Guild Wars 2

Cerise.9045:

If I do more than 1 event per 15 minutes I get my rewards cut out.

Only solution to this that I can think of is sitting in a camp all day doing the same event over and over and over and over and over until I am done working on my legendary.

Does that sound fun to anyone?

Very! Although, I wouldn’t even dream about doing a Legendary weapon. I was exausted from just doing my exotic armor, and I did 5/6 pices before DR started. I just can’t be bothered with a legendary. Now I am on an alt and leveling through, Its frustrating being hit with DR while I am doing hearts and opening the map, but I’m not farming karma so it feels a lot less painful.

Hopefully by the time I get to the point you are at this will be resolved.

Cerise.9045:

Silencer

Are you saying the people who were getting 100k+ karma in “an hour and a half” were somehow exploiting?

Of course they weren’t, they were doing the same things that people have been doing since BWE1 and every stress test. There is no exploiting here at all, arenanet even acknowledged their work by congratulating them on their legendary.

Nobody got rolled back, nobody was banned.
It’s called playing the game.

Wait a minute. 100k karma an hour? How is that even possible? I don’t see how its possible to do that without hacking the game.

JonPeters

Looking at the numbers this morning, we believe some of the threshold systems are just too harsh empirically and we’ll be adjusting those systems within the next few weeks to ensure that fewer legitimate players are being impacted.

Please adjust those numbers so it’s at least possible to complete one event without hitting the DR.

There are several – and not all at Orr – that involve defending a town against waves of mobs.

I joined one of those in the Sparkly Fen region (hardly max level) and it comes with a count-down timer: 20 minutes.

I can tell that after 10+ minutes or so, I started getting swamped by red messages and getting nothing from the mobs.

Now, how am I supposed to do join one event (not two, just one) if I lose any reward in the middle of it?

Expecially considering the though veterans and bosses usually come at the end, that is when the DR kicked in place, yet if I die to them I still have to pay the same repairs?

What if after the one event I actually want to move on and keep playing in the region? Does the DR reset somehow or I am locked out of any drop till I quit?

@vaerah DR resets after a half hour or so killing things on a different map if you’re lucky. If you’re unlucky well, there are people stuck in the DR state for a week :-(

I’d be ok with DR if Anet gives us a buff telling us the percent of the DR we have. That way I know what to complain to Anet about what in the DR programming is not working. I remember joining the Zerg, after a few weeks of never going there, in Orr and popped my karma boast and before we even completed all the events I already hit DR somewhere between the 3rd boss and the last boss. With the boast I was only getting about 170ish karma. I’m not sure what to complain about why I was getting DR. Was it just because I’m simply playing Anet’s game? Or was it because 10 mins is considering farming and DR needs to affect me (keep in mind you never do the same event 2x in a row in Orr)? Maybe because the people around me has been farming it and because I’m around them DR also affects me?

SHM.7628:

Cerise.9045:

Silencer

Are you saying the people who were getting 100k+ karma in “an hour and a half” were somehow exploiting?

Of course they weren’t, they were doing the same things that people have been doing since BWE1 and every stress test. There is no exploiting here at all, arenanet even acknowledged their work by congratulating them on their legendary.

Nobody got rolled back, nobody was banned.
It’s called playing the game.

Wait a minute. 100k karma an hour? How is that even possible? I don’t see how its possible to do that without hacking the game.

“Hour and a half” was a quote from the post by silencer.
What happened was that people who got their legendary without exploiting were getting anywhere from 70k simply grinding or upwards of 120k with hardcore grinding and karma boosters per day. Somehow silencer turned this into “an hour and a half”.

I’ve been trying to fraggin kill the risen priest of balthazar for about 3 days now so I constantly follow up the escort quests from both southern and northern invasions, every single time I finish such events, I always get the same amount of karma as prior to the DR fix, at best I believe whoever is having this “DR bug” are those who constantly do events after events in a very fast paced manner, a good example will be the massive zerg that took place in straits of devastation, that was just a zerg train going from event to event killing stuff, so maybe, those that are having issues with this need to play…less? or do chain events that take a while to complete.

I’m just curious after reading Jon’s reply and those of others.

Are bots that sophisticated that they can complete event chains now? The reason I ask is Jon states that “farmers = GOOD”, so unless bots are able to complete event chains I don’t understand why the DR system penalizes those of us who participate in events.

I do not like the reply. I am however very grateful that you replied.

I will have to think over my gaming purchase very carefully. The most enjoyable aspect of gaming for me, is finding the most efficient and effective method of accomplishing whatever various goals I decide to adopt within the game.

With a DR system in place I am directly penalized for my playstyle.

I am fortunate and having spending money IRL. I have every intention to continue spending far more than a paltry 15$ a month a pay to play would charge me… but I have to enjoy playing first… and right now I don’t.

I have hit the DR for loot within 15 minutes of logging in on numerous occasions… that doesn’t seem even remotely close to the “right place” that’s insane. After reading through this thread I’ve learned it is heavily affected by Magic Find how quickly DR sets in, which would make sense as I have a “full” MF set. (That’s +212% in case you where curious… though technically I could get it to 215% or even 225% “while under a boon”…so maybe not “full full”) This explains why I’ve had far more frustration with DR than other people I’ve talked to. It hits me fast and hard, and I get annoyed and logout.

Not sure how to stay constructive, it really is a dealbreaker for me if I keep getting hit with DR in my normal play. Otherwise I very much love this game, and have and will continue to try and be patient. But this hit home for me, personally, very strongly.

There really needs to be a better solution for creating a safety net to curb exploitations. This “fix” is really not constructive. The only effects it’s caused is player frustration, and increased botting.

/shrug
Here’s to hoping you get it right. I’d like to spend more money in your gem shop. Just waiting for the game to work again.

We are talking multiple week wait for a fix. At least 2 maybe a lot more. Since its Anets mistake. (IE-you guys royally screwd up) How about offering something to ease the situation. Here’s some suggestions.

1) Roll back the DR patch while we wait.

2) Roll back the karma part of the patch.

3) Give everyone an item (one per account) that upon use gives say 100k Karma.

4) 100 free karma & exp boosters.

