Guild Wars 2

People forget how the business model of this MMO does not involve tying the players into paying a subscription for years and years.
They are meant to play a (quite large) number of features and have fun and then:

- choose to stay and go ahead with an open ended system (those who play EvE know about sandbox and how YOU make your destiny not the developer).

- quit and eventually buy the next expansion and have another 100 or so hours of fun. Like a single player game but multiplayer and with a double lifetime for the same money.

That’s it.

If you don’t like the grind you can PvP with insta-80 and ZERO grind at all.
If you don’t like the grind you can buy crafted gear that is competitive vs the top of the top.
If you don’t like the grind you can do events and slowly build up Karma. “Slowly” as in, I got 125k karma by playing in level 80 areas for 2 weeks. It means 2 months tops even as super casual and you can have a legendary. I play a tank specced elementalist so don’t come tell me I rolled a quick grind class.

Yes, it’d have been awesome if they implemented more PvE stuff, “raids” or whatever but who played other PvP games knows they tend to have 5-6 men instances only (Warhammer dropped the “raid” content after the first expansion) and those games are subs based, that is they want you to keep playing. GW2 does not need you keep playing.

“Farming fast”, “grinding”, “buying gold to get first” has no sense in GW2 beyond some personal ego satisfaction. You have just to chip in the game when you want and you’ll eventually get everywhere, for no sub.

Different business model and for people who can set their own timing and objectives. The others are supported up to a point, but I suppose they are too brainwashed into perma-grind mode “for reward” exactly by their old MMO, a measure to make them dependent on it and returning to it.

My best suggestion to everybody is to play EvE Online for 2-3 months, you’ll suddenly understand how GW2 works and how it’s TP works.

The original post states it’s a grind, the above statement is how he arrived at that conclusion. It’s relevant because he has to have some basis to arrive at that conclusion otherwise hes making statements about a game he has no experience playing.

How is he supposed to claim there is a grind and then you say all his opinions arent relavent to the claims.

You can’t say X is a grind and when asked why you go, well I actually have no idea how I arrived at that opinion.

I just hope ANet gives everyone in this thread who posted multiple times a reward for their forum grind.

I’m sorry, I thought the “definition” of grinding was pretty well known.

So tell me, in what universe do you live in that repeating one of 3 options collectively up to 46 times is not a grind?

Gauradan.8361:

Swagman.9013:

And all I was pointing out is that there is nothing in the game that requires you to get that armor, so your grind is self induced. You will get that armor eventually if you just play the game normally which is 100% possible as you are now. The only reason you view it as a grind is because you want it now.

If I had done that, I would probably have gotten bored before the first piece. Repetition without reward becomes dull.And there is no way anyone could possibly make an MMO , or even a game, that is not repetitive.

THEN WHAT WIZARD MAGIC WERE YOU EXPECTING ANET TO COME UP WITH TO MAKE A 0 GRIND MMO THAT’S CAPTIVATING FOR YEARS, AND WHY ARE YOU UPSET WHEN YOU FOUND OUT IT HAS A GRIND.

Zen.1740:

Arazel.4185:

I’ve done more than half of the hearts in the game and there are no quests like you described. Nothing tells you to go kill X of Y. In fact there is only one task I remember where I had to kill rats

‘Help Farmer John kill Centaurs’
‘Centaurs killed: 40%’

It’s another way of saying 4/10.

0/10.

Except that the number changes on the fly and readjusts, positively or negatively, according to participation.

And I just wanted to add in that the game wasn’t “ready” when released. It was actually far from it. I don’t know if that was in the manifesto (I don’t think it was), but “when it’s ready”, has been the default mantra for the past two years.

Swagman.9013:

THEN WHAT WIZARD MAGIC WERE YOU EXPECTING ANET TO COME UP WITH TO MAKE A 0 GRIND MMO THAT’S CAPTIVATING FOR YEARS, AND WHY ARE YOU UPSET WHEN YOU FOUND OUT IT HAS A GRIND.

Guild Wars 1. That is all. Also Caps Lock doesn’t get your point across, logic does.

Disclaimer: Great game, beautiful graphics, blah blah…

I think they delivered on a lot of the general ideas in the manifesto but in the end, it’s really not a whole heck of a lot different from wow or swtor.

So there’s no mob tagging or gathering node tagging. Good thing because everyone needs that stuff to grind with.

So there’s no trinity. I’m still seeing plenty of LFG in chat. I couldn’t get ONE person to join my group of 4 friends for AC story after spamming chat for 20 minutes. ONE PERSON even though there’s no need for a tank or healer? How does that even happen?

They made DEs out to be WORLD CHANGING and amazing events that would drive the entire eco-system. Turns out they’re just random quests that pop up with almost no story and aren’t much more than a zerg, with little to no danger of dying as long as you stay at range. Plus, the same ones come up over and over if you’re in the same zone for a while.

The class structure isn’t groundbreaking at all and you essentially find a setup you like the most and stick with it.

