Guild Wars 2

Clever marketing

Oh look, this nonsense again.

The Words Of The Profits

I’m a true believer in the Holy Manifesto, and though GW2 may not be a perfect realization of its sacred precepts, it comes a lot closer than any other game I’ve played.

Is that enough?

I hope ArenaNet doesn’t think so (I don’t ever want them to be satisfied with the status quo), but when I look at every other alternative available, GW2 is as good as it gets.

YMMV, and if you can find a better game, play it.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Prototypemind.4026:

My biggest gripe is that come end game, everything comes down to gold. If you want that amazing ascended set or some other pieces you’ve been hoping for, you don’t go out and slay this creature and barter with that merchant; you go grind SW, or get your magic find up and grind mobs, etc and sell whatever you get. Or you stop playing for a while and just wait until your daily rewards build up, buy mats, and sell those to get your gold. That is the worst part of their failure, that the grind for gold is the standard for “achieving” what you want for your character. They literally have the worst system of any MMO that I’ve played in that you cannot even grind specific mobs for what you want in some cases, it’s simply most lucrative to hope you get high dollar drops that can be sold or dismantled for money in order to buy what you really want.

Anet themselves acknowledged this back in 2013 with their planned changes for Legendary Weapons, which will be coming to fruition with HoT. I hope that they incorporate a similar system for Ascended armor, and for the ability to unlock at least one cosmetic set this way as well. The grind that’s in place now is to me one of the worst failures of this game and its Devs’ original intent.

I guess it’s all a matter of time. I’m working on Ascended Armor, and I haven’t purchased a single mat (for anything). I collect all my mats by playing here and there. Mostly wherever the Dailies send me, lol. It’s not the fastest way, I’m sure, but I neither farm nor grind…ever.

Each to their own.

The point was more that you can’t go out and directly farm what you need for many of the items in the game. This is the only MMO I’ve played like that, and again, it means the most efficient way is to farm the highest gold value items, and then later buy what you actually want/need off the MP.

To sum it up, in other games if I want something, I can go out in the world and gain what I need directly; in GW2, I get to play real life sim, and work my 9 to 5 earning gold so that I can buy my Ascended mats on the weekend when I’m off.

Prototypemind.4026:

The point was more that you can’t go out and directly farm what you need for many of the items in the game.

That is definitely a flaw with this game, and something I admit I miss from GW1. I farm ‘x’ and I get ‘y.’ Maybe not lots of it. Maybe it takes me ages to do it, but I could do it.

Granted, I didn’t think it was that big a deal with GW2 before, but I have come to feel otherwise. I think their heart was in the right place with the initial design, but I miss being able to really farm for a specific thing (not something I though I would ever say). Still, perhaps with the coming map bonus rewards, we might see a bit of an..easement…in that frustration.

Prototypemind.4026:

The point was more that you can’t go out and directly farm what you need for many of the items in the game. This is the only MMO I’ve played like that, and again, it means the most efficient way is to farm the highest gold value items, and then later buy what you actually want/need off the MP.

To sum it up, in other games if I want something, I can go out in the world and gain what I need directly; in GW2, I get to play real life sim, and work my 9 to 5 earning gold so that I can buy my Ascended mats on the weekend when I’m off.

Any time the word “efficient” enters the conversation, the answer will always be “you need to grind SOMETHING”.

In most other games if you want item A, you must go out into the world and complete task A repeatedly until you have item A. In GW2, if you want item A, you have the option to do nearly any task and will accrue the gold necessary to have item A. The lack of heavily targeted farming (you can still target farm most things) is what allows this game to give people the option to play the content they enjoy and still get rewards whereas other games coerce you into specific content for rewards.

Obviously the players who want their rewards most efficiently will discover the route that is most efficient and will grind it out until they have what they want. They could have had the item without grinding, but they chose to trade enjoyment of the game for expediency.

The distributed reward system in GW2 allows players to have options as well as keeps the economy healthy by encouraging participation. I’ve played many games where I quickly monopolized the in-game economy simply because it was so stagnant that it was easy to manipulate. A healthy economy is dynamic, which prevents a player or a cartel of players from being able to monopolize the economy.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Prototypemind.4026:

The point was more that you can’t go out and directly farm what you need for many of the items in the game.

That is definitely a flaw with this game, and something I admit I miss from GW1. I farm ‘x’ and I get ‘y.’ Maybe not lots of it. Maybe it takes me ages to do it, but I could do it.

Granted, I didn’t think it was that big a deal with GW2 before, but I have come to feel otherwise. I think their heart was in the right place with the initial design, but I miss being able to really farm for a specific thing (not something I though I would ever say). Still, perhaps with the coming map bonus rewards, we might see a bit of an..easement…in that frustration.

Wouldn’t one of the major differences be the lack of an ingame trading post in Guild Wars 1? Without a trading post it was too inefficient to sell or buy your items by spamming WTS/WTT, which means the game must offer the items through targeted farming or no one could reasonably get them. With the addition of a trading post, that means farming can become more diffuse and people can play one part of the game while still getting what they need, by slow acquisition or selling what they don’t need and buying what they do.

