Guild Wars 2

Gohlar.3671:

I completely disagree. You still run around killing 20 rats. The questing is actually much worse than normal mmos imo due to the fact that there is no presentation. Imagine if you got a quest in another mmo and all it said was “Kill 20 rats”. That’s GW2.

LOL! I’ve done more than half of the hearts in the game and there are no quests like you described. Nothing tells you to go kill X of Y. In fact there is only one task I remember where I had to kill rats, but I also had to clean up graffiti and do a few other things in order to “keep the town’s reputation”. There are a couple other ones that tell you to reduce a certain population but there’s still more you can do to finish them than just kill mobs.

Nothing in your post was worth reading after that. 0/10

i made a post in suggestion forums considering legendarys and the “grind” faktor in it. while i think to a certain degree you need some sort of “grind” it should be the player decides which he wants to do. feel free to comment there^^

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/please-give-more-OPTIONS-to-craft-a-legendary/first#post262609

silvermember.8941:

I think the issue here with the OP is their expectations versus Arenanet. When they heard no grind, the op stupidly believe Arenanet meant you wont have to work for something

This thread is so ironic. Not only did OP not say that, but no grind means not having to do something over and over again. That’s what dungeons are. You do them over and over again for cosmetic skins. That’s cosmetic grind. If you don’t care about cosmetics then why are you even commenting? Go and stand around in your crafted set being AFK.

Arazel.4185:

I’ve done more than half of the hearts in the game and there are no quests like you described. Nothing tells you to go kill X of Y. In fact there is only one task I remember where I had to kill rats

‘Help Farmer John kill Centaurs’
‘Centaurs killed: 40%’

It’s another way of saying 4/10.

0/10.

I’ll definitely agree about the personal storyline stuff.

It started out brilliantly. I loved the charr legions, and whomever was writing for them clearly had the lion’s share of writing talent. I can’t speak for the other races (and I hear some of them are particularly terribad), but the charr beginning is exemplary and really fun. Plus it provides you with a sound idea of what it means to be a charr.

Theeen you head into the Orders, and the game forgets who your character is. This is annoying, but it was at least made tolerable by Tybalt Leftpaw, who also has some pretty great writing.

But then you have the Pact.

Oh gods, the Pact.

That’s an example of some of the outright worst writing I’ve seen in any game, ever. Ever. Ever. Instead of using Destiny’s Edge or something, and personalising the storyline based upon the respective racial hero of Destiny’s Edge, they pull this Trahearne character out of their butts. A character that non-sylvari hadn’t even heard of up to that point. And a total Mary Sue to boot. The biggest, worst kind of Mary Sue possible.

“Call me Tray-tray, I’m going to save the world! Priiince Ruurriiiik!”

I want to murder him in his sleep. I despise Trahearne with a passion. Maybe it’s fine for the tra-la-la-vari but for everyone else? No. Just… no. No on every conceivable level. After discovering just how bad the end is, I just have little desire to play the game past a certain point, as I have nothing to look forward to.

So to sum up: The starting storylines are great, the Orders are pretty good, and the Pact is … can I join the Elder Dragons instead?

Whomever was responsible for that travesty needs to be fired. Because I think that this might top Mass Effect 3 for the worst ending ever (and yes, I am talking about the director’s cut as well, which went all hand-holdy).

Sheen made a good point that some people see leveling as a grind, by your logic Gaurudan then we should all start off at 80 cause Anet promised no grinding. We should have all skills and gear too because there’s no grinding. In fact if it were a truly no grind game the moment you logged in a fanfare would play and the words YOU WIN would appear and that’s the entire game. No grind whatsoever.

But maybe you think leveling is fun, not a grind. Alright well now all the GW2 players need to subscribe to your definition of what is fun, what is a grind, and at what point does something fun become a grind. Because remember they said no grind in their manifesto and the sole reason you claim you are mad is because it EXISTS, as defined by you, even if it’s optional.

Basically this boils down to:

Arenanet: We don’t want anyone to grind in GW2.

Certain players: Despite all the opportunities and systems you provide to present me with choices and variety and fun play, I’m going to grind anyway because I have literally no control over myself and what I do, and you are big jerks because you were unable to stop me from grinding.

I still continue to be amazed that people can compare their own subjective opinion on a video with their own subjective experience in the game, come up with what they feel are “facts” about what ArenaNet did and didn’t do, and then call other people illogical. It’s like people are just intentionally being obtuse in order to create argu….wait a second…

Swagman.9013:

First off I have to address the I could get cool skins from old content in wow part.
Buy wow – 60
Buy tbc – 60
Buy wotlk – 60
Buy cata – 60
Buy panda – 60

That is if you have been loyally playing at the release of all the games, your 300 bucks deep minus the sub fee, I think you payed your dues to have some old content skins but oh so nice of wow to add transmute so late in the game.

