Guild Wars 2

This is one of the Things I so love about GW..
Learning and honing skills – rather than mindlessly slapping on bigger and shinier stats
to be able to get even bigger and shinier stats
to be able to get that ultimate big and shiny stat that leaves all new players in the dust…

Here, the “big and shiny”… isn’t a stat… it’s being skilled.
Use knowledge and cleverness to predict, adapt and defeat your foes.
If you need numbers telling you how awesome you are, show us your best killstreaks..
Need something to set you visually apart from the most casual players, show us your legendary and mystic stuff!
:)

When you take away out gearing other players – all that defines you is skill.

So if we all have the same gear the better player is the more skilled player it shows the state of gaming when players are crying to be over geared to press the i-win button and calling players favouring skill losers rofl!

Even worse is demanding the game changes it’s whole ethos drops it’s unique selling points to become a gearscored but FTP clone for the elites with epics who are afraid to play on a level playing field.

Since I don’t play that much every day due to work and personal obligations, I’m absolutely loving the lack of gear treadmill.
No gear2win, no pay2win, especially no grind2win, it’s all about skill.
All the F2P MMO players know what I’m talking about.
Feels so good to bash people’s faces in, who are used to having their crutch in the form of superior gear/cash shop items. At the same time, when I get my behind handed to me, I know it was due to the other player being better than me.

Grinding doesn’t make you more hardcore, practice, skill and the ability to compete on equal grounds makes you one. Only baddies need crutches and gear treadmill is for robot casuals who need ego boosters which they can’t achieve by getting better themselves.

I would probably never pvp in this game again, if the current system would change.

For OP: my main “carrot” is everything that makes me have fun. Getting new looks, socializing, discovering some easter eggs/puzzles in the world, getting more skilled/better myself and you know. . .having fun.

a lot of you guys really are acting like carebears lol. getting this worked up and offended at the thought of people outgearing you in pvp, even though thats not what most of us in favor of gear treadmills are even talking about… thats just carebear mentality.

also i must say that all the talk about the skill based pvp is silly, because pvp is imbalanced. it’s very far from being all about skill when you’ve got a few classes that are as stupidly OP as the ones in this game

chasingfuries.9635
lot of you guys really are acting like carebears lol. getting this worked up and offended at the thought of people outgearing you in pvp, even though thats not what most of us in favor of gear treadmills are even talking about… thats just carebear mentality

The only “carebears” I see are those who want casual carebear PvP, where they want gear advantage to bail themselves out, there are lots of games that cater to that, GW2 has made no secret that it wouldn’t be doing things that way, really do people do no research before buying a game?

As for balance, it is a fact everyone having the same gear level is more balanced than having gear progression, that classes are not perfectly balanced, is irrelevant to that.

Sylosi.6503:

chasingfuries.9635
lot of you guys really are acting like carebears lol. getting this worked up and offended at the thought of people outgearing you in pvp, even though thats not what most of us in favor of gear treadmills are even talking about… thats just carebear mentality

The only “carebears” I see are those who want casual carebear PvP, where they want gear advantage to bail themselves out, there are lots of games that cater to that, GW2 has made no secret that it wouldn’t be doing things that way, really do people do no research before buying a game?

As for balance, it is a fact everyone having the same gear level is more balanced than having gear progression, that classes are not perfectly balanced, is irrelevant to that.

Took words out of my mouth.

except, like i said, most people voicing that they want a gear treadmill -arent- saying that they want it to affect pvp, so whats your point? what im talking about is something to do at endgame, and i thought that was what the OP was talking about too, since he said the thing he liked about the lack of gear treadmill was the even pvp and the thing he didnt like was the lack of something to work for at endgame.

and as for the other thing, not entirely sure what your point is there either cause i obviously wasnt trying to say that pvp is as balanced with or without gear progression.. i was just commenting on the way people were arguing about it like it was perfect or something

zaxziakohl.5243:

PvP is supposed to be about skill. If you don’t want to compete because you can’t get better gear than others, then you never wanted to actually pvp anyway. You just wanted to pwn faces because you either spent more money or had more time than people with jobs/families etc…

This.

