Guild Wars 2

It’s funny that a lot of raiders in WOW claim that they raided for the sake of raiding. (B.S.)

So I suppose a lot of Ex-WOW players came to GW2 only to discover that they really raided for stat progression and bragging rights because of the gear/mounts/titles/etc. that they supposedly didn’t really care about.

It’s amazing just how rabid people become over pretty pixels. I guess it’s human nature.

Naoko.7096:

First of all, do not mix single-player RPG together with multi-player RPG.

Single-player RPG only consist of you roleplaying and the story.
Multi-player RPG consist of you roleplaying, the story, a moving world and massive people.

Players who play single-player RPG switch games after they finished the story.
Players who play multi-player RPG are dedicated to one mmo for years even after completing the story.

A multi-player RPG that has no individual progression shouldn’t call themselves a mmorpg. Sure, in single-player RPG there’s no progression because the game has ended. Yes, ended. It means “It’s time to switch to another game for my ps3”. That shouldn’t happen to a mmorpg. It’s because mmorpg is a constant world, not a frozen single-player ps3 rpg. Characters should be allowed to grow. Mmorpg is like breeding a character you role-play. Your character “age” (illiterally) the more time and efforts you put into it.

If the game is all about the player and not the avatar, it should be a mmo “player game” and not mmo “role-playing game”.

What makes people like to play mmorpg more than single-player rpg is because your character grows among with other player’s characters. If you play mmorpg with the mentality of how you play a single-player rpg, you wouldn’t know. I can see you playing it that way after you relate mmorpg and single-player rpg together.

I did not confuse single player and multiplayer RPGs. What I said was a direct response to your definition of RPG. I brought up single player RPGs, and two other MMORPGs, which you conveniently ignored, to illustrate how your definition does not speak for all RPGs. So again, your definition of what a MMORPG is only consists of your expectations. You have not authority to tell anyone what a MMORPG should be. Don’t start pointing fingers, I don’t presume that I have the authority to tell anyone what an RPG should be.

Naoko.7096:

Towards your other quote, you’re mixing “communism” and “democracy” together.
You missed the entire point.
In democratic society, at least people are rewarded with efforts.
Making effort for graduation certificate can give you a job. It’s not just cosmetic.
Making effort for promotion can give better pay and rewards. It’s not just cosmetic.
Making effort to get richer, you get richer. It’s not just cosmetic.
There’s progression and rewards for every effort you did.
The -efforts for reward- to get a job, promotions, get richer are what made it fun.
If everything is spoonfed, we can see examples from silver-spoon children who can’t satisfy themselves with anything when they have everything without efforts. That’s why in reality, silver-spoon children can never have fun in life because they have no solid goals.

Other posters have already pointed out your use of the term democracy, so I won’t harp on the issue.

However, you completely disregarded what I have said. Do you not see the leap of logic that was made to equate equality to equal wealth distribution? Do you? If you are to post a reply, please answer this question. This is the fulcrum of the issue, no amount of telling me how other economic system works actually addresses the issue.

Capitalism isn’t about effort and reward, it’s about free market. Even if capitalism is about effort and reward, that doesn’t automatically make anything that’s not like it communist?

Furthermore,

My perception?

You get a graduation certificate for being HARDWORKING and dedicated.
You get a promotion for being HARDWORKING and dedicated.
You get rich if you are HARDWORKING and dedicated.
You triumph more easily in mmorpg if you are HARDWORKING and dedicated.

How to be good? Be hardworking and dedicated.
You can’t be good without making efforts.
Before labelling others as “moronic”, tell yourself how shallow you are.

Oh wait, you can’t triump more easily in GW2 if you’re hardworking and dedicated.
So it’s not a mmorpg. GW2 should have it’s genre labelled as mmopvp or fps.

This is just so wrong. The only truth here is you can’t be good without effort and dedication. That is very different from effort and dedication equating to being good.

Ask anybody in a medical program about their class. You’d be surprised by how many hardworking and dedicated people still fail, or nearly fail. Hell, there are only 37 people left in my class of 55.

The people that cuts the grass around my neighborhood are hardworking too. And if you want to count physical labor, they work harder than me. I can tell you that they will never become rich by cutting grass all day.

Your perception is warped. Hard work is an illusion.

The reason i like having a gear grind is because i simply have too much time on my hands. Cosmestics doesn’t feel like i am accomplishing something when i raid or PvE for it.

I prefer stat gains, or additional levels or more powerful abilities as end game. But not during the leveling phase.

I was pretty bum out at level 60 that i had unlocked all my abilities and felt leveling further was not any much fun, since there was no new abilities to unlock after aquiring enough skill points.

But yea, i have a lot of time on my hands, so i enjoy my end game to bring more options, powers, stats, and stronger growth.

If i didn’t have lots of time in my hands, i would be a casual, and probably wouldn’t care enough about end game because other real life rewards would be awaiting for me.

That’s just my 2 cents.

greg, without reading all 7 pages of replies I must say you’re one wise man, based on how you voiced your opinion. No whining no beaotching, just straight up facts about how you feel.

If developers could linearly interpolate between 0 reward and at least SOME reward for grinding I think It would be great, no matter how much I personally hate repetitive action myself. I mean even if theres %1 of improvement over a disproportionate amount of time, that itself would be great imo. I cant compare this to daoc which pretty much set standards for Elite quality MMO pvp, but if theres some, no matter how small advantages we could gain by putting in lots and lots of extra time It would be GREAT… this is coming from pvp veteran who hates PVE btw. IE make maxed out PVP ranks like 1/10 as effective as maxed out daoc rvrers vs noobs… that itself will be reward enough.

@Doolio Definitely appreciate your post and it actually made me realize that I am more in your shoes than I am compared to most players. I never have the best gear and have died in Aion god knows how many times to players better geared than I. Sure I do believe gear in some games plays too much of a role or gives too much of an advantage, but i think there is plenty of room to give players something to work for and earn without giving anyone the ability to one shot another player.

Also, its a game… dying to me is fun as it provides a good challenge. Right now I almost never die in a 1v1 and I have completely lost that sense of excitement and nervousness that I would get in other MMOs playing against well geared players.

Do you guys believe ANet will break up their promise and go to completely different direction since they start the company cause even Guild Wars One there is no gear threadmills in the game, gears in GW1 is also aesthetic.
- I can see lot of you guys quit GW2 bacause it never offer gear threadmills that you want and that moment the game will left people who don’t mind the aspect of the game, and this thread that you all whining will be gone with the wind.
- In Addition, GW2 do has gear grind like other MMORPG game, but the differnet is it has the limited max gears (level 80 Exotic is the max gears), unlike other tradition MMORPG there are no max gear you have to grind endlessly to get the max stats.
- So let imagine if ANet overturn their philosophy, break their promise and implement gear threadmills in to GW2
- which mean there are gears set beyond level 80 Exotic and Legendary, so I named it Legendary tier 1,2,3,4,5,…,x (I assume)
- At some point when you get Legendary tier x which mean you come to outgear more than the content of the game (even down scaling wouldnt solve the issue). Outgear players will have less challenge in the game, they hardly die, they easily kill the mobs and bosses
- WvWvW become worse than it is today, it will become completely unbalanced massive PVP game. We have zerg army in WvWvW is bad, now we have zerg army with superior gears
- In the next step there will have some people wil whine that there is no content for people who have tier X gears.
- So it’s mean ANet have to push the new contents for Tier x gears players, so other people who have under gear must grind to get Tier X gears if they want to get to the new contents.
- And Wah-Lah we have another WoW-Clone game with better graphic like you guys want to.

- Don’t get me wrong I see this game has the flaws and it need more character progression at end game. But there are a lot of progressions (such as reputation and honor grinding, player housing, guild housing, QPs in tournament) that can make players keep playing by having no affect to stats progression.
- IMO the main problem is GW2 lack of ranking system, armory that make people know how achivement we got, what trophies we got, what set of gears we collect (Wardrobe system). Also I think is lack of varied attribute on gears, the set of stats number in gears are too constant.