One could argue that this very diffuseness makes the trading post more active and better. If you can get exactly what you need by farming directly, then you don’t need to buy it and the items that you put up for sell, will sell more slowly and at a lower price as other people don’t need them since they also will be getting what they want through farming.

I don’t mind the heavy grind, I actually kind of enjoyed it. Farming for gold and progressing my account with gem upgrades is what interested me most.

What I can’t stand is the constant F-ery of them completely overhauling traits, skills, and “balance” every 6 months. I’ve had to completely re-adjust to altered builds, skills, and classes on multiple occasions, and when I spend months getting used to how a class plays, that kittens me off.

Leveling up, trait unlocking, skill point acquisition, all were great for the first year or so. Then there was the first major stunbreaker reshuffle/class rebalance. Then there was the New Player Experience and all the level gating that came with it. Now this Diablo 3 oversimplified trait/hero point system that didn’t just make major changes to every single build and character I own, but also REMOVED skills and trait lines I used to have fully unlocked on my 80’s, requiring me to pay for them again in banked skill-hero points.

Megaserver that made world bosses a complete pain in the kitten by funneling everyone into a single server creating extreme frame drops and out of control scaling. Then the condition damage changes that made world bosses go from boring kitten 7 minute long snoozefests to 30 second KO’s, back to boring kitten snoozefests with a massive HP increase to compensate.

The complete destruction of the daily achievement system that took even more of the “player freedom” and variety of choices we used to have, and replaced them with go where we tell you to go, do exactly what we decide you should do, just like their god awful NPE trait unlocking scavenger nonsense.

Can’t even loot a dungeon chest more than once a day now, regardless of how many alts you’ve built, because 90% of rewards that used to repeatable or at least per-character eventually are nerfed to once per-day per-account.

The game as it is today is so completely different from the one I bought at launch, it makes me question what a studio is legally able to get away with when they just wake up one day and decide to go in another direction. If they all of a sudden wanted to turn the game into a Pac-Man clone next patch, is that within their rights based on the EULA?

It’s kind of changed my attitude towards whether I ever want to purchase another always-online streaming content client game, as opposed to a patch-elective multiplayer or single player game. At least then I can choose not to patch to an update I don’t agree with.

I used to be heavily addicted to this game where I had a long stretch of time where I was averaging something ridiculous like 6 hours a day. For the past several months I’ve been logging in a few minutes tops to build my laurel count, in the event the game is ever returned to its former glory. There was even a period of a few months after last Wintersday where I didn’t even bother to log in at all. So I guess if nothing else they at least freed me of my addiction by slowly and methodically breaking everything that originally made this game fun, for me anyways.

Maybe if Guild Wars 3 is completely free to play without an initial box purchase I’ll consider playing. At least then when they decide to nuke their game from orbit I’m only out a time investment, not my time and my money.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Prototypemind.4026:

The point was more that you can’t go out and directly farm what you need for many of the items in the game.

That is definitely a flaw with this game, and something I admit I miss from GW1. I farm ‘x’ and I get ‘y.’ Maybe not lots of it. Maybe it takes me ages to do it, but I could do it.

Granted, I didn’t think it was that big a deal with GW2 before, but I have come to feel otherwise. I think their heart was in the right place with the initial design, but I miss being able to really farm for a specific thing (not something I though I would ever say). Still, perhaps with the coming map bonus rewards, we might see a bit of an..easement…in that frustration.

Wouldn’t one of the major differences be the lack of an ingame trading post in Guild Wars 1? Without a trading post it was too inefficient to sell or buy your items by spamming WTS/WTT, which means the game must offer the items through targeted farming or no one could reasonably get them. With the addition of a trading post, that means farming can become more diffuse and people can play one part of the game while still getting what they need, by slow acquisition or selling what they don’t need and buying what they do.

One could argue that this very diffuseness makes the trading post more active and better. If you can get exactly what you need by farming directly, then you don’t need to buy it and the items that you put up for sell, will sell more slowly and at a lower price as other people don’t need them since they also will be getting what they want through farming.

That’s a valid argument, but that’s not the perspective I was looking at it from. Yes, you can play whatever you desire to play and still be able to acquire anything you may so desire, because gold is king. Nothing wrong with that, in the sense you’re approaching it from.

Well, except for the terrible loot drops and the fact that you never really get anything of value. Which is why when people ask “how do I make gold” people respond with speed clearing dungeons, playing the tp, etc. Want t6 mats? Spend laurels on heavy crafting bags or farm gold and buy them off the tp.

While it’s nice that those options are there, they shouldn’t necessarily be the “only viable option.” If people want to go farm ‘x’ to get ‘y’ then that option should be viable too, but its not presently. It sort of comes back to that “play how you want” thing…

Stroush.6972:

Hello everyone,
Does anyone remember Anet’s MMO Manifesto?

