Guild Wars 2

OR From a Hilly Hike to a Climb Up a Sheer Cliff

I have played Guild Wars since Autumn of 2005. I have played Guild Wars 2 since Beta Weekend 2. I have twelve alts, three of which began their lives in the headstart period. Let’s get that out of the way.

Outside of a few of them, I play mostly casually. I like to take my time and enjoy the sights and sounds and smells of Tyria. I have games that I have not yet beaten, DOZENS, because I adore getting immersed and lost in them. GW2 is devilish because it has tickled that fancy of mine.

That said, I came into the patch with a wide open mind. A lot of changes were coming and the fundamentals of the game would be changed for good. I welcomed the wardrobe, the dye consolidation, and the megaserver. If nothing else, towns are a lot livelier now. I adore seeing the world alive with players.

But here is the rub—traits. Before the patch, progression was very gradual, but it was there. Every level you’d have a shiny new trait point to assign to a line of your choosing. You’d incrementally increase your basic stats and work towards minor and major traits as a greater goal. What is missing now is that incremental increase that kept you focused or gave you the idea to try something else.

In my opinion, there was absolutely zero reason to disembowel the trait progression as it was. All it did was turn levels 11-30 into flyover country and greatly inhibited the capabilities of younger characters to make their way through the wilds of Tyria. I was overjoyed when I was finally able to unlock my first major trait on my mesmer, because her burdens became that much easier to shoulder. That was at level 20. Now, at level 32, a single minor trait is all she can afford, and her efficacy is that much reduced. Trash mobs may be cannon fodder now, but taking boss veterans and larger enemies has become a kitten exhausting battle of attrition. I was just starting to love my mesmer, but if the next 48 levels are going to be like this, one can hardly blame me for wanting to just hang up the pink butterflies and make the curtain call.

Life has certainly improved for my veteran characters. But the experience of newer characters has been severely impacted by the removal of gradual progression, the engagement of experimenting with builds in early levels, and the ability to take on challenges in the mid-level ranges.

ANet, you have either inadvertently or by design turned GW2 into one of those games where the endgame (which many argue doesn’t even exist) IS the game. You have turned my hikes into chores, where leveling was previously a joyous little race where little victories gave way to meeting goals and eagerly trying out that combination of traits that you had been eyeing for so long. I implore you, please, please consider reverting to the old 70 point system, at least for PvE. (The new system works extremely well in PvP, kudos to that.)

Your players and new players are not too dumb to comprehend 70 trait points, I promise.

100% support.

Just to keep this post 15+ characters look, it’s becoming exceedingly difficult to convince my best friend who just started GW2 that it’s worth grinding to 80.

Soja.5918:

OR From a Hilly Hike to a Climb Up a Sheer Cliff

I have played Guild Wars since Autumn of 2005. I have played Guild Wars 2 since Beta Weekend 2. I have twelve alts, three of which began their lives in the headstart period. Let’s get that out of the way.

Outside of a few of them, I play mostly casually. I like to take my time and enjoy the sights and sounds and smells of Tyria. I have games that I have not yet beaten, DOZENS, because I adore getting immersed and lost in them. GW2 is devilish because it has tickled that fancy of mine.

That said, I came into the patch with a wide open mind. A lot of changes were coming and the fundamentals of the game would be changed for good. I welcomed the wardrobe, the dye consolidation, and the megaserver. If nothing else, towns are a lot livelier now. I adore seeing the world alive with players.

But here is the rub—traits. Before the patch, progression was very gradual, but it was there. Every level you’d have a shiny new trait point to assign to a line of your choosing. You’d incrementally increase your basic stats and work towards minor and major traits as a greater goal. What is missing now is that incremental increase that kept you focused or gave you the idea to try something else.

In my opinion, there was absolutely zero reason to disembowel the trait progression as it was. All it did was turn levels 11-30 into flyover country and greatly inhibited the capabilities of younger characters to make their way through the wilds of Tyria. I was overjoyed when I was finally able to unlock my first major trait on my mesmer, because her burdens became that much easier to shoulder. That was at level 20. Now, at level 32, a single minor trait is all she can afford, and her efficacy is that much reduced. Trash mobs may be cannon fodder now, but taking boss veterans and larger enemies has become a kitten exhausting battle of attrition. I was just starting to love my mesmer, but if the next 58 levels are going to be like this, one can hardly blame me for wanting to just hang up the pink butterflies and make the curtain call.

Life has certainly improved for my veteran characters. But the experience of newer characters has been severely impacted by the removal of gradual progression, the engagement of experimenting with builds in early levels, and the ability to take on challenges in the mid-level ranges.

ANet, you have either inadvertently or by design turned GW2 into one of those games where the endgame (which many argue doesn’t even exist) IS the game. You have turned my hikes into chores, where leveling was previously a joyous little race where little victories gave way to meeting goals and eagerly trying out that combination of traits that you had been eyeing for so long. I implore you, please, please consider reverting to the old 70 point system, at least for PvE. (The new system works extremely well in PvP, kudos to that.)