There isn’t even another faction to try out to see the other side of a story or different races classes.

In general the game seems pretty limited out of the gate. If it wasn’t for the beautiful environments to explore and somewhat engaging combat, there would be very little going for it.

All this and I haven’t even gotten to the level cap yet. I am still kind of enjoying the game but mostly because i have a lot of RL friends playing it. If I was solo, I probably wouldn’t make it to the cap.

…….. yawn

is this like “its a good game vs its a bad game” forum ?

i dont believe in that anymore since i know someone who actually managed to play 1000h in D3.

seriously.

Lance Coolee.9480:

I’m sorry, I thought the “definition” of grinding was pretty well known.

So tell me, in what universe do you live in that repeating one of 3 options collectively up to 46 times is not a grind?

Nobody has ever said grinding doesn’t exist in gw2. It’s not required. I say this because I know from firsthand experience.

I leveled my warrior as GS signet build, I knew this wasn’t good in groups. When I decided to do explorable dungeons end game content I bought a set of rare level 80 armor from the TP for about 2g. I bought 3 peices of knights and 3 peices of Valkyrie. I then respected to a dungeon friendly spec.

So for around 2 gold, and from spending 5 minutes on the TP I was ready for all end game content

Which I then proceeded to kill zhaitan and do explorables till I got my dungeon exotics, all while wearing purchased level 80 rares.

Gauradan.8361:

Swagman.9013:

THEN WHAT WIZARD MAGIC WERE YOU EXPECTING ANET TO COME UP WITH TO MAKE A 0 GRIND MMO THAT’S CAPTIVATING FOR YEARS, AND WHY ARE YOU UPSET WHEN YOU FOUND OUT IT HAS A GRIND.

Guild Wars 1. That is all. Also Caps Lock doesn’t get your point across, logic does.

So wait, if we can’t achieve infinitely varying content, the only other viable solution is to implement incredibly redundant content? Oh that must’ve been the innovation they were talking about.

So there’s no middle ground here, like say, giving players the immediate opportunity to buy a dungeon skin after completing the story line, then setting them up with an epic quest path (that involves them entering / completing each of the explorable modes) that allows them to take their story armor and craft a cooler looking exotic set? Heck! why not sprinkle in some ties to the open world and you’ve got yourself some variety!

That’s just a drop of a dime suggestion, but don’t tell me that the creative team responsible for composing such a beautiful looking world just completely brainfarted on the PvE content at 80.

Swagman.9013:

Nobody has ever said grinding doesn’t exist in gw2. It’s not required. I say this because I know from firsthand experience.

I leveled my warrior as GS signet build, I knew this wasn’t good in groups. When I decided to do explorable dungeons end game content I bought a set of rare level 80 armor from the TP for about 2g. I bought 3 peices of knights and 3 peices of Valkyrie. I then respected to a dungeon friendly spec.

So for around 2 gold, and from spending 5 minutes on the TP I was ready for all end game content

Which I then proceeded to kill zhaitan and do explorables till I got my dungeon exotics, all while wearing purchased level 80 rares.

The next trick is to get 4 other people that did the same.

Skorpio.3571:

The class structure isn’t groundbreaking at all and you essentially find a setup you like the most and stick with it.

I was so disappointed w/ this too. I was really hoping there would have been better support for managing “loadouts” (sets of skills / gear) out of combat so that I could quickly adapt to the situation in front of me.

Turns out that none of the situations really required the level of depth though, so I for the most part just stick to my basic setup and rarely change it after.

Lance Coolee.9480:

So wait, if we can’t achieve infinitely varying content, the only other viable solution is to implement incredibly redundant content? Oh that must’ve been the innovation they were talking about.

So there’s no middle ground here, like say, giving players the immediate opportunity to buy a dungeon skin after completing the story line, then setting them up with an epic quest path (that involves them entering / completing each of the explorable modes) that allows them to take their story armor and craft a cooler looking exotic set? Heck! why not sprinkle in some ties to the open world and you’ve got yourself some variety!

That’s just a drop of a dime suggestion, but don’t tell me that the creative team responsible for composing such a beautiful looking world just completely brainfarted on the PvE content at 80.

I’m sorry, are you referring to Guild Wars 1 in your post? Because, as far as I’m concerned, that game was able to hold my attention for some 8 months as an everyday activity and then, even if I took breaks, I’d still come back for a couple of weeks and play it some more. I hardly doubt this will be the case with Guild Wars 2, unless they change some parts of the game drastically (starting with dungeons).

So guild wars 1 had 0 grind completely fun replayable content with enough rewards to keep players going for years, all within 1 month of release.

Well I don’t get why you would ever play any other game ever again.

Swagman.9013:

Nobody has ever said grinding doesn’t exist in gw2. It’s not required.

Nobody argued that it was / wasn’t. It was merely stated that the game DESIGNERS said they didn’t believe in it, led us to believe it wouldn’t exist, then completely reversed that philosophy on us, by injecting it in all corners of the game.

