Guild Wars 2

I have seen quite a few threads open up lately calling into question why the original posters, as a legitimate purchaser of a game, are ostracized from specific achievements or content because they don’t want to participate in a portion that is required in order to achieve the desired reward they are referencing.

IE:
- I don’t want to do W3 to achieve a Legendary.
- I cannot complete the clocktower to obtain an achievement.
- I do not want to run FOTM over and over to achieve Ascended gear.

Etc. You likely get the idea.

Now, this is not a troll post, in spite of what will inevitably follow as a response.

Have we stopped to consider why? I honestly am left dumbfounded reading threads like this, and cannot fathom the logic that was utilized in order to reach the conclusions driving their origins.

Do we not play video games for fun any more?

What is a game developer supposed to do when a large demographic of their playerbase considers, “Get everything for nothing” as their definition of fun? The situation that this leaves us in is with a game developer who is simultaneously challenged to appeal to two complete and total polar opposite sides of the gaming spectrum:

1) People who want everything, with a minimal amount of effort. (Effort being more commonly referred to under the new nomenclature of “grind,” as simply playing the game at your own rate to achieve the max level is not an acceptable venue of progression. They want to be the most powerful for the least effort.)

2) People who want very little, for an extreme amount of effort. (They don’t call it grind; they call it vertical progression, and it is “essential to MMOs.”)

Where does this leave your average gamer who simply wants to play the game, reach max level, and if there are some people a little stronger than him or her, well, thats just life?

Why do #1 and #2 automatically get to assume the future shape of the game by segregating the community and making it appear as though you are either with us or against us?

The current status of the game has problems, and they have been openly admitted in the recent Reddit AMA, but they are easily fixable.

1) Finish implementing Ascended gear as a stepping stool between exotic and legendary items.

2) Ensure Ascended gear is achievable in all facets of the game to prevent a single point of progression (Which lends credence to people who call progression “grinding.” If you can do anything in the game to achieve a stronger character, you can no longer refer to earning the gear as grinding as you are simply participating in the game.)

3) Ensure that the gap in strength between a fresh max leveled character and a veteran is not such that the fresh character could not concievably be ostracized from a portion of the game due to his inability to contribute on the level of the veteran (Which, so far, is moving along swimmingly. The power increase in current ascended items does not afford an automatic victory to any player in W3 or PVE.)

These are all very simple things to do. They are all on the “to-do” list, and Whiteside has told us they are being worked on as we speak.

So, why are people quitting? Why are people complaining? Why aren’t people happy with a game where developers are trying to comprimise between the two extremes and doing a pretty kitten good job of it from the view point of someone in the middle? (I have 400+ hours logged, 1 80, and I regularly participate in all facets of the game, and spend plenty of money on gems.)

Your money is still good at the trading post. Your mats will still contribute to the end product.

Ask yourself: if you aren’t having fun in the game, because you are only experiencing one facet of the game because thats where the rewards currently are, when you could be having fun playing another portion, who is really to blame for that?

I’ll put on my flamesuit now, for anyone that actually bothered to read this all.

And to Arenanet, thank you for trying. You are doing a good job with keeping your moderate playerbase happy by not bending too far in either direction. Please don’t buckle.

Respectfully,

Mr Bluebird.

While you have some decent arguments, you kind of ruined it when you called the rest of us unreasonable. Thank you for that.

Treeline.3865:

While you have some decent arguments, you kind of ruined it when you called the rest of us unreasonable. Thank you for that.

Sorry. That was not meant as an insult. It was a long write-up.

I will edit it to read “moderate.” Do not let a one word mistake ruin an entire discussion, as I posted it here for people to weigh in with their opinions.

I don’t think it’s as much quitting (no sub fee) as it is “wait and see”.

Lower play time (or start playing something else more) and keep an eye on what they do here. They don’t have to hate the game with all their might, but they also don’t have to play if they don’t agree with the direction the game seems to be going.

Me? I still play to have fun. If I’m not having fun, I move on.

I haven’t spent any money at all on the gem shop. I don’t see a need for extra inventory space really (I use our guild vault). I don’t want to play RNG with the Consortium chests. I don’t really see a cosmetic I like, and the town clothes get unequipped anyway at the slightest hint of being in combat – which for my class, Engineer, happens a lot.

I don’t see a need to buy gem for gold. I can make do with what I have.

I agree with you pretty much on all points, except I don’t think you should have edited the post to remove your suggestion that much of the playerbase is unreasonable.

I made a pretty similar post last night, in which I asked everyone why they were being so negative, and I simply suggested that the game is a work in progress and I don’t believe the devs’ goal is to trick you out of your money. It apparently got pretty heated and was closed before I got up this morning.

There is definitely some entitlement issues and this actually poses a great threat to the community due to the fact that these people are so out spoken. On the other hand I agree there are issues with communication in GW2 between the community and the DEVS. The gem store has been a key feature that has been driving people away since they keep adding these gambling items. They are not clear on a lot of things. A lot of people feel ripped off and never play the game again. I don’t think it’s a huge percentage probably like less than 10% of purchasers. However as each new event brings in these new games of chance that percentage adds up.

