Guild Wars 2

Here is a new topic for discussion! How to increase the longevity of an MMORPG?

Or better question: how do we give players rewards while they do content a limited amount of times, and yet we still keep them playing for years?

1) The easiest solution to this very important problem is to lock rewards behind an excessive grind to get them. Either using some form of reputation/tokens, very low random chances to get the reward, or a combination of the above. So players cannot get something very quickly / easily without investing time (unless they are very LUCKY) But this “solution” isn’t exactly ideal for players, they are either lucky and like it, or unlucky and complain about it. Tokens on the other hand make the whole process feel more like a job.

2) Another solution, also easy to think off, but probably impossible to implement, is to have a constant influx of new items for players to acquire or new content for players to play. The Living World of Guild Wars 2 is a perfect example of this solution, every 2 weeks you get to play some new content, and acquire some new rewards specific for that content. However the Living World has its own set of problems, notably how short each release is. While you DO get something new to do every 2 weeks, it lacks in quantity, and due to production schedules and restrictions, it might even lack in quality or have lots of bugs.

3) Sandbox-like games, allow players to create the content themselves. They allow players to create from simple items, to whole player run towns and corporations, with intricate player-driven mechanics and hierarchy. Of course those types of games don’t work for everyone, in fact more structured (or themepark) games have been more successful than sandbox games in the past. Games like EVE depend on the community, the players, to work.
How do we add more sandbox-y elements in Guild Wars 2?

4) Allowing players to create their own content. Neverwinter tried this approach, allowing players to create their own adventures and quests. To keep it balanced, the end reward is created by the parent company and not by the content creators themselves, so they can balance it. This solves the lack of content problem, but it doesn’t do much for rewards. You still are at the mercy of a random number generator to get your rewards.

How do we allow players to create their own content in Guild Wars 2?

Dynamic events are being created using an editor, imagine if Anet allowed players to play with that editor, see what they can come up with. There is a new system of “adventures” coming up in HoT, what if players could create their own adventures? Rewards would still be up to Anet, not the designers of the content.

At the very least, in Guild Wars 1 Arenanet did some “Design your Weapon” contests, that allowed creative people to design new weapons for the game, either just names, or full skins, then Arenanet put them behind content. That’s another way to make player-driven content in an themepark MMORPG

GW2 is fundamentally a very traditional MMO.
Yes there is no trinity and we have a more active combat, but the systems that make people play GW2 are the same system that games like WoW use.

You cant just slap some sandbox on a game like GW2.

Eve works so well because the entire game is build to be a sandbox, on top of being a pure pvp game where pve really is just a means to an end for the majority of the community, rather than the primary content.

Every MMO is ultimately the same.

PvP or Grind.

It cannot work any other way because all MMOs need their customers to play a lot in order to make money, but cant possibly provide enough “fresh” content to prevent repetitive gameplay. Eve went for PvP, GW2 went for a mix but is mostly grind.

1. Is basically the never ending gold grind in GW2. However grind like that only works for a while, eventually people will get bored by the grind or simply bored by nothing to do when they do not participate in the grind.

2. I am in favor of that one but not in the form of a living world but with yearly expansions. Then you can keep adding new quality content and place new rewards behind new content. At the same time you make money with the content so you can place the rewards behind it in stead of trying to make the money of the rewards by placing them in a cash-shop or behind a grind.

3. Sandbox is also a good way to do it indeed.

4. Number 4 is basically the same as 3, or a part of 3. The only difference is that with 4 the content you make is more like out of the game while with 3 it’s more in the game. I think I would prefer 3 for an MMORPG. 4 is more something for shooters imho (mods).

5. I think competitive play is also a good way. Make dungeons where two teams are competing with one another for example. I played W:ET many many times. I never counted it but many maps I must have done many many many times and I still would like to do it. It’s the challenge that keeps it interesting, and while you can learn to tackle AI (so the challenge ends at some point) when playing against players it will stay fun every time.

Sand box MMORPGs are becoming real popular and I would like to see some type of creativity come to GuildWars in the near future. I think that this is trend that most future games may fallow and for this game to compete with ather games they will need to start looking into how to add this to the game. Sure not everyone likes building stuff but as an optional activity that doesn’t effect the core game would be welcome. A good start would be player housing, some type of sandbox style system would be great for this game. I would not like to see the existing PVE or PvP areas clottered up with player housing but some other areas could be created to accommodate this feature.