And to your point of the manifesto, if you get that it’s optional, and you get that maybe they added grinding in for the sake of those who like grinding. Then literally you are mad cause they didn’t follow it to the T and have a 0 grind game?

Are you saying then, that had they called that blog post, Our MMO beliefs, and not mentioned the word manifesto, then you would have 0 qualms.

Up until Cataclysm every expansion and month of subscription was worth the cost, otherwise I wouldn’t have bought them. True, they added the mechanic quite late, but at least it’s available for in-game gold, not some real money currency.

I don’t mind having insane grinds like the legendary weapons. What I do mind is having a grind for armor skins. And the grind in the dungeons doesn’t necessarily come from the fact that you have to do 20 runs, but from the fact that it’s hard to get a group and even harder to finish the dungeon.

In Guild Wars 1, there were a couple of armors that costed a lot (like the FoW armor, Vabbian armor, Primeval and so forth). However, you could get some nice skins at decent costs. Keep in mind there were no travel and repair costs in Guild Wars 1 and as such you never actually lost gold. It’s the other way around in Guild Wars 2. The crafted armor skins are terrible and all the nice skins require you to grind. So, how is it again, that they are taking everything we love about Guild Wars 1 and bringing it here? People loved instant travel in GW1 and it made its way into GW2, but with a rather big cost (huge improvement, really). Same was the case with not having to repair armor. I remember the first time playing the game, after having played WoW (afterwards I went back to WoW, but that’s beside the point) and I was like: “You don’t have to repair armor? That’s awesome.” The first days in the game were simply breathtaking because it was different from WoW and in a good way. How is that they expect me to have that same feeling here when they have: travel costs, repair costs, armor grinds, all of which have been done before? Also, did you know what was the reward for completing a story there? A green weapon with an unique skin (green meant high quality there, by the way). What do you get here? Some WvW blueprints and some stupid blues and greens. Wow, so awesome.

Moreover, I could understand not respecting everything in the manifesto, because it was released quite a while ago. What I don’t understand is not sticking to what they said 6 months ago when beta started, which is that you would get 1 piece of dungeon armor per run (and it was actually so during the BWEs).

Zen.1740:

silvermember.8941:

I think the issue here with the OP is their expectations versus Arenanet. When they heard no grind, the op stupidly believe Arenanet meant you wont have to work for something

This thread is so ironic. Not only did OP not say that, but no grind means not having to do something over and over again. That’s what dungeons are. You do them over and over again for cosmetic skins. That’s cosmetic grind. If you don’t care about cosmetics then why are you even commenting? Go and stand around in your crafted set being AFK.

LOL, cosmetic grind. Repeat after me cosmetic grind.

Grind is something that is needed to progress further in the game. Unfortunately, for you pov, cosmetic aka skins do not help you progress the game any further, is just something nice to have. I have crafted gear so what? I saw the dungeon gear hated the look and started focusing on thins I actually enjoy.

You are pretty much angry that you have to work extremely hard for Lamborghini when a Toyota will get you to the same place at same rate (assuming you follow the speed limit).

The reason I m commenting is because you don’t seem to have a basic understanding of the word grind. And you seem to be perfectly OK in swimming in your own ignorance (which is fine, except that it starts to shape the uninformed opinions).

Swagman.9013:

Sheen made a good point that some people see leveling as a grind, by your logic Gaurudan then we should all start off at 80 cause Anet promised no grinding.

The game doesn’t need levels. They added them to help avoid confusing WoW players. Look it up if you don’t believe me.

silvermember.8941:

Grind is something that is needed to progress further in the game.

Wrong.

silvermember.8941:

The reason I m commenting is because you don’t seem to have a basic understanding of the word grind. And you seem to be perfectly OK in swimming in your own ignorance.

I love irony. Keep it coming.

the game cannot, as of now, make hardcore 40+ hours a week players happy.

just for your information; i played 55hours and havent seen 1 dungeon yet.
havent done pvp and wvwvw for more than 2-3 hours each.
16%map completion and level 38.

i mean.. i play 15-20h a week and this game is a GODSEND to me.

to each his own.

“…When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’
Again pretty much the same thing as before. The combat part is too subjective to discuss – note: this doesn’t contradict my above statement as to how combat is active. It is active, but it depends on whether you like being restricted to 5 skills and some utilities or not…”

You are not restricted to just 5 skills! You have 10 through weapon swapping + your utility skills which you often swap while moving between combat. Also the trait system modifies the collective build strategy. As a Guardian I may choose to add traits that make Spirit weapons last 50% longer or dual 10% more damage, etc… I may add 50% to retaliation and put my build together around that . It seems to me a lot of thought/design went into making the system simple but powerful.

I don’t see the huge grid of skill options in games like WoW and AION are a benefit. I think it’s more cluttered. In my experience you have a grid of skill and several of them do something very similar. The trait system + weapon swapping + reduced skill in HUD make for a situation where your build becomes dynamic. I’m often switching utility skills and weapons between combat (but while moving) to get the best results in a given situation.