If we were ever allowed to forget it, possibly. But someone brings it up again in some form in unnecessarily small increments of time. Even monthly would be too often for something that’s really not relevant to the game three years later, but I suspect weekly or daily is more accurate.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Prototypemind.4026:

The point was more that you can’t go out and directly farm what you need for many of the items in the game.

That is definitely a flaw with this game, and something I admit I miss from GW1. I farm ‘x’ and I get ‘y.’ Maybe not lots of it. Maybe it takes me ages to do it, but I could do it.

Granted, I didn’t think it was that big a deal with GW2 before, but I have come to feel otherwise. I think their heart was in the right place with the initial design, but I miss being able to really farm for a specific thing (not something I though I would ever say). Still, perhaps with the coming map bonus rewards, we might see a bit of an..easement…in that frustration.

Wouldn’t one of the major differences be the lack of an ingame trading post in Guild Wars 1? Without a trading post it was too inefficient to sell or buy your items by spamming WTS/WTT, which means the game must offer the items through targeted farming or no one could reasonably get them. With the addition of a trading post, that means farming can become more diffuse and people can play one part of the game while still getting what they need, by slow acquisition or selling what they don’t need and buying what they do.

One could argue that this very diffuseness makes the trading post more active and better. If you can get exactly what you need by farming directly, then you don’t need to buy it and the items that you put up for sell, will sell more slowly and at a lower price as other people don’t need them since they also will be getting what they want through farming.

That’s a valid argument, but that’s not the perspective I was looking at it from. Yes, you can play whatever you desire to play and still be able to acquire anything you may so desire, because gold is king. Nothing wrong with that, in the sense you’re approaching it from.

Well, except for the terrible loot drops and the fact that you never really get anything of value. Which is why when people ask “how do I make gold” people respond with speed clearing dungeons, playing the tp, etc. Want t6 mats? Spend laurels on heavy crafting bags or farm gold and buy them off the tp.

While it’s nice that those options are there, they shouldn’t necessarily be the “only viable option.” If people want to go farm ‘x’ to get ‘y’ then that option should be viable too, but its not presently. It sort of comes back to that “play how you want” thing…

I’ve only played guild wars so not having other game experience, how do you make a game where everyone has good loot drops if the game isn’t a gear progression game and has an active trading post so that most things can be bought?

If it drops frequently enough, it’s not good since you and everyone else has it and the price is low on the trading post. If it drops rarely, it’s a good drop but this returns to the problem where one never gets good drops as the good drops are few and far between.

Most games, as I understand them, have good drops because of gear progression. By the time you gear up your main and all your alts, the next expansion requires it all over again. Without this, the only way I can see the game having “good drops” is to either have things account bound but modestly rare (so they can’t be sold) or to continuosly push out new skins that need to be crafted or farmed as a rare drop.

So how would this game have good and frequent drops?

Ihrga.8325:

Gaaroth.2567:

I never tackled this topic so far, but i want to write this down, in bullets so you can easly understand:

• manifesto = intents, and you can’t always deliver what you want;
• things changed at release because they had to, not because they wanted to troll us saying A then doing B after a month for the sake of it
• an example is ascended gear, implemented because people didn’t have a goal to GRIND, now they cry about the grind. LOL
• i’m not whiteknighting anybody, but being a dev myself i know that sometimes you have to change what you dream to program, because kitten happends
• they addressed the grind issue saying they do no want people to grind to enjoybevery aspect of the game, and THIS IS TRUE, and do not philophize about fractal 50 not available because of ascended because you’d look dumb. That’s progression, not gear check in a WoW sense. Because look, some dungeons or world bosses require coordination and knowledge to complete, are you saying is bad because you have to grind the “skill” to make them? LOL because to become skillful you have to repeat the content over and over to be good.
  If everything is handed over and doesn’t require some sort of work/time spent, the game would cleared and dead in 1 month…no exceptions, because that’s how it works. Get over it.

Didn’t start like a ranted but i got carried. Sorry. Peace&loot.

So…

• Intents? Really? Check this out: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/manifest

• How about inform people at first sight of such changes?

• Ascended – Weak example showing only that devs do not have imagination for more. Right? Or you find smth else to support this already lost affair?

• Some? Yeah right: triple trouble and Tequatl and THAT’S IT! In dungeons there is a simple thing like stack or run and kite. TWO! Seems like ANet likes that number. =) And as for “skill” term there is no skill in GW2 in true sense of it (mayb in SPVP, but tanky mandatory builds come to mind). You can open any guide, look for some high regen build for ANY class and you are done. For everything PVE wise. And you can F*** up as much as you want. So since when does build and gear composition = skill? BTW repeating content does NOT make you skillful – it trains your memory – thats it. You remember just a simpleton pattern to follow. Nice! Skill at its finest! sarcasm

So no matter how much time and effort this product has gotten it still lacks. Goals, skill gradation, boring quest system, unimaginative world events that are shallow. Seems like the dev team can’t do better. Get over it and stop whiteknighting obvios things!