5) some gems

6) 2 tiers of free inventory space.

Before anyone scoffs at the idea. Its not very much to ask consideing the time frame involved. I canm earn a lot of rewards in 2 weeks to a month (or perhaps more). It would show some good will on your part.

Thoughts?

Abrexus.2910:

I’m just curious after reading Jon’s reply and those of others.

Are bots that sophisticated that they can complete event chains now? The reason I ask is Jon states that “farmers = GOOD”, so unless bots are able to complete event chains I don’t understand why the DR system penalizes those of us who participate in events.

The problem is there is absolutely NOTHING ArenaNet can do to stop the bots except ban them. Well there is one or two things but from a playing behavior standpoint there is nothing. Bots can be programmed to get around the DR. The only reason they aren’t right now is because normal players can’t even get around DR so neither can bots. The only thing that would stop a bot would probably be some sort of captcha/human test that pops up.

If they make it so DR doesn’t impact those doing multiple event chains, bots will start doing event chains. I’ve already seen a bot that does event chains. All they do is teleport along the the dynamic event path. So for the Harathi centaurs the bot teleports from the the first attacked camp, up the road, into the main centaur base, and the whole way through to the skillpoint. That covers the whole chain and they are killing things along the way.

Need to relog to reset DR? Bots can do that
Need to kill different mobs in different zones? Bots can do that!
Need to only play so many hours? Bots can do that(but wont).

Seriously, ArenaNet can attempt to tune their DR system but it will almost always impact real players. They need to think of another plan soon because bots are out of control. Send a GM around to pentinent path on every server and you could easily ban hundreds of bots in a few hours. Repeat with all the other hotspots, they have(should have) software that monitors player hotspots.

JonPeters.5630:

Some players have run into “diminishing returns” thresholds we put into the game to provide a safety net against unanticipated economy-breaking issues. We do have these thresholds in place, but it’s not our intention that normal players should ever run into them. We’ve recently had bugs and imbalances that have caused normal players to hit thresholds, and we’ll fix those.

So there are bugs, and they will be fixed…given enough time and priority.

Why people cry and cry about buggy systems is beyond me, report the bug and be patient on the fix. Anet is a company made of human beings; they don’t have any more hours in the day than you or I do. And they have to go to sleep at some point.

JonPeters.5630:

It would be bad for everyone if, for example, a group of players learned how to speed-clear a dungeon in 5 minutes, with full rewards each time, and then repeated that continuously.

That’s fine, but as described earlier 15 minutes is when the exploit DR kicks in. When you’ve got a group of geared 80s who play well, its not inconceivable for them to run through explorable mode in 15 minutes or less without actually ‘exploiting’ anything.

5 minutes I can see. None of those dungeons are do-able in 5 minutes unless you’re exploiting simply due to the amount of content.

JonPeters.5630:

While we need a safety net to stop unanticipated economy-breaking exploits and botting, we have no desire to stop farming. Farmers are a part every online economy and when they are doing normal game activity they do not cause any harm. If a player finds a normal game activity fun and would like to keep doing it, that’s fine with us.

When your event is beaten and it reactivates, the time it takes to reactivate should not trigger a diminishing return. Big example here is the Harpy attack near the Ascalon Catacombs. If you’re waiting for a group, and you complete that event as often as it reactivates, the DR kicks in. If you don’t want players doing events that quickly, tone down the reactivation times.

Event DR is the easiest safety net to remove, you have complete control over the number of events and how quickIy they come back (it doesn’t like those two words together). Tweak it so that people are unable to stand in one area and repeatedly complete an event faster than you desire.

JonPeters.5630:

Initially we have to rely on smaller data sets, instinct and some guesswork to find the correct cutoff. What this means is that some players are going to bump into the edges of these systems for a while as we get them sorted out.

The only problem with bumping into DR edges in this game is that its more like jumping face-down on a knife. Your immediately treated as if you’re botting/exploiting. This is what players are mostly angry about…but then they just get mad at the system and expect an immediate removal with no questions asked.

DRs should increase gradually to the point where they become harsh if you continue to do what shouldn’t be done instead of immediately giving players the finger without any prior notice or inclination whatsoever.

I do appreciate Anet’s time taken for communication with their community. Its very hard to work and troll the forums at the same time looking for an opening to spit out a few words and hope those words don’t say too much or fall on deaf ears.

Celeras.4980:

I received gold for every single event but one, and got 378 karma for every completion. Did not notice any diminishing returns whatsoever. I reckon this was due to playing correctly, rather than endlessly repeating a single chain in a centralized location.

Since when did you have a right to tell players that they play the game correctly?
Is your playstyle the only viable one?

Its wonderful to finally see a response, but I am eagerly anticipating what may happen in the coming weeks.The decision on DR/Bot control in the coming weeks could break or make this game.

Redscope.6215:

JonPeters.5630:

Some players have run into “diminishing returns” thresholds we put into the game to provide a safety net against unanticipated economy-breaking issues. We do have these thresholds in place, but it’s not our intention that normal players should ever run into them. We’ve recently had bugs and imbalances that have caused normal players to hit thresholds, and we’ll fix those.

So there are bugs, and they will be fixed…given enough time and priority.

Why people cry and cry about buggy systems is beyond me, report the bug and be patient on the fix. Anet is a company made of human beings; they don’t have any more hours in the day than you or I do. And they have to go to sleep at some point.

JonPeters.5630:

It would be bad for everyone if, for example, a group of players learned how to speed-clear a dungeon in 5 minutes, with full rewards each time, and then repeated that continuously.

That’s fine, but as described earlier 15 minutes is when the exploit DR kicks in. When you’ve got a group of geared 80s who play well, its not inconceivable for them to run through explorable mode in 15 minutes or less without actually ‘exploiting’ anything.

5 minutes I can see. None of those dungeons are do-able in 5 minutes unless you’re exploiting simply due to the amount of content.

JonPeters.5630:

While we need a safety net to stop unanticipated economy-breaking exploits and botting, we have no desire to stop farming. Farmers are a part every online economy and when they are doing normal game activity they do not cause any harm. If a player finds a normal game activity fun and would like to keep doing it, that’s fine with us.