Gauradan.8361:

I’m sorry, are you referring to Guild Wars 1 in your post?

Negative, I just hit the “quote” button on ur reply. I was replying to mister all-caps’ post.

Swagman.9013:

So guild wars 1 had 0 grind completely fun replayable content with enough rewards to keep players going for years, all within 1 month of release.

Well I don’t get why you would ever play any other game ever again.

…. unless it was from the same company and development staff that created that one and claimed to be better, maybe?

Swagman.9013:

So guild wars 1 had 0 grind completely fun replayable content with enough rewards to keep players going for years, all within 1 month of release.

Well I don’t get why you would ever play any other game ever again.

I never played at release, so I couldn’t tell you that. However, the game had something to it that set it apart. In Guild Wars 2 that’s not the case; we’ve got stupid gold sinks, we’ve got armor grinds; we’ve seen this before, we’ve been here before. Why would we start anew?

Note: I have never been one of those hardcore players doing the toughest things in the game. If I had been, the game could have probably held my attention even more.

Gauradan.8361:

Swagman.9013:

Nobody has ever said grinding doesn’t exist in gw2. It’s not required. I say this because I know from firsthand experience.

I leveled my warrior as GS signet build, I knew this wasn’t good in groups. When I decided to do explorable dungeons end game content I bought a set of rare level 80 armor from the TP for about 2g. I bought 3 peices of knights and 3 peices of Valkyrie. I then respected to a dungeon friendly spec.

So for around 2 gold, and from spending 5 minutes on the TP I was ready for all end game content

Which I then proceeded to kill zhaitan and do explorables till I got my dungeon exotics, all while wearing purchased level 80 rares.

The next trick is to get 4 other people that did the same.

If I can do it anyone can do it. There’s no trick to it

Swagman.9013:

If I can do it anyone can do it. There’s no trick to it

Let me rephrase then: The next trick is to get other 4 people that did it and are willing to do dungeons.

they delivered everything in the manifesto, but unfortunately encountered a lot of problems when the system became stressed by hundreds of players. DE scaling being one of those issues for example. im very happy with ANet’s achievements.

Gauradan.8361:

Swagman.9013:

If I can do it anyone can do it. There’s no trick to it

Let me rephrase then: The next trick is to get other 4 people that did it and are willing to do dungeons.

dungeons are amazing.

Gauradan.8361:

Swagman.9013:

So guild wars 1 had 0 grind completely fun replayable content with enough rewards to keep players going for years, all within 1 month of release.

Well I don’t get why you would ever play any other game ever again.

I never played at release, so I couldn’t tell you that. However, the game had something to it that set it apart. In Guild Wars 2 that’s not the case; we’ve got stupid gold sinks, we’ve got armor grinds; we’ve seen this before, we’ve been here before. Why would we start anew?

Note: I have never been one of those hardcore players doing the toughest things in the game. If I had been, the game could have probably held my attention even more.

Well maybe that’s your problem, I never played gw1 so I don’t know if it was all milk and honey at release but if you came into it late you came into a kitten load of content from a fresh perspective. Let’s give these guys some time.

nerva.7940:

they delivered everything in the manifesto

Opinion noted.

I would, however like to see you’re proof, because as a consumer I do feel a little duped.

nerva.7940:

dungeons are amazing.

I just love this kind of posts. No arguments, no previous build-up, nothing to indicate that it’s a personal opinion. Alright, you’ve convinced me. Dungeons are amazing.

Windklinge.4076:

i made a post in suggestion forums considering legendarys and the “grind” faktor in it. while i think to a certain degree you need some sort of “grind” it should be the player decides which he wants to do. feel free to comment there^^

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/please-give-more-OPTIONS-to-craft-a-legendary/first#post262609

These are the kind of suggestions that add depth to the game. They’re also the kind of suggestions that REQUIRE a complete rework of how “endgame” content is imagined.

Alright, where to start…

Personal Story I agree that it’s somewhat disappointing that the story converged into a singular narrative, especially since it started out so diverse. However, I don’t mind Trahearne’s part in it so much. It sort of felt like a partnership to me. Yes, he was in charge, but he relied on your help far too much for you to be just a lackey.

What I dislike most of all is, like you said, it didn’t really branch. There were choices, which changed the missions somewhat, but there were no consequences to your choices. Everything played out in a straight direction, leading you where the designers wanted you to be, and not so much where you’d want to be.

Grinding This is a tough cookie. First off, there is no problem with ANet placing long term goals in the game. In fact, I wish there were more far of goals than just the legendary weapons.
However, the way to get there is not so great. To get karma and gold, you feel inclined to do high level events, since low level events reward high level characters with so little quantities of gold and karma that the time spent doesn’t feel worth it.
Tokens are another story, but I think ANet sees the issue and they’re working towards a solution.

