Guild Wars 2

Tony.6028:

You should sacrifice something to get magic find. That makes sense. You’re making your life more difficult in exchange for increased drops. It’s like gambling; it’s fun for some.

To be honest I don’t understand why everyone picks on magic find. There are lots of other stats that don’t help others. You’re stretching it to say that my vitality helps you. And ban all potions because your potions don’t help others; they only help you.

Just let other people play the game the way they want. It’s not a numbers game. Telling other players what armor to wear, what weapons to equip, what skills to use, what traits to invest in, what consumables to consume etc. is not fun.

Someone with more Vitality is harder to take down. Someone who isn’t downed is doing useful stuff instead of being downed, and isn’t wasting someones time to get them back up. They will also be better at getting downed people up, as they have more health to fall back on while rezzing.
And all food (except GF/MF food) helps the party for the same reason all other stats help the party. More damage, more survival, more helpful conditions, more boons, more healing, all of these things help the party.

Paradoxine.8192:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Paradoxine.8192:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Once again, this doesn’t make sense. It’s not unfair for the MF user, because the MF user is benefiting from the superior combat stats of the other party members. The superior combatants are benefiting from the MF character.

By its very definition, dungeoning is a group effort. Not an individual one. You guys are seriously off the mark with this.

if it’s a group effort, then why are you not okay with sharing damage, vitality, toughness and condition damage?
Or is it just that you want to benefit from magic users without actually getting the gear yourself?

Seriously, you are thick. YOU ARE SHARING ALL STATS. It’s a team sport. Just because the stats aren’t literally divided doesn’t mean they aren’t functionally. Good players/builds bring the whole team up, bad ones bring the whole team down.

you don’t benefit from someone else having vitality or toughness, the same way that you don’t benefit from someone having mf. It’s a stat that they have. The same way that you don’t benefit from other’s damage if you’re unable to deliver 10% of it to tag a mob before it dies, therefore getting no loot.

Yes you are. the better they can stay alive the better it is for you. The more damage they do, the faster you kill things as a party regardless of your contribution. If you’re in a group you don’t have to tag a mob to get its loot, only your party does. You benefit from it regardless.

…… I don’t know what else to say to you to drive it home.

Except how useful one party members vitality and toughness stats really are is dependent on player skill and their utilisation of the skills they have. Magic find is a completely passive bonus, affecting loot tables and to have it shared between party members completely flies in the face of ANET’s unique loot table philosophy. Never mind the fact that averaging the MF will encourage “100%+ MF to join” groups.

Why should one players magic find which would usually be +25% suddenly be +5% because he plays with a party?

Uh… HOW would it undermine unique loot tables? You still get unique loot tables.

Are you kidding me?

1. Averaging MF affects the loot tables of each party member.
2. Now there is an incentive for people to only recruit people with X magic find.
3. Your loot is now no longer based solely on what mobs you tag and how much you contribute, but on whether your party members happen to have a passive stat, which they deliberately sacrificed useful gameplay changing stats for.

1. Yes, that’s the idea.
2. It’ll exist I’m sure, but I doubt it’ll dominate the game and will probably be less prevalent than zerker elitism. Not a good enough reason to not do it.
3. Your loot was only ever based on how fast you kill and how good your AoE is, not how much you contribute, which is very nebulous. Again, it’s better than what exists currently where you are hurting your group and benefiting only yourself.

Paradoxine.8192:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Paradoxine.8192:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Once again, this doesn’t make sense. It’s not unfair for the MF user, because the MF user is benefiting from the superior combat stats of the other party members. The superior combatants are benefiting from the MF character.

By its very definition, dungeoning is a group effort. Not an individual one. You guys are seriously off the mark with this.

if it’s a group effort, then why are you not okay with sharing damage, vitality, toughness and condition damage?
Or is it just that you want to benefit from magic users without actually getting the gear yourself?

Seriously, you are thick. YOU ARE SHARING ALL STATS. It’s a team sport. Just because the stats aren’t literally divided doesn’t mean they aren’t functionally. Good players/builds bring the whole team up, bad ones bring the whole team down.

you don’t benefit from someone else having vitality or toughness, the same way that you don’t benefit from someone having mf. It’s a stat that they have. The same way that you don’t benefit from other’s damage if you’re unable to deliver 10% of it to tag a mob before it dies, therefore getting no loot.

Yes you are. the better they can stay alive the better it is for you. The more damage they do, the faster you kill things as a party regardless of your contribution. If you’re in a group you don’t have to tag a mob to get its loot, only your party does. You benefit from it regardless.

…… I don’t know what else to say to you to drive it home.

Except how useful one party members vitality and toughness stats really are is dependent on player skill and their utilisation of the skills they have. Magic find is a completely passive bonus, affecting loot tables and to have it shared between party members completely flies in the face of ANET’s unique loot table philosophy. Never mind the fact that averaging the MF will encourage “100%+ MF to join” groups.

Why should one players magic find which would usually be +25% suddenly be +5% because he plays with a party?

Uh… HOW would it undermine unique loot tables? You still get unique loot tables.

Are you kidding me?

1. Averaging MF affects the loot tables of each party member.
2. Now there is an incentive for people to only recruit people with X magic find.
3. Your loot is now no longer based solely on what mobs you tag and how much you contribute, but on whether your party members happen to have a passive stat, which they deliberately sacrificed useful gameplay changing stats for.

1. Yes, but it doesn’t make people share the loot drops unlike that other game and other games like it, which was the main focus of “unique loot tables”
2. I don’t disagree with this.
3. That other person deliberately sacrificed useful gameplay changing stats for it, and as such is less useful, and is leaning more on the rest of the team to accomplish anything. If they’re going to decrease the group’s effectiveness on purpose then they kitten well should be sharing the results.

Mirta.5029:

Ratty.5176:

Mirta.5029:

Ratty.5176:

Mirta.5029:

if it’s a group effort, then why are you not okay with sharing damage, vitality, toughness and condition damage?
Or is it just that you want to benefit from magic users without actually getting the gear yourself?