Yeah I’m in sort of a holding pattern, taking more a break and seeing how they hash this stuff out…. As much as I like fractals, I also like the ability to run regular dungeons. Enabling the ability to want to do a mix of both keeps it fresh.

I think there’s a problem with the gap mainly in that the gap is not equal… Ascended and Legendary gear should be a matter of progressing towards it through skill with maybe some need for some grinding…. but certainly not 500 of X, 300 of Y, 100 of Z which only has a certain percentage of dropping and needs you to insert A, B, and C in order to roll for it.

Because you can’t appease both sides. One wants to go west the other east. Anet says let’s go north instead. the end result neither gets what they want. That’s what will happen if you try and keep both horizontal and vertical player groups. They will be left with the indifferent people that don’t care.

Perhaps you don’t understand the difference between effort and time spent repeating activities. Let me illustrate:

Sometimes when soloing it is an effort to stay alive. I use every ability and all my timing and spatial skills to accomplish that.

Sometimes when attempting to obtain a specific piece of gear, it takes a very long time of doing the same dungeons over and over to get that gear.

Now do you understand?

Warning: super long response that should probably just be a blog entry with no tl:dr

Bluebird.1890:

I honestly am left dumbfounded reading threads like this, and cannot fathom the logic that was utilized in order to reach the conclusions driving their origins.

Do we not play video games for fun any more?

‘Fun’ is subjective.

I do not find repeating the same content a bunch of times fun. I have fun a couple times, because I am doing something new, then I realize it isn’t fun anymore … it is simply pushing a button to get loot.

So, after a while I realize that I am not playing the game to have fun.

Now, in that period of time I am playing the game and having fun, it would be awesome if I also got a reward (loot, title, whatever) for completing the objectives I just completed. A trophy that says “hey, I did this and had fun!”

For some reason, MMOs aren’t built like that. People will shout and point and say (as you did) that I “want something for nothing” or “want a reward for little/no effort”, etc.

Little effort? I just saved the world from a massive lobster invasion, why doesn’t that earn a reward? Wait …what?! To get a reward I have to stop the same lobster invasion 22+ more times? What logic is that?

“Hey, I caught the criminal. I’d like the reward money.”
- Heck no, you have to EARN it … we just let the dude go, you have to catch him 19 more times and then you’ve earned the reward.

You mention ‘effort’ … so I’ll toss this out: ‘Challenge’ is also subjective.

I do not find repeating the same content challenging. Fighting the same mechanics, or the same bosses (just with more HP) ‘challenging’. It is not ‘effort’ to me, it is mindlessly repeating while watching a movie/TV and practically sleeping through the content because we all have it memorized.

Because someone spent 5 hours repeating the same fight … that = effort? That means they earned something I didn’t?

Before the massively flawed analogy comes up: Sure, that works in the workplace … if you work for 8 hours and someone else works 6, you should get 2 more hours of pay then they do. .. but in MMOs, why are we rewarding people using the same formula? Why does reward have to = hours spent doing an activity? Games should not be = work.

Save the village? Here is your reward.
It should not be: Saved the village? Well … how many hours did you spend saving it? Ok here are your tokens that represent the amount of hours of work you put in … come back tomorrow and we’ll give you a few more. That is a job.

Now … I’ll use FotM to finish this up …

I like(d) FotM… they were interesting places with some new game mechanics. It was fun. Allowing me to kick the difficulty up a notch to try it again for better reward? That is nice too.

We beat it once … reward us. I try harder difficulty and we beat it? Reward us again.

Do NOT make me run it over and over 50+ times for a reward. That isn’t ‘fun’ gameplay, that is forcing me to perform work to “earn” my reward and that isn’t my idea of a game, or fun.

If single player RPGs can make fun gameplay that rewards me when I finish it the first time, why do MMOs base reward on mass repetition of the same content to “earn” the reward? Why are MMOs built to reward people that smash their head against the same content for hours?

Adding alternative avenues to earn Ascended gear (like there are different ways for exotics) will help fix some of the issue. I fear though, after seeing how many hours of grinding FotM (or how much in ecto & t6 mats are required) for the current Ascended equipment the ‘hours required’ to get Ascended in WvW or outside of FotM will take.

Conner.4702:

Because you can’t appease both sides. One wants to go west the other east. Anet says let’s go north instead. the end result neither gets what they want. That’s what will happen if you try and keep both horizontal and vertical player groups. They will be left with the indifferent people that don’t care.

^ Bingo. Can’t please everyone. Just pick your group and run with them. If I would have known this was the direction of the game I would have stayed away rather than be part of the grand experiment.

+1 Dominae.

Although I not only will put up with some repetition in MMOs, I actually enjoy some repetition, I do have limits to my tolerance for it and I have yet to find an MMO that didn’t test those limits. Getting to 80 is plenty of repetition for me, especially since I play alts and therefore intend to get to 80 far more than once.

Corvindi.5734:

Perhaps you don’t understand the difference between effort and time spent repeating activities. Let me illustrate:

Sometimes when soloing it is an effort to stay alive. I use every ability and all my timing and spatial skills to accomplish that.