I don’t think in terms of gear treadmill per se, I think more in terms of “everything and anything”.

To clarify what I mean – let’s imagine that we have some scale that defines how a game is doing in terms of “what to do after the adventure”. As a MMORPG it should be an ongoing experience of opportunities and stuff to do. Like I said, there are roughly two ways to do this, by making conceptual and structured progression or by making sheer quantity of content which doesn’t have to be progression based, but provides activity.

I said WoW’s got both, but I also said it’s an eight year old AAA juggernaut that had four massive expansions, so it’s not really fair to bring it into discussion about “stuff to do” with a game that got out two months ago.

That said, let’s imagine a MMORPG called Magical potato:)
Magical potato has a relatively small map, five dungeons, three professions and a couple of hundred quests. It also has structured content that can be finished in a week. Also, it has absolutely no gear treadmill. But the worst part is, it doesn’t have ANY content updates, just bug fixes. But it scores 8 out of 10 on our imaginary “what to do after adventure” scale. Why?
-30 pvp maps
-bunch of pvp modes – ctf, domination, arenas, team deathmatch, 1v1, conquest, a couple of new modes which we haven’t seen before etc.
-all of the modes are laddered
-all of the modes are accessible in the casual random queue mode also
-there are different tiers of competitions, also different kinds of competitions
-there are also UNBELIEVABLY customizable tournaments – duration of matches, scoring system, map rotation, gear allowance, level requirements, prize distribution etc.
-there are pvp points – they don’t need to provide anything that affects the game mechanics, you can, for instance, receive honorable titles or “glowing-particles dagger of bad MF” with a good performance.

So, Magical potato is a game with great endgame content and can provide YEARS of fun for it’s players. It has 3 out of 10 in a lot of aspects on our scale, but it scores a whopping 12 out of 10 for an end game non-progression based content, both in quality and quantity.

We could imagine another example, some opposite kind of game. We’ll call it Secret of banana:)
Secret of banana also scores high on our scale. That’s odd, as it lacks all the things which make Magical potato endure years without adding content. Also, it too has no gear treadmill, or content updates. But, let’s see what it provides:
-HUGE map. The map of this scale has yet to be seen in video game industry.
-40 000 quests and events, that scale with level of player doing them, also providing vanity titles and items
-150 dungeons with variable difficulty, accessible through the automatic queue tool, which has flawless and informational interface.
-15 crafting professions with 500 hard to obtain levels each, requiring player to roam the world and/or trade items and materials to progress. Professions give money and prestige to the players, also vanity high level items and titles.
-200 player levels, with every level requiring more time to obtain

So, Secret of banana has virtually no pvp and caters more to the pve crowd. It also has a very weak structured progressive endgame. But, it shines in the size department. It would take players months and months to explore the map, it would take them years to do quests (which are scalable, remember), years to do dungeons etc.

We could have a third game here, Staff of eternity. Staff of eternity has small size, small amount of content, small amount of grind… it is a game where you have seen everything it has to offer in two months. But, wait. It has ONE thing:)
-constant progressive content updates. You have seen the game in two months, but what’s that? Two new dungeons, level cap increased, 30 quests added, small region added and a set of MILDLY stronger drops. See you in two months!

EDIT: CONTINUATION AFTER NAOKO’S POST
We posted in the same time:)

CJAncients.6907

However, you completely disregarded what I have said. Do you not see the leap of logic that was made to equate equality to equal wealth distribution? Do you? If you are to post a reply, please answer this question. This is the fulcrum of the issue, no amount of telling me how other economic system works actually addresses the issue.

To answer to your question: Well, you don’t seems to grasp why some people are saying they feel this game is a communism version of mmorpg. Do you know the reason why Joseon was split into North and South Korea? It’s because both leaders have different ideology.

The South believes that everyone should be equally and fairly rewarded from their efforts. The more you make effort in life, the more you’re rewarded. There are “classes” that still regards everyone as equal, but the people who make more efforts reap more rewards than another.

However, North believes everyone should be equal no matter what. They do not want to make, “The richer become richer, the poorer become poorer”. Everyone lead the same life. They diminish all the “classes” so that there’re no one who can be higher than another. That’s where the equal wealth distribution comes in. The people who are suppose to earn more, have to distribute their wealth to the poor. There’re no “rewards” if people make extra efforts in life because they still end up the same as those who doesn’t make effort to feed themselves. This punishes the dedicated and hardworking ones while benefits the people who doesn’t want to make effort for themselves.

I’ve been to South Korea before, I heard of their economies situation between North and South. Do you know how bad North Korea economy is? Their system of distributing wealth equally promotes a certain kind of mentality. A mentality that “Why should I make effort in life? I will still be fed by people who earns more. Their wealth are being distributed to me. I don’t have to be afraid of being outclassed by them too.” With this kind of mentality spread to people, no one feels motivated to make effort in life since everyone are equally rewarded with and without efforts. This make their civilians to laze around with no goals. When it’s people doesn’t work hard, their country falls in economy. The people loses every motivations because they have no goals. They put a stop to the people’s individual growth.

If relate the above paragraph to mmorpg, it will be the same. Players who make extra efforts are downscaled to the same as very casual players. This game emphasizes equality very much. There’re no higher or lower class of players in gw2. During end-game, people who make extra efforts on their avatars (not extra efforts on themselves since they’re role-playing the avatar) will still end up the same as exotic geared avatars. There is no growth on individual avatars. Dedicated players loses motivations to grind because it won’t make them grow. It’s very much like the nature of communism. The people there never grows. There’s no point making more effort because they will still be equal.

CJAncients.6907

This is just so wrong. The only truth here is you can’t be good without effort and dedication. That is very different from effort and dedication equating to being good.

You sounded as if only people who’re born talented will be rewarded while being dedicated ones will never reaps reward. That’s wrong. People who continue to strive hard and never give up will eventually get the reward. It’s the same with people who still continue to study hard despite failing, will still pass if make efforts.

I agree that not everyone who works hard will be rewarded. We can see that nature in mmorpgs that people who work hard doesn’t mean they can get a boss drop gear. However, if they’re very dedicated and continue to work towards it, play smart and be with guilds, they will eventually get what they wanted. All the processes of efforts are the one that makes it fun. Have you heard of the analogy “Light comes from darkness”?Also, this promotes guild cause. People wants to bond with guildmates. They go through challenging times together. They achieve something together. That’s what make good memories in mmorpg. That nature very lacking here in gw2 because of the current structure.
—-
I recommend people to find and watch this Japanese anime to realise what is lacking as a mmorpg. Trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv8u5bY8Now

I watched it because it’s currently one of the top viewers anime here this season. It really shows how single-player rpg and mmorpg give different experiences and different types of leisures. (Gw2 gives leisure of a single-player rpg.) There’s constant growth of individual players. It also shows how people who’re dedicated and know how to play through it, reap rewards. It shows how both skills and dedications are both equally important.

The point I am trying to make is that GW2 will have to have SOMETHING. It has no gear treadmill, ok, no problem, the game is based more on an equal ground pvp and as for pve, it revovles around exploration. Also, it’s grind niche is about vanity stuff. Nothing wrong with that. Also, the game is new, so it doesn’t have loads of stuff, maps, dungeons etc. That is ok too, it will surely get updated and expanded with time.

BUT (and this is a big BUT), for a full released AAA title, it simply has to do better in some or all or any of the mentioned or not mentioned areas. All taken into consideration.
I am not talking about things like Secret of banana’s 40 000 quests or Magical potato’s 15 pvp match modes. Let’s look at some things, pvp for example:
-how many match modes there is?
-how many maps there is?
-look at the pvp GUI – team/enemy/match info and stuff
-look at the pvp lobby interface
-look at the scoreboard, match stats etc.
Those are things that SHOULD be at least at the solid level (and solid quantity) at the time of release of the game of this caliber. Those things are simply bad now. I think this is an honest, objective assessment. Of course, it’s how I see things, but I really think it could be said it’s a fact.
And those are mostly stuff that are in the code so to speak. I mean, you don’t need months of beta testing and balancing and implementing mini-codes and scripts to have, for example, a wonderful, informational, category-heavy scoreboard or end-match screen with bunch of stats and kitten… It’s not new stuff, the game certainly knows how many 100b’s have I done, for example. Those things are important, no matter they may look unimportant. I really felt I was playing some alpha release of a B grade TPS. That’s something basic for an AAA title.
For example, balance is something different. It’s a neverending ongoing process and I am perfectly fine with that. But these things, these seemingly little things mean A LOT.