LOL at linking definition to a different word. Now, check out the actual definition for manifesto http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/manifesto

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I’ve only played guild wars so not having other game experience, how do you make a game where everyone has good loot drops if the game isn’t a gear progression game and has an active trading post so that most things can be bought?

I don’t have all the answers Flesh. GW1 wasn’t gear progression, and yes it dropped a lot of trash, but it still had a decent number of “good” drops that you could at least vendor for a reasonable return. I made more then enough gold between just drops from “playing the game” and quests in gw1, but seem to be unable to do anything remotely similar here. Maybe hearts just need to have a bit more of a monetary reward added to them. Maybe they could add chests and lockpicks back into the game. Maybe they could give us an elite area that has something akin to shards and ecto from GW1 which people could farm semi-reliably for a semi-stable exchange.

Obviously I only have my husband’s, and my own experiences to work from, at least for first hand info. And I have what I have observed when playing with others, but that is taken out of the greater picture as I’m not with those people all the time. But kitten if it doesn’t feel like we’re cursed at times. Still, we’ve kind of moved away from the topic of farming for a specific item and ventured more into the general acquisition of gold as it relates back to “good drops.”

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If it drops frequently enough, it’s not good since you and everyone else has it and the price is low on the trading post. If it drops rarely, it’s a good drop but this returns to the problem where one never gets good drops as the good drops are few and far between.

Yes, if something drops often its value plummets, I get that. Still, given what we have seen (and what people often complain about), I sometimes wonder if their loot algorithm might not be a bit skewed. No I’m not talking about random seeds and all the conspiracy stuff. More of an elusive bug that doesn’t trigger every time, and as such is 1)hard to reproduce and 2)even harder to find.

I understand that RNG is a necessary evil in these types of games, but at times I think they’ve gone a tad overboard on it.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Most games, as I understand them, have good drops because of gear progression. By the time you gear up your main and all your alts, the next expansion requires it all over again. Without this, the only way I can see the game having “good drops” is to either have things account bound but modestly rare (so they can’t be sold) or to continuosly push out new skins that need to be crafted or farmed as a rare drop.

I don’t necessarily agree with your thought here. As I said, GW1 had (what I would consider, and other opinions will obviously vary) “good drops” and it wasn’t a gear progression game. Although, I wouldn’t be opposed to them pushing out new skins for us cosmetic hunters. We’re well overdue for a new batch to chase through actual game play.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

So how would this game have good and frequent drops?

As I said, I don’t have all the answers. I haven’t sat and thought about it in too much depth, though maybe I should put my feet up and do so.

@LanfearShadowflame
Again, one big difference between the two games is the trading post. Without a trading post, then a game must have farmable good drops. With a world wide trading post, it gets more difficult. Farmable good drops quickly become only farmable drops as every person in the world who farms the item can put it up for sale, and the price drops so it’s no longer good.

If Guild Wars 1 had a trading post, how long do you think your good drops, that you so fondly remember, would have been good there if you could have bought them for one or two plat? There would have been a ton of Totem axes and Mallyx bows for sale (for example) and they would be a dime a dozen.Those things you were vendoring, I don’t remember them as worth all that much, but maybe my memory is faulty here. It’s been a few years now, unless you are talking about something other than unique green items?

Just a flesh wound.3589:

@Lansfearshadowflame
Again, one big difference between the two games is the trading post. Without a trading post, then a game must have farmable good drops. With a world wide trading post, it gets more difficult. Farmable good drops quickly become only farmable drops as every person in the world who farms the item can put it up for sale, and the price drops so it’s no longer good.

I’d say WoW seems to do fine, but again you’re factoring in the gear treadmill there.

Yes, the trading post does factor in, but it is not the be all end all. Perhaps the issue isn’t so much frequency of a specific drop, but more the limited options on what is “good,” “desirable,” or otherwise “worth selling.”

Still, obviously Anet feels there is a bit of an issue with farmability of at least certain items (like charged lodestones) since they are bringing in the map specific bonus system with the expansion. (Which also serves the additional purposes of drawing people back to those maps)

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If Guild Wars 1 had a trading post, how long do you think your good drops, that you so fondly remember, would have been good there if you could have bought them for one or two plat? There would have been a ton of Totem axes and Mallyx bows for sale (for example) and they would be a dime a dozen.

Not a good example to use, especially if you spent any significant time in LA or Kamadan. There were a kitten ton of totem axes for sale (I know, I sold them) and they were dirt cheap. I couldn’t give the kitten things away anymore. Actually, I think I still have 3 or 4 sitting on someone somewhere lol.