Sometimes when attempting to obtain a specific piece of gear, it takes a very long time of doing the same dungeons over and over to get that gear.

Now do you understand?

Setting your belittling demeanor aside (Not sure if the mods will do the same), your argument would hold water if it weren’t already openly admitted that the amount of repeating for one piece of gear isn’t ideal and is being worked on.

But it has been.

So, while I do understand you, I also have to just look at your point and wonder why you are even attempting to make it.

Areanet has created a big mess, from my point of view some of the verticle progression people dont feel accomplished unless they have something that most dont have or very few have. The horizontal progression people favor gear not being gated and being available to everyone so no one feels left behind. So how do you make the two groups happy?

Facepunch.5710:

I agree with you pretty much on all points, except I don’t think you should have edited the post to remove your suggestion that much of the playerbase is unreasonable.

I made a pretty similar post last night, in which I asked everyone why they were being so negative, and I simply suggested that the game is a work in progress and I don’t believe the devs’ goal is to trick you out of your money. It apparently got pretty heated and was closed before I got up this morning.

I would agree with you if the intent of my post were to piss as many people off as possible, but I honestly would like to try and understand where these people are coming from.

Most of them (see the one I just replied to) just repeat the same things over and over again, even after they’ve already been acknowledged, like somehow this is going to make things change faster.

deborah.2068:

Areanet has created a big mess, from my point of view some of the verticle progression people dont feel accomplished unless they have something that most dont have or very few have. The horizontal progression people favor gear not being gated and being available to everyone so no one feels left behind. So how do you make the two groups happy?

The answer is Fractals of the Mist, where the content is only gated at a specific progression level and those who don’t wish to reach those levels do not have to, because they will afford little to no advantage to the players who ARE participating in them.

Bluebird.1890:

Corvindi.5734:

Perhaps you don’t understand the difference between effort and time spent repeating activities. Let me illustrate:

Sometimes when soloing it is an effort to stay alive. I use every ability and all my timing and spatial skills to accomplish that.

Sometimes when attempting to obtain a specific piece of gear, it takes a very long time of doing the same dungeons over and over to get that gear.

Now do you understand?

Setting your belittling demeanor aside (Not sure if the mods will do the same), your argument would hold water if it weren’t already openly admitted that the amount of repeating for one piece of gear isn’t ideal and is being worked on.

But it has been.

So, while I do understand you, I also have to just look at your point and wonder why you are even attempting to make it.

At least I didn’t call OP crazy.

Anyway, actions speak, words are just nice. We’ll see what happens with the grind.

Conner.4702:

Because you can’t appease both sides. One wants to go west the other east. Anet says let’s go north instead. the end result neither gets what they want. That’s what will happen if you try and keep both horizontal and vertical player groups. They will be left with the indifferent people that don’t care.

Except for the fact that there are players capable of understanding that the only realistic solution is to meet in the middle.

And we will keep playing. Thus, mine and my friends and my guilds continued presence in the game.

Well it’s a fair question of the OP.

And for me the answer is that it isn’t just one part of the game. The whole of the game is a disappointment to me. Lost Shores just was the proverbial straw and also broke my confidence in Anet as a game maker.

The world is beautifully made. No doubt about but it doesn’t pull me in.
The story line isn’t actually personal, is too far and few inbetween and the end is a total letdown.
Events, world completion and jump puzzles were great fun, but have little replay value for me. I know on my 2nd level 80 I couldn’t get myself to repeat over half of it.

So I got my gear together on my first 80 (mesmer) and was ableto find 1 armour set I liked.
My second level 80 (guardian) still has the HoM skins because there is nothing I like from any dungeon and this was a big problem for dungeons already. Why grind dungeons if the gear doesn’t look that great.

All in all, everything I loved in GW1, was not to be found in GW2 and I could’ve taken more time to get used to the game and maybe give it another chance but Lost Shores just slammed the door shut, cause the lack of massive endgame grind for gear gave me a much more forgiving approach.

So the TP didn’t work for weeks at the start, so we can’t trade directly. So there are still many bugged events and dungeons (go Arah) and DR pissed off a lot of people etc. There are various armour sets but they aren’t worth collecting (I had over 50 sets of elite armour in GW1 across my account, they were cool and fun to collect) and so the skill bar is simplistic and doesn’t give much freedom to really build skill bars your way. Cause you know, none of the weapon sets actually gave me 5 skills I all wanted and invulnerable mobs and dreary Orr that just has contested waypoints

etc
etc
etc…

Yeah it wasn’t really just Lost Shores that made me quit, but it was what tipped the balance and I just don’t trust em anymore, I don’t believe it when they say this game will go the right way in the future.

NaughtyProwler.8653:

Conner.4702:

Because you can’t appease both sides. One wants to go west the other east. Anet says let’s go north instead. the end result neither gets what they want. That’s what will happen if you try and keep both horizontal and vertical player groups. They will be left with the indifferent people that don’t care.

^ Bingo. Can’t please everyone. Just pick your group and run with them. If I would have known this was the direction of the game I would have stayed away rather than be part of the grand experiment.