I also think the game would benefit from more items that require assembly like legendary weapons. This brings me to my other point, long and short term goals. Something I enjoy immensely are the daily and monthly achievements. It feels like you’re working towards something, but the rewards just feel so small.

Perhaps the game would benefit from more like-minded tasks. Maybe weekly achievements can also be added to the list. But more substantially, perhaps more tasks can be added. For instance, let’s say a few random tasks are chosen, like say, killing a certain amount of enemies, and selling a certain amount of goods, and accumulating an amount of karma. Varied goals, and then completing these goals will grant a reward, then reset, and randomize new goals. These can funnel into a larger achievement, which can then reward you with collectors items.

I don’t know, this game feels like it has potential to reward you for doing whatever you want, but having specified goals also feels rewarding on top of that.

Orr This has been up for debate for a while now, and overall the opinion stands that Orr isn’t quite the satisfactory endgame that everyone wanted. I just think Orr can do with a bit of variety and scope. It just doesn’t feel all that epic.

Perhaps, rather than having large clumps of enemies to create an illusion of threat, the zones need actual large scale threats, other than the temples. For instance, why not add some sort of corruption mechanic to the zone. Let’s say, there’s an area where blue corruption spreads in an area, this causes mage Orrians to appear and funnel corruptive energy into large orbs. This causes undead constructs to rise and wreak havoc. To end the threat players need to deal with the constructs, kill the mages, and destroy the orbs. Or if red corruption spreads in an area, the enemies will go into frenzy, start mutating, and attacking settlements.

Perhaps the zone can do with some large scale battles, like artillery plowing through hordes, and major clashes where NPCs and undead fight in great number, while players get to arm battlements to quell the horde, or go into the fray to take on the hordes personally.

My favorite battle in the game is the Claw of Jormag. Blasting away at him, fighting his minion hordes, watching cannons blast him from the sky, sending him crashing into the landscape, then taking him down while chaos erupts all around. It felt epic. When I came to Orr and saw dragons in the sky, taking on airships, I thought “wow, this is going to mind-blowing”. It wasn’t really. There were a lot of undead dotting the landscape, a skirmish here and there, and now and again a small battle outside the temples. After a while in Orr I returned to Forstgorge, just because the zone feels better, and the scenery was more varied and exciting.

Orr just needs more variety, which changes the landscape a bit, and to throw you off the pattern that seems same old. There also needs to be more large scale things happening. Battles and enemies, threats that feel worthy. So far there are skirmishes here and there, while large clashes would do the zone so much good. You’ll also find a giant here and there, but having a bigger threat now and again, maybe not a dragaon (again) but perhaps a massive undead creation that pops up, and chucks projectiles from afar, then players come in, and kill it piece by piece.

GW2 has so much potential to grow. I’m really hoping it gets bigger and better. I’m just afraid it’ll rehash same old content.

Ignoring about 4 pages of kittening back and forth…(sadly, I just self-censored and typed in the actual word k-i-t-t-e-n-i-n-g instead of something more interesting)

OP. I agree with much of what you say about the manifesto . I make two points however:

1) Regarding story: You are mostly right in that the further you go, the more the storylines converge. It doesn’t hurt that Trahearne is probably universally reviled as a character. And I will admit to a degree of disappointment in that. However, looking at it practically…let’s just say they had 3 different ends, instead of the current “Trahearne saves the day”. Reconciling those ends within the game would be exceptionally difficult. Let’s say they add new storylines set after the events in Orr. These would get progressively harder to manage, and to control from a lore standpoint. can they create an expansion that says “So, Orr was saved..” and have players going “I chose to blow it up instead”? They chose to unite the storylines so that when a sequel story picks up (And I assume it will) all players will start from a common point. It’s just easier to manage.

That does NOT mean however that I think Anet delivered 100% accuracy on their statements regarding story. They did not. I as an individual player am less upset about it than the OP, but I do agree they did not deliver exactly what they promised. Close, but not quite.

2) Regarding Grind removal: This really is subjective, depending on your goals, your amount of play time, and where you draw the line between “playing and having fun” and “grinding”. Some people will not find GW2 a grind, because their play style and goals mean they come on for a bit, they do whatever, they log off. Those with heavy goals like Legendaries or unlocking every achieve…they will see GW as grindy.

Frankly, there are players out there that will scream “grind!” the moment they have to do the same task more than once. And others that will run the same dungeon 3000 times without batting at eye. It’s subjective.

From a personal standpoint (i.e. my own subjective opinion), GW2 has very little grind. I find levelling grind is near non-existant compared to other MMOs. Crafting has been streamlined to be much less aggravating or time consuming. Maybe of the annoying little things we “have” to do in order to enjoy playing in MMOs (inventory maintenance, gear upgrading, quest hub running, travel, etc) have been removed or made simpler, merging into the flow of gameplay so that you have to do them less often or not at all.

TL;DR: The game is far less grindy to me. There IS some grind…esp if you want legendaries. Whether you personally feel this violates Anet’s manifesto depends on where you draw your goal/grind definition lines.