But they are sharing their Damage with the rest of the group, they are killing mobs faster. This helps the group.
They are sharing their Condition Duration with the rest of the group, because there conditions are more useful the team enemy move slower, are blinded, do less damage.
They are sharing their Condition Damage with the rest of the group, mobs are dying faster making it easier for the team to get through the dungeon faster.
Their Toughness/Vitality does help the team, they are less likely to go down and need rezing, they are going to need less healing.
Your Magic Find doesn’t help the team, all it does is help you. Any other stat would help the team more (and by more any value is better than 0, which is what your magic find is contributing to the team).

they’re killing the mobs faster preventing their teammates from tagging them or getting any loot from them, they use their vitality/ toughness, go down and die while their squishy teammates have to jump around and avoid attacks. If you don’t want to share your stats with others don’t ask others to kitten themselves so you could get free stats.

How on earth are they preventing teammates from tagging mobs, have you ever been in a Dungeon, all the mobs have so much health that it’s unlikely that team members won’t get a tag on them, especially since they have lowered how much damage you need to do to get a tag. Just because they have Vitality/Toughness does not mean they are not avoiding attacks, But being able to tank some damage does make it easier for them to pick up a downed team-mate without dying in the process. To face tank a boss to make it turn away from squishy team mates.

I’m not asking you to kitten yourself to get free stats. I’m asking that if you kitten yourself (it’s your choice) and therefore kitten the rest of the group by proxy, the team actually gets something out of it. Otherwise people are always going to be after someone that contributes over someone that contributes less to get more personal loot.

try CoE stairs. Mobs are in vast numbers, not a lot of health, can be one hit, if you have one warrior on the group nobody besides him gets loot. There are other places just like these.
If a person with vit/toughness is crap and dirtnaps a lot his vitality and toughness is of no benefit to the team.
If you want another person to kitten his stat to 1/5th of its effectiveness, be prepared to do the same or drop the stupid idea.
Allowing mf users to exchange their gear for whatever they want and allowing all people to get mf trough expensive infusions would be a fair way to do it.

tbh, I think this is what you would find, everyone would take a bit of Magic Find in areas where they don’t think full gear is necessary, rather than one person taking Magic Find for personal reasons.

Also someone that take Vitality/Toughness is going to be down less than if they didn’t take it. What your talking about is bad players, and yes bad players will go down. What’s that got to do with the argument. If I have a Guardian face-tanking a Boss while healing those around him, he is going to do better with Toughness than Magic-Find.

Why not make MF an infusible stat much like adding agony resist to a back piece. take your dps gear, add <random number> of Ectos, <bla bla bla> infusion, stick em in the mystic toilet and now you have your main gear + MF stats on em.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

That other person deliberately sacrificed useful gameplay changing stats for it, and as such is less useful, and is leaning more on the rest of the team to accomplish anything. If they’re going to decrease the group’s effectiveness on purpose then they kitten well should be sharing the results.

please explain to me now why should people have one of their stats kitten instead of following a different idea from page 3, allowing people with mf to chose any kind of different gear set to use instead and make mf a hard to get infusion that you can get in a slot specifically for mf?

Ratty.5176:

tbh, I think this is what you would find, everyone would take a bit of Magic Find in areas where they don’t think full gear is necessary, rather than one person taking Magic Find for personal reasons.

Also someone that take Vitality/Toughness is going to be down less than if they didn’t take it. What your talking about is bad players, and yes bad players will go down. What’s that got to do with the argument. If I have a Guardian face-tanking a Boss while healing those around him, he is going to do better with Toughness than Magic-Find.

why do you think people exchange their precious stats just to help someone else to get better loot, instead of catching a dude with mf, gimping his stats and getting better loot themselves? At the same time, why would a dude in full mf run with someone that doesn’t have full mf? You think too highly of MMO players.

Mirta.5029:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

That other person deliberately sacrificed useful gameplay changing stats for it, and as such is less useful, and is leaning more on the rest of the team to accomplish anything. If they’re going to decrease the group’s effectiveness on purpose then they kitten well should be sharing the results.

please explain to me now why should people have one of their stats kitten instead of following a different idea from page 3, allowing people with mf to chose any kind of different gear set to use instead and make mf a hard to get infusion that you can get in a slot specifically for mf?

Path of least resistance, it would be easier for A-Net to change how MF works, than to recall every piece of gear with the stat in the game.

Mirta.5029:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

That other person deliberately sacrificed useful gameplay changing stats for it, and as such is less useful, and is leaning more on the rest of the team to accomplish anything. If they’re going to decrease the group’s effectiveness on purpose then they kitten well should be sharing the results.

please explain to me now why should people have one of their stats kitten instead of following a different idea from page 3, allowing people with mf to chose any kind of different gear set to use instead and make mf a hard to get infusion that you can get in a slot specifically for mf?

When did I ever say I have a problem with this? I’m fine with that.
The current implementation is what I have a problem with. There are a number of solutions to do something about the current implementation, all of which remove the selfishness factor, and that’s what I want. Be it sharing or removing (or at least stop replacing useful stuff with it), it’s better than what it currently is.

I wish I could just buy you all drinks and talk this out over a couple of beers.

Ratty.5176:

Mirta.5029:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

That other person deliberately sacrificed useful gameplay changing stats for it, and as such is less useful, and is leaning more on the rest of the team to accomplish anything. If they’re going to decrease the group’s effectiveness on purpose then they kitten well should be sharing the results.

please explain to me now why should people have one of their stats kitten instead of following a different idea from page 3, allowing people with mf to chose any kind of different gear set to use instead and make mf a hard to get infusion that you can get in a slot specifically for mf?

