Guild Wars 2

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

AntiGw.9367:

odysseas.1786:

Oh you play with nice people? Well so do I. Nobody will tell you anything when you are doing a normal dungeon. They will all secretely be annoyed at your better drops and less contribution but they’ll let it slip. It’s just a casual easy dungeon after all and we’re all friends and having fun. But let me tell you one thing. If your team wipes in a fractal because you can’t kill stuff fast enough or you can’t take the hits for a long enough time you WILL be kicked and replaced and your friends will kindly ask you to switch gear, or just not invite you again alltogether. If we were friends, in game or irl, and close enough so I wouldn’t get mad at you for failing, I’d definately be annoyed at your incompetence and drop hints at you to look at guides or change your gear. Cause look, I know you, I like you, you’re my friend, but when you waste 2 hours on lava shaman cause you can’t kill the adds fast enough or wipe us at jade maw cause you had to be ressed because of your MF infusions I’ll get mad.

Again, you arbitrarily assume things…

The crewes I play with value playing with people more than playing fast or having 1337 gear. Sometimes they volunteer to fill a dungeon party even though they don’t need anything from that dungeon.

That’s what is really not selfish. Not demanding that everyone should use what they want.

And I told you at some point you will move on to tougher stuff and you will either change/expand your circle of people you play with or you and your friends will all ascend to the next level. And then while they value playing with people I can 100% guarantee you that they don’t like wiping over and over and you’ll have to change.

You are assuming that he’s bad because of his gear. :P He and his friends may as well not wipe as you claim. Do not judge his skill based on his gear.

I’m not assuming anything. He could be very good and probably is a very competent player. The fact of the matter is he will eventually hit the point where gear limitations exist. MF gear is worse than its’ normal equivalent and I think any sensible person can agree on that. Hence he will have to get better gear or else he will wipe.

Correction: you assume he will (sorry, meant not offense but it’s true.) “Gear limitations” are tied to player experience, skills, Professions, and builds. There are no specific ways to conquer content other than being good at conquering it. Therefore, he may surprise you with his “inferior” gear, because of superior skill and teamwork/synergy.

Feel free to disagree, and it’s not personal.

Let’s assume john is the best gw2 player ever. He’s been playing all along, he knows every move, every cooldown, every boss telegraph and has godly dodging skills. He’s also running the optimal traits but is using MF gear. Now john here is really good. He’s gone where other couldn’t with the non-optimal gear. At some point though john will have to change his gear simply because his gear just won’t cut it anymore. It’s just impossible for him. That’s what I mean by gear limitations. Maybe john can clear a lvl 80 fractal. He will fail eventually though as harder content is released.

Julie Yann.5379:

If you did not specify in LFG that you didn’t want MF gear in your party then to bad for you, I will be wearing it. If the run goes smoothly I’will keep it on, if it looks like the group’s struggling I will change gear to help carry the weak link (I hate bad runs too). If you did not specify in LFG that you did not want MF in your party and then ask me to ping my gear after I have joined I will ping you my non MF set. Do the run and when it is over and you are saying good job, great run, I will ping you my awesome drops and my MF gear and leave.

You realize, of course, that your example of you being a lying kitten illustrates why advertising NO MF doesn’t work, right?

Einlanzer.1627:

I’ve had trouble with that person as well, and yes this is a fact. This is also why sharing it across the party as an average is the only solution that makes a lick of sense that I’ve seen so far and just so happens to be a very simple one.

I just asked that person and because you’re quoting them I’m going to ask you as well – what DPS is a person sacrificing if all armor would have gold/karma/magic find only infusion slots and a person chose to get it?

rfdarko.4639:

The two sides of this argument seem to be missing each other, and back a few pages someone had the right idea when they pointed out there is a practical and philosophical divide. I think most people arguing against magic find are coming from the philosophic point of view: that the stat, as a concept, doesn’t really fit in a teamwork setting. MF the stat itself (ie, not the person wearing it) is providing a non-combat gain for the wearer only. The argument on the other side seems to be about freedom of choice, and that a few points missing from a gear set is not what really matters when we are talking about contributing to a team. I agree with that point, and I think in informs us how we should deal with current MF and the people who use it. However, at best, all that argument is saying is that MF has a negligible impact and so isn’t a major issue, rather than answering directly the claim that MF, as it currently exists, is the only armor stat that benefits just the wearer. As we read from the dev post, Anet agrees that there is a problem from the philosophic point of view. It’s not fair to call people who wear MF selfish, but it’s also not good to shoot down people trying fix the system by saying “it doesn’t matter” – clearly it does to Anet, and it does to a lot of players. We deal with it, sure, we respect other player’s personal decisions and recognize that skill plays the most important role, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a problem that should be discussed.