I’ve noticed with gw2 that it is a battle of proficient gamers vs casual gamers… the proficient gamers went through everything easily, they don’t think any of the dungeons are challenging, and they feel like the game has very little content… yet a bunch of casuals who will hit that point in a few months are sitting here telling them they play incorrectly? Since when is being the most efficient in your rotations and completing tasks, playing incorrectly?

Sheen.8196:

I’ve noticed with gw2 that it is a battle of proficient gamers vs casual gamers… the proficient gamers went through everything easily, they don’t think any of the dungeons are challenging, and they feel like the game has very little content… yet a bunch of casuals who will hit that point in a few months are sitting here telling them they play incorrectly? Since when is being the most efficient in your rotations and completing tasks, playing incorrectly?

It’s not proficient vs. casual, it’s time played. The “proficient” just have 10 times the amount of hours put in.

Why do people always confuse casual with bad? Casual just as much means players that only log in for 1-2 hours a day or possibly even gasp skip a day!

PS- I agree with most of your other points in this thread.

I’m a casual ex-powergamer and I got bored at lvl 62.

Skorpio.3571:

Why do people always confuse casual with bad?

I don’t recall seeing that in this thread, but likewise the same can be said in reverse.

Why do people always confuse “non-casual” with bad? (neither is an opinion i share).

This is a great thread. The portion about grinding was certainly misrepresented in the manifesto. Basically, grinding is necessary to obtain what many point to as endgame material (armor skins, crafting, etc.). Grinding is absent from the game not because the game was designed to avoid it but because they have imposed blocks against performing it. In other words, the necessity of grinding was not removed, only the ability to do so (diminishing returns, etc.)

Skorpio.3571:

Sheen.8196:

I’ve noticed with gw2 that it is a battle of proficient gamers vs casual gamers… the proficient gamers went through everything easily, they don’t think any of the dungeons are challenging, and they feel like the game has very little content… yet a bunch of casuals who will hit that point in a few months are sitting here telling them they play incorrectly? Since when is being the most efficient in your rotations and completing tasks, playing incorrectly?

It’s not proficient vs. casual, it’s time played. The “proficient” just have 10 times the amount of hours put in.

Why do people always confuse casual with bad? Casual just as much means players that only log in for 1-2 hours a day or possibly even gasp skip a day!

PS- I agree with most of your other points in this thread.

Wrong… proficient gamers don’t necessarily have to be hardcore, whether they play a ton or a little, they still do everything more quickly and more efficiently.

It might take a proficient gamer an hour to do something a casual would do in 3 hours. I don’t mean casual as in play time, I mean casual as in attitude… the whole “I am going tokittenaround, not really know what i’m doing, and just hit my spells in a way that seems to make sense to me”.

These people consume content more slowly, and because of their careless attitude they often don’t play as much. (People that aren’t passionate about a hobby often would invest less time in such a hobby)

Lance Coolee.9480:

Skorpio.3571:

Why do people always confuse casual with bad?

I don’t recall seeing that in this thread, but likewise the same can be said in reverse.

Why do people always confuse “non-casual” with bad? (neither is an opinion i share).

Sorry. I added Sheen’s post for clarification. I read it as:

Proficient = Good players, fast and efficient
Casual = Taking too long to level cap, not efficient with rotations, bad at completing tasks and playing incorrectly

There are many 80s defending the game… My guild is full of 80s in full exotics who are still enjoying the game… And still playing every single day.

Please learn to not talk for anyone else but you on your posts. Thank you!

Am I casual just because I didn’t rush to 80? I do very well in pvp and pve with all my chars, I read a lot about them, their builds and try to maximize efficiency on my playstyle, it just happen that efficiency, to me is not, in any way, related to how fast I reach level 80.

So, it’s not about “proficients” vs casuals… It’s about opinions, only that. You have yours, I have mine.

Sheen.8196:

Skorpio.3571:

Sheen.8196:

I’ve noticed with gw2 that it is a battle of proficient gamers vs casual gamers… the proficient gamers went through everything easily, they don’t think any of the dungeons are challenging, and they feel like the game has very little content… yet a bunch of casuals who will hit that point in a few months are sitting here telling them they play incorrectly? Since when is being the most efficient in your rotations and completing tasks, playing incorrectly?

It’s not proficient vs. casual, it’s time played. The “proficient” just have 10 times the amount of hours put in.

Why do people always confuse casual with bad? Casual just as much means players that only log in for 1-2 hours a day or possibly even gasp skip a day!

PS- I agree with most of your other points in this thread.

Wrong… proficient gamers don’t necessarily have to be hardcore, whether they play a ton or a little, they still do everything more quickly and more efficiently.

It might take a proficient gamer an hour to do something a casual would do in 3 hours. I don’t mean casual as in play time, I mean casual as in attitude… the whole “I am going tokittenaround, not really know what i’m doing, and just hit my spells in a way that seems to make sense to me”.