Path of least resistance, it would be easier for A-Net to change how MF works, than to recall every piece of gear with the stat in the game.

so let’s allow the system to be broken and cause problems, because that’s how it’s easier to do? Imagine if work project would be done this way. “I spilled my coffee on this presentation, however it was far easier to wipe the coffee away than to re-print it. If you can’t read what’s hidden behind a stain ask me and I’ll tell you what it was supposed to be”

gimmethegepgun.1284:

When did I ever say I have a problem with this? I’m fine with that.
The current implementation is what I have a problem with. There are a number of solutions to do something about the current implementation, all of which remove the selfishness factor, and that’s what I want. Be it sharing or removing (or at least stop replacing useful stuff with it), it’s better than what it currently is.

my point was that sharing is a whole different deal of people being greedy and selfish, therefore removing and replacing with an infusion is a much better way to go

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mirta.5029:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

That other person deliberately sacrificed useful gameplay changing stats for it, and as such is less useful, and is leaning more on the rest of the team to accomplish anything. If they’re going to decrease the group’s effectiveness on purpose then they kitten well should be sharing the results.

please explain to me now why should people have one of their stats kitten instead of following a different idea from page 3, allowing people with mf to chose any kind of different gear set to use instead and make mf a hard to get infusion that you can get in a slot specifically for mf?

When did I ever say I have a problem with this? I’m fine with that.
The current implementation is what I have a problem with. There are a number of solutions to do something about the current implementation, all of which remove the selfishness factor, and that’s what I want. Be it sharing or removing (or at least stop replacing useful stuff with it), it’s better than what it currently is.

The reason sharing it is IMO the best option is because a.) I’m biased and I enjoy Magic Find as an itemized stat and b.) it would be the simplest to implement and carries the least risk of causing a lot of backlash.

Mirta.5029:

Ratty.5176:

Mirta.5029:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

That other person deliberately sacrificed useful gameplay changing stats for it, and as such is less useful, and is leaning more on the rest of the team to accomplish anything. If they’re going to decrease the group’s effectiveness on purpose then they kitten well should be sharing the results.

please explain to me now why should people have one of their stats kitten instead of following a different idea from page 3, allowing people with mf to chose any kind of different gear set to use instead and make mf a hard to get infusion that you can get in a slot specifically for mf?

Path of least resistance, it would be easier for A-Net to change how MF works, than to recall every piece of gear with the stat in the game.

so let’s allow the system to be broken and cause problems, because that’s how it’s easier to do? Imagine if work project would be done this way. “I spilled my coffee on this presentation, however it was far easier to wipe the coffee away than to re-print it. If you can’t read what’s hidden behind a stain ask me and I’ll tell you what it was supposed to be”

It’s only in your head that it would be broken, therefore the rest of the analogy is irrelevant.

One thing I don’t think you’re really getting is that if MF is averaged across a group, you’re talking about each individual player only contributing very little MF alone. The only way anyone could truly be leeching is if they themselves weren’t wearing any MF and were trying to party up with 4 other players all with MF. In that situation, the MF people would benefit from the non-MF’s combat prowess.

I actually think the reason you’re so opposed to this is because you like rolling MF and being able to enter dungeons being supported by others and benefiting fully from the MF on your own gear. That’s the exact problem with the current implementation.

Einlanzer.1627:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mirta.5029:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

That other person deliberately sacrificed useful gameplay changing stats for it, and as such is less useful, and is leaning more on the rest of the team to accomplish anything. If they’re going to decrease the group’s effectiveness on purpose then they kitten well should be sharing the results.

please explain to me now why should people have one of their stats kitten instead of following a different idea from page 3, allowing people with mf to chose any kind of different gear set to use instead and make mf a hard to get infusion that you can get in a slot specifically for mf?

When did I ever say I have a problem with this? I’m fine with that.
The current implementation is what I have a problem with. There are a number of solutions to do something about the current implementation, all of which remove the selfishness factor, and that’s what I want. Be it sharing or removing (or at least stop replacing useful stuff with it), it’s better than what it currently is.

The reason sharing it is IMO the best option is because a.) I’m biased and I enjoy Magic Find as an itemized stat and b.) it would be the simplest to implement and carries the least risk of causing a lot of backlash.

a) is not really a reason
b) it would cause plenty of backlash. It would cause the community to divide even worse than it has been divided right now.

Einlanzer.1627:

It’s only in your head that it would be broken, therefore the rest of the analogy is irrelevant.

so my opinion is irrelevant, but yours is? Oh superior being tell me what did you do to deserve to have a final say when discussion is going with opinions instead of facts.

Mirta.5029:

so let’s allow the system to be broken and cause problems, because that’s how it’s easier to do? Imagine if work project would be done this way. “I spilled my coffee on this presentation, however it was far easier to wipe the coffee away than to re-print it. If you can’t read what’s hidden behind a stain ask me and I’ll tell you what it was supposed to be”

This is the real world, they only have so many programming hours to use on different parts of the game. In this type of situation you get what are called Time/Effect Graph. A solution that uses a low amount of Time, but has a good effect is better than one that uses a huge amount of Time for a slightly better effect. It’s better to use your time on a group of jobs that give the most overall effect, than on one item. This is how businesses work.

Ratty.5176:

Mirta.5029:

so let’s allow the system to be broken and cause problems, because that’s how it’s easier to do? Imagine if work project would be done this way. “I spilled my coffee on this presentation, however it was far easier to wipe the coffee away than to re-print it. If you can’t read what’s hidden behind a stain ask me and I’ll tell you what it was supposed to be”

This is the real world, they only have so many programming hours to use on different parts of the game. In this type of situation you get what are called Time/Effect Graph. A solution that uses a low amount of Time, but has a good effect is better than one that uses a huge amount of Time for a slightly better effect. It’s better to use your time on a group of jobs that give the most overall effect, than on one item. This is how businesses work.

the suggested solution causes so much problems that it’s easiest to leave the whole thing untouched or to solve it properly. If they don’t have enough man power then it’s easier not to fix it. It’s not a bug after all. If they feel charitable they should fix it in a way that won’t enrage the community and hurt their business.

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Paradoxine.8192:

Here is the simple (not necessarily easy to implement) fix for magic find.

1. Add an extra utility slot to all weapons and armours which can optionally be fitted with a magic find infusion.

2. People who want MF will just farm it, add it and be done with it and keep all their other stats. People who don’t get it simply won’t get the bonus.

3. Encourages players to ‘finish’ their sets by getting MF infusions, much like sigils, despite not affecting gameplay.

4. ???

5. Enjoy

While they’re at it, they need to review the drop rates for many items in the game. Having only guaranteed blues for champions is a joke. The vast, vast majority of rares let alone blues are complete trash. About the only problem with changing stuff like this is that people will go farm champions and I say let them. CoF P1 will remain the undisputed king of farming regardless.

you know your suggestion is the only one so far in this thread that makes sense. Also instead of removing the whole mf gear they should replace one stat for people that own it so that those people wouldn’t end up naked.