This is one of the best posts in this thread.

In short, calling MF necessarily selfish is inappropriate, because by not allowing others freedom of choice, they are being selfish too.

There is a problem, because MF gear users do indeed need to play with “inferior” gear for their MF% increase, though of course, skill will always circumvent that. However, I myself don’t like employing MF gear, because my builds feel weaker (whether they are offensive or defensive), thus I employ it only on one character if I feel like it, and on the PvE map only. However, this problem isn’t fixed by calling out MF users as “selfish”, moral destitutes, because such claim is not only inaccurate in many cases, but ends up emphasizing the accusing player’s moral faults as well (envy, selfishness, intolerance.) Players that employ MF gear know its weaknesses, and do not necessarily use the gear to grief others-even if others are unintentionally grieved because they wish they had the MF% increase (envy, once more.)

In short, the MF gear problem is that one “adventuring” stat is being replaced by a combat stat (which Mr. Colin acknowledged.) NOT that MF users are being necessarily selfish or “lacking in morals” due to using it.

odysseas.1786:

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

AntiGw.9367:

odysseas.1786:

Oh you play with nice people? Well so do I. Nobody will tell you anything when you are doing a normal dungeon. They will all secretely be annoyed at your better drops and less contribution but they’ll let it slip. It’s just a casual easy dungeon after all and we’re all friends and having fun. But let me tell you one thing. If your team wipes in a fractal because you can’t kill stuff fast enough or you can’t take the hits for a long enough time you WILL be kicked and replaced and your friends will kindly ask you to switch gear, or just not invite you again alltogether. If we were friends, in game or irl, and close enough so I wouldn’t get mad at you for failing, I’d definately be annoyed at your incompetence and drop hints at you to look at guides or change your gear. Cause look, I know you, I like you, you’re my friend, but when you waste 2 hours on lava shaman cause you can’t kill the adds fast enough or wipe us at jade maw cause you had to be ressed because of your MF infusions I’ll get mad.

Again, you arbitrarily assume things…

The crewes I play with value playing with people more than playing fast or having 1337 gear. Sometimes they volunteer to fill a dungeon party even though they don’t need anything from that dungeon.

That’s what is really not selfish. Not demanding that everyone should use what they want.

And I told you at some point you will move on to tougher stuff and you will either change/expand your circle of people you play with or you and your friends will all ascend to the next level. And then while they value playing with people I can 100% guarantee you that they don’t like wiping over and over and you’ll have to change.

You are assuming that he’s bad because of his gear. :P He and his friends may as well not wipe as you claim. Do not judge his skill based on his gear.

I’m not assuming anything. He could be very good and probably is a very competent player. The fact of the matter is he will eventually hit the point where gear limitations exist. MF gear is worse than its’ normal equivalent and I think any sensible person can agree on that. Hence he will have to get better gear or else he will wipe.

Correction: you assume he will (sorry, meant not offense but it’s true.) “Gear limitations” are tied to player experience, skills, Professions, and builds. There are no specific ways to conquer content other than being good at conquering it. Therefore, he may surprise you with his “inferior” gear, because of superior skill and teamwork/synergy.

Feel free to disagree, and it’s not personal.

Let’s assume john is the best gw2 player ever. He’s been playing all along, he knows every move, every cooldown, every boss telegraph and has godly dodging skills. He’s also running the optimal traits but is using MF gear. Now john here is really good. He’s gone where other couldn’t with the non-optimal gear. At some point though john will have to change his gear simply because his gear just won’t cut it anymore. It’s just impossible for him. That’s what I mean by gear limitations. Maybe john can clear a lvl 80 fractal. He will fail eventually though as harder content is released.

This is correct, except you can take it even a step further. It’s not even about content being hard enough to fail you, it’s about being optimal in any situation. John can be the best player in the game, but it doesn’t change the fact that if he’s using MF, he’s less amazing than if he was using a different gear type because he’s sacrificing a combat stat. How he ranks relative to other players is irrelevant.

This is why MF is currently 100% of the time a detriment to the group, even if the player using it still performs well. This is not an attack against the player using MF, it’s attack against the concept of MF and how it works currently. It’s a design flaw that the best patch for is making MF averaged and shared across the entire party so everyone benefits from it as much as they would benefit from you wearing Zerker gear.

Star Ace.5207:

“Gear limitations” are tied to player experience, skills, Professions, and builds. There are no specific ways to conquer content other than being good at conquering it. Therefore, he may surprise you with his “inferior” gear, because of superior skill and teamwork/synergy.

Feel free to disagree, and it’s not personal.