Except, if you compromise and allow very specific vertical progression while still maintaining a low level of power gap between long time and short term players, you could appease both groups.

I guess that’s assuming that both groups are willing to make a compromise and admit that the only way for everyone to be happy to give way on one or two things in the direction they don’t want to go in.

The mentality that “It can’t happen, because I don’t want it to” is the problem, and it needs to go away.

Dominae: (I don’t want to quote you because… yeah, it was long. I did read it though.)

Chris did address in his responses to our questions the fact that he feels the requirements to obtain ascended gear are too high right now, and that the solution is more ways to obtain the same gear through different avenues.

I think that kind of addresses what you are saying.

Bluebird.1890:

Conner.4702:

Because you can’t appease both sides. One wants to go west the other east. Anet says let’s go north instead. the end result neither gets what they want. That’s what will happen if you try and keep both horizontal and vertical player groups. They will be left with the indifferent people that don’t care.

Except for the fact that there are players capable of understanding that the only realistic solution is to meet in the middle.

And we will keep playing. Thus, mine and my friends and my guilds continued presence in the game.

Sorry but no one ever has gotten better from compromise. You and your friends fall into the indifferent group or should I say apathic. Those on either side are actually capable of understanding how this can never work.

Conner.4702:

Bluebird.1890:

Conner.4702:

Because you can’t appease both sides. One wants to go west the other east. Anet says let’s go north instead. the end result neither gets what they want. That’s what will happen if you try and keep both horizontal and vertical player groups. They will be left with the indifferent people that don’t care.

Except for the fact that there are players capable of understanding that the only realistic solution is to meet in the middle.

And we will keep playing. Thus, mine and my friends and my guilds continued presence in the game.

Sorry but no one ever has gotten better from compromise. You and your friends fall into the indifferent group or should I say apathic. Those on either side are actually capable of understanding how this can never work.

Compromise defines successful relationships. It’s a sign of empathy and understanding, not “apathy.”

It’s how people stay married, stay friends, or learn to love something they hated at some point.

It is an absolutely fundamental concept for living a happy life.

Bluebird.1890:

Dominae: (I don’t want to quote you because… yeah, it was long. I did read it though.)

Chris did address in his responses to our questions the fact that he feels the requirements to obtain ascended gear are too high right now, and that the solution is more ways to obtain the same gear through different avenues.

I think that kind of addresses what you are saying.

Hence the wait and see.

Wait to see how (and if) they adjust the requirements to forge Ascended gear
Wait to see how they add Ascended gear to everywhere else
Wait to see if they really learned from the mistake they themselves admitted to making and not do it again.

I do the above, but keep on playing to have fun. Like I said, if I’m not (personally) having fun, I move on to do something else.

It’s more like

“I don’t want to do x pvp section of the game to get a legendary”

“I don’t want to play the market or buy third party gold to get a legendary”

ergo

“I have not much else to do, so I’m going to play a different game seen as events in this game tend to drive me away due to the server loads”

Slyder.9215:

Bluebird.1890:

Dominae: (I don’t want to quote you because… yeah, it was long. I did read it though.)

Chris did address in his responses to our questions the fact that he feels the requirements to obtain ascended gear are too high right now, and that the solution is more ways to obtain the same gear through different avenues.

I think that kind of addresses what you are saying.

Hence the wait and see.

Wait to see how (and if) they adjust the requirements to forge Ascended gear
Wait to see how they add Ascended gear to everywhere else
Wait to see if they really learned from the mistake they themselves admitted to making and not do it again.

I do the above, but keep on playing to have fun. Like I said, if I’m not (personally) having fun, I move on to do something else.

S’why I didn’t respond to your original post. I don’t really have any beef with your relatively innocuous mindset. It seems completely and totally reasonable to me.

“Play the fun parts. If it becomes less fun, stop playing.”

You sound like a smart guy.

Hellkaiser.6025:

It’s more like

“I don’t want to do x pvp section of the game to get a legendary”

“I don’t want to play the market or buy third party gold to get a legendary”

ergo

“I have not much else to do, so I’m going to play a different game seen as events in this game tend to drive me away due to the server loads”

You may be in the wrong thread, sir.

My post was directed at the people actively attacking Arenanet and trying to change the way the game is played for those of us who are enjoying it, not for people who got bored and quit.

That may be my fault for not being clear enough. I tend to get lost on tangents.

I have fun by not being psychologically manipulated with the skinner box.

arcaneclarity.5283:

I have fun by not being psychologically manipulated with the skinner box.

I don’t know why this made me LOL, but it did.

I think the skinner box works quite well, if it’s implemented in strict moderation. It should never be the sole driving force behind why we do something, though.

Take sPVP as a perfect example.

People don’t sPVP to up their rank. They sPVP to beat the crap out of eachother, and they have fun doing it.

But, there is that thought of “I may rank up, and get some cool looking items.”

It helps. But it’s not the sole driving force.

SPvP is kind of a different problem.

The new map (Temple of the Silent Storm) is good. However, playing nothing but Conquest maps does get old after a while. That’s in addition to all the class bugs – which gets more noticed in SPvP.