No it isn’t. What’s the point of having a slot that’s only meant for one thing?

MF is fine exactly how it is, with the exception that it’s a detriment to people you’re grouping with. A simple fix of making it automatically average MF for all members in a group is all it needs.

That’s why my idea earlier in the thread had the slot designed for minipets, with the passive magic find on them when you pop them out, it gives a place to slot the little guys so they don’t get shoved in the bank 24/7 and gives minipets a reason to be used, kills two birds with one stone so to speak.

Obviously Explorer and Traveler stats could then be altered to give different stats i’d personally like to see explorer changed to power/precision/Healing Power but that’s my opinion obviously its up to Anet what stats they’d add.

Mirta.5029:

Ratty.5176:

Mirta.5029:

so let’s allow the system to be broken and cause problems, because that’s how it’s easier to do? Imagine if work project would be done this way. “I spilled my coffee on this presentation, however it was far easier to wipe the coffee away than to re-print it. If you can’t read what’s hidden behind a stain ask me and I’ll tell you what it was supposed to be”

This is the real world, they only have so many programming hours to use on different parts of the game. In this type of situation you get what are called Time/Effect Graph. A solution that uses a low amount of Time, but has a good effect is better than one that uses a huge amount of Time for a slightly better effect. It’s better to use your time on a group of jobs that give the most overall effect, than on one item. This is how businesses work.

the suggested solution causes so much problems that it’s easiest to leave the whole thing untouched or to solve it properly. If they don’t have enough man power then it’s easier not to fix it. It’s not a bug after all. If they feel charitable they should fix it in a way that won’t enrage the community and hurt their business.

No it doesn’t.

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Ratty.5176:

Mirta.5029:

so let’s allow the system to be broken and cause problems, because that’s how it’s easier to do? Imagine if work project would be done this way. “I spilled my coffee on this presentation, however it was far easier to wipe the coffee away than to re-print it. If you can’t read what’s hidden behind a stain ask me and I’ll tell you what it was supposed to be”

This is the real world, they only have so many programming hours to use on different parts of the game. In this type of situation you get what are called Time/Effect Graph. A solution that uses a low amount of Time, but has a good effect is better than one that uses a huge amount of Time for a slightly better effect. It’s better to use your time on a group of jobs that give the most overall effect, than on one item. This is how businesses work.

the suggested solution causes so much problems that it’s easiest to leave the whole thing untouched or to solve it properly. If they don’t have enough man power then it’s easier not to fix it. It’s not a bug after all. If they feel charitable they should fix it in a way that won’t enrage the community and hurt their business.

No it doesn’t.

I doubt it would be a large proportion of the community that would feel your way Mirta. I know in my Guild only 1 person really uses Magic Find in dungeons, the rest feel it’s a selfish stat and hurts the team. Even in this thread the majority doesn’t agree with you. I think your a subgroup of a minority. The minority being people that run Magic Find in dungeons and the subgroup those that wouldn’t prefer it to be less selfish. I believe the Majority, from talking to people fall into the camp of people that either a) don’t believe it makes enough difference to be worth the loss of stats b) don’t like running it in Dungeons as it lowers the effectiveness of the team c) don’t like running it in dungeons as they feel it is selfish.

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Ratty.5176:

Mirta.5029:

so let’s allow the system to be broken and cause problems, because that’s how it’s easier to do? Imagine if work project would be done this way. “I spilled my coffee on this presentation, however it was far easier to wipe the coffee away than to re-print it. If you can’t read what’s hidden behind a stain ask me and I’ll tell you what it was supposed to be”

This is the real world, they only have so many programming hours to use on different parts of the game. In this type of situation you get what are called Time/Effect Graph. A solution that uses a low amount of Time, but has a good effect is better than one that uses a huge amount of Time for a slightly better effect. It’s better to use your time on a group of jobs that give the most overall effect, than on one item. This is how businesses work.

the suggested solution causes so much problems that it’s easiest to leave the whole thing untouched or to solve it properly. If they don’t have enough man power then it’s easier not to fix it. It’s not a bug after all. If they feel charitable they should fix it in a way that won’t enrage the community and hurt their business.

No it doesn’t.

“my opinion matters and yours doesn’t because I said so”

Dante.1508:

That’s why my idea earlier in the thread had the slot designed for minipets, with the passive magic find on them when you pop them out, it gives a place to slot the little guys so they don’t get shoved in the bank 24/7 and gives minipets a reason to be used, kills two birds with one stone so to speak.

Obviously Explorer and Traveler stats could then be altered to give different stats i’d personally like to see explorer changed to power/precision/Healing Power but that’s my opinion obviously its up to Anet what stats they’d add.

I must have missed it. I would say that it’s a great idea

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Ratty.5176:

Mirta.5029:

so let’s allow the system to be broken and cause problems, because that’s how it’s easier to do? Imagine if work project would be done this way. “I spilled my coffee on this presentation, however it was far easier to wipe the coffee away than to re-print it. If you can’t read what’s hidden behind a stain ask me and I’ll tell you what it was supposed to be”

This is the real world, they only have so many programming hours to use on different parts of the game. In this type of situation you get what are called Time/Effect Graph. A solution that uses a low amount of Time, but has a good effect is better than one that uses a huge amount of Time for a slightly better effect. It’s better to use your time on a group of jobs that give the most overall effect, than on one item. This is how businesses work.

the suggested solution causes so much problems that it’s easiest to leave the whole thing untouched or to solve it properly. If they don’t have enough man power then it’s easier not to fix it. It’s not a bug after all. If they feel charitable they should fix it in a way that won’t enrage the community and hurt their business.

No it doesn’t.

“my opinion matters and yours doesn’t because I said so”

No it’s because my arguments are much more sound than yours.