You make a very good point about the importance of skill and teamwork, especially how they can overturn a deficit of gear, and I cannot agree enough.

However, you have to have a frame of reference to evaluate skill & teamwork. to evaluate these qualities, it helps to look at gear, since that is a variable that is able to be controlled. After all, if you have two characters that are the same class and are in the same gear, you have reduced the variables that can cloud an assessment of skill.

Gear is not the be all, end all. Many players, and other MMO’s have made that mistake, and look only at gear as a benchmark of skill. Gear is merely a modifier. If you have someone who is in the best gear possible, but is completely unskilled, they will doing reasonably well, through sheer brute power & random chance. Until they run into a skilled player in average gear. The unskilled player may get lucky, but they are more likely to be destroyed by someone who knows their profession & build. Give the skilled player better gear, or the unskilled player worse gear, and the gap in skill level becomes even more noticeable.

Which brings me back to MF gear. If you’re a bad kitten in MF gear, think how much better you’r be in non-MF gear.

Edit: Dang, the poster above me beat me to the point.

Julie Yann.5379:

PsiNorm.3652:

Those arguing that mf gear in groups is not selfish are trolls, getting under your skin. There’s no way they believe their foolish comments. Just relax and watch them flail.

I’m not saying it’s not a selfish stat. It is, but just because some people choose to run sub-optimal build does not mean they are not contributing to the group and that they are being carried by the rest or leeching off others. If they can stay alive and do some damage and the job gets done, where is the kittening problem? It’s not a job where you have to fill a monthly quota in order to get paid and 1 guy is slacking off. It’s a kittening game.

If you did not specify in LFG that you didn’t want MF gear in your party then to bad for you, I will be wearing it. If the run goes smoothly I’will keep it on, if it looks like the group’s struggling I will change gear to help carry the weak link (I hate bad runs too). If you did not specify in LFG that you did not want MF in your party and then ask me to ping my gear after I have joined I will ping you my non MF set. Do the run and when it is over and you are saying good job, great run, I will ping you my awesome drops and my MF gear and leave.

Again you are not on the same playing field as most of us. Gear isn’t a problem in normal dungeons. Also you are the worst type of person for lying like that to 4 other people doing your share of the job.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Julie Yann.5379:

If you did not specify in LFG that you didn’t want MF gear in your party then to bad for you, I will be wearing it. If the run goes smoothly I’will keep it on, if it looks like the group’s struggling I will change gear to help carry the weak link (I hate bad runs too). If you did not specify in LFG that you did not want MF in your party and then ask me to ping my gear after I have joined I will ping you my non MF set. Do the run and when it is over and you are saying good job, great run, I will ping you my awesome drops and my MF gear and leave.

You realize, of course, that your example of you being a lying kitten illustrates why advertising NO MF doesn’t work, right?

I you specifiy that you don’t want MF I will respect that and either not join your group or not wear my MF gear. I am not a total @-hole, but if get a chance to troll an elitist prick because he/she did not say what he/wanted up front when he/she advertise, I will not pass up the opportunity.

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

I’ve had trouble with that person as well, and yes this is a fact. This is also why sharing it across the party as an average is the only solution that makes a lick of sense that I’ve seen so far and just so happens to be a very simple one.

I just asked that person and because you’re quoting them I’m going to ask you as well – what DPS is a person sacrificing if all armor would have gold/karma/magic find only infusion slots and a person chose to get it?

None I suppose, and I’ve already stated that I don’t think this is a bad suggestion from a conceptual point of view. However, it is large in scope, and I would argue totally unnecessary.

Julie Yann.5379:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Julie Yann.5379:

If you did not specify in LFG that you didn’t want MF gear in your party then to bad for you, I will be wearing it. If the run goes smoothly I’will keep it on, if it looks like the group’s struggling I will change gear to help carry the weak link (I hate bad runs too). If you did not specify in LFG that you did not want MF in your party and then ask me to ping my gear after I have joined I will ping you my non MF set. Do the run and when it is over and you are saying good job, great run, I will ping you my awesome drops and my MF gear and leave.

You realize, of course, that your example of you being a lying kitten illustrates why advertising NO MF doesn’t work, right?

I you specifiy that you don’t want MF I will respect that either not join your group or not wear my MF gear. I am not a total kitten, but if get a chance to troll an elitist prick because he/she did not say what he/wanted up front when he/she advertise, I will not pass up the opportunity.

This is not about you or any other individual player, it’s about the concept behind the MF stat and the way it’s currently implemented in game. It is the only stat that causes you to kitten your party for your own gain, and that’s a design issue.