When your event is beaten and it reactivates, the time it takes to reactivate should not trigger a diminishing return. Big example here is the Harpy attack near the Ascalon Catacombs. If you’re waiting for a group, and you complete that event as often as it reactivates, the DR kicks in. If you don’t want players doing events that quickly, tone down the reactivation times.

Event DR is the easiest safety net to remove, you have complete control over the number of events and how quickIy they come back (it doesn’t like those two words together). Tweak it so that people are unable to stand in one area and repeatedly complete an event faster than you desire.

JonPeters.5630:

Initially we have to rely on smaller data sets, instinct and some guesswork to find the correct cutoff. What this means is that some players are going to bump into the edges of these systems for a while as we get them sorted out.

The only problem with bumping into DR edges in this game is that its more like jumping face-down on a knife. Your immediately treated as if you’re botting/exploiting. This is what players are mostly angry about…but then they just get mad at the system and expect an immediate removal with no questions asked.

DRs should increase gradually to the point where they become harsh if you continue to do what shouldn’t be done instead of immediately giving players the finger without any prior notice or inclination whatsoever.

I do appreciate Anet’s time taken for communication with their community. Its very hard to work and troll the forums at the same time looking for an opening to spit out a few words and hope those words don’t say too much or fall on deaf ears.

Why people cry over the bug? This has gone on 2 weeks without even a mention that it was a bug. I think the reason for that was the backlash was more than they expected.
If not then why not just say, Its bugged, we’re working on it thank you for your patience. I doubt it was ever a bug. I think it was intentional, and they disliked the bad press. and/or lost revenue at the cash shop.

That is all hindsight. Now we have an answer. Are you are asking why people are continuing to "cry’ as you put it.? My answer is this. DR has no place in an MMO. It’s too problematic and does nothing to Bots. There’s a million ways it can mess up = innocent players get punished.

Plus I don’t want to have to monitor their failure of a system. I also don’t want to have to worry about “playing right” That is too much work. You say they are crying, I say they are kitten off and other than full rollback of DR will be unacceptable.

Without rewards = Its all just grind. N’est pas?

I already had to leave one 80+ member guild because everyone quit(for various reasons). I’m done with this game too. A primary reason I wont be playing is this stupid DR system. Its preventing me from playing how I want to.

“A few weeks” is unacceptable to me. In fact a DR system at all is unacceptable to me. Ive seen no evidence that this game has anything resembling a reasonable or functional economy that’s worth protecting.

I mean RIFT has a far better economy and currency in that game is practically without value because currency is so abundant. And you don’t need anything from it to be competitive, but still there is a huge amount of auction house trading where profit is possible. Materials in that game aren’t terribly difficult to get either, but there are a wide variety of consumable items needed for raiding that keep supply down and demand up.

GW2 economy is already a joke. Nice job protecting it by screwing over the player base for going on 2 months.

I don’t think I’ll ever play another B2P MMO again. there is not enough incentive for B2P companies to provide value to their customer, and too many incentives for them to screw over their customers. B2P in this case is simply a F2P model with an upfront cost.

Man, I know where you’re coming from Travleer. But c’mon, tell me you didn’t have fun with this game? It really does boil down to “was it worth your $60” and in that sense, I find most of us agree.

Seems some of us are spoiled from previous games, myself included. After reading the Oct. 4th statement, I’m starting to see now they need our patience, and if we give them that, they will come through.

I will very likely be purchasing expansions.

rook.4625:

Man, I know where you’re coming from Travleer. But c’mon, tell me you didn’t have fun with this game? It really does boil down to “was it worth your $60” and in that sense, I find most of us agree.

Seems some of us are spoiled from previous games, myself included. After reading the Oct. 4th statement, I’m starting to see now they need our patience, and if we give them that, they will come through.

I will very likely be purchasing expansions.

I know this wasn’t directed at me, but I bought the game because of their reputation of making a fine game with replay value. No, I don’t find 2 weeks of acceptable play. DR is a dealbreaker. Had they mentioned that up front = I wouldn’t have purchased.

If I liked the game, I wouldn’t mind supporting them with Cash Shop purchases and buying expansions.. Giving me a lackluster game then making me pay to improve it? No.

To sumerize: 2 weeks of good play doesn’t feel like i got my money’s worth.

rook.4625:

Man, I know where you’re coming from Travleer. But c’mon, tell me you didn’t have fun with this game? It really does boil down to “was it worth your $60” and in that sense, I find most of us agree.

Seems some of us are spoiled from previous games, myself included. After reading the Oct. 4th statement, I’m starting to see now they need our patience, and if we give them that, they will come through.

I will very likely be purchasing expansions.

Sure it was worth. I’m just saying I won’t be doing it again. I expected to be playing this game a year from now or even longer. DR is fundamentally flawed. Its Dev vs Player. It’s apparent to me that botting is out of control because there is no customer support infrastructure that most MMO’s use a primary means of combating them. I doubt their sincerity when they say DR is a means to combat botting.

I got you. Look, lol, they’re trying to innovate this genre. Pioneers somewhat. That kitten is not easy. I agree with you on the replay value, as I argue for any kind of additional content @80. But we’re not paying monthly for this feature, so to some extent, this game is revolutionary in that it combines elements of MMO and SRPG together.

I know they have a vision for their game too. And I won’t be surprised if you see future mmos (Titan included) building on the goals ANet is trying to achieve.

rook.4625:

I got you. Look, lol, they’re trying to innovate this genre. Pioneers somewhat. That kitten is not easy. I agree with you on the replay value, as I argue for any kind of additional content @80. But we’re not paying monthly for this feature, so to some extent, this game is revolutionary in that it combines elements of MMO and SRPG together.

I know they have a vision for their game too. And I won’t be surprised if you see future mmos (Titan included) building on the goals ANet is trying to achieve.

Thanks, I get you too. All they would have to do to make me 100% happy with this game again = remove all traces of DR.

SHM.7628:

… I doubt it was ever a bug. I think it was intentional, and they disliked the bad press. and/or lost revenue at the cash shop.

