Guild Wars 2

When I first posted in this topic, the OP was a mess of a list with fake pro and cons arguments for some controversial topics that lishtenbird cared about.

Now it’s a well made summary of the forum mood regardless of what the nay-sayers are trying to make us believe.

I’d say good job for listening to the feedback. Keep up the good work.

As regards said unbalanced list of views, see Point 3-10 for the overwhelming difference between the + and the – arguments which the OP filtered out.

As stated a 100 times before, while the current manifestation of his collection of views is far bigger, it still shares (at least some of) the bias, and that should be pointed out until the thread will truly provide what the title suggests – a comprehensive list of topics, rather than filtered out arguments for/against.

Whoever made the arguments against #13 didn’t do much research did they?
Capes existed in GW1, Wings are already ingame and Swimsuits and School Uniforms exist/existed in the games code and have been made public through datamining (not that this should be taken as a proper source, but this is basically what started the demand for swimsuits/school uniforms from the community in the first place. They were fully modeled, textured, previewable and dyeable, and the ‘back to school’ update made many think they’d be on their way. Don’t just accuse people of ulterior motives…).

Taking inspiration from other games doesn’t make it copying either. Gw2 has enough themes and ideas of it’s own. I’m sure the creators have some great ideas that can be implemented into the game sooner or later.

A question:

How would everyone present to this conversation like to see any changes implemented? Would you all prefer an expansion (meaning a large time gap, shelling out additional money) or would you rather have them come gradually over time with Living Story (for free but no more then 2-3 features over the course of a year)?

• Revised topics 4-5, added reference threads.
• Re-revised parts of topic 3.
• Repaired formatting which was removed along with the shiny red header style (sent a question to support about whether I am allowed to use it without the “flash” CSS reference, I hope I do).

Thayet.1647:

Whoever made the arguments against #13 didn’t do much research did they?

I personally like the ideas of wings, uniforms and swimsuits and won’t be opposed to capes (though don’t really care), but these are the arguments people are giving. “Too anime” is really an argument for many people, one can’t just scrap it.

Thanks for reminding about datamined though.

KarlaGrey.5903:

As stated a 100 times before, while the current manifestation of his collection of views is far bigger, it still shares (at least some of) the bias, and that should be pointed out until the thread will truly provide what the title suggests – a comprehensive list of topics, rather than filtered out arguments for/against.

It’s still being revised. A matter of time.

BlueBoy.1236:

Another controversial topic is probably condi cap for pve.

I don’t really think it’s “controversial” among the community, more like it is brought up because it’s been mentioned but nothing since.

Chrispy.5641:

And you haven’t artificially bloated your cons with self-evident statements (since that’s what you’re calling it)? Your Iphone statement is not only artificially bloated, but flat wrong (and also not self-evident). Apple regularly updates the Iphone’s operating system with new features, regularly adding more variety to what you can do. If you’re referring to the look of the phone. Almost all people have a case for their phone. The case shows their personality instead of the phone itself. If Variety was so confusing and overwhelming then all phone cases would be the same color and design.

If you’re so afraid that I’m unable to provide anything valuable, then you might want to take a closer look at yourself and your unsurprisingly biased opinions disguised as bipartisan forum arguments.

You totally missed the main strong argument of the iPhone analogy and went for strawman arguments. I think at this point it would be safe to assume that I touched a sensitive subject of yours and you’re now simply bashing the whole thread.

Loiterer.4235:

Calling players emotionally unstable teenagers for their opinion and telling them that for what their word is worth, they might as well pack up and go back to that other game? Not the best idea.

Rewritten that part. Having studied psychology, I believe this is an important aspect worth mentioning in the context, but I tried to make it more neutral now.

• Revised topic 7, added reference threads. Turns out I missed topic 6, will come back to it later then

Lishtenbird.2814:

Loiterer.4235:

Calling players emotionally unstable teenagers for their opinion and telling them that for what their word is worth, they might as well pack up and go back to that other game? Not the best idea.

Rewritten that part. Having studied psychology, I believe this is an important aspect worth mentioning in the context, but I tried to make it more neutral now.