Arkinos.7245:

GW2 is fundamentally a very traditional MMO.
Yes there is no trinity and we have a more active combat, but the systems that make people play GW2 are the same system that games like WoW use.

You cant just slap some sandbox on a game like GW2.

Eve works so well because the entire game is build to be a sandbox, on top of being a pure pvp game where pve really is just a means to an end for the majority of the community, rather than the primary content.

Every MMO is ultimately the same.

PvP or Grind.

It cannot work any other way because all MMOs need their customers to play a lot in order to make money, but cant possibly provide enough “fresh” content to prevent repetitive gameplay. Eve went for PvP, GW2 went for a mix but is mostly grind.

Well you could make it a sandpark (like ArcheAge) but it’s hard to do that when the complete core is not build for it. However I do feel it is what the game would need if Anet wanted to achieve what they said. A always changing world where player actions have a true impact to the world.

Sure Anet can destroy LA but does that really make live it changes all the time? It just changes in some patch, and all the influence players had so far has been some complains / suggestions in the forum and the vote in-game. For the rest there is not a lot a player does that really changes the world. Some even you complete simply starts over a little later.

So if they would really want to make this always changing world where the player has impact on the world then the only way to do it is to give it more sandbox elements.

Feirlista Xv.1425:

Sand box MMORPGs are becoming real popular and I would like to see some type of creativity come to GuildWars in the near future. I think that this is trend that most future games may fallow and for this game to compete with ather games they will need to start looking into how to add this to the game. Sure not everyone likes building stuff but as an optional activity that doesn’t effect the core game would be welcome. A good start would be player housing, some type of sandbox style system would be great for this game. I would not like to see the existing PVE or PvP areas clottered up with player housing but some other areas could be created to accommodate this feature.

There are actually very, very few true sandbox MMOs.

Right now I’d say Eve and maybe Lineage 2 give people a lot of options and most importantly: open world pvp.

Everything else is just your standard issue themepark MMO with some player housing or similar elements slapped on for a pseudo sandbox feel.

Arkinos.7245:

GW2 is fundamentally a very traditional MMO.

It’s funny because being different from traditional MMO’s is one of the game’s main selling points.

Playable,hard but easy and not trying always to mess with players and limit them in any way possible.
Making content harder but not fixing bugs and when some kind of abuse which could make the player life easier appears which of course is posted by a IQ fighter somewhere for greater view are repaired in no-time.

Making Unique classes which relies mostly on the player skill and not on the builds.65% player 35% build.

Hiring game testers and testing contents in details before release.

Making fair development team for classes,ppl who fight for their class in development and take care about.

Mabinogi is as close to a “sandbox” MMO as you’re gonna get… and devCAT dropped the ball HARD with it.

Arkinos.7245:

GW2 is fundamentally a very traditional MMO.
Yes there is no trinity and we have a more active combat, but the systems that make people play GW2 are the same system that games like WoW use.

It’s missing hardcore content that is only doable by a fraction of the playerbase but otherwise the systems that keep people playing are indeed the same.

PvP or Grind.

Yes, ultimately it comes down to PvP or Grind, however by the definition of the term “grind” as repeating content over and over, PvP is also a Grind. Let’s ask then the simple question, why is repeating the same thing all the time, same maps, same gamemodes, same mechanics feels good in PvP and players repeat it, while doing the same thing in PvE is called a “grind” and players find it boring?

Maybe another way to add longevity in an MMORPG is by adding extra challenging content. While the game community as a whole is struggling to beat the content, they are not “grinding”, they are trying their best, new strategies and tricks, new abilities, new combinations etc in order to beat it.

Think of how many times players repeated Liadri in order to kill her, was that a “grind”? I’d say it wasn’t, because it wasn’t something that you repeat over and over.

As I said in other similar threads, the reason “hard content” and “open world” don’t go well together, is because in the Open World not every player is challenged by the content. In order to have truly challenging content, EVERYONE involved should be playing at their best. For example, a couple of people use Turrets at Tequatl and two defense teams, everyone else is fighting Tequatl like they are fighting Shadow Behemoth.

