Guild Wars 2

CJAncients.6907:

Sleaze.3748

You’re statement makes no sense and does not in any way debate that someones build doesn’t outweight a players skill… please approach me with a valid arguement time…
Also since everyone in this forum seems to love analogies and you mentioned sports and athletes, if they were to follow your rule of thinking then anyone who was more muscular than the average player would be disqualified because that is an unfair advantage of strength.
Are we seriously debating that the ability to press 15 keys in succession, half of which have very high cool downs, has really that high of a skill cap?

It makes a lot of sense. You are choosing to disregard skill with character builds as your argument. By doing so, you are trying to nullify other people’s argument of skill instead of recognizing that this game revolves more around skill than +stats.

I also find it ironic that you want me to have a valid argument when you’d agree with an ignorant communist analogy.

Also, you bring up another faulty analogy. Athletes also spent time developing their muscularity. They don’t spent time working for gear that allow them to perform better. Muscularity is also something that is developed over time with effort, not gained through an outside source. There is also something called weight class and leagues in most sports, where people of similar levels of skill and aptitude are grouped together.

Replace that word with gear and you’ve just proved everyone who you argued against right.

Pilusilm.5682:

CJAncients.6907:

Sleaze.3748

You’re statement makes no sense and does not in any way debate that someones build doesn’t outweight a players skill… please approach me with a valid arguement time…
Also since everyone in this forum seems to love analogies and you mentioned sports and athletes, if they were to follow your rule of thinking then anyone who was more muscular than the average player would be disqualified because that is an unfair advantage of strength.
Are we seriously debating that the ability to press 15 keys in succession, half of which have very high cool downs, has really that high of a skill cap?

It makes a lot of sense. You are choosing to disregard skill with character builds as your argument. By doing so, you are trying to nullify other people’s argument of skill instead of recognizing that this game revolves more around skill than +stats.

I also find it ironic that you want me to have a valid argument when you’d agree with an ignorant communist analogy.

Also, you bring up another faulty analogy. Athletes also spent time developing their muscularity. They don’t spent time working for gear that allow them to perform better. Muscularity is also something that is developed over time with effort, not gained through an outside source. There is also something called weight class and leagues in most sports, where people of similar levels of skill and aptitude are grouped together.

Replace that word with gear and you’ve just proved everyone who you argued against right.

You made me facepalm twice tonight.

Are you seriously gonna tell me that muscularity is an outside source like gear? you are going to tell me that time spent bettering yourself equals time spent getting equipment?

Sure, you can change a few words around in my post to suit your argument. It will only prove that you don’t have an understanding of what’s being said. You lack reading comprehension and critical thinking, evident from your earlier communism analogy.

It really looks like there are two camps: Those who do PvE and want real ways to progress their characters, and those who don’t care about PvE at all and just want to do PvP, bringing up “sports” as examples of how GW2 should be run. I think the second crowd is playing the wrong genre – This is an mmoRPG. What I think would be perfect for you, is the MOBA genre – League of Legends, DOTA, Heroes of Newerth. Go check them out.

I loved the communism analogy.

So every single sport in the world is communist because every athlete uses the same gear.

the fact that you dont need to be “hardcore” and have the best gear in the game was one of the selling points of the game to me.

i am in college. i take care of a disabled parent. i cannot, and will not, revolve my life around a video game. however, i still love a good mmorpg and have been a pvp fan since rvr in daoc.

if they turned gw2 into wow part 2 where all that really matters is your item level, i would personally be disappointed.

i dont mean this to be offensive, but honestly, if you think playing 24/7 so you get the best gear so your items carry you to victory is some measure of your skill you have a severely screwed up state of mind and i would honestly just feel sorry for you.

lacrimstein.5603:

It really looks like there are two camps: Those who do PvE and want real ways to progress their characters, and those who don’t care about PvE at all and just want to do PvP, bringing up “sports” as examples of how GW2 should be run. I think the second crowd is playing the wrong genre – This is an mmoRPG. What I think would be perfect for you, is the MOBA genre – League of Legends, DOTA, Heroes of Newerth. Go check them out.

The PvPers aren’t playing the wrong genre. It’s the genre that needs to be refreshed. GW2 offers that.

i am in college. i take care of a disabled parent. i cannot, and will not, revolve my life around a video game. however, i still love a good mmorpg and have been a pvp fan since rvr in daoc.

This. Not for me personally, but for God’s sake, people, it’s not communism to invite people of all stripes to play a game – if anything, it’s commercialism. Why would you restrict the appeal of your game to a tiny cadre who are going to devote a significant portion of their lives to it?

Kerri Knight”

This whole earning it vs. people who want hand outs thing sadly reminds me of real life. Meritocracy is a myth, it is a hollow rationalization people use to be harshly judgmental, look down their noses at others, or feel better about themselves.

Good post, and an adroit comparison. It is rather like wealthy people claiming they ‘earned’ their wealth, failing to acknowledge that those less fortunate than them work just as hard with just as much dedication and skill.

