Guild Wars 2

They should share MF so when you wear it they won’t kick you.

It’s just that simple. Why would people want to work harder because you have sacrificed stats for MF just so that YOU can get better loot?

Someone in Soldier’s gear can live longer and be able to buy more time to res fallen allies, at the very least. That isn’t useless, at all. Just because people don’t like it, doesn’t mean it has no value. MF gear in a 5 person dungeon context is imposing an objective burden on the others in every case, unless you’re agreeing to share drops, which I doubt is the case.

Fine. Just play however one wants. Just don’t complain when you get kicked and whine due to “elitism”. MF sharing only benefits people who are wearing MF gear, because then it’ll help everyone.

Nothing wrong with MF gear in easy content. If you’re running through dailies in Queensdale, nobody’s gonna care. You obviously don’t need zerker gear there. Just don’t expect to be welcome everywhere.

And why stack so much MF anyways? 5 pirate runes +1 traveler runes =60 MF already. at the cost of ~18% crit damage. Add a magical infusion to your amulet for 80. Add a MF food for 110.

Pandemoniac.4739:

Einlanzer.1627:

Regardless, if you use the average, players with lower MF ‘drag down’ the players with higher MF in the exact same way that players with lower combat stats ‘drag down’ players with higher combat stats. They would be ‘taking advantage’ of your MF in the exact same way you would be ‘taking advantage’ of their superior combat prowess.

This is exactly how it should work. I really am running out of ways to make it more clear.

I can quantify how much averaging MF across the group impacts me. You have nothing other than your perception that me having MF on my gear impacts my performance at all. You don’t know my build or my play style and I’m fairly confident I could change my MF significantly mid dungeon and you would never notice.

Sure I can. You may be a very skilled player who does very well in dungeons with MF on, but you would still do better without it by a quantifiable amount. I’m sure I wouldn’t notice you changing out of or into MF gear in a dungeon, neither in the case of MF itself or your other performance parameters. That’s because the effects are small. That is, however, beside the point.

You should look at what behavior your solution encourages, not how it would work ideally. Folks would want everyone else to have high MF while they themselves had the highest DPS so they could get more damage contribution for drops and still have MF. Encouraging DPSers to take advantage of the MFers is not a solution.

I still don’t see how this is a problem. It’s easy to tag mobs whether you’re wearing all MF or no MF, so that’s really a nonissue. If 4 people are wearing 100% MF and he’s wearing none, they all still get 80% MF while benefiting from his DPS.

Pandemoniac.4739:

I can quantify how much averaging MF across the group impacts me. You have nothing other than your perception that me having MF on my gear impacts my performance at all. You don’t know my build or my play style and I’m fairly confident I could change my MF significantly mid dungeon and you would never notice.

This kind of says it all. There’s been no data to show that MF has an appreciable impact on gameplay. That is to say, the effect is so minimal that it may as well not be considered.

Imagine what you would need to prove otherwise. You’d need a representative sample of all players, and hundreds iterations of dungeons or events with and without a single player’s magic find (and the others are a control). You’d need to look at the p-values to see what’s the likelihood that you may have received these results by chance alone. And to quantify what? Time of completion? Sales revenue from posting rare drops on the TP? Overall player satisfaction?

Magic find has no place in a PUG berserker CoF farming run, where an extra 6 seconds tick people off. But everywhere else, it really doesn’t matter. The players, and their cooperation and skill is what matters. Different players can deliver different results with different sets, and to judge them only on numbers is very narrow-minded.

Why is it bad in group play?
This is the real issue with Magic Find and a sole reason it should not be in the game…
The person using Magic Find gear contributes the least, but get’s the best reward.
Why does this make sense? A huge design flaw.
You are giving up offensive potential and wasting time. You are not only wasting your time, you are also wasting your groups. Wasting other players’ time is selfish & rude.

I do agree on that. I hate magic find in every games i play since in my head, im trying to get the best gear but to get it i need to downgrade myself to use a stat that often feel mandatory. Magic find should be a bonus, not a must.

Like he said, if someone in his group is running magic find then he is lacking one of the main stats which then make him less effective. Which would be fine if other would benefit from it but no, the player is less efficient to get more reward for himself. So it kinda give the picture of a ball and chain. You need to carry that person through the dungeon and what do you get for it? nothing, he get more loot then you do (basic concept of magic find, i dont argue about the numbers and such)

If the team would get benefit from it, i wouldnt be against. But why work harder so that someone can be selfish?

I was not talking about the numbers but mostly about the global concept of magic find and why i think its a bad concept.

Tony.6028:

Pandemoniac.4739:

I can quantify how much averaging MF across the group impacts me. You have nothing other than your perception that me having MF on my gear impacts my performance at all. You don’t know my build or my play style and I’m fairly confident I could change my MF significantly mid dungeon and you would never notice.

This kind of says it all. There’s been no data to show that MF has an appreciable impact on gameplay. That is to say, the effect is so minimal that it may as well not be considered.

Imagine what you would need to prove otherwise. You’d need a representative sample of all players, and hundreds iterations of dungeons or events with and without a single player’s magic find (and the others are a control). You’d need to look at the p-values to see what’s the likelihood that you may have received these results by chance alone. And to quantify what? Time of completion? Sales revenue from posting rare drops on the TP? Overall player satisfaction?

Magic find has no place in a PUG berserker CoF farming run, where an extra 6 seconds tick people off. But everywhere else, it really doesn’t matter. The players, and their cooperation and skill is what matters. Different players can deliver different results with different sets, and to judge them only on numbers is very narrow-minded.

I’m no elitist, and I would agree with this 100% from a player perspective. However, it really isn’t about the numbers or the potential impact, it’s more about the MF attribute as a concept.

Regardless of how much of a real impact having or not has in a group, it still has the sole distinction of being the only stat which benefits only you at the expense of benefiting a group. This is a game design flaw at the conceptual level that needs to be addressed in some way.

Einlanzer.1627:

Tony.6028:

Pandemoniac.4739:

I can quantify how much averaging MF across the group impacts me. You have nothing other than your perception that me having MF on my gear impacts my performance at all. You don’t know my build or my play style and I’m fairly confident I could change my MF significantly mid dungeon and you would never notice.

This kind of says it all. There’s been no data to show that MF has an appreciable impact on gameplay. That is to say, the effect is so minimal that it may as well not be considered.

Imagine what you would need to prove otherwise. You’d need a representative sample of all players, and hundreds iterations of dungeons or events with and without a single player’s magic find (and the others are a control). You’d need to look at the p-values to see what’s the likelihood that you may have received these results by chance alone. And to quantify what? Time of completion? Sales revenue from posting rare drops on the TP? Overall player satisfaction?