“… In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great.
Again, this is a part that requires too much subjectivity to discuss, but I think we can all agree they’ve done a great job of distributing fun heart quests all over the world. Of course, that doesn’t meant everyone’s supposed to enjoy every single heart quest.”

Heart quest were added last. They were added to make the traditional MMO player feel like they have quest. This was stated in interviews, it’s documented. Having said that I enjoy them and I’m glad they are there! The core of the story is told through personal story (your story) and dynamic events (the world story). When you sign into GW2 you at level 1 you have all these options open to you. Do I go do my personal story? Do I do a heart quest? do I chase down events? You have choices. In other games (well, except for a few very new ones like Rift) you have this linear path through quest and that’s it.

Gauradan.8361:

And the grind in the dungeons doesn’t necessarily come from the fact that you have to do 20 runs, but from the fact that it’s hard to get a group and even harder to finish the dungeon.

this should have been the topic of your post then, not Anet lied to our face about no grind.

This is situational. It can be changed by you

I have never been unable to complete a dungeon I’ve started and I only play with pugs. But I communicate and strategize and try my best to understand the mechanics of the encounter.

Avatar.1923:

the game cannot, as of now, make hardcore 40+ hours a week players happy.

Sure it can. If they enjoy playing the game. If they don’t like playing the game, there’s not a whole lot anyone can do to make it worthwhile for them.

I fall into the category of 40+ hours a week… I’ve played almost 200 hours in the first month. I’m still extremely happy with the game, and feel that my expectations were exceeded or met in every way.

Grind is repeating an activity you don’t enjoy over and over as fast as possible in order to achieve some result that you see as being desirable. If you’re enjoying yourself, repetitive activity is not a grind. It’s play. If you aren’t enjoying yourself…pretty much anything will be a grind. Putting a carrot at the end of the grind (reward for doing something you don’t like) just encourages this mentality. ArenaNet has done everything they could do to remove the incentive, and remove the ability, to grind. If people still choose to do it anyway…that’s not ArenaNet’s fault.

Alright, I wanted to give up on the thread and I came back because I saw there were still people defending my points, yet I feel like it’s not worth it anymore. If I had called anyone stupid or spoiled, I would probably have been infracted by now, but then again I don’t defend anything ArenaNet does mindlessly.

I just can’t believe how many people are defending the game by simply saying the grind is optional. If WoW had required you to do the same 10-20 things 600 times over in order to get a cosmetic skin, people here would have been laughing and saying: “How can people still play WoW, look at that grind”. I can’t for the life of me understand how people see doing the same thing over and over again as being fine in Guild Wars 2, but as a grind in another game.

Swagman.9013:

this should have been the topic of your post then, not Anet lied to our face about no grind.

This is situational. It can be changed by you

I have never been unable to complete a dungeon I’ve started and I only play with pugs. But I communicate and strategize and try my best to understand the mechanics of the encounter.

That was never meant to be the topic of this thread. You just picked that single point and made it the topic of your posts. The thread was, like the title says, about what they promised in the manifesto and what they delivered on the 25th of August.

Edit: Also, you’re saying grind is a subjective thing. I guess the same applies for WoW then. Why then would people define WoW as grindy? Perhaps some people really enjoy doing the same raid bosses over and over for months. Perhaps people enjoy doing the same events over and over in Guild Wars 2. If everything is subjective about grinding, how is Guild Wars 2 better than WoW? By your logic, it’s not, and it’s all a matter of preference. Why then would they market it as the MMO which innovates the genre, when it all comes to whether you like WoW or Guild Wars 2, instead of which one is better?

Gauradan.8361:

I just can’t believe how many people are defending the game by simply saying the grind is optional. If WoW had required you to do the same 10-20 things 600 times over in order to get a cosmetic skin, people here would have been laughing and saying: “How can people still play WoW, look at that grind”.

Because people identify themselves with the things that they consume. If you criticize GW2 then it obviously means that you are insulting the person that bought it, etc. There are studies on this type of thing.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2011/08/users-treat-criticism-of-favorite-brands-as-threat-to-self-image/

Interestingly enough the people that were mocking WoW before GW2 came out were laughing at how silly it is to have to do a dungeon over and over again for a better piece of gear. Now that GW2 is out and those people have realized that GW2 has hundreds of times more grind, it’s really funny to watch them. Now, suddenly cosmetic items don’t matter because the grind is optional to have them. Legendary weapons don’t matter because the grind is optional to have them. Karma doesn’t matter because the grind is optional to have it.

So what is left? PvP, being AFK or making new characters. Exploring the world doesn’t even give a title. There’s no point doing it unless you want the skillpoints or gifts of exploration for a legendary weapon.

Swagman.9013:

How did they not deliver guardian? There is only an optional grind, you arekitten cause they said there is no grind but they offered a grind for those who choose it.

