Guild Wars 2

So at level 6.

With level 0 gear with +10 power runes.

80 damage with level 80 scaled down to 6.
132-135 with real level 6.

It is 68% more damage.

The power figures are slightly off in the image with the attacks since the staff of the level 6 has minor bloodlust and the level 80 necro is under the influence of 2 sacks of might.

The second set of images show the normal stats.

So the level 80 has a bit more armor (10 armor), more precision (6), more crit chance (3.75%) and crit damage (6.12%).

The level 6 has 68% more damage, more health (11), more power (57).

At this level I would take way higher base damage than a bit of crit chance and slightly higher crit damage.

The level 80 needs 3 hits to kill the wurm hatchling. The level 6 needs 2 hits.

Sometimes people really are amazing and absurdly quick to defend anything. I’m not used to seeing it, but still. A level 80 SHOULD be more powerful. We’re not talking god among men or trivializing content more powerful, but at least equivalent stats. If a level 2 has a higher stat than a level 6 downscaled, that’s a problem. That should never be the case. The level 80 gear should be reduced to an appropriate quality at that level, and the major stat should be equivalent to the available major stat of the downscaled level, per gear piece. The minor stats should then be the proper ratio from there. And that is why the 80 should be more powerful because the downscaling should not be an attempt to make three stats even out to one stat, that’s silly. Then, yes, the 80 also has all that other utility.

I can’t really understand why anybody would defend a system where a low level toon has more power than a decked out in ascended gear 80. I know I throw the word fanboy around a lot but this is the pinnacle of fanboyism.

Dinks.2478:

I can’t really understand why anybody would defend a system where a low level toon has more power than a decked out in ascended gear 80. I know I throw the word fanboy around a lot but this is the pinnacle of fanboyism.

from your comment, dinks is a good name for you. less qq, more pewpew. if you are struggling more, then your build might need work, theres places to look for help w/ that. if u just miss 1 shotting mobs, then we have diff opinions on fun. i never enjoyed how easy it was too roll thru lowbie zones when thats where new content was being released (ls stuff). altho, i haven’t had any probs w/ the new scaling either so, i’d say its prob your build

Jaxom.7310:

Dinks.2478:

I can’t really understand why anybody would defend a system where a low level toon has more power than a decked out in ascended gear 80. I know I throw the word fanboy around a lot but this is the pinnacle of fanboyism.

from your comment, dinks is a good name for you. less qq, more pewpew. if you are struggling more, then your build might need work, theres places to look for help w/ that. if u just miss 1 shotting mobs, then we have diff opinions on fun. i never enjoyed how easy it was too roll thru lowbie zones when thats where new content was being released (ls stuff). altho, i haven’t had any probs w/ the new scaling either so, i’d say its prob your build

This isn’t about one shotting mobs. No one said one shotting mobs. This is about reasonable equivalency. No one here is saying 80s should be able to come in here and rock the house. But they shouldn’t be coming in and under performing compared to a character 4 levels lower than the one they’re being scaled to.

Level 80s have more stats, they do, it’s a pure and simple fact. For that fact alone they should automatically be more powerful than a level 6. Their stats should not be reduced below level equivalent stats just because they have more of them. Those stats should make them slightly more capable. Not god like, not one shotting, no trivialization, but more capable because more stats. Maybe more health, maybe more damage reduction, maybe the most minorly better chance to crit.

When I go into a low level zone I expect it to be easier. I would like it to be similar in difficulty to when I was native to the zone. Under no circumstance, though, should it be harder, that’s just absurd.

Jaxom.7310:

from your comment, dinks is a good name for you. less qq, more pewpew. if you are struggling more, then your build might need work, theres places to look for help w/ that. if u just miss 1 shotting mobs, then we have diff opinions on fun. i never enjoyed how easy it was too roll thru lowbie zones when thats where new content was being released (ls stuff). altho, i haven’t had any probs w/ the new scaling either so, i’d say its prob your build

He can still one shot mobs. It is called new level 2 tweeked character.

Why is it fine for a tweeked character one shot but it is evil if a level 80 character does so? They are both piloted by a veteran player.

I would appreciate if this thread remained about why a real low level character > down scaled max level character.

Haven’t noticed much difference on my damage oriented characters. Might feel a difference on my ‘hits like a wet noodle’ guardian.

Simply comparing numbers is also slightly inaccurate. What you need is the aggregate damage. For example my engineer shoots out an extra rocket every 10 seconds. Has increased crit chance(not reflected in the character sheet since it is based on distance to target). Can bleed and burn things when I crit. Spawns mines on crit which deals additional damage. There are also defensive stuff.