@ Op- interesting post and I have wondered this myself.

I think a lot of it might have to do with fear, uncertainty and doubt.
Many people loved the game as it was and when such a change happens so suddenly and unexpectedly, the 3 horsemen run rampant spreading confusion as they go.
The initial silence from the team at Anet and then the infamous post by Chris only added to this.
To the middle-ground type of player the AMA helped to put things in perspective. At least it did for me. I’ll wait and see if/how they make good on what they said though.
I am still playing much the same as ever- there are some things that frustrate me, sure but they will hopefully be fixed before too long.
It is still an awesome game that does so many things right, so yes, I will play.

The OP makes a good point… There are always two sides to any argument, but most people are somewhere in between. Personally, I’m hoping Anet doesn’t listen to the extremists on either side, but stick to their original idea, their original plan, their original dream: to make a kitten awesome game.

Corvindi, I agree with you 100%. What we need is ways to get good gear besides repetition: for example, winning one really hard battle instead of a whole bunch of kinda hard ones. Repetition does not equal fun; what I want are ways to get gear that are fun, but still challenging enough to make ascended valuable.

Bluebird.1890:

Dominae: (I don’t want to quote you because… yeah, it was long. I did read it though.)

Chris did address in his responses to our questions the fact that he feels the requirements to obtain ascended gear are too high right now, and that the solution is more ways to obtain the same gear through different avenues.

I think that kind of addresses what you are saying.

It does not address it, sadly. .. well, it addresses it, sure, but not in a satisfactory way for me personally. A grind is a grind. Making it slightly less of one still makes it a grind, and something I do not want to have to do for a reward.

Many people (myself included) dislike the ‘grind’ of the typical MMO genre. GW2 was touted as an MMO for people that dislike typical MMOs & grinds. (Fact.)

Now, they’re adding in the things from those ‘typical MMOs’ that those people came here to avoid. That obviously will not make those people happy.(Fact.)

Once you get people in the door, who are there because you said “we are NOT XYZ” and then start becoming XYZ, people are going to foam at the mouth.

Analogies are fun: I dislike mushrooms and am mildly allergic to them. If a restaurant says they’re “Mushroom Free” and I go there, I expect no mushrooms. If suddenly, after a couple months of me making them my go-to-place, I find ‘mushrooms everywhere’ I’m going to be upset.

Them putting out a press release that says they understand I hate mushrooms, and will look to tone it down … well that doesn’t help me. I’m anti-shroom, man. I came here because I’m anti-shroom.

… and if you say “well just eat around them” I’m going to scream.

So, Chris saying “yeah, grind sucks .. we’re looking to tone it down some though” does nothing for many people as it is folly to assume the new ways to achieve Ascended gear still won’t be a grind.

I like WvW … I do it a lot. Know how many pieces of WvW gear I have? One, and I could just now afford a second. WvW exotics are countless hours more expensive than crafted ones (unless you basically sit on an arrow cart and blast a zerg the whole time you are in there). I maxxed my crafting (2 professions to make myself gear) in less than 2 hours and made my exotics. I’ve got over 180 hours in WvW since the game started and can afford 2 & 1/2 exotic items.

Bluebird.1890:

I would agree with you if the intent of my post were to piss as many people off as possible, but I honestly would like to try and understand where these people are coming from.

Most of them (see the one I just replied to) just repeat the same things over and over again, even after they’ve already been acknowledged, like somehow this is going to make things change faster.

To be honest, this thread seems, now, to be a thinly veiled feint to “understand” in which you actually hope the thread fills with others that feel the same as you, allowing you to gang up on those that disagree.

Tips to not ticking people off:
- Don’t call them “these people”
- Remain open minded and sincere if you’re actually attempting to understand them
- Avoid attacks, especially when you weren’t attacked … this includes actively trying to avoid being defensive

Also: Understand that people in the restaurant allergic to shrooms aren’t going to take “we’ll make the meals 20% less shroomy!” as a satisfactory response to their complaints.

Bluebird, It is a mute point to talk with someone that cant understand if the only increase in stat was agony and they never brought this out in the game yes but when you cant acknowledge the stat increase all around does make it gated gear

I’m just dissapointed that so many people are jumping so fast to critique everything the company does, without waiting for their responses to questions, or giving them time to fix content.

And so many people keep saying they are “doing everything wrong”. Are you kidding? Of course some people aren’t going to like fractals, and how the dungeons work, or even the new gear.

But does everyone think they failed to make a HUGE landscape that is riddled with beautiful scenery, interesting DYNAMIC quests, fun NPCs, virtually grind-free progression from level 1-80, a reasonably interesting MULTI-PATH story, versatile and interesting classes and races, etc.

Yes, they are doing things wrong in some people’s eyes. Please stop freaking out and acting as if the game is worthless and completely sucks. It isn’t and it doesn’t.

They have made note that the ascended stuff wasn’t released in a proper way, and that they are going to fix that.

They’ve made note that they are going to review fractals and dungeons, and balance them.

They even made note that they are going to look into reducing the costs of some of the crafting recipes.