It’s like a mall that proclaims “we don’t want our mall shoppers to climb stairs” so they have escalators for every single floor, you can get anywhere you need to by using an escalator, but then you see a stairwell and become enraged?! What is this bull&@$! you said you don’t want us climbing stairs?!
Well those are for people who prefer to take the stairs, but they are optional
No you said no stairs and I see stairs I don’t care if it’s optional I’mkitten and you are liars.

awesome and your previous post… awesome

If you give a hand, people will demand an arm… It is always like that.

WoW’s system keeps part of its high level content outside your reach by gear quality metrics. It’s system forces you to repeat lower tier content so you can improve your gear and become strong enough for the next. If you want to see that content, you will hate to grind. To many people, this is a carrot and a good one. It may be, but that’s not the point.

Here, you get the top gear, in terms of stats, pretty fast but the game also gives you an option for more long term oriented goals. Why is it an option? Because those goals won’t make your character stronger, only look better.

Now, I agree they could came up with better ways for skin hunting aside from just mindless repetition of the same content, and I already gave some ideas about it on different threads. But they didn’t… So, for now, if you really feel the necessity of a better look, you will need to grind. Just bear in mind that it’s not tied in any way to your character development throught the progression of the game. Your character is already fully developed if you have 80 exotics, even the bad looking and somewhat easy to access crafted ones.

So, arguing over semantics makes people look really immature. What they said on the Manifesto stands to an extent, although I agree they could have said it better. There is grind, you people are just not forced into it just to continue your character development and/or compete against others to spots in groups because of power limitations.

Try to keep your expectations as realistic as possible, or if all you care about is complain, keep wasting your time here… There will always be people willing to stand up and defend the game as much as you guys are willing to bash it.

It will just keep going endlessly…

@Fayel

Please god no. That’s what Legendaries are for, so you have to grind for them, same with cultural weapons. I don’t get what people want form this game. You want a full armor set of exotics/ legendaries at lvl 80? You don’t need ot get the cultural, you don’t need ot get the legendaries, heck just play with blues/ greens. They don’t add much power, you can complete the game without problem with those. I personally love to go for the legendaries, because it’s a challenge. You can’t eliminate grind from an MMO, not with the current setup MMos follow at least.

Really? The very first reply post and you already failed to understand the OP’s intent; It wasn’t to give his opinions or suggest solutions, rather to break down the manifesto and identify whether or not it delivered based on observable facts.

@OP, well written post, I feel the same way about how the game was delivered.

I chose that point because the others as you admitted were debatable but you had some pretty resolute feelings on this subject, which I feel they still lived up to their end of the word.

And you have to be joking about the grind in wow, the entire archaeology profession is the very definition of grind. I guarantee people are still clearing MC to get a thunderfury.

The title should clarify it is the VIDEO manifesto that is being examined. I think the video version was a very well done and a good summary but it’s purpose was leaning more toward marketing with the Jeremy Soule music and artistic cut-aways.

For me, the real Design Manifesto was done by Mike O’Brien several months before that video was released.
http://www.arena.net/blog/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto
I think this spells out their design philosophy more clearly without the fancy fluff.

“Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.”

I expect there will be people projecting their own expectations into this manifesto as well. It’s probably natural since every has their own definition of fun but people need to actually read what ArenaNet has said. Doing that was what drew me into following the game after I read that manifesto and so far I haven’t been disappointed.

And I know I’ll probably need to do some grinding to get some piece of armor I want, but you know, after seeing GW2’s combat in action I’ll know be having more fun doing it than I will in any other MMO I’ve played.

Sheen.8196:

The type of people that actually seem to be enjoying gw2, are quite “interesting” when it comes to logic.

Your insults are not welcome here. Some of us enjoying the game are quite capable of logic. Grouping a couple million people together based on a couple forum posts is beyond foolish.

Swagman.9013:

I say they delivered on the no grind is necessary promise, but players have interjected grind by making the gear that is meant for the more dedicated players (dungeon and karma) a necessity and not a prestige or badge of honor like it was meant to be.

It was my understanding that they never promised “grinding wasn’t necessary”, but that “grinding wasn’t going to exist, because we don’t believe in it”. In that regard, I was disappointed.

Swagman.9013:

I chose that point because the others as you admitted were debatable but you had some pretty resolute feelings on this subject, which I feel they still lived up to their end of the word.

And you have to be joking about the grind in wow, the entire archaeology profession is the very definition of grind. I guarantee people are still clearing MC to get a thunderfury.

False. According to you, each of us defines what grind is to them. Can you be certain that there is absolutely no one that enjoys archaeology? (of course nobody in their right mind would, but for the sake of the argument, I’ll say it).

Also, in the OP, I never argued whether these grinds are optional or not, or justifiable or not. I just said they existed, despite ArenaNet’s claims. By existing I mean they could be included in what is commonly defined as grind. You brought me into the discussion about how justifiable or optional they are. I never meant for that discussion to take place.

