Guild Wars 2

Pilusilm.5682:

Fanboys will defend gw2 to death regardless of its flaws. What is forcing you to get good gear and do raids/dungeons..? Am I going to stand behind you and break your fingers if you don’t get a certain piece of gear and run a certain dungeon? You can roleplay all you want but what about the people who actually want to get somewhere in this game?
This isn’t farmville but it seems to be turning into one with the idea of having houses. What is there to do at level 80? Besides PvP, craft,explore. Nothing.
EDIT: socializing doesn’t count either cause that’s a perk of an mmo not just this specific one. Large guilds feel like friends lists on Facebook, you don’t know or talk to half the people.

What about the people who don’t want the outcome of each battle to come down to who has farmed the best gear? Why should every game be targeted at one small portion of the potential audience?

If this game were just a WoW clone, who would buy it?

WoW players? Well… no. There’s nothing new here, all they would do is lose their leet geared character to play the same game again. Might as well just roll an alt instead and have access to your mains bank.

Non-MMO players? No again, why would people who aren’t interested in current MMOs be interested in a clone of current MMOs?

Duplicating other games and thinking that you will be as popular is stupid. No one has duplicated WoW’s success no matter how similar they are. It’s time to accept that and realise that people who like games like WoW are playing WoW.

Everyone likes to work for something and then enjoy the fruits of their labor.

Everyone wants a a reasonable opertunity to compete in PVP on an even field.

But the problem is that 40 year old guys with jobs and families playing an hour or 2 maybe 4 nights a week dont want to compete against 20 year old college students grinding out uber items 40 hours a week.

There is no workable answer.

Pilusilm.5682:

Fanboys will defend gw2 to death regardless of its flaws.

No, Pillock-silm – we will happily harp on about its flaws. Most of the threads I’ve started on these forums concerns GW2’s flaws. It is a flawed game. There is much to improve. Everyone who you’re arguing with would agree on this.

But one thing that would make the game infinitely worse and would not improve it one iota would be to introduce a gear grind just so that imbeciles who think merit-based rewards = communism can use free time to make up for their dearth of ability.

Yes, this game needs more to do past level 80. It needs, perhaps, a scavenger hunt, more various costumes/outfits, or something of that nature. But it needs a gear gind system like it needs a hole through the head.

Ghoest.3945:

Everyone likes to work for something and then enjoy the fruits of their labor.

Everyone wants a a reasonable opertunity to compete in PVP on an even field.

But the problem is that 40 year old guys with jobs and families playing an hour or 2 maybe 4 nights a week dont want to compete against 20 year old college students grinding out uber items 40 hours a week.

There is no workable answer.

Hmm. I don’t see why the rewards for their labour have to take the form of gear. Give them gold. Give them karma. Give them rare drops. That’s fine.

Just don’t give them superior gear. They don’t really need it – they’re just psychologically addicted to it.

Curlybaby.6258:

I think your answer is in your thread title.

There is a grind but it IS for fluff.

… and the edge in PvP are your superior skills.

I enjoyed 1 shotting with Ambush, or immortal tanking on a disc priest. fluff is cute and all but it will hardly keep any “hardcore” players. You dont feel more superior with a fluffier weapon.

Ghoest.3945:

Everyone likes to work for something and then enjoy the fruits of their labor.

Everyone wants a a reasonable opertunity to compete in PVP on an even field.

But the problem is that 40 year old guys with jobs and families playing an hour or 2 maybe 4 nights a week dont want to compete against 20 year old college students grinding out uber items 40 hours a week.

There is no workable answer.

TAHNK YOU!!! Holy crappola why couldn’t someone say this earlier.

There is no totally fair solution to put time-heavy players on an equal footing as time-light players unless you take out the “time” factor altogether…which is what GW2 did. Now the “time-heavy” players are understandably begruded that their more-time=more/better-gear does not exist here. I can see why they would be miffed, I would too if that’s what I was expecting and all I had known.

Bottom line is you can’t introduce time-dependant gear-progression in a game that caters to everyone from 15 to 50. It simply wouldn’t be fair for any PvP. The only way to make it fair to those who play a ton is too take out PvP entirely…and that isn’t an option at all.

Obsidian.1328:

Ghoest.3945:

Everyone likes to work for something and then enjoy the fruits of their labor.

Everyone wants a a reasonable opertunity to compete in PVP on an even field.

But the problem is that 40 year old guys with jobs and families playing an hour or 2 maybe 4 nights a week dont want to compete against 20 year old college students grinding out uber items 40 hours a week.

There is no workable answer.

TAHNK YOU!!! Holy crappola why couldn’t someone say this earlier.

There is no totally fair solution to put time-heavy players on an equal footing as time-light players unless you take out the “time” factor altogether…which is what GW2 did. Now the “time-heavy” players are understandably begruded that their more-time=more/better-gear does not exist here. I can see why they would be miffed, I would too if that’s what I was expecting and all I had known.

Bottom line is you can’t introduce time-dependant gear-progression in a game that caters to everyone from 15 to 50. It simply wouldn’t be fair for any PvP. The only way to make it fair to those who play a ton is too take out PvP entirely…and that isn’t an option at all.

Except PvP and PvE are kept seperate anyways. So the “hardcore” crowd got kittened out of both.

Doesn’t matter if they are separate.