Honestly this thread is proof of why people want gear treadmills, they want to pwn undergeared people and feel strong while they would get rolled on fair grounds.
“I’m so the best boxer in the world when I use my revolver on the ring”.

Goes to prove why a game like GW2 was so much needed.

chasingfuries.9635:

except, like i said, most people voicing that they want a gear treadmill -arent- saying that they want it to affect pvp, so whats your point? what im talking about is something to do at endgame, and i thought that was what the OP was talking about too, since he said the thing he liked about the lack of gear treadmill was the even pvp and the thing he didnt like was the lack of something to work for at endgame.

and as for the other thing, not entirely sure what your point is there either cause i obviously wasnt trying to say that pvp is as balanced with or without gear progression.. i was just commenting on the way people were arguing about it like it was perfect or something

But yea, GW2 has gear treadmills but not affect much on stats, simple as that. Some people talk about the endlessly gear treadmills (in Tiers of stats) which never occur in ANet game.

Amadeuz.4617:

But yea, GW2 has gear treadmills but not affect much on stats, simple as that. Some people talk about the endlessly gear treadmills (in Tiers of stats) which never occur in ANet game.

yeah and i knew that when i bought it ^^ but what it comes down to like i said before is that i thought they’d have added anything to fill that gap for all the gamers that like that sort of gameplay but they basically left it empty lol

anyways im just repeating myself now so i tihnk i’ll just let it go

You can go and grind me mats for Volcanus, if you need something to grind for.

If you can answer me why you feel the need to grind for gear in PvE, I’ll understand your side of the situation. In the meantime gear treadmill is utterly gearstomp related in pvp and makes your argument invalid.

If people wants to talk about “skills” in pvp, imo.. WvWvW isn’t about skills. It’s more about numbers and bandwagoning. I agree that taking away gear treadmill is good. It puts everyone on equal ground. But it still has flaws regardless. It became a number game.
[ Take a look at this thread and see it’s flaw: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-wonder-if-ArenaNet-knows-WvW/first#post497616 ]
2 skillful players still can’t beat 4 non-skillful players. In 1vs1, it’s only a matter of finger reflexes or luck. People can guess why the Titan Alliance disbanded and quit. Those are famous hardcore skillful guilds that came from various mmorpgs. A good mmorpg rely on both skills + efforts in the game. If it’s just skills, that’s mmopvp.

That aside, I still stand firm that non-gear treadmill in mmorpg’s PVE brings in more cons than pros. Many non-supporters are missing the point. The point is the feeling of progression that your efforts are rewarded. It’s the progression and constantly working for something that improves your character. It’s nothing about you in real life. It’s an mmorpg, not mmopvp like Counterstrike (where player is 100%). You roleplay as the character and it’s growth depends on how much efforts you placed in. You breed the character. That’s a rpg.

Seriously, the game should be called a mmopvp instead of mmorpg.
GW2 is more of mmopvp + single-player rpg.

chasingfuries.9635:

except, like i said, most people voicing that they want a gear treadmill -arent- saying that they want it to affect pvp, so whats your point?

You claimed that in relation to PvP it was “carebear mentality”, perhaps you should read your own posts.

chasingfuries.9635:

and as for the other thing, not entirely sure what your point is there either cause i obviously wasnt trying to say that pvp is as balanced with or without gear progression.. i was just commenting on the way people were arguing about it like it was perfect or something

That no one claims it is perfectly balanced, but that is more balanced than it would be with gear progression and therefore is more skill based than it would otherwise be and is certainly mroe skill based than other MMORPGs, none of which have perfectly baalcned classes either (nor the justification of being newly released), then on top of that stick idiotic gear progression, to virtually remove any skill from the equation at times (e.g in Rift a maxed out player virtually had to be AFK to be beaten by a new lvl 50).

sry the OP is wrong here there is a gear treadmill as that is the only way i have found to get max stats gear and i would love for someone to show me wrong. show me a way to get max gear with out have to grind mats or gold for hours on end point me to the NPC that sells max stats gear for cheap show me max stats gear on the TP the does not sell for hundred’s of gold

MercAngel.5492:

sry the OP is wrong here there is a gear treadmill as that is the only way i have found to get max stats gear and i would love for someone to show me wrong. show me a way to get max gear with out have to grind mats or gold for hours on end point me to the NPC that sells max stats gear for cheap show me max stats gear on the TP the does not sell for hundred’s of gold

Hundreds? O.o Most of the crafted stuff in the TP was < 3g per piece last time I looked.