That said, you are one of the posters who earlier said “why should they be able to leech off my MF?” to the suggestion of sharing it. I lol’d pretty hard.

Julie Yann.5379:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Julie Yann.5379:

If you did not specify in LFG that you didn’t want MF gear in your party then to bad for you, I will be wearing it. If the run goes smoothly I’will keep it on, if it looks like the group’s struggling I will change gear to help carry the weak link (I hate bad runs too). If you did not specify in LFG that you did not want MF in your party and then ask me to ping my gear after I have joined I will ping you my non MF set. Do the run and when it is over and you are saying good job, great run, I will ping you my awesome drops and my MF gear and leave.

You realize, of course, that your example of you being a lying kitten illustrates why advertising NO MF doesn’t work, right?

I you specifiy that you don’t want MF I will respect that either not join your group or not wear my MF gear. I am not a total kitten, but if get a chance to troll an elitist prick because he/she did not say what he/wanted up front when he/she advertise, I will not pass up the opportunity.

Yeah, but the very fact that you can lie like you did shows why asking for NO MF doesn’t work. There is no way to actually verify it because kittens like you can lie about it.

tinymurder.5791:

Star Ace.5207:

“Gear limitations” are tied to player experience, skills, Professions, and builds. There are no specific ways to conquer content other than being good at conquering it. Therefore, he may surprise you with his “inferior” gear, because of superior skill and teamwork/synergy.

Feel free to disagree, and it’s not personal.

You make a very good point about the importance of skill and teamwork, especially how they can overturn a deficit of gear, and I cannot agree enough.

However, you have to have a frame of reference to evaluate skill & teamwork. to evaluate these qualities, it helps to look at gear, since that is a variable that is able to be controlled. After all, if you have two characters that are the same class and are in the same gear, you have reduced the variables that can cloud an assessment of skill.

Gear is not the be all, end all. Many players, and other MMO’s have made that mistake, and look only at gear as a benchmark of skill. Gear is merely a modifier. If you have someone who is in the best gear possible, but is completely unskilled, they will doing reasonably well, through sheer brute power & random chance. Until they run into a skilled player in average gear. The unskilled player may get lucky, but they are more likely to be destroyed by someone who knows their profession & build. Give the skilled player better gear, or the unskilled player worse gear, and the gap in skill level becomes even more noticeable.

Which brings me back to MF gear. If you’re a bad kitten in MF gear, think how much better you’r be in non-MF gear.

Edit: Dang, the poster above me beat me to the point.

I fully agree. While gear isn’t all that matters,(I’ve seen bad players in top tier gear)it is a controllable variable and it does even out any flaws a player might have. For example I always carry a set of gear with vitality and toughness stats so that I can wear it when I feel like I won’t be able to dodge all the aoes or cure the conditions. If I know I’ll perform worse than usual I can even that out with gear. Imagine how much worse it would have been if my gear had lackluster stats.

odysseas.1786:

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

AntiGw.9367:

odysseas.1786:

Oh you play with nice people? Well so do I. Nobody will tell you anything when you are doing a normal dungeon. They will all secretely be annoyed at your better drops and less contribution but they’ll let it slip. It’s just a casual easy dungeon after all and we’re all friends and having fun. But let me tell you one thing. If your team wipes in a fractal because you can’t kill stuff fast enough or you can’t take the hits for a long enough time you WILL be kicked and replaced and your friends will kindly ask you to switch gear, or just not invite you again alltogether. If we were friends, in game or irl, and close enough so I wouldn’t get mad at you for failing, I’d definately be annoyed at your incompetence and drop hints at you to look at guides or change your gear. Cause look, I know you, I like you, you’re my friend, but when you waste 2 hours on lava shaman cause you can’t kill the adds fast enough or wipe us at jade maw cause you had to be ressed because of your MF infusions I’ll get mad.

Again, you arbitrarily assume things…

The crewes I play with value playing with people more than playing fast or having 1337 gear. Sometimes they volunteer to fill a dungeon party even though they don’t need anything from that dungeon.

That’s what is really not selfish. Not demanding that everyone should use what they want.

And I told you at some point you will move on to tougher stuff and you will either change/expand your circle of people you play with or you and your friends will all ascend to the next level. And then while they value playing with people I can 100% guarantee you that they don’t like wiping over and over and you’ll have to change.

You are assuming that he’s bad because of his gear. :P He and his friends may as well not wipe as you claim. Do not judge his skill based on his gear.

I’m not assuming anything. He could be very good and probably is a very competent player. The fact of the matter is he will eventually hit the point where gear limitations exist. MF gear is worse than its’ normal equivalent and I think any sensible person can agree on that. Hence he will have to get better gear or else he will wipe.