So, CHALLENGING content is maybe an answer that gives extra longevity to games!

Devata.6589:

5. I think competitive play is also a good way. Make dungeons where two teams are competing with one another for example. I played W:ET many many times. I never counted it but many maps I must have done many many many times and I still would like to do it. It’s the challenge that keeps it interesting, and while you can learn to tackle AI (so the challenge ends at some point) when playing against players it will stay fun every time.

Good competition is indeed a good way to solve the longevity problem of MMORPGs. Players will be doing the same content again and again, however by adding the “competition” in the mix, they will HAVE to play better and better each time. So each time they do the content it’s slightly different / improved.

They are going to add some form of competition in their adventures in HoT, which is a good thing. I think those Adventures have the potential to be what the game needs.

However, a similar system could work in other places too. Given the emphasis on Open World content, would it be ok to add something like “Vinewrath” kill time leaderboards? Or is competition too much for the Open World and should be reserved for instances only.

Arkinos.7245:

Right now I’d say Eve and maybe Lineage 2 give people a lot of options and most importantly: open world pvp.

Lineage 2 .. really ? The most grindy game ever where you have to camp at a spot
for 10 hours to get 1% exp .. and loose 5% exp on every death .. so yeah a lot of
PvP will of course let you play forever if you don’t want to end up as a level 5 again.

Oh .. i forgot to mention that you could actually level down from deaths.

User Generated Content.

Open world PVP mixed in with PVE is the best form of user generated content. It is in fact a sandbox that changes based on player input.

Computer Generated Content.

Think of a computer system that can build dungeons and NPC’s randomly. The gaming experience will remain fresh for much longer. Perhaps indefinitely.

Current formulae uses linear story telling. This system will always take longer to build than to consume. Grinds are placed to make it take longer to consume. Some companies monetize convenience in exchange for money to reduce the time it takes to grind.

Open sandbox mmos last longer unless you have pvp that keeps players busy like C9 or massive grind and RNG is present also like C9. The closest thing to this is WvW but it’s siege focus and you don’t farm there plus other stuff. Lineage 1-2 definitely made it even tough second one screwed up the first is still most played in Korea and the upcoming Lineage Eternal is creating hype,BDO failed at it, so yeah theme parks need expansions but part of the population unsubscribes or stops playing due easily burned content.

It happens in WoW,GW2 and other theme parks, the PvP here isn’t as great and engaging compared to previous and current mmos. That’s why they want Esports and will have to keep doing expansions to remain relevant. People saying open PvP in PvE is bad and creates bad population you are in denial, it creates the best kind of social experience of course as long the system supports it, if it was for PvP only I wouldn’t have left C9 but everything else drove me away, GW2 has a special kind of theme park.

Don’t disrespect Lineage 2 unless you like instant rewards even with the grind aspect of C9 or Vindictus I felt rewarded when I got those perfect mats, master gear, finished all rounds of survival to get my unique necklaces.
It’s the journey and the treasure, here well just go EotM or use them scrolls.

GW2 + Minecraft development tool for PvP, WvW, PvE + app monetization.

I’d be dancing so much I’ll end up falling into an ocean from a cliff.

Sagat.3285:

Open sandbox mmos last longer unless you have pvp that keeps players busy like C9 or massive grind and RNG is present also like C9. The closest thing to this is WvW but it’s siege focus and you don’t farm there plus other stuff. Lineage 1-2 definitely made it even tough second one screwed up the first is still most played in Korea and the upcoming Lineage Eternal is creating hype,BDO failed at it, so yeah theme parks need expansions but part of the population unsubscribes or stops playing due easily burned content.

It happens in WoW,GW2 and other theme parks, the PvP here isn’t as great and engaging compared to previous and current mmos. That’s why they want Esports and will have to keep doing expansions to remain relevant. People saying open PvP in PvE is bad and creates bad population you are in denial, it creates the best kind of social experience of course as long the system supports it, if it was for PvP only I wouldn’t have left C9 but everything else drove me away, GW2 has a special kind of theme park.