That’s also not a gear treadmill. A gear treadmill means you run after the gear forever because as soon as you get the best stat’s something better is released.

Others have explained quite well why a level playing field makes more sense for any form of PvP.

In PvE, gear treadmills are bad because they fragment the player base. Even now, with the low barrier to “best” gear, many groups doing dungeons demand “full exotic gear ONLY.” I suppose that if they find out halfway through a dungeon that your offhand weapon is only “rare,” they’ll kick your kitten out of the party. One can only imagine the kind of stupidity that would go on if we had gearscore or the like in game…

From the dev point of view, anything that spreads out the bell curve of player character ability makes it more difficult to create new PvE content. Even now, what is much too easy for some is much too difficult for others. what would they have to do to challenge someone with an Infinity+1 sword and Plate of Uber Ownage? Who else could run that content, even if the devs had the time to build it?

I think we can have grind to give an edge in PvE but definitely not in PvP.

After playing MMOs like Aion and TERA where they revolved heavily around gear progression in order to participate fairly in PvP (or even to do some PvE content like the harder dungeons as they often had DPS races), they were ultimately not fun over the longer term.
1. You may have great gear but 90% of the time you will PvP someone who has inferior gear so you basically steamroll that player without experiencing any notion of fun.
2. This is probably an extension of 1. but because PvP is heavily gear oriented, you don’t often get quality PvP encounters where players creatively use skills to win. Instead, I see some players (like me in Aion I admit) let their gear hand them victory without resorting to employing effort / skill in PvP.
3. Importantly, you can get gear to PvP but ultimately it is not quality PvP due to 1. and 2. because gear disparity made PvP so bland due to 1. and 2.; hence not as fun as GW2. This is why grinding for gear in order to PvP takes the fun out of it, and I am glad GW2 takes it out of the equation by design to embrace quality PvP which is fun!
4. Of course, there is also that stigma that if you win in PvP that it is because of your gear not your skill.

GW2 is like tennis. I dunno about you but I thoroughly enjoy watching matches where players have similar skill but importantly where they are forced to creatively outplay their opponent. Above all, players have similar “gear” too which is of course strictly regulated to promote fair play so what sets them apart is skill / experience and that makes tennis fun to watch.

Also, might be off topic but I’ve noticed too based on reading various threads about GW2 over the last couple of months, where it seems some people can’t play this game just for fun. If fun is not a good enough reason to play GW2, then maybe it is not the right game for you and you should try Aion, TERA or WoW where you can “work” for gear to PvP and PvE. I doubt Anet will introduce a gear treadmill for PvP because it will alienate people who just want to play GW2 for fun without feeling like a job. Then again it can reduce the quality of PvP as i have mentioned previously and I believe Anet wants to make it like an e-sport so I’d imagined it would want to promote fair PvP where skill, not gear, dictates success, and consequently spectators can watch close and exciting matches.

P.S. Maybe I will see a player creatively beat a thief that can kill him in 3 secs while being invisible unless Anet nerfs the class by then…

It’s important to take a step back and understand whats going on here. The age old grind is nothing more than a form of psychological manipulation. You can see it in the OP’s own word choice. Some gamers have been playing in a skinner box for so long that they don’t find the fact that they are compelled to mindlessly repeat a tedious task they don’t even enjoy the least bit disturbing.

When the operant conditioning mechanism is taken away, they think there’s something wrong with the game.

Grinding is optional, quit if you don’t like it, etc.

gw2 end-game is like any other MMORPG, if that’s what you wanted to hear, yeah.

Still, A LOT less grind than almost if not all MMORPGS.

personally, I think that GW2 has plenty of “carrots”, from a PvE standpoint, probably just not what most MMO players are used to.