Thank you!

It looks much more professional now. Yes, it’s subjective to a degree but since humans are subjective I don’t think it would be fair to demand a completely objective list. While I know that some players fit the description you rewrote, generalising leaves a bad taste in your audience’s mouth and alienates them very quickly.

Keep on keeping on!

One day humanity will learn to actually respect each other’s opinions.

Still think the OP is far too biased, would be nice to set out a forum topic that simply lists community listed pros, cons, and leaves out any and all personal opinion so that a straight comparison can be achieved

Ok OP your post on the arguments regarding mounts mentions animals existing or new. I know I have often mentioned Charr, Asura, Sylvari technology too and how imaginative a mount based on these could really be. I’m talking vehicles of a kind and not creatures. Also Im sure other people have as well

There are actually other reasons in the argument for mounts not mentioned here that I have and I am sure others have mentioned such as a toggle to reduce them to a basic model for reducing or removing lag they may cause; not allowing them in towns or cities or close to npcs as to cause blocking,

You also argued that having mounts already is an argument against having mounts which is twisted, If something exists already then it should be an argument that more can exist. Just because there are minis doesn’t mean no more minis should be produced. Just because there is armour does not mean no more armour should be produced.

You are missing out valid reasons for mounts and although I’m not going to do thorough research like you to aggregate posts what I see here is because of the thousands of post made on this you have just taken the most common few in the arguments.

Unfortunately there are valid arguments still missing here from what has been posted already and even if an argument is new if its valid then excluding it from this post means the argument you are putting forward is being misrepresented.

If you cant be concise with your arguments the intentions of this thread may be lost depending on what they are because people will still argue those things you have left out until death.

^dat

What also surprises me is how there’s no mention whatsoever of the vertical vs horizontal progression discussions (aka the legendary/ascended vs exotics argument, which is present in many, many threads including those that don’t specifically have that stated in their title <found it, but you should add this thread together with the arguments listed therein)
However there is no mention of the zerker dillema, which is currently discussed largely in association with the current pve meta in this thread. Hf wading through that moor of strawmen, non-replies, and actual arguments to extract relevant information for a summary of arguments in favour and against.

I still hold that the simplest solution would be adjusting the title (if nothing else, from ‘List’ to ‘Selection of controversial topics with associated arguments’, or something along those lines)

Loiterer.4235:

Keep on keeping on!

Will do.

rapthorne.7345:

Still think the OP is far too biased, would be nice to set out a forum topic that simply lists community listed pros, cons, and leaves out any and all personal opinion so that a straight comparison can be achieved

You can show me an example of how you would like to see it done by rewriting one of the existing ones (preferably the already revised). Then we’ll see what can be done to reach a compromise in including “personal opinions” from both sides.

joneb.5679:

You are missing out valid reasons for mounts

I will try to extend the pros with some of your arguments, thanks for bringing those up.

joneb.5679:

and although I’m not going to do thorough research like you to aggregate posts what I see here is because of the thousands of post made on this you have just taken the most common few in the arguments.

See, this is the problem. People see some pros are missing but instead of summarising and presenting what they know, they just bash the thread because it’s easier and faster.

joneb.5679:

Unfortunately there are valid arguments still missing here from what has been posted already and even if an argument is new if its valid then excluding it from this post means the argument you are putting forward is being misrepresented.

Reference threads are there for a reason; most common things will be listed, everything else can be read in the respective threads. But these posts can serve as a starting point for many players.

KarlaGrey.5903:

What also surprises me is how there’s no mention whatsoever of the vertical vs horizontal progression discussions (aka the legendary/ascended vs exotics argument, which is present in many, many threads including those that don’t specifically have that stated in their title, such as this one),

Ascended vs. exotics is a story of the past. CDI on vertical progression and topics on hor. vs vert. progression are linked in the “gear progression” topic. I will check that thread and see if I should put it into the reference list for that topic.

KarlaGrey.5903:

or the zerker dillema (which is discussed largely in association with the current pve meta).