Jaxom.7310:

Dinks.2478:

I can’t really understand why anybody would defend a system where a low level toon has more power than a decked out in ascended gear 80. I know I throw the word fanboy around a lot but this is the pinnacle of fanboyism.

from your comment, dinks is a good name for you. less qq, more pewpew. if you are struggling more, then your build might need work, theres places to look for help w/ that. if u just miss 1 shotting mobs, then we have diff opinions on fun. i never enjoyed how easy it was too roll thru lowbie zones when thats where new content was being released (ls stuff). altho, i haven’t had any probs w/ the new scaling either so, i’d say its prob your build

I am going to ignore most of what you said because your argument is so dull you had to resort to personal attacks and jump right to the point. The fact that you can defend a system where high level characters are physically weaker than low level character is absurd and outright stupid. you SHOULD be more powerful. I should have an advantage. I SHOULD be able to go to low level zones and feel more powerful than the mobs and everybody else. Otherwise they might as well remove gear and leveling all together.

My build is great and you have nothing to say other than personal attacks. Really shows the fanboyism on these forums going into overdrive. Nobody is asking to be one shotting mobs again, we just want downscaling to make sense and not make us weaker than level 10s in greens.

Swoo.5079:

Loboling.5293:

I have no problems with maxed gear lowbies having some extra of the stat/s they build for. At 80, gear comes with 3+ stats, at low level it comes with 1. Do this same test at level 60 and we’ll see. I feel very strong at 80, stronger than I did while leveling. You know why? No one spends 5-10 minutes at each level to fully regear their character. The diffrence is small, and while its nice to buy a few upgrades while leveling, the idea that an 80 downscalled is competing with a level 2 in maxed gear, like the weirdest situation ever, is ridiculous. Downscalling may not equalize every stat perfectly, but it does a good job of making the content enjoyable regardless of the level. I’d say its not broken. Again, do this with any level where stats start dividing into 3, and we’ll see how it works out. Going 100% power at level 2, compared to an 80 that doesn’t even have that option is silly. The 80 has precision and ferocity, as well as any defensive stats. 80s are stronger than lowbies, and quite close when lowbies spend way more time than needed to gear up. You can be as strong as an 80, level and have to replace every piece to reach that same point. (this is also without traits, and possibly all your skills unlocked)

Seriously, if guild wars pve is too hard for you at 80, get a friend who plays games to come and help you kill your enemies. Instead of two shoting your enemies alone, you can one shot them with the help of a friend. I mean the only deaths I’ve had at 80 in open world are from fall damage, afk and a handful of times dying to group content. I had one npc put 62 stacks of bleeding on me with one ability since the update, was shocked and I just died in a few seconds cause I forgot to bring cleansing I should’ve brought a maxed out level 2 with me for some assistance. Oh wait….

Let me talk about the second paragraph first.
I’m not complaining about the difficulty of the game.
I’m complaining that it is easier with a true low level character than with a decked out down scaled max level.
It is fine if the low level and the downscaled are as equally powerful but it is just down right silly when better gear and higher real level translate into worse.

About your first paragraph, if you follow the links you will see examples at several levels.

But I’ll leave you with (example from the links) a true level 54 with green gear on the left and a mix of level 53 rare gearvs an ascended level 80 character downscaled to 54.

I appreciate that you took the time to bring up relevant pictures. However, I still don’t see the issue. The geared 54 vs the geared 80:

70 more power
7% more crit chance
62% less crit damage
1500 less hp (18% of total)
Missing some utilities
Missing most traits

So while the 54 has slightly more critical chance and power, he’ll still deal way less damage, and lack a lot of utility and survivability. And as soon as he goes anywhere that is not level 54, downscalling will affect him as well. Thirdly, in an hour of playing he will have lost strength compared to the 80, unless he spends more gold and time getting gear for each level.

Again, I don’t see the issue with downscalling. It is working well in my eyes. There may be a couple locations on a map where a lowbie who is decked in top gear will have slightly more of 1-2 stats, while the 80 will always have all his traits, and utilities, and never feel kitten .

Either way, last time this complaint was brought up, changes were made that made leveling even more faceroll, I don’t want to see that happen again, but it may be inevitable.

Khisanth.2948:

Haven’t noticed much difference on my damage oriented characters. Might feel a difference on my ‘hits like a wet noodle’ guardian.

Simply comparing numbers is also slightly inaccurate. What you need is the aggregate damage. For example my engineer shoots out an extra rocket every 10 seconds. Has increased crit chance(not reflected in the character sheet since it is based on distance to target). Can bleed and burn things when I crit. Spawns mines on crit which deals additional damage. There are also defensive stuff.

So what you are saying is that the max level characters need traits and efficient game play to be overall as effective as proper level character.

For some reason that reads to me as Anet telling me “abandon the lower level areas if you are 80” (not that I’m there often).
Maybe that is the objective (with the added bonus of slowing world bosses?) but I remember when the objective was to bring back the high level characters to the low level areas.

I can only hope this is yet another miscalculation on anets part,and yet another reason why this stuff should be tested before its shoved down our throats.