That is all hindsight. Now we have an answer. Are you are asking why people are continuing to "cry’ as you put it.? My answer is this. DR has no place in an MMO. It’s too problematic and does nothing to Bots. There’s a million ways it can mess up = innocent players get punished.

Plus I don’t want to have to monitor their failure of a system. I also don’t want to have to worry about “playing right” That is too much work. You say they are crying, I say they are kitten off and other than full rollback of DR will be unacceptable. …

Yep, you’re dead on, SHM. GW2 is going to be known as “That MMO with DR” until it’s removed. People don’t want to play a game knowing every single moment of play, every keypress, every mouse click and in-game action is lessening their reward. DR has to go, or it will be the doom (to varying degrees) of GW2.

Put another way, here’s a few conversations between two hypothetical gamers:
—
“Hey, you gonna buy GW2 or MoP?”
“I was gonna buy GW2, but it has diminishing returns, so I’m going with MoP”
—
“Hey, I’m looking for a new MMO, what’s new and good?”
“Anything but GW2”
“Why, I heard it’s really good?”
“Yep, it is, but it has DR”
“Oh, well forget that!”
—
“Hey, let’s play some GW2”
“Nah, they only let you play for 30 minutes each day, then they nerf your loot”
“What? Screw that, then, let’s go play <insert game here> then, where they don’t do that”.
—
“Hey, why aren’t you playing GW2, I thought you waited 5 years for that game?”
“I did, but they put in diminishing returns, which presumes guilt before innocence, so I don’t see any point in playing anymore”
“Well that’s too bad, it looked really good!”
“In every other way that matters, it’s a great MMO. It’s a real shame, yep”
—

This will happen. In fact, I would bet a dollar these conversations are already happening. Every second DR is in GW2, this will continue to be the case more often, until it’s another forgotten MMO, just like GW1.

The solution is clear, Arenanet: Take out DR. Remove it entirely. Do it now before MORE irreversible harm is done to your intellectual property, brand, and game.

vjek.4270:

SHM.7628:

… I doubt it was ever a bug. I think it was intentional, and they disliked the bad press. and/or lost revenue at the cash shop.

That is all hindsight. Now we have an answer. Are you are asking why people are continuing to "cry’ as you put it.? My answer is this. DR has no place in an MMO. It’s too problematic and does nothing to Bots. There’s a million ways it can mess up = innocent players get punished.

Plus I don’t want to have to monitor their failure of a system. I also don’t want to have to worry about “playing right” That is too much work. You say they are crying, I say they are kitten off and other than full rollback of DR will be unacceptable. …

Yep, you’re dead on, SHM. GW2 is going to be known as “That MMO with DR” until it’s removed. People don’t want to play a game knowing every single moment of play, every keypress, every mouse click and in-game action is lessening their reward. DR has to go, or it will be the doom (to varying degrees) of GW2.

Put another way, here’s a few conversations between two hypothetical gamers:
—
“Hey, you gonna buy GW2 or MoP?”
“I was gonna buy GW2, but it has diminishing returns, so I’m going with MoP”
—
“Hey, I’m looking for a new MMO, what’s new and good?”
“Anything but GW2”
“Why, I heard it’s really good?”
“Yep, it is, but it has DR”
“Oh, well forget that!”
—
“Hey, let’s play some GW2”
“Nah, they only let you play for 30 minutes each day, then they nerf your loot”
“What? Screw that, then, let’s go play <insert game here> then, where they don’t do that”.
—
“Hey, why aren’t you playing GW2, I thought you waited 5 years for that game?”
“I did, but they put in diminishing returns, which presumes guilt before innocence, so I don’t see any point in playing anymore”
“Well that’s too bad, it looked really good!”
“In every other way that matters, it’s a great MMO. It’s a real shame, yep”
—

This will happen. In fact, I would bet a dollar these conversations are already happening. Every second DR is in GW2, this will continue to be the case more often, until it’s another forgotten MMO, just like GW1.

The solution is clear, Arenanet: Take out DR. Remove it entirely. Do it now before MORE irreversible harm is done to your intellectual property, brand, and game.

People have said whole 80 player guilds have cleared out. I have no reason to disbelieve them.I left myself until they gave an explanation. I’ll wait and see what there next move is before doing anything further.

Alexnssilent.3690:

I’ve been trying to fraggin kill the risen priest of balthazar for about 3 days now so I constantly follow up the escort quests from both southern and northern invasions, every single time I finish such events, I always get the same amount of karma as prior to the DR fix, at best I believe whoever is having this “DR bug” are those who constantly do events after events in a very fast paced manner, a good example will be the massive zerg that took place in straits of devastation, that was just a zerg train going from event to event killing stuff, so maybe, those that are having issues with this need to play…less? or do chain events that take a while to complete.

Playing less is certainly what has happened to me when I see my rewards drop to double or single digit pay outs.
Finished my dailies in Frostgorge the other day. Claw of Jormag event started. I joined it. No issues at all.
Switched over to my new alt and completed one event; got DR’d. Logged off to watch a movie.
Had planned on map clearing a new zone on the alt that evening with a friend (one of the few rl friends that are still playing). :/

It’s buggy, as they said. So not much I can do till they fix it or get rid of it and try a better system.

SHM.7628:

Why people cry over the bug? This has gone on 2 weeks without even a mention that it was a bug. I think the reason for that was the backlash was more than they expected.

People are crying on this forum 24/7. If they changed everything due to people crying, they’d be changing every aspect of the game for the duration they support it. You can’t assume because people make long-winded posts about leaving the game that tons of people are leaving, can you?

Its the same situation here.

You can’t just assume there’s a problem because some guys make long posts about how they don’t like it.

SHM.7628:

If not then why not just say, Its bugged, we’re working on it thank you for your patience. I doubt it was ever a bug. I think it was intentional, and they disliked the bad press. and/or lost revenue at the cash shop.

They’ve probably had to identify a bug themselves. Nobody helps identify bugs when they come on the forums and spout, “DR is broken fix it now!!” and continue to cry about how “DR has no place…etc…etc..”

Did you ever stop to think that maybe you were being hit too hard and there is an issue with the system? How come every time something gets implemented it was always “the way they meant it to be”?

Help them identify bugs with details instead of acting like an angry child who doesn’t understand why his lollipop was taken away.