Magic find has no place in a PUG berserker CoF farming run, where an extra 6 seconds tick people off. But everywhere else, it really doesn’t matter. The players, and their cooperation and skill is what matters. Different players can deliver different results with different sets, and to judge them only on numbers is very narrow-minded.

I’m no elitist, and I would agree with this 100% from a player perspective. However, it really isn’t about the numbers or the potential impact, it’s more about the MF attribute as a concept.

Regardless of how much of a real impact having or not has in a group, it still has the sole distinction of being the only stat which benefits only you at the expense of benefiting a group. This is a game design flaw at the conceptual level that needs to be addressed in some way.

i agree with this. Like you said “its not about the numbers or the potential impact” but about one get to have more loot while the other “do more work” as a concept.

Im sure the impact would be quite bigger if the full group doing dungeon had all magic find. Of course if only one of the five players has magic find it wont really be apparent but i think if everyone had it, it would make for a much weaker group.

If stats werent making that much of an impact, why is not everyone wearing magic find gear as of right now?

I have no idea why people think running magic find won’t hurt your damage or whatever. You lose all critical damage. I run a full berserker warrior every where. Now if I wear magic find and do a damage comparison, no way in hell would I hit 15k eviscerates, and 30k+ 100b. In fights, that’s huge!

Oh Snapalope.1378:

I have no idea why people think running magic find won’t hurt your damage or whatever. You lose all critical damage. I run a full berserker warrior every where. Now if I wear magic find and do a damage comparison, no way in hell would I hit 15k eviscerates, and 30k+ 100b. In fights, that’s huge!

I would love to see a 4 Warrior and 1 Mesmer team run CoF 3 times in Zerk and then 3 times in the Magic Find Equivalent. My guess is that there would be a lot more deaths and everything would take considerably longer.

Guys, I have an idea, I think good one. Look at Diablo 3’s Valor of Nephelem. It is buff which stacks few times, each stack makes you get more MF and GF. And you get stacks by killing bosses. I think this could reduce problem of boss-skipping in dungeons, however would require recalculating some dungeons and deciding which bosses give that boon. Also I could be difficult to make this buff be more tempting to have than MF gear, and not too big in same time.

Ratty.5176:

Oh Snapalope.1378:

I have no idea why people think running magic find won’t hurt your damage or whatever. You lose all critical damage. I run a full berserker warrior every where. Now if I wear magic find and do a damage comparison, no way in hell would I hit 15k eviscerates, and 30k+ 100b. In fights, that’s huge!

I would love to see a 4 Warrior and 1 Mesmer team run CoF 3 times in Zerk and then 3 times in the Magic Find Equivalent. My guess is that there would be a lot more deaths and everything would take considerably longer.

having in mind that both gear sets have no toughness or vitality I would say that while it would take longer, death count would not increase. That said it would be an interesting experiment to see how much longer would it take. If anyone could film it I would be happy to watch

It’s interesting to me that people looking for a solution to a problem where people complain about a party member lacking a bit of stats claim that if mf stats were shared, people would not complain about a party member lacking a bit of stats. If anything, it adds another stat for party members to get upset about. Remove any handicap or benefit to other players from the mf equation, and they’re left with complaining about player skill.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Some fun ideas in here, we’re also actively discussing ways on how we’d best like to alleviate having to make players choose between having better stats, or using magic find. It’s not a choice that’s great for game play and there isn’t really anything that fun about it, even more so when group composition is taken into account. Ideally we’d also like to keep the ability to slowly build your magic find over time, but doing this at the cost of using better stats isn’t the right way to do that.

No ETA on any changes here, just want to point out we agree there is an issue here that goes against what we want Gw2 to be, and is something we want to address.

Get rid of magic find from gear. Give a magic find stat line next to your other stats, starts at 0 and is capped = to your level. 1 point is 1%. Buy 1 point with 1 skill point whenever you want. Add a couple achievements that can boost the cap. done and done…

- I’m not sure what they should do to MF runes and sigils then (adding +5% MF to every superior rune and redo stats of current MF runes?)

That’d be my vote. Just negate any item that gives more MF than anything else (the Gem Store boosters and Guild banners can keep that effect since they stack with other similar effects, it isn’t "MF OR +damage).

If you have stacks of Omnomberry bars, you’d get the same MF from them that you do now, you’d just also get something else on top of that, like +Power or whatever. If you have stacks of Mango pie, you’d get the same effects you do now, plus 30% MF.

MF gear does not benefit the party that is true. BUT gear itself doesn´t make you a better player. Who says that the guy isn´t beneficial to the party. If he stays alive, heal others, deal damage, revive, etc. than he is usefull much more than zerkers that go down much faster, or thieves and elementalists. Im not saying that either of these classes are worse or better than the rest of em. It is a choice of the player. And it is YOU not the gear that makes you good at the game and/or anything else.

A good player in MF gear is better than a bad player in Zerker gear, totally true. But the player in MF gear is STILL being selfish by putting his own profit ahead of the group, because that good player would be MORE help to the group if he had gear that maximized his combat roll. If he’s a solid DPS in MF gear, then he’d be a great DPS in Zerker gear. If he’s a solid tank in MF gear then he’d be a great tank in Knight or Cleric gear, or an equally solid tank with way better bonus DPS with Valkyrie or some other combo.

Basically, anyone wearing MF gear is not automatically worse than any player with other gearing, but they are automatically worse than they could be, and that’s selfish. It is saying that “my personal reward is more important than all of us getting through this as fast and as safely as we would otherwise.”

Does Gold Bonus Find should be also shared? Karma Bonus? Experience one? All are selfish though.

If they are exclusive benefits? Yes. But that I mean, if they are “either or.” If the game gives you an option of boosting EITHER karma OR a useful combat stat, then that should be changed. Guild Banners and Gem Store boosts can keep these effects, since you can stack as many of these as you like, but players should never be able to choose between “I want something that boosts only my own reward levels, OR I could use something that will improve my performance within the group.” Selfish personal benefits should always be in addition to performance boosts.

And one more thing – you are complaining about Explorer set. I do not see a point here. It gives you 18% to MF. 5 runes (Noble, Traveler, Pirate) gives you 50%.
So question : are you fine with Full berserker with Pirate runes?

I think most people are using “Explorers” just as a shorthand for “MF gear.” The same arguments would obviously apply to the various runes, sigils, and other +MF options.

