Guild Wars 2

Although I haven’t been getting along with monthly content updates, I greatly appreciate ArenaNet’s efforts. It’s truly amazing that an MMO that doesn’t have a subscription fee offers new content every month for free. It’s not always a cornucopia of new goodies, but each month I see the forums cooperatively anticipating the next big patch. Sure, fights break out shortly after the patch goes live, but at least there is a moment of serenity before the storm.

Speaking of storms, I also liked the idea behind Flame & Frost: The Gathering Storm, particularly that it is a months-long story and promises gradually escalating dynamic events. It’s almost like a monthly TV series. Earlier this year, I thought that if content itself wouldn’t hold my interest, then at least the ongoing story would keep me interested. Although I probably spent more hours playing competitive games – UT99-III, Quake 2 and 3, Bad Company 2, Battlefield 3, CS 1.4-GO, L4D, TF2 et al – I love the adventure genre because of stories told. Good ones, bad ones, I’ve played them all. The death of that genre sort of gives away the fact stories became of lesser importance. That is why I was excited to see how the Living Story would unfold.

The problem is, it doesn’t. The Living Story is yet to have a story and yes, I am well aware that both January and February updates weren’t supposed to substantially progress the story. The issue here is that it doesn’t even tease us with what’s ahead. ArenaNet did a better job of teasing plot lines with the post-Halloween update when they hinted at Lost Shores. What are these creatures sighted in the waters? Why are there beached whales? What are these new ships? To whom do they belong? Post-Halloween update introduced hooks. Flame & Frost feels like a hurriedly scribbled draft – “refugees flee from threat, some don’t make it, collect mementos, fix signs, also earth opens up, svp fwd to Colin”.

January began with a subtle introduction of a threat. Refugees began to stream into the Black Citadel and Hoelbrak. The biggest and frankly inexcusable flaw in writing is that we never get to directly ask the refugees themselves what the threat is. How did their homes collapse? Where are their homes? Guild Wars 2 boasts that there are no ‘off-screen’ locations or actions, yet we never see the actual destruction this unnamed threat unleashed. We’ve seen a few geyser-related dynamic events, but unless they opened up directly below someone’s house, how would they pose a threat? Instead of chasing story crumbs, we chase broken signs and dead refugees. One would think our priority would be looking for survivors.

Then February’s update came along, and the story continues to stomp in one place. With no build-up, there is suddenly a norn-themed structure by the road to Diessa Plateau, and everyone’s contently ignoring its spontaneous existence. Refugees continue to grow in numbers, but you still can’t ask them what’s going on. Dynamic events now include the Flame Legion and the dredge, so at least we know now what the threat is, even if that should have been defined last month. Just like with the geysers earlier, however, we’re once again given a stage with no hooks alluding to the future. Yes, the dredge and the Flame Legion are working together. Is it hinted why? Is it hinted how? No, it’s not. Once again, storytelling in February’s update is a draft, a collection of Powerpoint slides instead of a seamless web of intrigue.

After two updates, there is still no story. If you combine the two updates, you get a semblance of it – the dredge and the Flame legion are destroying homes, creating a stream of refugees. But the writer fails to note what makes this threat different than the other hundreds of dynamic events? What prevents heroes from culling the threat locally and then helping the locals rebuild? There must be something that’s scarring the inhabited land, something that truly gives players a sense of, “This is a threat that’s currently bigger than us”. That is intelligent story-telling. Gating the story in a way that has slayers of Zhaitan loot refugee carcasses is not good design by any measure.

I’m aware I am not opening much room for discussion given the nature of the critique, but I am hoping that ArenaNet will see this thread and pass the feedback on to relevant people. They claim they want to create a Living Story, but it’s been two months already and the story remains static, unimaginative and sorely lacking. Saying it’s teaser content is a safe cushion to fall back on, but it isn’t true. There is no active teasing involved. There is no coherence in storytelling so far. Teasing is presenting minor content that’s closely inter-connected and suggestive, while making sense within the context via which the content is presented.