They are working on everything you are asking them to work on. Please just wait. Play the game, a lot of it is still tons of fun. They aren’t horrible people. Anyone remember the halloween extensions? The offers to compensate those who had DC issues in the Karka event? It’s clear that they want to make us all happy. Please give them a chance to do that for you too.

If you’ve already uninstalled your game and deleted your characters (as many have said they have done), then it’s going to be too late for you either way. I’m sorry for your loss.

Bluebird.1890:

I have seen quite a few threads open up lately calling into question why the original posters, as a legitimate purchaser of a game, are ostracized from specific achievements or content because they don’t want to participate in a portion that is required in order to achieve the desired reward they are referencing.

IE:
- I don’t want to do W3 to achieve a Legendary.
- I cannot complete the clocktower to obtain an achievement.
- I do not want to run FOTM over and over to achieve Ascended gear.

Etc. You likely get the idea.

Now, this is not a troll post, in spite of what will inevitably follow as a response.

Have we stopped to consider why? I honestly am left dumbfounded reading threads like this, and cannot fathom the logic that was utilized in order to reach the conclusions driving their origins.

Do we not play video games for fun any more?

With all due respect I think you get posts like that because they don’t find doing WvW or grinding FOTM fun. So where as they may want the item to an extent the value of said item is outweighed by their lack of fun .Heres the thing though , They still want the items and their disappointment in not having a fun way to get them can be a factor in driving them away from the game .

Bluebird.1890:

My post was directed at the people actively attacking Arenanet and trying to change the way the game is played for those of us who are enjoying it, not for people who got bored and quit.

They do this because history has taught them that communicating is effective. Communicating loudly with people agreeing with you is even more effective. I wouldn’t say the majority of negative criticism is attacking ANET, though. Lots of it is angry and has an" I didn’t get my way" vibe to it and maybe some of these angry people quit over it, but they said something in hopes that it would be discussed/debated/argued, agreed with, and acted upon. The rest is mostly innocuous posting with personal speech habits muddling the discussion; lots of “I think” or “I want” or “I feel” instead of “this is a good idea” or “this happened” or “this is why.”

Dominae.3146:

Bluebird.1890:

Dominae: (I don’t want to quote you because… yeah, it was long. I did read it though.)

Chris did address in his responses to our questions the fact that he feels the requirements to obtain ascended gear are too high right now, and that the solution is more ways to obtain the same gear through different avenues.

I think that kind of addresses what you are saying.

It does not address it, sadly. .. well, it addresses it, sure, but not in a satisfactory way for me personally. A grind is a grind. Making it slightly less of one still makes it a grind, and something I do not want to have to do for a reward.

Many people (myself included) dislike the ‘grind’ of the typical MMO genre. GW2 was touted as an MMO for people that dislike typical MMOs & grinds. (Fact.)

Now, they’re adding in the things from those ‘typical MMOs’ that those people came here to avoid. That obviously will not make those people happy.(Fact.)

Once you get people in the door, who are there because you said “we are NOT XYZ” and then start becoming XYZ, people are going to foam at the mouth.

Analogies are fun: I dislike mushrooms and am mildly allergic to them. If a restaurant says they’re “Mushroom Free” and I go there, I expect no mushrooms. If suddenly, after a couple months of me making them my go-to-place, I find ‘mushrooms everywhere’ I’m going to be upset.

Them putting out a press release that says they understand I hate mushrooms, and will look to tone it down … well that doesn’t help me. I’m anti-shroom, man. I came here because I’m anti-shroom.

… and if you say “well just eat around them” I’m going to scream.

So, Chris saying “yeah, grind sucks .. we’re looking to tone it down some though” does nothing for many people as it is folly to assume the new ways to achieve Ascended gear still won’t be a grind.

I like WvW … I do a lot. Know how many pieces of WvW gear I have? One, and I could just now afford a second. WvW exotics are countless hours more expensive than crafted ones (unless you basically sit on an arrow cart and blast a zerg the whole time you are in there). I maxxed my crafting (2 professions to make myself gear) in less than 2 hours and made my exotics. I’ve got over 180 hours in WvW since the game started and can afford 2.5 exotic items.

Bluebird.1890:

I would agree with you if the intent of my post were to piss as many people off as possible, but I honestly would like to try and understand where these people are coming from.

Most of them (see the one I just replied to) just repeat the same things over and over again, even after they’ve already been acknowledged, like somehow this is going to make things change faster.

To be honest, this thread seems, now, to be a thinly veiled feint to “understand” in which you actually hope the thread fills with others that feel the same as you, allowing you to gang up on those that disagree.

Tips to not ticking people off:
- Don’t call them “these people”
- Remain open minded and sincere if you’re actually attempting to understand them
- Avoid attacks, especially when you weren’t attacked … this includes actively trying to avoid being defensive

Also: Understand that people in the restaurant allergic to shrooms aren’t going to take “we’ll make the meals 20% less shroomy!” as a satisfactory response to their complaints.

Your analogy assumes that grind is an objective term, when it is subjective. Mushrooms are very easy to identify: If it is a mushroom, it is a mushroom. A restaurant can say “We are mushroom free!” because nobody can walk in and point at one of their pieces of broccoli, and call it a mushroom. They’d get laughed out of the restaurant.