Now, I may have digressed here an there, but the bottom line is, a game HAS to have bunch of meaningful and substantial content. Furthermore, the technical level of that content has to be GREAT in an AAA game.
For example, admiring landscape is not meaningful and substantial (doesn’t matter if someone likes to do it or not, that’s not the point), it’s supportive content. On the other hand, pvp is substantial and meaningful content, but it’s far from great, to put it extremely mildly.

I do say, the game is in it’s infancy, but still. I will give it a chance, a BIG chance. But the developers have to recognize that chance and acknowledge it. And they have to do it quickly. I mean, I am certain that relatively high percentage of players won’t give that big a chance to this game, and, sadly, rightly so. Some percentage of those players will come back in a year when the game “reaches it’s 1.00 state”, but that percentage, I think, is minimal.

The good thing is, I see constant developer activity. I hope it won’t be the case of too little, too late. Or worse, taking the wrong concept (like Blizzard did with Diablo).

p.s.
I have come across the argument “this is a niche game” many times. Well, in my opinion, this mustn’t be a niche game (at least not in that regard – having a loyal small community). I am not saying about personal preferences, I am saying about economy and level of production. This is a serious AAA game that is trying to target a lot of customers/players.
It can be a niche game in a sense of targeting certain large chunk of MMO players. For example, it’s niche could be “pvp MMORPG type” or “vanity based grind MMORPG type” etc. But it simply can’t allow itself to be too narrow.

you made very good posts @Doolio. I just hope the same thing as you are.

(don’t worry that @Naoko’s post hinder your full article, I just ignore his post cause communism and single-player rpg and mmorpg comparison is seems absurd to me)

This whole discussion kind of blows my mind.

You’ve got the table split in half consisting of those who want more variety and depth in PvE when it comes to loot and having something to grind for, or rather work for. Something worthwhile, something fun.

The whole argument of fairness is starting to confuse me. Those who are, god forbid I use the term casual, seem to be more aimed at the game being “fun”, who often say that this is how GW2 is, so deal with it, how they wanted it to be.

Really GW2 is an MMO that was advertised and well-received by a big audience, more than than just those who were into GW1. I’ve seen few posts where people are actually demanding the game be changed to exactly like WoW. I haven’t read this, so much as people just asking for more variety and depth in PvE.

It seems as though some “casuals” are acting dare I say, snobby, in their ivory towers with regards to this whole thing. Who’s to say what this game should have in terms of what one has to work for. There are many different types of players, why should the door swing just one way? Why must people be so dramatic about what others have to do if they enjoy what they’re doing regardless of what else exists.

If you enjoy cosmetics and what the game currently offers, why would loot tables ruin your day? I really don’t understand this. The whole cosmetic approach.

No variety/more choices may work for X many of players, but the other side of the table it may not work for. Why must it be one way or the other? It seems to boil down to jealousy and in some way spite. Does it really harm you if there is more variety in PvE and more to work for than cosmetics (which ironically in some cases require heaps of real money or actual grinding to recieve.) It harms no one.

It just creates this petty battle between “casuals” and “hardcore players”, which really is just a load of BS and jealousy over feeling equal, below or above someone else. What the game offers and how a person chooses to play should not be about this.

Battousai.7586:

Curlybaby.6258:

I think your answer is in your thread title.

There is a grind but it IS for fluff.

… and the edge in PvP are your superior skills.

I enjoyed 1 shotting with Ambush, or immortal tanking on a disc priest. fluff is cute and all but it will hardly keep any “hardcore” players. You dont feel more superior with a fluffier weapon.

I know this is off topic. But I just had to point this out cause it made me chuckle.

Backstab Thieves and Bunker Guardians.

Sadly I have been seeing guild wars be referred to as the communist MMO a lot lately and not just around here. Having that sort of reputation could be detrimental.

If anet is smart they will appeal to both groups of people by implementing regions of the game that take gear into account and regions that don’t. Oh wait they did that already, and everyone is exactly a like in both those areas. I feel like I’m playing this game with a bunch of clones at times, so bland.

Doolio.1865:

I am a very, VERY casual player:) I say that because I don’t want anybody to think I have some ulterior motives behind this post:)

I don’t understand why skill/gear/fluffiness/achievement/vanity/power/content gap would be a bad thing in a MMORPG. If someone is playing ten hours a day and invests effort in googling, practicing and playing, he should get better payoff than me, in EVERY aspect. It’s perfectly logical. It makes for a diverse environment and there’s a content for everybody.

Thank you for this post.

You worded it very well. I don’t see how anyone can argue with this, but they do anyways. These invisible classes of players that claim they’re just in it for the fun, yet get butthurt whenever there’s something they can’t or won’t attain is just silly.

This is a video game, and it’s a simple premise that there are different types of players.

And to all the people saying “Well, GW2 made it perfectly clear that this game…”

Where to? I saw awesome advertisements for this game and vague descriptions. I think people are just whipping this stuff up out of thin air to justify these petty arguments.

Amadeuz.4617:

you made very good posts @Doolio. I just hope the same thing as you are.

(don’t worry that @Naoko’s post hinder your full article, I just ignore his post cause communism and single-player rpg and mmorpg comparison is seems absurd to me)

Hm? In what way that my post hindered Doolio full article?
My post was a reply to CJAncients.6907 because he asked for my answer/reply about the relation between communism and this mmorpg. Try not to judge other’s post as “absurd” when you didn’t even read or know “who is replying to who”. -_-

In fact, I share the same view as Doolio.

Doolio.1865:

It can be a niche game in a sense of targeting certain large chunk of MMO players. For example, it’s niche could be “pvp MMORPG type” or “vanity based grind MMORPG type” etc. But it simply can’t allow itself to be too narrow.

I very much agree with this. When the game was advertised as a revolutionised mmorpg and claim to caters towards all kind of players, it’s simply misleading. Like he said, it’s niche can’t be too narrow.

Doolio.1865:

For example, balance is something different. It’s a neverending ongoing process and I am perfectly fine with that. But these things, these seemingly little things mean A LOT.

Now, I may have digressed here an there, but the bottom line is, a game HAS to have bunch of meaningful and substantial content. Furthermore, the technical level of that content has to be GREAT in an AAA game.

For example, admiring landscape is not meaningful and substantial (doesn’t matter if someone likes to do it or not, that’s not the point), it’s supportive content. On the other hand, pvp is substantial and meaningful content, but it’s far from great, to put it extremely mildly.

“A game HAS to have bunch of meaningful and substantial content. Furthermore, the technical level of that content has to be GREAT in an AAA game.”

Thank you. Yeah, I agree with this. The little things they removed (like progression), actually means alot. If the game removes those elements, they should replace it with other bunch of meaningful and substantial content. The little things they removes hurts a group of players while rewards another group of players. There’s a big void in the current state of this game when it’s supposed to be a AAA game.

As I mentioned way before in first few pages.
I’ll quote what I posted in the first page.

If gear grinding isn’t feasible, there’re many ways to give players a proper end-game. Having only grind for gear cosmetics isn’t an end-game. Since all other mmos have both cosmetic+gear progressions, it cut down gw2’s cosmetic end-game effectiveness by a large amount. Cosmetics are just secondary in most mmo. It’s the reason why many players feel there’s no carrot. Therefore, I hope the devs create an end-game that sustain players.