Look, guys, it’s pretty simple: if you play the game more, you will always have some advantage. Why? Because you’ll learn the mechanics better. You’ll learn how to react to different situations and opponents. That’s fair. A ‘carebear’ or ‘communist’ system would be one that handicaps people just for being good – a game which calculates how often you win and imposes penalties to try to make you lose more. That would be coddling lesser players. That would be egalitarianism gone mad.

But that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about the fact that GW2 doesn’t give you an unfair, unearned advantage simply for repeating mindless busywork without learning anything or getting better.

You people who argue for a non-stop gear grind are arguing for a system which says, “You know what, you haven’t improved yourself or put any real effort in today, but hey, here’s something just for turning up and mucking about for a few hours.”

due to soo many posts here… I haven’t read all of them… but I’ll toss in my 2 cents for end-game based on what Guild Wars 1 was for end-game… the stats weren’t better, it was the skins of your weapons that defined your level of play. At least in Guild Wars 2, it is not only the skin of your weapon… but your armor as well. So there… grind away for that awsome fluff

CJAncients.6907:

lacrimstein.5603:

It really looks like there are two camps: Those who do PvE and want real ways to progress their characters, and those who don’t care about PvE at all and just want to do PvP, bringing up “sports” as examples of how GW2 should be run. I think the second crowd is playing the wrong genre – This is an mmoRPG. What I think would be perfect for you, is the MOBA genre – League of Legends, DOTA, Heroes of Newerth. Go check them out.

The PvPers aren’t playing the wrong genre. It’s the genre that needs to be refreshed. GW2 offers that.

The #1 reason against progression I see posted on these forums is PvP balance. Your thoughts that the MMO genre needs to be “refreshed” by disregarding PvE and emphasizing PvP are selfish. I’m fine with keeping PvP and PvE separated. You got your sPvP where you get a level playing field and can use “skill” all you want. Don’t come into my PvE and tell me that things that don’t affect you are “unfair” and need to be removed. Again, if you want a game with a fantasy setting, very little PvE, with almost all emphasis on PvP and skill, MOBAs are that way —-——>

lacrimstein.5603:

CJAncients.6907:

lacrimstein.5603:

It really looks like there are two camps: Those who do PvE and want real ways to progress their characters, and those who don’t care about PvE at all and just want to do PvP, bringing up “sports” as examples of how GW2 should be run. I think the second crowd is playing the wrong genre – This is an mmoRPG. What I think would be perfect for you, is the MOBA genre – League of Legends, DOTA, Heroes of Newerth. Go check them out.

The PvPers aren’t playing the wrong genre. It’s the genre that needs to be refreshed. GW2 offers that.

The #1 reason against progression I see posted on these forums is PvP balance. Your thoughts that the MMO genre needs to be “refreshed” by disregarding PvE and emphasizing PvP are selfish. I’m fine with keeping PvP and PvE separated. You got your sPvP where you get a level playing field and can use “skill” all you want. Don’t come into my PvE and tell me that things that don’t affect you are “unfair” and need to be removed. Again, if you want a game with a fantasy setting, very little PvE, with almost all emphasis on PvP and skill, MOBAs are that way —-——>

Contrary to what you may believe, I want everybody in PvE to be equal not because I don’t want it to affect PvP. I want everyone in PvE to be equal because I also believe only skill should matter in PvE.

It’s also funny what you should mention MOBA. In MOBA, you spend time leveling your characters through AI controled NPCs, just like in a MMO. You get items as you level, that gives you stat boosts, just like in gear driven MMOs.

What’s funnier is that you tell me to leave MMO for MOBA, when you could leave GW2 for WoW. So who’s selfish here? The person that wants all MMOs to be all gear progression to suit their preferences, or the person that wants one game to suit his preferences?

Real competition comes from a balanced base.

Imagine F1 if the teams with more money could use whatever they want in their machines…

Im totally stunned at what these kids call “carebear”. They are throwing you in a world where the only way you can win against others is by skills… How is that “carebear”? Curiously these must be the very same people that cries all over when they got PK`ed in other games lol.

Sylosi.6503:

chasingfuries.9635:

except, like i said, most people voicing that they want a gear treadmill -arent- saying that they want it to affect pvp, so whats your point?

You claimed that in relation to PvP it was “carebear mentality”, perhaps you should read your own posts.

stormspirit.6598:

People like you don’t play for skill based pvp. The idea of two players facing off to find out who is actually better is little more than a joke to you. You play with the hope of getting an edge over the other player, which you then exploit.

could you people please learn how to read? lol i said it was carebear mentality to get this offended and argumentative over gear diff in pvp when -thats not what we’re even talking about or wanting-
its almost like, regardless of the reasons people give for wanting a treadmill or something like it, you guys seem to be assuming our “real, secret reason” is to pwn people with less gear, and then u proceed to flip out about it lol. seems carebear to me
i like balanced pvp, im just like u guys.. i just want something to work for at endgame as well that feels rewarding. but obviously thats not what the majority wants so w/e

Pilusilm.5682

GW2 is like communism where everyone is supposed to be equal and see how communism turned out to be. Not so great.