SHM.7628:

That is all hindsight. Now we have an answer. Are you are asking why people are continuing to "cry’ as you put it.? My answer is this. DR has no place in an MMO. It’s too problematic and does nothing to Bots. There’s a million ways it can mess up = innocent players get punished.

Which brings us to the crux of the problem. Your opinion is your own. Anet obviously spent a lot of time figuring out the most effective and efficient way to police their game based on their company’s needs. I suggest you help them make your experience better rather than continuously crying about how its not like other games and it should be your way.

SHM.7628:

Plus I don’t want to have to monitor their failure of a system. I also don’t want to have to worry about “playing right” That is too much work. You say they are crying, I say they are kitten off and other than full rollback of DR will be unacceptable.

You don’t want to use software with bugs in it? May as well take every single piece of electronics you own and toss it. That’s the only way to achieve bug-free software.

Bugs are going to exist. If you happen to be negatively impacted by them, all they can do is apologize and hope to god that you’ve given them info about it so that they don’t have to find it themselves; which takes time and means that others will be impacted negatively as well.

SHM.7628:

Without rewards = Its all just grind. N’est pas?

What have you done in this game that has not rewarded you at all for doing so? I’m sure they’d be happy to fix that issue as well, so long as they have proper info.

Everything I’ve done has rewarded me upon completion. Sometimes I get hit with DR too harshly, agreed, but I don’t get nothing.

I chilled at an outpost somewhere waiting for my dungeon party got ready and there was an event which repeated every few minutes. After doing it 3 times in a row it already gave less than half the normal Karma going down even further each time.
Why make events repeat so fast if chilling for less than an hour at some outpost already triggers this stupid thing.

LOL at the response, i hit the anti bot code in 5 minutes with a store brought magic find and 200 magic find, 5 minutes of items dropping and then i killed 40 mobs for 2 drops. I logged out and played my other char came back and killed another 40 for 3 drops.

The bots have ruined this game without even selling the gold, just all the anti bot crap is effecting players and not actual bots.
Real players kill stuff fast as they use aoe and attack multiple mobs, bots kill things slow, so the anti bot code only effects real players.

The fresh 80’s get screwed even more everything has been nerfed to the point they are miles behind. The whole economy needs a do over, inflate everything in small expansion.

Oh btw i went back to the bot bridge and didn’t see any bots there, that was a good change, make the harder events give better rewards and no DR on anything.

No world PVP is also contributing to the botting BTW, you don’t see them in the wvw botting.

Redscope.6215:

SHM.7628:

Why people cry over the bug? This has gone on 2 weeks without even a mention that it was a bug. I think the reason for that was the backlash was more than they expected.

People are crying on this forum 24/7. If they changed everything due to people crying, they’d be changing every aspect of the game for the duration they support it. You can’t assume because people make long-winded posts about leaving the game that tons of people are leaving, can you?

Dude I you wanna bury your head in the sand fine. I’ve seen behaviors change. People tagging groups to exploit because of DR, when they would have played through before.

I’ve been at empty events that were formerly full. I’ve seen a dramatic drop in the amount of people playing. The maps ( I can only speak for what i’ve seen on my server) are dramaticly emptier.

I’ve reported bugs. lots of people have. There are going to be bugs. Most accept that. There’s a camera bug, but Its being worked on. I know because there was a response. Fair enough. It’s not eing brought up now.

Yes, people have been bringing up complaints. If you want to consider them criers or whiners, fine. Most people who post concerns actually like the game. However, people have been leaving over DR. Stark difference between this and DR.

DR shouldn’t be here in any incarnation. It’s not the fact that its buggy, It’s the fact it was ever implemented. You are very much in the minority on this one if you like/support DR. Look at this thread and then look at others. 99% people agree on here

One thing to keep in perspective is that this limit is NOT affecting “95%” of players. It’s only affecting people who are extremely efficient end-game farmers, which is by no means even a simply majority of players – it’s probably not more than a (very vocal) few thousand. The majority of players probably aren’t even level 80 yet. All told, this is a big problem, but it’s not affecting the entire playerbase.

Additionally, the thing that makes this problem frustrating is not really even the DR itself, but rather the tiny handful of people (probably not more than a few hundred) who were able to profit enormously before the DR was really set in place. People keep comparing themselves to the guys who are already holding legendaries, but if the DR had been this strict since day 1 I don’t think everyone would be so upset about it.

Ultimately, if you are frustrated, the best thing you can do is focus on another area of the game until it’s fixed. Level up some alts or something – that’s my advice. Banging your head against the wall doesn’t help your head or the wall.

arabeth.2361:

Ultimately, if you are frustrated, the best thing you can do is focus on another area of the game until it’s fixed. Level up some alts or something – that’s my advice. Banging your head against the wall doesn’t help your head or the wall.

I disagree on the vocal minority point…………but whatever on that. Maybe people miss it if they don’t look at thei reward medal. Maybe others who don’t pay attention to drops miss it too.

It’s hitting people, I’ve been hit with it on the first even after an aproximate 12 hour logout. It’s hit me on my alts, while doing hearts in newly opened areas in the first 20 minutes (probably less). Hurts less on the alts with the karma, but it still sucks to quickly see your rewards halved then dropped repeatedly from there. especially when you are leveling.

To you’re point, “do something else”? after reading may last paragraph, what do you recommend I do?

The whole system can be fixed rather simply.

Botters use programs. These programs have a pattern. A system could be put in place to watch patterns. Bots can be more optimized to follow different patterns, but they will ALWAYS create a traceable pattern.

A human will not just stand there and wait for spawns, a human will never return to the exact same coordinates to check for X (close but never exact), a human farmer will move to the next place quickly after a kill.

Why can’t a system put in place that monitors movements? It would not be hard. The other day I was in a place and a Ranger was just firing arrows at nothing, went back 3 hours later same person doing the same thing (reported). That is how bots work. They stand and wait or move in exact patterns.

Trace these movements and auto ban. It is not hard and fixes those of us whom are trying to enjoy the game with rewards for our time while punishing those who don’t do what gamers do, MOVE!

The whole system can be fixed rather simply.