These people consume content more slowly, and because of their careless attitude they often don’t play as much. (People that aren’t passionate about a hobby often would invest less time in such a hobby)

Sheen, your making statements that have some validity to them, but your offering them in a very derogatory way. I wouldn’t associate “casual” gameplay as “careless” gameplay.

Gauradan.8361:

Porky.5021:

There is no grind required. You can have the same abilities and stats as everyone else without grinding anything.

“We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2, no one enjoys that, no one finds it fun.”

Can I have the dungeon armor that I like without grinding? No.
Why are dungeons a grind? Because they’re not fun.
Why aren’t they fun? Because they’re poorly designed.
Why are they poorly designed? Because the difficulty is artificially created via huge health pools and huge damage on mobs, instead of clever mechanics.

Oh, so I can’t have that dungeon armor then? Nope.

You can’t just say that to people. ArenaNet need people to buy their expansions to keep the game going. How do you get people to buy expansions? By making the previous content entertaining.

Exactly what I said in my first post. You just want everything for no effort at all. Dungeon armor is more for looks, you don’t need it. They stated that there WILL be grind for certain AESTHETIC items, that will not give more power to the people who have them, but just look better. You don’t need that dungeon armor to enjoy the game, you can make it a challenge for yourself and get it, but no one forces you to. It’s forced grind I hate. You can get to lvl 80 fairly easy, easier than in most games.

Sheen.8196:

Skorpio.3571:

Sheen.8196:

I’ve noticed with gw2 that it is a battle of proficient gamers vs casual gamers… the proficient gamers went through everything easily, they don’t think any of the dungeons are challenging, and they feel like the game has very little content… yet a bunch of casuals who will hit that point in a few months are sitting here telling them they play incorrectly? Since when is being the most efficient in your rotations and completing tasks, playing incorrectly?

It’s not proficient vs. casual, it’s time played. The “proficient” just have 10 times the amount of hours put in.

Why do people always confuse casual with bad? Casual just as much means players that only log in for 1-2 hours a day or possibly even gasp skip a day!

PS- I agree with most of your other points in this thread.

Wrong… proficient gamers don’t necessarily have to be hardcore, whether they play a ton or a little, they still do everything more quickly and more efficiently.

It might take a proficient gamer an hour to do something a casual would do in 3 hours. I don’t mean casual as in play time, I mean casual as in attitude… the whole “I am going tokittenaround, not really know what i’m doing, and just hit my spells in a way that seems to make sense to me”.

These people consume content more slowly, and because of their careless attitude they often don’t play as much. (People that aren’t passionate about a hobby often would invest less time in such a hobby)

I still don’t understand why casual means idiot. That’s kind of how you describe it. To me a casual player is someone that doesn’t play the game like it’s another job and plays when they feel like or “casually”.

I’ve always considered myself a casual player even though I play most days for a couple hours and always read up on classes, rotations, etc.

To me, it would make more sense for you to say that GW2 is a battle between proficient players and bad players because that’s what you make casual out to be.

In my years of wow, the endless debate between hardcore and casual meant raiders vs. non-raiders. Over the years, that has changed to mean hardcore = good and casual = bad when in reality, it can very well just mean people who don’t raid or people who play less than 3 hours a day.

Anyway….semantics. /endthreadhijack :P

Fayel.7589:

They stated that there WILL be grind for certain AESTHETIC items

Show me where they said this.

Sheen.8196:

Skorpio.3571:

Sheen.8196:

I’ve noticed with gw2 that it is a battle of proficient gamers vs casual gamers… the proficient gamers went through everything easily, they don’t think any of the dungeons are challenging, and they feel like the game has very little content… yet a bunch of casuals who will hit that point in a few months are sitting here telling them they play incorrectly? Since when is being the most efficient in your rotations and completing tasks, playing incorrectly?

It’s not proficient vs. casual, it’s time played. The “proficient” just have 10 times the amount of hours put in.

Why do people always confuse casual with bad? Casual just as much means players that only log in for 1-2 hours a day or possibly even gasp skip a day!

PS- I agree with most of your other points in this thread.

Wrong… proficient gamers don’t necessarily have to be hardcore, whether they play a ton or a little, they still do everything more quickly and more efficiently.

It might take a proficient gamer an hour to do something a casual would do in 3 hours. I don’t mean casual as in play time, I mean casual as in attitude… the whole “I am going tokittenaround, not really know what i’m doing, and just hit my spells in a way that seems to make sense to me”.