Gold actually is (Noble rune, Gold infusion – where power should go). And you are wrong. I agree that you should rewarded – you are providing damage. Good for you. So lets see – You didn’t do anything to boost your MF. But you want to have fair share from my MF. Ok. Let’s be it. But one condition – your power will be shared (averaged). Precision as well. Seems fair? You are taking advantage of me, I’m taking of you.

That’s the problem though, their Power and Precision is already being shared with you. Any extra damage they deal is damage that you don’t have to. Their power and precision mean that the enemies you’re fighting die faster. That’s the problem with MF gear, the extra MF you have means that you get more loot per hour than they do, while their added damage benefits everyone. I’m not an elitist, I don’t drive out people for using MF gear, but don’t try to pretend that it isn’t purely selfish behavior.

having in mind that both gear sets have no toughness or vitality I would say that while it would take longer, death count would not increase. That said it would be an interesting experiment to see how much longer would it take. If anyone could film it I would be happy to watch

Keep in mind that the best defense is a good offense. If the group is killing things in half the time then the enemies have half the chance to kill one of them. MF gear doesn’t have Toughness either. Conversely, they could run with Knight or Cleric gear, and maybe not kill things as fast as in MF gear, but would not die as often either. Any gear they wear (assuming they have the build to support those stats) would be better than MF gear.

There’s nothing selfish in having a sub-optimal build. Nobody is obligated to wear the gear you think is optimal. People like wearing MF gear. They want to wear MF gear.

The game is balanced so that even people with blue/green gear can handle it. Every time you play with people in non-exotics, you have a sub-optimal group. A player in exotic mf gear can handle things much better than the same player in green non-MF gear.

As long as someone thinks that he has enough stats, he can add as much MF as he wants, and it’s not selfish in any way.

Nobody owes you anything, you have no reason to call other people selfish because of their gear choice.

AntiGw.9367:

Nobody owes you anything, you have no reason to call other people selfish because of their gear choice.

I agree with the bold, so if I don’t like a leech and bad player (an MF user) then I can freely not party with him, oh wait, they can link their other set to cover their uselessness… so I can’t really avoid the leeches.

What everybody that is pro MF is missing that MF users had all the choice in the universe to get other gear, bad they didn’t to fullfill their selfish desires that contribute nothing to the party. Someone that is low level has NO CHOICE but to bring lower quality gear, someone with GREENS has NO CHOICE but to bring his greens, someone with FULL exotic/ascended had all the choice in the universe to get a non-MF set, therefore I should be free not to party with those players because I DISLIKE their intent, I don’t care if they are good players or not.

I’d take someone that is a newbie in the game with full greens, over a veteran with exotic MF gear, the first didn’t have a choice, he is still learning/leveling, the second had all the choice to get the “good” gear and chose not to, therefore he thinks only for himself, he is a selfish coward for me and I don’t want anything with those leeches.

It’s funny how people pro-MF call people elitist when they care what gear the other players wear when they are the real elitisists who want to party up with losers to drag them through a dungeon as they INTENTIONALLY got lower gear…

So MF players are selfish, leeches and cowards now? Get off your high horse.

You play with people, not with their gear. If someone feels that he can handle anything the game can throw at them, it’s not your kittening business to tell them what they should or shouldn’t be wearing.

maddoctor.2738:

I agree with the bold, so if I don’t like a leech and bad player (an MF user) then I can freely not party with him, oh wait, they can link their other set to cover their uselessness… so I can’t really avoid the leeches.

so you accuse any bad player of wearing mf gear? How do you know that it wasn’t their real gear that they linked?

maddoctor.2738:

What everybody that is pro MF is missing that MF users had all the choice in the universe to get other gear, bad they didn’t to fullfill their selfish desires that contribute nothing to the party. Someone that is low level has NO CHOICE but to bring lower quality gear, someone with GREENS has NO CHOICE but to bring his greens, someone with FULL exotic/ascended had all the choice in the universe to get a non-MF set, therefore I should be free not to party with those players because I DISLIKE their intent, I don’t care if they are good players or not.

So those two other stats and the player contribute nothing at all? What do they do? Stand there? Don’t even attack the mobs or something? If you don’t like the gear you have all the freedom in the world to do gear checks for your party.

maddoctor.2738:

It’s funny how people pro-MF call people elitist when they care what gear the other players wear when they are the real elitisists who want to party up with losers to drag them through a dungeon as they INTENTIONALLY got lower gear…

so people who party up with anyone without discriminating their play style and don’t call other people losers are elitists? Yeah. Right.

MF gear (Explorer specifically) loses 1/3 of the offensive stats compared to Berserk for 0 group benefits. Using MF gear is the same as a player that AFKs for 1/3 of the dungeon and still gets the same rights to loot than the rest of the team. IE, he’s a leech.

There’s nothing selfish in having a sub-optimal build. Nobody is obligated to wear the gear you think is optimal. People like wearing MF gear. They want to wear MF gear.

Wearing gear that only benefits you, while hurting the effectiveness of the group as a whole, is unarguably selfish. It’s not an opinion, it is a fact, based on the definitions of the words.

You’re free to argue that it’s OK to be selfish, but you cannot argue that it is not being selfish.

The game is balanced so that even people with blue/green gear can handle it. Every time you play with people in non-exotics, you have a sub-optimal group. A player in exotic mf gear can handle things much better than the same player in green non-MF gear.

True enough, but does anyone deliberately choose to wear blue/green gear over exotics? If someone is wearing blue/green gear because it’s the best they have available then that is not being selfish, they are trying their best, and that’s all that can be expected. Choosing to acquire and wear MF gear is making a selfish choice, it’s saying “I could choose to be the best that I can be, but instead I will benefit myself.”

The only way a character could be in MF gear without making a selfish choice is if ALL of it was dropped, none of it purchased, and if each piece were better than anything else that he had, or could reasonably afford. If the player is that lucky then I doubt he’d need the MF gear in the first place.

stof.9341:

MF gear (Explorer specifically) loses 1/3 of the offensive stats compared to Berserk for 0 group benefits. Using MF gear is the same as a player that AFKs for 1/3 of the dungeon and still gets the same rights to loot than the rest of the team. IE, he’s a leech.

Well not quite.. He has greater rights to loot, while missing 1/3 of his offensive stats.

MF gear (Explorer specifically) loses 1/3 of the offensive stats compared to Berserk for 0 group benefits. Using MF gear is the same as a player that AFKs for 1/3 of the dungeon and still gets the same rights to loot than the rest of the team. IE, he’s a leech.

It’s actually more than 1/3, it’s 2/5 of the effectiveness, since the MF slot takes the “primary” stat slot. Stats are distrusted 40/30/30, not 33/33/33, and Mf eliminates the 40% slot, not one of the 40%s.