Gauradan.8361:

Swagman.9013:

I chose that point because the others as you admitted were debatable but you had some pretty resolute feelings on this subject, which I feel they still lived up to their end of the word.

And you have to be joking about the grind in wow, the entire archaeology profession is the very definition of grind. I guarantee people are still clearing MC to get a thunderfury.

False. According to you, each of us defines what grind is to them. Can you be certain that there is absolutely no one that enjoys archaeology? (of course nobody in their right mind would, but for the sake of the argument, I’ll say it).

Also, in the OP, I never argued whether these grinds are optional or not, or justifiable or not. I just said they existed, despite ArenaNet’s claims. By existing I mean they could be included in what is commonly defined as grind. You brought me into the discussion about how justifiable or optional they are. I never meant for that discussion to take place.

Alright and to that end I’m saying, if we all define what a grind is to ourselves. Then for the sake of arguement you have to allow that some people may not view the dungeons karma or even legendaries as a grind, but fun.

So for those people that part of the manifesto was spot on. And all I’m saying is, by admonishing something that goes against what you think is fun and falls into a category that you think is grinding, it is being selfish to think it needs to change.

And that’s all I’ve been trying to say, there’s a few thousand other players in this game, we have to consider them all.

Craven.5468:

Your insults are not welcome here. Some of us enjoying the game are quite capable of logic. Grouping a couple million people together based on a couple forum posts is beyond foolish.

So, he’s not allowed to insult the ones defending ArenaNet, but those people are allowed to insult us. It’s been implied over the course of this thread that I was stupid, I’ve been called “spoiled” and that “s” word that is synonymous to dung, yet that was fine and perfectly acceptable.

I would call GW2 endgame (when you hit 80) one giant grind.

For the record, I want to state I thoroughly enjoyed everything about leveling up TO 80, with the exception of the personal story missions (just awful design, IMO).

I was enjoying WvW immensely until I started dying to invisible enemies – either something was changed, or the culling didn’t kick in the first couple of weeks.

I leveled my first character to 80 via Frostgorge – and thankfully so, because when I got to Straits/Leap/Shore later, my first impression was “WTF is this kitteny kitten?”

During the level up process, leveling up armorsmithing was most definitely a GRIND. I was constantly outleveling my craft skill, and I was constantly short on fine mats to keep leveling my craft skill, so I was constantly out farming mobs just for drops. Of course this is when the trading post was down, but I’d have been out farming mobs for gold if it was up (as I wouldn’t have been able to buy everything I needed with the gold I had made).

But once you hit 80 – everything is a long, boring grind.

Look at the cost of karma armor, WvW armor, armor via gold – all long grinds.

Maybe my definition of a grind is different from ArenaNets – but repeating something well beyond the point of challenge or fun for a built up reward is what a grind is. Many things are fun the 1st time, and even the 5th time – but so few of those things are fun the 30th time – because they are no different than the first time – just easier. At that point they are simply uninteresting.

I ran that CoF speed clear (Magg) maybe 6 times (I have 100 tokens or so). That’s not enough tokens to do anything, yet that particular run (I haven’t been back since DR was implemented) is already not remotely interesting to me. But I have to run it more (or other runs) to get anything.

That most definitely is what a grind actually IS.

Throw in the diminishing returns systems (that seem to be bugged anyhow), and it’s like ArenaNet is saying “You’re too good at our game – go do something else!”, but that something else has a diminishing returns system as well.

Dungeon rewards fade over time – check.
Karma rewards fade over time – check.
Coin rewards fade over time – check.
Drops from mobs fade over time – check.
Steep travel costs when you swap from one activity to another – check.

All of those things feel like punishments to the player, and punishments for playing the game efficiently.

The thing is, when people are trying to do something the most efficient way possible, it means that they are no longer doing it for the fun of the task, but the reward.

That CoF Magg run was fun the first time, for sure, and perhaps the 2nd time. But after 6 or so runs, it will never be the same level of fun again. If I ever run it again – it will purely be for the tokens (grind), so efficiency is key.

But everything ArenaNet is telling me, by their actions, is that efficiency is bad. This the only game where the overwhelming message from the game is “The better you are at this, the worse your rewards will be” that I’ve played – rather than the overwhelming message being “If you do X, your reward is Y, and the faster you can do X 75 times, the faster you get 75 rewards of Y to buy your shiny”.

Maybe that 2nd message isn’t perfect – but it’s way better than the first message – which is illogical and a discouragement to “play your way”.

Anyways – I’m leveling up other classes now because at lower levels you don’t do level 80 content – and level 80 content is one of this games major problem areas (grindy, buggy, unrewarding content).

Swagman.9013:

Alright and to that end I’m saying, if we all define what a grind is to ourselves. Then for the sake of arguement you have to allow that some people may not view the dungeons karma or even legendaries as a grind, but fun.