It will be added when I have time, with the recent “This meta has to end” thread reviewed and linked. If you wish to, you can already start gathering bullet points for pros and cons. This will speed up the process.

KarlaGrey.5903:

The simplest solution would be adjusting the title (if nothing else, from ‘List’ to ‘Selection of controversial topics with associated arguments’ or the likes).

I don’t see a problem; “list” is a list, regardless of whether it’s ultimately full or not. Plus, the title character limit is rather harsh.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Chrispy.5641:

And you haven’t artificially bloated your cons with self-evident statements (since that’s what you’re calling it)? Your Iphone statement is not only artificially bloated, but flat wrong (and also not self-evident). Apple regularly updates the Iphone’s operating system with new features, regularly adding more variety to what you can do. If you’re referring to the look of the phone. Almost all people have a case for their phone. The case shows their personality instead of the phone itself. If Variety was so confusing and overwhelming then all phone cases would be the same color and design.

If you’re so afraid that I’m unable to provide anything valuable, then you might want to take a closer look at yourself and your unsurprisingly biased opinions disguised as bipartisan forum arguments.

You totally missed the main strong argument of the iPhone analogy and went for strawman arguments. I think at this point it would be safe to assume that I touched a sensitive subject of yours and you’re now simply bashing the whole thread.

If I missed the main strong argument, then why don’t you tell me what it is? Or, maybe you don’t want to tell me what it is because such an argument doesn’t exist, or I already disproved that argument. Or, you don’t have an argument, and by refusing to post the main ‘strong’ argument of the iphone, you are admitting that you in fact do no have an argument, and therefore, are artificially inflating the cons with useless facts and opinions instead of an actual argument against whatever point it is.

Instead of acting like a mediator of sorts (which seemed like the whole point of this thread), you are trying everything in your power to leave the cons as giant, bloated walls of text that don’t actually argue against anything….why?

Go on, post the “Your bashing this thread” statement again. And do it tomorrow or next week the next time I reply to this thread. I’ll be patient, and I’ll wait for your answer if you can come up with one. Until then, this thread is nothing more than a giant opinion piece poorly disguised as middle ground.

Why is this not stickied yet?

where is the traits discussion? Thats huge right now.

As well as the NPE

chaosdeity.6287:

Why is this not stickied yet?

I think it would be wise to at least wait until I’m finished revising it.

Knighthonor.4061:

where is the traits discussion? Thats huge right now.

As well as the NPE

Quote from thread FAQ:

Lishtenbird.2814:

• Topics from this list were observed to have considerable amounts of both pro- and con-oriented discussants within the community itself. If the community is instead discussing specifics of a certain idea on which everyone generally agrees and the concerns are directed towards developers, this topic will not usually be included; example: lack of attention to PvE/PvP/WvW content, changes to the Trait system, SAB, Cantha.

Chrispy.5641:

If I missed the main strong argument, then why don’t you tell me what it is?

Maybe you just went past it and conveniently pretend you never read it over and over again? Be as passive aggressive as you want, jump around forum CoC as much as you want, the millions of blondies and their male equivalents who went into phone stores and chose one single “ultimate” iPhone instead of hundreds of customer-tailored SonyEricsson A400, B500, C600, Nokia L900, M800, N700 and Samsung X100, Y200 and Z300 won’t magically disappear.

I’d say the new dailies topic is turning into one also

Just adding my 2 cents… and only really talking about the points that I care about.

“9. GUILD vs. GUILD (GvG)
Guild Wars was about guild wars. Guild halls, guild capes, they brought about a real sense of unity and style that frankly guild weapons and armor severely lack. Imagine Dragon Age without say dragons… It was a key and vital pvp aspect of the game. It just doesn’t make sense to not have it. Saying guild wars 2 is a different game is fine and all, but by that logic Legend of Zelda: Link to the past is a different game than Ocarina of Time, it still wouldn’t make sense to not have Zelda in it. Yes some lore is there and races, but the pvp community was much stronger in gw1 and had much more options (random arena, team arena, Hall of Heroes, gvg, FA/JQ, factions alliance battles, dual classes with hundreds of skills etc) GW2 has what, arena (ranked, unranked, custom, but still just arena) and wvw. Don’t get me wrong I love spvp and while not a huge wvw fan (not a big zerg fan in general b/c individual skill matters less and bigger numbers seem to be the most deciding factor, usually) it is nice every once in a while as something different, it in no way even comes close to the pvp of gw1.