Ohoni.6057:

There’s nothing selfish in having a sub-optimal build. Nobody is obligated to wear the gear you think is optimal. People like wearing MF gear. They want to wear MF gear.

Wearing gear that only benefits you, while hurting the effectiveness of the group as a whole, is unarguably selfish. It’s not an opinion, it is a fact, based on the definitions of the words.

You’re free to argue that it’s OK to be selfish, but you cannot argue that it is not being selfish.

The game is balanced so that even people with blue/green gear can handle it. Every time you play with people in non-exotics, you have a sub-optimal group. A player in exotic mf gear can handle things much better than the same player in green non-MF gear.

True enough, but does anyone deliberately choose to wear blue/green gear over exotics? If someone is wearing blue/green gear because it’s the best they have available then that is not being selfish, they are trying their best, and that’s all that can be expected. Choosing to acquire and wear MF gear is making a selfish choice, it’s saying “I could choose to be the best that I can be, but instead I will benefit myself.”

The only way a character could be in MF gear without making a selfish choice is if ALL of it was dropped, none of it purchased, and if each piece were better than anything else that he had, or could reasonably afford. If the player is that lucky then I doubt he’d need the MF gear in the first place.

The game is balanced for blue/green gear. Any stats above that are a bonus.

No part of the game is balanced around everyone wearing full exotics and ascended gear. People can equip any bonus they want, and it doesn’t make them selfish. THEY ARE NOT SELFISH.

AntiGw.9367:

The game is balanced for blue/green gear. Any stats above that are a bonus.

No part of the game is balanced around everyone wearing full exotics and ascended gear. People can equip any bonus they want, and it doesn’t make them selfish. THEY ARE NOT SELFISH.

Once upon a time, a MF player was walking down a path and reached a fork. On the left, there was a sign written : “Berzerker gear : your party will kill stuff fast”. On the right it was written : “Explorer gear : your party will will kill stuff slower but you’ll get twice as much loot”. And the MF guy took the right path because he doesn’t care about the other players in his party but he gets more loot so that’s all that matters for him.

stof.9341:

AntiGw.9367:

The game is balanced for blue/green gear. Any stats above that are a bonus.

No part of the game is balanced around everyone wearing full exotics and ascended gear. People can equip any bonus they want, and it doesn’t make them selfish. THEY ARE NOT SELFISH.

Once upon a time, a MF player was walking down a path and reached a fork. On the left, there was a sign written : “Berzerker gear : your party will kill stuff fast”. On the right it was written : “Explorer gear : your party will will kill stuff slower but you’ll get twice as much loot”. And the MF guy took the right path because he doesn’t care about the other players in his party but he gets more loot so that’s all that matters for him.

The MF guy took the right path because he knows that the party kills stuff fast enough already, and he doesn’t feel insecure about his own performance.

The game is balanced for blue/green gear. Any stats above that are a bonus.

And if other members of the group have those bonus stats and you don’t, then they are carrying some of your load. It’s not about what you need, it’s about what you bring. If you come to a fight using MF gear then you are not dealing as much damage (or being able to take as much) as someone in other gear. If the rest of the group has built their stats in the way that makes the content most efficient, and you are instead basing your gear on what gives you the most reward, then that is being selfish.

Basically, if a team has five members, all in the best stat gear they can get (even if that means blue/greens), and they can complete a given dungeon run in 20 minutes, then if one of those members swaps out their gear for MF gear of equal quality, they will see a 2/5 drop in their personal performance. That means a 2/25th drop in the overall performance of the group, or basically an 8% drop in group efficiency, which averages out to taking 96 seconds longer to complete the content, and that’s assuming no additional deaths along the way.

The rest of the grou kitten lowed down by this loss of efficiency, while getting nothing in return. The MFer gets this same slowdown, but gets a massive increase in the chances for them to acquire good loot. They benefit, the group is harmed, regardless of where the minimum balance point might be.

No part of the game is balanced around everyone wearing full exotics and ascended gear. People can equip any bonus they want, and it doesn’t make them selfish. THEY ARE NOT SELFISH.

I covered this. Wearing sub-par gear because it’s the best you can afford is not being selfish, you’re doing the best you can. Wearing sub-par gear DELIBERATELY because it BENEFITS YOU TO DO SO is most definitely, 100%, unequivocally selfish. You cannot argue otherwise, it is the definition of the term. You can argue that it’s OK to be selfish, you cannot argue that benefiting yourself at the expense of others is not being selfish.

AntiGw.9367:

The MF guy took the right path because he knows that the party kills stuff fast enough already, and he doesn’t feel insecure about his own performance.

I guess one cannot admit they are selfish, but the other people around you know the truth.

I’m still amazed by how much denial the MF users are capable of.

Ohoni.6057:

The game is balanced for blue/green gear. Any stats above that are a bonus.

And if other members of the group have those bonus stats and you don’t, then they are carrying some of your load. It’s not about what you need, it’s about what you bring. If you come to a fight using MF gear then you are not dealing as much damage (or being able to take as much) as someone in other gear. If the rest of the group has built their stats in the way that makes the content most efficient, and you are instead basing your gear on what gives you the most reward, then that is being selfish.

Basically, if a team has five members, all in the best stat gear they can get (even if that means blue/greens), and they can complete a given dungeon run in 20 minutes, then if one of those members swaps out their gear for MF gear of equal quality, they will see a 2/5 drop in their personal performance. That means a 2/25th drop in the overall performance of the group, or basically an 8% drop in group efficiency, which averages out to taking 96 seconds longer to complete the content, and that’s assuming no additional deaths along the way.

The rest of the grou kitten lowed down by this loss of efficiency, while getting nothing in return. The MFer gets this same slowdown, but gets a massive increase in the chances for them to acquire good loot. They benefit, the group is harmed, regardless of where the minimum balance point might be.

No part of the game is balanced around everyone wearing full exotics and ascended gear. People can equip any bonus they want, and it doesn’t make them selfish. THEY ARE NOT SELFISH.

I covered this. Wearing sub-par gear because it’s the best you can afford is not being selfish, you’re doing the best you can. Wearing sub-par gear DELIBERATELY because it BENEFITS YOU TO DO SO is most definitely, 100%, unequivocally selfish. You cannot argue otherwise, it is the definition of the term. You can argue that it’s OK to be selfish, you cannot argue that benefiting yourself at the expense of others is not being selfish.

Look, just because YOU decided to use pimped out gear to kill stuff faster than normal (blue/green) doesn’t mean everyone else should do it as well.

Just because you have an efficiency fetish, doesn’t mean that everyone else should cater to that.