So for those people that part of the manifesto was spot on. And all I’m saying is, by admonishing something that goes against what you think is fun and falls into a category that you think is grinding, it is being selfish to think it needs to change.

And that’s all I’ve been trying to say, there’s a few thousand other players in this game, we have to consider them all.

And ArenaNet could very well cater for both kinds of people. How? Very simple: reduce the cost of karma armor, so that those who view it as a grind can stop doing events. All the while, the people who consider it fun can get the armor, but also keep doing the events because they’re fun.

Edit: Also, the fact that I’ve gotten my armor more easily doesn’t impede your fun. You can still keep doing the dungeon even after you no longer need tokens, for fun.

My two biggest issues with the manifesto is their claim of the lack of a quest grind and how my decisions make a permanent impact on the game. Of the two issues:
#1. I’m not opposed to the PVE quest ‘grind’ per se. I am disappointed that they told me it wouldn’t be there and yet it is. Warcraft (which inarguably what this is being compared to) gives me a “Kill 20 Wolves…” quest. In GW2 I still have the same quest but rather than enumerating the kill count I just get a sliding progression bar. It doesn’t eliminate the fact that I have to kill a predetermined number of wolves to complete the quest.

#2. (and most disappointing to me). When I read the manifesto and saw that my decisions were “permanent” I thought how great that is because that means multiple playthroughs and changing my decisions means the next time results in a different game. Wrong. During the PVE gameplay there is not a single “permanent” decision. If I don’t aid a camp being overrun by Centaurs that just means in 15 minutes the centaurs will magically leave and that event just starts over.

Gauradan.8361:

Craven.5468:

Your insults are not welcome here. Some of us enjoying the game are quite capable of logic. Grouping a couple million people together based on a couple forum posts is beyond foolish.

So, he’s not allowed to insult the ones defending ArenaNet, but those people are allowed to insult us. It’s been implied over the course of this thread that I was stupid, I’ve been called “spoiled” and that “s” word that is synonymous to dung, yet that was fine and perfectly acceptable.

What personal attacks you have undergone in no way excuse this individual from dragging everyone who enjoys this game into a pile and claiming they are all illogical. This wasn’t about you, move on.

Gauradan.8361:

Swagman.9013:

Alright and to that end I’m saying, if we all define what a grind is to ourselves. Then for the sake of arguement you have to allow that some people may not view the dungeons karma or even legendaries as a grind, but fun.

So for those people that part of the manifesto was spot on. And all I’m saying is, by admonishing something that goes against what you think is fun and falls into a category that you think is grinding, it is being selfish to think it needs to change.

And that’s all I’ve been trying to say, there’s a few thousand other players in this game, we have to consider them all.

And ArenaNet could very well cater for both kinds of people. How? Very simple: reduce the cost of karma armor, so that those who view it as a grind can stop doing events. All the while, the people who consider it fun can get the armor, but also keep doing the events because they’re fun.

Edit: Also, the fact that I’ve gotten my armor more easily doesn’t impede your fun. You can still keep doing the dungeon even after you no longer need tokens, for fun.

Well then this sentiment along with the projected problem as we have worded it is a far more agreeable approach than the Anet lied about grinding one.

What just happened is a well thought out problem and possible solution in an intelligent context.

I believe karma rewards should be boosted for reasons X, Y, Z because of evidence manifesto, but in a reasonable amount so as not to disturb balance of the hardcore and casual.

If I saw that as a post I’d agree all day with that. But stating that Anet lied when they certainly did not (even though you still feel they lied to you) comes off as hostile and warrants the same response.

For people to say “the grind is optional” is a cop-out, seeing that there are no alternatives for obtaining rewards.

For people to say “rewards aren’t what this game is about” is also a cop-out. If they’re so strongly apposed, why do they exist in every corner of the game?

There is no logical argument to be made against the percentage of the community asking that the devs replace the “grind” with something else that may be equally challenging.

Craven.5468:

What personal attacks you have undergone in no way excuse this individual from dragging everyone who enjoys this game into a pile and claiming they are all illogical. This wasn’t about you, move on.

It’s obvious he was talking about the people that are enjoying the game and are posting in this thread. Everyone not posting in the thread is, again quite obviously I would say, excluded from any remarks. They’re not contributing to the discussion, so they can’t be judged. Since you hadn’t posted in the thread up until that post, you too were not included in the category of people that are illogical. This wasn’t about you, move on.

Swagman.9013:

Gauradan.8361:

Swagman.9013:

Alright and to that end I’m saying, if we all define what a grind is to ourselves. Then for the sake of arguement you have to allow that some people may not view the dungeons karma or even legendaries as a grind, but fun.

So for those people that part of the manifesto was spot on. And all I’m saying is, by admonishing something that goes against what you think is fun and falls into a category that you think is grinding, it is being selfish to think it needs to change.

And that’s all I’ve been trying to say, there’s a few thousand other players in this game, we have to consider them all.

