Lets talk Skills

Lets talk Skills

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Sinifair.1026

Sinifair.1026

Hey, everyone.
So, today I saw Colin Johanson talking about the plans for 2013, and personally I’m excited because he talks about making more Dynamic Events, in other words: more content for each zone, make it rewarding for PvE’ers to go out into the world and experience things at random. There will be improvements for PvP as well, whether it is the casual or the WvW.

Now, whether you are just strolling through Tyria or battling it out in PvP, I think that most of us can agree that more skills would be nice, and here is why I think so.

PvP: PvP-wise I enjoyed the very few battles that I tried in Guild Wars 1.
I choose to say “very few” because I found it incredibly hard to win over the hardcore PvP’ers in Guild Wars 1, so I gave it up pretty quickly. Now, point is: The key to winning in Guild Wars 1 was having a proper build that worked for you. There were tons of skills that worked in different combinations, and you had the chance for making a build that really suited your playstyle. – In other words: I would like it a lot, if my build was not determined by which weapon I am holding, but rather that I choose which skills works for me as a player.

PvE: Since I was no good in PvP in the first Guild Wars I took to PvE’ing which is just more like “my thing”. But also in PvE I liked to be able to try out different combinations and find the skills that I really liked using (like shadow-step with a Warrior/Assassin build). The word “build” really says it all: You have the chance to “build” your character yourself, and not only plot-wise in the personal storyline but also skill-wise you get to choose what kind of character you are.

In conclusion I would like to say that in PvP builds should not be choosing which weapons you want to fight with, but also which skills, and for PvE’ers (and roleplayers, I’d dare say) it would be very nice getting to choose not only your character’s personality but also define through the skills that you use, what kind of person your character is.

- Let me know what you guys think.
Would it be too complicated in PvP to have to try out different builds, or is it just what some of you hardcore competetive players need?
Any feedback is, as always, welcome.

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Posted by: Sinifair.1026

Sinifair.1026

If some of you guys ever tried WoW, you felt like you got stronger as you progressed.
As in: The skills you have in the first few levels (or even lvl 30 where we get the Elite Skills in GW2) were not strong enough to beat the foes we had yet to encounter.

The skills I’m using to beat centaurs are the exact same abilities I later use to beat dragons, and that is one of the reasons I want more skills.
- To feel like my characters strength also progresses.

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Posted by: Animando.7956

Animando.7956

If some of you guys ever tried WoW, you felt like you got stronger as you progressed.
As in: The skills you have in the first few levels (or even lvl 30 where we get the Elite Skills in GW2) were not strong enough to beat the foes we had yet to encounter.

The skills I’m using to beat centaurs are the exact same abilities I later use to beat dragons, and that is one of the reasons I want more skills.
- To feel like my characters strength also progresses.

Let me troll about this: I played a Priest in WoW. The “new” stronger skills you get as you level up are the same one you have at level 10 (more or less) > example : mind blast rank 1 → mind blast rank 2 → mind blast rank 3 → mind blast rank 4 → …
OMG so much diversity. That was so dumb they removed that recently.

In GW2 you feel that your character progress by getting new traits and better gear quality (blue level 10 > green level 20 > yellow level 50> orange level 70).

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Posted by: piitb.7635

piitb.7635

Honestly they have many ways they can go on this.

Yes, skills do seem to drag abit after 80 levels of using the same 5 main skills.

The quick fix of course is to add new weapon types so people have something new to use.

But in the long run, we are going to need something other than the default skills. But there is plenty they could do on this.

Like for example, skill points can “upgrade” weapon skills. Such as dropping a bunch of skill points into a weapon skill increases its power or alters its ability.

Or they could put in another tier of traits, and the 40th point of a trait tree, the player gets a new set of weapon skills for a particular weapon.

Also, skill hunting. This could easily be implemented via signet of captures purchased and used after zone events. That grants new utility, healing or elite skills.

And there is always the idea of multi-classing. This of course is probably the hardest route to take because of balancing, but it’s feasible. Like for example you keep your main classes core abilities in F1-F4 but you can mix and match your weapon skills. But the mix and matching has to match the corresponding buttons of another class. Meaning if your a thief wanting engineer pistol skills, you can only change out the thief’s #1 pistol skill with engineers #1 pistol skill. This way you couldn’t just take engineers best skills and call it a day.