This is not so for grind. People can misinterpret any part of the game that they don’t enjoy that has a reward for participating a “grind.” Anything that isn’t fun to some people get’s labeled “grind.” And with that, now Arenanet is guilty for going back on their word!

It doesn’t work that way.

I’ll be ignoring the latter part of your post, as it is not relevant. If I wanted to gang up on people, I’d move my character to Jade Quarry and do WvW. It’d be much more satisfying.

Archmortal.1027:

Bluebird.1890:

My post was directed at the people actively attacking Arenanet and trying to change the way the game is played for those of us who are enjoying it, not for people who got bored and quit.

They do this because history has taught them that communicating is effective. Communicating loudly with people agreeing with you is even more effective. I wouldn’t say the majority of negative criticism is attacking ANET, though. Lots of it is angry and has an" I didn’t get my way" vibe to it and maybe some of these angry people quit over it, but they said something in hopes that it would be discussed/debated/argued, agreed with, and acted upon. The rest is mostly innocuous posting with personal speech habits muddling the discussion; lots of “I think” or “I want” or “I feel” instead of “this is a good idea” or “this happened” or “this is why.”

I apologize for lumping the people with good intentions and manners into a category in which they are juxtaposed with people who are behaving like entitled jerks.

My OP was more directed at the posts that you open and can easily acknowledge regardless of which side you are on that the person has nobody but themselves in mind.

I’ll avoid linking one directly as I’d prefer this remain a relatively friendly post, as it has so far.

Adine.2184:

Bluebird.1890:

I have seen quite a few threads open up lately calling into question why the original posters, as a legitimate purchaser of a game, are ostracized from specific achievements or content because they don’t want to participate in a portion that is required in order to achieve the desired reward they are referencing.

IE:
- I don’t want to do W3 to achieve a Legendary.
- I cannot complete the clocktower to obtain an achievement.
- I do not want to run FOTM over and over to achieve Ascended gear.

Etc. You likely get the idea.

Now, this is not a troll post, in spite of what will inevitably follow as a response.

Have we stopped to consider why? I honestly am left dumbfounded reading threads like this, and cannot fathom the logic that was utilized in order to reach the conclusions driving their origins.

Do we not play video games for fun any more?

With all due respect I think you get posts like that because they don’t find doing WvW or grinding FOTM fun. So where as they may want the item to an extent the value of said item is outweighed by their lack of fun .Heres the thing though , They still want the items and their disappointment in not having a fun way to get them can be a factor in driving them away from the game .

I can understand this.

But, then, what IS fun for these people? Where is the positive reinforcement for the parts of the game that they do enjoy, and would like to see more of? All I see on these forums is “Stop this. It’s bad.”

Bugs and class feedback aside (I see plenty of good feedback there,) why aren’t we seeing some actual feedback from this kind of player besides “This is a grind and I hate it?”

what is forcing any of you to grind at all? I keep hearing that grinding is being forced and Im wondering what is forcing you to grind?

Bluebird.1890:

I’ll be ignoring the latter part of your post, as it is not relevant. If I wanted to gang up on people, I’d move my character to Jade Quarry and do WvW. It’d be much more satisfying.

You mean Stormbluff Isles, right? We’ve been handing Jade Quarry its own butt for almost a month now.

Ditton.3149:

what is forcing any of you to grind at all? I keep hearing that grinding is being forced and Im wondering what is forcing you to grind?

Hahaha. I wrote up all of this nonsense in huge formats totally too verbose, and you come in and sum up what I was trying to say in two questions.

Why are people grinding? The power variation between ascended and exotic is so minimal that it isn’t really worth the time if you aren’t having some semblance of fun doing it.

And if your response is, “Because there is nothing else to do,” then I think it may be time for you to do something else for a while. Give the game a break?

Archmortal.1027:

Bluebird.1890:

I’ll be ignoring the latter part of your post, as it is not relevant. If I wanted to gang up on people, I’d move my character to Jade Quarry and do WvW. It’d be much more satisfying.

You mean Stormbluff Isles, right? We’ve been handing Jade Quarry its own butt for almost a month now.

I’m ON SBI Are we actually winning this match? I’m pretty sure JQ and SoS were stomping us last week. Every single time i got on I had outmanned up.

EDIT: ACK this is offtopic, don’t distract me or derail the thread. I don’t want it closed!

Bluebird.1890:

Corvindi.5734:

Perhaps you don’t understand the difference between effort and time spent repeating activities. Let me illustrate:

Sometimes when soloing it is an effort to stay alive. I use every ability and all my timing and spatial skills to accomplish that.

Sometimes when attempting to obtain a specific piece of gear, it takes a very long time of doing the same dungeons over and over to get that gear.

Now do you understand?

Setting your belittling demeanor aside (Not sure if the mods will do the same), your argument would hold water if it weren’t already openly admitted that the amount of repeating for one piece of gear isn’t ideal and is being worked on.

But it has been.

So, while I do understand you, I also have to just look at your point and wonder why you are even attempting to make it.