If it’s full on gear based then, even without a gear score, people will judge whether you are able to take part based on your gear.

And in PvP it’s even worse as you literally find yourself unable to compete on the same level as either your allies or your enemies.

Either way, one group of players get what they want – people who want the gear treadmill or people who don’t.

Battousai.7586:

Curlybaby.6258:

I think your answer is in your thread title.

There is a grind but it IS for fluff.

… and the edge in PvP are your superior skills.

I enjoyed 1 shotting with Ambush, or immortal tanking on a disc priest. fluff is cute and all but it will hardly keep any “hardcore” players. You dont feel more superior with a fluffier weapon.

Maybe a video game isn’t a healthy place from which to derive a sense of superiority over others to begin with.

Kerri Knight.3168:

Battousai.7586:

Curlybaby.6258:

I think your answer is in your thread title.

There is a grind but it IS for fluff.

… and the edge in PvP are your superior skills.

I enjoyed 1 shotting with Ambush, or immortal tanking on a disc priest. fluff is cute and all but it will hardly keep any “hardcore” players. You dont feel more superior with a fluffier weapon.

Maybe a video game isn’t a healthy place from which to derive a sense of superiority over others to begin with.

Did he mention that he went around going “I can do this and you can’t~” ..? That’s just your ego talking there. Just cause a player wants to get new gear and progress with their character doesn’t instantly mean that they are doing it to outgear the content or just to insult players who played less than they did. Ultima Online was largely about PvP as well but it did have PvE elements in it that made you want to kill stuff.
Yet to see someone tell me what is there to do at level 80 besides explore,craft,PvP.

Battousai.7586:

I enjoyed 1 shotting with Ambush, or immortal tanking on a disc priest. fluff is cute and all but it will hardly keep any “hardcore” players. You dont feel more superior with a fluffier weapon.

I hardly call hitting one button and killing a player/monster “hardcore”.

Could somebody who is completely against any progression in gear please explain to me why it is okay for players to have a level advantage on each other but not okay to have a gear advantage? If you truly want to play a game that is perfectly balanced from the start, then why play a game that has levels at all?

If I were to agree with all of you, I could come to GW2 and complain that I do not have enough time to level to 80 and that it gives players who have more time available to have an ‘unfair’ advantage over me. Whether it is levels or gear… any MMO that has a level system rewards players with more playing time from the very start.

Anyone who is against gear progression can not argue otherwise without looking like a complete hypocrite. Stats from higher levels or gear…. it’s all the same…

side note: for everyone who jumps to thinking I am looking for an “I win button”, I have mentioned in this thread and others to offer non-combat related stats to gear that people can work towards. Yet people against gear progression keep thinking I am looking for crazy stats to one shot people….

Naoko.7096:

In my eyes, that’s what you’re doing. You believe you’re right and pushes your “ideals” to another who don’t feel the same. I never did so.

Actually, that is entirely what you are doing.

You see, I will acknowledge that your playstyle is valid and works for you. There are a plethora of games out there which provide the style you prefer. I don’t go around on their message boards saying they don’t count as MMOs because they don’t do it the way I like.

Meanwhile, you sit here heaping ridicule and labels on those who play the style this game caters to and insist it has to conform to your expectations.

I only share the elements of “rpg” which many people feel that are lacking in gw2. It’s a fact since many players had felt this way. Look around this forum, ign webby and many other places, so much evidences of many players who feel the same way about gw2. You can’t deny that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

“A bunch of people say it, so it is a fact and you can’t deny it”

No, it is not a fact that GW2 lacks RPG elements.

It lacks an endless progression model, that is not a prerequisite for being an RPG just because “a bunch of people say so.”

Yes, your argumental points are valid, but they’re only valid if I talked about those single-player rpg, multi-player pvp or mmopvp/fps. That’s why I said your arguments and refutes are weak if you used it towards mmorpg.

You are using your own cherry-picked version and definition of MMORPG in order to maintain a circular, self-referencing argument.

I understand that gw2 tries hard to make it so different than mmorpgs of the past, I appreciate the differences. But I feel it didn’t work out so well. It doesn’t feel like a mmorpg or what they claimed to be “revolutionised mmorpg”. It takes away some vital points of what makes a mmorpg. If they want to take away those points (gear progression/individual growth) from mmorpg, they should replaced it with something of equavalent or more value. They think only “grind for cosmetics gears” makes a good end-game, but every other mmos already have that. Where’s the other half in gw2? Yes, you can take it away but replace it with something else to fill that hole. Something that makes players feel progressed from extra efforts. Then, I can agree that it’s a revolutionised mmorpg.

Again, you keep insisting that gear progression is “a vital point” of what “makes a[n] MMORPG.”

That’s your opinion.

It is a vital requirement for you to enjoy it, not everyone. So again, there’s dozens upon dozens of options that follow that model, yet here you are in one of the few that serve a different market segment insisting it has to do so as well.

That is why you’re the one pushing your definition on others, not me.

Sleaze.3748:

Could somebody who is completely against any progression in gear please explain to me why it is okay for players to have a level advantage on each other but not okay to have a gear advantage? If you truly want to play a game that is perfectly balanced from the start, then why play a game that has levels at all?