I heard in the future, gw2 is going to have housings. If that’s the case, they have a very good opportunity to add the end-game/carrot into this. My suggestion: To build the house and furnitures, players must grind for the materials (chop woods, hire builders). After the house is built, they can customise it to their likings. Players can compare how big or small and how beautiful their house is with each other from their efforts. They can also acquire trophy from bosses and showcase it in their shelves. Every week, there’s an update for house furnitures catalogue. They can have many variety of it. Players constant desire to grind for mats to upgrade their houses, buy/craft furnitures, paint etc. Some of the materials are drop in dungeons. Making it mandatory to have guildmates to build/upgrade houses are good too. (It helps bonding and promotes the purpose of having a guild.) Remember that joyful experiences comes from the efforts we make. People appreciate something from efforts. If everything is spoonfed, there’s no fun in it. This is a good example of keeping players sustain and feeling anticipated every week. It’s what a mmo should be.

To other readers, try not to be affected/insulted when some of us refer the game to have very communism element. It’s not something degradatory. It’s a form of expression of what some of us (affected by the cons greatly) feel about this game’s nature. It may affect us, but not you because everyone has different playstyle.

My negative feedbacks, are just negative feedbacks based on my personal opinion.
It’s not degradatory. I just want to clarify it up since people mistaken me as if I’m insulting them. >_<

Edit: Well, to prove that I still love this game. I made this few days ago.
http://imageshack.us/a/img526/2668/kuronekobanner.jpg

This is my avatar whom I placed alot of dedication and love towards.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-endgame-reimagined/

In the past, we’ve talked about how in Guild Wars 2 we designed the game to avoid a common problem in many MMOs: grinding through chunks of boring, repetitive content to get to the occasional pockets of fun. With Guild Wars 2, we wanted the entire gameplay experience to be something that players enjoyed, regardless of how much time they could dedicate.

You are wellcome.

“Cezton.2415
Doolio.1865:
I am a very, VERY casual player:) I say that because I don’t want anybody to think I have some ulterior motives behind this post:)
I don’t understand why skill/gear/fluffiness/achievement/vanity/power/content gap would be a bad thing in a MMORPG. If someone is playing ten hours a day and invests effort in googling, practicing and playing, he should get better payoff than me, in EVERY aspect. It’s perfectly logical. It makes for a diverse environment and there’s a content for everybody.
Thank you for this post.
You worded it very well. I don’t see how anyone can argue with this, but they do anyways. These invisible classes of players that claim they’re just in it for the fun, yet get butthurt whenever there’s something they can’t or won’t attain is just silly.
This is a video game, and it’s a simple premise that there are different types of players.
And to all the people saying “Well, GW2 made it perfectly clear that this game…”
Where to? I saw awesome advertisements for this game and vague descriptions. I think people are just whipping this stuff up out of thin air to justify these petty arguments.”

I think at this point its pot calling kettle black. Both sides including yourself refuse to see the others point. This game from day 1 has been advertised as the competitive mmo that sets precedents by keeping people at equal lvls through their adjusting system. heck “All characters are on even footing in both kinds of competitive play. Players use their regular characters, but everyone is adjusted to the maximum so that all characters are roughly equal in power.” is pulled straight from their website on it.

So with that in mind no gear should not come to play as a magical i win button. Honestly theres no sub here. Youre mentality of gear grind can perfectly fit in with a grind based game and still play this game for the pvp or whatever. They don’t need to radically change the concept of this game to fit the vocal minority crying that this isnt “insert grind / raid based game here”.

Games like DAoC, Shadowbane, GW1, UO have all shown they don’t need a set gear based carrot to keep players playing. Ladders, tracking, pvp goals are enough of a target for a game like this. Just because this isn’t the rising star to replace the rediculous time sink that is wow or eq2 does not make this game sub par or need to adjust its style.

And just because, oh my gosh, you failed to read what was happening in the game, bought into the wow killer hype, or just plain hate games that dont force you to play the game like a full time job does not mean that this game needs to change to support you. The games made, its hit its audience, maybe just maybe thats not you?

No we aren’t butt hurt that you’re whining about not having the ability to out gear and smack all people around due to your insane amount of free time. We are complaining that you think just because the game isn’t built for your style of play that it should be changed to fit you and screw over the player base that knew and loved the idea that this game represents. The selfish, snyde, and rediculous comments i see are mainly coming from the player base that wants to rewrite what this games aim is and cant seem to understand that. I can’t stand WoW’s endgame im not complaining in their forums to rewrite the game to meet my needs. Instead i came to this game that fits perfectly with what i want to accomplish now that DAoC is dead. Maybe instead of asking for a game to change completely to suit your needs, find a game that already fits your needs and enjoy. There’s enough amazing high quality mmo’s out now we dont need to be demanding one changes to fit us when theres already another that does. This isn’t 2001….

Cocokachu.7920:

No we aren’t butt hurt that you’re whining about not having the ability to out gear and smack all people around due to your insane amount of free time. We are complaining that you think just because the game isn’t built for your style of play that it should be changed to fit you and screw over the player base that knew and loved the idea that this game represents. The selfish, snyde, and rediculous comments i see are mainly coming from the player base that wants to rewrite what this games aim is and cant seem to understand that. I can’t stand WoW’s endgame im not complaining in their forums to rewrite the game to meet my needs. Instead i came to this game that fits perfectly with what i want to accomplish now that DAoC is dead. Maybe instead of asking for a game to change completely to suit your needs, find a game that already fits your needs and enjoy. There’s enough amazing high quality mmo’s out now we dont need to be demanding one changes to fit us when theres already another that does. This isn’t 2001….

Who says that I have insane amounts of free time? Because I don’t.

I already stated that I’m between a casual and a hardcore if I was to ever throw myself into a category. You’re acting like this game was molded in stone solely for people like yourself, which is a no different attitude than what you’re calling out in haste.

The coin can go both ways, friend. No where did I demand the game to be changed to suit my needs, only did I offer suggestions surrounding certain loot tables, or surrounding certain features such as chests. I hear what you’re saying, but just because you vehemently believe that this game need cater to your specific audience, you have to grow up to the fact that people other than your audience will play this game.

I very much enjoy this game. I love the experience of leveling up, and I truly do enjoy things like jumping puzzles, various achievements and helping my friends get through this game. I’m not totally fussy on dungeons but I don’t mind them, and I love the PvP aspect of this game, so before you tell me to find another game, I’m going to stop you and tell you: No. I’m not going to find another game just yet.

I’m saying that there are others like me who would like to see a few more rewards in this game, or rather the quality of the current rewards improved for more variation, and to add to a more sound environment. I don’t want to change the entire game, but I would like to see various areas of this game improved upon.

I’ll let you know when this game feels like it totally isn’t for me, but at the moment it feels like it has the potential to be if they do plan to add a bit more depth.

There is one thing i can’t understand. Why “hardcore” players need gear grinding ?
For pvp ?
If you are good you will eventually kill all weaker players anyway (dont’t need outgear them).
If you want compete with other “hardcores”, they, at some point will have same grinded gear as you.
At this moment with even gear you can kill weaker players in seconds.
With better gear you will be able to one-shot whole parties or annihilate 20 people with two AoEs ?
For pve?
To fight stronger bosses for better gear, repeat until you got gear with + 10000000 stats ? Or you just like to see big numbers on your hero screen ?

Played several mmo games in my life. Never had much time to grind so i was always one-two shoted in pvp. With max lvl and nothing to do in pvp (no chance at all regardless of skill) i was usualy quiting game.
Do you know what “hardcores” were doing in pvp maps then ? Nothing. Pvp maps were deserted. 90% of one-shoted players never ever returned to pvp. 10% become “hardcores”.

On the other hand i do understand, that some people haven’t got anything to do after one month playing.
So for me NO for OP gear in pvp, YES for OP gear in pve.

edjahman.9104:

It’s funny that a lot of raiders in WOW claim that they raided for the sake of raiding. (B.S.)

So I suppose a lot of Ex-WOW players came to GW2 only to discover that they really raided for stat progression and bragging rights because of the gear/mounts/titles/etc. that they supposedly didn’t really care about.