Yeah. That’s what many players are feeling now. Among my friends who used to love this game even before released, many of them start to become inactive because there’s no progression for our characters. There’s no point breeding our role-play characters.

It’s just like N.Korea. When everyone is too equal, no one wants to make effort. Since doctors and cleaners earn the same, who wants to study hard and make effort in life? People have no goals and achievements. In mmorpg context, real dedicated mmorpg’ers lose motivation to play. They found it less fun because there’s no solid goals and reasons to play more than casual players since there’s no such things as growth and promotions.

CJAncients.6907:

Naoko.7096

In reality, you don’t see a martial artist who train much harder than other casual trainees yet still having the same strength and level as the rest.

This is the dumbest analogy I’ve ever seen. Time spent practicing a certain skill does not equate time spent attaining a certain gear.

If you were to articulate your logic correctly, your analogy would be along the lines of “a boxer gets better by spending time to get a better pair of boxing gloves,” instead of “a boxer gets better better by spending tome to practice.”

It’s genre is mmo rpg. Not mmo pvp or mmo player game.
Your analogy only applies if it’s a mmo pvp like counterstrike or other multi-player games where player skills are 100% and clothes or such as just cosmetics. Why mmopvp? It’s a massive online player game where you don’t role-play and breed a character. The game genre is labelled as massive online role playing game. Role play = You role play an avatar that’s not you. You breed it. You grow it. You put dedication to it for several years.

In rpg, game avatars are used as character growth and evolution.
In gw2, all game avatars are “equal” and no developments for the dedicated ones.
It’s very much like Pilusilm.5682 said, gw2 is like communism in the world of mmorpgs.

GW2 shouldn’t call itself mmorpg in the first place to mislead real mmorpg’ers.
Mmopvp or mmopg is the real genre of this game.

chasingfuries.9635:

Sylosi.6503:

chasingfuries.9635:

except, like i said, most people voicing that they want a gear treadmill -arent- saying that they want it to affect pvp, so whats your point?

You claimed that in relation to PvP it was “carebear mentality”, perhaps you should read your own posts.

stormspirit.6598:

People like you don’t play for skill based pvp. The idea of two players facing off to find out who is actually better is little more than a joke to you. You play with the hope of getting an edge over the other player, which you then exploit.

could you people please learn how to read? lol i said it was carebear mentality to get this offended and argumentative over gear diff in pvp when -thats not what we’re even talking about or wanting-
its almost like, regardless of the reasons people give for wanting a treadmill or something like it, you guys seem to be assuming our “real, secret reason” is to pwn people with less gear, and then u proceed to flip out about it lol. seems carebear to me
i like balanced pvp, im just like u guys.. i just want something to work for at endgame as well that feels rewarding. but obviously thats not what the majority wants so w/e

Rewarding endgame you say? That’s crazytalk ! Cause rewards are for capitalists. This is Communism Wars 2. Everyone has to be equal and if you want to play more to get something better for your character then prepare to be shunned and hated by the fanboys. Heresy ! If only the fanboys could burn you at stake for it.

Trying to debate with fanboys is fighting windmills.

Bluestone.7106:

Sleaze.3748:

I am starting to get the feeling that this is more of a carebear version of a real MMO, suited for very casual and non competitive players.

Non competitive? LOL, you are funny.

You think competition stems from having better gear? As that is what your last comment indicates. That is ridiculous. Competition stems from skill and GW2 provides the perfect environment for skill based competition.

Also, define casual please. Because it seems you define casual as someone who enjoys a skill based game.

See this is where your wrong, and how you can tell apart people who where competitive in other mmo’s. In other mmo’s part of the competition is the gear grind, but any competitive player would also know that in the end they will all end up with basically the same gear with some stat variation based on preferences anyways. The real competition in a game like wow stems from PVE, and trust me the competition for worlds 1st second thirds, server first second and thirds region first second and thirds is more competitive than anything in guild wars could ever hope to be.

I dont play wow anymore, but i know this from past experience of just trying to get server firsts, forget about region and world those guys where just on another level. As for PVP any “competitive” player that spends a few hours a day honing skill and gear will gain gear at a similair rate to other players as competitive as he is. For arena you are matched based on your arena points so you will have gear that is the same as others. Whether you are really good or really bad you will for the most part be ranked with people with similair pvp gear to you, players with better gear quickly shoot up through the ranks and level out at a place where players have similair gear, unless they are bad then they end up in a place where their skill +gear = similair.

Anyways my point is that , to say that competition doesnt stem from better gear is silly, because getting better gear is a competition in itself. If your just going for welfare epics from last season, then who cares anyways your behind the curve and blizzard ( for instance) is giving you a way to catch up.