If I were to agree with all of you, I could come to GW2 and complain that I do not have enough time to level to 80 and that it gives players who have more time available to have an ‘unfair’ advantage over me. Whether it is levels or gear… any MMO that has a level system rewards players with more playing time from the very start.

Anyone who is against gear progression can not argue otherwise without looking like a complete hypocrite. Stats from higher levels or gear…. it’s all the same…

Not everyone sees the world in black and white. It’s not always 2 mutually exclusive options.

Focksbot.6798:

I’m getting really impatient with this moronic inability to understand the way different systems work.

Democratic societies do not reward people for effort. They reward people for doing something well, or at least better than other people. We manifestly do not live in a society where everyone gets up, jogs on the spot for eight hours and then gets given an extension to their house, but if they jog for nine hours they get a car as well. Because that would be stupid. In much the same way as it is stupid in other MMOs.

You get a graduation certificate for being GOOD at something.
You get a promotion for being GOOD at your job.
You get rich if you are GOOD at swindling/hoarding/doing business.
You triumph more easily in Guild Wars 2 if you are GOOD at it.

Don’t use personal attacks when your opinions differ from another.
It’s disrespectful and definitely makes you into a troll.

That’s your perception.
My perception?

You get a graduation certificate for being HARDWORKING and dedicated.
You get a promotion for being HARDWORKING and dedicated.
You get rich if you are HARDWORKING and dedicated.
You triumph more easily in mmorpg if you are HARDWORKING and dedicated.

How to be good? Be hardworking and dedicated.
You can’t be good without making efforts.
Before labelling others as “moronic”, tell yourself how shallow you are.

Oh wait, you can’t triump more easily in GW2 if you’re hardworking and dedicated.
So it’s not a mmorpg. GW2 should have it’s genre labelled as mmopvp or fps.

Naoko.7096:

Oh wait, you can’t triump more easily in GW2 if you’re hardworking and dedicated.
So it’s not a mmorpg. GW2 should have it’s genre labelled as mmopvp or fps.

You have no clue as to what an FPS is do you? Guild wars has literally nothing in common with it. It doesn’t even use reticule based combat….

Dead.7385:

Naoko.7096:

Oh wait, you can’t triump more easily in GW2 if you’re hardworking and dedicated.
So it’s not a mmorpg. GW2 should have it’s genre labelled as mmopvp or fps.

You have no clue as to what an FPS is do you? Guild wars has literally nothing in common with it. It doesn’t even use reticule based combat….

mmopvp is dead on though.

Dead.7385:

You have no clue as to what an FPS is do you? Guild wars has literally nothing in common with it. It doesn’t even use reticule based combat….

Given that he thinks “MMOPVP” is a genre, I’m going to guess he doesn’t know what an FPS is either.

Jestunhi.7429:

Sleaze.3748:

Could somebody who is completely against any progression in gear please explain to me why it is okay for players to have a level advantage on each other but not okay to have a gear advantage? If you truly want to play a game that is perfectly balanced from the start, then why play a game that has levels at all?

If I were to agree with all of you, I could come to GW2 and complain that I do not have enough time to level to 80 and that it gives players who have more time available to have an ‘unfair’ advantage over me. Whether it is levels or gear… any MMO that has a level system rewards players with more playing time from the very start.

Anyone who is against gear progression can not argue otherwise without looking like a complete hypocrite. Stats from higher levels or gear…. it’s all the same…

Not everyone sees the world in black and white. It’s not always 2 mutually exclusive options.

So please explain to me how a level 80 having an advantage over a level 20 is fair?

Sleaze.3748:

So please explain to me how a level 80 having an advantage over a level 20 is fair?

No.

Because if I do you’ll use a strawman to exaggerate it to try to prove your point, as has been done far too often in this thread already.

The fact is the game was designed to have absolutely zero grind required.

If you want to grind you can, but you won’t get an advantage from it.

If what you really want is an advantage, not the grind, then I think that says all we need to know about you.

Pilusilm.5682:

mmopvp is dead on though.

Barely.

Is everquest MMOPVP because it has a specific server with a Free For All ruleset in place? It would be like labeling most games with instanced based dungeon MMOCORPG (Massively Multiplayer Cooperative Online Role Playing Game) just because the instances are squashed into 5 man dungeons. The PvP is a part of the game just like the dungeons are.

Dead.7385:

Pilusilm.5682:

mmopvp is dead on though.

Barely.

Is everquest MMOPVP because it has a specific server with a Free For All ruleset in place? It would be like labeling most games with instanced based dungeon MMOCORPG (Massively Multiplayer Cooperative Online Role Playing Game) just because the instances are squashed into 5 man dungeons. The PvP is a part of the game just like the dungeons are.

So what is there to do at level 80..?

Jestunhi.7429:

Sleaze.3748:

So please explain to me how a level 80 having an advantage over a level 20 is fair?

No.

Because if I do you’ll use a strawman to exaggerate it to try to prove your point, as has been done far too often in this thread already.

The fact is the game was designed to have absolutely zero grind required.

If you want to grind you can, but you won’t get an advantage from it.

If what you really want is an advantage, not the grind, then I think that says all we need to know about you.

News flash…. leveling is a grind. Yet you support there being levels and do not support gear progression… hence hypocrite…

Pilusilm.5682:

So what is there to do at level 80..?