Don’t disrespect Lineage 2 unless you like instant rewards even with the grind aspect of C9 or Vindictus I felt rewarded when I got those perfect mats, master gear, finished all rounds of survival to get my unique necklaces.
It’s the journey and the treasure, here well just go EotM or use them scrolls.

some people like to be able to do their pve without having to worry about an enemy player killing you for not l337 players the mobs are plenty difficult most of the time (course world bosses are easier due to the huge number of players)

Beldin.5498:

Arkinos.7245:

Right now I’d say Eve and maybe Lineage 2 give people a lot of options and most importantly: open world pvp.

Lineage 2 .. really ? The most grindy game ever where you have to camp at a spot
for 10 hours to get 1% exp .. and loose 5% exp on every death .. so yeah a lot of
PvP will of course let you play forever if you don’t want to end up as a level 5 again.

Oh .. i forgot to mention that you could actually level down from deaths.

Whining about how harsh a game is still doesnt change the core of the game.

Lineage2 offers a lot of sandbox features, you can actually claim Cities with your guild and have a lasting impact on the world.

Unlike GW2 which opens a temporary map whenever needed and closes them whenever it gets empty and ultimately has no persistent elements at all.
Which is twice as horrible if you consider that most high end maps have complex meta events which would work really well with persistent maps.

Arkinos.7245:

Beldin.5498:

Arkinos.7245:

Right now I’d say Eve and maybe Lineage 2 give people a lot of options and most importantly: open world pvp.

Lineage 2 .. really ? The most grindy game ever where you have to camp at a spot
for 10 hours to get 1% exp .. and loose 5% exp on every death .. so yeah a lot of
PvP will of course let you play forever if you don’t want to end up as a level 5 again.

Oh .. i forgot to mention that you could actually level down from deaths.

Whining about how harsh a game is still doesnt change the core of the game.

Lineage2 offers a lot of sandbox features, you can actually claim Cities with your guild and have a lasting impact on the world.

I thought the thread was more about alternates to grinding .. and L2s alternate
(at least wheni played it) was even more grinding.

Castles were mostly owned by Guilds of Goldsellers .. and people sometimes even
joined Goldseller Guilds.

Farming was also fun when you were ks’ed by goldseller farmers all the time, or when
you entered an area full of farmers and they just say : “you go, i PK”

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Sagat.3285:

Open sandbox mmos last longer unless you have pvp that keeps players busy like C9 or massive grind and RNG is present also like C9. The closest thing to this is WvW but it’s siege focus and you don’t farm there plus other stuff. Lineage 1-2 definitely made it even tough second one screwed up the first is still most played in Korea and the upcoming Lineage Eternal is creating hype,BDO failed at it, so yeah theme parks need expansions but part of the population unsubscribes or stops playing due easily burned content.

It happens in WoW,GW2 and other theme parks, the PvP here isn’t as great and engaging compared to previous and current mmos. That’s why they want Esports and will have to keep doing expansions to remain relevant. People saying open PvP in PvE is bad and creates bad population you are in denial, it creates the best kind of social experience of course as long the system supports it, if it was for PvP only I wouldn’t have left C9 but everything else drove me away, GW2 has a special kind of theme park.

Don’t disrespect Lineage 2 unless you like instant rewards even with the grind aspect of C9 or Vindictus I felt rewarded when I got those perfect mats, master gear, finished all rounds of survival to get my unique necklaces.
It’s the journey and the treasure, here well just go EotM or use them scrolls.

some people like to be able to do their pve without having to worry about an enemy player killing you for not l337 players the mobs are plenty difficult most of the time (course world bosses are easier due to the huge number of players)

Social ties, if you want to pve safely carry a pvp group with you most likely guildies, that promotes actual ties between and promotes active group play,PK karma system exist, it creates a good relation between crafter,pkers,farmer,merchants etc. instead of karma train,PPT WvW,Conquest pvp messing other modes etc. It also gives player constant goals that keeps them playing because they can affect others progress if they outsmart them, they only leave if their enemies do or the game becomes the opposite of what it was.

