If the system is to stop abusing game mechanics, then why is this so bad? From a rationale standpoint I just do not understand the outcry.
If someone could clarify what exactly they are doing when they get DRs it would be greatly appreciated.
Here is exactly what i do to get item DR. I kill 50-100 mobs in Cursed Shore
Its the only level 80 zone in the game so i play there since Im 80. You can easily have well over 50s kill just running 2 events.
This is not some sort of secret – its what happens to any competent player who decides to do some PVE at level 80.
Initially we have to rely on smaller data sets, instinct and some guesswork to find the correct cutoff. What this means is that some players are going to bump into the edges of these systems for a while as we get them sorted out. Please bear with us while we gather more data and lower the safety net until it’s only providing critical economy protection. Looking at the numbers this morning, we believe some of the threshold systems are just too harsh empirically and we’ll be adjusting those systems within the next few weeks to ensure that fewer legitimate players are being impacted.
I hope this helps to explain why a game like this needs systems such as this to protect its economy. I also hope it gives some insight into our philosophy about botters (BAD) and exploiters (BAD) vs. farmers (GOOD). Thanks for your support and we will see you in game.
Jon
Jon,
I have been very active opponent of the DR system since I’ve hit DR for the last couple weeks. My post history is full of it.
This was all I wanted to hear. Just a confirmation of if it’s fully intentional or a bug or whatnot. I’m reasonable and fully willing to play through this as you guys look into it and work through what may or may not be working in the system.
Thanks you for the response and clarification. I’m sure for some, it won’t be enough but for myself, I feel a lot more settled either way just by knowing Anet’s stance on it.
I have no much plan for spending Karma except buying salvage kit when the armorsmith sold them in Karma.
I seldom looked at the Karma value when the gold medal jumped out for completing DE. I haven’t notice the latest Karma DR because I only logged in for 2~4 DEs in Curse Shore recently. However I could feel the dropped item quantity DR pretty soon even I just do 4 DEs.
The man behind bot (no matter big gold seller or personal) might not notice the karma reduce as soon as legit players since he is not playing. So when the mechanism is to eliminate motive of botting, the real ones suffered are human players who expect the rewards.
From what I observed, the east of Shelter’s Gate and the gate of Penitent is full of increasing bots everyday in Black Gate server. I have to fight hard to hit enough HP percentage to get loot. These bots are annoying as hell. I only see these areas without bots within a few hours after major patch. It’s a lot fun. Usually my queue for entering the WvWvW to hit some doors (I meant players) is ready, so I just suspect the bots hit too hard for the third or fourth DE so I don’t get much rare loot wearing full Magic Find gear.
The only problem is “the rate of elimination of bots through the DR mechanism or permanent ban is slower than the rate DR punishment occurring to real human players who are experiencing the game and feeling the punishment within the very first minutes”.
You guys should really all take one day off and explore the new modified world you create. Enjoying 5~6 hours with real game playing AT LEVEL 80 and see what happened from the view of HUMAN player.
If this system is so complicated that it takes weeks to tune…. You know what? Programmers make init files. We have ways of adjusting things, often on the fly or close to it. When we make changes, we have stat logs that monitor the changes. You know why I know? Because I’ve been a programmer for 9 years, working on things less complicated than this, and even in my line of work it would be unthinkable not to do so.
This could be changed tomorrow when you wake up, but it’s likely the bureaucracy within the company won’t let that programmer actually make the adjustment.
And the low hanging fruit – the bots that I and half the zone have reported, every day, for 12 days running? Nothing. kittenit. Not only are you screwing me over, you’re ignoring the primary channel of communication.
i usually don’t come to official game forums, for the very reason i’d like to comment, and yes i understand the hypocrisy of that statement. I’ve said it before, this has been the single smoothest MMO launch i have ever seen (4-5). not only that, but i have NEVER seen a game developer comment on their own forums in such an honest and open way. You may not agree with what he said but that doesn’t make them wrong or idiots. They have priority’s, and this is where that one fell. i’m sure the DR were put in place as an emergency band-aid, and it functioned perfectly; buying them time to fix other problems while maintaining a semblance of a balanced economy. We all know kitten well how easy it would be to farm this game. by placing the DR into effect they essentially bought a delay, and they used it well. as this becomes an increasing problem they have amazingly solved other issue’s allowing them to deal with this. The bottom line here is, there are priorities, and farmers were not on top. Be grateful they managed to postpone the damage, rather than ignoring it outright like i know many companies do. Than also be grateful that they had the decency enough to actually address this demographic, with an honest and straightforward response.
Does anyone know whether or not the salvage kits are affected by DR when it comes to getting Glob of Ectoplasm?
I think many of you need to stop and step back for a moment to realize what just happened.
A game designer just laid out the intent of the system, the issues the system might have, and a promise to improve the system in a reasonable time frame.
I know gamers in general are a bit of an “instant gratification” crowd and want answers immediately, but also realize that in real life it takes time to acquire data, analyze existing programs, and develop a course of action to alleviate problems with the program.
We acquired the single most important piece of information from this Anet post: The system is NOT intended to punish farmers, but is intended to prevent exploitation. As a result, this is simply an issue of a program that is flagging too many false-positive cases, and I’m confident can be fixed in the future relatively simply such that it is no longer an issue.
Also realize that the time frame that he gave was probably quite liberal considering this is an issue that is discussed and administered by a group of individuals, and underestimating the time to fix this problem would only anger the consumers further.