Loboling.5293:

Swoo.5079:

Loboling.5293:

I have no problems with maxed gear lowbies having some extra of the stat/s they build for. At 80, gear comes with 3+ stats, at low level it comes with 1. Do this same test at level 60 and we’ll see. I feel very strong at 80, stronger than I did while leveling. You know why? No one spends 5-10 minutes at each level to fully regear their character. The diffrence is small, and while its nice to buy a few upgrades while leveling, the idea that an 80 downscalled is competing with a level 2 in maxed gear, like the weirdest situation ever, is ridiculous. Downscalling may not equalize every stat perfectly, but it does a good job of making the content enjoyable regardless of the level. I’d say its not broken. Again, do this with any level where stats start dividing into 3, and we’ll see how it works out. Going 100% power at level 2, compared to an 80 that doesn’t even have that option is silly. The 80 has precision and ferocity, as well as any defensive stats. 80s are stronger than lowbies, and quite close when lowbies spend way more time than needed to gear up. You can be as strong as an 80, level and have to replace every piece to reach that same point. (this is also without traits, and possibly all your skills unlocked)

Seriously, if guild wars pve is too hard for you at 80, get a friend who plays games to come and help you kill your enemies. Instead of two shoting your enemies alone, you can one shot them with the help of a friend. I mean the only deaths I’ve had at 80 in open world are from fall damage, afk and a handful of times dying to group content. I had one npc put 62 stacks of bleeding on me with one ability since the update, was shocked and I just died in a few seconds cause I forgot to bring cleansing I should’ve brought a maxed out level 2 with me for some assistance. Oh wait….

Let me talk about the second paragraph first.
I’m not complaining about the difficulty of the game.
I’m complaining that it is easier with a true low level character than with a decked out down scaled max level.
It is fine if the low level and the downscaled are as equally powerful but it is just down right silly when better gear and higher real level translate into worse.

About your first paragraph, if you follow the links you will see examples at several levels.

But I’ll leave you with (example from the links) a true level 54 with green gear on the left and a mix of level 53 rare gearvs an ascended level 80 character downscaled to 54.

I appreciate that you took the time to bring up relevant pictures. However, I still don’t see the issue. The geared 54 vs the geared 80:

70 more power
7% more crit chance
62% less crit damage
1500 less hp (18% of total)
Missing some utilities
Missing most traits

So while the 54 has slightly more critical chance and power, he’ll still deal way less damage, and lack a lot of utility and survivability. And as soon as he goes anywhere that is not level 54, downscalling will affect him as well. Thirdly, in an hour of playing he will have lost strength compared to the 80, unless he spends more gold and time getting gear for each level.

Again, I don’t see the issue with downscalling. It is working well in my eyes. There may be a couple locations on a map where a lowbie who is decked in top gear will have slightly more of 1-2 stats, while the 80 will always have all his traits, and utilities, and never feel kitten .

Either way, last time this complaint was brought up, changes were made that made leveling even more faceroll, I don’t want to see that happen again, but it may be inevitable.

Engineer vs Warrior which explains the health difference.

Look at the following picture (again from the blog why i game).

But as we go up in level the difference will diminish.

Swoo.5079:

Khisanth.2948:

Haven’t noticed much difference on my damage oriented characters. Might feel a difference on my ‘hits like a wet noodle’ guardian.

Simply comparing numbers is also slightly inaccurate. What you need is the aggregate damage. For example my engineer shoots out an extra rocket every 10 seconds. Has increased crit chance(not reflected in the character sheet since it is based on distance to target). Can bleed and burn things when I crit. Spawns mines on crit which deals additional damage. There are also defensive stuff.

So what you are saying is that the max level characters need traits and efficient game play to be overall as effective as proper level character.

For some reason that reads to me as Anet telling me “abandon the lower level areas if you are 80” (not that I’m there often).
Maybe that is the objective (with the added bonus of slowing world bosses?) but I remember when the objective was to bring back the high level characters to the low level areas.

I am not sure where I said efficient. I am just saying that looking only at the per hit damage is myopic.

Are you saying people are going to stay away from low level zones beccause they are slightly less op? If so, thats ridiculous.
This affects nothing other than some egos.

Evans.6347:

Are you saying people are going to stay away from low level zones beccause they are slightly less op? If so, thats ridiculous.
This affects nothing other than some egos.

Beeing less powerfull than a newbie character is not less OP .. its UP (underpowered)

Else everyone is OP .. and then again the word OP means nothing .. you can also
call a newborn child OP because it can maybe one-hit a fly.

Evans.6347:

Are you saying people are going to stay away from low level zones beccause they are slightly less op? If so, thats ridiculous.
This affects nothing other than some egos.

He is offering us facts for discussion.nothing more.

Evans.6347:

Are you saying people are going to stay away from low level zones beccause they are slightly less op? If so, thats ridiculous.
This affects nothing other than some egos.

I have no idea what is the reason Anet sees to require ascended armor to match level 20 toughness given by a level 20 blue armor (exotic will be a few points off).