That’s the best social system in mmo, theme parks like GW2 with linear progression need the devs to constantly add expansions that everyone knows will not suffice and players will go back to pvp or just farming endlessly. It is anti-casual so it makes the game grow naturally Lineage 1 & 2 are still heavily played just like Eve Online, those are old games by standard, those who like instant and easy rewards don’t stay for long they jumped between games unless you have something others don’t WvW is big one for me as well as a unique PvPstyle, PvE only won’t make a game last.

Perfect is an opinion but not longevity potential.

Sagat.3285:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Sagat.3285:

Open sandbox mmos last longer unless you have pvp that keeps players busy like C9 or massive grind and RNG is present also like C9. The closest thing to this is WvW but it’s siege focus and you don’t farm there plus other stuff. Lineage 1-2 definitely made it even tough second one screwed up the first is still most played in Korea and the upcoming Lineage Eternal is creating hype,BDO failed at it, so yeah theme parks need expansions but part of the population unsubscribes or stops playing due easily burned content.

It happens in WoW,GW2 and other theme parks, the PvP here isn’t as great and engaging compared to previous and current mmos. That’s why they want Esports and will have to keep doing expansions to remain relevant. People saying open PvP in PvE is bad and creates bad population you are in denial, it creates the best kind of social experience of course as long the system supports it, if it was for PvP only I wouldn’t have left C9 but everything else drove me away, GW2 has a special kind of theme park.

Don’t disrespect Lineage 2 unless you like instant rewards even with the grind aspect of C9 or Vindictus I felt rewarded when I got those perfect mats, master gear, finished all rounds of survival to get my unique necklaces.
It’s the journey and the treasure, here well just go EotM or use them scrolls.

some people like to be able to do their pve without having to worry about an enemy player killing you for not l337 players the mobs are plenty difficult most of the time (course world bosses are easier due to the huge number of players)

Social ties, if you want to pve safely carry a pvp group with you most likely guildies, that promotes actual ties between and promotes active group play,PK karma system exist, it creates a good relation between crafter,pkers,farmer,merchants etc. instead of karma train,PPT WvW,Conquest pvp messing other modes etc. It also gives player constant goals that keeps them playing because they can affect others progress if they outsmart them, they only leave if their enemies do or the game becomes the opposite of what it was.

That’s the best social system in mmo, theme parks like GW2 with linear progression need the devs to constantly add expansions that everyone knows will not suffice and players will go back to pvp or just farming endlessly. It is anti-casual so it makes the game grow naturally Lineage 1 & 2 are still heavily played just like Eve Online, those are old games by standard, those who like instant and easy rewards don’t stay for long they jumped between games unless you have something others don’t WvW is big one for me as well as a unique PvPstyle, PvE only won’t make a game last.

Perfect is an opinion but not longevity potential.

A very nice post.

A lot of people forget that Eve online is 10 years old and has been constantly growing over all of these years. And while Lineage 2 has many inofficial sequels like Aion, its still one of the largest MMOs in the world.

The social ties and metagame of pvp centric open world MMOs are much thicker, because trust is actually very important in these games.

If you have to be careful who you trust, who you play with, you develop much richer social ties to your fellow players and ultimately become much more drawn to the game than you would be drawn into an anything goes casual MMO like GW2.

This comes obviously at the cost of growth rates, after all not much people are willing to take it slow and tolerate the loss of exp or ships like in L2/Eve.

Making a game world feel lived in or rather that you give the players tools to allow their characters a place to live in is totally important. ArenaNet has that first piece in place because the game world feels lived in. There are a ton of little touches that make the game world look as if it has age to it.

The second piece of that puzzle is giving players the tools so that they can have a place for their characters to live. On that front, ArenaNet has dropped the ball. One of their selling points for this game was the home instance and they completely abandoned letting us use that space to make our own. Games like The Sims, Minecraft, Star Wars Galaxies and the The Elder Scrolls games got that right and have or had a longevity all their own based on the freedom they gave their playerbase to make that space a game of their own.

Ownership is something that goes a long way in creating longevity in a game. If I feel like a space in a world is all mine, I can call it home.

MMO = I want to have the most uber gear and abilities for just logging in every day. Then I will stand around pretending to be AFK while others oogle my gear and appearance while I talk in guild voice chat about how the game is both easy and unfair.