As for Mallyx bows, there were plenty of armbraces for sale at any given time I was around, and yeah they moved pretty well. They got as low as like 100k and a couple ecto the last time I checked, which was a steal for those. Those only really became as desirable as they did because of HoM. Same with the destroyer weapons. There were a few skins that people “really liked” (like the torment shield), but for the most part they weren’t heavily sought after until later on.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Those things you were vendoring, I don’t remember them as worth all that much, but maybe my memory is faulty here. It’s been a few years now, unless you are talking about something other than unique green items?

No, mainly purples and golds. I usually got enough loot that I would drop whites and only hang onto colored items. Especially when I went out farming.

I wish I still had the screen cap of the Falls run on my necro. I went out after totem axes, and cleared the map for the hell of it. I gathered all of the assorted loot into piles and took a screen cap of what I kept vs what I left on the ground. Unfortunately that screenie, along with so much else, was lost when my hdd bit the dust a while back.

I didn’t really farm any other greens than totems. I never had much luck with them. I remember trying for Hahan’s Oath for days, because I wanted it for my Canthan monk. Oh the frustration….

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

I rarely grind and I dislike grinding. I have never fealt forced to grind in this game to enjoy every part of it, even all fractals levels can be enjoyed without grinding. Some people grind becouse they want stuff now now now now now but most stuff you can get by just playing every part of the game and some day you got what you want,

Yes, some day you will get what you want. Ironically, it will take much, much longer than what it would take for one of those games that “suck your life” to give you everything you want and more.

And i really mean it. I used to raid in WOW, and it would take me less than a month to get a full epic set from a raid, and i would get it actually playing the raid.

In GW2? i had to grind for gold to pay for the infusions that would allow me to play fractal 50, and i was completely gated out of fractal 50 while not having the gear to beat it. Wow doesn’t gate you out of the raid, and you can absolutely beat the current content wearing the gear from the previous content.

And regarding the legendaries, it would take like 2 months of normal play for a raider to get the legendary, which was really legendary, as you couldn’t buy it off the tp, and it required you to complete some really hard quests and the help of a team of 10 people. Here? i’ve been playing for 3 years and the only reason i am any closer to getting one, is because i have farmed more in the past 5 months than in 3 years playing WOW.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

@Lansfearshadowflame
Again, one big difference between the two games is the trading post. Without a trading post, then a game must have farmable good drops. With a world wide trading post, it gets more difficult. Farmable good drops quickly become only farmable drops as every person in the world who farms the item can put it up for sale, and the price drops so it’s no longer good.

I’d say WoW seems to do fine, but again you’re factoring in the gear treadmill there.

Yes, the trading post does factor in, but it is not the be all end all. Perhaps the issue isn’t so much frequency of a specific drop, but more the limited options on what is “good,” “desirable,” or otherwise “worth selling.”

Still, obviously Anet feels there is a bit of an issue with farmability of at least certain items (like charged lodestones) since they are bringing in the map specific bonus system with the expansion. (Which also serves the additional purposes of drawing people back to those maps)

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If Guild Wars 1 had a trading post, how long do you think your good drops, that you so fondly remember, would have been good there if you could have bought them for one or two plat? There would have been a ton of Totem axes and Mallyx bows for sale (for example) and they would be a dime a dozen.

Not a good example to use, especially if you spent any significant time in LA or Kamadan. There were a kitten ton of totem axes for sale (I know, I sold them) and they were dirt cheap. I couldn’t give the kitten things away anymore. Actually, I think I still have 3 or 4 sitting on someone somewhere lol.

As for Mallyx bows, there were plenty of armbraces for sale at any given time I was around, and yeah they moved pretty well. They got as low as like 100k and a couple ecto the last time I checked, which was a steal for those. Those only really became as desirable as they did because of HoM. Same with the destroyer weapons. There were a few skins that people “really liked” (like the torment shield), but for the most part they weren’t heavily sought after until later on.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Those things you were vendoring, I don’t remember them as worth all that much, but maybe my memory is faulty here. It’s been a few years now, unless you are talking about something other than unique green items?

No, mainly purples and golds. I usually got enough loot that I would drop whites and only hang onto colored items. Especially when I went out farming.

I wish I still had the screen cap of the Falls run on my necro. I went out after totem axes, and cleared the map for the hell of it. I gathered all of the assorted loot into piles and took a screen cap of what I kept vs what I left on the ground. Unfortunately that screenie, along with so much else, was lost when my hdd bit the dust a while back.

I didn’t really farm any other greens than totems. I never had much luck with them. I remember trying for Hahan’s Oath for days, because I wanted it for my Canthan monk. Oh the frustration….

Yeah. When I noticed the totem axe prices they were 5k. When I got one I wanted to sell later, no one wanted it. /sigh.

Maybe for this game ANet should push out more ingame skins/minis in different areas that need to be farmed. I’m not sure how it should be done, as again the trading post is a factor, unless maybe they use a token system (geodes/bandit crests) and an NPC that sells the items. Of course, there is then the problem of keeping all these tokens in storage or having an ever expanding currency panel but maybe that’s how they can have farmable good drops.