Like me, personally, I’ve made the mini zookeeper title my own personal carrot. Why? Because I like pets. And seeing my collection grow day by day makes the necessary grind for gold, fun.

I don’t do much PvP, but I do enjoy playing around with different builds and see which works best. And importantly, which one is fun. And again from PvE, if you play with different builds, you would need to grind a diff set of gear for each build. More carrots.

And of course, there are the legendary legendaries and the cultural armour sets, if you want character “progression”.

What’s wrong with just having fun in a game? Why do people feel the need the have a “competitive edge” over other people? If you want that, go play one of the many games out there which have that. Leave GW2 alone please. I like that I am able to work towards my Mini Zookeeper title and still retain not be totally messed up be it in PvE dungeons or PvP situations, for daring to not spend all my time in getting better gear.

Thread was merged, with an other on of the same topic.

chasingfuries.9635:

seriously this whole “just quit if you dont like it” thing is thrown around way too much in this forum, its just ridiculous. ive never seen it this much in any other mmo ive ever played… so what really is the problem? im starting to feel like its a flaw with the game tbh

I know this quote is a day old and the poster probably won’t see my reply, but maybe others are interested?

Answer:
Any suggestions that make GW2 closer to WoW-model are heresy here. :p

Guild Wars 2 was largely made for people who didn’t like the current MMOs.
Many people who played old MMOs like Ultima Online are very disappointed with how all MMOs became about the trinity and massive gear grind.

GW2 also got a lot of people who normally only play FPS and RTS games.
Arenanet grabbed them with Skill-based PvP and no monthly fees.

GW1 also had many of the same ideas as GW2 does, so many GW1 players like GW2 even if they don’t like other MMOs.

For the most part the people who followed GW2 for a long time got exactly what they wanted.
Many people here absolutely love GW2. (I certainly do!)
They want bug fixes and balance changes (and rightfully so), but large changes to the core mechanics are a big NO.

You want heavy gear grind?
Try an another MMO. (aka the “quit if you don’t like it”-response)

It’s usually a justified response.
Sometimes it just gets overused even when the suggestions are good, like adding more endgame content.
Arenanet will probably be adding more of that eventually.
…just not as a gear grind, one would hope.

chasingfuries.9635:

a lot of you guys really are acting like carebears lol. getting this worked up and offended at the thought of people outgearing you in pvp, even though thats not what most of us in favor of gear treadmills are even talking about… thats just carebear mentality.

also i must say that all the talk about the skill based pvp is silly, because pvp is imbalanced. it’s very far from being all about skill when you’ve got a few classes that are as stupidly OP as the ones in this game

That is ridiculous.

Professional boxing and MMA have weight classes. Sports teams don’t play when one team outnumbers the other. Balance is the very essence of real competition. It’s something to be guarded when you have it and fought for when you don’t.

People like you don’t play for skill based pvp. The idea of two players facing off to find out who is actually better is little more than a joke to you. You play with the hope of getting an edge over the other player, which you then exploit.

I think the days of gear based progression are coming to an end. Largely because the technology is finally getting to a point that player skill (actual player skill) can be transmitted to our game avatars in massively multiplayer environments much like we’ve seen in FPS for years.

We are starting to see this come into play in GW2, in theory the dodge mechanic could be the factor that decides the victor in both PvP and PvE matches.

I think this is a good thing for MMO’s in general. We need to get away from these tired table top game mechanics and make combat a more visceral experience.

I have a high desire to keep playing the game just because of how much fun I have with the combat. I’ve really taken some time to practice the dodge mechanic and can take on 4 to 5 mobs up to 2 levels above me by dodging and staying mobile.

So again in theory when player skill becomes the deciding factor and overrides the game stats and dice roles it takes the gear stats for the most part out of the equation.

I think future MMO’s are going to have to find new hooks other than gear grinding endgames and players are going to have to practice to be the best.

I don’t care if your geared up to do 10,000 crit with your great sword if I’ve trained myself to jump dodge out of the way of it.

Some MMOs are based on the principle of the Skinner Box, and some are not.