You use “that other game has it” in most of your points… I’m assuming you mean WoW? or other games in general? But the most important point is the real other game was Guild Wars! The one that started it all and had the die-hard fans… the fans who waited years for gw2.

“7. GEAR PROGRESSION / LEVEL CAP RAISE

What about gear accessibility? You were supposed to be able to get max level gear by A) doing dungeons, karma, C) wvw, D) crafting, etc. And CHEAP too. That was part of the GW2 Manifesto (the cannon of gw2) the promises and core values. I’m not arguing here to make everything super easy to get. In fact I love that the new vine backpiece and luminescent armor is hardish to get. Same with the fractals backpiece and legendary weapons. But armor and weapons at max level were never intended to be hard to get. Time to go back to GW2 roots. Kind of along the same lines as “play like you want” promises that were considered vital to GW2’s mission and design.

10. GUILD HALLS / Guild Capes

Kind of along the same logic as gvg (see above) Why take out very good things from the original game? Guild halls were like guild banks times 100 in terms of usefulness and coolness and unity. A place to chill and talk freely with guildies and see them in person rather than taking over a guild chat or talking in divinities reach and having others jump into your conversations. I remember many times just chilling talking to friends. Fun times. I can’t really see anyone NOT liking guild halls. Unless they never played gw1 and don’t understand the point of it. It’s also very aesthetically pleasing. Like your home instance but has a much bigger point, and you can make it look like an artic tundra, a necromancer/undead labyrinth, and countless more.

Guild capes… are just cool. Especially the tattered cape (personal opinion) In fact if they added capes in general to the gemstore I guaranty they would sell like crazy. Clipping issues? So what we have tons of cool items already that clip on some races (looking at u charr) Don’t like capes? That’s cool gw1 had the option of not showing it by a checkmark, just like gw2 does with headpieces, backpieces etc No real good reason not to have them.

11) Raids/Guild Raids

More guild activities is always a good thing. By that other game I assume you mean WoW again. They got rid of 50 person raids. Most people like the 10 number. Or 25 if you have the people for it. As a hardcore veteran of gw1 (50/50 hom and gwam and many pvp titles) and gw2 dungeon master I’m all up for more dungeon type experiences. 10 man raids would be awesome (as long as its not stacking and standing behind walls like in dungeons or zerging like in big events or wvw)

Assuming gw2 is more focused toward casuals is a pretty kittenumption. Yes they did many things to make it easier for new players and tried to do other things too (looking at u trait unlocks) Gw2 seems to have a lot of gw1 players and most are pretty hardcore (just go into any town and look at all the gwamm’s) Or look at how many pvp’ers have a dragon emote or people in dungeons have dungeon master or people in towns have a legendary or 2 or more. Yes we have a lot of casuals (and that’s awesome) but having MORE content for vets and/or hardcore players is always a good thing. Remember hard mode in gw1 missions or vanquishing in gw1 zones? Or even how HoH and gvg and team arena was more organized or harder than say AB or FA or random arena… games should strive to please both the casuals and the hardcore players. Especially the hardcore players b/c they are a vital part of its fanbase. Sure Halo for example has easy mode, but it also has legendary mode. Legendary doesn’t make casuals hate halo, they can still enjoy the game, but it gives people who want more of a challenge something to strive for and enjoy, and a deeper level of satisfaction. WoW did the same thing with their newish easy mode raids (I forget what its called its been a few years, quit after cata) but they still had their normal and hard mode raids. Yes it was the same lore and casuals could enjoy endgame content, but there was a deep satisfaction with hardcore friends and guilds who did hard mode. If everything was easy a game would get boring very quickly. Like spamming 1 with a guardian staff in zerg events. Not fun…yawn.