I have to disagree with you, on most points. What you’re doing is akin to opening a book, reading the prelude, and tossing down saying “There’s no story here!”

Refer to practically any fantasy novel. Game of Thrones doesn’t open with the White Walkers laying siege to King’s Landing. The Malazan Book of the Fallen doesn’t begin with the Chained God wiping out all life on Genabakis. The Kingkiller Chronicle doesn’t start with Kvothe saying “Okay, this is exactly where and how I screwed up”.

In two of those examples, the threat could have been averted early on if people had just used some common sense and worked together. But they didn’t. They had other things going on. Things which, to them, seemed more important at the time.

And in GW2, every race has something that probably seems more pressing going on at the time this invasion is taking place. Humans are locked in war with the Centaurs. Norns are fighting the dredge and the sons of Svanir. Charr are fighting the ghosts and the Flame Legion. No one in their right mind would worry about an invasion in some distant area when they have armed foes within their own borders.

You’ve said that there isn’t any coherence or story so far. When it began, there was just a trickle of refugees coming through. We weren’t told why, other than vague hints about an invasion. Now, we get to see the face of the invasion, the Flame Legion and the Dredge, but we haven’t been told why yet. So, the ‘who’ has been answered, but not the why. A coherent chain so far. There are hints of what’s to come, but they’re implied, not explained. The next link in that chain will likely either be a full invasion into charr and norn territory, or will actually allow us to seek and and discover what’s going on.

Like with any good story, Anet is building towards something. Something big. Some things are not revealed yet, some will remain hidden until the very end. They’re not just dumping the entire thing in your lap.

So, have patience. Something big’s coming.

I think the problem most people have with the story is the pacing. It’s been promoted pretty strongly, with very little actually happening. Still, it’s what it is. I’m quite patient myself, so I’m looking forward to seeing where it goes.

Of course, when I was young, we didn’t have VCRs. We had to watch something and wait a whole week to find out what happened next. Today, you just stream the entire series for the net.

Not quite the same audience. lol

I think the story so far is solid, if not sparse. There are no friendly NPCs or major villains appearing that know whats going on. Its a surprise attack on multiple fronts. How much do you expect to know about it?

I’m thankful they are taking their time with the events this time. While the Lost Shores events were more fleshed out, they were also more immediate. If I recall it was one or two days where people could help NPCs establish waypoints and such, then it was all over. Those of us that couldn’t make it on that particular weekend (myself included) missed out on all the action and story. What we were left with was a “late to the game” feeling.

The Flame and Frost updates are set at just the right trickle to allow everyone time to enjoy the content. When you release free updates constantly for millions of players, this is the way to go.

At least the Heralds are saying more than “go to this zone” after the latest patch.

Grumm.4359:

I have to disagree with you, on most points. What you’re doing is akin to opening a book, reading the prelude, and tossing down saying “There’s no story here!”

In regards to this and the other points you’ve made while comparing Guild Wars 2 to Game of Thrones, it is all completely irrelevant because you are comparing storytelling in a book and storytelling in a video game. Any writer will tell you the two are inarguably incomparable. First and foremost because we can actually explore the world of Guild Wars 2. Furthermore, it is an RPG, a game where we can initiate contact with NPCs and choose what we say to them or what we ask them. The story in almost all cases is pursued, not told. Yes, you could argue ‘reading’ is a means of pursuing, but I mean purely in the sense that a video game is interactive, on a different level than turning pages.

Grumm.4359:

In two of those examples, the threat could have been averted early on if people had just used some common sense and worked together. But they didn’t. They had other things going on. Things which, to them, seemed more important at the time.