Personally, I’m really glad to have found one that isn’t. I played WOW for the free month a long, long time ago and it was not my cup of tea at all. I have not played a single MMORPG since then until now.

I think I’ll be playing GW2 for quite some time to come :-)

This game absolutely punishes the glass cannon build and i mean that in the best possible way. Meaning you can stat to be a push button 2-shot class, but if you get smacked with a pillow you’re going to topple. Knowing how to play a class/build effectively makes all the difference in game, but to the level of balance, it leans more toward players knowledge, reaction times and anticipating their opponents next move.

I played Diablo 3 for awhile (through inferno) and the combat was satisfying enough to continue going through the same content numerous times, gain better gear, but that really only lasts so long. I could never really better my play style.

The carrot, to me, in this game is that i’m enjoying it. The exploration, the jumping stuff (even though the camera is horrible for it), the zerging with friends through content, etc.

I have no doubt we will see a vastly improved counter to zerg-way in WvW, hopefully one that will punish players for amassing an army. It’s actually there right now, but people really need to play more tactfully, capturing points, sabotage supply dolyaks. I’ve had far more fun and interesting combat experiences just running 5 people, cleaning house and avoiding the zergs that are constantly trying to blast down keeps.

There are plenty of ways of adding benefits to gear that do not effect combat but that will probably upset the carebears who will get mad that some players have something they do not.

Sleaze quote
since I was asked what a carebear is…. they are people who expect everything to have everything without having to work for anything… they are the people who expect every child in a sports tournament to receive a trophy just for showing…

You sir, have absolutely NO idea what a carebear means, none at all.I could use my own words, but that may be considered doubtful, so I’ll link the urban dic meanings(google em if you so desire):
Carebear :Term applied by PvP (player vs. player) participants in an online role-playing game to those players are disinterested in PvP conflict. Usually derogatory.
or
referred to a person or a game mechanic which eliminated or reduced all risk and challenge and realism from the game.

This is a game with NO monthly fee.So you guys tell me, when you bought Skyrim(or any other game), did you complain that it had not enough content to keep you interested for months upon months, while you played for 5+ hours per day?
And how valid of an argument it is when you compare this game to another MMO that was and is still up for about 9 years, had enough time and resources to fix bugs and implement new ideas?
What most of you(not all, there seems to be people who actually know what a carebear is, though they are few) call carebear, is actually called ….wait for it….entitlement! The yet another term that’s being overused even though people have no idea what it means!
What is good for a game is constructive criticism.What most of you provide is childish moaning, bordering with idiotic banter.
I won’t go any further, for I fear I might use some harsher words..but hope you get the idea.
Edit:@Red Falcon, just wanted to add, love your signature!

Naoko.7096:

WvWvW isn’t about skills. It’s more about numbers and bandwagoning.

Then why a coordinated guild using proper tactics and combos can wipe an entire server off that counts 10 times their numbers?
With “numbers and bandwagoning” all you achieve is feeding us badges – with that mentality you can only win against servers of disorganized baddies.

Red Falcon.8257:

Naoko.7096:

WvWvW isn’t about skills. It’s more about numbers and bandwagoning.

Then why a coordinated guild using proper tactics and combos can wipe an entire server off that counts 10 times their numbers?
With “numbers and bandwagoning” all you achieve is feeding us badges – with that mentality you can only win against servers of disorganized baddies.

“Can beat an entire server that’s 10 times of your server” – was just your baseless assumption.

Currently, my world has the being outnumbered buff (other world has much population). My world guilds have good commanders, organised and voice chat. We’re still outnumbered. It’s really all about numbers. There’s no skill in WvWvW.

GOSU.9574:

I’ve been playing MMOs for 15 years to, the thing I do not need is a gear grind. I despise them generally, it’s an incredibly weak mechanic and is needed by the MONTHLY pay gimmick to keep you …. paying.

I prefer to have fluff to grind for if I want TO, not because I need TO. This is a PvP game, as soon as you PvEers wrap your little heads around that notion we can progress beyond all these “we need mounts” “we need more end game content” “we need raids” crap.