I see no reason for if you use the tome to level your character to 20 in the tutorial that character deals less damage than when it was level 1.

Again, those 2 necros are both my characters. It is not two different players.

I’m not sure what kind of starting areas you play in where you see level 80s parading for newbies. This is not WoW with their duels.

I don’t see what egos are going to be hurt.

I just expect my level 80 necromancer to be at least as strong as my level 6 necromancer. Again, both my characters unless the ego you are talking about is of my toons.

I also don’t see why my level 40 necromancer with level appropriate gear can be stronger than my real level 20 but my level 80 can’t.

Swoo.5079:

I just expect my level 80 necromancer to be at least as strong as my level 6 necromancer. Again, both my characters unless the ego you are talking about is of my toons.

But .. but .. you have learned to play your 80 necromancer .. and are a total noob on
you level 6 .. so that compensates for it … rofl

I really love this kittening argument

I know this goes against what many people expect, but: This makes sense.

Give me a second. I’m not trying to fanboi here, this was a change I specifically asked for early on just after the game released, with reasons. I wasn’t the only one either, it was a fairly common sight.

Anyhow…

The issue is that a level 80, applying even downscaling, would naturally be much stronger than a low level character. Because outside of any items or stats on them, they got:

• More skills
• More traits
• More sigils / procs

It added that downscaling wasn’t actually “fair”. It slightly favored the higher level characters.

This favoring was at one point reduced, though it still existed. And the brunt of the added power still comes from the added skills and traits and all, not from stats.

Back then I posted that to make lower zones less of a snorefest for a higher level character and make it more feel like what they advertised, “Zones don’t become outdated as you level”, they’d need to make the lvl80 numerically weaker. To compensate for the added skills and traits they possess.

And this is exactly what happened here.

Mind you, comparing my lvl22 Mesmer to my lvl80 Mesmer, the latter is still far stronger. Far. By a huge margin. But she is so because of skills and traits and procs and flexibility now. Numerically to slightly make up for it, the lower level char gets a raw power advantage.

Which makes sense. The higher level character always belongs to an at least somewhat experienced player. They don’t need raw power to carry them along, they got their plethora of effects and knowledge how to use them to do that.

TL’DR: The lvl80 is still stronger, just in a different way. One which balances more readily.

Dinks.2478:

There is no reason why my decked out level 80 should be weaker than a low level character. Completely ridiculous.

That’s the thing: Your level 80 is stronger. That’s the whole point. This difference, the advantage your level 80 has, was significantly reduced this patch, but she is still stronger.
(The whole point of downscaling is to make your lvl80 only marginally if any stronger than a lower level char, so this gets it closer to the mark.)

Attached is my level 80 mesmer vs my level 21 mesmer in full level 20 greens except not accessories and a backpiece because they don’t seem to exist at that level.

My level 21 Mesmer has 64 more power than my level 80 in full level 80 exotic gear and ascended accessories. That is a 28% difference in power…..

Dinks.2478:

Attached is my level 80 mesmer vs my level 21 mesmer in full level 20 greens except not accessories and a backpiece because they don’t seem to exist at that level.

My level 21 Mesmer has 64 more power than my level 80 in full level 80 exotic gear and ascended accessories. That is a 28% difference in power…..

Convenient also (see my quote in the post before) how you forgot the nearly doubled critchance and the added health. Yeah your downleveled char is so much weaker…

Carighan.6758:

Dinks.2478:

Attached is my level 80 mesmer vs my level 21 mesmer in full level 20 greens except not accessories and a backpiece because they don’t seem to exist at that level.

My level 21 Mesmer has 64 more power than my level 80 in full level 80 exotic gear and ascended accessories. That is a 28% difference in power…..

Convenient also (see my quote in the post before) how you forgot the nearly doubled critchance and the added health. Yeah your downleveled char is so much weaker…

But why can a level 40 down to 20 mesmer have traits, skills and have more power than a level 20 while a 80 can’t?

Last time I checked you can easily level at 20, 40, 60 without traits, utility skills and crit procs.
You have power and you dodge if you need. It is that easy.

The only stuff affected is some dungeons and champions, where full traits and skills might be of some relevance, so a slight nerf to max levels there.

Carighan.6758:

Dinks.2478:

Attached is my level 80 mesmer vs my level 21 mesmer in full level 20 greens except not accessories and a backpiece because they don’t seem to exist at that level.

My level 21 Mesmer has 64 more power than my level 80 in full level 80 exotic gear and ascended accessories. That is a 28% difference in power…..

Convenient also (see my quote in the post before) how you forgot the nearly doubled critchance and the added defense. Yeah your downleveled char is so much weaker…

None of which matters at those levels. There is a reason gear only comes with 1 stat at those levels and its because power is all that matters. Also yeah,. my extra 5% chance to crit is totally going to change anything. And health? I’ll gladly trade that extra 3 health and toughness to fill the power gap because low level mobs shouldnt even be able to touch me.