That is a good example of how a book is wholly different from a video game. Most events in A Song of Ice and Fire cannot be prevented via common sense alone, the characters are on set paths that don’t always intertwine, and no matter how much you’d want Guy A to look behind him and spot Guy B sneaking up on him, it won’t happen. In a video game, the only instance in which that can happen is a cutscene. If Guild Wars 2 were a book, the heroes might be otherwise occupied in Lion’s Arch when they hear of refugees; you also provided your own examples, all of which were in book format. It is a video game, however, and I can teleport all the way to the refugee camps and talk to them myself. In which case, they spout the as-old-as-launch phrases like “You should visit more often”. That’s comical.

Grumm.4359:

You’ve said that there isn’t any coherence or story so far. When it began, there was just a trickle of refugees coming through. We weren’t told why, other than vague hints about an invasion. Now, we get to see the face of the invasion, the Flame Legion and the Dredge, but we haven’t been told why yet. So, the ‘who’ has been answered, but not the why. A coherent chain so far. There are hints of what’s to come, but they’re implied, not explained. The next link in that chain will likely either be a full invasion into charr and norn territory, or will actually allow us to seek and and discover what’s going on.

You are right on this one, and it’s more difficult to argue on this front. Yes, we started out just with refugees, and now we know it’s the Flame Legion and the dredge wrecking havoc. However, coherence is lost because there is nothing connecting the dots. Compare this to the rebuilding of the fountain of Lion’s Arch. It was gradual. February update introduced the norn structure that you can ask no one about, and it appeared overnight. The dredge and the Flame Legion attack settlements mindlessly. A good writer would build up by, say, (and this is a quick, purposefully cliché example) having you find notes on the corpses, or better yet have only the dredge attack, but have them drop Flame Legion related gear.

In a way, ArenaNet is building up, I sadly cannot argue the truth of that statement. However, it’s the how that is bothering me. Like I’ve mentioned in the original post, it feels more like a series of ‘shots’. It feels like a collection of photographs rather than a seamless progress of the plot.

The biggest and frankly inexcusable flaw in writing is that we never get to directly ask the refugees themselves what the threat is. How did their homes collapse? Where are their homes? Guild Wars 2 boasts that there are no ‘off-screen’ locations or actions, yet we never see the actual destruction this unnamed threat unleashed. We’ve seen a few geyser-related dynamic events, but unless they opened up directly below someone’s house, how would they pose a threat? Instead of chasing story crumbs, we chase broken signs and dead refugees. One would think our priority would be looking for survivors.

Read my mind, Faceless.

I stood around wayfarer foothills wondering “..err…where are all these refugee’s from exactly? Isn’t all the housing in the home districts anyway?”
In the Wayfarer foohill alone, you only have a handful of houses, of that which belong to hearts or dynamic event starters, every else is tents (where the svanir keep warm…cold…you know what I mean), keeps, and …thats it.

I cant imagine Kennek’s homestead housed a few dozen people in their half a dozen bedded home.

I always thought that if you’re trying to connect with an audience, simply telling them “bad juju is happening” and regard it as having being done offscreen, is never, ever as effective as seeing it and being within that turmoil.

I think ArenaNet is still learning how to tell an unfolding story in an MMO.

The Lost Shores event taught them the downsides of telling the story too quickly.

The Living Story will teach them the downsides of telling the story too slowly.

Kinda enjoying the dredge/flame legion alliance though it would be nice if the refugees were a bit more talkative about their problems. Being on the slow boil is fine for me, however I can only hope it doesn’t culminate in one large one-off lag fast event that isn’t even available to my timezone.

Would also be cool if there were “hidden” objectives we didn’t know about, like if no one was actively looking for clues in dredge/flame legion areas that makes it harder for the players later on. Also, as with all events – there should be a real chance of failure though if the main plan is global domination that may be pushing their luck. ;p

As has been mentioned, the rapid pace of the Lost Shores event caused much forum discussion. So the Living Story is proceeding very slowly, well many vocal posters asked for it. Possibly not quite this slowly however. Several comments have been made as to the lack of information available about what is happening in the refugee homelands. I relate this to the night Katrina came ashore in New Orleans. Communications down and it’s getting dark. Category 4 or 5 hurricane hitting a city below sea level. Go to bed and wait to see what happened overnight. No one outside the area really knows anything, and those inside only know what is happening to them. It’s a role playing game, use your imagination, think of it as a real disaster where information is lacking.