I’m a PvEr and I endorse this message

Seriously – Not all PvE players want raids and gear progressions, trust me. Some of us love that we can get to 80, grab a set of exotics, and then go out and enjoy the world that ANet has created for what it is, without worrying about raids, or whether our gearscore is high enough or any stuff like that

Ivanov.8914:

You sir, have absolutely NO idea what a carebear means, none at all.I could use my own words, but that may be considered doubtful, so I’ll link the urban dic meanings(google em if you so desire):
Carebear :Term applied by PvP (player vs. player) participants in an online role-playing game to those players are disinterested in PvP conflict. Usually derogatory.
or referred to a person or a game mechanic which eliminated or reduced all risk and challenge and realism from the game.

I guess what he meant by “carebear” was how gw2 lack competitiveness between players in PVE. Look at the bolded. I know that in mmorpg, some very casual players afraid to be out-geared and out-leveled. They want to be in the same level as those who’s willing to spend more hours into the game. (Spoonfed) This spoonfed very casual players, but takes away all the reward of dedicated players. Dedicated players will feel certain unfairness because they’ll be the same level as the casual players no matter the efforts. In reality, you don’t see a martial artist who train much harder than other casual trainees yet still having the same strength and level as the rest. If that really happen, no one wants to use effort since they ended up the same level as non-dedicated ones. It’s the same human nature in mmorpg because it’s people who play it.

I guess everyone defines “carebear” differently so don’t take his post to heart. >_<

Ivanov.8914:

This is a game with NO monthly fee.So you guys tell me, when you bought Skyrim(or any other game), did you complain that it had not enough content to keep you interested for months upon months, while you played for 5+ hours per day?

It seems you also agree with me that gw2 is a single-player rpg after that comparison with Skyrim. Mmorpg and single-player rpg are very different in nature. As I mentioned earlier, mmorpg consist of many players in the same game. Single-player rpg consist of playing against the game with no other players to compare your achievements. People who play single-player games switches game each time after they finishes a story. People who play mmorpg is dedicated to stay in the mmorpg for long term because their avatars are constantly evolving.

The element of rpg is to role-play an avatar. Mmo + rpg, is to role-play an avatar in an enviroment with many people in the same game. Therefore, it’s like breeding your character to compare/compete with the masses. A constant evolution of individuals. This is called “character progression”. It’s a vital element for mmorpg. If not, it would just be mmo-single player game with a limit/stop. As I said, gw2 feels more like a mmopvp + single-player rpg rather than a mmorpg.

P.S. Guys, try not to be affected by each other’s posts. Everyone has their own personal opinions and complaints/feedbacks. There’s no right or wrong because everyone has have their own personal beliefs.

Naoko.7096:

In reality, you don’t see a martial artist who train much harder than other casual trainees yet still having the same strength and level as the rest.

In reality, true martial artists understand that everyone’s ability is unique and valuable, and no one teabags the loser.

Naoko.7096:

This is called “character progression”. It’s a vital element for mmorpg

I don’t play MMOs for character progression. I’m glad there’s no progression at 80, because I can stop feeling like I need to do it and get on with enjoying the game itself.

raphaeldisanto.5478:

Naoko.7096:

In reality, you don’t see a martial artist who train much harder than other casual trainees yet still having the same strength and level as the rest.

In reality, true martial artists understand that everyone’s ability is unique and valuable, and no one teabags the loser..

Well, try not to generalise that everyone who gained from efforts will teabag the losers. The point is that there will be some progression differences between those who made efforts and those who don’t. Even the most humble martial artist wants to gain from trainings that set him apart from those who made no efforts.

Naoko.7096:

Naoko.7096:

This is called “character progression”. It’s a vital element for mmorpg

I don’t play MMOs for character progression. I’m glad there’s no progression at 80, because I can stop feeling like I need to do it and get on with enjoying the game itself.