These people consume content more slowly, and because of their careless attitude they often don’t play as much. (People that aren’t passionate about a hobby often would invest less time in such a hobby)

Try to define my playstyle, please… I’m curious about it…

I play around 4-5 hours a day;
I have 6 chars (bought an extra slot);
I do not have a 80 yet. My main is a 50 elementalist;
I have created and deleted many alts to make room for others;
I know almost everything I could/should about any of my chars and the others I don’t have, mostly because I love PvP and to be good with that, I have to know every class mechanic out there;
I had no problems with dungeons whatsoever until now. Had a horrible experience with AC story mode and wonderful ones on explorables. Bad group x good one;
I blow through content easly if I want. I’m yet to find a challenge that makes me believe I’m a bad player of any level (with the exception of one low level personal quest that I died multiple times on my elementalist);
I complete every map before moving to the next;
I have done all DEs up to my level, many many times;
I have my personal quest up to my level;
I watch my money and have, right now, around 5 gold with most of my equip being rares and mostly up to 8-10 levels below my own level. I buy items on the TP every 5-10 levels;
I have helped many low level guildies with informations or company with one of my chars;
I have at least 2 cities completed for every one of my chars, and all of them for my main;

Please, tell me how do you classify my playstyle… Am I casual? Or maybe hardcore? O just an uncategorized kind of player… Let me know how do I fit on your theory

Lance Coolee.9480:

Sheen.8196:

Skorpio.3571:

Sheen.8196:

I’ve noticed with gw2 that it is a battle of proficient gamers vs casual gamers… the proficient gamers went through everything easily, they don’t think any of the dungeons are challenging, and they feel like the game has very little content… yet a bunch of casuals who will hit that point in a few months are sitting here telling them they play incorrectly? Since when is being the most efficient in your rotations and completing tasks, playing incorrectly?

It’s not proficient vs. casual, it’s time played. The “proficient” just have 10 times the amount of hours put in.

Why do people always confuse casual with bad? Casual just as much means players that only log in for 1-2 hours a day or possibly even gasp skip a day!

PS- I agree with most of your other points in this thread.

Wrong… proficient gamers don’t necessarily have to be hardcore, whether they play a ton or a little, they still do everything more quickly and more efficiently.

It might take a proficient gamer an hour to do something a casual would do in 3 hours. I don’t mean casual as in play time, I mean casual as in attitude… the whole “I am going tokittenaround, not really know what i’m doing, and just hit my spells in a way that seems to make sense to me”.

These people consume content more slowly, and because of their careless attitude they often don’t play as much. (People that aren’t passionate about a hobby often would invest less time in such a hobby)

Sheen, your making statements that have some validity to them, but your offering them in a very derogatory way. I wouldn’t associate “casual” gameplay as “careless” gameplay.

Sorry I’m not the type to sugarcoat reality. I think the sugarcoating and coddling of certain playstyles are the reason mmorpgs in this day and age lack so much challenge and content in the first place.

like it or not, it IS just like every other MMO
start > point a > b > kill object x > reward > initiate step 2 > repeat under new parameters

thats fine tho, its hard to break the mold without alienating yourself from the objective community. a lot of companies have tried and failed, usually indy.

“MMO” is not a thing or any particular singular, it is an evolving process, each evolution taking the best of its predecessors and encompassing it within a new concept.

Sheen.8196:

Lance Coolee.9480:

Sheen.8196:

Skorpio.3571:

Sheen.8196:

I’ve noticed with gw2 that it is a battle of proficient gamers vs casual gamers… the proficient gamers went through everything easily, they don’t think any of the dungeons are challenging, and they feel like the game has very little content… yet a bunch of casuals who will hit that point in a few months are sitting here telling them they play incorrectly? Since when is being the most efficient in your rotations and completing tasks, playing incorrectly?

It’s not proficient vs. casual, it’s time played. The “proficient” just have 10 times the amount of hours put in.

Why do people always confuse casual with bad? Casual just as much means players that only log in for 1-2 hours a day or possibly even gasp skip a day!

PS- I agree with most of your other points in this thread.

Wrong… proficient gamers don’t necessarily have to be hardcore, whether they play a ton or a little, they still do everything more quickly and more efficiently.

It might take a proficient gamer an hour to do something a casual would do in 3 hours. I don’t mean casual as in play time, I mean casual as in attitude… the whole “I am going tokittenaround, not really know what i’m doing, and just hit my spells in a way that seems to make sense to me”.

These people consume content more slowly, and because of their careless attitude they often don’t play as much. (People that aren’t passionate about a hobby often would invest less time in such a hobby)

Sheen, your making statements that have some validity to them, but your offering them in a very derogatory way. I wouldn’t associate “casual” gameplay as “careless” gameplay.

Sorry I’m not the type to sugarcoat reality. I think the sugarcoating and coddling of certain playstyles are the reason mmorpgs in this day and age lack so much challenge and content in the first place.

Well, again you associate “casual” with “careless”.

I consider myself a “casual” player, since I can’t really devote more than a few hours of gameplay on weekdays, but I also tend to blow through challenges because I don’t have as high a learning curve.

To summarize the points to take away in this thread:

1. Grinding is not required to see all of the content. This is what ArenaNet set forth in the manifesto, this is what the philosophy actually is, stop getting this point wrong.
2. Grinding is required to get “endgame” rewards quickly, such as cosmetic armor, legendary weapons, exotic crafts, etc. This is fine for some and bad for others. This point WILL BE POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE TO DIFFERENT PLAYERS.