16. PRECURSOR CRAFTING / SCAVENGER HUNT

First let me say I have 2 legendaries and close to my 3rd (incinerator, sunrise, working on bolt) I worked on them legitly and it took a while but I’m very happy and proud of them. I don’t care if others have sunrise too or bought them with gems trading for gold. I didn’t grind or play like its a 2nd job, in fact went with many months hardly ever playing b/c of bad internet connections where I lived. (ok I did grind for my first, incinerator back in the day, and not when it was cheap due to exploits) Now its just doing what I enjoy doing anyways.

Do I like the RNG factor of the mystic forge, lol not at all. When you look at forums with hundreds of people who could have bought 2 or more precursors by the time they got one that way you know its messed up. But do I care if they make legendaries easier to get? Not at all. If by easier I mean 1000g sink. A scavenger hunt sounds awesome. Crafting sounds awesome. Options sound awesome (looking at u again gw2 manifesto, aka gw2 cannon, aka gw2 bible, aka guild wars 2 heart/soul/blood) Also does crafting and scavenger hunt necessary mean it will make getting them “easier”? I think not. Arenanet has options, they could make the scavanger hunt include dungeonmaster, fractals 50+, wvw rank _, pvp rank _, doing all the living world achieves, etc. The point is they could still make it challenging and people who want an alternative besides gold would love it. People like a good challenge. Not an impossible one or a grind but a good one.

Also another important point… GW2 promised it… Promised! Promises mean something to me. It’s integrity. It show’s character. It shows that you mean what you say… I seriously doubt gw2 wants to make its promises like politicians do with political promises to where they have no merit, no real value, and people roll their eyes, or don’t believe them, etc. Now i’m not saying it won’t take time, or resources, or might be hard to implement. I admit I’m not a programmer. But a promise is a promise and fans can take these things very seriously. I know people who could have several legendaries by now who are waiting for these things b/c they don’t want to waste money on buying them off the tp or gamble the MF (and probably waste more $) who instead would rather play the game and enjoy a good challenge. I think the new Vine backpiece introduced in the last Living world and the new armor in this one are good examples of people doing things to get something prestigious. Maybe make it a little longer or harder to get, say over a year or two even, but I still think people would like more options. I still think people would like a good challenge, something fun to work towards.

Also about the economy, if you get it this way you can always make it account bound, problem solved. Sure prices may go down still some b/c less people may buy it, but it wouldn’t be destroyed by a huge influx of it into the tp. And lots of people who don’t want to put the time investment into a long term scavenger hunt would still just buy them.

5. EXPANSION

In my opinion expansions would be awesome! First Factions was by far my favorite gw1 game. Elona was pretty cool with DOA raiding and heroes, eotn was awesome and was the gateway for gw2! etc. 2nd making each game both an expansion and a stand alone game was a brilliant marketing strategy… 3rd to address your points above, making expansions does not necessary mean making it have subscription fees. GW1 did it and it was a big success. Honestly since its also a stand alone game just look at any game with a sequel. Zelda does it, pokemon does it, halo does it (not xbox live) mario, sonic, tomb raider, final fantasy, kingdom hearts etc. The idea that mmo’s need subscriptions to make expansions is a lie the industry (especially WoW) has been feeding gamers for years. GW1 said NO and took a stand and they were very successful. Successful enough to keep making new games, grow as a company, make GW2, etc. While WoW has done nothing but decline dramatically since Wrath of the Lich King, so no obviously new content = subscriptions = more sales is not necessary true. A great game that thousands or millions of people buy makes $$$, makes new content, makes sales. (IE: zelda, pokemon, final fantasy, mario, sonic, halo, gw1 etc)

Now don’t get me wrong… I seriously love (most) of the living world/story. New content every 2 weeks or so is awesome! That you don’t have to pay for, even better! Sure sometimes its rushed or buggy, or almost impossible (looking at u 3 headed wurms) and not a fan of zergfests personally. But overall I still love it. BUT that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t ALSO love a lot of new content all at once. In fact many players would return (and new players) with expansions. People just get excited about expansions. History has proven this. Even if say WoW for example, had a steady decline over the years b/c of bad games, or just a decline of players in the mmo genre in general… it still doesn’t change the fact in every expansion release there was a massive spike of both new players and returning players. People like a lot of new content. Its exciting. Why do people have to choose? Why can’t people like the living story and expansions? Or neither or favor one or the other? Who cares? As long as people are having fun and anet continues to make money its a win-win for everyone!