That’s good for you. I mentioned it before, this game is good for very casual players who play mmorpg for just the story and content like ps3 and xbox rpgs that can be completed in few weeks. It’s not really for dedicated long-term players who initially wanted to settle in this game for few years.

eliminate cultural restrictions
introduce cultural faction count for enemy killed in relevant zones
sell cultural armor to max faction characters for appropriate areas.

this solves the problem of bringing people back to earlier zones and gives us something to work for.

back me up people, this could save the game

Im simply going to say. I disagree with you 1000%. The people grinding in game for “fluff” right now prove you wrong.

If they expanded the clothes system to allow crafter’s to make them then add the ability to skin anything and everything regardless if light/medium/heavy/town clothes. It would be fantastic!

Why can’t the “make an effort” be practice, learning your class, learning the WvW / sPvP maps, etc?

Why do some people insist it should be

If PlayerA.Playtime > PlayerB.Playtime then
PlayerA.Win = True
Else
PlayerB.Win = True
End If

Naoko.7096:

That’s good for you. I mentioned it before, this game is good for very casual players who play mmorpg for just the story and content like ps3 and xbox rpgs that can be completed in few weeks. It’s not really for dedicated long-term players who initially wanted to settle in this game for few years.

If you want a gear grind, play one of the multitude of other MMO’s that offer this.

Kaspanova.7293:

thefounder.2074:

i’ve experienced no teammwork or need to ever plan combos or adjust trait builds or utility loadouts. i mean.. PUGs were speed farming Exp mode dungeons in the first week of the game… i’m a casual player of games. and even i find this a bit dull.

You’re not a casual player. If you were, you wouldn’t be talking about speed farming the dungeons in the first week or trait builds or loadouts. You got to 30 in the first few days, and probably have a bunch of 80s now, right? Not causal.

dont know what you define as casual. when i was playing, i played approx 15-24 hrs a week. it took me 3 weeks to get to 80, but that’s beside the point.. because EVERYONE knew about Speed Farming because thats all you heard about in /map chat… “LFG FOR COF SPEED FARM OMG PATH 2” or on these forums when the big DR Scandal hit… or from all my guildmates in vent… sooooo youre dumb.

and for the record i have one 80, one level 5, two level 2’s.

referring to PVE, what puzzles me is how people think that in the absence of “gear based” progression, or “gear advantage” that skill naturally fills the void. it doesnt. when Anet said “Explorable Mode dungeons would be designed for the mostly highly organized and skilled players” I thought great… that will be a fun challenge for my guildmates and I to work at… but no, these dungeons are Speed Farmed by PUGs in the first week..

and in my experience Dungeon Parties need to do zero communication or teamwork to clear these dungeons… i know because when i join a group i always try to do some planning or short discussion about what Utility skills we were using and what trait builds we were… but people just ignore me completely. why? because there is no need at all for any teamwork to complete these dungeons. planning combos? pfft pointless. just dont stand in the red circle and rally someone if they die. if youre defeated.. RUN BACK FAST and rez zerg the boss.. that’s skill? this is teamwork?

Jestunhi.7429:

Why can’t the “make an effort” be practice, learning your class, learning the WvW / sPvP maps, etc?

Why do some people insist it should be

If PlayerA.Playtime > PlayerB.Playtime then
PlayerA.Win = True
Else
PlayerB.Win = True
End If

What is there for people to practice, learn your class, etc. if they don’t care about PvP? There is no challenge for PvE players in this game. The level of difficulty stays the same from level 1 to 80. Dungeons are not difficult either, they are just time-consuming. Graveyard runs =/= challenge. PvE is severely lacking right now. I’ll keep my fingers crossed for the November update, so we’ll see…

In before “GW2 is a PvP game first” – that’s simply not true.

There is no gear advantage in PvE.

They increase the stat cap by 10%, the new mobs have 10% better stats.

You have no advantage.

The gear advantage is a PvP thing, it’s a case of “farm for the best gear and play as long as the current vets or you will not compete”.

Dedication
Effort
Deserve
Accomplish
Work
Earn

Words people use to describe their behavior in a video game in the pursuit of virtual rewards so that they can convince themselves they possess some admirable attributes or otherwise base their sense of self-worth on.

Think about that for a minute.