I agree that this game wants you to rely solely on skill, but i dont agree that other games (such as wow) only require time and gear, and no skill. WoW PVE and to a certain extent arena pvp have some of the most cutthroat competition on the market. Most extremely competitive pro gamers have left gw2 already because it just simply doesnt have enough there to hold their interest, even anet admits this is a game for casuals, so dont try and make it out to be a game that is competitive above all else when it is really casual above all else.

Naoko.7096:

Pilusilm.5682

GW2 is like communism where everyone is supposed to be equal and see how communism turned out to be. Not so great.

Yeah. That’s what many players are feeling now. Among my friends who used to love this game even before released, many of them start to become inactive because there’s no progression for our characters. There’s no point breeding our role-play characters.

It’s just like N.Korea. When everyone is too equal, no one wants to make effort. Since doctors and cleaners earn the same, who wants to study hard and make effort in life? People have no goals and achievements. In mmorpg context, real dedicated mmorpg’ers lose motivation to play. They found it less fun because there’s no solid goals and reasons to play more than casual players since there’s no such things as growth and promotions.

CJAncients.6907:

Naoko.7096

In reality, you don’t see a martial artist who train much harder than other casual trainees yet still having the same strength and level as the rest.

This is the dumbest analogy I’ve ever seen. Time spent practicing a certain skill does not equate time spent attaining a certain gear.

If you were to articulate your logic correctly, your analogy would be along the lines of “a boxer gets better by spending time to get a better pair of boxing gloves,” instead of “a boxer gets better better by spending tome to practice.”

It’s genre is mmo rpg. Not mmo pvp or mmo player game.
Your analogy only applies if it’s a mmo pvp like counterstrike or other multi-player games where player skills are 100% and clothes or such as just cosmetics. Why mmopvp? It’s a massive online player game where you don’t role-play and breed a character. The game genre is labelled as massive online role playing game. Role play = You role play an avatar that’s not you. You breed it. You grow it. You put dedication to it for several years.

In rpg, game avatars are used as character growth and evolution.
In gw2, all game avatars are “equal” and no developments for the dedicated ones.
It’s very much like Pilusilm.5682 said, gw2 is like communism in the world of mmorpgs.

GW2 shouldn’t call itself mmorpg in the first place to mislead real mmorpg’ers.
Mmopvp or mmopg is the real genre of this game.

Completely agree with this. Any real RPG fan (pen and paper or otherwise) should know the excitement of growing and progressing a character, that is where the real fun lies. Not in aimless content for no reason. You experience the content to grow your character, not to get costumes that make you look prettier. Grinding for costumes that make you look prettier sounds pretty carebear to me.

To call this an mmorpg would be very misleading i agree. RPG is also about story and character building, but progressing through the story is what builds your character and rewards him (with better loot stats magic etc.). Thats what RPG’s are supposed to be all about , progressing a fictional character to the point where he is almighty and all powerful sounds like fun to me

Red Falcon.8257:

I loved the communism analogy.

So every single sport in the world is communist because every athlete uses the same gear.

The equal part kicks in when the athletes are only allowed to train x amount of hours cause the other athletes did that and for the love of god they can’t train more cause then it would be unfair. That’s what the analogy was about. You spend more time getting gear aka “train more” to get an advantage and that is how real competitions work. There’s no competition to complete something faster cause it doesn’t matter. You gain nothing. Absolutely NOTHING for being the first and the best. Cause everyone is equal. I guess sheltered role players are scared of actual competitive gaming. I’m not talking about PvP here, the PvE is what is non-existant in this game.
Stop trying to argue that PvE works and is fun and great. They made the level cap 80 so there should obviously be some actual PvE in the game. Like super difficult raids that reward you something nice for being able to do them. There’s nothing though. Except making your character look different. So that means that GW2 is about roleplaying and pvp?

ITT, skinner box mice try to paint people who value skill over gear as communists.

BTW I love how bad the sport analogy is. Here’s your analogy, it’s very easy –
You practice a sport, you get better at it. You practice a game, you get better at it.

You seem to lack an understanding of the entire concept of needing to get good to win.

Mammoth.1975:

ITT, skinner box mice try to paint people who value skill over gear as communists.

BTW I love how bad the sport analogy is. Here’s your analogy, it’s very easy –
You practice a sport, you get better at it. You practice a game, you get better at it.

You seem to lack an understanding of the entire concept of needing to get good to win.

Depending on the sport you either do it to beat someone or just be a better team member. But the sport thing is only for PvP and that’s not really the discussion here. There is no real PvE. Why can’t any of you sheep see that? Stop thinking that Anet is god and somehow improved everything about mmos. There is no rpg element, there is no progress on your character after you hit level 80 on it. Getting more skins isn’t really something that will keep players playing guild wars2 for years to come. This feels like the game version of an apple product. Fanboys are harsh defending everything about it and trying to ignore the elephant in the room which is non-existent PvE.

Pilusilm.5682:

Mammoth.1975:

ITT, skinner box mice try to paint people who value skill over gear as communists.

BTW I love how bad the sport analogy is. Here’s your analogy, it’s very easy –
You practice a sport, you get better at it. You practice a game, you get better at it.