The loot is an important part of the game, and people like looting stuff. If you want to loot less stuff in order to kill it faster, IT’S YOUR kittenING PROBLEM.

From dictionary.com:

self·ish [sel-fish]
adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
“concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare” (personal drops) “regardless of others” (reduced group effectiveness without the group getting anything from it)

Sure seems that intentionally making your group worse for your own singular benefit matches the definition of selfish to a tee.

stof.9341:

AntiGw.9367:

The MF guy took the right path because he knows that the party kills stuff fast enough already, and he doesn’t feel insecure about his own performance.

I guess one cannot admit they are selfish, but the other people around you know the truth.

I’m still amazed by how much denial the MF users are capable of.

It really is amazing. I am in utter astonishment about how many comments from people opposing the idea of sharing along the lines of “I don’t want people leeching on my MF” I’ve seen in this thread.

AntiGw.9367:

So MF players are selfish, leeches and cowards now? Get off your high horse.

You play with people, not with their gear. If someone feels that he can handle anything the game can throw at them, it’s not your kittening business to tell them what they should or shouldn’t be wearing.

They are leeches because they offer less but are rewarded more, they are selfish because they use stats that do not benefit the party at all, they ARE cowards because they hide their gear. It’s my kittening business to play with people who don’t laugh on my face, is that understood? Or you wanted painted? Why is it so hard to understand? People learn manners at school and from their family at a young age, or at least they should be. Learning to respect others is also important, using leeching gear means you don’t respect others, plain and simple, you laugh at them for pulling you through content.

And get this through your thick head:

I’d take someone that is a newbie in the game with full greens, over a veteran with exotic MF gear, the first didn’t have a choice, he is still learning/leveling, the second had all the choice to get the “good” gear and chose not to, therefore he thinks only for himself, he is a selfish coward for me and I don’t want anything with those leeches.

I hope it is enough for anyone to understand what is going on.

AntiGw.9367:

stof.9341:

AntiGw.9367:

The game is balanced for blue/green gear. Any stats above that are a bonus.

No part of the game is balanced around everyone wearing full exotics and ascended gear. People can equip any bonus they want, and it doesn’t make them selfish. THEY ARE NOT SELFISH.

Once upon a time, a MF player was walking down a path and reached a fork. On the left, there was a sign written : “Berzerker gear : your party will kill stuff fast”. On the right it was written : “Explorer gear : your party will will kill stuff slower but you’ll get twice as much loot”. And the MF guy took the right path because he doesn’t care about the other players in his party but he gets more loot so that’s all that matters for him.

The MF guy took the right path because he knows that the party kills stuff fast enough already, and he doesn’t feel insecure about his own performance.

Please then, make a test for us all to prove us. Take a full party of people in green magic find gear and roll through a dungeon.

You know for like 10 silver i would get a full set of armor, jewelry and weapons (green quality) of lvl 80 for magic find. Why dont i wear it and get extra loot? Because im losing a vital stats that make me better, that help my group.

People already hate to roll with new people in explorable, i had all the hard time in the world making my place. These stats for me are not extra.

I would love a link too where the devs says the dungeons are balanced for blues and greens. I dont really believe that assesment but i would gladly love to be proven wrong.

Its true that you dont owe others anything but same as the other dont owe you anything. If i could say that “this” guy wear magic find, im sorry but i would never invite it.

If regular gear doesnt make a difference since all can be done in blues, why is it that nobody wear that magic find armor? I asked around today, nobody got a set because nobody want to lose their good stats for this and impair the group by selfishness.

You know, i would love an answer to that because if stats doesnt make that much difference, like losing lets say 11 possible slots of a stats which can had up to 500+ of a single stats. (lets say 11 pieces at 50 toughness to replace with magic find for the exemple).

I do see the difference when i take a talent that convert 5% of my toughness in precision which equal perhaps to 90-100. Losing 500 toughness to replace it with magic find, i think it will make a difference on how squishy ill be.

But please, make the test, prove that it doesnt matter for me to wear my regular set over my magic find, like that everyone will ditch it and well be able to run 5 people in a dungeon in full MF

The party kill fast enough because they make a build, select skills and gear up accordingly to make it easier. You bringing your MF gear is going backward , so you are getting carried. Better exemple if you were played the game. Bringing someone with magic find its like in World of warcraft back in cataclysm or other expension before where you were 4 good people in the party and the last one was a full pvp geared player. Thats the same thing

Mirta.5029:

so you accuse any bad player of wearing mf gear? How do you know that it wasn’t their real gear that they linked?

That’s the problem. I don’t.

So those two other stats and the player contribute nothing at all? What do they do? Stand there? Don’t even attack the mobs or something? If you don’t like the gear you have all the freedom in the world to do gear checks for your party.

But the game doesn’t allow me to root out the garbage (MF users) they can ping other gear if they want to.

so people who party up with anyone without discriminating their play style and don’t call other people losers are elitists? Yeah. Right.

You require other people to join with you to get your fat loot at their expense and then dare to talk back about elitisism? You say people who don’t want others to laugh at their expense elitists? You say people who want equal rewards, rewards BY SKILL and not by MF extra stats elitists?

And since you conviently missed to quote the most important part I will requote it. Maybe now we can talk about that and who is the elitists (hint: look at the mirror)

I’d take someone that is a newbie in the game with full greens, over a veteran with exotic MF gear, the first didn’t have a choice, he is still learning/leveling, the second had all the choice to get the “good” gear and chose not to, therefore he thinks only for himself, he is a selfish coward for me and I don’t want anything with those leeches.

AntiGw.9367:

stof.9341:

AntiGw.9367:

The game is balanced for blue/green gear. Any stats above that are a bonus.

No part of the game is balanced around everyone wearing full exotics and ascended gear. People can equip any bonus they want, and it doesn’t make them selfish. THEY ARE NOT SELFISH.

Once upon a time, a MF player was walking down a path and reached a fork. On the left, there was a sign written : “Berzerker gear : your party will kill stuff fast”. On the right it was written : “Explorer gear : your party will will kill stuff slower but you’ll get twice as much loot”. And the MF guy took the right path because he doesn’t care about the other players in his party but he gets more loot so that’s all that matters for him.

The MF guy took the right path because he knows that the party kills stuff fast enough already, and he doesn’t feel insecure about his own performance.

How about killing even faster and not laughing at the expense of others? How about being social and not a selfish person who uses (and abuses) others for personal benefit? How about someone that puts the team above and is not a loot freak?

AntiGw.9367:

Look, just because YOU decided to use pimped out gear to kill stuff faster than normal (blue/green) doesn’t mean everyone else should do it as well.