Botters use programs. These programs have a pattern. A system could be put in place to watch patterns. Bots can be more optimized to follow different patterns, but they will ALWAYS create a traceable pattern.

You know how easy it would be to code in a couple lines that every so often it breaks up the pattern by doing something random, or has a scripted conversation on map chat, or any number of other things would break any noticeable “pattern”?

A human will not just stand there and wait for spawns, a human will never return to the exact same coordinates to check for X (close but never exact), a human farmer will move to the next place quickly after a kill.

Seen people wait for spawns. Specially in Orr where veterans respawn constantly, because some people think vets give better loot.

People will, sometimes through sheer luck, keep lannding on the same coordinates.

The problem here is that people can, without meaning to, emulate a pattern. Let’s say you build your bot detecto-script. As soon as Johnny Justplayingthegame moves just right (or wrong, depending on how you look at it), BAM! He gets banned. And comes (rightly so) to the boards to kitten.

Why can’t a system put in place that monitors movements? It would not be hard. The other day I was in a place and a Ranger was just firing arrows at nothing, went back 3 hours later same person doing the same thing (reported). That is how bots work. They stand and wait or move in exact patterns.

The lazy ones do. If Anet bans them, writers will just script smarter bots. On the other hand. I was bored waiting for a friend to come back from Afk the other day, and kept dropping an aoe field in the same place every time it was off cooldown for a while. I’m pretty sure I’m not a bot. Will your program know the difference?

Your idea is admirable. It’s just that

A) it won’t fix anything in the long run as botters will just modify their scripts to get around the security (this btw is why Anet won’t divulge the exact numbers behind DR, so that botters/exploiters kitten near anyone else at this point won’t just find ways to get around them.)

B) It will punish legitimate players without meaning to the moment they jsut do something wrong.

I’m not saying DR is the right choice either. But your idea won’t work well enough to be worth it.

I have a few questions

How do bots even work? If they target a specific location for a monster spawn, can’t you make the spawn more random in a grid location?

Why does Anet never seem to actively police their games with real people? Would it be so hard to have some staff be in the game and ban the bots? Yes there are lot of servers, but a few people could make a huge dent if they worked a couple servers a day. Especially when there are know locations. The rest could be communicated in-game by players directly to a GM. They didn’t do this in GW1 when you could stand in a town and see bots running by in a very specific pattern. Just never understood why there is no active policing. Hell, Pay me a few bucks an hour and I’ll do it.

I think that the majority of frustration with the DR system is that it may/may not be doing anything effectively, you can still go places directly in the game (ie; where Tequatl is) and see bots physically…with your own eyes…and they are there every day.

Why don’t they just go into the game, find the bots physically, and delete them. Then you can test a system like DR more vigorously before releasing it on the game.

/shrugs

Does anyone here saying “hire more people” actually own a business, or at least work in a management position that involves hiring workers?

There’s a lot more to it than grabbing someone off the street and saying “sit here and watch for bots.” Advertising, interviews, hiring, background checks (you don’t give just anyone off the street access to your computer systems and the ability to mess with real paying customers), training, benefits, Social Security payments, taxes and paperwork, employee turnover rates, hiring someone else to replace every employee who quits or gets fired, it costs a lot more than $10/hr to hire a worker, and watching over dozens of servers (I counted 24 American servers, not sure about elsewhere) by manning three shifts a day, seven days a week… you’re talking about hiring a staff of dozens if not hundreds of people.

So, you would pay $50 a month to play a game with a live anti-bot team on staff? More?

tolunart.2095:

Does anyone here saying “hire more people” actually own a business, or at least work in a management position that involves hiring workers?

There’s a lot more to it than grabbing someone off the street and saying “sit here and watch for bots.” Advertising, interviews, hiring, background checks (you don’t give just anyone off the street access to your computer systems and the ability to mess with real paying customers), training, benefits, Social Security payments, taxes and paperwork, employee turnover rates, hiring someone else to replace every employee who quits or gets fired, it costs a lot more than $10/hr to hire a worker, and watching over dozens of servers (I counted 24 American servers, not sure about elsewhere) by manning three shifts a day, seven days a week… you’re talking about hiring a staff of dozens if not hundreds of people.

So, you would pay $50 a month to play a game with a live anti-bot team on staff? More?

Because Bots werent a problem in the MMO industry until GW2 launched right?
Because ANET had absolutely no warning that bots might plague their game before launch right?
Because imposing systems that hurt and diminish their customers enjoyment with a product they paid for is totally justified right?

We see your point, but we arent hearing it, and for my part, I dont care to. They screwed up, time to pay the piper.

Lysidian.4653:

tolunart.2095:

Does anyone here saying “hire more people” actually own a business, or at least work in a management position that involves hiring workers?

Because Bots werent a problem in the MMO industry until GW2 launched right?
Because ANET had absolutely no warning that bots might plague their game before launch right?
Because imposing systems that hurt and diminish their customers enjoyment with a product they paid for is totally justified right?

We see your point, but we arent hearing it, and for my part, I dont care to. They screwed up, time to pay the piper.

I’m already aware of your stance on botting, and my post did not concern botting in the industry as a whole. I was curious about whether people who think the answer is “boots on the ground” are aware of the cost and difficulty of getting and maintaining that number of boots.

As such, you’re just using my post as an excuse to post rant against bots #50325. We’ve heard it before.

Further, a “dialogue” involves a willingness to communicate by listening as well as speaking. A number of individuals have done nothing but repeat the same rants endlessly and insult anyone who tries to present a different point of view. Having shown an unwillingness to listen to others, is it any surprise that others refuse to listen to you?

tolunart.2095:

Lysidian.4653:

tolunart.2095:

Does anyone here saying “hire more people” actually own a business, or at least work in a management position that involves hiring workers?

Because Bots werent a problem in the MMO industry until GW2 launched right?
Because ANET had absolutely no warning that bots might plague their game before launch right?
Because imposing systems that hurt and diminish their customers enjoyment with a product they paid for is totally justified right?

We see your point, but we arent hearing it, and for my part, I dont care to. They screwed up, time to pay the piper.