Einlanzer.1627:

No it’s because my arguments are much more sound than yours.

says you.
Plenty of people disagree with your suggestion.
You state that if Anet takes your suggestion over anyone else’s it won’t cause a backlash.
What we see in this thread is already contradicting that sentence.
But continue boasting about how your opinion is more important than others.
Also this:

a.) I’m biased and I enjoy Magic Find as an itemized stat

yes, your arguments are so much better.

The last 3 pages are exactly why devs don’t respond to posts and good suggestions get lost in the abyss of the suggestion forums. People will rally together for a fix in 1 thread, then spend 3 pages arguing among themselves making the thread less constructive and no longer worth paying attention to. You are defeating your own purposes here, so when no answer is found to this problem blame yourselves. There is a +1 button for a reason, so that people don’t go off on a tangent why my shiny toy is better than your shiny toy. Vote the good ideas, leave the not so good ones. You are accomplishing nothing with all this back and forth bickering.

Geotherma.2395:

The last 3 pages are exactly why devs don’t respond to posts and good suggestions get lost in the abyss of the suggestion forums. People will rally together for a fix in 1 thread, then spend 3 pages arguing among themselves making the thread less constructive and no longer worth paying attention to. You are defeating your own purposes here, so when no answer is found to this problem blame yourselves.

Well, you realize, this thread already GOT the answer, the first time a dev has actually commented on MF, and it turns out they agree the current state is kitten.
But yes.

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

No it’s because my arguments are much more sound than yours.

says you.
Plenty of people disagree with your suggestion.
You state that if Anet takes your suggestion over anyone else’s it won’t cause a backlash.
What we see in this thread is already contradicting that sentence.
But continue boasting about how your opinion is more important than others.
Also this:

a.) I’m biased and I enjoy Magic Find as an itemized stat

yes, your arguments are so much better.

The backlash is disproportionately you, and good job isolating the one joking argument (which still has merit because it’s an opinion shared by many) against the backdrop of dozens of serious ones. I don’t feel that your mentality is shared by a significant number of players, mostly because it’s rooted in bad logic. No more responses.

Geotherma.2395:

The last 3 pages are exactly why devs don’t respond to posts and good suggestions get lost in the abyss of the suggestion forums. People will rally together for a fix in 1 thread, then spend 3 pages arguing among themselves making the thread less constructive and no longer worth paying attention to. You are defeating your own purposes here, so when no answer is found to this problem blame yourselves. There is a +1 button for a reason, so that people don’t go off on a tangent why my shiny toy is better than your shiny toy. Vote the good ideas, leave the not so good ones. You are accomplishing nothing with all this back and forth bickering.

Yes, it’s true. Disengaging from an argument is a tremendous exercise of willpower for anybody. kitten pride. I still say the best solution is extremely simple and obvious.

Einlanzer.1627:

The backlash is disproportionately you, and good job isolating the one joking argument (which still has merit because it’s an opinion shared by many) against the backdrop of dozens of serious ones. I don’t feel that your mentality is shared by a significant number of players, mostly because it’s wrong. No more responses.

So I suppose Paradoxine.8192 that argued against you doesn’t count and all those people that suggested other methods, that only you argued against should be ignored, because you feel superior to everyone else?
Let’s see the suggestions that I supported are made by Dante.1508, Athera.4506, Paradoxine.8192:, Svenn.5209, Geotherma.2395. Even Megis.9264 has a good idea. But I’m the minority and I’m wrong, because all opinions besides yours should be disregarded as bad.
You really have a massive ego, don’t you?

The easiest solution would seem to be disabling magic find in dungeons/fractals. You can run around cursed shore in whites and do just fine – no one in the zerg event train is going to care what you are wearing. There’s just nothing in the overworld that is remotely challenging, and magic find is a small way of incentivizing exploring the map. In dungeons and fractals, the real reward is not in mob drops – its the chests, which aren’t effected by mf. The content is also reasonably challenging for the average player, and with a 5 man group everyone counts. I’ve heard this recommended before, and honestly it seems like the easiest compromise.

rfdarko.4639:

The easiest solution would seem to be disabling magic find in dungeons/fractals. You can run around cursed shore in whites and do just fine – no one in the zerg event train is going to care what you are wearing. There’s just nothing in the overworld that is remotely challenging, and magic find is a small way of incentivizing exploring the map. In dungeons and fractals, the real reward is not in mob drops – its the chests, which aren’t effected by mf. The content is also reasonably challenging for the average player, and with a 5 man group everyone counts. I’ve heard this recommended before, and honestly it seems like the easiest compromise.

I wouldn’t necessarily have a problem with this, except it’s probably a good percentage of people who wear MF into dungeons now that would still flippantly wear it even if it did nothing for them. In other words, it’s likely it wouldn’t fully address the problem people are raising now.

I also really think if it’s balanced right MF has the potential to be an interesting dungeon/party mechanic without stepping on the toes of everything else.

Averaging MF for groups it the way to go

Einlanzer.1627:

rfdarko.4639:

The easiest solution would seem to be disabling magic find in dungeons/fractals. You can run around cursed shore in whites and do just fine – no one in the zerg event train is going to care what you are wearing. There’s just nothing in the overworld that is remotely challenging, and magic find is a small way of incentivizing exploring the map. In dungeons and fractals, the real reward is not in mob drops – its the chests, which aren’t effected by mf. The content is also reasonably challenging for the average player, and with a 5 man group everyone counts. I’ve heard this recommended before, and honestly it seems like the easiest compromise.

I wouldn’t necessarily have a problem with this, except there’s still likely be a large number of people who’d still flippantly wear MF gear into dungeons; and I really think MF has the potential to be an interesting dungeon mechanic without stepping on the toes of everything else.

I agree, it could be, but since dungeon rewards are all about the chests and tokens, mf would probably have to be reworked to be relevant. I like the idea of infusions that are either mf or agony resist, so you could have one normal and one fractals set of armor, but it seems unlikely that anet is just going to delete explorers and travelers gear. The solution I proposed is perhaps not optimal, but its very simple and I think it solves most of the issues people currently have with mf while still giving people who invested in mf most of what they want.

rfdarko.4639:

Einlanzer.1627:

rfdarko.4639:

The easiest solution would seem to be disabling magic find in dungeons/fractals. You can run around cursed shore in whites and do just fine – no one in the zerg event train is going to care what you are wearing. There’s just nothing in the overworld that is remotely challenging, and magic find is a small way of incentivizing exploring the map. In dungeons and fractals, the real reward is not in mob drops – its the chests, which aren’t effected by mf. The content is also reasonably challenging for the average player, and with a 5 man group everyone counts. I’ve heard this recommended before, and honestly it seems like the easiest compromise.