This isn’t a matter of “har har, some stuff is higher than others” The main stat that is important is a ridiculous 28% lower. TWENTY EIGHT PERCENT. That is huge. Its even larger than a level 80 wearing rare gear compared to a level 80 wearing ascended gear.

A lvl 80 decide to help a friend that just started playing the game :

So, my traits, runes, not to mention the 250 extra power I can get from bloodlust rune as a downscaled lvl6 compared to your 50 maxed minor bloodlust doesn’t count?

Baldrick.8967:

So, my traits, runes, not to mention the 250 extra power I can get from bloodlust rune as a downscaled lvl6 compared to your 50 maxed minor bloodlust doesn’t count?

Can you show me that 250 power on a lvl 6?
I think you will have a surprise.

If this is true, that’s totally against character progression.

You put effort to lvl up character and make all gear and runes, but then some lower level player with blue and green can just hit much higher damage no matter what. Why would you run lv 80 toon in a low level area, or much of the open world since they are below lv 80.

everyone should just use low level character with some junks on them and do content below lv 80. It would be much faster and easy. once hit lv 80, put all loots in the bank, delete character and make a new one. repeat the process.

as long as the content/ area is below lv 80, down scale is horrible and people should not waste time using their lv 80 characters.

this thread is really funny, i had a good laugh.
a new player will never have all best gear for his lvl ( this is just theoretical)
and if he has , 10 min later it’s outdated because he lvls to fast.
fo me they can even more downscale lvl 80’s, still way to easy in low lvl areas.
@Kennedys if you ever will have that chat with a “<80” i would change my playstyle

You guys are seriously upset that we have downscaling?

There’s a number of things wrong with arguments against:

1) Traits do make a difference – Your traits add flat crit boosts, damage-reduction boosts, range boosts, speed boosts, auto-spellcasts, etc to your build that a level 2 would never have.

2) Heal/Utility/Elite skills do make a difference – Your H/U/E skills can deal lots of extra damage, or if it’s not damage, then it offers you either boons or an ability to have fun with your combat more than just “press 1 and AFK”.

3) Stat distribution does make a difference – Even a maxed out twink will still only have stats in one category. If you gear your twink in gear that matches your 80 in ascended, you will find base damage values to likely be very similar. Fact is, you are also comparing damage per hit, when you should really be comparing damage per second. If your twink level 6 never crits, then they have an effective loss of dps ([Base DPS – Crit%] + [BaseDPS * Crit% * Bonus Crit Damage]) – Base DPS. Assuming Base DPS of 100, Crit% of 40%, and Crit Damage of 150%, this boosts the DPS to 120, which is a considerable amount you are refusing to consider. Never mind builds that grant fury, extra crit damage/crit% with certain weapons, etc, which can boost Crit% to 100% in some cases (meaning sometimes overall damage boosts of 1.6-1.7x, or more).

4) Gearing does not work like it does in your example most of the time – You could buy the max-level gear for your character every single level, with the latest runes, sigils, rings, amulets, trinkets, etc. Frankly, it’s a waste of money though and I would wager that not many people care about min/maxing their twink’s gear; it will just be replaced soon.

TL;DR: If you are being out DPSd, not out-damaged per hit, by a level 2 or even a level 6, then you are using a build with low damage or your don’t know your class. You also have many more skills than them and can easily make a build that completely destroys low-level enemies.

he also has more crit chance, more crit damage, skills and traits >.>

RedZebra.2345:

this thread is really funny, i had a good laugh.
a new player will never have all best gear for his lvl ( this is just theoretical)
and if he has , 10 min later it’s outdated because he lvls to fast.
fo me they can even more downscale lvl 80’s, still way to easy in low lvl areas.
@Kennedys if you ever will have that chat with a “<80” i would change my playstyle

That level 6 has gear level 0.
Still beats the 80 with exotics.

Vizardlorde.8243:

he also has more crit chance, more crit damage, skills and traits >.>

4% to 8% crit chance is meh.

Level 40s also have skills and traits and is better level 20 than a level 80 is a level 20.

MiniEquine.6014:

You guys are seriously upset that we have downscaling?

There’s a number of things wrong with arguments against:

1) Traits do make a difference – Your traits add flat crit boosts, damage-reduction boosts, range boosts, speed boosts, auto-spellcasts, etc to your build that a level 2 would never have.

2) Heal/Utility/Elite skills do make a difference – Your H/U/E skills can deal lots of extra damage, or if it’s not damage, then it offers you either boons or an ability to have fun with your combat more than just “press 1 and AFK”.