And ArenaNet could very well cater for both kinds of people. How? Very simple: reduce the cost of karma armor, so that those who view it as a grind can stop doing events. All the while, the people who consider it fun can get the armor, but also keep doing the events because they’re fun.

Edit: Also, the fact that I’ve gotten my armor more easily doesn’t impede your fun. You can still keep doing the dungeon even after you no longer need tokens, for fun.

Well then this sentiment along with the projected problem as we have worded it is a far more agreeable approach than the Anet lied about grinding one.

What just happened is a well thought out problem and possible solution in an intelligent context.

I believe karma rewards should be boosted for reasons X, Y, Z because of evidence manifesto, but in a reasonable amount so as not to disturb balance of the hardcore and casual.

If I saw that as a post I’d agree all day with that. But stating that Anet lied when they certainly did not (even though you still feel they lied to you) comes off as hostile and warrants the same response.

Using logical vernacular doesn’t make you a logical person.

This entire thread you furthered your opinionated argument over a thread that originated as merely an assessment of intent vs the actual observation. Simply put, the OP just applied the Scientific Method, and you attempted to debunk him based on your opinions of what you would like the result to be.

Swagman.9013:

Well then this sentiment along with the projected problem as we have worded it is a far more agreeable approach than the Anet lied about grinding one.

What just happened is a well thought out problem and possible solution in an intelligent context.

I believe karma rewards should be boosted for reasons X, Y, Z because of evidence manifesto, but in a reasonable amount so as not to disturb balance of the hardcore and casual.

If I saw that as a post I’d agree all day with that. But stating that Anet lied when they certainly did not (even though you still feel they lied to you) comes off as hostile and warrants the same response.

I never stated they lied. Perhaps they didn’t even feel getting karma armor was a grind. I’m just pointing out that it does require the completion of several hundred dynamic events, which makes it, in the common definition of the notion, a grind, which in turn was contradictory to their statement in the manifesto. It was an observation, nothing more. Besides, saying that my post is hostile is a bit too much. In fact, the OP is probably my least hostile post in the entire thread.

Furthermore, reducing the cost of the items does not remove the grind, it merely makes it more manageable.

For the content designers to really hold true to their word, obtaining rewards would have more of a dynamic “quest-based” feel (where there are uniquely clear objectives in place that would drive the player to the end result), rather than the cookie cutter “do x, y times”.

Oh so the op used the scientific method, with his own personal GW2 experience.

I hear running 1 experiment with no control data, or opposing theories is how science is done these days.

Cause I have had and it seems like many others have had a very different view point from his, but I’m the wrong one for trying to reach a compromise, well you call that opinionated, but the op has been using facts the entire time. Ok.

Gauradan.8361:

I’m just pointing out that it does require the completion of several hundred dynamic events, which makes it, in the common definition of the notion, a grind, which in turn was contradictory to their statement in the manifesto

You’re looking for a game where you do everything exactly one time?

Swagman.9013:

Oh so the op used the scientific method, with his own personal GW2 experience.

I hear running 1 experiment with no control data, or opposing theories is how science is done these days.

Cause I have had and it seems like many others have had a very different view point from his, but I’m the wrong one for trying to reach a compromise, well you call that opinionated, but the op has been using facts the entire time. Ok.

I would think that we both read the same series of posts, so why don’t you show me one statement the OP made that explicitly injects his opinion.

Porky.5021:

Gauradan.8361:

I’m just pointing out that it does require the completion of several hundred dynamic events, which makes it, in the common definition of the notion, a grind, which in turn was contradictory to their statement in the manifesto

You’re looking for a game where you do everything exactly one time?

I personally was just looking for ArenaNet to hold true to their word; I am still rooting for them, but IN MY OPINION there are just far too many things they hadn’t delivered on.

Gauradan.8361:

Swagman.9013:

Well then this sentiment along with the projected problem as we have worded it is a far more agreeable approach than the Anet lied about grinding one.

What just happened is a well thought out problem and possible solution in an intelligent context.

I believe karma rewards should be boosted for reasons X, Y, Z because of evidence manifesto, but in a reasonable amount so as not to disturb balance of the hardcore and casual.

If I saw that as a post I’d agree all day with that. But stating that Anet lied when they certainly did not (even though you still feel they lied to you) comes off as hostile and warrants the same response.

I never stated they lied. Perhaps they didn’t even feel getting karma armor was a grind. I’m just pointing out that it does require the completion of several hundred dynamic events, which makes it, in the common definition of the notion, a grind, which in turn was contradictory to their statement in the manifesto. It was an observation, nothing more. Besides, saying that my post is hostile is a bit too much. In fact, the OP is probably my least hostile post in the entire thread.

And all I was pointing out is that there is nothing in the game that requires you to get that armor, so your grind is self induced. You will get that armor eventually if you just play the game normally which is 100% possible as you are now. The only reason you view it as a grind is because you want it now.