Do they not have the staff or resources? Maybe, maybe not. Staff can be grown or relocated. Less so called “improvements” and more real improvements would be a good start. Maybe hire more people? Cost money? Who cares, you have to spend $ to make money. Every growing business knows this. Companies grow, you have to hire more people, but if you make a successful game (keyword successful) you will still profit and potentially profit big. Again guild wars 1 was an awesome example of this. They didn’t need subscriptions, just good games. Good games sell. Period. Its logical and its fact.

I know I’m pretty opinionated and pretty biased on some of these issues. As a hardcore longtime fan I believe I at least somewhat have a right to be. Are some of these issues controversial. Definitely. But at least for the above points that I care about anyways, I put a lot of thought and logic behind each one. Options are good, going back to the gw2 cannon and gw2 mission/manifesto would be amazing (remember all the hype and awesome reviews ign, etc had about this game b/c of just how amazing and DIFFERENT it was? I do…!!!) Going back and putting in things that made gw1 awesome would be great. Keeping promises, always a good thing and just shows character, integrity, honor, respect, etc. More challenging content, always a good thing. As long as casuals and newbies can enjoy the game, content and lore too. Raids are awesome. More PvP would also be awesome. New expansions with lots of content, new zones (canthia!) new races or classes maybe?! (tengu! or the bears in the norn area, new classes: dervs, rits, paragons!) etc all seem like a good thing. Does it cost money? Would they need to hire new people or reallocate resources from somewhere? Probably. Would they still sell a ton and make even more $$$ if they made an awesome game? Absolutely Win Win for everyone.

Like I said I used a lot of logic and have some really strong points. I welcome a debate and challenge anyone to defy or disagree with the above arguments. But outside of just being misinformed or ignorant (like u need subscriptions for new content arguments) I highly doubt I am wrong in any of the above areas. Not saying I am always right but as a gamer, and as a big gw2 fan and a diehard gw1 fan I can’t see anyone not liking guild halls, gvg, capes, options etc.

Thanks for your input, Chrono. There are some interesting points. But I also think you have some idealized view on problems here and there

As for arguments, it’s still what people say, regardless of whether it makes a lot of sense to you or not. Same for “that other game” – there’s always “that other game” which had it, and that’s why it’s not specified. It’s even different for everyone.

I can’t take any thread about “List of Common Controversial Forum Topics” that does not list traits seriously. I don’t care about your excuses and explanations as to why it is not included.

The trait thread has been on the first to fourth page for 8 months. If that is not a common controversial forum topic, I don’t know what is.

Gregori.5807:

I don’t care about your excuses and explanations as to why it is not included.

Since you don’t care about my reasons, I don’t think I should care about your opinion either – sounds fair, right?

The community agreed that it was a bad move, ANet agreed they’re gonna do something one day, the Traits thread is always on the first pages, players’re posting there and keeping it alive, new “traits” threads rarely pop up. There’s next to no reason listing it here apart from you wanting it.

+1 OP! Great Work, this is such a good thread. It should be stickied immediately, and maybe the objective opinions written here will help inform both players an Anet about good and bad ideas!

champ.7021:

+1 OP! Great Work, this is such a good thread. It should be stickied immediately, and maybe the objective opinions written here will help inform both players an Anet about good and bad ideas!

I’m waiting until I can polish it, make it look more objective and add reference threads before suggesting to sticky it. Unfortunately, it’s Christmas season and I’m a bit too busy/tired to revise it at the moment.

Wow good job on this thread! Now I don’t have to search for topics that have been discussed to death already!