What do you want to do at level 80 is the correct wording. Why ask me – I don’t dictate your play. I do dungeons – you don’t like them? It doesn’t bother me a bit.

Dead.7385:

Pilusilm.5682:

So what is there to do at level 80..?

What do you want to do at level 80 is the correct wording. Why ask me – I don’t dictate your play. I do dungeons – you don’t like them? It doesn’t bother me a bit.

But you’re the one arguing against me, so please explain to me what is there to do at level 80..? Stop talking if you can’t say anything.

Sleaze

I’ll explain it to you I suppose.

A lvl 80 vs lvl 20 is technically not fair…you’re right about that. But you’re not really taking into account the speed at which leveling occurs in this game. You can get to 80 anywhere from 1 week to 1 month, even in WvW. It’s really a non-factor considering you could use that time to learn the game mechanics.

Now I suppose if you want to be equalized from day 1 then ya…it’s unfair. Almost everyone, I would bet, doesn’t mind the small amount of time it takes to get to 80. Besides, comparing gw2 leveling speed to other games…it’s like 1/100th the amount of time here compared to those games.

Does it really burden you to spend a couple of weeks, or at most a month, to get to 80? Leveling is actually a little too fast imo, but I’m certainly not complaining.

Pilusilm.5682:

But you’re the one arguing against me, so please explain to me what is there to do at level 80..? Stop talking if you can’t say anything.

I stated I do dungeons. BTW just a note – yes I am level 80. So what I do at level 80 is dungeons as I stated previously. What you do at 80 is up to you. I unlike you don’t need my hand held to tell me where is a nice place to play and where it isn’t. Fun isn’t dictated to me by levels scales or numbering on pieces of pixels. I do dungeons for the multiplayer aspect and social aspect. That to me is endgame enough.

No I do not do SPVP so talking as this is a “PVP” MMO is rather laughable. I do not do WvW so that applies yet again.

You can state the same thing over and over as “what is there to do at 80”, and I will repeat. What do you want to do at <Insert Max Level Here>, as in the instances of gaming that is more important. If it is gear progression/raiding there are games out there. If it is open world PvP there are games out there.

For example: Your last MMO, what did you do at max level?

Sleaze.3748:

News flash…. leveling is a grind. Yet you support there being levels and do not support gear progression… hence hypocrite…

Leveling is all new content.

It’s only a grind if you choose to repeatedly grind through the same stuff.

Plus leveling is possible in pretty much any method the player wants.

Roughly 10 levels per crafting skill 1-400, WvW, solo PvE, group PvE, exploration.

Obsidian.1328:

Sleaze

I’ll explain it to you I suppose.

A lvl 80 vs lvl 20 is technically not fair…you’re right about that. But you’re not really taking into account the speed at which leveling occurs in this game. You can get to 80 anywhere from 1 week to 1 month, even in WvW. It’s really a non-factor considering you could use that time to learn the game mechanics.

Now I suppose if you want to be equalized from day 1 then ya…it’s unfair. Almost everyone, I would bet, doesn’t mind the small amount of time it takes to get to 80. Besides, comparing gw2 leveling speed to other games…it’s like 1/100th the amount of time here compared to those games.

Does it really burden you to spend a couple of weeks, or at most a month, to get to 80? Leveling is actually a little too fast imo, but I’m certainly not complaining.

I agree, level was pretty fast and I did find it more enjoyable than most MMOs. So if someone can hit level 80 in about a month. Than why not add some gear for that level 80 to achieve that takes about the same amount of time? Even then I doubt any gear they could possibly implement would equal such a drastic advantage that a level 80 would have over a level 20.

So then people argue that it is not fair that the level 80 should have an advantage over another level 80 without the same gear. However, it is okay for that undergeared player to have an advantage over someone who has not had the time to hit level 80 yet? My point is that any type of leveling system in an MMO is progression based on the amount of time played. Does it give players an unfair advantage sometimes? Sure does… so if people want a truly level playing field in a game, then all of GW2 should be based on the sPvP environment.

If people want to be against progression of their characters then fine…. be against all forms of progression. Progression in a game should not stop just because some people get their pa.nties all in a wedge.

Pilusilm is trolling, both those who oppose him and even more those who agree with him, dont feed him.

He’s just taking some random complains made by people who never took a minute to read some info about the game:

There’s no endgame.

There’s nothing to do once you get to 80.

There’s no gear grind.

If you do not agree with me you are all fanboys.

The game will die and no one will play it.

Seriously some of these are so obvious I cant belive so many of you are falling for them.

Mik Hell.8206:

Pilusilm is trolling, both those who oppose him and even more those who agree with him, dont feed him.

He’s just taking some random complains made by people who never took a minute to read some info about the game:

There’s no endgame.

There’s nothing to do once you get to 80.

There’s no gear grind.

If you do not agree with me you are all fanboys.

The game will die and no one will play it.

Seriously some of these are so obvious I cant belive so many of you are falling for them.

Oh snap, you got me, no, not really. I’m actually curious of what is it there to do at level 80? Aside from exploring,crafting,PvP(which technically is available since level 2) Explain to me what is there to do. There’s dungeons that are just dps zerg fests..? Doesn’t seem very interesting. Instead of trying to say that I’m “trolling” why not enlighten me with your vast gw2 knowledge about you know, what is there to do at level 80..?

Sleaze

Oh you’re one of the “anti-levels” crowd.