It’s amazing just how rabid people become over pretty pixels. I guess it’s human nature.

All people who would say that they were not really sucesfull on raiding for some reason ( nubs, too casual etc ) and now a beatifully crafted MMO is giving them a chance to get to any content. There is no elitism, no PRIMADONNAS. Which is… good or bad. Depends what group of players I you belong to. If you casual you going to leave this game soon anyways as you may have done before few times. If you dedicated you will not find enough motivation to play for long because there is no real carrot.
Referning with communism is not really inaccurate btw.

Cezton.2415:

This whole discussion kind of blows my mind.

What blows my mind are the people who insist that what they find fun is the definition of fun.

What they personally enjoy.

Guess what? Not everyone finds the same thing as fun. No one is claiming that you don’t enjoy that, what we are saying is that this game was specifically designed for people who do not find that fun and want an MMO without a gear grind.

I can’t stand American Football, but I would not claim that it’s not fun – I’d say that I don’t find it fun, it’s my own personal opinion. I wouldn’t claim that I know whether the fans of the sport find it fun, or that my personal preference is the right answer and everyone elses is wrong.

:edit:

Nor would I demand it get changed to be a clone of some other sport.

Jestunhi.7429:

Cezton.2415:

This whole discussion kind of blows my mind.

What blows my mind are the people who insist that what they find fun is the definition of fun.

What they personally enjoy.

Guess what? Not everyone finds the same thing as fun. No one is claiming that you don’t enjoy that, what we are saying is that this game was specifically designed for people who do not find that fun and want an MMO without a gear grind.

I can’t stand American Football, but I would not claim that it’s not fun – I’d say that I don’t find it fun, it’s my own personal opinion. I wouldn’t claim that I know whether the fans of the sport find it fun, or that my personal preference is the right answer and everyone elses is wrong.

:edit:

Nor would I demand it get changed to be a clone of some other sport.

If you wanted to be a profesional player you would choose a discipline that gives you fun and reward you wish to get. It is all about choosing.

I’m really happy that there is no gear treadmill. Burnt out on that a long time ago.

I like the philosophy of not having a gear advantage in pvp. It promotes learning to play well as a group instead of relying on OP gear stats.

Sleaze.3748:

Sadly I have been seeing guild wars be referred to as the communist MMO a lot lately and not just around here. Having that sort of reputation could be detrimental.

Anyone with any intelligence would treat a remark like “This is a communist MMO!” with the derision it deserves.

Naoko.7096:

The South believes that everyone should be equally and fairly rewarded from their efforts. The more you make effort in life, the more you’re rewarded.

This is not what happens in South Korea, or, in fact, any country in the world. With good reason – it would be idiotic. Imagine giving the most money to the person who makes the biggest pig’s ear out of a simple task instead of doing it efficiently.

“Hey, boss, I did those reports you asked for.”
“Great. Put them on my desk.”

“Hey, boss, due to incompetency in language, maths and basic reasoning and using a giant pencil (for the extra challenge), it took me five months to do those reports you asked for.”
“Good God, man! Have a $10,000 bonus!”

Naoko, as an extra to CJ’s post above, let me spell this out for you again. A real ‘krazy kommunist’ MMORPG would:

• Restrict the amount of time people could spend on it to stop them become wealthier in gold or karma than anyone else.
• Handicap those who win too often to make sure they lose more.
• Hand out upgrades to those who lose too often to make sure they win more.

You sounded as if only people who’re born talented will be rewarded while being dedicated ones will never reaps reward.

Talent has little to do with it. Skill and ability can be won through hard work, but you have to work hard at improving, not just treading water.

Let’s go back to the athletes analogy. Athletes train themselves to be better athletes. They don’t just kick a football at a wall 50 times or jump the same distance every day and pretend they should be rewarded for it.

Games like DAoC, Shadowbane, GW1, UO have all shown they don’t need a set gear based carrot to keep players playing

Sigh..people really have to stop saying that DaoC, Shadowbane and UO didnt have character progression and gear treadmill.

DaoC had ALOT of character progression, realm abilities etc, and spellcrafted gear anyone? who didnt try to get over 100% taking the risk on the item exploding, just to get a little bit more stats? It wasent a huge thing, but people still spent years to maximise their characters stats.
UO runecrafting? setbonuses?

greg.3792:

I played MMOs for the last 15 years.

The one thing, assuming the MMO was good, that kept me at it was the grind.

Nobody LIKES grind, but we do it because it gives us the edge in PvP or PvE.

GW2 has no grind e.g. PvP its all balanced like a FP shooter.

I cant really decide whether I like that fact or not. On the one hand I like how I can take a month off and join PvP and know it will be balanced.

On the other hand I like working towards something, I like the carrot because I cant resist it.

I dont know what the answer is, I think GW2 was a superbly designed game and I really do enjoy it.

But for some reason I am not ‘compelled’ to play it because there is no carrot.

Go figure. I don’t have the answers.

Fair enough. But I think you have to ask yourself “is chasing the carrot even fun or are you doing it because the game is exploiting a part of your brain urge you to keep on playing?” (cough WoW cough ough) You just mentioned yourself “nobody likes the grind.” So if nobody likes it, why should it even be implemented in the first place? A game is supposed to be fun, everything else is bad game design. That’s why GW2 has removed that “need” to grind for better stats. I guess that would feel uncomfortable for players so conditioned by the gear grind.

CJAncients.6907:

Naoko.7096:

To answer to your question: Well, you don’t seems to grasp why some people are saying they feel this game is a communism version of mmorpg.

Oh, I understand what communism is, and why people would say that. The fact is the analogy is completely wrong, ridiculous, and laughable. You continue to ignore that leap of logic. Like I said before, no amount of telling me how communism works will change how wrong the analogy is, the lack of understanding regarding communism, and the leap of logic that was made.

Let me tell you why again.

Communism an economic model that involves equal distribution of wealth. You can say that in a communist society, everyone gets equal rewards. That is true. However, equality does not make communism. There are various aspects of capitalist societies that involve equality.

You are taking part of a whole and treating it as the whole. That’s where the analogy went wrong, where the leap of logic was made..

If you found it “completely wrong, ridiculous and laughable”, that is because you either couldn’t link it or you link something totally unrelated to what I linked. I won’t force you to understand the connection but don’t refute when you couldn’t even link it by yourself.

You know that the same analogy from me and others was about the culture right?
Do you even really know what’s the culture inside a communist country?

Culture of communism: No progression among people. No outclassing. Many more.
GW2: No progression among avatars. No outgearing. Many more.

If you don’t know anything about the culture of communism (how it’s people live their days, their developed mentality influenced from environment and behavior), you will never get to the point nor realise it’s logic. You will only end up endlessly sharing it’s definition of the word from dictionary. Instead of wasting time by endlessly trying to refute my posts, go to the library and find real cultural books. Look up books that talk about culture of the countries that practice communism instead of trying too hard to claim mine to be a leap of logic from just it’s definition. (I don’t know how many times you tried to emphasize it as a leap of logic in these 2 days of discussion.)

Focksbot.6798:

Naoko, as an extra to CJ’s post above, let me spell this out for you again. A real ‘krazy kommunist’ MMORPG would:

• Restrict the amount of time people could spend on it to stop them become wealthier in gold or karma than anyone else.
• Handicap those who win too often to make sure they lose more.
• Hand out upgrades to those who lose too often to make sure they win more.

That’s your own perception of a communist mmorpg. The perception that me and some others have simply different which others can’t force to change.

Your perception isn’t wrong since it can be look that way too.
There’s nothing wrong with your perception too. I respect you for sharing.

Focksbot.6798:

Talent has little to do with it. Skill and ability can be won through hard work, but you have to work hard at improving, not just treading water.

Let’s go back to the athletes analogy. Athletes train themselves to be better athletes. They don’t just kick a football at a wall 50 times or jump the same distance every day and pretend they should be rewarded for it.

You are not wrong and I agree with you.
Our analogy clashes because we’re both relating our analogies towards different subjects.