3) Stat distribution does make a difference – Even a maxed out twink will still only have stats in one category. If you gear your twink in gear that matches your 80 in ascended, you will find base damage values to likely be very similar. Fact is, you are also comparing damage per hit, when you should really be comparing damage per second. If your twink level 6 never crits, then they have an effective loss of dps ([Base DPS – Crit%] + [BaseDPS * Crit% * Bonus Crit Damage]) – Base DPS. Assuming Base DPS of 100, Crit% of 40%, and Crit Damage of 150%, this boosts the DPS to 120, which is a considerable amount you are refusing to consider. Never mind builds that grant fury, extra crit damage/crit% with certain weapons, etc, which can boost Crit% to 100% in some cases (meaning sometimes overall damage boosts of 1.6-1.7x, or more).

4) Gearing does not work like it does in your example most of the time – You could buy the max-level gear for your character every single level, with the latest runes, sigils, rings, amulets, trinkets, etc. Frankly, it’s a waste of money though and I would wager that not many people care about min/maxing their twink’s gear; it will just be replaced soon.

TL;DR: If you are being out DPSd, not out-damaged per hit, by a level 2 or even a level 6, then you are using a build with low damage or your don’t know your class. You also have many more skills than them and can easily make a build that completely destroys low-level enemies.

No one is upset.

Is leveling hard in this game? No.
What you do to level is auto-attack, use aoe vs multiple mobs, position yourself to take advantage of pierce/cleave, occasionally dodge.

Are you really going to do rotations to get fury and might and whatnot in general open world PvE?

The mob dies in 3 hits (or 2 of the twinked character).

PS: Still waiting for someone to come with an image of a superior sigil of bloodlust adding any power to a level 6(80).

Cause my 3 stacks of it apparently do nothing.

You get weaker as you level and gear up, broken broken broken.

I dont know whats going on, but there is something fishy, Before the patch i was soloing AC dungeons relatively with ease. Today i must double the effort to achieve the same thing .. with my build i can kill a young karka in southsun with a single use of purging flame .. the same build struggle in AC and the same skill is … maybe downscaled too much. Well the damage done is not proportional .. it’s weaker.

It doesn’t make sense that i can go in silverwaste or any other lvl 80 zone and melt everything on my path with only half of my skills then going to a lvl 30 dungeon and unleash everything i have to get the same effect.

Swoo.5079:

MiniEquine.6014:

You guys are seriously upset that we have downscaling?

There’s a number of things wrong with arguments against:

1) Traits do make a difference – Your traits add flat crit boosts, damage-reduction boosts, range boosts, speed boosts, auto-spellcasts, etc to your build that a level 2 would never have.

2) Heal/Utility/Elite skills do make a difference – Your H/U/E skills can deal lots of extra damage, or if it’s not damage, then it offers you either boons or an ability to have fun with your combat more than just “press 1 and AFK”.

3) Stat distribution does make a difference – Even a maxed out twink will still only have stats in one category. If you gear your twink in gear that matches your 80 in ascended, you will find base damage values to likely be very similar. Fact is, you are also comparing damage per hit, when you should really be comparing damage per second. If your twink level 6 never crits, then they have an effective loss of dps ([Base DPS – Crit%] + [BaseDPS * Crit% * Bonus Crit Damage]) – Base DPS. Assuming Base DPS of 100, Crit% of 40%, and Crit Damage of 150%, this boosts the DPS to 120, which is a considerable amount you are refusing to consider. Never mind builds that grant fury, extra crit damage/crit% with certain weapons, etc, which can boost Crit% to 100% in some cases (meaning sometimes overall damage boosts of 1.6-1.7x, or more).

4) Gearing does not work like it does in your example most of the time – You could buy the max-level gear for your character every single level, with the latest runes, sigils, rings, amulets, trinkets, etc. Frankly, it’s a waste of money though and I would wager that not many people care about min/maxing their twink’s gear; it will just be replaced soon.

TL;DR: If you are being out DPSd, not out-damaged per hit, by a level 2 or even a level 6, then you are using a build with low damage or your don’t know your class. You also have many more skills than them and can easily make a build that completely destroys low-level enemies.

No one is upset.

Is leveling hard in this game? No.
What you do to level is auto-attack, use aoe vs multiple mobs, position yourself to take advantage of pierce/cleave, occasionally dodge.

Are you really going to do rotations to get fury and might and whatnot in general open world PvE?

The mob dies in 3 hits (or 2 of the twinked character).

PS: Still waiting for someone to come with an image of a superior sigil of bloodlust adding any power to a level 6(80).

Cause my 3 stacks of it apparently do nothing.

So if you’re not upset, what, exactly, is the problem? The level 2 mobs are not going to kill you, and you are going to kill them just fine. If you choose not to play with your traits and utilities that you have to get those boosts, that’s fine, but that by no means invalidates the fact that they are there and can give you massive increases in damage even over a fully twinked low-level character.

You cannot ignore those boosts and simultaneously state that damage is lower from an 80. It’s disingenuous and doesn’t tell the full story.

To expand, no, I do not simply stand there and press 1. I dodge, I pop my utilities for fury, swiftness, and stability. I use my elite skills often on CD to burn through low-level enemies because it is faster. If you want to clear low-level stuff faster, do it.