I get it, I really do. The perfect game for me would have zero levels and all of your skills would be quantified by what you do in the world(i.e. spend a day killing rats, get some minor permanent bonus to ratkilling).

But dude… the game is already released!

You really expect ANet to do a massive coding overhaul for this giant, and very complex world? Right now, after 5 years in the making??

I respect your point but, it just ain’t gonna happen right now. Hate to say it, but your argument is moot.

Pilusilm

Gonna tell you a secret, ssshh: what you do at level 80 is the same thing you do at levels 1-79…

Ya…it’s wierd I know. There are only a few exceptions: dungeons & WvW. But it’s mostly true.

One either gets really happy or really angry when one realizes that. It’s a good litmus test for the gaming community I’ve found. :P

Kerri Knight.3168:

Actually, that is entirely what you are doing.

You see, I will acknowledge that your playstyle is valid and works for you. There are a plethora of games out there which provide the style you prefer. I don’t go around on their message boards saying they don’t count as MMOs because they don’t do it the way I like.

You think others are doing it because you did it yourself. When in fact, I did not.
Have you heard of the analogy, “A snake would think another as a snake”?

Secondly, it’s a forum and I have the right to express my opinions when I feel that the game doesn’t feel like a mmorpg. If I feel that the game does not feel like a mmorpg, I will speak honestly.

If people use personal attacks, judges and assumptions, trampling towards the poster instead of the content, I will reply back honestly too. I respect everyone’s opinions, but I don’t respect people who label and judge the poster for expressing our opinions.

You, for one for labelling, falsely judging me with those cherry picking and those wiki stuffs links. It isn’t nice and disrespectful. (to me)

And there’s one other guy who called me a “moron” for expressing my perceptions.
He’s a perfect example of forcing his ideals onto another who thinks differently from him.

Kerri Knight.3168:

Meanwhile, you sit here heaping ridicule and labels on those who play the style this game caters to and insist it has to conform to your expectations..

In what way am I ridiculing and label other players?
It’s all out from your imagination.

If you read the posts all the way to page one, it’s the group of people whom are the ones who ridiculed and labeled the other group of people who expresses negative feedbacks towards this game.

I respect all players but if you actually see the flow of the thread, you noticed something. When I spoke of merely negative feedback of the game, others become disrespectful and being sarcastic to me. It can be evidently be seen in the earlier posts.

Giving negative feedbacks towards the game does not mean I disrespect other players.
So, I don’t know why players are getting overly emotional over my feedback that is towards the game, not them.

Kerri Knight.3168:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

“A bunch of people say it, so it is a fact and you can’t deny it”

No, it is not a fact that GW2 lacks RPG elements.

It lacks an endless progression model, that is not a prerequisite for being an RPG just because “a bunch of people say so.”.

“It’s not a fact” is yours and others’ opinion.
“It’s a fact” is mine and others’ opinion.

It’s because we can already see by now how everyone seems to define mmorpg differently from each other. I merely spoke of mine and group of people who have same perceptions and the elements about “mmorpg”. We can already see 2 split groups how people view mmorpgs. I respect that.

Kerri Knight.3168:

Again, you keep insisting that gear progression is “a vital point” of what “makes a[n] MMORPG.”

That’s your opinion.

It is a vital requirement for you to enjoy it, not everyone. So again, there’s dozens upon dozens of options that follow that model, yet here you are in one of the few that serve a different market segment insisting it has to do so as well.

That is why you’re the one pushing your definition on others, not me.

Yes, that’s my opinion. I feel that there’re many people who feel that individual progressions are vital in mmorpg is my opinion too. My opinion is based on research and being active in many game forums. I also played rpgs since gameboy times and my opinions are formed from that too. If you read my previous posts in this thread, you can see how many “imo (in my opinion)” I included in my posts.

You don’t have to lecture me on that since I never said “everyone and you must think like me”. =/

I never forced nor push my opinions onto you too. I will clarify that.
I will also clarify that I respect your different views from me. If you still feel that I’m forcing my thoughts into you, that’s your own problem for being influenced from reading my post.

Obsidian.1328:

Sleaze

Oh you’re one of the “anti-levels” crowd.

I get it, I really do. The perfect game for me would have zero levels and all of your skills would be quantified by what you do in the world(i.e. spend a day killing rats, get some minor permanent bonus to ratkilling).

But dude… the game is already released!

You really expect ANet to do a massive coding overhaul for this giant, and very complex world? Right now, after 5 years in the making??

I respect your point but, it just ain’t gonna happen right now. Hate to say it, but your argument is moot.

Lol I think you missed my point… I love leveling and I love any kind of progression in an MMO. I was comparing levels to gear progression since they are one in the same. My point was people totally against gear progression should not be playing an MMO that has levels since in their mind it is all an “unfair advantage given to the player with the most time”.

Pilusilm.5682:

Mik Hell.8206:

Pilusilm is trolling, both those who oppose him and even more those who agree with him, dont feed him.

He’s just taking some random complains made by people who never took a minute to read some info about the game:

There’s no endgame.

There’s nothing to do once you get to 80.

There’s no gear grind.

If you do not agree with me you are all fanboys.

The game will die and no one will play it.

Seriously some of these are so obvious I cant belive so many of you are falling for them.