You seem to lack an understanding of the entire concept of needing to get good to win.

Depending on the sport you either do it to beat someone or just be a better team member. But the sport thing is only for PvP and that’s not really the discussion here. There is no real PvE. Why can’t any of you sheep see that? Stop thinking that Anet is god and somehow improved everything about mmos. There is no rpg element, there is no progress on your character after you hit level 80 on it. Getting more skins isn’t really something that will keep players playing guild wars2 for years to come. This feels like the game version of an apple product. Fanboys are harsh defending everything about it and trying to ignore the elephant in the room which is non-existent PvE.

You don’t know what a skinner box is, do you?

Again:
Other games – your gear gets better, the mobs get tougher, no net difference, the only change is cosmetic.
GW2 – your gear stays the same, the mobs stay the same, no net difference, the only change is cosmetic.

The real differences? Content doesn’t become any less challenging as time goes on. Drops from dungeon x are just as good as drops from dungeon y. Once you’re level 80, you can try any part of the game, no raid instances that only 1-5% of the population see.

Mammoth.1975:

Pilusilm.5682:

Mammoth.1975:

ITT, skinner box mice try to paint people who value skill over gear as communists.

BTW I love how bad the sport analogy is. Here’s your analogy, it’s very easy –
You practice a sport, you get better at it. You practice a game, you get better at it.

You seem to lack an understanding of the entire concept of needing to get good to win.

Depending on the sport you either do it to beat someone or just be a better team member. But the sport thing is only for PvP and that’s not really the discussion here. There is no real PvE. Why can’t any of you sheep see that? Stop thinking that Anet is god and somehow improved everything about mmos. There is no rpg element, there is no progress on your character after you hit level 80 on it. Getting more skins isn’t really something that will keep players playing guild wars2 for years to come. This feels like the game version of an apple product. Fanboys are harsh defending everything about it and trying to ignore the elephant in the room which is non-existent PvE.

You don’t know what a skinner box is, do you?

Again:
Other games – your gear gets better, the mobs get tougher, no net difference, the only change is cosmetic.
GW2 – your gear stays the same, the mobs stay the same, no net difference, the only change is cosmetic.

Aka no progress.
Other games – your gear gets better, the new mobs are tougher but you can always go back to the weaker ones and have an easier time killing them cause you’ve progressed.
GW2 – Kill stuff, wait around, get a new skin, nothing.
Your argument is weak.

Pilusilm.5682:

Mammoth.1975:

Pilusilm.5682:

Mammoth.1975:

ITT, skinner box mice try to paint people who value skill over gear as communists.

BTW I love how bad the sport analogy is. Here’s your analogy, it’s very easy –
You practice a sport, you get better at it. You practice a game, you get better at it.

You seem to lack an understanding of the entire concept of needing to get good to win.

Depending on the sport you either do it to beat someone or just be a better team member. But the sport thing is only for PvP and that’s not really the discussion here. There is no real PvE. Why can’t any of you sheep see that? Stop thinking that Anet is god and somehow improved everything about mmos. There is no rpg element, there is no progress on your character after you hit level 80 on it. Getting more skins isn’t really something that will keep players playing guild wars2 for years to come. This feels like the game version of an apple product. Fanboys are harsh defending everything about it and trying to ignore the elephant in the room which is non-existent PvE.

You don’t know what a skinner box is, do you?

Again:
Other games – your gear gets better, the mobs get tougher, no net difference, the only change is cosmetic.
GW2 – your gear stays the same, the mobs stay the same, no net difference, the only change is cosmetic.

Aka no progress.
Other games – your gear gets better, the new mobs are tougher but you can always go back to the weaker ones and have an easier time killing them cause you’ve progressed.
GW2 – Kill stuff, wait around, get a new skin, nothing.
Your argument is weak.

And yours is ‘I need to outgear content’.

Pilusilm.5682:

There is no rpg element, there is no progress on your character after you hit level 80 on it. Getting more skins isn’t really something that will keep players playing guild wars2 for years to come. This feels like the game version of an apple product. Fanboys are harsh defending everything about it and trying to ignore the elephant in the room which is non-existent PvE.

There was no progress on your character after you hit 20 on the original Guild Wars. Getting more skins kept people playing Guild Wars for 7 years and counting. This isn’t a game version of an Apple product, as it doesn’t have a 600€ pricetag. Calling people fanboys when they point out errors in your flawed logic doesn’t really improve your argument.

Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean everyone dislikes it.

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

Pilusilm.5682:

There is no rpg element, there is no progress on your character after you hit level 80 on it. Getting more skins isn’t really something that will keep players playing guild wars2 for years to come. This feels like the game version of an apple product. Fanboys are harsh defending everything about it and trying to ignore the elephant in the room which is non-existent PvE.

There was no progress on your character after you hit 20 on the original Guild Wars. Getting more skins kept people playing Guild Wars for 7 years and counting. This isn’t a game version of an Apple product, as it doesn’t have a 600€ pricetag. Calling people fanboys when they point out errors in your flawed logic doesn’t really improve your argument.

Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean everyone dislikes it.

If it was just me not liking it then this topic wouldn’t exist. People played GW1 for PvP content not PvE content. That’s what is lacking here and you are ignoring it. There was only 20 levels as well. GW2 has a cap of 80 without any PvE content.
EDIT: Might as well be a kittening apple product with the gem purchases. Spending €600 to get nothing of actual value.

Pilusilm.5682:

Mammoth.1975:

Pilusilm.5682:

Mammoth.1975:

ITT, skinner box mice try to paint people who value skill over gear as communists.

BTW I love how bad the sport analogy is. Here’s your analogy, it’s very easy –
You practice a sport, you get better at it. You practice a game, you get better at it.

You seem to lack an understanding of the entire concept of needing to get good to win.

Depending on the sport you either do it to beat someone or just be a better team member. But the sport thing is only for PvP and that’s not really the discussion here. There is no real PvE. Why can’t any of you sheep see that? Stop thinking that Anet is god and somehow improved everything about mmos. There is no rpg element, there is no progress on your character after you hit level 80 on it. Getting more skins isn’t really something that will keep players playing guild wars2 for years to come. This feels like the game version of an apple product. Fanboys are harsh defending everything about it and trying to ignore the elephant in the room which is non-existent PvE.

You don’t know what a skinner box is, do you?

Again:
Other games – your gear gets better, the mobs get tougher, no net difference, the only change is cosmetic.
GW2 – your gear stays the same, the mobs stay the same, no net difference, the only change is cosmetic.

Aka no progress.
Other games – your gear gets better, the new mobs are tougher but you can always go back to the weaker ones and have an easier time killing them cause you’ve progressed.
GW2 – Kill stuff, wait around, get a new skin, nothing.
Your argument is weak.

And that “progress” has any replay value? is fun in anyway? the anwser is no. When you go back and kill anything in 1 hit you are not having fun, you are just mindlessly sitting in front of a monitor without actually enjoying anything.

And in this game there is a progress, is actually, as in real life, what ever you think is a good goal. And here is the challenge for most of the conditioned gamers of today, you don`t know hat a goal is if not presented throught 5 months of trailers, dev diaries and it comes packed in a kitteny power creep update.

You are not up to the challenge of this game.

Im so glad to see you are all leaving, a bit sad about all these threads, but they will dissapear as you come back yo your incredifun power creep games….

lacrimstein.5603:

It really looks like there are two camps: Those who do PvE and want real ways to progress their characters, and those who don’t care about PvE at all and just want to do PvP, bringing up “sports” as examples of how GW2 should be run. I think the second crowd is playing the wrong genre – This is an mmoRPG. What I think would be perfect for you, is the MOBA genre – League of Legends, DOTA, Heroes of Newerth. Go check them out.

So, you think the people who are happily playing the game are playing the wrong game and the ones who are begging for the whole game to have it’s core design changed are the ones who should be here?

That’s some sound logic there!

Where exactly is the “challenge” ..? Everyone is equally average. 0 challenge.

Pilusilm.5682:

People played GW1 for PvP content not PvE content. That’s what is lacking here and you are ignoring it. There was only 20 levels as well. GW2 has a cap of 80 without any PvE content.

Ah yes, PvP content. I have 3000+ hours logged in the original Guild Wars and less than 100 of those were spent playing PvP. I have 400 hours logged in Guild Wars 2 now and less than 2 of those were spent playing PvP.

Tell me again how there is no PvE content.

Just play because it’s fun man, if you have no fun don’t play

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

Pilusilm.5682:

People played GW1 for PvP content not PvE content. That’s what is lacking here and you are ignoring it. There was only 20 levels as well. GW2 has a cap of 80 without any PvE content.

Ah yes, PvP content. I have 3000+ hours logged in the original Guild Wars and less than 100 of those were spent playing PvP. I have 400 hours logged in Guild Wars 2 now and less than 2 of those were spent playing PvP.

Tell me again how there is no PvE content.

What is it that you have done in those 398 hours? Something that a level 80 with 40 hours cannot do..? Not trying to diss you and I’d really like to know. Exploring does not count. That can be done at any level. Same with crafting.

Pilusilm.5682:

Where exactly is the “challenge” ..? Everyone is equally average. 0 challenge.

That is just when the challenge start. If you can`t beat a player is not cause the mechanics of the game did a misscalculation, is not cause your build isn`t the proper cookie-cutter of the moment, is not cause he has something that is better than you and that reduces all kind of skills involed in the process. If someone beats you in this game is cause he is better than you, period.

If getting better is not a challenge… Anyway thats just for pvp people.

Alexander Dragonfang.1759:

Pilusilm.5682:

Where exactly is the “challenge” ..? Everyone is equally average. 0 challenge.

That is just when the challenge start. If you can`t beat a player is not cause the mechanics of the game did a misscalculation, is not cause your build isn`t the proper cookie-cutter of the moment, is not cause he has something that is better than you and that reduces all kind of skills involed in the process. If someone beats you in this game is cause he is better than you, period.