And that doesn’t mean that I have to carry you through a dungeon when you deliberately made the choice to lower your effectiveness while I didn’t, guess who is thinking of himself and doesn’t care about the party at all. Hint: you.

Just because you have an efficiency fetish, doesn’t mean that everyone else should cater to that.

The loot is an important part of the game, and people like looting stuff. If you want to loot less stuff in order to kill it faster, IT’S YOUR kittenING PROBLEM.

You got it all wrong, unless I’m mistaken dungeons are group effort, MF users deliberately lower their effiency for personal gain, that’s selfish and beyond unacceptable.

IT IS MY KITTENING PROBLEM to now party up with people that LAUGH AT ME and get more loot while I DO ALL THE WORK

gimmethegepgun.1284:

From dictionary.com:

self·ish [sel-fish]
adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
“concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare” (personal drops) “regardless of others” (reduced group effectiveness without the group getting anything from it)

Sure seems that intentionally making your group worse for your own singular benefit matches the definition of selfish to a tee.

^^+1

I wonder why anyone can deny that using MF gear is as selfish as it can get and has absolutely no use in a party environment.

Look, just because YOU decided to use pimped out gear to kill stuff faster than normal (blue/green) doesn’t mean everyone else should do it as well.

Just because you have an efficiency fetish, doesn’t mean that everyone else should cater to that.

Fair enough, but it’s still being selfish to choose your own personal benefit over that of the group’s.

It’s ok to be selfish though, just be honest with yourself about what you’re doing. We’re trying to figure out ways to make MF work that don’t require people to be selfish to benefit from it.

The loot is an important part of the game, and people like looting stuff. If you want to loot less stuff in order to kill it faster, IT’S YOUR kittenING PROBLEM.

That’s actually not the problem. The problem goes back to something you said earlier, that if other players got a share of your MF stat, that they should also “share their Power and Precision with you.” The problem is that they already do, by making the run faster.

If everyone in a group could complete a run in 20 minutes wearing “peak efficiency” gear, then if they all wore MF gear they would take an additional 8 minutes to complete the run, meaning that instead of being able to do three runs in an hour, they could only do two. That means that the MF group would get only 2/3 as many opportunities for drops as the “efficiency” group, but they would have a higher chance of getting good drops on each opportunity, so they would likely do fine.

Either of these groups are fair, because everyone benefits equally.

Now, let’s take the 4/5 group, in which four members are “peak efficiency,” and one is an MFer. In this group, they would end up taking 96 seconds longer per run, meaning one less run out of every thirteen, not a huge difference, but a difference nonetheless. Now, in this group, each of the four efficiency players see NO benefit from the MFer’s choice. They just have a slower than optimal run with no benefits to them whatsoever. The MFer, on the other hand, makes out great. He gets to do a run that is 6.5 minutes faster than in a group full of MFers, meaning he can do more runs per hour (or just do the run and get on with his life faster), AND he gets the full luck boost of his MF stat, meaning he’ll have just as good a drop rate as in a full MFer group, and none of the drawbacks. It’s pure profit on his end.

Yes, people like loot, including people with non-MF gear, and yes, people like efficiency too, and if you are playing solo then you can choose which you prefer without hurting anyone else, but if you’re in a group, and you’re wearing MF gear and they are not, then you are choosing a stat which benefits ONLY you, instead of a stat that benefits everyone in the group, which is the definition of selfishness, and players are well within their rights to not want to associate with selfish people.

maddoctor.2738:

AntiGw.9367:

stof.9341:

AntiGw.9367:

The game is balanced for blue/green gear. Any stats above that are a bonus.

No part of the game is balanced around everyone wearing full exotics and ascended gear. People can equip any bonus they want, and it doesn’t make them selfish. THEY ARE NOT SELFISH.

Once upon a time, a MF player was walking down a path and reached a fork. On the left, there was a sign written : “Berzerker gear : your party will kill stuff fast”. On the right it was written : “Explorer gear : your party will will kill stuff slower but you’ll get twice as much loot”. And the MF guy took the right path because he doesn’t care about the other players in his party but he gets more loot so that’s all that matters for him.

The MF guy took the right path because he knows that the party kills stuff fast enough already, and he doesn’t feel insecure about his own performance.

How about killing even faster and not laughing at the expense of others? How about being social and not a selfish person who uses (and abuses) others for personal benefit? How about someone that puts the team above and is not a loot freak?

When you decide to stack some stats (DPS) instead of others (MF), it doesn’t necessarily mean you put the team above everything else.

Based on your posts here, I’d say that you are a self-centered sanctimonious prick that feels the need to prove how unselfish he is compared to more casual people who don’t feel the urge to speed-clear everything.

edit: meant more casual, not less

There seem to be 2 totally separate arguments against magic find here.

1) Practical: Wearing magic find considerably hurts the experience of your group. The group has to “carry” the MF player.

2) Philosophical: Magic find gives you a boon that others don’t directly benefit from. This is selfish and unfair.

If you want people playing a very specific way, find a guild with like-minded individuals, and only do content with those people. To dictate the actions and experience of everyone in the open world is extreme. Clearly, some people enjoy playing with magic find, and if it doesn’t affect you, and it makes them happy, just let them be happy.

After all, the point of the game is to have fun.

MF gear does not mean someone in your party is leeching off you. Yes they may have lesser stats, but they are not making 10X the gold you are. Most times MF gear is cheaper, and perhaps that is all they could afford. Did anyone even stop to think maybe the MF gear they are wearing is to support them so they can get better gear? Probably not, because everyone is too busy yelling at each other for being selfish. The argument that MF gear wearers are lesser than others is just elitists. It starts with "stop wearing crap MF gear, and ends up with “You don’t have exotics on?” ::Kick::

The reason people are arguing against the hate towards MF gear is not because they do not know their stats are lower, they are arguing because they know falling in line “here” means falling in line when (“You don’t have exotics on?” ::Kick::) happens. It all starts somewhere. The only person leeching in a group who has MF gear is the MF wearer who has no want or desire to learn their skills and the dungeons. Those are the ones you should be directing this whole off topic thread at. But no, most everyone is just tossing into a group of “bad” anyone who doesn’t wear non MF gear. Maybe you all need to take a breather and realize how very little gear matters in this game. You can sit here and argue with each other all day and accomplish nothing from it.

MF wearers could be trying to support themselves with that gear and/or maybe thats all they could get. Instead of throwing insults at everyone who mentions they wear MF gear, maybe you should save them for in game when you find players who REALLY ARE leeching. Because I find that berserker geared people can leech just as much when they are dying in 5 seconds, or have no skill.