It was used to market the game. It is still being used to market the game.

If it only represented intentions that did not survive the realities of going live then it should no longer be used to promote the game on the official site in my opinion. If GW2 is ever going to get past the manifesto it should be removed from current marketing use.

People complain about players continuing to bring up the manifesto but Anet has never stopped using it.

Yup, seriously, go through the entirety of those links before commenting. It has nothing to do with an intent to avoid grinding.

That said, I feel they have been slinking further and further away from those ideals since launch – and have been fast approaching the realm of “every other mmo”.

I like the comment about bosses that respawn every 10 minutes and don’t care that you’ve killed them. They’ve been replaced with towns which are re-sieged every 10 minutes and don’t care that you saved them – or in the case of silverwastes, every 5 minutes.

One piece I will purposefully pull out of context is:
“We’re not going to rest on our laurels now. "

I’m sitting on over 250 laurels from repetitive daily grinding. If not sit, what should I be doing? Tap dance?

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Maybe for this game ANet should push out more ingame skins/minis in different areas that need to be farmed. I’m not sure how it should be done, as again the trading post is a factor, unless maybe they use a token system (geodes/bandit crests) and an NPC that sells the items. Of course, there is then the problem of keeping all these tokens in storage or having an ever expanding currency panel but maybe that’s how they can have farmable good drops.

Maybe. Could be a lot of things. I’m not certain how I feel about yet another token system. Maybe if it were something like the system for Armbraces, which the assorted gems had acceptable (and determinable) drop rates.

The only thing I am going to hold Anet up for is the ‘anti Holy-Trinity’ approach since day 1 of GW2. Cause THAT is what makes me enjoy this game the most.

All of the other failed promises are just that, failed PR marketing that in the end those PR sponsors had no control over the road map that GW2 would take over its current 3 year journey.

The fact is, you do not need to grind, prepare, and plan hours and hours and hours before your ‘actually’ paying the game. Most of the ‘high end’ content can be done before level 80 and in ‘level appropriate’ Greens. (Ill Cite Tequatl for this one, level 66)

You can just jump in, hit up LFG and be off in any number of available instances for your level with in 1-3 mins of login. No planning/prep work there

You can watch your clock on your Phone and log in 20-15mins before a BIG world boss (Namely Teq) take up whatever role you want (Zerg, Defense, Turrent) and then have your small % at a free easy Acended weapon drop. Minimal Planning there. Same with the boss train, just gotta have rain meter or some 3rd party timer so you know ‘whats up’.

..countless other options as well. None of them require any serious investment to ‘progress’ to the goal.

The only real exception is FoTM level 20+ IMHO. 1-10 can be done with baseline Exotic gear and/or proper Rares with the correct Runes/sigils. FoM 11-20 requires exotics IMHO, and 20+ requires 10AR (EASILY obtainable BY the time your at FOTM 15)

GW2 is the KING of casual for MMOs.

Hi guys. I really want to thank those who came here and constructively commentented about what I wrote. To those who think I want to quit the game or I am"attacking" Anet no, I am not. I love the game but the truth is I am displeased with some ideals forgotten by Anet about this game and it’s current heading, and yes, that may be a influence of GW1, but that doesn’t mean I want to quit and go back to it (although Gw1 is still a very good game).
For those who came here and say this topic is brought every few weeks or months, I am truly sorry to bother as I am not that active in the forums and I didn’t know the existence of the topic but, if you’re so tired of it, why did you open the thread in the first place?
I want to thank you again and please let me know more about you’re ideas.

Stroush.6972:

For those who came here and say this topic is brought every few weeks or months, I am truly sorry to bother as I am not that active in the forums and I didn’t know the existence of the topic but, if you’re so tired of it, why did you open the thread in the first place?

It seems as if their concern is not that they have to read this topic again (because they do not). Rather it seems that they want to prevent others from being able to read it.

Ashen.2907:

It was used to market the game. It is still being used to market the game.

If it only represented intentions that did not survive the realities of going live then it should no longer be used to promote the game on the official site in my opinion. If GW2 is ever going to get past the manifesto it should be removed from current marketing use.

People complain about players continuing to bring up the manifesto but Anet has never stopped using it.

In what way is it specifically being used to market the game? As a whole, or specific parts that happen to exist within it are also still be used as selling points? Are those specific points inaccurate? In what way?

I really don’t think ANet is going around saying, “Hey, are you looking for an MMO? Well here is a three year old list of dreams we had in how we wanted our game to be developed three plus years ago. You should get the game this thing references, if not 100% accurately.”

That is all it ever was. It’s not gospel and anyone who thought it was is naive. It was a list of dreams they hoped they could pull off. No list of that nature is infallible, nor will it ever be entirely realized. Three years later we really need to let it go.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Three years later we really need to let it go.

Agreed.

But I don’t think that asking players to let go while Anet continues to use it is the way to go..