Lance Coolee.9480:

Furthermore, reducing the cost of the items does not remove the grind, it merely makes it more manageable.

For the content designers to really hold true to their word, obtaining rewards would have more of a dynamic “quest-based” feel (where there are uniquely clear objectives in place that would drive the player to the end result), rather than the cookie cutter “do x, y times”.

That would be a way better approach, in my opinion… Or just the crafting approach of GW1.

And as noted before, everyone with some sense of what a MMO is all about would feel lied to about the manifesto part of “we don’t want players to grind” because even the level up process is a grind of a sort . Don’t be so obtuse, people.

“We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2, no one enjoys that, no one finds it fun.”
Can I have the dungeon armor that I like without grinding? No.
Why are dungeons a grind? Because they’re not fun.
Why aren’t they fun? Because they’re poorly designed.
Why are they poorly designed? Because the difficulty is artificially created via huge health pools and huge damage on mobs, instead of clever mechanics.
Oh, so I can’t have that dungeon armor then? Nope.
You can’t just say that to people. ArenaNet need people to buy their expansions to keep the game going. How do you get people to buy expansions? By making the previous content entertaining.

There you go lance. Bottom of page 1

Swagman.9013:

Oh so the op used the scientific method, with his own personal GW2 experience.

I hear running 1 experiment with no control data, or opposing theories is how science is done these days.

Cause I have had and it seems like many others have had a very different view point from his, but I’m the wrong one for trying to reach a compromise, well you call that opinionated, but the op has been using facts the entire time. Ok.

If it had been any other game, doing 600 things of the same type (which is kill/collect/escort/defend type of activity) would have been called a grind, which is specifically why I classified these activities as grinds. I don’t know why the word “grind” is so taboo when we’re talking about Guild Wars 2. Why can’t we call activities that in other games are viewed as grinds by the very same name here? Just because ArenaNet said the game is designed for fun? That’s hardly reason enough. There are grinds in the game, it’s obvious. Whether they’re required in order to get the most enjoyable experience is irrelevant, since the OP didn’t debate that issue in the first place.

Porky.5021:

You’re looking for a game where you do everything exactly one time?

Why ask a question to which you already know the answer? You know it would be absurd to ask that, nor would it be preferable.

Swagman.9013:

Gauradan.8361:

Swagman.9013:

Well then this sentiment along with the projected problem as we have worded it is a far more agreeable approach than the Anet lied about grinding one.

What just happened is a well thought out problem and possible solution in an intelligent context.

I believe karma rewards should be boosted for reasons X, Y, Z because of evidence manifesto, but in a reasonable amount so as not to disturb balance of the hardcore and casual.

If I saw that as a post I’d agree all day with that. But stating that Anet lied when they certainly did not (even though you still feel they lied to you) comes off as hostile and warrants the same response.

I never stated they lied. Perhaps they didn’t even feel getting karma armor was a grind. I’m just pointing out that it does require the completion of several hundred dynamic events, which makes it, in the common definition of the notion, a grind, which in turn was contradictory to their statement in the manifesto. It was an observation, nothing more. Besides, saying that my post is hostile is a bit too much. In fact, the OP is probably my least hostile post in the entire thread.

And all I was pointing out is that there is nothing in the game that requires you to get that armor, so your grind is self induced. You will get that armor eventually if you just play the game normally which is 100% possible as you are now. The only reason you view it as a grind is because you want it now.

Enough with these style of responses. They are garbage.

Nobody can require anybody to do anything. How can you possibly use that as an argument?

Every one of the “reward-based” goals can only currently be met by grinding.

You mean to tell me that I as a consumer aren’t allowed to expect ArenaNet to deliver on their word of not believing ANY aspect of the game should feel like a grind?

Swagman.9013:

And all I was pointing out is that there is nothing in the game that requires you to get that armor, so your grind is self induced. You will get that armor eventually if you just play the game normally which is 100% possible as you are now. The only reason you view it as a grind is because you want it now.

If I had done that, I would probably have gotten bored before the first piece. Repetition without reward becomes dull. And there is no way anyone could possibly make an MMO , or even a game, that is not repetitive.

Swagman.9013:

“We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2, no one enjoys that, no one finds it fun.”
Can I have the dungeon armor that I like without grinding? No.
Why are dungeons a grind? Because they’re not fun.
Why aren’t they fun? Because they’re poorly designed.
Why are they poorly designed? Because the difficulty is artificially created via huge health pools and huge damage on mobs, instead of clever mechanics.
Oh, so I can’t have that dungeon armor then? Nope.
You can’t just say that to people. ArenaNet need people to buy their expansions to keep the game going. How do you get people to buy expansions? By making the previous content entertaining.

There you go lance. Bottom of page 1

Yes, the BOTTOM of page 1, where his opinions were provoked and delivered. Again, they had no bearing on the ORIGINAL premise of his post, which was what you seem to argue repeatedly.

If you want to combat me with semantics, at least do it apples to apples.