Your analogies and describing skills only applies to the human players in mmo.
My analogies and describing the progressions only applies to the avatars in mmorpg.

Both analogies are different and can never be compared, but both of us are right.

“On the other hand I like working towards something, I like the carrot because I cant resist it.”

There are compromises we could talk about. I created a thread specifically to discuss possible ‘carrots’ that aren’t gear grind, or at least one suggestion:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Endgame-diplomacy-what-about-special-achievements/first#post524336

It would gladden my heart immensely if all the people currently complaining that they need ‘progression’ could turn their minds towards creatively thinking about new kinds of progression and fulfilment, away from the cul de sac of the gear grind.

Tiered gear progression in this game is just not going to work. I don’t know how many people have noticed this or not but the combat in this game has moved passed standing in place and hitting a key to roll a set of invisible dice and winning the day because the stats on your gear made the dice roll in your favor.

GW2 combat is more about skill, dodging attacks, timing and damage mitigation. If you want to be OP on the battlefield you need to practice. Actual player skill is more of a factor then in most other MMO’s I’ve played and this looks like it’s becoming the new trend.

Gear progression endgame mechanics have too many flaws to be particle for a long running MMO. We don’t have to look any farther then WoW to find them.

If your building a MMO where the only place you can go really massive and be guaranteed a critical mass of players at the same power range and then introduce an element like gear progression to divide them, you end up with a disparity in power range and an inability to go truly massive with your content. In the end you have a community obsessed by gear with tools to determine who is worthy to play with based on the gear on their back……not a great way to go for a MMO.

Tiered gear means tiered content, progression becomes a façade as you’re just grinding one level of content to get to the same level of power as the next tiered content that nullifies your gains, only to start the process over again.

With each expansion your gear gains are nullified again as level caps are raised and fast paths to the relevant gear sets are put in for new players or players returning to the game …. WoW players refer to these as welfare epics.

GW2 has brought a number of well thought out mechanics to the MMO genre to make a truly “Massive” gaming experience to players, it’s not about being communist, fair or carebear. Removing the trinity, Events instead of quests, scaling players to content, giving each player a combat rez and removing the gear ladders are all part of an effort to cement as many players possible together to take on common goals.

I ‘m all for long term goals and achievements armor skins, weapon skins, mounts, guild halls, Air Ships, all of these can be seen as a forms of achievements and progression that can be just as meaningful as making a digit increase on a piece of armor.

IMHO putting in a Tiered gear system would be completely counterproductive to GW2 core mechanics.

krieb.6039:

I’m really happy that there is no gear treadmill. Burnt out on that a long time ago.

I like the philosophy of not having a gear advantage in pvp. It promotes learning to play well as a group instead of relying on OP gear stats.

That is perfectly fine. BUT, it’s just an empty principle which NEEDS to be filled with content, the game has to offer something, “meaningful and substantial”. Like the imaginary games I have mentioned. We have quake-like dynamic no-mechanical advantage pvp. That sounds cool. BUT
-we have 4 (four) maps
-we have 1 (one) game mode
-we have attrocious GUI, uninformative screens and scoreboards, party info/screen etc.

So we have the key aspect of the game pretty kittened. I mean, that’s irresponsible, to say the least.

As for the gear treadmill, look at it like this: it’s a game element. GW2 lacks that element – on purpose. That’s fine, it defines the game and developers took their route. But, it doesn’t matter whether that’s positive or negative thing – it’s still the case of missing element. That element has to be replaced with another element “of same value”, to add to the overall game value. OR, alternatively, the game has to absolutely excel in other elements.

A VERY simplified example:
Look at Quake 3. For the sake of simplicity, we’ll say it has just one element – “pvp”. But it’s absolutely brilliant in that matter and that one element is enough to keep the value of the game pretty high.

I think that people are trying to say this, more than they want gear treadmill specifically. GW2 can be either a broad game or more of a niche game. In either case, something big-ish has to happen pretty soon.
If GW2 wants to be a broad MMO juggernaut, it must add dozens of various elements and content. If it wants to be a compact niche game, it must excel in that particular niche.

Naoko.7096:

Your analogies and describing skills only applies to the human players in mmo.
My analogies and describing the progressions only applies to the avatars in mmorpg.

Both analogies are different and can never be compared, but both of us are right.

Okay, Naoko, let me put it this way: it’s reasonable to want progression from a game. ‘Fun’ is synonymous with feeling there’s something at stake, something that will report back to us on our performance. Rewards are one way to do this.

But what you’re asking for is an impossibility. At some point, progression has to stop, because content is finite. You have to reach the end of the road. Gear treadmills are a poor attempt to stretch out the concept of progression so that the last few drops of content can be milked for longer. They’re a stopgap system that can be much improved on.

Let’s talk about new and better ways to reward time and application beyond level 80. I’ve put up a thread suggesting the idea of special skins, gold and karma rewards for particular difficult feats in combat. The link is in my post above this one. Ideally, I’d envisage hundreds of possible achievements and rewards that can be worked towards, none of which affect balance.

If you feel that’s not enough, let’s talk about something else that might work. But the gear treadmill is one thing ANet and many of us here are decidedly against.

marcel.5938:

Jestunhi.7429:

Cezton.2415:

This whole discussion kind of blows my mind.

What blows my mind are the people who insist that what they find fun is the definition of fun.

What they personally enjoy.

Guess what? Not everyone finds the same thing as fun. No one is claiming that you don’t enjoy that, what we are saying is that this game was specifically designed for people who do not find that fun and want an MMO without a gear grind.

I can’t stand American Football, but I would not claim that it’s not fun – I’d say that I don’t find it fun, it’s my own personal opinion. I wouldn’t claim that I know whether the fans of the sport find it fun, or that my personal preference is the right answer and everyone elses is wrong.

:edit:

Nor would I demand it get changed to be a clone of some other sport.

If you wanted to be a profesional player you would choose a discipline that gives you fun and reward you wish to get. It is all about choosing.

Exactly.

Just like gamers who want a grind should choose a game designed with grinding, just like players who don’t want a grind choose GW2 as it’s designed to have no grinding required to reach maximum potential (any grinding is for cosmetic rewards).

Great read Doolio, I think you said all there is to say.

GW2 doesn’t need everything, but it needs 1) at least one area to really shine in and 2) the basics and a good overall quality

Selo.1250:

Games like DAoC, Shadowbane, GW1, UO have all shown they don’t need a set gear based carrot to keep players playing

Sigh..people really have to stop saying that DaoC, Shadowbane and UO didnt have character progression and gear treadmill.

DaoC had ALOT of character progression, realm abilities etc, and spellcrafted gear anyone? who didnt try to get over 100% taking the risk on the item exploding, just to get a little bit more stats? It wasent a huge thing, but people still spent years to maximise their characters stats.
UO runecrafting? setbonuses?

And i would be for a limited use of something similar to a RR / RA system. SC’ing in daoc ended up being completely flat stat wise. It didnt take years, or even days to sc your gear at the end. DAoC similar to this game was straight up lvl to 50 in a few days, go online print off a template, have it made and enter pvp. everyone and i mean everyone else had the exact same types of template and it ended up being a completely even playing field gear wise. This just takes it to the next lvl of evening the playing field by taking out the step of needing to template and allowing you to concentrate on getting out and pvping / pveing quicker and allows a total fluff customization.

The fluff is more of a carrot then not to some. Heck i hated wow where you grinded days on end for a gear piece you may or may not like looks wise but you had to have it to explore the next content or compete. Here i can make a effort to look into what the gear looks like, decide if it worth my time for the look i want, and then grind if i want. Or i could avoid the thing entirely and just pvp.

The carrot to do endgame is here just like any other MMO. The problem i see complained about is farming for a look that doesnt make you beast compared to anyone else is wrong. Some have graciously stated they would like the pve to not affect pvp but i have yet, ever, to see that happen. Or vice versa and have them have to adjust things down in pvp and have it adversely affect pvp. By having this level playing field in both it allows for perfect blending and balance to a higher degree (nothings perfect) for both aspects.