I wouldn’t necessarily have a problem with this, except there’s still likely be a large number of people who’d still flippantly wear MF gear into dungeons; and I really think MF has the potential to be an interesting dungeon mechanic without stepping on the toes of everything else.

I agree, it could be, but since dungeon rewards are all about the chests and tokens, mf would probably have to be reworked to be relevant. I like the idea of infusions that are either mf or agony resist, so you could have one normal and one fractals set of armor, but it seems unlikely that anet is just going to delete explorers and travelers gear. The solution I proposed is perhaps not optimal, but its very simple and I think it solves most of the issues people currently have with mf while still giving people who invested in mf most of what they want.

I don’t hate that idea, admittedly, but I’m curious after my flame war with Mirta if you have opposition to the idea of just averaging the MF stat for all players is and, if so, why.

ITT: People who use MF in dungeons to the detriment of their compatriots rally against OP; OP states the obvious. Anet responds with platitude.

Also, it’s “players’” not “player’s”.

But all around a good topic.

Einlanzer.1627:

rfdarko.4639:

Einlanzer.1627:

rfdarko.4639:

The easiest solution would seem to be disabling magic find in dungeons/fractals. You can run around cursed shore in whites and do just fine – no one in the zerg event train is going to care what you are wearing. There’s just nothing in the overworld that is remotely challenging, and magic find is a small way of incentivizing exploring the map. In dungeons and fractals, the real reward is not in mob drops – its the chests, which aren’t effected by mf. The content is also reasonably challenging for the average player, and with a 5 man group everyone counts. I’ve heard this recommended before, and honestly it seems like the easiest compromise.

I wouldn’t necessarily have a problem with this, except there’s still likely be a large number of people who’d still flippantly wear MF gear into dungeons; and I really think MF has the potential to be an interesting dungeon mechanic without stepping on the toes of everything else.

I agree, it could be, but since dungeon rewards are all about the chests and tokens, mf would probably have to be reworked to be relevant. I like the idea of infusions that are either mf or agony resist, so you could have one normal and one fractals set of armor, but it seems unlikely that anet is just going to delete explorers and travelers gear. The solution I proposed is perhaps not optimal, but its very simple and I think it solves most of the issues people currently have with mf while still giving people who invested in mf most of what they want.

I don’t hate that idea, admittedly, but I’m curious after my flame war with Mirta if you have opposition to the idea of just averaging the MF stat for all players is and, if so, why.

I’m not sure, but I think you are talking about making the MF stat effect the party, or have an aoe effect for people within a certain radius?

I don’t think there’s a problem with that idea per say, but I don’t know if it solves the issue as well. MF works fine in the overworld, imo, and I don’t want or need to share my mf stat with the cursed shore hoard. In terms of dungeons, again, MF is just a bad stat because mob drops don’t really matter. It’s always, always better to kill things quicker and skip everything you can when your talking about maximising loot – which is what MF is about. Even if you could share MF with your group, it doesn’t change the fact that the stat itself has very little purpose in dungeons as they currently function.

rfdarko.4639:

Einlanzer.1627:

rfdarko.4639:

Einlanzer.1627:

rfdarko.4639:

The easiest solution would seem to be disabling magic find in dungeons/fractals. You can run around cursed shore in whites and do just fine – no one in the zerg event train is going to care what you are wearing. There’s just nothing in the overworld that is remotely challenging, and magic find is a small way of incentivizing exploring the map. In dungeons and fractals, the real reward is not in mob drops – its the chests, which aren’t effected by mf. The content is also reasonably challenging for the average player, and with a 5 man group everyone counts. I’ve heard this recommended before, and honestly it seems like the easiest compromise.

I wouldn’t necessarily have a problem with this, except there’s still likely be a large number of people who’d still flippantly wear MF gear into dungeons; and I really think MF has the potential to be an interesting dungeon mechanic without stepping on the toes of everything else.

I agree, it could be, but since dungeon rewards are all about the chests and tokens, mf would probably have to be reworked to be relevant. I like the idea of infusions that are either mf or agony resist, so you could have one normal and one fractals set of armor, but it seems unlikely that anet is just going to delete explorers and travelers gear. The solution I proposed is perhaps not optimal, but its very simple and I think it solves most of the issues people currently have with mf while still giving people who invested in mf most of what they want.

I don’t hate that idea, admittedly, but I’m curious after my flame war with Mirta if you have opposition to the idea of just averaging the MF stat for all players is and, if so, why.

I’m not sure, but I think you are talking about making the MF stat effect the party, or have an aoe effect for people within a certain radius?

I don’t think there’s a problem with that idea per say, but I don’t know if it solves the issue as well. MF works fine in the overworld, imo, and I don’t want or need to share my mf stat with the cursed shore hoard. In terms of dungeons, again, MF is just a bad stat because mob drops don’t really matter. It’s always, always better to kill things quicker and skip everything you can when your talking about maximising loot – which is what MF is about. Even if you could share MF with your group, it doesn’t change the fact that the stat itself has very little purpose in dungeons as they currently function.

I’m not talking about an AoE, only sharing in parties. I totally get what you’re saying, but I think it’s a bit of a subjective conclusion. I think there are lot of folks who would argue that it would be beneficial to run MF in dungeons just for more/better loot in general considering the handicap from MF gear isn’t tremendous, which is also a subjective conclusion.

In other words, I think the fact that it’s up for debate gives merit to the idea of it working as dungeon stat this way. But, I was just curious what you had to say on the matter.

maxie.9620:

ITT: People who use MF in dungeons to the detriment of their compatriots rally against OP; OP states the obvious. Anet responds with platitude.

Also, it’s “players’” not “player’s”.

But all around a good topic.

I always hate being thrown in barrels like this when someone decides to do an ITT “summary”.