I would argue that the two are comparable, since regardless of whether you’re telling a story via a book, a movie, a video game, a table top game, or just sitting around actually telling it, it’s still storytelling. All forms of storytelling share common traits; it’s the medium in which the story is told that changes.

As far as the freedom to roleplay in a video game goes, unless you’re roleplaying between living people it’s entirely illusory. You can pick what you say to npcs, sometimes, but it’s from a narrow list of options. Arguing that in a game you can do what you want is only true up until you reach the limits inherent in all games. We can initiate contact with npcs, but no matter what, there’s only a small number of interactions possible between us and them. This means that, to an extent, the story is told to us. Yes, we sometimes have to hunt it down, pursuing it, but after that we sit back and enjoy the ride, from which we cannot deviate.

Also, many events we have no control over. You gave an example of someone sneaking up on someone undetected, and said that this couldn’t happen in a video game except for in a cutscene (or at least, that’s the only way it could happen in GW2). And yet, there are numerous times when a player moves his/her character near a tree only to have a bandit drop from it and attack, or has an enemy unstealth from nearby, totally undetected. With the bandits in the trees, no matter how hard you look, you won’t see them until they spawn.

And, as far as the heroes having something else to do, well, Logan, Rytlock, and Caithe don’t seem to be that worried about what’s going on. So far all we’ve gotten is a letter and some heralds saying ‘Hey, something’s going on".

Moving on, why on earth would the corpses have notes that just so happen to explain everything for you? And why would the dredge be carrying flame legion gear? I mean, the fact that they’re fighting on the same side should be a big enough hint that they have some kind of alliance going. And attacks might seem mindless to someone who doesn’t have all of the facts… like all of us players.

You say there’s nothing connecting the dots, but I think most people would disagree with that alone (if nothing else). There are refugees fleeing something… dot. Now there are invaders attacking settlements… dot. People fleeing attacks, and others attacking… and you’re saying there’s not enough connecting these two facts?

I’ll use a video-game reference for this, in the hopes of better expressing my point: it feels like you’ve played the first event in a long chain of events and then declared ‘Well, there’s no story to this event."

All I’m urging is patience. Wait and see how it plays out; only a fool passes judgement before everything is finished.

Alloy.2839:

As has been mentioned, the rapid pace of the Lost Shores event caused much forum discussion. So the Living Story is proceeding very slowly, well many vocal posters asked for it. Possibly not quite this slowly however. Several comments have been made as to the lack of information available about what is happening in the refugee homelands. I relate this to the night Katrina came ashore in New Orleans. Communications down and it’s getting dark. Category 4 or 5 hurricane hitting a city below sea level. Go to bed and wait to see what happened overnight. No one outside the area really knows anything, and those inside only know what is happening to them. It’s a role playing game, use your imagination, think of it as a real disaster where information is lacking.

Excellent points.

Another possibility, which would be interesting: what if the Flame Legion and the Dredge are not the real threat?

Imagine, if you will, that these two groups, while pushing the refugees out of their homes and invading surrounding areas, are in reality themselves fleeing some greater threat, one which no one else has even heard of yet.

And, as Alloy hit on, it’s possible that even the refugees themselves don’t have enough information to go on. Consider the effective time-period the game is set in and the unreliability of verbal comunication.

the rapid pace of the Lost Shores event caused much forum discussion

The final event from Lost Shores itself was of a single time-frame. THAT is what people were up in arms about, not so much about the build-up before that date.

Consider the effective time-period the game is set in and the unreliability of verbal comunication.