Your players and new players are not too dumb to comprehend 70 trait points, I promise.

I actually Like the new trait system. I see it as a way of making the 11 to 30 experience less of a cake walk, that this was before the new traits.

As to the " players are not too dumb to comprehend 70 trait points, I promise" you cannot promise anything, unless you have the numbers. And we KNOW Anet has the numbers to prove their contentions….

if a player has 13 points in one trait line, and 17 In another… ummm… Not wanting to call them dumb as you do. But maybe …less Understanding of the benefits of major traits Over just having points all over the place would be better way to put it.

The thing is, with certain…short-cuts that belong on other threads and will not be mentioned here…. Some players go from 1 til 30 thinking they know what they are doing, when they are… Not as Knowledgeable as they believe.

So maybe an extended period without traits is a good time to actually learn their skills? Now that many of those short-cuts that allow a Player to level without actually learning skills, Might be a good idea.

I say give it time, and see :-)

I noticed the same thing, im inclined to say to people who disagree “try it yourself”.
So far i tried it on my mesmer, ranger, thief, all between 15-25, and they lost a significant bit of power.

While I support this patch, when they changed the way traits worked they should have reworked the power of the monsters in the 1-30 level range.
Edit : Or simply up the damage of all weapons in the lower levels.

The Patch seems tor mostly be aimed at endgame like OP noted, and i’m feeling it too, the lower levels however are currently left out in the cold with this crazy new trait system.
It needs work at the lower levels… and fast.

I completely agree. I brought up the very same point prior to the patch going live (as did many others). Its terrible that you have to wait so long to get to trait points period, and almost as bad that you only further get trait points at limited increments beyond that. Long periods of stagnation followed by a big jump when you finally unlock a trait point, rinse and repeat, instead of the gradual increase.

Traits are basically THE progression and customization option leveling up, as stuff like sigils / runes and gear is hardly worth going all-out on for a specific build type when you’ll be ditching it 5-10 levels later anyway. Traits are the constant customization. So by moving them up to a much higher level and spreading them out so much more it makes the leveling process much less dynamic.

I really don’t think 70 trait points was complicated at all. Fairly simple to figure out, add 5 points to a tree to unlock a minor, another 5 for major, and so on. And ironically, the ONLY people who may have had problems with it would have been new players. So the one group you’re simplifying traits for is the same group that’s also having to wait that much longer and having to deal with more of a slog to access them period.

Should have just done some sort of tutorial explaining traits if it was deemed “too complicated”. And as far as 14 points being easier to redistribute than 70… a simple +5 button on the interface would have fixed that.

In my opinion it is a great change, I think new players are overwhelm by Weapon swapping, utilities and trait coming all so early. Being a little weaker mean you have to rely on their ability more than passive “buff”.

Of course player who were 80 pre patch will find the new system a little slow but that’s because we are used to get our traits at level 10. I think new players will benefice from having one less thing to worry about (at least until level 30).

JoxerNL.3752:

…
While I support this patch, when they changed the way traits worked they should have reworked the power of the monsters in the 1-30 level range.
Edit : Or simply up the damage of all weapons in the lower levels. …
It needs work at the lower levels… and fast.

Unless One of the things they hoped to accomplish, was place speed bumps on the 11-30 experience?

Maybe they felt that some players needed more time actually learnimng to use their weapon skills without the complications that trait points add, and one way to do that is make mobs tougher..and take away traits?

It doesn’t make sense to weaken the 11- 30 mobs, they were a cake walk before…now… a Little less so…fact they can be made a Bit tougher to be honest.

The change is for a new player’s perspective. Apparently, people didn’t know how to do traits and a people actually used random point builds. Surely ArenaNet has feedback on this, hence the change, mainly for new players in China.

The change is to reduce the amount of information fed to players. Levels 1-5 is the introduction of weapon skills while 5-30 is the introduction of healing, utility and elite skills. Now traits are after that, adding on to the core system.

I have no doubt that ArenaNet has the metrics to justify the switch to a simpler system of trait building. After all, after reaching a certain level, people just buy their traitlines five at a time anyway, right? There’s the rub—after reaching a certain level. What about players or characters who are still working their way up? What about players who are trying out new characters? Why should their abilities be impaired in the name of simplicity?

Furthermore, do you not realize that the overworld mobs for the most part have been dumbed down as well? If the game was a cakewalk before, then what is it now that PvE has been adjusted so that its low leveled zones can now be tackled without traits? A mudhole stomp? A steamroll? Forgettable, maybe?

And that thing, where players need to learn the ins and outs of their systems? That is what the early levels were for. What ANet has done was take away one of the central mechanics for character building. So now, instead of clueless level 15s, you have clueless level 40s, because they were never given the chance to play around with the trait system before reaching a point where it might be important.

Lastly, I called no one dumb. Rather, I declared the opposite—MMOs and RPGs in general aren’t for people that don’t like engaging themselves intellectually, be it within the story, lore, or mechanics of the game. Those that don’t soon discover that it is not the game for them, whereas those that do will continue to find things to keep them engaged. What ANet has done is take away one of the chiefest tools they had for engaging new players and old ones with new characters.