Farming Flats.5370:

I dont know whats going on, but there is something fishy, Before the patch i was soloing AC dungeons relatively with ease. Today i must double the effort to achieve the same thing .. with my build i can kill a young karka in southsun with a single use of purging flame .. the same build struggle in AC and the same skill is … maybe downscaled too much. Well the damage done is not proportional .. it’s weaker.

It doesn’t make sense that i can go in silverwaste or any other lvl 80 zone and melt everything on my path with only half of my skills then going to a lvl 30 dungeon and unleash everything i have to get the same effect.

This isn’t necessarily a bad thing. The community has been begging for more challenging content for some time now, and having access to older content with a challenging kick can be quite invigorating.

Do you feel better overcoming a difficult task that took all your skill, or do you feel better just because you are more powerful than your enemy by default and plow through them?

What seems to be missing at anet is common sense.

Two responses — one snarky, the other serious.

Snarky:
I will believe that scaling is a problem when lowbies dominate WvW. (Actually, I’m curious what happens if someone tries this.)

Serious:
It sounds like Anet tested this and found that if a level 80 had the same stats as a lowbie, then the level 80 would vastly outperform the lowbie. So, in order to make things more even, they had to have the level 80 have lower stats to compensate for all the advantages they have.

I agree that it’s counterintuitive for the lowbie to have a higher power stat (at the cost of weaker other stats — yes, the lowbie can better approximate a glass cannon because their gear only has 1 stat instead of 3 — we haven’t tried to equalize all stats yet and see how they compare then). However, this ends up giving the desired result.

The comparisons on the blog are artificial — the average lowbie will not have perfect gear, as it’s too much time/effort/money to constantly replace your gear as you level. Similarly, the downscaled character did not use anything that lowbie didn’t have access to — eg no elite.

In short, a twinked-out lowbie can do a better glass cannon than a downleveled 80, so the lowbie will have higher non-crit damage. However, in practice, lowbies don’t feel overpowered and downscaled 80s don’t really feel underpowered now. So, while I recognize that the stat difference seems odd, it is what is necessary to give the end results, and I care more about the end results.

ekarat.1085:

Snarky:
I will believe that scaling is a problem when lowbies dominate WvW. (Actually, I’m curious what happens if someone tries this.)

Up-leveling is definitely not stronger, so at least in this regard we don’t have to worry. As far as I know, this change only affects High-to-Low conversion. The stats on your gear will scale up when you scale up, but the best you can get at low levels are blues and maybe greens, so they would scale to level 80 blues (or greens), which are really terrible. They would also still be lacking the stats, and your character still lacks the traits/utility skills.

@swoo that’s what i meaning with funny. lvl 2.. 6 is not static, you have it for just a blink in y total play time. Alot of games use easy mode for low lvl’s (just power), to encourage new players in the game and let them explore . Just read what MiniEquine says. Or like Farming says “now i have to do a little bit effort for doing AC solo”. ( should be like that if you solo a dungeon for 5 players, you also don’t melt a boss solo in 80 lvl zones with one shot). At the end a low lvl area is still way to easy for a lvl 80, i totally don’t see you point.

lvl 1 to 79 is just a way to lvl 80 where the game starts at that point you outplay a new player even if you had 30% of his power.

MiniEquine.6014:

So if you’re not upset, what, exactly, is the problem? The level 2 mobs are not going to kill you, and you are going to kill them just fine. If you choose not to play with your traits and utilities that you have to get those boosts, that’s fine, but that by no means invalidates the fact that they are there and can give you massive increases in damage even over a fully twinked low-level character.

You cannot ignore those boosts and simultaneously state that damage is lower from an 80. It’s disingenuous and doesn’t tell the full story.

To expand, no, I do not simply stand there and press 1. I dodge, I pop my utilities for fury, swiftness, and stability. I use my elite skills often on CD to burn through low-level enemies because it is faster. If you want to clear low-level stuff faster, do it.

Why do I have to be upset to talk about this?

Was the previous game state broken? Did I just miss the huge thread and the huge reddit on how level 80s were destroying the starting areas?

Why is there always the talk “if you cannot do it”?

Anyone can do it – PvE is easy.

The question is “why the change”?

I’m talking about this because I find it silly.
I expect my level 80 toon to do as much damage when is down scaled to level 6 as my level 6 toon with an auto attack.

Apparently that is a crazy expectation.
Don’t you expect your level 80 down scaled to level 6 to do as much damage with an auto attack as when it was level 6?

One can say “well this doesn’t change much, so why should Anet waste man power looking at this”?
It is true, it doesn’t change much.
On the other hand why did they waste man power changing the previous state in the first place?

Was this intended or just another opps,and will we ever know?Its all a bit depressing considering how hyped they got us for the xpax. The mess they made with the prepurchase then this double teq hp nonsense and the guardian symbol exploit.

ekarat.1085:

Two responses — one snarky, the other serious.