Oh snap, you got me, no, not really. I’m actually curious of what is it there to do at level 80? Aside from exploring,crafting,PvP(which technically is available since level 2) Explain to me what is there to do. There’s dungeons that are just dps zerg fests..? Doesn’t seem very interesting. Instead of trying to say that I’m “trolling” why not enlighten me with your vast gw2 knowledge about you know, what is there to do at level 80..?

Nope, I wont.

There’s no need: every question you asked has been answered extensively by previous posters.

You are either trolling or attentionwhoring because none in their right mind would do something he dislikes and no one would go to people who like to do that particular activity and tell them how boring and dull it is.

It’s like a peanut allegic person going to the “Ladies’ and Gentlemen’s Peanuts appreciation Club” yelling: “HAHAH peanuts sucks! They make people die and taste bad”.

Oh dear!

Sorry about that Sleaze :/

I would certainly agree that is the case with almost all MMO’s for sure. I would only make “time” be “time/money” for that to be even truer(more true? more truer? lol).

In any case, this game’s level progression is so minimal in time spent it doesn’t even register on my radar I guess.

Btw, I don’t necessarily think you have to have all progression or none at all. I tend to frown on absolute viewpoints. I just think progression can be defined in many ways, and not just for gear, stats, etc. — basically things which give you an artificial advantage in PvP.

I view PvP the same way I view RL sports: you all start with the same gear and rules. It’s your dedication to develop and progress within those two parameters that defines you as a champion.

And now I’m rambling…sorry.

greg.3792:

ok I get the replies.

But what does this mean – is this a FPS instead of a MMO?

i.e. there is no progression, we spend minimal time to get to full stats and then that is it its over?

I guess that makes sense given no subscription.

Greg,

I so feel you on your original post. I played a W and a G through. There was never a carrot. I spent 2 weeks on my W getting to level 70 and another 2 weeks grinding out exotic karma gear. The first 2 weeks were mildly fun. I detested the second 2 weeks.

Between the betas and compleyting my first character, I felt like I done all I could do in the game. the maps and DE’s were repetitive. What’s more, diminishing rewards took away what little enjoyment I had left.

I quit and I never looked back. Sure, I’ll come in occasionally and check the forums to see if there was any significant changes, However for the most part, I am done. Unlike its Predecessor, GW2 doesn’t have what it takes to be great.

I had high hopes for thsi game, but I think the only way to really increase you level of enjoyment is to stop playing and move on to something else.

I think both sides have points. I mean the question is without a grind like this game then what happens at end game or does that mean it just doesnt have one? Does just pvp and wvw then count as the end game where in a game like wow there are raids and lots of things to set out to do to get geared?

Instead of asking what you are supposed to do at end game, tell us what you want to do.

And then we’ll see if you can do it.

Note: I’m talking activities, not “get better gear” which is a reward instead of an activity. Forget rewards and tell me what activity you would enjoy doing at level 80.

Naoko.7096:

That’s your perception.
My perception?

You get a graduation certificate for being HARDWORKING and dedicated.
You get a promotion for being HARDWORKING and dedicated.
You get rich if you are HARDWORKING and dedicated.
You triumph more easily in mmorpg if you are HARDWORKING and dedicated.

How to be good? Be hardworking and dedicated.
You can’t be good without making efforts.

Your perception is wrong. That’s not how the world works. You get rewarded for DOING THINGS WELL. The reason you seem to have made a critical mistake is that doing things well often requires hard work. But that doesn’t mean hard work always leads to doing things well.

Here’s you trying out your ‘perception’ in the real world:

“Hey, Mr Bank Manager, I’m here for my money.”
“What money?”
“I started a business, see, and I’ve been working hard at it night and day, so I figured I deserved a reward.”
“Err… well, did you make any profit?”
“Nope. But I worked really, really hard at it. I dedicated my every working hour to it.”
“But you haven’t made any profit yet?”
“Not yet. But I figure that since our society rewards hard work and effort, you ought to give me a reward.”
“Err… no.”
“But I worked hard!”
“Still no.”

However, keep working hard and you’ll eventually become a GOOD businessman. Then you’ll make money.

Similarly, keep working hard at GW2 and you’ll become a GOOD player. Then you’ll get your reward. That’s the connection. Hard work matters, but it does not = success. It’s just part of the long road to getting good, and when you’re good, then you get your reward.

Another point: I’m at level 77. Are you seriously telling me that in three levels I’ll have:

• Completed the story when I’ve only just done the Battle at Fort Trinity?
• Finished the remaining 66% of the world I haven’t done?
• Done all the rest of the dungeons (I’ve only done two)?
• Completed all the jumping puzzles? (I’ve done about six).

I doubt it. This isn’t about endgame at level 80. You guys are asking for endgame after you’ve done every single thing there is to do in the game. Which means ipso facto you’re asking the impossible!

Focksbot.6798:

Similarly, keep working hard at GW2 and you’ll become a GOOD player. Then you’ll get your reward.

Except there is currently no reward developed in the game at the moment for this. Also if you are speaking of legendary weapons… those are the epitome of grind with a road block of RNG to make things “fun” according to the devs.

PS Your analogy is also way off wack, I could name a million situations were people get rewarded for not working hard or doing something well. Try again.

Focksbot.6798:

Naoko.7096:

That’s your perception.
My perception?