This idea for multiclassing could make for strange combos. Melee mesmer with a great sword. Thief with a shortbow that is actually not aoe. Necros running around with thief dagger skills. Elementalist running around with a mesmer staff attunement. Not all of them will be effective. And it will take a bit of retooling to make sure main class mechanics still work, but it could work.

(edited by piitb.7635)

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

Always. They MUST add the ability for us to select our first five skills in the first expansion! That or GTFO!

That is called switching weapons that your using. If you mean to keep the weapon but switch the first skills then you would comply brake the game you will have class who have nothing but 5 burst dmg skills nearly “one” shotting ppl or even worst having 5 stealth skills. Simply put having the ability to chose what a weapon dose is not doable in this game. If any thing its good you have to deal with a set skill for 1/2 because then you have to chose a weapon off its attk type and its skills.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA

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Posted by: Sinifair.1026

Sinifair.1026

Let me troll about this: I played a Priest in WoW. The “new” stronger skills you get as you level up are the same one you have at level 10 (more or less) > example : mind blast rank 1 -> mind blast rank 2 -> mind blast rank 3 -> mind blast rank 4 -> …
OMG so much diversity. That was so dumb they removed that recently.

In GW2 you feel that your character progress by getting new traits and better gear quality (blue level 10 > green level 20 > yellow level 50> orange level 70).

I don’t know when you began to play WoW, but back in my day you got stronger spells, skills etc. depending on your character.
- The current gameplay of WoW is worsened significantly.

Getting new traits in GW2 does not remove the fact that I am using all the weapon skills I had collected from lvl 1-20 on centaurs as well as dragons.
- My point is that it seems like I might as well go fight dragons from the beginning then. I want to feel like my character recieves more knowledge on fighting as he progresses through the world.
- I had that experience back when I played WoW. (Yeah, of course there were some of the same skills, but you recieved way more after the first twenty levels than I feel like I do in Guild Wars 2)

- Anyhow, my main reason for wanting more skills is so I don’t tire out on the combat in the game. More skills does not necessarily mean in-equality. It does mean different builds, yeah. But it also means different play-styles and having the option of choosing which skills, which playstyle fits you.
That is why I want this feature in the game.

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Posted by: Sinifair.1026

Sinifair.1026

That is called switching weapons that your using. If you mean to keep the weapon but switch the first skills then you would comply brake the game you will have class who have nothing but 5 burst dmg skills nearly “one” shotting ppl or even worst having 5 stealth skills. Simply put having the ability to chose what a weapon dose is not doable in this game. If any thing its good you have to deal with a set skill for 1/2 because then you have to chose a weapon off its attk type and its skills.

I knew this would come up, but there is, fortunately, an answer to that as well.
- In Guild Wars 1 you could have ONE Elite Skill to your build (The skill bar consisted of eight slots and you could only have one elite skill at a time. And no, it is not the same thing in Guild Wars 2, believe me)

- You could limit the burst damage skills, option one in my repetoir.
OR you could let them have it. The burst damage skills gives the players some form of warning before it is executed. You could have a player running around with five burst damage skills, but doing no damage whatsoever, due to dodging.

- I would like to see some variation to the skills for one weapon. For one: I personally never liked warriors (or Guardians for that matter) that thought that swinging their two handed sword around going “I’m a Whirlwind” was a good idea. That is not how I picture my character. If he had an attack dealing not as much damage as the whirlwind skill would over time, but then were quicker to use. You see where I’m getting at? I want to be able to define my character in the game world, also through my skills.

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

That is called switching weapons that your using. If you mean to keep the weapon but switch the first skills then you would comply brake the game you will have class who have nothing but 5 burst dmg skills nearly “one” shotting ppl or even worst having 5 stealth skills. Simply put having the ability to chose what a weapon dose is not doable in this game. If any thing its good you have to deal with a set skill for 1/2 because then you have to chose a weapon off its attk type and its skills.

I knew this would come up, but there is, fortunately, an answer to that as well.
- In Guild Wars 1 you could have ONE Elite Skill to your build (The skill bar consisted of eight slots and you could only have one elite skill at a time. And no, it is not the same thing in Guild Wars 2, believe me)

- You could limit the burst damage skills, option one in my repetoir.
OR you could let them have it. The burst damage skills gives the players some form of warning before it is executed. You could have a player running around with five burst damage skills, but doing no damage whatsoever, due to dodging.