Correction: you assume he will (sorry, meant not offense but it’s true.) “Gear limitations” are tied to player experience, skills, Professions, and builds. There are no specific ways to conquer content other than being good at conquering it. Therefore, he may surprise you with his “inferior” gear, because of superior skill and teamwork/synergy.

Feel free to disagree, and it’s not personal.

Let’s assume john is the best gw2 player ever. He’s been playing all along, he knows every move, every cooldown, every boss telegraph and has godly dodging skills. He’s also running the optimal traits but is using MF gear. Now john here is really good. He’s gone where other couldn’t with the non-optimal gear. At some point though john will have to change his gear simply because his gear just won’t cut it anymore. It’s just impossible for him. That’s what I mean by gear limitations. Maybe john can clear a lvl 80 fractal. He will fail eventually though as harder content is released.

But this is according to your own opinion, sir, which is what I was trying to say. You think he won’t cut it once he gets to a certain point in the game, and I disagree on the grounds that you really don’t know that-you believe it, but it may not be true for him and his friends.

There’s good Ascended MF gear available out there, at least better than Exotic Explorer’s, Traveler’s, Wayfarer’s, etc. If they decide to add better stats (I hope not, but they might) they will probably increase the Ascended MF gear stats as well-but then again, by then they may have made this a non-issue, if they rework the whole MF thing as Mr. Colin suggested they were looking into.

In short, there are no gear limitations barring infusions. Optimal builds are a player’s point of view. No specific builds/gear are really required, especially since they depend on the player skill, Profession, and personal taste (AFAIK, infusions are the only quasi-gating system in place right now, not any other specific gear limitations, which are usually another player’s preference and opinion, and not really demanded by the game’s content.)

odysseas.1786:

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

AntiGw.9367:

odysseas.1786:

Oh you play with nice people? Well so do I. Nobody will tell you anything when you are doing a normal dungeon. They will all secretely be annoyed at your better drops and less contribution but they’ll let it slip. It’s just a casual easy dungeon after all and we’re all friends and having fun. But let me tell you one thing. If your team wipes in a fractal because you can’t kill stuff fast enough or you can’t take the hits for a long enough time you WILL be kicked and replaced and your friends will kindly ask you to switch gear, or just not invite you again alltogether. If we were friends, in game or irl, and close enough so I wouldn’t get mad at you for failing, I’d definately be annoyed at your incompetence and drop hints at you to look at guides or change your gear. Cause look, I know you, I like you, you’re my friend, but when you waste 2 hours on lava shaman cause you can’t kill the adds fast enough or wipe us at jade maw cause you had to be ressed because of your MF infusions I’ll get mad.

Again, you arbitrarily assume things…

The crewes I play with value playing with people more than playing fast or having 1337 gear. Sometimes they volunteer to fill a dungeon party even though they don’t need anything from that dungeon.

That’s what is really not selfish. Not demanding that everyone should use what they want.

And I told you at some point you will move on to tougher stuff and you will either change/expand your circle of people you play with or you and your friends will all ascend to the next level. And then while they value playing with people I can 100% guarantee you that they don’t like wiping over and over and you’ll have to change.

You are assuming that he’s bad because of his gear. :P He and his friends may as well not wipe as you claim. Do not judge his skill based on his gear.

I’m not assuming anything. He could be very good and probably is a very competent player. The fact of the matter is he will eventually hit the point where gear limitations exist. MF gear is worse than its’ normal equivalent and I think any sensible person can agree on that. Hence he will have to get better gear or else he will wipe.

Correction: you assume he will (sorry, meant not offense but it’s true.) “Gear limitations” are tied to player experience, skills, Professions, and builds. There are no specific ways to conquer content other than being good at conquering it. Therefore, he may surprise you with his “inferior” gear, because of superior skill and teamwork/synergy.

Feel free to disagree, and it’s not personal.

Let’s assume john is the best gw2 player ever. He’s been playing all along, he knows every move, every cooldown, every boss telegraph and has godly dodging skills. He’s also running the optimal traits but is using MF gear. Now john here is really good. He’s gone where other couldn’t with the non-optimal gear. At some point though john will have to change his gear simply because his gear just won’t cut it anymore. It’s just impossible for him. That’s what I mean by gear limitations. Maybe john can clear a lvl 80 fractal. He will fail eventually though as harder content is released.

The only gear limitation in this game is agony resistance, and I’ve never heard of a player without it running fractals on a regular basis.

Other than that, anything can be cleared with green gear, as I’ve already said multiple times. Anything that can wipe a dedicated green party, will wipe any pimped out exotic party just as easily, with or without MF.