I really do think that the manifesto should be removed in order to facilitate the, “let it go,” process as a whole.

Ashen.2907:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Three years later we really need to let it go.

Agreed.

But I don’t think that asking players to let go while Anet continues to use it is the way to go..

I really do think that the manifesto should be removed in order to facilitate the, “let it go,” process as a whole.

Where is it displayed? Which section specifically? I don’t think I’ve ever seen it in the flesh, as it were.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Ashen.2907:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Three years later we really need to let it go.

Agreed.

But I don’t think that asking players to let go while Anet continues to use it is the way to go..

I really do think that the manifesto should be removed in order to facilitate the, “let it go,” process as a whole.

Where is it displayed? Which section specifically? I don’t think I’ve ever seen it in the flesh, as it were.

At the very bottom of the Videos page (which you get to by going to Media at the top of the site), which displays every official video released by Anet. https://www.guildwars2.com/en/media/videos/

Ashen.2907:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Three years later we really need to let it go.

Agreed.

But I don’t think that asking players to let go while Anet continues to use it is the way to go..

I really do think that the manifesto should be removed in order to facilitate the, “let it go,” process as a whole.

I don’t think it would be good to remove it from an archive of all the videos the game has made. That itself would look like they are ashamed or trying to hide something by removing a historical piece of information.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Ashen.2907:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Three years later we really need to let it go.

Agreed.

But I don’t think that asking players to let go while Anet continues to use it is the way to go..

I really do think that the manifesto should be removed in order to facilitate the, “let it go,” process as a whole.

I don’t think it would be good to remove it from an archive of all the videos the game has made. That itself would look like they are ashamed or trying to hide something by removing a historical piece of information.

Whatever happened to the video clarifying what they meant in the manifesto video? It seems like that would be awfully important to keep around alongside the manifesto video.

Yeah, that’s not there for marketing purposes, it’s there because that’s just where they put their videos and it’s a video they made. When it comes before the teaser trailer for the game it really can’t be taken to mean anything.

Vayne.8563:

A manifesto is a statement of intent, not a guarantee of delivery.

At this point we’re reviving a dead horse simply to beat it more but the manifesto has not been removed in favor of another declaration that’s more suited to the current state of the game. By keeping the manifesto up Anet is saying the values and directions stated are still valid. Of course we know this is a contradiction, but there you have it.

So long as that manifesto is up and hasn’t been replaced or supplanted we have to assume Anet still holds true to it.

Vix.6730:

Vayne.8563:

A manifesto is a statement of intent, not a guarantee of delivery.

At this point we’re reviving a dead horse simply to beat it more but the manifesto has not been removed in favor of another declaration that’s more suited to the current state of the game. By keeping the manifesto up Anet is saying the values and directions stated are still valid. Of course we know this is a contradiction, but there you have it.

So long as that manifesto is up and hasn’t been replaced or supplanted we have to assume Anet still holds true to it.

Why in the world should they make a statement of intent on a game that’s already been released?

At this point the manifesto is a historical “document.” The game doesn’t need another manifesto or videos saying what the game already is unless they plan to make large changes to the direction of how the game will play and wish to tell us that way.

I only got to know Guild Wars 2 after Diablo 3 screwed the kittens up. I was looking for a game and AngryJoe’s marketing video got me hooked. So, I bought it and played. 3000+ hours since across 13 characters.

Didn’t know about this Manifesto or whatever it was. I just played. And it was fun. Was. But over the years, ANET slowly changed the game to “Oh great, I forgot my daily yesterday, today I must do it.” kinda way.

Nope, ANET didn’t broke any promises with the manifesto. It actually delivered most of it at the beginning, but now ANET totally thrown that out with the grind and more grind.

I still play GW2 because it is currently the only game that is still fun to play. Even with the grind, I find it fun to get new stuff. Only recently like a few months ago, I completed Mawdrey and Mawdrey II. It was fun. Again, was. If the stupid time-gated crafting wasn’t there, it would be a perfect scavenger hunt to do again and again and again. I wanted to make a second Mawdrey, but that stupid time-gated crafting is just padding the time and annoying. ANET could have change the recipe to use MORE materials. Like making people go chop down more cypress sapling for the Foxfire clusters. From needing 114 to 228 and make it account bound so that people don’t profit off it at the TP. and remove the stupid timegate.

RoseofGilead.8907:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Ashen.2907:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Three years later we really need to let it go.

Agreed.

But I don’t think that asking players to let go while Anet continues to use it is the way to go..

I really do think that the manifesto should be removed in order to facilitate the, “let it go,” process as a whole.

Where is it displayed? Which section specifically? I don’t think I’ve ever seen it in the flesh, as it were.

At the very bottom of the Videos page (which you get to by going to Media at the top of the site), which displays every official video released by Anet. https://www.guildwars2.com/en/media/videos/

OMG .. a video .. really ? Then they should also have to remove all videos of the
old LA, and all images from LA have to been deleted from the whole internet
and whatever else has changed.