You need to direct your frustrations towards lazy people, who can be in ANY gear. Otherwise you just sound like your jealous they have “mad loots”, and you don’t and they are leeching. If a skilled player is in MF and lacking stats, and they are good at dungeons, then they should be rewarded for such. Someday they may get new gear and be even better with stats, because the first important thing in this game is skill. Your gear type only helps to achieve balance for your skill and direction, it does not define who a person is.

This is not WoW, this is not Aion, this is not EVE. Spend more time constructively understanding the problems we have in game, and stop AOE’ing everyone with insults just because they have a different idea or opinion than you. I’ve seen more bickering and name calling on forums than in most teen drama shows… I’ve uploaded something that will get everyone back in the right mindset so that future generations do not have to see how very rude and destructive everyone is.

Tony.6028:

There seem to be 2 totally separate arguments against magic find here.

1) Practical: Wearing magic find considerably hurts the experience of your group. The group has to “carry” the MF player.

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

I think this is, at the very least, debatable. As many have mentioned, there’s not a lot of data around this, and I honestly don’t think anyone notices a difference when a particular player wears magic find vs. when he/she does not. It really is more about the player than the gear.

2) Philosophical: Magic find gives you a boon that others don’t directly benefit from. This is selfish and unfair.

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

The same argument can be made for increased gold from drops, but for some reason it never is. Many players don’t use consumables effectively, even though they have the resources to and the boons would help the group.

And why does every component of your build have to help your group? The fact that a player is running with you is helping the group. They’re probably nice people too. They’re being cooperative, not selfish.

If you want people playing a very specific way, find a guild with like-minded individuals, and only do content with those people. To dictate the actions and experience of everyone in the open world is extreme. Clearly, some people enjoy playing with magic find, and if it doesn’t affect you, and it makes them happy, just let them be happy.

After all, the point of the game is to have fun.

You missed the more important part on the second one: They are getting something that only they benefit from instead of something that would have been more useful to the team.

I think a fair compromise would be to add a set of anti-mf gear. Those people with a dps first playstyle can wear gear that adds damage, but reduces the mf chance for the party.

The pro-mf crowd is happy because they keep their playstyle of more loot for them at the expense of damage for the team, and the pro-dps players get their playstyle with an equal group tradeoff.

Fixed.

AntiGw.9367:

When you decide to stack some stats (DPS) instead of others (MF), it doesn’t necessarily mean you put the team above everything else.

It means exactly that, when you choose MF over anything else, you put yourself above your team, you are selfish and not a team player, that’s FACT and fairly obvious, you can’t change that.

As for what I am, you have no idea what I’m and how I play, if you knew you would stop posting quickly. And to reistate:

I’d take someone that is a newbie in the game with full greens, over a veteran with exotic MF gear, the first didn’t have a choice, he is still learning/leveling, the second had all the choice to get the “good” gear and chose not to, therefore he thinks only for himself, he is a selfish coward for me and I don’t want anything with those leeches.

Judging by your posts you are a loot freak that wants to use others/exploit others to get better drops, you love your gold and your loot and you try to find losers that will fall for your linking of different gear and invite you. You are the selfish one here and it is painfully obvious to anyone.

Geotherma.2395:

If a skilled player is in MF and lacking stats, and they are good at dungeons, then they should be rewarded for such.

And this is the reason why you can’t understand why people have a problem with it.
The person should NOT be rewarded for it. They are making their group worse, on purpose, for better drops. They do not in any way deserve to get more/better rewards for doing so.
Unless the group agreed to all run MF, since that means they’re fine with it being harder for better rewards.

This topic again? Time to update block list i guess.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Geotherma.2395:

If a skilled player is in MF and lacking stats, and they are good at dungeons, then they should be rewarded for such.

And this is the reason why you can’t understand why people have a problem with it.
The person should NOT be rewarded for it. They are making their group worse, on purpose, for better drops. They do not in any way deserve to get more/better rewards for doing so.
Unless the group agreed to all run MF, since that means they’re fine with it being harder for better rewards.

So then anyone with less than Ascended gear is essentially doing the same. They too lack stats, much lower in fact if they are in greens. So they are being selfish too, because they haven’t got the money or time to get ascended or exotic gear to live up to your standards. I see the logic now. Everyone should run in Exotic or better gear, or you are leeching, because stat wise you aren’t contributing as much as someone with better gear/traits/ping. Oh and people in ascended MF gear, also leeching, and bad.

And lets not forget those people who have MF boosts and are in non MF green/rare gear. Them guys are leeching too, because they have the same stats as you but have extra MF! How unfair is that! Lets kick them too. They are obviously there just for themselves, why can’t they eat group food, or give group buffs? Selfish I tell you, just selfish they are.

Geotherma.2395:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Geotherma.2395:

If a skilled player is in MF and lacking stats, and they are good at dungeons, then they should be rewarded for such.

And this is the reason why you can’t understand why people have a problem with it.
The person should NOT be rewarded for it. They are making their group worse, on purpose, for better drops. They do not in any way deserve to get more/better rewards for doing so.
Unless the group agreed to all run MF, since that means they’re fine with it being harder for better rewards.

So then anyone with less than Ascended gear is essentially doing the same. They too lack stats, much lower in fact if they are in greens. So they are being selfish too, because they haven’t got the money or time to get ascended or exotic gear to live up to your standards. I see the logic now. Everyone should run in Exotic or better gear, or you are leeching, because stat wise you aren’t contributing as much as someone with better gear/traits/ping.

Did they choose not to have the time to do fractals? Did they choose not to have enough money for exotics?
Did a MF user choose to take demonstrably terrible stats instead of something useful and then went into a group, where the only one who sees any benefit whatsoever from the terrible stats is himself?

People in MF gear in a party chose to be less useful for their own personal benefit, and such a person does not deserve better drops at the cost of their group.

Oranisagu.3706:

+1, mf is my main gripe with the stat combinations in this game, especially in dungeon groups. it has to be reworked in a way that it’s either an addition to your gear (like infusions) or benefits all players around (not just in groups, cursed shore events are suffering from mf as well). if they can’t do that, we need to know if someone is wearing mf.

@Star Ace: as you pointed out, you can post ‘lfg no mf’. yes you can, but this attracts mf players immensely. I get more pure-mf players with such posts than without.
why? I don’t know, I can only assume it has to do with the players mentality. a mf player probably has less scruples leeching off a group than someone who tries to bring the most to a group. thus some mf players could also have less scruples lying about their gear than other players.
I know you’re a strong opponent of berserker gear, as you’ve often stated before, but you always seem to compare the effects of a bad player wearing zerker gear with a good player wearing something else. of course the good player is better than a bad player, gear has nothing to do with it. give me PVT gear and I’m a lot less useful than in my zerker gear. my warri still wears knights/valk/zerker stuff, because he’s just too squishy in extended fights, but I’ve been replacing a few pieces from a full knights set because the additional toughness wasn’t necessary anymore.