Me and my friends do wipe of course, but nobody ever gives other party members a hard time for not doing their “job”. Blaming anything on MF is just silly.

As ArenaNet have given an official response the matter, I would like this thread to be locked.

The thread has just turned into abuse, while others are regurgitating what has already been said:

• Magic Find users claiming a players skill is more important than gear – which is true.
• Non-Magic Find users claiming a player is wasting potential & groups time – which is also true.

Again, I’d like this thread locked if possible, we have gotten what was required.

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

AntiGw.9367:

odysseas.1786:

Oh you play with nice people? Well so do I. Nobody will tell you anything when you are doing a normal dungeon. They will all secretely be annoyed at your better drops and less contribution but they’ll let it slip. It’s just a casual easy dungeon after all and we’re all friends and having fun. But let me tell you one thing. If your team wipes in a fractal because you can’t kill stuff fast enough or you can’t take the hits for a long enough time you WILL be kicked and replaced and your friends will kindly ask you to switch gear, or just not invite you again alltogether. If we were friends, in game or irl, and close enough so I wouldn’t get mad at you for failing, I’d definately be annoyed at your incompetence and drop hints at you to look at guides or change your gear. Cause look, I know you, I like you, you’re my friend, but when you waste 2 hours on lava shaman cause you can’t kill the adds fast enough or wipe us at jade maw cause you had to be ressed because of your MF infusions I’ll get mad.

Again, you arbitrarily assume things…

The crewes I play with value playing with people more than playing fast or having 1337 gear. Sometimes they volunteer to fill a dungeon party even though they don’t need anything from that dungeon.

That’s what is really not selfish. Not demanding that everyone should use what they want.

And I told you at some point you will move on to tougher stuff and you will either change/expand your circle of people you play with or you and your friends will all ascend to the next level. And then while they value playing with people I can 100% guarantee you that they don’t like wiping over and over and you’ll have to change.

You are assuming that he’s bad because of his gear. :P He and his friends may as well not wipe as you claim. Do not judge his skill based on his gear.

I’m not assuming anything. He could be very good and probably is a very competent player. The fact of the matter is he will eventually hit the point where gear limitations exist. MF gear is worse than its’ normal equivalent and I think any sensible person can agree on that. Hence he will have to get better gear or else he will wipe.

Correction: you assume he will (sorry, meant not offense but it’s true.) “Gear limitations” are tied to player experience, skills, Professions, and builds. There are no specific ways to conquer content other than being good at conquering it. Therefore, he may surprise you with his “inferior” gear, because of superior skill and teamwork/synergy.

Feel free to disagree, and it’s not personal.

Let’s assume john is the best gw2 player ever. He’s been playing all along, he knows every move, every cooldown, every boss telegraph and has godly dodging skills. He’s also running the optimal traits but is using MF gear. Now john here is really good. He’s gone where other couldn’t with the non-optimal gear. At some point though john will have to change his gear simply because his gear just won’t cut it anymore. It’s just impossible for him. That’s what I mean by gear limitations. Maybe john can clear a lvl 80 fractal. He will fail eventually though as harder content is released.

But this is according to your own opinion, sir, which is what I was trying to say. You think he won’t cut it once he gets to a certain point in the game, and I disagree on the grounds that you really don’t know that-you believe it, but it may not be true for him and his friends.

No, think about it. It’s not about whether or not he cuts it. Regardless of how amazing he might be as a player, he is still weaker in MF than he is in other stats, which operates as a detriment to his party 100% of the time. His performance relative to content or other players is irrelevant.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Julie Yann.5379:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Julie Yann.5379:

If you did not specify in LFG that you didn’t want MF gear in your party then to bad for you, I will be wearing it. If the run goes smoothly I’will keep it on, if it looks like the group’s struggling I will change gear to help carry the weak link (I hate bad runs too). If you did not specify in LFG that you did not want MF in your party and then ask me to ping my gear after I have joined I will ping you my non MF set. Do the run and when it is over and you are saying good job, great run, I will ping you my awesome drops and my MF gear and leave.

You realize, of course, that your example of you being a lying kitten illustrates why advertising NO MF doesn’t work, right?

I you specifiy that you don’t want MF I will respect that either not join your group or not wear my MF gear. I am not a total kitten, but if get a chance to troll an elitist prick because he/she did not say what he/wanted up front when he/she advertise, I will not pass up the opportunity.

Yeah, but the very fact that you can lie like you did shows why asking for NO MF doesn’t work. There is no way to actually verify it because kittens like you can lie about it.