Think of it like a book—a novel with a steady pace that hooks you and engages you early is much preferable to one that takes three hundred pages to get to a starting point.

I agree, until level 30… You have no access to traits or an elite.

The trek from 11 to 30 is going to be very long and dull for new players.

(Thankfully, I had birthday scrolls to raise all of my characters to level 20…)

I was leveling a mesmer before the patch, and after I do feel substantially “weaker” at level 27.

Starting the traits off at level 30 was absurd. They should have just given a point starting at level 15 and then every 5 levels after that, if they wanted to reduce the number of trait points.

Or, better still, not have changed the way trait points were granted at all…
Just require 5 points be attributed at a time. No more +1 here and +1 there.

(Essentially, the same concept already applies to skills. You use multiple skill points to purchase a single skill.)

It’s forced socialization, they want players to group and ask for help. Every mmo tries it and fails miserably. I think Anet hit an icy patch and can’t get the game back under control. Guess I’ll go dust off my light saber again.

This will Not be " Boring for newer players." since they have no idea what came before. To them it will just be " the game as it is." I know that as someone that experienced trait points from 11 on. This may seem like a global nerf. Because it is.

But I think it is called for. The game was a cake walk before. I hear talk from Players to have level 11 to 30 Mobs weakened.

Fact if anything those Mobs need to be strengthened.

So new players get a More challenging game, and we need to adapt to it. Not a bad thing overall.

Evon Skyfyre.9673:

It’s forced socialization, they want players to group and ask for help. Every mmo tries it and fails miserably. I think Anet hit an icy patch and can’t get the game back under control. Guess I’ll go dust off my light saber again.

I disagree, have you been to lower level area today? People everywhere grouping, asking for help and receiving this help from End game players. I think Anet did a wonderful job in making GW2 about people playing together. I’m not a fan of zerg content but I think it’s nice seeing a community grouping like this.

The only downside of this patch is how easy it is now for End game players in low level area, I was pretty much 1 hitting everything.

you guys don’t realise, for veterans its annoying but completely new players will have no idea that traits exists i did my first character only traited him when i was like level 45, my newest character thief is already lv 29 in around 15 hours you just don’t know how to level you’re characters

I dunno, made a new character yesterday and if anything he is easier to play than previous ones. Used an xp scroll so he is now level 22 in starter gear. So far he has done a jp, soloed a bunch of events, and duoed the champ hylek (had to res the other guy). My favorite moment was the veteran spider queen. Hit her group with shortbow 2 and all the babies died in one hit. Maybe it’s mostly experience but I really don’t find it harder now, and being able to get through just spamming sh 1 and 2 suggests it isn’t just me being awesome.

I have to voice my opinion on this ‘new trait system makes it easier for people to understand’ argument. It’s rubbish.

Seriously, to whoever though this up, what time and age do you think we live in? Were you raised in the Sierra games period perhaps, where forgetting to pick up an inconspicuous piece of cheese would result in permanent game over 3 stages later, all the while without any hints or online guides to help you?

Because we don’t live in that age any more. We live in the now, the now in which there is a tutorial for every trivial, menial task one could ever come across. And we know it, because most of us spend over half our day online, via pc or smart-phone.

It’s downright insulting to think that a large percentage of players would have had trouble figuring out how trait points used to work. And even if we assume that this is so, which is asinine, then giving us the choice to change our traits at any time, free of charge would have been the fix all along.

I’m sure there are reasons for these changes, but the ones I’ve been given are really lacklustre.

Also, I have to wonder how large this group of struggling people must have been for you to change the trait system for, considering you apparently care diddly-squat for the significantly sized RP community.

Here’s an idea: divorce attributes from traits. Keep them visually together in the UI, but with separate point expenditures. Traits themselves work as they do now, using trait points. Attributes cost attribute points, which scale with the old system, starting at level 11.

The plus/minus buttons adjust your attributes, while traits are adjusted by clicking directly on the slots. The bulk of the graphical bars representing the trait lines should be greyed out or hidden until the character hits level 30, with only the left edge and numbers visible.

This would also give players a little more freedom when creating builds. The attributes and traits sharing a line present a recommended pairing, rather than a forced marriage.

Lalocat.6793:

I dunno, made a new character yesterday and if anything he is easier to play than previous ones. Used an xp scroll so he is now level 22 in starter gear. So far he has done a jp, soloed a bunch of events, and duoed the champ hylek (had to res the other guy). My favorite moment was the veteran spider queen. Hit her group with shortbow 2 and all the babies died in one hit. Maybe it’s mostly experience but I really don’t find it harder now, and being able to get through just spamming sh 1 and 2 suggests it isn’t just me being awesome.

you are a geared level 22 character in a level 10 zone that they nerfed , you surprised youre op? the key here is boringness not just how hard it would be to kill things game doesnt start till 30 now.

Hey there, since we are getting a lot of feedback on this topic right now, we are collecting it all in dedicated threads. You are very welcome to repost your questions comments and concerns here “https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits”