Guild Wars 2

Dear fellow Guild Wars players.

My name is Jacob and I am currently studying for my MA. As part of the Theory side of my course I am writing about how the Charr are depicted in Guild Wars 2, how their narrative reflects perceptions of the losing forces after WW2. The Char used to be the enemy now they are allies. In the same way countries such as Germany were once enemies and how now Allies.

Despite Germans and other nations friendly status there is still a fair amount of animosity from our shared history. I am curious to see how much of these perceptions can be seen in the design for the Charr. For example the Charr are the race who first made use of Zeppelins, an image normally associated with kitten Germany.

I want to investigate further into these ideas, what other imagery (and maybe comments by NPC’s) are influenced by cultures perception of losing nations who are now allies. Are the Charr given a concept of ‘war guilt’?

Due to time however I am going to find it hard to discover all the possible examples of this. I have a max level Charr but I haven’t played for the last year due to my studies. I can’t remember specific examples and I am hoping that you, the players, could have a think and get back to me with some locations I can go and investigate on my own.

I won’t be quoting of any one as that would be a whole bunch of ethics forms I would be filling out, I instead need to go to the location of whatever you mention, so please include the exact location I need to find it.

Thank you for any help you can give.

Guild Wars 2 comparing to ww2….. sad thing to do if you ask me really.

Why? Game studies are pretty interesting. You can do such comparisons for films and TV, why not for a video game? Most narratives have roots in the real world, after all.

Sadly, I’m not a charr player myself, but I hope you ge the info you need, OP.

I thought the Charr won. They took over Ascalon and they are still there to this day. If that’s not winning, what is?

Unless OP is comparing the humans to the Germans and how they feel about the rest of the world and the Charr?

I think it’s more about the aftermath. The charr did hold a large chunk of Ascalon, though, and later lost some of it/didn’t get to conquering it because of the neccessary truce.
Now they are allied with their former mortal enemies and have to keep the peace, despite the continued efforts of splinter groups to sabotage it. People keep blaming them for things, despite the war being long over, and vice versa; history is not easily forgotten, even though younger generations have no personal stake in it anymore.
It’s a rather abstract comparison, but a valid one nonetheless. I’ve written my Bachelor’s thesis about video games, too, so I’m rather partial to these topics myself.

That comparison doesn’t really work, since the Charr won their war against Ascalon.

Really, you can’t compare any nation or race in GW straight to one in real life, since every culture in GW is a blend of various cultures in real life, and also purely original concepts. Charr culture is very different than that of any European culture. They are a pure military Meritocracy, where personal merit over any familial legacy is so important that parents don’t even raise their young, they are raised in a Farrar where their warband becomes their family in a very real sense.
The Charr government is also quite a bit different in that it’s a militarical Oligarchy where absolute power is held by 4 (now 3) individuals who are all descendants of the 4 sons of the Khan-Ur who united the Charr groups hundreds of years ago. This is the only case of Familial legacy existing in Charr culture, and there really is no equivalent in German culture, but was actually inspired by ancient Mongolian history.

The Charr Iron Legion was also a refugee nation for hundreds of years, having been forced out of their Homeland by ancient humans, who then renamed the land Ascalon. This is something that has never occurred to any German nation, but is actually more comparable to the History of the Jewish people.

As you can see, the Charr culture was inspired by many various real world cultures, Germany not really among them. The thing with the Zeppelins and other steam-punk technology is there because the Charr are currently at the hight of their industrial revolution, and thus their technology is reminiscent of Victorian era tech.

Pillock, if you want the absolute best examples of post war interaction, you should visit Ebonhawk in the Fields of Ruin. There is a great deal of interaction there between humans and Charr, as well as examples of renegade behavior from both sides.

(Edit: This post was meant as an answer to Gern’s.)

One could argue that the fahrar system is inspired by organisations like the Hitler youth, though. Loyalty to the country above loyalty to your family, sound familiar?
Likewise, the Iron Legion theme of being refugees you made – you do know that there have been many refugees during WW2 from territories that were German then, but aren’t now? Not to mention the countless times peoples who can be seen as ancestors of what today makes up the German people have been chased away from their homes by force or circumstance.

There are many aspects of German history that can be found, in a way, in GW2. A thing of fiction doesn’t have to be 1:1 copied from a real-life thing for a comparison to be made. And differences can be just as enlightening as similarities. I’d say OP has given this topic some thought already, if they decided to make it their thesis. They probably know what they are doing.

I think it’s (obviously) far easier to make comparisons between the Charr and Roman society (and certain Greek societies, such as Sparta) than it is to do the same with Charr and post-WW2 Germany and the attitudes towards post-WW2 Germany. But, as was stated above, cultures in GW/GW2 are based off of many different real-life cultures and societies.

This reminds me of when I got masters in mechanical engineering…. only in a strange bizzaro universe

RoseofGilead.8907:

I think it’s (obviously) far easier to make comparisons between the Charr and Roman society (and certain Greek societies, such as Sparta) than it is to do the same with Charr and post-WW2 Germany and the attitudes towards post-WW2 Germany. But, as was stated above, cultures in GW/GW2 are based off of many different real-life cultures and societies.

I agree with this – the Charr are influenced by the Roman thing, as shown by their language, titles and legion divisions. Their hierarchical structure is simplistic, which suggests a culture whose physical sciences and population level have advanced and overtaken their social ability to operate them (a bit like the period where Japanese Samurai became out of date).

As such, comparing Charr to a complex political dynamic like WW2 Germany, during or post war, isn’t going to get much depth. Maybe compare them to Rome during its ascent and decline and the similarities would be much more noteworthy.

If you want a race that compares better, you should look at the Asura and the rise of the Inquest, as well as their recovery from the loss of the underground homeland, which could well be a parallel for the WW1 loss that Germany endured. Their prioritisation of science over moral quandaries and their treatment of the Skritt and “lesser races” all have depth and similarities.

I don’t see the Charr as WW2 German analogues, actually. They’ve always struck me more as a mix of Romans, Klingons and Kzinti. WW2 Germany did draw on the Romans to some extent, being an expansionist regime that had to keep growing to sustain itself. The Charr had that same need (and possibly still do, but are in a regrouping phase). So I don’t really agree with the proposed thesis.

That said, there are some analogues to the tensions. A Charr in Camp Resolve growls “I don’t see why we have to take orders from mice and talking cabbages,” reflecting the perception of non-Charr as inferior species. Separatists in Ebonhawke put up posters demonizing the Charr and yell about the atrocities Charr perpetrated in the war (granted that’s something frozen in time from game launch, racial relations having had more than two years to normalize a bit). The ghosts of Ascalon (also frozen in time, but this time for in-game reasons) think the only good Charr is a dead Charr. Charr in the Black Citadel are grumpy about all the mice running around in their city.

By the way the zeppelins are Pact creations, not Charr, though some Charr tech went into them. The helicopters are more pure Charr. The more analogous bad airships were those of the Aetherblades used to firebomb LA, and the Aethers were a freelance mercenary army that appeared out of nowhere without warning in a completely logistically unbelievable manner. Their armor reflected a steam punkish version of WWI Germany rather than WWII, though.

chronometria.3708:

If you want a race that compares better, you should look at the Asura and the rise of the Inquest, as well as their recovery from the loss of the underground homeland, which could well be a parallel for the WW1 loss that Germany endured. Their prioritisation of science over moral quandaries and their treatment of the Skritt and “lesser races” all have depth and similarities.

That’s an interesting comparison I never thought of before.

And now I’m getting uncomfortable thoughts comparing Emissary Vorpp in “Meeting The Asura” to Josef Mengele. :\

Actually, thinking about it, while the Asura have clear parallels to Germany during the ww2 period, it is humans who may well best reflect the culture of Germany post WW2.

The human city of divinity’s reach is all that is left of the human society after the centaur nearly annihilated them and the powerful god dogma they believed in has been all but shattered. Their remaining leader is largely discredited and criminal elements influence politics heavily as does the quest for meaning in a world that no longer regards them as the rightful ruling race.

chronometria.3708:

RoseofGilead.8907:

I think it’s (obviously) far easier to make comparisons between the Charr and Roman society (and certain Greek societies, such as Sparta) than it is to do the same with Charr and post-WW2 Germany and the attitudes towards post-WW2 Germany. But, as was stated above, cultures in GW/GW2 are based off of many different real-life cultures and societies.

I agree with this – the Charr are influenced by the Roman thing, as shown by their language, titles and legion divisions. Their hierarchical structure is simplistic, which suggests a culture whose physical sciences and population level have advanced and overtaken their social ability to operate them (a bit like the period where Japanese Samurai became out of date).

As such, comparing Charr to a complex political dynamic like WW2 Germany, during or post war, isn’t going to get much depth. Maybe compare them to Rome during its ascent and decline and the similarities would be much more noteworthy.

If you want a race that compares better, you should look at the Asura and the rise of the Inquest, as well as their recovery from the loss of the underground homeland, which could well be a parallel for the WW1 loss that Germany endured. Their prioritisation of science over moral quandaries and their treatment of the Skritt and “lesser races” all have depth and similarities.

^

I think the Asura would be much closer to the WW2 Germany also. They lost their battle to keep their underground homes. Their scientific outlook on life to the point of fanaticism. Their belief in their mental superiority, their willingness to experiment on other sentient life forms and their disparagement of all other races as bookahs. All in all, the Asura outlook is much closer to Pre war Germany.

The Charr on the other hand won their war and still hold most of the old human areas in the Ascalon region. Maybe they didn’t get the whole thing, but they drove humans out and all that’s left of the old human cities there are ruins. Since they presumably still hold the old territories up north, the situation is closer to Germans conquering a good part of Europe and still holding it to this day.

I don’t think OPs characterization of the Charr as Germans after WW2 holds at all. The humans are in that position.

It will be really interesting to see what the Mursaat culture is like, seeing as they are back in Maguuma and were themselves, super hi-tech bad guys that were heavily defeated by societies they regarded as inferior.

Wow I’m really amazed by the number of comments here, thank you all for you insights and feedback. I think I need to clarify a few things here to ease the direction of this conversation however.

Firstly it is not the case that I think the Charr are based on post war Germany, as someone who does a lot of world building and concept art I know that there are a massive number of influences going into the Charr design. I’ve been really interested by everyone’s comments about how the Ausura actually bear a closer resemblance to the actual kitten regime. I will note that is post ww2 Germany that I am interested in, the current thoughts and perceptions of Germany, japan and other nations. How do we treat country’s that used to be our enemy but are now our friends. This is what the Charr are in GW2. In what way is this reflected in the game?

The second point is that this paper is more of an investigation, rather than me claiming that “X” will be the case. I am mealy curios to see to what degree the interactions between the losing nations from WW2 and the allied forces descendants interact. I live in England and there is a lot of ‘don’t mention the war’ jokes and general joking at the expense of Germans. In addition to this there is a perception by some of a kind of ‘war guilt’ associated with the atrocities performed during the war. For example the American bombing and Hiroshima and Nagasaki and how they are mentioned in films etc.

What I want to investigate is to what degree the interaction between the decedents of the WWII nations are reflected in the Charr and Humans as well as their overall design. For example Donari.5237 mentioned “Separatists in Ebonhawke put up posters demonizing the Charr and yell about the atrocities Charr perpetrated in the war” This is exactly the sort of thing I am after and also the kind of thing I don’t have time to find on my own. What I want to find are more things like this, comments, actions, or iconography that depict this interaction.

I might conclude by paper, which is only 6000 words by saying that there is no direct reference. None the less I still want to investigate it.

Thank you all for your comments, its already given a lot of thoughts. 6000 words really isn’t enough.

Red Queen.7915:

(Edit: This post was meant as an answer to Gern’s.)

One could argue that the fahrar system is inspired by organisations like the Hitler youth, though. Loyalty to the country above loyalty to your family, sound familiar?
Likewise, the Iron Legion theme of being refugees you made – you do know that there have been many refugees during WW2 from territories that were German then, but aren’t now? Not to mention the countless times peoples who can be seen as ancestors of what today makes up the German people have been chased away from their homes by force or circumstance.

There are many aspects of German history that can be found, in a way, in GW2. A thing of fiction doesn’t have to be 1:1 copied from a real-life thing for a comparison to be made. And differences can be just as enlightening as similarities. I’d say OP has given this topic some thought already, if they decided to make it their thesis. They probably know what they are doing.

That comparison still doesn’t work, because the Charr won their war against Ascalon and the Iron legion was kicked out of their homeland in ancient history, not recent.

As for that last bit, The OP asked for our opinions on this. If he was 100% confident in his own position, he wouldn’t have wanted us to respond, and wouldn’t have even posted it here. So I don’t even understand what you are trying to get at with that.

A much closer comparison of the interaction of Humans and Charr, would be the Nations that rose out the collapsed Roman Empire, and the Turks after the fall of Constantinople. The humans being the Kingdoms which felt a connection to their Roman heritage, and the Charr obviously being the Turks. This comparison also works from a technological point of view, because the Ottoman Empire was at the cutting edge of military technology for many centuries. They perfected the use of cannons and firearms in warfare, and even had the Janissaries, who bear striking similarities to the Charr Farrar system.

Is this the kind of thing that passes for an MA thesis? Stunning.

OP,

Obviously this will vary from individual to individual and will be different based on where you are from, but where I am we dont really even think of Germany and Japan as former enemies anymore. Or at least not outside of a purely academic sense where we know that WW2 occured and, generally, why.

They are the coutries that produce the cars we drive, operate the financial institutions where we bank, produce some really top notch beers that we drink, and so on. Germany and Japan are part of who we are now. I cant drive through my home town without seeing a sushi restaurant or kobi steak joint and every restaurant or bar sells german beer.

These countries are among our most steadfast allies now. I expect that only England and Canada compare in this regard.

the reality is that the comparison you are looking for is likely impossible because there are current active hostilities between the races in GW2.

The analogy doesn’t work on several levels:

• Ascalon was originally charr territory; the humans invaded them.
• The animosity between charr & humans could be easily compared to other longstanding historical conflicts: Palestine/Israel, Scotland/England, Hatfield/McCoys, Bavaria/Prussia.
• Technological advances in Pact technology come from many sources, more often Vigil, Whispers, or Priory, and less often charr, asura, human, sylvari, or norn.
• I don’t see ‘war guilt’ from the charr. There are no reparations paid to humans, no treaty compelling charr to make accommodations for minorities.

That said, I don’t think it’s a waste of time to find historical and fictional sources for some of the lore in GW2, but I’d look more broadly rather than try to fit the square peg of Germany’s history 1918-1945 into the round hole of the charr’s history.

The Charr as Germans and the Tyrians as the allies don’t match up at all and it would be hard for us to compare with them in terms of forgiveness, since we won. The Tyrians lost so much, there is really no comparison between them and the Allied side. Forgiveness is harder and more fragile for losers than winners forgiving the losing side.

OP needs a model instead for where one side was the loser in the war and the winning side is still there and doing well. The closest I can think of off hand would be the American Indians (Tyria) and the US (Charr).

chronometria.3708:

Actually, thinking about it, while the Asura have clear parallels to Germany during the ww2 period, it is humans who may well best reflect the culture of Germany post WW2.

The human city of divinity’s reach is all that is left of the human society after the centaur nearly annihilated them and the powerful god dogma they believed in has been all but shattered. Their remaining leader is largely discredited and criminal elements influence politics heavily as does the quest for meaning in a world that no longer regards them as the rightful ruling race.

i dunno man, sounds more like russia… the fall of the czars followed by decades of rampant corruption, unrest, and upheaval?

I’m bumping this cause it’s interesting stuff.

while I think that A.net probably borrowed some stuff from real world history and cultures, i don’t think you can make an analogy like that.

The Charr are still a militaristic species which doesn’t fit to Postwar Germany at all. The Charr didn’t lose a war, they managed to accomplish their main goal, reconquering Ascalon.
The Charr didn’t get parted in zones and they for sure didn’t lose contact to half of their people because of other nations playing cold war.
but first and most important the Charr didn’t start with an “hour 0” like Germany.
they still had a culture, they still knew they were charr, there was no culture of feeling guilts about what their ancestors did, they had buildings and they still had the hierachical structure of their society.
Germany after WW2 was a mess. The houses and cities were destroyed, the laws and the constitution wasn’t valid anymore, the Germans didn’t even know if there would be a Germany again. The national identity was scattered, which was a pretty drastic change especially since the state before was so strongly focusing on national identity.
Not to forget that the Cold War made Germany a playball between America and the Soviet Union.

i think another important difference, is that the Germans of Postwar Germany got back to their selfimage from the 19th century, as “poets and thinkers” and the typical structure of “Schaffe schaffe Häusle baue” (work, work, build houses), which is not fitting the selfimage of the Charr at all.
Charr are predatory creatures that work together in a Warband and legion to conquer. They build and create and do diplomacy, but they don’t do it to make themself a home again. they do it to bring forward the strategy of conquering.

And actually I have the feeling that the charr need outside enemies, like the Ascalonian ghosts and the humans and now the Dragons, because otherwise the legions and warband would start to fight each other.
So they use outside “problems” as a distraction from disputes within their own society.
And this is a concept that is also known from other countries like America or Russia for example.

Another wellknown concept that we know from tons of other nations is “We snatch a piece of land from another ethnicity and then tell it’s our own homeland and we have a birthright to own it and settle there”.
We have seen this in history with Germans, Dutch, Americans, Britains, Romans, Russians, Israelis, to some point Greeks, Turks, Chineses, Japaneses… etc.etc.
that doesn’t mean that the Charr are meant to be an analogy of any of these ethnicities and cultures, but that A.net used this concept to make their point of the charr being species that is focus on war and conquer, but that their culture also justifies this as an in-born right.

I’m actually slightly annoyed by this. Not every war-focused or “evil” fantasy species is meant to be an analogy to the Germans or the Russians. There is a reason why it is called “fantasy”. Yes, there may be motifs and concepts of the real world cultures and history used to make story-wise a certain points across. but that doesn’t make them “German” or “Russian” ir “Roman” or “American”.
A.net would be pretty stupid if they used their species as direct analogies to real world nations, because there are players from that nations too, and most people don’t like being limited by stereotypes.

If I were you, I’d try to find a different thesis for which you can find more literature and scientifically usable sources.
BTW: I think as a German four generations after the war, I don’t feel much animousity from the people form other nations from my genetration. there’s some from people that were child back then, but I can understand why.
the animousity of some Americans and the practice of using the nickname of “the nationalsocialistic party in Germany at the beginning of the 20th century” to jokingly talking about nitpicking or very strickt behaviour is more influenced by the depiction of Germans in modern media as “classical bad guys” than actual contact ith the German nationality.

The use of combat zeppelins was mostly WW1, not WW2. Though the use of barracading balloons in WW2 was clear close to vulnerable targets most likely to be attacked by divebombers, they were unmanned and used to hinder enemy operations, as opposed to combat ballons (reconaisance) and zeppelins (bombardment (trials) and combat missions (mostly reconaisance))

The fact humans and charr have been at war for a long time was mostly GW1 lore. There seems to be a fragile peace/cease-fire now between charr and humans after the exodus from Ascalon after the Searing, but the Charr invaded only a small strip of land….Charr haven’t taken the war to other area’s, The only area which was taken was the area(s) below the great wall, Mostly Plains of Ashford (pre searing gw1) and the Fields of Ruin, maybe, but the main city there being Ebonhawke seems mostly human still… The fact there is still peace communications & negotiations in the fields of ruin shoud suggest this is a truce for now, but not yet a definitive peace….Though the dragon problem has clear priority….

This seems above the fighting factions of our present RL world who cannot seem to find enoough importance in a common cause in some cases and refusing to join the ring of world leaders to adress the major problems instead of spending billions and billions in trivial conflict. United Nations excluded

@OP:

I think you need to think little bit out of box here. You have set view that humans are good side in gw2.
However humans invaded charr and ascalon, and then later charr took ascalon back and wiped humans from orr as well.
So now you have humans defeated, they only own small portion of map they used to (kryta). On the other hand charr (allies) own huge lands, and they are righteous.
Now you can compare them post war.
Humans didn’t rebound as well as germans. While germans rebuild and became one of top powers in world, humans in gw2 seem rather stale, they do not innovate much etc…
Charr on the other hand, as winners are having great time, they are strong military power, have huge lands. They still have to deal with left over fanatics (ghosts), but I think they are doing just fine.

Yeah, Charr don’t have any guilt… because the war ain’t over

I think a case might be made for comparing the Searing and the fall of Orr to the use of atomic weapons at the end of WW2, but that doesn’t paint the charr as the Germans.

Personally, I think you might be better off looking at the post Season 1 interactions added in with sylvari than at anything to do with the charr.

The Charr is comparable to Communist China by Mao Ze Dong vs the Kuomintang of Chiang Kai Shek, which retreated to Taiwan.

I think Ebonhawk and the Ascalonians with the destroyed city, the little bubbles of animousity, but the overall will for peace. After being very strong in the past, being hurt, broke now, feeling weak and left alone or misunderstood by their allies (Queen Jenna), fits the Germans after WW2 much better.
the humans have killed many charr and grawls. they treated the other species as animals and even made armor out of the dead charr. Socially dehumanizing people is one of the main dynamics that happen all kind of situation when a state/society is killing other humans . it is important to keep the rules of society intact and make sure that morally it is still forbidden to kill “humans” , since when it is allowed to kill humans the society wll bit by bit lose it’s protection and support function, which is one of the major functions why people form a group. You can see that very well in German history but also in the history of other countries.
Or hen we want to stay in the fantasy genere I’d call it the Stormtrooper-syndrom. they don’t seem “human” so it “feels” less morally wrong to kill them without guilt.
I think it was a similiar process with the humans of Guildwars1 treating most of the charr as soulless animals instead of sentient beings.
the Ascalonians did terrible things, but they also have seen their nation getting rollercoastered by the charrs and have experienced their people getting killed and their houses getting burned down and now they’re weak, having to deal ith the aftermath and policially wedged in between the two strong nations, kryta and the charr. I think that fits Germany if the late 40ies to the 80ies of the 20th century pretty well.

The Charr I feel should be compared to Genghis Khan……their brutal military culture resembles the culture of the Mongols…..The Char Legions = the Mongol Hordes (Genghis Khan depopulated China so that he could have grazing lands for his horses o.O comparable to what was done in Ascalon I feel)

Humans are a good fit for post world war 1 struggling Germany.

And please don’t bring us Asura into this! the Master Race is above such silly displays of Human nature! Our superiority will be accepted naturally without need for any coercion.

Dude, how you can compare 80+ million dead people to a game universe? It is total kitten. And hell don’t say to me that Germany is free country nowdays…. with 35 US bases (60% of all US military installation in Europe) they apparently protecting Germany from Iran and North Korea lol.

Yakez.7561:

Dude, how you can compare 80+ million dead people to a game universe? It is total kitten. And hell don’t say to me that Germany is free country nowdays…. with 35 US bases (60% of all US military installation in Europe) they apparently protecting Germany from Iran and North Korea lol.

Might have to go with % of population that died rather than raw numbers as I doubt the human population in Tyria approaches anywhere near the human population on earth.

Since the humans lost a large part of their land and the smaller amount of land they now live on is not densely populated by humans, they could have lost more people, relatively speaking, with the Charr invasion.

I’m sorry for the confusion here but I don’t think I have fully articulated what I’m trying to do here. It’s in my head but I’m clearly not getting it down on the page correctly.
I am not saying that I think the Charr are based on poste or pre WWII Germany.
What I want to do is investigate how the relationship between two nations that were once at war but now allied are represented in the game through the relationship between the Charr and the Humans.
My great great grandparents came over from Germany just before the First World War. Their son who was classed as a German while fighting in the British army would not receive care packages from Christian groups because he was the enemy. Now in England there is no hatred of Germany, but there is a low level joking, comedian Henning Vane cannot appear on a BBC radio show without some joke about the war being made.
For most it is just jokes, in other ways it’s a mild resentment. For example why is it that Germany is so often the default bad guy in films? (along with English accents which is also to do with how Americans perceive England).
Germany is just one example of what I am talking about and its just the one I am most familiar with.
What I want to see is how the interaction between the Charr and the Humans plays out. Is there tension, if so how? Are there examples of iconography in the Charrs depiction from the ‘villains of history’ so to speak? In what positive ways are the Charr and Humans shown to interact with regard to their old war? Do they ever speak of forgiving each other or are there small groups that still hold bitterness?
This is what I am hoping you can all help me with. I want to find examples in game of how the player is exposed to the character of these two races and the interaction during and after the war. One gentalman mentioned a group putting up anti-Charr propaganda posters. That’s exactly what I am after. Are there any quests that confront these issues? Are there some old Charr doods sat around saying how much they wish they could keep fighting humans and then a younger one telling them to stop living in the past?
I don’t know, this is what I need to find and I hope you can help me.

OP,

Obviously this will vary from individual to individual and will be different based on where you are from, but where I am we dont really even think of Germany and Japan as former enemies anymore. Or at least not outside of a purely academic sense where we know that WW2 occured and, generally, why…….
the reality is that the comparison you are looking for is likely impossible because there are current active hostilities between the races in GW2.

I hope you will now understand that this is not the point I am trying to make. I’m interested in the interaction of nations that were once at war but now at peace. If there is no comment of it in the game (which I doubt) then that will be the conclusion of my essay.

That said, I don’t think it’s a waste of time to find historical and fictional sources for some of the lore in GW2, but I’d look more broadly rather than try to fit the square peg of Germany’s history 1918-1945 into the round hole of the charr’s history.

I think again you have missed my point. I never said that I was looking at comparisons to 1918-45 Germany. I am looking at the interactions between England/America and 2015 Germany. The only reason I mentioned the Zeppelins as it was something that I thought was more of a Charr thing and it’s also general used in cinema to indicate when someone has gone to an alternate history where the kitten’s won the war. In terms of Semiotics it has a very strong resonance for westerners.

Oreithyia.3064:

I’m actually slightly annoyed by this. Not every war-focused or “evil” fantasy species is meant to be an analogy to the Germans or the Russians. There is a reason why it is called “fantasy”. Yes, there may be motifs and concepts of the real world cultures and history used to make story-wise a certain points across. but that doesn’t make them “German” or “Russian” ir “Roman” or “American”.
A.net would be pretty stupid if they used their species as direct analogies to real world nations, because there are players from that nations too, and most people don’t like being limited by stereotypes.
If I were you, I’d try to find a different thesis for which you can find more literature and scientifically usable sources.
BTW: I think as a German four generations after the war, I don’t feel much animousity from the people form other nations from my genetration. there’s some from people that were child back then, but I can understand why.
the animousity of some Americans and the practice of using the nickname of “the nationalsocialistic party in Germany at the beginning of the 20th century” to jokingly talking about nitpicking or very strickt behaviour is more influenced by the depiction of Germans in modern media as “classical bad guys” than actual contact ith the German nationality.

Again I am sorry for annoying you but I think the issues is that I haven’t explained myself very well. This whole question could as easily be to do with the English and Scott’s, Russian and Americans, England and America. Germany is just the country that I thought of first because it is something I notice more due to my own heratige. I always get (friendly) jokes from people when I mention that my family came over from Germany (I’m very arian looking as well).
I’m not looking for direct comparisons between the Charr and any one nation. Just the way that previously enemy groups, now allies, interact. I don’t care what cultures I look at as part of this so long as I am looking at the Charr and Humans.

“the depiction of Germans in modern media as “classical bad guys” than actual contact ith the German nationality.”
And that is exactly what I am investigating and why I used Germany as an example.

Duncanmix.5238:

@OP:

I think you need to think little bit out of box here. You have set view that humans are good side in gw2.
However humans invaded charr and ascalon, and then later charr took ascalon back and wiped humans from orr as well.
So now you have humans defeated, they only own small portion of map they used to (kryta). On the other hand charr (allies) own huge lands, and they are righteous.
Now you can compare them post war.
Humans didn’t rebound as well as germans. While germans rebuild and became one of top powers in world, humans in gw2 seem rather stale, they do not innovate much etc…
Charr on the other hand, as winners are having great time, they are strong military power, have huge lands. They still have to deal with left over fanatics (ghosts), but I think they are doing just fine.

I think the problem is that I didn’t communicate well and that everyone assumes I am not thinking outside the box. I hope having read the rest of what I have said here you can see more where I am going. Interms of the motivations for the conflict I in no way see the Charr as evil. When I was playing GW1 and I discovered that the humans had taken what was Charr land it made me see the Charr more as Native Americans driven out of their land, just in this world they had the power to beat of the English settlers who became the foreign Americans.

Personally the only race I’ve played before was the Charr and when I played Wow I only ever played the Hord because I liked being the good guys. I never saw the Alliance as good (just prissy) and I don’t see the Charr as bad. But I wonder if any of the designers weren’t thinking outside the box? That’s more the question.

Oreithyia.3064:

I think Ebonhawk and the Ascalonians with the destroyed city, the little bubbles of animousity, but the overall will for peace. After being very strong in the past, being hurt, broke now, feeling weak and left alone or misunderstood by their allies (Queen Jenna), fits the Germans after WW2 much better…..
the Ascalonians did terrible things, but they also have seen their nation getting rollercoastered by the charrs and have experienced their people getting killed and their houses getting burned down and now they’re weak, having to deal ith the aftermath and policially wedged in between the two strong nations, kryta and the charr. I think that fits Germany if the late 40ies to the 80ies of the 20th century pretty well.

I think you’ve better understood what I’m getting at here than most people. Thanks for mentioning Ebonhawk Stronghold, I’ll have to go check it out. Anywhere in the city you can especially remember Charr/Human interactions being most prominent?
Also don’t forget people I am after positive interactions between the Charr and Humans (preferably with reference to the war) as well as negative.

Thank you for all your comments and thoughts, I’m sorry for not properly communicating what I was after, I hope this post has cleared it up a little. Never the less I have still really enjoyed reading your comments and it has really helped me develop my ideas for this essay.