To be fair, and while I wouldn’t do what she does, I contend that the real “kitten” is the player that didn’t specify that they didn’t want any MF gear in the group, and then proceeded to ask her to ping her gear to “investigate” whether she does. In that way, she’s being “kitten to a kitten”, if you will.

AntiGw.9367:

Blaming anything on MF is just silly.

Right. So, if a boss has a tiny sliver of health remaining when the last person goes down, and everyone was using Explorer’s instead of Berserker’s, it’s totally not because your damage was nerfed by MF, right? The fact that you could have output enough damage to kill it in the time you were alive if your gear didn’t suck has nothing to do with you losing.

Star Ace.5207:

tinymurder.5791:

People using MF are sacrificing part of either their DPS or their survivability in order to get better loot. By doing so, they reduce their contributions to the group’s efforts, in order to increase their personal gain. While running solo, this is a matter of your personal choice. When running with a group, this is a wholely selfish choice. If you cannot see this, then we have nothing further to discuss & I bid you good night.

It has nothing to do with morals or “selfishness.” Many non-MF users are selfish too.

Good night to you as well.

Wasn’t speaking to you, but since you piped up:

I’m not saying it has anything to do with morality. I’ll even concede the point that not all people using MF are doing so out of selfishness, and I have never said that nonMF users aren’t selfish.

However, when the facts are laid out and you still decide to use MF gear, then yes you are making a selfish decision. Therefore, don’t be upset when the non-MF users selfishly decide they don’t want to run dungeons with you.

Good night to you as well.

Einlanzer.1627:

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

AntiGw.9367:

odysseas.1786:

Oh you play with nice people? Well so do I. Nobody will tell you anything when you are doing a normal dungeon. They will all secretely be annoyed at your better drops and less contribution but they’ll let it slip. It’s just a casual easy dungeon after all and we’re all friends and having fun. But let me tell you one thing. If your team wipes in a fractal because you can’t kill stuff fast enough or you can’t take the hits for a long enough time you WILL be kicked and replaced and your friends will kindly ask you to switch gear, or just not invite you again alltogether. If we were friends, in game or irl, and close enough so I wouldn’t get mad at you for failing, I’d definately be annoyed at your incompetence and drop hints at you to look at guides or change your gear. Cause look, I know you, I like you, you’re my friend, but when you waste 2 hours on lava shaman cause you can’t kill the adds fast enough or wipe us at jade maw cause you had to be ressed because of your MF infusions I’ll get mad.

Again, you arbitrarily assume things…

The crewes I play with value playing with people more than playing fast or having 1337 gear. Sometimes they volunteer to fill a dungeon party even though they don’t need anything from that dungeon.

That’s what is really not selfish. Not demanding that everyone should use what they want.

And I told you at some point you will move on to tougher stuff and you will either change/expand your circle of people you play with or you and your friends will all ascend to the next level. And then while they value playing with people I can 100% guarantee you that they don’t like wiping over and over and you’ll have to change.

You are assuming that he’s bad because of his gear. :P He and his friends may as well not wipe as you claim. Do not judge his skill based on his gear.

I’m not assuming anything. He could be very good and probably is a very competent player. The fact of the matter is he will eventually hit the point where gear limitations exist. MF gear is worse than its’ normal equivalent and I think any sensible person can agree on that. Hence he will have to get better gear or else he will wipe.

Correction: you assume he will (sorry, meant not offense but it’s true.) “Gear limitations” are tied to player experience, skills, Professions, and builds. There are no specific ways to conquer content other than being good at conquering it. Therefore, he may surprise you with his “inferior” gear, because of superior skill and teamwork/synergy.

Feel free to disagree, and it’s not personal.

Let’s assume john is the best gw2 player ever. He’s been playing all along, he knows every move, every cooldown, every boss telegraph and has godly dodging skills. He’s also running the optimal traits but is using MF gear. Now john here is really good. He’s gone where other couldn’t with the non-optimal gear. At some point though john will have to change his gear simply because his gear just won’t cut it anymore. It’s just impossible for him. That’s what I mean by gear limitations. Maybe john can clear a lvl 80 fractal. He will fail eventually though as harder content is released.

But this is according to your own opinion, sir, which is what I was trying to say. You think he won’t cut it once he gets to a certain point in the game, and I disagree on the grounds that you really don’t know that-you believe it, but it may not be true for him and his friends.

No, think about it. It’s not about whether or not he cuts it. Regardless of how amazing he might be as a player, he is still weaker in MF than he is in other stats, which operates as a detriment to his party 100% of the time. His performance relative to content or other players is irrelevant.

It is relevant to the point I am making to Odysseas, though it may not be to your point, which is something else.