I’m already aware of your stance on botting, and my post did not concern botting in the industry as a whole. I was curious about whether people who think the answer is “boots on the ground” are aware of the cost and difficulty of getting and maintaining that number of boots.

As such, you’re just using my post as an excuse to post rant against bots #50325. We’ve heard it before.

Then you missed my intent.

What you should have been able to glean from what I said was this,

ANET should have been better prepared and better equiped to deal with the influx of bots. ANET should have already had the support staff and customer service to handle the bots.

Boots on the ground are the only way to effectively handle bots. Automated systems do little but stop the freebee gliders and bots, as well as push the botters into a cat and mouse game of changing up their code every week.

Is that simple enough or shall I break down even further?

Then what you are saying is that the game should have been a subscription-model game with additional charges to cover the cost of having a full time anti-bot staff. That’s what I wanted to know.

As some govt guy once said, you go to war with the army that you have, not the army that you would like to have. Or something to that effect.

I like this game, but paying $60 for the game and $20, $30 a month or more to play it would keep me from trying it out in the first place. I suspect many others feel the same way. On the other hand botting and DR has not diminished my ability to enjoy the game for what it is.

this:

ANET should have been better prepared and better equiped to deal with the influx of bots. ANET should have already had the support staff and customer service to handle the bots.

tolunart.2095:

Then what you are saying is that the game should have been a subscription-model game with additional charges to cover the cost of having a full time anti-bot staff. That’s what I wanted to know.

*sigh

There you go with the assumptions again. Didn’t say a word about subscription or how ANET pays for it. They should have known they would need to deal with bots, and they should have planned those costs into their business model. Its not our fault if they didn’t do that. However as consumers we expect to get what we payed for regardless of their financial woes. Not really our problem to worry with, its theirs. Either they provide the product they advertised, or customers get pissy. Its their name on the line. Wouldn’t be the first dev to crash and burn because of bad design or business practices.

Lysidian.4653:

There you go with the assumptions again.

You said “Boots on the ground are the only way to effectively handle bots…”

You answered my question. Those boots cost a lot more than you think. That’s all I wanted to know.

Lysidian.4653:

tolunart.2095:

Does anyone here saying “hire more people” actually own a business, or at least work in a management position that involves hiring workers?

There’s a lot more to it than grabbing someone off the street and saying “sit here and watch for bots.” Advertising, interviews, hiring, background checks (you don’t give just anyone off the street access to your computer systems and the ability to mess with real paying customers), training, benefits, Social Security payments, taxes and paperwork, employee turnover rates, hiring someone else to replace every employee who quits or gets fired, it costs a lot more than $10/hr to hire a worker, and watching over dozens of servers (I counted 24 American servers, not sure about elsewhere) by manning three shifts a day, seven days a week… you’re talking about hiring a staff of dozens if not hundreds of people.

So, you would pay $50 a month to play a game with a live anti-bot team on staff? More?

Because Bots werent a problem in the MMO industry until GW2 launched right?
Because ANET had absolutely no warning that bots might plague their game before launch right?
Because imposing systems that hurt and diminish their customers enjoyment with a product they paid for is totally justified right?

We see your point, but we arent hearing it, and for my part, I dont care to. They screwed up, time to pay the piper.

Right on lysidian. They knew about bots. They are a viable company (not a fly by night. or a start up) What’s more, They took their time with this game. A lot of time and then a lot of testing (open and closed betas.)

Understood, Its a new game and issues arise. The suggestion that they can’t affors to handle bots is absurd. The notion that they didn’t expect then is even more crazy. They simply kittened up with DR as a solution.

Going back and forth with tolunart a waste of time. He will find ome way to defend them come Hell or high water.

I have no particular bias, I spent $60 on the game and got my money’s worth out of it several times over. In fact, they don’t accept my debit card for payment so I couldn’t give them money if I wanted to.

I’m just tired of the MMO equivalent of the armchair quarterback sitting there going “you should do such-and-such” when you have no experience or accountability regarding the issue.

The company is trying to provide the best game they can to the greatest number of people they can. They are not under any obligation and have no desire to remake the game to suit whoever yells the loudest.

This thread reminds me of an old Benny Hill skit. A business owner and his worker were being interviewed, and the worker’s response to every problem was “put more men on the job!” At the end the boss asked if he had any children. The worker replied that despite his and his wife’s efforts she had not been able to get pregnant. So the boss said “put more men on the job!”

It’s easy to say that when you don’t have to take responsibility for it. A worker/consumer can sit there saying “hire more people!” endlessly because it doesn’t affect him. The worker still gets his paycheck, the consumer still gets to play the game even as the owner’s profits evaporate. If you were paying out of pocket for the extra workers, you’d be saying “you don’t need more people, just work more efficiently with what you have!”

"

tolunart.2095

Does anyone here saying “hire more people” actually own a business, or at least work in a management position that involves hiring workers?

There’s a lot more to it than grabbing someone off the street and saying “sit here and watch for bots.” Advertising, interviews, hiring, background checks (you don’t give just anyone off the street access to your computer systems and the ability to mess with real paying customers), training, benefits, Social Security payments, taxes and paperwork, employee turnover rates, hiring someone else to replace every employee who quits or gets fired, it costs a lot more than $10/hr to hire a worker, and watching over dozens of servers (I counted 24 American servers, not sure about elsewhere) by manning three shifts a day, seven days a week… you’re talking about hiring a staff of dozens if not hundreds of people.

So, you would pay $50 a month to play a game with a live anti-bot team on staff? More?"

Yes, I own a business. Yes, they could easily redirect manpower to this issue. Yes, the fanboi is strong in you.

The bots aren’t trying to hide they are bots. One person yes … ONE person could cull the packs running set waypoints in ONE day on all servers. I have personally leveled 3 toons to level 80 and many of the SAME bots are running the SAME waypoints. This isn’t rocket science. Anet has already been given a cheat sheet on the suspected ones by people just like me taking their time to follow the packs and report each individual in it. As if someone with GM rights couldn’t “right click BAN” if Anet so desired.

The DR isn’t for the bots … it is targeting the player-base, just like in GW1. Anet is SELLING gold and would like to sell MORE gold. Make a shortfall and drive people to that gem store. DR on Karma? Simple, there is very little end game and people were burning through it at an alarming pace.