Snarky:
I will believe that scaling is a problem when lowbies dominate WvW. (Actually, I’m curious what happens if someone tries this.)

Serious:
It sounds like Anet tested this and found that if a level 80 had the same stats as a lowbie, then the level 80 would vastly outperform the lowbie. So, in order to make things more even, they had to have the level 80 have lower stats to compensate for all the advantages they have.

I agree that it’s counterintuitive for the lowbie to have a higher power stat (at the cost of weaker other stats — yes, the lowbie can better approximate a glass cannon because their gear only has 1 stat instead of 3 — we haven’t tried to equalize all stats yet and see how they compare then). However, this ends up giving the desired result.

The comparisons on the blog are artificial — the average lowbie will not have perfect gear, as it’s too much time/effort/money to constantly replace your gear as you level. Similarly, the downscaled character did not use anything that lowbie didn’t have access to — eg no elite.

In short, a twinked-out lowbie can do a better glass cannon than a downleveled 80, so the lowbie will have higher non-crit damage. However, in practice, lowbies don’t feel overpowered and downscaled 80s don’t really feel underpowered now. So, while I recognize that the stat difference seems odd, it is what is necessary to give the end results, and I care more about the end results.

The thing is that a real new player will be still be doing half the damage of a down leveled player and a third of tweeked low level toon.

So it doesn’t really sort the difference.

It seems to me that is just a nerf to dungeons (never cared much about them) and world bosses (still easy, just a bit more tedious) without stating it.

Basically they introduced a hard cap on how much of each stat your level 80 character can have if down leveled based on the rarity of its gear.

Intended or not i like the change

Swoo.5079:

MiniEquine.6014:

So if you’re not upset, what, exactly, is the problem? The level 2 mobs are not going to kill you, and you are going to kill them just fine. If you choose not to play with your traits and utilities that you have to get those boosts, that’s fine, but that by no means invalidates the fact that they are there and can give you massive increases in damage even over a fully twinked low-level character.

You cannot ignore those boosts and simultaneously state that damage is lower from an 80. It’s disingenuous and doesn’t tell the full story.

To expand, no, I do not simply stand there and press 1. I dodge, I pop my utilities for fury, swiftness, and stability. I use my elite skills often on CD to burn through low-level enemies because it is faster. If you want to clear low-level stuff faster, do it.

Why do I have to be upset to talk about this?

Was the previous game state broken? Did I just miss the huge thread and the huge reddit on how level 80s were destroying the starting areas?

Why is there always the talk “if you cannot do it”?

Anyone can do it – PvE is easy.

The question is “why the change”?

You literally just answered your own question with the bolded section. The previous game state was broken; there was little to no reason for an 80 to touch a <80 area, and when they did, it was not fun. PvE being easy is the problem. PvE can be easy, but it shouldn’t be exclusively easy. Making it more difficult for skilled/high-level players makes it more engaging.

I’m talking about this because I find it silly.
I expect my level 80 toon to do as much damage when is down scaled to level 6 as my level 6 toon with an auto attack.

Apparently that is a crazy expectation.
Don’t you expect your level 80 down scaled to level 6 to do as much damage with an auto attack as when it was level 6?

I do expect to do at least as much damage over time. You have only ever compared the base damage of auto-attacks, but have outright refused to acknowledge any boosts from acquired traits, skills, or armor/weapons. All of these things have a significant impact in the amount of damage you deal, and, when you factor them in, a level 6 will never out DPS a level 80 that is geared.

One can say “well this doesn’t change much, so why should Anet waste man power looking at this”?
It is true, it doesn’t change much.
On the other hand why did they waste man power changing the previous state in the first place?

“Was the previous game state broken? Did I just miss the huge thread and the huge reddit on how level 80s were destroying the starting areas?”

I did a zone for map completion on an 80 last week after the patch and did the same zone again yesterday on new character that was the “correct” level for the zone.

Still a lot easier and faster on the 80.

Swoo.5079:

Vizardlorde.8243:

he also has more crit chance, more crit damage, skills and traits >.>

4% to 8% crit chance is meh.

Level 40s also have skills and traits and is better level 20 than a level 80 is a level 20.

wana test if a lvl 40 guard can kill a lvl 40 champ faster than my downscaled lvl80 guard?

Does this down scaling change also affect dungeons? If so I think that explains why I was getting one shot in CoF P1 during the Acolyte phase. Before you could run through the flame thrower mobs, and if they pulled you back you just pop stability. But now, you die in 2 seconds.

Vizardlorde.8243:

Swoo.5079:

Vizardlorde.8243:

he also has more crit chance, more crit damage, skills and traits >.>

4% to 8% crit chance is meh.

Level 40s also have skills and traits and is better level 20 than a level 80 is a level 20.

wana test if a lvl 40 guard can kill a lvl 40 champ faster than my downscaled lvl80 guard?

I already said that champions and dungeons are the only places in general PvE that more traits matter.