- I would like to see some variation to the skills for one weapon. For one: I personally never liked warriors (or Guardians for that matter) that thought that swinging their two handed sword around going “I’m a Whirlwind” was a good idea. That is not how I picture my character. If he had an attack dealing not as much damage as the whirlwind skill would over time, but then were quicker to use. You see where I’m getting at? I want to be able to define my character in the game world, also through my skills.

Think of it this way a class like ele they have 4 elements to work with 4 set of 5 skills if an Ele could chose all of these skills do you know what hell there would be? Think bunker build Ele is bad now just think an ele who can use Aura as if they are D/D but have 1,200 ranges attks and about 4 jump skills. Even beyond that think about having a GS doing ranges attks on a War or even a Dagger on a thf (1 skill) it will comply brake from the feeling that your in a world of its own and becoming nothing more then a moded out game. More of a i happen to have something in my hand that dose nothing what it should be doing heck you could have a rock in your hand doing all the GS skills for a War it would be silly at best death to the game at worst.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA

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Posted by: Erasculio.2914

Erasculio.2914

This will be an interesting test for ArenaNet. We have some vocal players asking for more skills, with the argument that “more is always better!”.

Of course, that’s a very flawed argument, and Guild Wars 1 has proved how having too many skills is actually worse than having few skills.

The big question is: will ArenaNet chose the more inteligent and more restrained route this time, and avoid adding too many skills to GW2, or will they again try to pick the “OMG so cool!” path that ultimately led to the death of GW1?

If some of you guys ever tried WoW, you felt like you got stronger as you progressed.

There’s a very interesting article in GamaSutra, here, about how many players jump from MMO to MMO seeking a copy of their first online world. Those players often don’t realize it themselves, but they keep moving from MMO to MMO, asking for more and more features from their first online world. However, they are never satisfied, even when those features are implemented, due to how no other game will be a perfect copy of their original MMO.

This is a phenomen ArenaNet has to understand, so they realize that they will never please someone who doesn’t want to play GW2, rather wants to play some other MMO.

“I think that players are starting to mature past the point of wanting to be on that
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons

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Posted by: Sinifair.1026

Sinifair.1026

I would like to take time to talk a bit about skills in the first Guild Wars, so those of you who haven’t tried that can get a picture of what I am getting at.

Jski.6180: Take it into account that so many games have had variation to skills and been successful, so saying that it would kill a game or make it seem silly is something you might want to reconsider. – I have been replaying many games to find out what worked and what didn’t, but I think that more skills to choose from would suit Guild Wars 2.

- Now, about Guild Wars 1.
You had a primary profession. Lets say: Warrior.
Then you had a secondary profession that could be swapped later during the game. You’d choose the first secondary and get that for free, but the others had to be bought with in game money. Nothing too serious.

The Skill bar in GW consisted of 8 slots, so you had to choose your skills tactically. Not all skills could be used with one weapon as a warrior for example, and not all skills would be for attacking. Some would boost the armor of yourself and allies, other skills would only give yourself buffs, etc.
- There were tons of builds in one profession alone, and since you had two professions, with the restriction being that you couldn’t get the Elite Skills of the secondary profession.

- This meant that there were many builds that worked for many different situations. I never found one to be particularly better than the other. Mesmer’s could cut off my supply of adrenaline, which I would need for some skills, so having skills that used energy would be wise to have as a backup. But Mesmer’s could also cut of the supply of energy and tap it, so balancing it was usually how I went about it. I could have gone for some of the most powerful skills, but one Mesmer could wreck it for me, if I went all adrenaline, for example.

It is a simple example of something more complex, but you get the idea.
- So as a Warrior I had to take the Mesmer into account. The counterplay feature in Guild Wars 1 is that a Mesmer could counter my skills in one way, but even though he would cut off my supply of adrenaline, I could counter back such a skill by using energy based attacks.

It was fun, because it meant that a strong build could be broken, if someone had a build to counter it. In PvP that meant that players really had to work together as a team, and the PvP was very good in GW, as to my experience.

- This is why I also think that (with restrictions) giving people the possibility of making a build, but also discover its weaknesses a fun feature in Guild Wars 2.
There is no secondary profession so it would be simpler. I think with the right balance and restriction to more powerful skills, it would work very well.

As many old people say: “Young people needs structure and boundaries.” so if GW2 takes this into account, it could improve on the future gameplay.