Really .. those collections of videos and images after some years for me is just
historical stuff and not something that i consider as active marketing.

We also need to remove all false promises that politicans have ever made then
from the internet and burn all books maybe.

When I read or watch the GW2 Manifesto, I see vague verbiage which was designed to sell the game. I don’t see a blueprint or a design plan. It’s a preview of a few ideas that are behind the game. Did they all pan out perfectly? No. Environmental weapons are talked about in the blog version, but they’ve been underwhelming since day 1. So what?

As to the fun v. grind issue, which inevitably rises to the top of the list of complaints about GW2. Read the Is it fun? blog by Colin Johanson.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success/

It seems ANet wanted to produce fun gameplay. Whether they succeeded or not is as subjective as fun itself. I’d guess they think so.

What they ran into, though, was a significant player demographic that demanded goals to keep them playing that content for days/weeks/months/years at the volume of play typical to many MMO’s. Fun was either insufficient in itself to keep them playing, or — like many video games — fun diminished the more they played the same thing.

There were just not enough long-term goals in the game at first. So, Anet has been throwing LT goals in since. Since these are long-term goals, they take time in game. Some players, meanwhile, don’t want deferred gratification, they want gratification. Hence the issue — which is a discrepancy between what different player demographics want.

So, the issue then should be are those LT goals optional. For the most part, yes, they are. Even Ascended is not required in the same way higher stats are required in other MMO’s. While I dislike and think Ascended was implemented poorly, I’d guess Anet thinks it accomplished their aims.

The problems, then, are twofold:

1. Fast gratification players want the goals put in for the deferred gratification players.
2. New goals that fast gratification players can pursue are not put into the game fast enough to keep them busy.

Every MMO has problems introducing new content and goals fast enough to keep up with player demand. Every. Single. One. Imo, the ANet design braintrust failed to anticipate the numbers and vehemence of those who care less about fun than they care about filling time.

Well, the same things get brought up again and again. Anet hurt themselves heavily content-wise by making the S1 events one and done. That’s a ton of playable hours that they still have on the back burner to somehow, some way re-implement someday, and to players looking at this game with fresh eyes, this doesn’t look like something that’s been on the market for years. S2 isn’t open world, immersive content like what players do when they first join the game. It’s a lot of instanced, single-player or small party action aside from the grind of SW/Drytop.

The China launch was an abysmal failure because that’s a market that is used to the long grind, and everything this game has to offer PvE-wise can be eaten through in a very short period of time. Since there is no gear treadmill, no reason to remain relative in terms of armor and weapons, a big part of the reason to stick around outside of the initial story is gone. That may be a cliché, but it gives players reason to continue playing once the initial story is over.

What’s unfortunate in this game is that the treadmill is very limited, and focused on whatever can be done for the most gold in the shortest period of time. That comes down to grinding SW/Drytop, grinding dungeons, or grinding mobs if you have high MF. Again, even the devs say this was never the original intent with parts of this game, and it is one of the issues being addressed with the new Legendary system and map rewards. The game’s designers themselves see that things as they are just aren’t enjoyable, and it certainly will be nice for level 80 players to go back to low level areas while scaled down and challenge the Spider Queen, Troll, etc, with players of all other levels in order to get what they’re needing to craft or purchase what they’re wanting.

The bottom line is that manifesto, brainstorm, hodgepodge of ideas, or otherwise, the original ideas presented for this game would make for a lot more longevity than it sits at current. The coming changes will also make for a lot more longevity and are much more in line with the seeming intent of the devs as well.

Prototypemind.4026:

What’s unfortunate in this game is that the treadmill is very limited, and focused on whatever can be done for the most gold in the shortest period of time. That comes down to grinding SW/Drytop, grinding dungeons, or grinding mobs if you have high MF. Again, even the devs say this was never the original intent with parts of this game, and it is one of the issues being addressed with the new Legendary system and map rewards. The game’s designers themselves see that things as they are just aren’t enjoyable, and it certainly will be nice for level 80 players to go back to low level areas while scaled down and challenge the Spider Queen, Troll, etc, with players of all other levels in order to get what they’re needing to craft or purchase what they’re wanting.

The devs said…yeah they also said that karma would be the global currency, but abandoned it. The pre-cursor issues hasn’t been enjoyable for nearly 3 years, there was one good week that was exploited before it was nerfed into this RNG hell. They said they would fix it and we are still waiting, 3 year lag time on that is incredibly disheartening. The devs said that it was a bad decision to release ascended with only one means of getting it, so they released ascended amulets where the only way of getting it for most players was laurels. Then of course they release Ascended weapons and armor with only realistic way of getting them being crafting. What they say and what they do are always two different things.

The take away is that with anything the devs say you need to expect one of three things: 1. They are giving lip service 2. They are being truthful but will implement it in a way that doesn’t address the issue or makes it worse 3. You can expect it in 3-6 years during which time they can’t talk about it.