Will DR be removed? We have YEARS of GW1 to know that it will not be. I for one am about done with this company and I have been there since they came into being.

I was getting hit with air bags while farming so leveled multiple toons to gather with. Why? Being a guild leader and trying to do WvW without being able to put all bodies in ONE group is a pita. So my quest for 100 gold was born courtesy of Anet. There is DR on gathering now as well. Really? Any goodwill you had with MANY of us Anet just flew out the window.

I will be really suprised if ANET takes DR out completely. I predict that they will just keep trimming it back until the amount of people complaining about it drops to a certain level. Which is fine, I dont agree with it, but hey its their name and game. I choose not to play under these conditions and havent for 3 weeks now. Needless to say, I have since added their name to my list next to EA, NCSoft, Gamers First, Bioware and Activision. They wont ever see another purchase from me.

tolunart.2095:

“Yes, the fanboi is strong in you”

This term is used to diminish the importance of someone with a different opinion. It indicates you are unwilling to listen to someone who disagrees with you. As such, there is no point in continuing a one-sided dialog.

Not knocking you Tolunart. Everyone is entitled to think whatever they want. But I am curious though, exactly what is it that you are arguing on here for? This thread is more or less complaining to ANET that they need to open up communication about DR and to remove the DR mechanic. Perhaps I am reading into what you are posting but you come across as defending ANET. Which doesnt seem to make sense to me because the red post indicates that ANET has admitted fault here.

Even after meeting requests for a statement about the issue, demands continue as though they didn’t say anything… or worse, people claim the statement is an outright lie.

You have the information you need from the official statement:

This is not intended to punish you. They recognize that some players enjoy “farming” repetetive content and DR applied to this activity is an unintended side effect.

They have been and continue to study the situation and will adjust DR to avoid catching legitimate activities. It’s purpose is to prevent unintended min/maxing.

I’d imagine the best example would be the “grub farming” incident. It is intended that you receive some rewards from the grubs that spawn and some rewards from killing the creature that spawns them. It was not intended that you kill the grubs indefinitely to continue receiving rewards from them. DR would discourage activities like this because beyond a certain point the grubs stop dropping loot and you have to kill the spawner.

How long they remain “lootable” however, is for the devs to decide. You can accept it or not, but realize you do not give the orders.

They will not simply remove the DR. It was put in place for a reason, and will be adjusted in the near future. Just because some people want instant results does not make it possible to provide those results. Patience is required.

People continue posting rants as though nothing was said, and even accuse Arenanet of lying to them. The nature of MMOs is that the game environment changes over time, and there is a disclaimer to that effect in the material you agree to before you can play. You have three options:

Continue to play and ignore the DR. I believe that much of the rants are people seeing what they expect to see, or trolling to take advantage of the anger being expressed. When there’s a fire, throwing gasoline on it won’t make the fire dept. come any faster, it will just make a bigger fire.

Stop playing and wait for the fixes. Two weeks, maybe a month later, check back and see if they have raised the DR threshold to the point where you will not be affected.

Stop playing. You always have the option to come back, but no one can make you. If there’s a game out there that you like better, it’s your right as a consumer to choose that game instead.

The option that does nothing constructive, however, is to keep shouting the same arguments. A dialogue is a two-way exchange of information. Arenanet has said they heard you, and are working on it. Continuing to yell as though they said nothing will not make the fixes come any faster. You’re just making more work for the mods who spend their days closing botting and DR rant threads.

Listen. Wait. Do something else if you must. But continuing to rant about this accomplishes nothing.

tolunart.2095:

… The option that does nothing constructive, however, is to keep shouting the same arguments. A dialogue is a two-way exchange of information. Arenanet has said they heard you, and are working on it. Continuing to yell as though they said nothing will not make the fixes come any faster. You’re just making more work for the mods who spend their days closing botting and DR rant threads.

Listen. Wait. Do something else if you must. But continuing to rant about this accomplishes nothing.

16 years of experience with previous MMO’s and previous MMO developers disagrees with you, tolunart. Specifically, those that rant the loudest and most often, -always- get their way.

vjek.4270:

tolunart.2095:

… The option that does nothing constructive, however, is to keep shouting the same arguments. A dialogue is a two-way exchange of information. Arenanet has said they heard you, and are working on it. Continuing to yell as though they said nothing will not make the fixes come any faster. You’re just making more work for the mods who spend their days closing botting and DR rant threads.

Listen. Wait. Do something else if you must. But continuing to rant about this accomplishes nothing.

16 years of experience with previous MMO’s and previous MMO developers disagrees with you, tolunart. Specifically, those that rant the loudest and most often, -always- get their way.

With no monthly fees required to play, Arenanet sets themselves apart as a different kind of company with a different kind of game. I sincerly hope that you are wrong.

Say, for example, that 25% of the game population stops playing in protest. A month later, they announce they have fixed the DR problem and the majority of those players come back. What have they lost? They did not lose a single subscription payment.

Even players who refuse to return nevereverever may come back after their butts stop hurting, when new content is released or when they get bored enough to dust off the disk and reinstall.

Nice to see where you are coming from tolunart. Although I think people have a right to be furious about the DR. I think people also have a right to vent their frustration on the forum, as this is after all one of the few outlets people have with ANET. I think people have a right to be pissy over only getting one semi vague response from ANET in 3 weeks. I think people have a right to be upset that some of the things ANET has said is not being shown in their actions.
However,
I dont think people should have the right to tell other people how to play. I dont think people should have the right to tell people that if they dont like it they can leave. I dont think people should jump to ANET’s defense on every little issue, even more so when ANET is clearly in the wrong. I especially dont think people should tell other people that they dont have a right to dissent.

What irks me most is the proposed time frame to fix this issue. All the while it’s the players that suffer.

Imagine that instead of coding in DR to catch potential exploits, they had instead just coded an alarm that went off in their offices that indicated that there was a potential exploit that needed to be investigated. The number of false alarms would have had them tweaking the dials in hours, not weeks. Instead they can take their sweet time about it because they aren’t the ones being inconvenienced.