To be honest, it must be bad luck in your part-additionally, who knows if those players that are “bad” in your party are actually not using MF gear, but other gear without defensive stats (Berserker’s, Rampager’s, etc.)

There’s a strong myth going around here that people that use MF gear MUST be selfish, which is an argument that always goes in endless circles, for anyone that wants others to use the gear they wish (rather than that which the player wants to use), is also being selfish. Surely there are players that use MF gear that are selfless, and people that use Berserker’s that are all about themselves, and not “the group”, as is usually claimed. The gear does not determine whether a person is selfish at all-that’s about the individual, not the gear’s stats, as they are only numbers, and devoid of any moral obligations/implications (much like not everyone that uses Berserker’s gear must be an elitist either.)

Feel free to browse my posts regarding Berserker’s stats-I never oppose the stats, but I do oppose the attitude of some players that think that their playstyle is inherently better just because they have such gear. They also like to excuse their preferred playstyle by putting down every other choice as less efficient and/or citing their personal opinion that GW2 is all about DPS (which is not a fact, but just their personal perception of the game.) I don’t mind people using Berserker’s stats, but it’s important to note that using it doesn’t mean that a)the player is “better” or necessarily “contributing more” (that’s based on skill and practice, not gear), b)the common glass cannon spec is not suited for 100% of the players (thus saying “it’s the effective way to play GW2” is totally out of place), and that c) what we like and prefer must not be what works for everybody else-therefore, yes, Berserker’s stats should be a personal choice, and not an option touted as “best” just because there’s a trend out there, ala CoF 1.

What happens is that many people use Berserker’s gear because they are told it’s “the right way to play”, and then do pretty badly on it not because the stats are bad but because it’s not a play style they may actually thrive with. On CoF 1, it’s too easy for most 4 Berserker’s Warriors to fail, but players that are not used to the gear unfortunately fail elsewhere-even on the supposedly “easy” PvE map. Berserker’s is also not “ultimate gear” in the sense that some view toughness/vitality as “training wheels” for the “real gear”-“zerk.” In reality, glass cannon style is not for everybody, just because it may be ideal for you. Use the gear because it suits you, your preferences, and your playstyle-not because you were told it’s the most powerful or “the right way” to play, because ultimately, YOU decide what works for you, not anyone else (that’s what I really believe about Berserker’s-and all-gear.)

I promise I’ll never tell you not to wear Berserker’s gear-it’s not my business, much like any “zerk” player shouldn’t prescribe to others what they must use (whether it’s Cleric’s, MF, Shaman’s, it’s simply not our place to tell others how they must play their character-that’s true selfishness, eliminating freedom of choice for what we think is best for them.)

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Geotherma.2395:

If a skilled player is in MF and lacking stats, and they are good at dungeons, then they should be rewarded for such.

And this is the reason why you can’t understand why people have a problem with it.
The person should NOT be rewarded for it. They are making their group worse, on purpose, for better drops. They do not in any way deserve to get more/better rewards for doing so.
Unless the group agreed to all run MF, since that means they’re fine with it being harder for better rewards.

The mistake you are making is that there is no specific goal that the party is supposed to achieve, beyond successfully completing a dungeon.

You don’t need to complete it in x minutes.

You may want to stack DPS to complete it faster, but that’s just you. You can do that.

Other players are more casual, and have no desire to run through it faster. They want to enjoy the dungeon and the loot.

You have no business telling anyone how to gear, or how fast to complete the dungeon, or what skills to use or…

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Geotherma.2395:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Geotherma.2395:

If a skilled player is in MF and lacking stats, and they are good at dungeons, then they should be rewarded for such.

And this is the reason why you can’t understand why people have a problem with it.
The person should NOT be rewarded for it. They are making their group worse, on purpose, for better drops. They do not in any way deserve to get more/better rewards for doing so.
Unless the group agreed to all run MF, since that means they’re fine with it being harder for better rewards.

So then anyone with less than Ascended gear is essentially doing the same. They too lack stats, much lower in fact if they are in greens. So they are being selfish too, because they haven’t got the money or time to get ascended or exotic gear to live up to your standards. I see the logic now. Everyone should run in Exotic or better gear, or you are leeching, because stat wise you aren’t contributing as much as someone with better gear/traits/ping.

Did they choose not to have the time to do fractals? Did they choose not to have enough money for exotics?
Did a MF user choose to take demonstrably terrible stats instead of something useful and then went into a group, where the only one who sees any benefit whatsoever from the terrible stats is himself?

People in MF gear in a party chose to be less useful for their own personal benefit, and such a person does not deserve better drops at the cost of their group.

So everyone who “chose” to wear MF gear did so SOLELY because they clearly WANTED to be less useful? Ah yes, and there is the explanation for 90% of this thread. People in MF “chose” to kitten over everyone else who is in better stat gear. Every.. single.. person. So from this I take that everyone hates MF wearers not because of the loss of stat, but more so because they do it ON PURPOSE to mess with people. I suppose I could say the same for those who don’t all go knights which would keep them alive longer allowing them to be more skillful. Did you ever think they got the gear because they need money, and not because in your mind everyone is out to get you who wears MF gear?

You want to know what selfish really means in GW2? Expecting others to play your way and allowing for no other forms of play or opinion.

I will say, MF may HURT the team by reducing that player’s role a bit, but then so what? I can’t even afford full MF gear even if I wanted to right now. I don’t have a full exotic set, I die a lot, but I’m out there having fun. MF was never designed for team play in the first place. It’s designed for SOLO players because it boosts your roll potential for better drops. Someone in MF may deal less damage, but then again they’re the ones who are getting the rare/exotic drops that YOU aren’t because you chose not to wear MF gear. MF gear is aimed for those who want to farm gear without fear of bad rolls. If you ran with a full party using MF gear, you’ll all benefit from it. Plus we all get our own drops anyways, so why does it matter if they have MF gear or not? I get rare drops and i don’t even have MF gear. I know sentinel is a new stat combination, so maybe to counter the MF issue, there should be another set of MF gear that caters towards MF/power? I know it just increases your odds by like 1/10 chance or something, maybe one thing A-Net could look into in the future is a new Rune that say has “6/6: Provides the party with 10% Magic Find.” Or something similar to that effect. That way we all get some equal benefits from it.