My post from earlier, as you see, I hardly ever run dungeons, and when I do, I don’t wear MF at all. (aside from the 20% infusion on my Queen’s necklace)

Lambent.6375:

I agree, around 95% of my playtime is spent in open world, so I’m usually wearing Magic find unless I’m doing a temple, or guild bounty.

Because of that, I’ve spent a lot of time building up my Magic Find gear, I’ve transmuted some of my MF weapons, and I have a couple ascended amulets both with 20% magical infusion, it would be disappointing if all of that was suddenly made obsolete, or not worth wearing.

just do something like the treasure hunter and lucky title which improved the chance of keeping your lockpick in gw1
treasure hunter wouldn’t really be a problem if you count in all the chests of the worldbosses
the lucky title just got to be the money title in gw2, perhaps make a few more ranks or whatever, you will find a way

Einlanzer.1627:

I’m not talking about an AoE, only sharing in parties. I totally get what you’re saying, but I think it’s a bit of a subjective conclusion. I think there are lot of folks who would argue that it would be beneficial to run MF in dungeons just for more/better loot in general considering the handicap from MF gear isn’t tremendous, which is also a subjective conclusion.

In other words, I think the fact that it’s up for debate gives merit to the idea of it working as dungeon stat this way. But, I was just curious what you had to say on the matter.

I do appreciate the argument that it’s player choice, and arguably if MF did provide some group benefit, it would come down to a mostly subjective argument about how good that benefit really is. If instead of disabling mf in dungeons, the stat became a party wide stat, that might be an alternative solution. It would just be a bit more complicated, because any way the stat is shared comes with some potential problems. If we use an average, some players would be loosing out on MF they payed for. Obviously we don’t want the bonuses to stack, but if the highest MF % is picked then anyone else running MF in the group has a literally useless stat. There is probably a solution, but it would take much more time to come to a reasonable compromise. I think simply disabling the stat in dungeons till a more comprehensive solution is found would alleviate most of the anger surrounding MF, while not alienating people who have invested in it.

Some fun ideas in here, we’re also actively discussing ways on how we’d best like to alleviate having to make players choose between having better stats, or using magic find. It’s not a choice that’s great for game play and there isn’t really anything that fun about it, even more so when group composition is taken into account. Ideally we’d also like to keep the ability to slowly build your magic find over time, but doing this at the cost of using better stats isn’t the right way to do that.

No ETA on any changes here, just want to point out we agree there is an issue here that goes against what we want Gw2 to be, and is something we want to address.

Wouldn’t a fairly easy way to manage this be to just add MF to everything? I mean, on current gear, there are a number of different “stat tiers”. There’s first the “one stat blues,”, then the “one stat greens,” then two-stat blue and greens, two stat yellows, three stat blue greens and yellows, and then oranges, right?

So if the goal is to not have players select for MF, but at the same time offer “tiering” to how much MF you get over time, why not just make it so that every piece of one-state blue gear offers a fixed amount of MF, so that a player in full gear gets about as much MF as a player currently wearing a full set of Pillaging Scale armor (6%, I think), and that any character with any full set of Exotic gear would have the max amount that a full set of Explorer’s gear would provide (18%?), just as a built in feature of any armor set.

Likewise all foods would provide the max amount of MF for that tier, so for example every 400 crafting recipe would offer built in +30% MF, while those in the sub-100 tier would only offer +10%MF.

Now what about the existing +MF gear and items? Just replace it with something else. Anyone currently wearing exotic Explorer armor would get the same built-in +18% MF that those in Zerker armor would now be getting, but instead of the existing MF bonus they would get points into Toughness, or Vitality, or Buff Duration, whatever stat seems like it would help. Really any stat you choose to give them would make them more combat effective than having MF in that slot, so they really wouldn’t have much room to complain.

“Really any stat you choose to give them would make them more combat effective than having MF in that slot, so they really wouldn’t have much room to complain.”

^This statement assumes way too much knowledge of the player base, it’s not all about combat for some.

Let people decide how they want to enjoy their game by giving them choice.

I think MF should be listed as a boon, to allow easy visibility, and perhaps disabling it in dungeons.

But I definitely want to keep it for general PvE, plus I would absolutely hate having to spend a ton of laurels on pithy MF valued infusions. I already have to spend/save a ton of laurals for my ascended gear anyway, AND their infusions. (because fractals suck to grind).

TL;DR: KEEP MF at current values for PvE at least, and as it’s own stat, just the way it is now.

There are still people that don’t know magic find is absolutely garbage yet?

as I see it the only problem with magic find is that other people in your group see it as a disadvantage to have you there.

my solution to the problem:
magic find adds an aura to your character which gives your allies / group members (not yourself) a buff. So each of your group-members gets a certain amount of power corresponding to your missing power. (you can then choose to give another aura like a precision aura instead of power via a small button). This buff is divided to each of the allies around.

So if you’d have 5 power but have 5 magicfind instead, all your 5 allies gain 1 power.

rfdarko.4639:

Einlanzer.1627:

I’m not talking about an AoE, only sharing in parties. I totally get what you’re saying, but I think it’s a bit of a subjective conclusion. I think there are lot of folks who would argue that it would be beneficial to run MF in dungeons just for more/better loot in general considering the handicap from MF gear isn’t tremendous, which is also a subjective conclusion.

In other words, I think the fact that it’s up for debate gives merit to the idea of it working as dungeon stat this way. But, I was just curious what you had to say on the matter.

If we use an average, some players would be loosing out on MF they payed for. Obviously we don’t want the bonuses to stack, but if the highest MF % is picked then anyone else running MF in the group has a literally useless stat.

Of the two, the average is without question the way to go. The argument you’re making against an average here is the same one Mirta was making, but my point was that you aren’t really losing out on the MF you paid for. Your MF would be lower and would be conveyed to the group, but you are also benefiting from the relatively higher combat potency of your party members.

In other words, it’s a mutual benefit. You can’t clear a dungeon on your own, you do it as a group. You are sharing your MF with the group while they are helping support you with combat aptitude. There’s a tradeoff both ways. That’s why I remain unconvinced that it isn’t the best solution.