I was thinking about that too…but then saw we have asura gates, and WP. (The understanding is that the Asura built it for ease of travel, so it’s not restricted to just us players)
While WP costs money, it’s still a little strange that refugees fleeing from a tragic event wouldn’t want to get out of that area PRONTO and ask for funding to assist rather than just walk it out to the nearest town and risk getting attacked by the many, many threats in the open world, including the allied dredge and flame legion.

If we ground that in reality, it’s like a town being hit by a storm continually thats progressing south, and you pass by someone and they say, “Oh, we don’t need anything, we just want you to tell people to walk, yes, walk to the nearest town. it may take days to get there but there’s a camp. Buses on fast routes?…Trains?.. Evacuation planes/helis?… No need. kthxbai”

Yet a full evacuation at the fastest means possible is what most disaster control is about.

How is a story supposed to be alive when the developers try their hardest to make sure nothing will ever happen without you being there?

If I’m playing a game and there are unique things happening to other players across the same world, I’m not pouting like a child complaining that if I can’t have that cookie nobody can. Instead, I’m excited to go out and see more of the world and get immersed, because then it becomes a living story.

I agree with the TC. I understand what the two Flame and Frost patches have been trying to accomplish, but there really isn’t enough to actually lead me into the experience. That and the blatant and poorly executed emotional appeal in the reward of the first part took me way out of the experience. I appreciate the effort, but don’t do that again without proper delivery, ANet.

Kingfisher.7213:

I think ArenaNet is still learning how to tell an unfolding story in an MMO.

The Lost Shores event taught them the downsides of telling the story too quickly.

The Living Story will teach them the downsides of telling the story too slowly.

They are still learning, they said as much. Which is the purpose of this feedback thread. I’m not condemning their storytelling, I am just hoping to give them ideas on how to improve it. I don’t think pacing is the only problem, though.

Grumm.4359:

I would argue that the two are comparable, since regardless of whether you’re telling a story via a book, a movie, a video game, a table top game, or just sitting around actually telling it, it’s still storytelling. All forms of storytelling share common traits; it’s the medium in which the story is told that changes.

That’s just plain incorrect. That is comparable to saying that going somewhere by car is identical to going there by bicycle. Yes, in the end it is transportation and navigation, but you will be taking different paths, driving at different speeds and utilising wholly different techniques (there is no clutch on bicycles, for example). I can only speak as an amateur writer and a literature enthusiast, but I’ve seen a good number of interviews with professional writers that said as much. Either you or I could hunt for them.

Grumm.4359:

As far as the freedom to roleplay in a video game goes, unless you’re roleplaying between living people it’s entirely illusory. You can pick what you say to npcs, sometimes, but it’s from a narrow list of options. Arguing that in a game you can do what you want is only true up until you reach the limits inherent in all games.

You are misunderstanding. The point is, we are given a selection of questions and responses, whereas in books it is entirely linear. In all good RPGs (for the sake of the simplicity, let’s assume ‘good’ pertains to Metacritic scores) you get to ask questions pertaining to a quest. Even in Skyrim, if werewolves attack a village, you can ask the quest giver where they are coming from and whether this problem’s persisted for a while. In a book, the character might not ask that and go look for the werewolves. Games give you that choice, games should give you that choice, at the very least RPGs. Books don’t.

Grumm.4359:

Also, many events we have no control over. You gave an example of someone sneaking up on someone undetected, and said that this couldn’t happen in a video game except for in a cutscene (or at least, that’s the only way it could happen in GW2). And yet, there are numerous times when a player moves his/her character near a tree only to have a bandit drop from it and attack, or has an enemy unstealth from nearby, totally undetected. With the bandits in the trees, no matter how hard you look, you won’t see them until they spawn.

Again, you misunderstand. My point was purely from the perspective of the narrative, and you are listing game mechanics and taking my fictitious example further than was necessary. The point was that in Guild Wars 2, you have many more layers of storytelling – visuals, audio cues, ambient dialogue, dialogue options, in-game mails, item drops and cutscenes, only one of which takes literal control away from the player to tell the story. If that is still comparable to a book to you, then I’m afraid we can only agree to disagree.