These two points dominated this thread, and hopefully this post has reminded you to keep your expectations reasonable and step away from sensationalist black/white opinions.

Lance Coolee.9480:

Sheen.8196:

Lance Coolee.9480:

Sheen.8196:

Skorpio.3571:

Sheen.8196:

I’ve noticed with gw2 that it is a battle of proficient gamers vs casual gamers… the proficient gamers went through everything easily, they don’t think any of the dungeons are challenging, and they feel like the game has very little content… yet a bunch of casuals who will hit that point in a few months are sitting here telling them they play incorrectly? Since when is being the most efficient in your rotations and completing tasks, playing incorrectly?

It’s not proficient vs. casual, it’s time played. The “proficient” just have 10 times the amount of hours put in.

Why do people always confuse casual with bad? Casual just as much means players that only log in for 1-2 hours a day or possibly even gasp skip a day!

PS- I agree with most of your other points in this thread.

Wrong… proficient gamers don’t necessarily have to be hardcore, whether they play a ton or a little, they still do everything more quickly and more efficiently.

It might take a proficient gamer an hour to do something a casual would do in 3 hours. I don’t mean casual as in play time, I mean casual as in attitude… the whole “I am going tokittenaround, not really know what i’m doing, and just hit my spells in a way that seems to make sense to me”.

These people consume content more slowly, and because of their careless attitude they often don’t play as much. (People that aren’t passionate about a hobby often would invest less time in such a hobby)

Sheen, your making statements that have some validity to them, but your offering them in a very derogatory way. I wouldn’t associate “casual” gameplay as “careless” gameplay.

Sorry I’m not the type to sugarcoat reality. I think the sugarcoating and coddling of certain playstyles are the reason mmorpgs in this day and age lack so much challenge and content in the first place.

Well, again you associate “casual” with “careless”.

I consider myself a “casual” player, since I can’t really devote more than a few hours of gameplay on weekdays, but I also tend to blow through challenges because I don’t have as high a learning curve.

And i’ve already clarified I mean casual in attitude, not in time investment. So I don’t know why your mithril armor is in a bunch.

Lance Coolee.9480:

Fayel.7589:

They stated that there WILL be grind for certain AESTHETIC items

Show me where they said this.

I still would like to know where they said this.

Sheen.8196:

Lance Coolee.9480:

Sheen.8196:

Lance Coolee.9480:

Sheen.8196:

Skorpio.3571:

Sheen.8196:

I’ve noticed with gw2 that it is a battle of proficient gamers vs casual gamers… the proficient gamers went through everything easily, they don’t think any of the dungeons are challenging, and they feel like the game has very little content… yet a bunch of casuals who will hit that point in a few months are sitting here telling them they play incorrectly? Since when is being the most efficient in your rotations and completing tasks, playing incorrectly?

It’s not proficient vs. casual, it’s time played. The “proficient” just have 10 times the amount of hours put in.

Why do people always confuse casual with bad? Casual just as much means players that only log in for 1-2 hours a day or possibly even gasp skip a day!

PS- I agree with most of your other points in this thread.

Wrong… proficient gamers don’t necessarily have to be hardcore, whether they play a ton or a little, they still do everything more quickly and more efficiently.

It might take a proficient gamer an hour to do something a casual would do in 3 hours. I don’t mean casual as in play time, I mean casual as in attitude… the whole “I am going tokittenaround, not really know what i’m doing, and just hit my spells in a way that seems to make sense to me”.

These people consume content more slowly, and because of their careless attitude they often don’t play as much. (People that aren’t passionate about a hobby often would invest less time in such a hobby)

Sheen, your making statements that have some validity to them, but your offering them in a very derogatory way. I wouldn’t associate “casual” gameplay as “careless” gameplay.

Sorry I’m not the type to sugarcoat reality. I think the sugarcoating and coddling of certain playstyles are the reason mmorpgs in this day and age lack so much challenge and content in the first place.

Well, again you associate “casual” with “careless”.

I consider myself a “casual” player, since I can’t really devote more than a few hours of gameplay on weekdays, but I also tend to blow through challenges because I don’t have as high a learning curve.

And i’ve already clarified I mean casual in attitude, not in time investment. So I don’t know why your mithril armor is in a bunch.

From the first post on it: "…yet a bunch of casuals who will hit that point in a few months are sitting here telling them they play incorrectly? "

No one is taking months to get to 80 because they are inept. A child or mentally challenged person could hit 80 in a month given the time to do it. Leveling isnt hard even if you die every 10 minutes, you’ll still hit 80 almost as fast as a normal player if that is your intent.

You will rarely find the “casual in attitude” players on the forums. Anyone who cares enough about a game to read about it online is putting in some effort. It is well known that forum goers for MMOs make up a small percentage of the total.