Einlanzer.1627:

Of the two, the average is without question the way to go. The argument you’re making against an average here is the same one Mirta was making, but my point was that you aren’t really losing out on the MF you paid for. Your MF would be lower and would be conveyed to the group, but you are also benefiting from the relatively higher combat potency of your party members.

In other words, it’s a mutual benefit. You can’t clear a dungeon on your own, you do it as a group. You are sharing your MF with the group while they are helping support you with combat aptitude. There’s a tradeoff both ways. That’s why I remain unconvinced that it isn’t the best solution.

I can see how that would give you a more decent trade off, however, the averages idea has the same sort of problem that picking the highest buff does – redundancy. A party with 5 people running 50% magic find has no benefit over a party with 1 person running 50% mf, and they are doing significantly less damage. With coordination, MF could be made useful, but I think the average pug group would often encounter MF redundancy.

rfdarko.4639:

Einlanzer.1627:

Of the two, the average is without question the way to go. The argument you’re making against an average here is the same one Mirta was making, but my point was that you aren’t really losing out on the MF you paid for. Your MF would be lower and would be conveyed to the group, but you are also benefiting from the relatively higher combat potency of your party members.

In other words, it’s a mutual benefit. You can’t clear a dungeon on your own, you do it as a group. You are sharing your MF with the group while they are helping support you with combat aptitude. There’s a tradeoff both ways. That’s why I remain unconvinced that it isn’t the best solution.

I can see how that would give you a more decent trade off, however, the averages idea has the same sort of problem that picking the highest buff does – redundancy. A party with 5 people running 50% magic find has no benefit over a party with 1 person running 50% mf, and they are doing significantly less damage. With coordination, MF could be made useful, but I think the average pug group would often encounter MF redundancy.

Nay, it’s an average so everyone always contributes. A party with 5 people running 50% MF has a party MF of 50%. A party of 5 with only 1 person running 50% has a party MF of 10% but better overall combat potency.

Personally I don’t like the idea of sharing MF with the group. How selfish of you to leech off of my stats that I worked hard to get. If you want MF get your own MF gear. I do like the infusion idea. I would gladly recycle/sell my current MF gear to be able to infuse my normal gear (or have a merchant exchange MF gear for equivialnt MF infusions). I also like the idea of unlocking traits similar to WXP in order to get MF. This would be the best way to go since those stats would be independent of whatever armor I choose to wear so if I change my build I don’t have to worry losing my MF.

I added my suggestion over in the suggestion forums https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Magic-find-Fix-Suggestion/first#post1976589 since this thread went south so fast :P

I like farming with my thief who has no MF gear because i find it more fun tactic wise, I wonder what my drops would be like if I could keep my stats and still have 130+ MF.

Julie Yann.5379:

Personally I don’t like the idea of sharing MF with the group. How selfish of you to leech off of my stats that I worked hard to get. If you want MF get your own MF gear. I do like the infusion idea. I would gladly recycle/sell my current MF gear to be able to infuse my normal gear (or have a merchant exchange MF gear for equivialnt MF infusions). I also like the idea of unlocking traits similar to WXP in order to get MF. This would be the best way to go since those stats would be independent of whatever armor I choose to wear so if I change my build I don’t have to worry losing my MF.

Um.. aren’t you leeching off of their combat stats? Seriously, what is with you people? I seriously fail to get how this is so difficult to grasp.

Einlanzer.1627:

Nay, it’s an average so everyone always contributes. A party with 5 people running 50% MF has a party MF of 50%. A party of 5 with only 1 person running 50% has a party MF of 10% but better overall combat potency.

Ah, I see, your right. I still think MF is just a bad stat in dungeons, but I think it’s a subjective enough point that player freedom would be a more important consideration then deciding (rightly ) for all players that MF isn’t useful in dungeons. If averaged magic find was applied only in dungeons/fractals, where your always in a 5 man party and thus always sharing the MF, I’d probably be ok with that.

Julie Yann.5379:

Personally I don’t like the idea of sharing MF with the group. How selfish of you to leech off of my stats that I worked hard to get. If you want MF get your own MF gear. I do like the infusion idea. I would gladly recycle/sell my current MF gear to be able to infuse my normal gear (or have a merchant exchange MF gear for equivialnt MF infusions). I also like the idea of unlocking traits similar to WXP in order to get MF. This would be the best way to go since those stats would be independent of whatever armor I choose to wear so if I change my build I don’t have to worry losing my MF.

Aren’t you leeching off people who has more useful combat stats that you don’t have?

Einlanzer.1627:

Nay, it’s an average so everyone always contributes. A party with 5 people running 50% MF has a party MF of 50%. A party of 5 with only 1 person running 50% has a party MF of 10% but better overall combat potency.

If you use an average, then won’t you run into the opposite problem of folks with no MF getting kicked because they’re bringing the group down?

Group sharing of MF from gear is a bad idea. Take the MF off the gear and make it a stacking buff you earn by killing challenging mobs. The faster you can take on challenging content, the quicker you reach the MF cap, and the more mobs you kill with max MF. Dying resets your personal buff stack back to zero. No need to sacrifice effectiveness or have multiple sets of gear. Good teams/players get rewarded, and you don’t need to farm gold/laurels/karma/whatever to buy a decent set of MF gear.

rfdarko.4639:

Einlanzer.1627:

Nay, it’s an average so everyone always contributes. A party with 5 people running 50% MF has a party MF of 50%. A party of 5 with only 1 person running 50% has a party MF of 10% but better overall combat potency.

Ah, I see, your right. I still think MF is just a bad stat in dungeons, but I think it’s a subjective enough point that player freedom would be a more important consideration then deciding (rightly ) for all players that MF isn’t useful in dungeons. If averaged magic find was applied only in dungeons/fractals, where your always in a 5 man party and thus always sharing the MF, I’d probably be ok with that.

It’s essentially rooted in the notion that you’re always supporting each other in a group, even if indirectly, regardless of the composition of builds, etc. You benefit as much from teaming with the high DPS berserker warrior as he does teaming with you for your MF gear, and vice versa.

I’m very confident that it’s the best solution at least in terms of practical solutions.

MF adds aura which buffs allies (but not yourself of course) —> problem solved