(edited by Sinifair.1026)

Lets talk Skills

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Posted by: Sinifair.1026

Sinifair.1026

This will be an interesting test for ArenaNet. We have some vocal players asking for more skills, with the argument that “more is always better!”.

Of course, that’s a very flawed argument, and Guild Wars 1 has proved how having too many skills is actually worse than having few skills.

The big question is: will ArenaNet chose the more inteligent and more restrained route this time, and avoid adding too many skills to GW2, or will they again try to pick the “OMG so cool!” path that ultimately led to the death of GW1?

If some of you guys ever tried WoW, you felt like you got stronger as you progressed.

There’s a very interesting article in GamaSutra, here, about how many players jump from MMO to MMO seeking a copy of their first online world. Those players often don’t realize it themselves, but they keep moving from MMO to MMO, asking for more and more features from their first online world. However, they are never satisfied, even when those features are implemented, due to how no other game will be a perfect copy of their original MMO.

This is a phenomen ArenaNet has to understand, so they realize that they will never please someone who doesn’t want to play GW2, rather wants to play some other MMO.

An interesting study, and one I am familiar with.
- However, WoW was my first MMO experience, but I have enjoyed many of the features in Guild Wars 2 to a greater extend, and I am still going to be playing.
Personally I would want to see more skills in GW2, not because there were more skills in WoW, but because I feel combat growing repetitive. Mobs in the world is killed by the same tactical approach, which was not the case in Guild Wars 1. There were different ways to approach a foe, and yeah, there are some to GW2 but I hope to see the tactical approach improved.

Yes, I am using tactical approach a lot. It also emphasises the counterplay feature in a game. It’s like playing a game of chess. There are different tactics, but there are also different tactics for countering those tactics. (No, GW2 should not have chess-like combat.)
- I hope you get the concept of counterplay, because it makes a game both challenging and fun (Not challenging in the “The boss can one shot you, so just dodge when you see him preparing an attack and you’ll be fine” kind of challenging).

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Posted by: Sinifair.1026

Sinifair.1026

This will be an interesting test for ArenaNet. We have some vocal players asking for more skills, with the argument that “more is always better!”.

Of course, that’s a very flawed argument, and Guild Wars 1 has proved how having too many skills is actually worse than having few skills.

The big question is: will ArenaNet chose the more inteligent and more restrained route this time, and avoid adding too many skills to GW2, or will they again try to pick the “OMG so cool!” path that ultimately led to the death of GW1?

If there was a death to GW1, btw, it would be when a lot of players left for GW2.
- The game had a huge success, and many people were playing, some have even left GW2 to go back playing the first game.

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Posted by: Erasculio.2914

Erasculio.2914

This meant that there were many builds that worked for many different situations. I never found one to be particularly better than the other.

This is blatantly false. Often players found skill combinations that were simply better than everything else they could use; very often, we would see players using incredibly bad skill combinations, making bad players to be huge liabilities. It was such as an issue that, when we were given the ability of seeing the skill bar of other players, groups would often demand a player to use a specific skill bar to do a specific content, or refuse to accept players using a skill bar someone in the group didn’t agree with.

It was fun, because it meant that a strong build could be broken, if someone had a build to counter it. In PvP that meant that players really had to work together as a team, and the PvP was very good in GW, as to my experience.

What you describe was called “Build Wars”, and it was one of the aspects that ruined GW1’s PvP. A strong build that could be destroyed by a specific counter build often led to the following:

Team A has the strong build:

  • Team B has the specific counter: they win effortlessly.
  • Team B does not have the specific counter: they lose, no matter how well they play.

This was called “Build Wars” since what defined victory or loss was not the skill of those involved, rather if they had the specific counter or not. This was incredibly bad for GW1’s PvP, and all those familiar with the game knew about this issue.

In the end, having too many skills made it impossible for ArenaNet to keep Guild Wars 1 balanced, which killed the game.

“I think that players are starting to mature past the point of wanting to be on that
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons

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Posted by: Sinifair.1026

Sinifair.1026

Counterplay is never a bad thing, and there was no such thing as a build that could counter every possible foe coming your way. I’ve played the first Guild Wars and also the PvP to some degree. The way you just set it up was nothing like what I experienced, or how other players I’ve met talked about it. (The only ones who said it was bad were mostly haters, or some who liked WoW or other MMO’s better. And no, I’m not implying that you are either).
- But if I should conclude on your comments, Erasculio, then we need not as many skills in Guild Wars 2 as in its predecessor, but some variation should be implemented and the skills would have to be balanced accordingly.
- As already said, I feel that combat can grow very stale, and it is also an issue that has made many of my friends leave the game, who were otherwise very enthusiastic about it.