That said if we truly, truly need a carrot… as i said RR / RA are one way to go with out affecting gear dependency in pvp. and adding a similar system for pve (complete x dungeon or boss nets you xp towards PvE centered abilities / skills like absorbs, boosted heals, etc that would help with further harder content) That would give you a stick to work with while still allowing all to compete in all aspects. I wouldnt need the RA / PVE abilities to do anything but they would improve on my ability to help out and actually live through endgame content….

Pretty much obvious you didnt play DaoC until later years or atleast a couple of years after release. It didnt take you days to get to 50, it took months, half a year for alot.
Until they changed the exp. (EU was released 1 year after US)

You could overcharge (cant remember the word) when you spellcrafted by adding higher number of stones then it it would normaly accept, the more you did the more chance it had to explode and you lost the item, but if you succeded, you got an item that was better then others. I remember i had a cloak overcharged, then they removed the posibility to spellcraft cloaks, so i was 1 of 3 on the whole server that had one, and it had betetr stats then normal cloaks.

I can agree stats, the grinding etc in ToA destroyed the game becouse it was then became needed in RvR.

Im not looking for that, i want equal gear in WvW aswell. To me, GW2 woulda been better of having gear treadmill for PvE, and a normalized set for WvW, just like in sPvP.
Im a maximiser, its not about pwning someone in PvP, its about progressing my character, making him stronger and stronger, its not that fun for me, when i at lvl 1 already know i wont become much stronger at lvl 80, then the game becomes completly meaningless for me.
I started playing GW2 becouse of WvW and i hoped ANet had figured out something else at endgame, alas, its just like any other game minus the gear, and people are complaining in those games theres no endgame, theres no wonder people are complaining here.
WvW doesnt have any character progression either, and my server got completly ruined by bandwagon free transfers becouse we were the best english speaking server so now WvW is dead for me aswell.
Every competent WvW player that was on the server before has left and its only the scrubs left.
My server has gone from nr 2 to nr 5 and it will probably keep on dropping.
So..unfortunally GW2 was not for me, atleast not for now.

Naoko.7096

However, North believes everyone should be equal no matter what. They do not want to make, “The richer become richer, the poorer become poorer”. Everyone lead the same life. They diminish all the “classes” so that there’re no one who can be higher than another. That’s where the equal wealth distribution comes in. The people who are suppose to earn more, have to distribute their wealth to the poor. There’re no “rewards” if people make extra efforts in life because they still end up the same as those who doesn’t make effort to feed themselves. This punishes the dedicated and hardworking ones while benefits the people who doesn’t want to make effort for themselves.

You apparently have no clue how North Korea actually works.

What happens is they pump out a bunch of populist rhetoric about equality, but really the majority of people are starving and living in squalor while the vast bulk of what little wealth the nation has goes to a select few among the inner circle of power.

Kinda like all of those games that talk a big game about providing an entertaining experience for all players, but then funnel the majority of the revenues into producing content and rewards for a minority of people who conform to a specific behavior (mindlessly hammering away at a few instances under the “enlightened rule” of a self-declared leader).

If this game were Communism as it exists on paper, then as I stated earlier all of the karma and currency you produce would go into a central holding and then get distributed equally to all players.

If this game were Communism as it typically results in practice, it would look like most other AAA, progression-oriented, tier-based raid-centric grinders.

Same thing with Capitalism/Democracy, looks fantastic on paper where “hard work, ingenuity, innovation and skill will be rewarded” but in practice a select few who game the system to their own benefit at the expense of society as a whole tend to reap the greatest rewards.

All that said, these endless comparisons of a game intended for leisure entertainment to work/employment and governmental/economic models is disturbing for obvious reasons.

Focksbot.6798:

Naoko.7096:

Your analogies and describing skills only applies to the human players in mmo.
My analogies and describing the progressions only applies to the avatars in mmorpg.

Both analogies are different and can never be compared, but both of us are right.

Okay, Naoko, let me put it this way: it’s reasonable to want progression from a game. ‘Fun’ is synonymous with feeling there’s something at stake, something that will report back to us on our performance. Rewards are one way to do this.

But what you’re asking for is an impossibility. At some point, progression has to stop, because content is finite. You have to reach the end of the road. Gear treadmills are a poor attempt to stretch out the concept of progression so that the last few drops of content can be milked for longer. They’re a stopgap system that can be much improved on.

Let’s talk about new and better ways to reward time and application beyond level 80. I’ve put up a thread suggesting the idea of special skins, gold and karma rewards for particular difficult feats in combat. The link is in my post above this one. Ideally, I’d envisage hundreds of possible achievements and rewards that can be worked towards, none of which affect balance.

If you feel that’s not enough, let’s talk about something else that might work. But the gear treadmill is one thing ANet and many of us here are decidedly against.

Alright then.
Yeah, it’s best to talk about something new. I’m very drained out talking and answering others’ refutes about the current topic and really want to stop too. I agree that at least more than half here are against gear progression because the game is designed in such a way in the beginning. If they include it suddenly, the cons would weigh more than the pros because other existing structures in this game would be affected too (e.g. dynamic events, dungeons).

I’ll check out your topic soon.
I agree that there’re many factors in the game that can be improved on.
I really hope that there’s not just progressive cosmetic gears and town clothes (proven to be ineffective towards some players), but also progressive something like houses, mounts and stuffs that can keep going after reach Lv80. Something besides cosmetic gears that have progression and can “compare/compete/grind” with each other in mmo pve.

@Kerri Knight.3168, okay I understand what you mean. Well, I’m stopping here because I’m very drained out. I even skipped a meal after reading something offensive.

Selo.1250:

Pretty much obvious you didnt play DaoC until later years or atleast a couple of years after release. It didnt take you days to get to 50, it took months, half a year for alot.
Until they changed the exp. (EU was released 1 year after US)

You could overcharge (cant remember the word) when you spellcrafted by adding higher number of stones then it it would normaly accept, the more you did the more chance it had to explode and you lost the item, but if you succeded, you got an item that was better then others. I remember i had a cloak overcharged, then they removed the posibility to spellcraft cloaks, so i was 1 of 3 on the whole server that had one, and it had betetr stats then normal cloaks.

I can agree stats, the grinding etc in ToA destroyed the game becouse it was then became needed in RvR.

Im not looking for that, i want equal gear in WvW aswell. To me, GW2 woulda been better of having gear treadmill for PvE, and a normalized set for WvW, just like in sPvP.
Im a maximiser, its not about pwning someone in PvP, its about progressing my character, making him stronger and stronger, its not that fun for me, when i at lvl 1 already know i wont become much stronger at lvl 80, then the game becomes completly meaningless for me.
I started playing GW2 becouse of WvW and i hoped ANet had figured out something else at endgame, alas, its just like any other game minus the gear, and people are complaining in those games theres no endgame, theres no wonder people are complaining here.
WvW doesnt have any character progression either, and my server got completly ruined by bandwagon free transfers becouse we were the best english speaking server so now WvW is dead for me aswell.
Every competent WvW player that was on the server before has left and its only the scrubs left.
My server has gone from nr 2 to nr 5 and it will probably keep on dropping.
So..unfortunally GW2 was not for me, atleast not for now.

i played a friar from day one. i remember no rr and even remember having mastery of dodge… I know it didnt start off as a easy grind but the fact remains it didnt have much of an endgame besides what we see in wvwvw originally. HMG was pretty much it run out there and die. The invention of the carrot or RR i think is all thats truly needed.