Grumm.4359:

And, as far as the heroes having something else to do, well, Logan, Rytlock, and Caithe don’t seem to be that worried about what’s going on. So far all we’ve gotten is a letter and some heralds saying ‘Hey, something’s going on".

True enough, but then why would it be worthy of our attention to start with? Each area in Tyria has dozens of far more pressing matters. The world is brimming with threat that we can recognise and fight, the obligation of the writer is to separate this threat from the rest. Why would we want to help refugees when the situation seems under control? Every story, even A Song of Ice and Fire, names an unusual threat (in milder novels the threat could be an inner conflict or some such) early on in such a way that captures the reader’s attention. Game of Thrones starts out with a patrol gone wrong, and already characters face a threat that shouldn’t be there, but is.

Continued in the next post.

Grumm.4359:

Moving on, why on earth would the corpses have notes that just so happen to explain everything for you? And why would the dredge be carrying flame legion gear? I mean, the fact that they’re fighting on the same side should be a big enough hint that they have some kind of alliance going. And attacks might seem mindless to someone who doesn’t have all of the facts… like all of us players.

If I were separated from my family and I would be on the brink of slow death, I would (given that I would have the relevant items) definitely write down my regrets and well wishes in the hopes that someone would read them, hopefully my family. And the gear comment was a mere example of subtler storytelling, as was the note, really. You hurried to refute these examples as though I was actually trying to rewrite Flame & Frost, when I clearly stated that the examples themselves were not the point and were purposefully cliché. My point was that enemy placement alone is rarely good storytelling.

Grumm.4359:

You say there’s nothing connecting the dots, but I think most people would disagree with that alone (if nothing else). There are refugees fleeing something… dot. Now there are invaders attacking settlements… dot. People fleeing attacks, and others attacking… and you’re saying there’s not enough connecting these two facts?

That is not an argument, sorry. You generally make good points, so please don’t resort to “most people would disagree…”. Especially when this thread has a slew of different opinions. All you did here was list the dots but you still don’t address the gaps between them. How would you justify the sudden appearance of the norn structure, for example?

Grumm.4359:

I’ll use a video-game reference for this, in the hopes of better expressing my point: it feels like you’ve played the first event in a long chain of events and then declared ‘Well, there’s no story to this event."

Currently, what little story there is, is poorly told. Months later we might have a much better and robust story, but I am here to give ArenaNet feedback to hopefully help them in doing so. That may sound arrogant, but ArenaNet expects feedback from their players, at least that’s what they claim in almost every interview.

Grumm.4359:

All I’m urging is patience. Wait and see how it plays out; only a fool passes judgement before everything is finished.

And only a fool shies away from critique, setting aside his fears for present flaws because of a baseless hope that they will be remedied in the end. Products can and should be judged mid-production. Judgement made is by no means ‘permanent’, as in I am not saying ArenaNet is bad at storytelling forever and they should quit. I am judging the current state of affairs. As an example, once I heard of universal ammunition and co-op in Dead Space 3, I was deterred and effectively judged the game prior to launch. But would launch remove universal ammunition and co-op? No, it would not.

Well, that was way longer than intended.

To me, the story so far feels like a first comic book, to any of you who read comic books.

You open it up, read through the build up and then at the final page, there’s always this tantalizing image of some greater threat or problem that needs to be solved. Kinda like we’ve helped the people, and killed the enemy that came through the portals, and this ominous entity that looms over the issues at hand.

You can’t judge a series on the first comic alone. And hopefully, like in comics, the living story in the future will build out of this one, and other events in the game world, while spreading to affect more zones than only two.

Personally I dont think there is anything to say about the living story thus far. There is simply not much to it yet, considering its hardly even started. Im sure we will see more interesting additions to the living story this month and the coming months.

I read alot of books, and its very common for a story to start out small then escalate as time goes. Heck, some books in a series hardly even start for real until the second or third book.