If getting better is not a challenge… Anyway thats just for pvp people.

The topic is aimed at PvE though. Most people have no issues with how the PvP works, that’s a place where everyone being balanced and equal is supposed to happen. Not in PvE though. Stop bringing up PvP arguments.

Yea…the people complaining how they want progression via stats and kitten are those baddies who need hte crutch and want to have massive gear advantages over others to compete in pvp. Sorry kiddies but gw2 is skill based, if you cant handle it MoP just came out, have fun getting gear and getting your kills off undergeared players, they will get their vengeance when they get equally geared.

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Yea…the people complaining how they want progression via stats and kitten are those baddies who need hte crutch and want to have massive gear advantages over others to compete in pvp. Sorry kiddies but gw2 is skill based, if you cant handle it MoP just came out, have fun getting gear and getting your kills off undergeared players, they will get their vengeance when they get equally geared.

Again, we’re talking about PvE here.

Sleaze.3748:

I came to this game totally understanding that sPvP was where stats and gear would not matter. With this in mind, I already knew that WvW would be where my time would be spent. After I hit 80 I then realized all gear has basically the same stats and has no effort what so ever to get. Ironically the gear that has possibly the biggest grind to it (WvW) just looks incredibly dull and boring.

I am one of those players that gets hooked by having that carrot dangled in front of you. I rarely get the best gear in MMOs and constantly face people better geared than me, but that never discourages me… it just makes me want that gear more. The cool looking skins are nice, but if thats all gear has then it will get very boring very fast.

If Anet was smart, they would leave the sPvP for the people not into gear treadmills and WvW could be for the people who enjoy earning something with better stats. If this game doesn’t implement something to work toward, then I really doubt it will hold my interest very long. But then again since I am not paying monthly, I really doubt Anet cares to capture the interest of players like myself.

I am starting to get the feeling that this is more of a carebear version of a real MMO, suited for very casual and non competitive players.

Well I get what you are saying but lol carebear is the wrong term, its a skill based game, not gear based. Its focused mostly on pvp, which means it does its job and lets those with more skill and common sense outplay those inferior. I know its hard for ppl like you who want that gear advantage on other players and in pve I can understand what you mean but since I dont give a kitten about pve I also dont care about what pvers want. Anet didnt make the game gear based and it will stay that way, you play well or you die.

Pilusilm.5682:

Again, we’re talking about PvE here.

More specifically, whether being able to outgear content is a good thing.

Pilusilm.5682:

Alexander Dragonfang.1759:

Pilusilm.5682:

Where exactly is the “challenge” ..? Everyone is equally average. 0 challenge.

That is just when the challenge start. If you can`t beat a player is not cause the mechanics of the game did a misscalculation, is not cause your build isn`t the proper cookie-cutter of the moment, is not cause he has something that is better than you and that reduces all kind of skills involed in the process. If someone beats you in this game is cause he is better than you, period.

If getting better is not a challenge… Anyway thats just for pvp people.

The topic is aimed at PvE though. Most people have no issues with how the PvP works, that’s a place where everyone being balanced and equal is supposed to happen. Not in PvE though. Stop bringing up PvP arguments.

So you want a gear threadmill for PvE? or just more challenge in PvE content? if the first, is pointless, if the second, i also want more challenge in PvE.

Mammoth.1975:

Pilusilm.5682:

Again, we’re talking about PvE here.

More specifically, whether being able to outgear content is a good thing.

You just dislike the idea of progress.
I want a challenge that rewards me for beating it. Cause if I just want a challenge then I’d PvP. The reward doesn’t necessarily have to be an item with +5000 damage, removing lootgrind is way easy too, you only get the best item the 1st time you actually complete it. Gives you a reason to not want to run something over n over to grind.

So, why doesn’t AN/NC just take out the leveling system then? What is really gained from a level?

Pilusilm.5682:

Mammoth.1975:

Pilusilm.5682:

Again, we’re talking about PvE here.

More specifically, whether being able to outgear content is a good thing.

You just dislike the idea of progress.
I want a challenge that rewards me for beating it. Cause if I just want a challenge then I’d PvP. The reward doesn’t necessarily have to be an item with +5000 damage, removing lootgrind is way easy too, you only get the best item the 1st time you actually complete it. Gives you a reason to not want to run something over n over to grind.

There is no progress remember? You get better gear, the mobs get better stats, you get nowhere. You’re on a treadmill. We are talking specifically about whether outgearing content is a good thing.

Beating something extremely hard for me is an accomplishment all in its own, I dont need to outgear something to beat it, I have skill, that is my advantage. The true difference between gw2 players and every other mmo player.

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Beating something extremely hard for me is an accomplishment all in its own, I dont need to outgear something to beat it, I have skill, that is my advantage. The true difference between gw2 players and every other mmo player.

People will not understand that.