Seeing as people protested against current situation, which Arenanet admitted isn’t ideal and is being worked on, your argument does not hold water either, so i have to just look at your point and wonder, why are you even attempting to make it.

Bluebird.1890:

Your analogy assumes that grind is an objective term, when it is subjective. Mushrooms are very easy to identify: If it is a mushroom, it is a mushroom. A restaurant can say “We are mushroom free!” because nobody can walk in and point at one of their pieces of broccoli, and call it a mushroom. They’d get laughed out of the restaurant.

This is not so for grind. People can misinterpret any part of the game that they don’t enjoy that has a reward for participating a “grind.” Anything that isn’t fun to some people get’s labeled “grind.” And with that, now Arenanet is guilty for going back on their word!

It doesn’t work that way.

And here we have the brunt of the argument. (And yes it does work that way.)

Yes, ‘grind’ is subjective. As I said above: as is ‘fun’ and ‘challenge’ and ‘effort’.

The whole gaming genre (and entertainment industry really) is built on subjective terminology.

Society … and in a business sense, your customers … they decide what the norms are, and define those subjective terms. “Mass subjectivity” happens … to the point where the subjective is nearly the objective.

If 1,000 people are at a concert, and all of them say “man that was terrible” … it was terrible. If the band shouts from the stage, saying it wasn’t terrible … well, they’re entitled to their subjective opinions but the people have spoken. Terrible just happened.

Obviously not everyone is going to be in agreement. BUT, sooner or later you’ll find that fulcrum point. Maybe 300 people think the concert is terrible. 700 liked it to different degrees though. Is that success? Either way, you should try better next time.

What if 700 people found it terrible? Is it worth listening to then? Do we still dismiss it as “well that is just their subjective/opinion.”

I’ll be ignoring the latter part of your post, as it is not relevant. If I wanted to gang up on people, I’d move my character to Jade Quarry and do WvW. It’d be much more satisfying.

You’d be better off joining servers that fight against Jade Quarry and then insulting the Jade Quarry WvW folks … that seems to ensure you’re in the majority of ganger-uppers.

Astral: I’m not sure if you’re trying to offend me, make an Inception reference, or just mashed your hands against the keyboard and this is what came out.

I’m not even really sure what you’re trying to say at all, actually.

I don’t have an argument, besides “Stop complaining, it’s being worked on.”

/boggle

To bluebird.

Im not going to pretend to know what the person you responded to defines as grind, but for me personally, doing the same action a long time for the sole reason as acquiring something is a grind.

Obviosly it has some subjectivity in it even then. But its quite objective to say that running full fractal runs 20 times for one item is not fun, atleast when a good chunk of the playerbase is concerned.(And i actually like fractals)

Dominae.3146:

Bluebird.1890:

Your analogy assumes that grind is an objective term, when it is subjective. Mushrooms are very easy to identify: If it is a mushroom, it is a mushroom. A restaurant can say “We are mushroom free!” because nobody can walk in and point at one of their pieces of broccoli, and call it a mushroom. They’d get laughed out of the restaurant.

This is not so for grind. People can misinterpret any part of the game that they don’t enjoy that has a reward for participating a “grind.” Anything that isn’t fun to some people get’s labeled “grind.” And with that, now Arenanet is guilty for going back on their word!

It doesn’t work that way.

And here we have the brunt of the argument. (And yes it does work that way.)

Yes, ‘grind’ is subjective. As I said above: as is ‘fun’ and ‘challenge’ and ‘effort’.

The whole gaming genre (and entertainment industry really) is built on subjective terminology.

Society … and in a business sense, your customers … they decide what the norms are, and define those subjective terms. “Mass subjectivity” happens … to the point where the subjective is nearly the objective.

If 1,000 people are at a concert, and all of them say “man that was terrible” … it was terrible. If the band shouts from the stage, saying it wasn’t terrible … well, they’re entitled to their subjective opinions but the people have spoken. Terrible just happened.

Obviously not everyone is going to be in agreement. BUT, sooner or later you’ll find that fulcrum point. Maybe 300 people think the concert is terrible. 700 liked it to different degrees though. Is that success? Either way, you should try better next time.

What if 700 people found it terrible? Is it worth listening to then? Do we still dismiss it as “well that is just their subjective/opinion.”

I’ll be ignoring the latter part of your post, as it is not relevant. If I wanted to gang up on people, I’d move my character to Jade Quarry and do WvW. It’d be much more satisfying.

You’d be better off joining servers that fight against Jade Quarry and then insulting the Jade Quarry WvW folks … that seems to ensure you’re in the majority of ganger-uppers.

See, now THIS is interesting.

It sounds like, in your opinion, the best solution here would be an avenue upon which we can actually judge the most popular opinion of the community instead of assuming the vocal forum contributors and Reddit community are the voice of the game.

Maybe a platform upon which we could vote for changes in gameplay design?

I like that a lot, actually.

Nabbis:

Luckily for you, sir, the designers agree (At least, based on their most recent input from the AMA.)

Proposed solutions so far are allowing you to achieve the same rewards through different venues, and reducing the costs themselves. Thus, reducing the grind.