- It is not that I want an unbalanced game, because there is nothing worse (Playing against a frost mage in WoW’s PvP is impossible as a Warrior). I want to see some variation because (once again) I feel the combat growing stale using the same five skills (I don’t feel that the utility skills and traits is a tactical challenge to set up). This also means that I try to avoid unnecessary encounters which means that I don’t get out to explore some possibly awesome places in Tyria.
- Also I would like for some of those friends of mine to come back and play. But they don’t feel challenged, since the skills are already chosen for you.

- I want to enjoy all the aspects of the game, and that includes the combat system, but a good combat system has variety to it (And no, I don’t think that GW2 has enough variety in the combat system). I like playing with Two-Handed swords, but I am not fond of all my abilities with the weapon as a guardian. Hence my post here.

(edited by Sinifair.1026)

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Posted by: Dante.1508

Dante.1508

I’m not sure about skills getting tougher but the plain ole lack of them in GW2 to me is a huge issue, i loved the fact GW1 had so many skills i could choose from and had various builds i could use with them..

In GW2 the skills do seem weak and many are downright pointless or completely broken/bugged making whole classes weaker and unbalancing game play a lot..

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Posted by: Animando.7956

Animando.7956

- Now, about Guild Wars 1.

You had a primary profession. Lets say: Warrior.
Then you had a secondary profession

Well not the best example: the Warrior had so little energy he could only use 1x skill of his secondary (a condition/hexes clearing one most of the time). And frankly secondaries were underused because it cost DPS (limited attribute points)

There were tons of builds in one profession alone, and since you had two professions, with the restriction being that you couldn’t get the Elite Skills of the secondary profession

It’s actually the runes and the main Characteristic you couldn’t access

This meant that there were many builds that worked for many different situations. I never found one to be particularly better than the other.

I have spent hours in Arenas (as a mesmer mainly) and there were builds totally OP it was nearly impossible to counter. Illusion Mesmer vs Warrior -> Warrior loses every time. Cause the Mesmer could block and blind every attack while dealing HUGE damage.

I find that weapon fixed skills is what make GW2 unique. It forces you to make compromises since it’s impossible to have a perfect build. And that’s fine. Because perfect builds tend to be imbalanced.

(edited by Animando.7956)

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Posted by: Sinifair.1026

Sinifair.1026

Animando, you speak as though PvP was one against one, and were it like that then I agree, there were classes that could overpower others, (BTW a warrior using a build with “Warrior’s Endurance” could gain energy almost as quickly as spending it, but yeah, the Warrior didn’t work as well as an Elementalist par example. ) but while one mesmer against one warrior would be a battle easily won, one mesmer against five would not be a cakewalk, and two teams playing against each other would both have fair chances of winning.

- I checked up on some of the most popular PvP games, incl. Dota, League of Legends, etc. and found that there are certain characters that when set up against each other one on one is an unbalanced fight. However, the character the would do badly in some cases in a one on one fight had skills that could turn the tide of the battle when fighting as a team, thus again bringing me back to the element of PvP as a team effort towards victory.

This is also why I think it could work in Guild Wars 2. Sure, there would be battles harder fought than others but I experienced it being a matter of working together with people as a team.
- I hope that kind of clears me as ignorant in some of you guys’ eyes.

These games are fun to play because there is the aspect of using the character tactically. (Warriors in GW2 with traits set to increase Vitality and Healpower can regenerate enough life to be almost unbeatable in one on one combat, and even two against one. Just saying.)

If a game were totally balanced, wouldn’t PvP battles just end in a draw? (No, of course not, there is still a matter of teamwork, I know).
- I just feel like I know what to expect from a Guardian holding a staff, for example, whereas I would like to deduct what I can expect and try to make a build suiting me.
The same goes for when I PvE: I would like a build that suits my playstyle. (I like Two-Handed Swords, but not all the skills that come with it, for example).

In my opinion the game would be able to handle more skills.

(edited by Sinifair.1026)