This whole earning it vs. people who want hand outs thing sadly reminds me of real life. Meritocracy is a myth, it is a hollow rationalization people use to be harshly judgmental, look down their noses at others, or feel better about themselves.

Pilusilm.5682:

GW2 is like communism where everyone is supposed to be equal and see how communism turned out to be. Not so great.

Sadly this is actually the vibe I am getting from this game. Now before people pounce on me for “wanting an I win button”, there are tons of stats that can be added to desirable gear that do not directly effect combat and yet would still give others the OPTION to grind towards.

I also wonder how people keep throwing around the word that this game is strictly about skill, when in fact it is primarily about you’re build compared to the given situation… only after that is player skill taken into account. Even when considering player skill, there are only 15 skills at their disposal while under pressure which ends up repeating several skills within the same battle.

Also several of these people who have problem with gear with better stats, do not seem to have any problem playing against underleveled players in WvW. If everyone should be equal, then why not implement the same sPvP structure into WvW? Shouldn’t that be the fair thing to do rather than plow over a level 20 in full blues with your level 80 in full exotic? Haven’t heard anyone complain about that yet, but as soon as someone may be able to obtain better gear, then they all panic like the sky is caving in…..

Naoko.7096

In reality, you don’t see a martial artist who train much harder than other casual trainees yet still having the same strength and level as the rest.

This is the dumbest analogy I’ve ever seen. Time spent practicing a certain skill does not equate time spent attaining a certain gear.

If you were to articulate your logic correctly, your analogy would be along the lines of “a boxer gets better by spending time to get a better pair of boxing gloves,” instead of “a boxer gets better better by spending tome to practice.”

Pilusilm.5682

GW2 is like communism where everyone is supposed to be equal and see how communism turned out to be. Not so great.

So organized sports is also communist? If two fencers have to use the same sized swords in competition, it’s communist?

Sleaze.3748

I also wonder how people keep throwing around the word that this game is strictly about skill, when in fact it is primarily about you’re build compared to the given situation… only after that is player skill taken into account.

People continue to do so because it’s not true. It’s your way of disregarding the skill argument, by disregarding its existence.

CJAncients.6907:

Sleaze.3748

I also wonder how people keep throwing around the word that this game is strictly about skill, when in fact it is primarily about you’re build compared to the given situation… only after that is player skill taken into account.

People continue to do so because it’s not true. It’s your way of disregarding the skill argument, by disregarding its existence.

You’re statement makes no sense and does not in any way debate that someones build doesn’t outweight a players skill… please approach me with a valid arguement time…

Also since everyone in this forum seems to love analogies and you mentioned sports and athletes, if they were to follow your rule of thinking then anyone who was more muscular than the average player would be disqualified because that is an unfair advantage of strength.

Are we seriously debating that the ability to press 15 keys in succession, half of which have very high cool downs, has really that high of a skill cap?

If you have skill, it is not an issue, because you will out play others. Plain and simple. If you lack skill, you will complain that you should be able to out gear them with a hardcore time sink.

The smart money is realizing the game is not going to change its design, and invest your time developing skill instead of crying about wanting the invested time returned in gear.

Sleaze.3748

You’re statement makes no sense and does not in any way debate that someones build doesn’t outweight a players skill… please approach me with a valid arguement time…
Also since everyone in this forum seems to love analogies and you mentioned sports and athletes, if they were to follow your rule of thinking then anyone who was more muscular than the average player would be disqualified because that is an unfair advantage of strength.
Are we seriously debating that the ability to press 15 keys in succession, half of which have very high cool downs, has really that high of a skill cap?

It makes a lot of sense. You are choosing to disregard skill with character builds as your argument. By doing so, you are trying to nullify other people’s argument of skill instead of recognizing that this game revolves more around skill than +stats.

I also find it ironic that you want me to have a valid argument when you’d agree with an ignorant communist analogy.

Also, you bring up another faulty analogy. Athletes also spent time developing their muscularity. They don’t spent time working for gear that allow them to perform better. Muscularity is also something that is developed over time with effort, not gained through an outside source. There is also something called weight class and leagues in most sports, where people of similar levels of skill and aptitude are grouped together.