Most of these conditioned players belive that “getting equipment” improves their abilities. They think that doing the same raid 50 times till by RNG that sword drops, and that sword makes them better (only in stats) is related to skills, they see the word “SKILL” in all of that… which is awfull.

Alexander Dragonfang.1759:

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Beating something extremely hard for me is an accomplishment all in its own, I dont need to outgear something to beat it, I have skill, that is my advantage. The true difference between gw2 players and every other mmo player.

People will not understand that.

Most of these conditioned players belive that “getting equipment” improves their abilities. They think that doing the same raid 50 times till by RNG that sword drops, and that sword makes them better (only in stats) is related to skills, they see the word “SKILL” in all of that… which is awfull.

but… in terms of challenging pve i dont believe gw2 is anything special. in games with gear treadmills, ive gone through insane dungeons and raids that take perfect teamwork and strategy and hours and hours to complete -the difference is you feel like you’re progressing in games with treadmills and you dont in gw2

chasingfuries.9635:

the difference is you feel like you’re progressing in games with treadmills and you dont in gw2

It’s called gating. Basically, it says ‘You must do content x before you can do content y. Because’. Sometimes it says ‘You must do content x y times before you can do content z. Because we’re struggling to keep up the content’.

Usually it’s masked behind dps requirements and ehp requirements and etc etc, but all it amounts to is ‘You need to farm x dungeon y times so that you’ll be able to do z dungeon’.

Other times it’s just blatant, and boy did I enjoy tanking 90 gazillion ubrs runs for onyxia keys. Oh wait, no I didn’t.

Mammoth.1975:

chasingfuries.9635:

the difference is you feel like you’re progressing in games with treadmills and you dont in gw2

It’s called gating. Basically, it says ‘you must do content x before you can do content y. Because’. Sometimes it says ‘you must do content x y times before you can do content z. Because we’re struggling to keep up the content’.

more or less. and tell me im “wrong” but thats the type of thing im used to and would have liked.
I once heard a person say that his idea of playing the game to its fullest had to do with talking to each npc he could talk to. i think thats somewhat pointless but i didnt tell him he shouldnt like it cause its his thing. same goes for people that have come to feel like they enjoy gear treadmills.
and i still feel like something could be added to the game that doesnt affect people that dont like it. an optional grind, and then something new where that gear gets put to use, basically something aside from the current pve and pvp thats meant for gear grinders.. all that comes to mind still for me is just actual guild wars… though im sure all of you would scream if they added that and it wasnt an even playing field i guess…
but you’re all apparently happy with the game the way it is so… i dont see why itd hurt

edit: i’ll just throw out there that i guess one reason i find raiding fun etc is cause of the social part of it. brings guilds together.

In my guild we farm AC every day because it’s easy to gear up. I started betting money on pulls from Lieutenant Khoblai. If I get pulled even once I pay up to a guildie. That improves my personal skill without me needing more equipment. I’m currently at the point where I could probably solo him without gear because I’ve become a better player. That’s more important to me than some numbers increasing.

Oo, that’s a good way to train newcomers. Totally noting it down.

It’s just like N.Korea. When everyone is too equal, no one wants to make effort. Since doctors and cleaners earn the same, who wants to study hard and make effort in life?

Because there are no doctors in North Korea. Right.

Pilusilm – your arguments are riddled with logic-holes. The ridiculous analogy to athletes for instance. Athletes who train for longer will get better. People who play on GW2 for longer will get better for the same reason – they learn to play. Athletes who train for longer hours aren’t rewarded with better gear, for kittens’ sake.

You say “You just dislike the idea of progress”. You know there are many kinds of progress, right? The game has narrative progress – being rewarded by being able to explore more of the world and complete more of the story. Once that’s exhausted, there’s progress in the form of a mass of achievements that can be earned. Then, of course, there’s progress in terms of you actually mastering the game.

People like you just seem to want to be spoon-fed. You think you deserve a pat on the head and a gold trophy just for turning up. If you want the satisfaction of progressing, how about you actually make some progress yourself? Set yourself the task of soloing all champions. Play a difficult area with the loadout you feel most uncomfortable with. Throw yourself out there as a weapon-for-hire and help other players with their story mode. All of these things can bring you engagement and satisfaction – the difference is that you might have to actually put some effort in.

in games with gear treadmills, ive gone through insane dungeons and raids that take perfect teamwork and strategy and hours and hours to complete -the difference is you feel like you’re progressing in games with treadmills and you dont in gw2

Calling you out on this – I don’t believe for one minute those ‘insane’ dungeons required ‘perfect teamwork’. In these games, all party leaders want is people with a particular top tier set of gear to repeat the same simple task again and again ad infinitum, no matter the encounter, because they’ve worked out that’s the easiest way through. Calling it ‘teamwork’ because one of you had to keep jamming heal spells for four hours while another person absorbed all the damage for four hours is a bit self-glorifying.

I agree that there needs to be more incentive to do things but I DO NOT want to see a gear treadmill.

Reputation grinds for unique, gear, titles, achievements, access to special events, etc would be a good idea though.