You get a graduation certificate for being HARDWORKING and dedicated.
You get a promotion for being HARDWORKING and dedicated.
You get rich if you are HARDWORKING and dedicated.
You triumph more easily in mmorpg if you are HARDWORKING and dedicated.

How to be good? Be hardworking and dedicated.
You can’t be good without making efforts.

Your perception is wrong. That’s not how the world works. You get rewarded for DOING THINGS WELL. The reason you seem to have made a critical mistake is that doing things well often requires hard work. But that doesn’t mean hard work always leads to doing things well.

Here’s you trying out your ‘perception’ in the real world:

“Hey, Mr Bank Manager, I’m here for my money.”
“What money?”
“I started a business, see, and I’ve been working hard at it night and day, so I figured I deserved a reward.”
“Err… well, did you make any profit?”
“Nope. But I worked really, really hard at it. I dedicated my every working hour to it.”
“But you haven’t made any profit yet?”
“Not yet. But I figure that since our society rewards hard work and effort, you ought to give me a reward.”
“Err… no.”
“But I worked hard!”
“Still no.”

However, keep working hard and you’ll eventually become a GOOD businessman. Then you’ll make money.

Similarly, keep working hard at GW2 and you’ll become a GOOD player. Then you’ll get your reward. That’s the connection. Hard work matters, but it does not = success. It’s just part of the long road to getting good, and when you’re good, then you get your reward.

I can’t simply agree with you. The game controls can be such that you never get a decent reward for the actions that you’ve undertaken. I the game conditions are not balanced then you will feel like you’ve excessively worked for little reward.

If, by your own example, you can never charge anything but 1 cent mark up on a product you will never feel rewarded for your effort. You’ll never sell enough to make a profit. You can’t make a game like this rewarding enough by playing more hours. At some point you just have to admit it isn’t fun and play something else, or jhust stop playing.

This is GW2 = nonstop grind is not fun.

Sleaze”

Could somebody who is completely against any progression in gear please explain to me why it is okay for players to have a level advantage on each other but not okay to have a gear advantage? If you truly want to play a game that is perfectly balanced from the start, then why play a game that has levels at all?

The only point in levelling I see is this: it gives you a steer on how far out you can go, how fast to take the story, how ready you are for certain aspects of the game. It’s also a device for introducing you slowly to the full range of potential abilities.

A friend of mine is going to buy the game soon, and I’m going to really enjoy being able to take a levelled up character and help her out in her story mode and general questing without my character being ridiculously OP. Sure, I could roll a new character, but I like my current character and am looking forward to taking her in as the cool sidekick on someone else’s quest.

SHM.7628:

I can’t simply agree with you. The game controls can be such that you never get a decent reward for the actions that you’ve undertaken. I the game conditions are not balanced then you will feel like you’ve excessively worked for little reward.

If, by your own example, you can never charge anything but 1 cent mark up on a product you will never feel rewarded for your effort. You’ll never sell enough to make a profit. You can’t make a game like this rewarding enough by playing more hours. At some point you just have to admit it isn’t fun and play something else, or jhust stop playing.

I actually, in part, agree with you about this – the system is flawed. The controls and balance aren’t developed quite well enough to make it feel like you’re really getting a grip on how to master combat.

But my post is more about the theory of the GW2 system, the idea behind its implementation, rather than how it turned out. And I’d say part of the way there is better than not going there at all.

I am a very, VERY casual player:) I say that because I don’t want anybody to think I have some ulterior motives behind this post:)

I don’t understand why skill/gear/fluffiness/achievement/vanity/power/content gap would be a bad thing in a MMORPG. If someone is playing ten hours a day and invests effort in googling, practicing and playing, he should get better payoff than me, in EVERY aspect. It’s perfectly logical. It makes for a diverse environment and there’s a content for everybody.

Even in single player games, you don’t have the content simply unlocked, you have to work/play for it. You have not purchased everything in a MMORPG (in the sense of a rich guy purchasing the track, vehicles and bribed drivers so he could participate in races and win them:) ), you have purchased the potential to participate/unlock/get the content. You have purchased the polygon where you have options open to do what you want and to the level you want.

Some will say that this is not real life, but the opposite and that it’s a game. That’s correct, but MMORPG does mimic the life in some aspects, mainly ones that relate to the open world and content. Which has beggars, lawyers, merchants, bullies, busy people, kitten etc.

It’s a game as well. And in every game, there is competition, in one form or another. Also, in every game there’s a reward, in one form or another.
Gear grind is both reputable and infamous, but personally, I don’t see anything wrong with it. Everybody has the same starting position and potential effective time, it’s up to them what they’ll do with it.

I don’t play very much, I don’t have much time, and when I do, it’s not predictable, so I rarely can do dungeon runs, god forbid raids if there were any. I play here and there, in batches of an hour or so. I have invested about 20 hours in the game so far. Some guy, let’s call him Joe, has invested 400 hours, combined with OoG effort. He SHOULD have the advantage over me in EVERY aspect, not just skill-wise and knowledge-wise or fluff-wise.

Now, some say it’s catering to hardcore players. I don’t think it is. If there’s a substantial content and “carrot on a stick” for Joe, than there’s definitely ten times as much of that for me, as I have played twenty times less than Joe has. Sure, Joe can one-shot me if he wants, or kick me out of a dungeon group because he likes to do dungeons with Joe2 and Joe3. But that’s perfectly okay and normal. I mean, there are a lot of ME running around, certainly FAR, FAR more than Joes.