V deathTouch V – Warrior
STD [Scarlet Gave Me Harpies]
Maguuma
STD [Scarlet Gave Me Harpies]
Maguuma
“Guild Wars 2 is a game about freedom.”
This is one of the most untrue statements about the game I’ve read.
Early on I was leveling my Guardian and armorsmithing at the same time. My goal with armorsmithing was to make my own gear. When I hit level 20 – I went to craft to make some armor, and was still in the level 15 range. I was woefully short of materials to craft up to be able to make the level 20 armor, so with no Trading Post available, I went to farm mats. This was in the first week – and I hit the loot DR pretty fast.
I ended up doing a completely different lowbie zone just to be able to get mats to match my level.
The next time this happened I again went to a zone I really had no intention of completing to collect mats (because I had already experienced the loot DR once).
Those instances both happened when the Trading Post was down 95% of the time – but they are two times that in no way did I have any freedom – due to your anti-farming code.
Skip forward to level 80 and I move to Orr. No hearts. Only Dynamic Events.
I wanted to do these Dynamic Events leading to the gods and such. I 100% completed these zones (took me 9 days due to 7 days camping the Bayt Fallahin skill point challenge being bugged). In the time I 100% completed these zones I never once saw a single meta event chain run to completion. Every single one of them was in a bugged state (or had been completed before I zoned to the zone and didn’t occur in the 2 to 3 hours I was there).
Last I was there – these events were all either still bugged or still very buggy and buggable. Do you guys think that if maybe more of your events worked that people wouldn’t farm the same ones over and over and over?
For example – since hitting 80 on that gaurdian I’ve started leveling my mesmer (51 now). I went to Gendarran Fields at level 26 (had done some WvW). I 100% completed the zone at level 33, having never seen an event (that wasn’t bugged) the entire time I was there.
This thread may have some info:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/events/I-had-no-idea-there-were-events-in-Gendarran-Fields
BTW, a LOT of things seem to work only for about 3 hours after server reset. Used to you guys would reset every night, so perhaps that hid the fact that so much stuff is broken. But now that you reset just once a week – at least on my Mesmer my 2nd time through some zones – they are devoid of events. I’m finding that I routinely enter a zone a level higher than the 1st heart, and finish the zone 100% 2 or even 3 levels below the level of the last heart. There’s no “filler” content happening – either due to bugs or due to not enough people to get larger events going.
So on my mesmer I supplement those missing levels with WvW. Except DR happens there (supply camp raiding on EB when everything’s well defended WILL get you DR in WvW).
So I’m like “WTF?”
As for dungeons – I get that you guys don’t want stuff entering the game too fast (to some degree), but perhaps you shouldn’t be designing an explorable path where the 2nd boss is the 5th mob you face? Just maybe do a little quality control on your designs and people won’t run 2/3 of a dungeon and then reset it and do it again and then you guys don’t have to take rewards away from everything but path completion?
It’s almost like you guys have never played an online game before and no one on your team is ever asking the question “how can someone abuse this?”.
continued
But instead of fixing all the broken stuff, you guys add more broken stuff that ONLY punishes players (either by design or by the fact that it’s bugged – how long was DR on dungeon runs bugged before you fixed it?).
Now, after another week of more complaints about DR do you only acknowledge there’s yet ANOTHER bug in a DR system and that you’ll be “adjusting those systems within the next few weeks”?
The evidence, in-game, is that DR is only affecting legit players negatively. In the seven days since https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/On-Botting-and-What-We-re-Doing-About-It was posted all I’ve seen is MORE bots in MORE zones.
From appearances, all you’re doing is encouraging bots – because you state that you are doing SOMETHING, and yet the result is more bots. And more punishments to legitimate players playing this game that’s “about freedom”.
If you had looked at the numbers this morning and determined that the threshold systems were just too lenient, I’d bet anything I own that you’d have hotfixed it tonight at midnight PST. But since the numbers show you that the player is at a disadvantage, you’ll be adjusting in the “next few weeks”.
Everything you guys have done with regards to your various Diminishing Returns systems just oozes “legitimate players are the least important to us” and “freedom in how people play is the last on our priority list”.
You could take an approach that encourages people to spread out, but instead your approach is discouragement from doing things in-game.
On my mesmer (tailor), I’m again far behind in mats for my character level – I’m 51 and can only make level 45 armor – I’d like to make 50 armor – but I need to FARM mats to do it – but farming mats means I will not get drops unless I go farm something else that I don’t actually need or want – so I am choosing simply to not play.
Like someone else said – there seems to have been a point around 2 weeks ago where this game went from being really fun to seemingly being run by the oppressive Diablo 3 team telling us how to have fun.
I will put off any further comments until you have had a chance to “fix” the DR then (hopefully very soon).
Oppressive? The dev post clearly stated that the DR system was NOT intended to be reached when farming naturally. The guy even took the time to clearly state that exploits/botters = BAD and farmers = GOOD. How much clearer could you POSSIBLY get that they are not intending for actual people naturally playing the game to get hit with DR? You may be impatient to get the actual fix from them, butyou really can’t take solace in the fact that they have clearly stated that they intend to fix the main gripe with DR? – normal people getting hit with DR while they farm legitimately.
To everyone complaining about it not being done instantly, they do need time to factor in data collect information THEN change what needs to be changed (of which we do not know yet what will be changed, the cap or whatever else) this could take some time to sort out, for then i guess we grit and bear this agonizing grind for karma etc. (IMO karma should not be effected by DR) Jon, Thank you for the response even if it seemed late i am sure you have a lot of other things to deal with. P.S Fix DR, Fix Broken Events, yeah i think that’s it.