And before SC’ing and TOA there were absolutely no templates etc. you tried to get the best drops you could but stats were very random and in the end everyone was very similar to each other. SC’ing the extra 3-4 dex by overcharging was not significantly better then not. It was shown towards the end of the game that say for a caster as long as you maxed dex, spell haste, and int the rest was fluff in a group. helpful but not entirely needed (well resists too but i digress) and the end still stands. You pick a template and 99 percent of everyone you meet had the same template all that was different was player skill.

granted i left TOA servers and never returned due to that expansion sucking (i stayed on classic from its invent to its destruction) but i could easily see this game taking a page out of that book. add the RR to work towards as a carrot. and call it good. Then there will be at least the ego centric claim of being rr 10 even if all it does is give you purge, a little extra crit and a aoe snare or something…

Focksbot.6798:

Dvojce.2486:

Focksbot.6798:

Dvojce.2486:

So, for the people who do not care about roleplay, should really stay away from this game?
Maybe they should do something other than levels then? An unlock system for areas instead of levels so no one is mislead to thinking there is special level content?

No one is being ‘misled’. It’s your fault if you’re narrow-minded enough to equate levelling up in a deeply unrealistic fashion with proper role-playing. Levelling has always simply been a gating system to control the speed at which the narrative/explorative mode of the game unfolds. ANet have just refined it so as to remove the most patently absurd side effects.

What kind of genuine ‘role-player’ really believes that their character can acquire a sword that does ten or twenty times the damage of another identical-looking one, or double up their armour while still moving at the same pace? It’s got nothing to do with role-playing. If you’re into role-playing, you need to look at all the advancements in the game as a metaphor for your character becoming gradually more experienced and capable, eventually hitting a plateau, just as they would in real life.

Sigh. As i repeat myself once again since you have selective reading… If you’re not a role player then you should stay away from this game?

Maybe it would help if that sentence made sense. Why is there a question mark at the end when it’s not phrased as a question? Are you asking: “Should role players stay away from this game?” If so, the answer is no, they should not, and I have no idea why you would suggest such a thing, except that you seem to have some perverse idea that role playing = gear grinding.

…LOL? of course its a question, which you obviously misread completely.
Can someone else answer me?
“If you’re not a role player then you should stay away from this game?”
And don’t give me “oh there’s pvp for non role players”. I’m speaking for ones who just want pve.

Dvojce.2486:

…LOL? of course its a question, which you obviously misread completely.
Can someone else answer me?
“If you’re not a role player then you should stay away from this game?”
And don’t give me “oh there’s pvp for non role players”. I’m speaking for ones who just want pve.

So let me get this straight: you’re asking: “Should non-role players stay away from this game?”

My answer is no, because there’s plenty to do for at least the first 50 hours or so, probably more if you don’t rush it. After that, there’s a more limited range of things to do.

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Focksbot.6798:

Dvojce.2486:

…LOL? of course its a question, which you obviously misread completely.
Can someone else answer me?
“If you’re not a role player then you should stay away from this game?”
And don’t give me “oh there’s pvp for non role players”. I’m speaking for ones who just want pve.

So let me get this straight: you’re asking: “Should non-role players stay away from this game?”

My answer is no, because there’s plenty to do for at least the first 50 hours or so, probably more if you don’t rush it. After that, there’s a more limited range of things to do.

What if I’m done with the map and crafting and the story, what is there left to do other than PvP..? Get cosmetic stuff.. Oh wait.. That’s for roleplayers.

im ok for grinding for fluff. Fluff is a major reason for me to play any game and i really enjoy that i dont get bigger numbers.

However the grind for fluff here is just purely insane, i can agree that much.

Focksbot.6798:

Dvojce.2486:

…LOL? of course its a question, which you obviously misread completely.
Can someone else answer me?
“If you’re not a role player then you should stay away from this game?”
And don’t give me “oh there’s pvp for non role players”. I’m speaking for ones who just want pve.

So let me get this straight: you’re asking: “Should non-role players stay away from this game?”

My answer is no, because there’s plenty to do for at least the first 50 hours or so, probably more if you don’t rush it. After that, there’s a more limited range of things to do.

Ok, I’m not posting as a smart kitten or anything, but besides pvp and costume collection (craft) and I guess completing the maps.. What else is there to look forward to?
I’m obviously missing something, no?

And before SC’ing and TOA there were absolutely no templates etc. you tried to get the best drops you could but stats were very random and in the end everyone was very similar to each other. SC’ing the extra 3-4 dex by overcharging was not significantly better then not.

yet that is exactly what many of us maximisers are about

if theres 1 item with 10 str, 10 dex, 10 vit that is very easy to get and another item with 10 str, 10 dex and 11 vit that is MUCH harder to get and takes months to get, we choose the second, just to get the absolute max stats you can get in the game.

Ye there were no RA in RvR from the start, but they were added for a reason, and also you got +1 in each stat per RR.
Overall RvR were more fun somehow aswell, felt much more epic then in WvW.
All 3 realms with 200 players each meeting up at a milegate for a massive brawl..
Also remember once i led my server and made them hide behind the trees in Emain near the Albion milegate and when the Albs passed we all cahrged down the mountain
Sigh…those were the days..

Dooley is correct, there needs to be a grind of ‘something’ – What will happen to the game if the game stays how it is…is that people will run X or Y dungeon until they get their desirable dungeon looks, buy the dyes they want, and maybe grind out the legendary/rare named weapon of their choice and find out that they are bored.

Play to improve your skill? There isn’t content that challenges any halfway decent group of skilled players in PVE. I’m not going to delve into PVP here, going to try to stick on PVE. I run all pieces of gear in pure MF and guess what? I rarely die as an Elementalist in any dungeon, yes even Arah explore. Ventrilo, a coordinated group of people, and some MMORPG experience shreds through any non-bugged content in GW2 without effort.

Play for what then? Once I have my legendary soon, I already have 100% world complete, all dungeons completed, all the exotics and dungeon gear I could ever imagine, jumping puzzles, WVW experience, list goes on – all done. There was nothing that challenged me as a serious gamer. No ladders, no speed clearing dungeons against other groups, no gear progression, no challenging bosses that GASP – reward something worthwhile?? (3rd boss in Arah – 20 minute fight – your reward? some blues.)

It’s like a single player RPG – you play until your character is awesome looking, the ‘highest’ level, and you’ve done most or all of the achievements that you find entertaining and then you naturally progress to the next thing/game.

GW2 needs to add something that compares players, gives people a competition, gives people a challenge. And hey, guess what naysayers? You can still have everything that is great right now, it has no effect on you if you don’t want to participate in a 8 or 16 man challenging boss that has a chance to drop some unique skin or something (as an example). What about dungeon speed timers that the top 1% of times every month would get a unique dye, or a monthly skin that was really cool? No harm to people who don’t want to participate, yet giving people something to work towards who want to and provide a challenge.

Selo.1250:

And before SC’ing and TOA there were absolutely no templates etc. you tried to get the best drops you could but stats were very random and in the end everyone was very similar to each other. SC’ing the extra 3-4 dex by overcharging was not significantly better then not.

yet that is exactly what many of us maximisers are about

if theres 1 item with 10 str, 10 dex, 10 vit that is very easy to get and another item with 10 str, 10 dex and 11 vit that is MUCH harder to get and takes months to get, we choose the second, just to get the absolute max stats you can get in the game.

Ye there were no RA in RvR from the start, but they were added for a reason, and also you got +1 in each stat per RR.
Overall RvR were more fun somehow aswell, felt much more epic then in WvW.
All 3 realms with 200 players each meeting up at a milegate for a massive brawl..
Also remember once i led my server and made them hide behind the trees in Emain near the Albion milegate and when the Albs passed we all cahrged down the mountain
Sigh…those were the days..

and im all for advocating the introduction of something akin to RA’s. i agree they made the pvp aspect dynamic by offering a soft carrot to achieve. i think daoc’s ability to allow a rr3 to compete with a rr8 without significant trouble while still offering the rr8 access to things that would help the fight was significant and have yet to see it since daoc. if this games the next big thing then yes.

i just dont want to see another war – where rr meant insane gaps in gear, wow where it was about how many bg’s you farmed in how well you compete, swtor gear dependency, ad infinitum. rr and slight differences like daoc in stat development and rr focus would be preferable to another gear grind if they have to add a carrot

There’s another game you can go to if you love to grind. I hear they even have panda’s now too.