PvP? No problem, there still are a lot more of me running around than Joes. Skill/gear brackets? Why not.

Also, I don’t see what is wrong with comparing elements of GW2 to elements of WoW, or any other game, for that matter, MMORPG or not. “This is not WoW, stop comparing” is really a spin of an argument. I mean, if I say something like “the crafting is better in XYZ”, why should anyone say something different than “yes because blabla” or “I disagree because blablablah”? “It’s not XYZ” isn’t an argument, nor it makes a point. I know this is not XYZ, that’s why I am making the comparison in the first place:) I could even say something like “the controls are more responsive in (non-MMO) XXZ”, though that would be debatable, as the whole control system could be vastly different.

As for the endgame, I strongly believe that a MMORPG must have substantial content “after the adventure” to be considered as having the endgame.
I love quake, I have been playing it in multiplayer since quake one. The multiplayer endgame concept does not exist in this game for obvious reason – there’s no progression and there shouldn’t be. This concept is FAR from a bad concept PER SE. But, I think it’s bad in a MMORPG. And there are two ways to create the endgame in a MMORPG. First one is to create enough MEANINGFUL OR ENGAGING content (doesn’t have to be progressive) for a player to enjoy. Second one is to constantly update the game to effectively prolong the “adventure part” – progression.

WoW has both, so to speak. Now, I already hear thousand voices shouting at me with “go away, this is not WoW”))
But, let me finish, the point I am trying to make is apologetic towards GW2, not the opposite.
The important thing is WHY WoW has both. There are several reasons:
-the game exists for eight years
-the game has been developed by a very rich and powerful company
-there is an open mod policy, for mods which don’t tamper with gameplay mechanics
-developers have a habit of incorporating that mods into the game’s vanilla UI
-the game was made by a VERY popular company at the peak of interest for their warcraft universe and at the time when a quality AAA MMORPG was needed, which granted WoW a huge amount of players = money = staff = support = content = flow.
-the game had four big expansions

But the most important factor (although it’s dependant on other factors) is the eight years of existence. I mean, WoW has, like, hundred dungeons or something. That’s, like, A LOT. But it had eight years to implement them (and the number of synergetic factors with that, but let’s not complicate).

The thing is, this game is in it’s early infancy. Yes, we had beta, yes, we are in 2012. and some things should be mandatory, but still, that’s a fact. Only two months in, we have a relatively big update and anouncements about things to come, apparently very soon (arenas, for example). If the projected pace establishes, we will have a very enjoyable game relatively filled with content in a year or so. The problem is, the game needs to survive that period of infancy, while retaining players. A problem which not many games had solved, unfortunately.

That said, while I am under impression that Anet is putting constant effort in this game, I think that I need to criticize things a bit, as there are areas which are not so much dependent on gradual game development over the course of months and years.

For instance, number of dungeons and overall, lack of entry level dungeons or gradual dungeon difficulty increase or wider range of dungeon difficulty levels (with scaled rewards, of course). This is not the matter of “catering to the casuals”, no, it’s just about gradual introducing to the concept and content. The regular or hard difficulty level of dungeons should not be changed, of course.

Then, there’s the PvP. It’s UI and menu construction are terrible and there’s no excuse for that. Also, lack of game modes, maps, size of teams etc. etc. etc. I believe all that would be introduced gradually, but why THAT gradually?:) I mean, the game will SURELY lose relatively significant amount of players that way. There is a difference between “a finished product that is in it’s infancy and needs to grow and progress gradually” and a “broken beta lacking in both quality and quantity and execution and comfortability of modes”.
After all, this game is a serious AAA product and it should be regarded as such both by players and by developers.

I think this game is still in it’s early stage and should be given a chance and time, yes, even in the “classic endgame” department. Players should give it a chance to develop, as they themselves are one of the key elements that affect that development.
On the other side, developers MUST realize that they have being given that chance and not blow it. I am not saying they are sitting in their offices doing nothing, but NOW is the crunch time for them. Now is the time for investment in term of effort. The game won’t last longer if they make a MINDBLOWING patch in august, it will last longer if they make that patch in december, or even earlier. Is it possible? I don’t know, but it’s sorely needed.

Sleaze.3748:

Focksbot.6798:

Similarly, keep working hard at GW2 and you’ll become a GOOD player. Then you’ll get your reward.

Except there is currently no reward developed in the game at the moment for this. Also if you are speaking of legendary weapons… those are the epitome of grind with a road block of RNG to make things “fun” according to the devs.

PS Your analogy is also way off wack, I could name a million situations were people get rewarded for not working hard or doing something well. Try again.

That’s Naoko’s example, actually.

Show up, breathe at a decent pace and maintain a body temperature somewhere around 98 and you can get a diploma.

Schmooze the bosses you can get a raise.

Have the luck of being born into the right family, you can be rich.

etc, etc, etc.

Red Falcon.8257:

greg.3792:

Nobody LIKES grind, but we do it because it gives us the edge in PvP

This sentence sums up the real reason people wants raids & co.
They want to outgear people they can’t outskill.

I’m so happy that this will never happen in GW2.