To you I say: 100% “detriment” is circumvented by individual skill and great teamwork. If the party agreed to have MF gear users in the group, that’s fine. In your case, since you want everybody to be 100% effective, just post: “no MF gear please” and you are done.

(The problem is game design, not players and their “selfishness.” Play with like-minded players, rather than complaining about player’s being selfish for using valid MF gear that ANet designed. They are going to change the stuff in the future anyway, so do not fret about it that much.)

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Julie Yann.5379:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Julie Yann.5379:

If you did not specify in LFG that you didn’t want MF gear in your party then to bad for you, I will be wearing it. If the run goes smoothly I’will keep it on, if it looks like the group’s struggling I will change gear to help carry the weak link (I hate bad runs too). If you did not specify in LFG that you did not want MF in your party and then ask me to ping my gear after I have joined I will ping you my non MF set. Do the run and when it is over and you are saying good job, great run, I will ping you my awesome drops and my MF gear and leave.

You realize, of course, that your example of you being a lying kitten illustrates why advertising NO MF doesn’t work, right?

I you specifiy that you don’t want MF I will respect that either not join your group or not wear my MF gear. I am not a total kitten, but if get a chance to troll an elitist prick because he/she did not say what he/wanted up front when he/she advertise, I will not pass up the opportunity.

Yeah, but the very fact that you can lie like you did shows why asking for NO MF doesn’t work. There is no way to actually verify it because kittens like you can lie about it.

To be fair, and while I wouldn’t do what she does, I contend that the real “kitten” is the player that didn’t specify that they didn’t want any MF gear in the group, and then proceeded to ask her to ping her gear to “investigate” whether she does. In that way, she’s being “kitten to a kitten”, if you will.

And would it be any different if she had done the same thing to someone who said NO MF in the LFG? According to plenty of people in this thread, they’re being discriminatory elitist kittens for saying that, and so kitten to a kitten is perfectly justified.
What it boils down to is she is a lying kitten lying for the sake of being a kitten to people who want to be informed. And as it stands no one can know otherwise.
As for why it demonstrates why NO MF doesn’t work, not only can you lie about it and never be found out, but kittens like her may actually join it BECAUSE they said they didn’t want it.

Just registered to the forums to say all of you people DEFENDING MF are in denial.

The fact is, yes, MF is a detriment to the group. You say “oh a newbie in great gear or a pro in mf gear~1``!”…

Why not have a pro in great gear? I don’t see how them being good at the game automatically means they have MF gear on. If I could choose between two equally skilled people, one with mf and one with regular gear… well.

If you had to choose that for your party, would you choose the guy who is wearing MF or the guy who is contributing more? I’m not sure…

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

Blaming anything on MF is just silly.

Right. So, if a boss has a tiny sliver of health remaining when the last person goes down, and everyone was using Explorer’s instead of Berserker’s, it’s totally not because your damage was nerfed by MF, right? The fact that you could have output enough damage to kill it in the time you were alive if your gear didn’t suck has nothing to do with you losing.

It may have, or may have nothing to do too-could have been a mistake on someone else not using MF gear as well that caused the debacle in the first place.

GreyPowerVan.1835:

Just registered to the forums to say all of you people DEFENDING MF are in denial.

The fact is, yes, MF is a detriment to the group. You say “oh a newbie in great gear or a pro in mf gear~1``!”…

Why not have a pro in great gear? I don’t see how them being good at the game automatically means they have MF gear on. If I could choose between two equally skilled people, one with mf and one with regular gear… well.

If you had to choose that for your party, would you choose the guy who is wearing MF or the guy who is contributing more? I’m not sure…

I would choose the nicer of the two, regardless gear, quite honestly.

Star Ace.5207:

GreyPowerVan.1835:

Just registered to the forums to say all of you people DEFENDING MF are in denial.

The fact is, yes, MF is a detriment to the group. You say “oh a newbie in great gear or a pro in mf gear~1``!”…

Why not have a pro in great gear? I don’t see how them being good at the game automatically means they have MF gear on. If I could choose between two equally skilled people, one with mf and one with regular gear… well.

If you had to choose that for your party, would you choose the guy who is wearing MF or the guy who is contributing more? I’m not sure…

I would choose the nicer of the two, regardless gear, quite honestly.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the MF vs non MF debate.

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

Blaming anything on MF is just silly.

Right. So, if a boss has a tiny sliver of health remaining when the last person goes down, and everyone was using Explorer’s instead of Berserker’s, it’s totally not because your damage was nerfed by MF, right? The fact that you could have output enough damage to kill it in the time you were alive if your gear didn’t suck has nothing to do with you losing.

It may have, or may have nothing to do too-could have been a mistake on someone else not using MF gear as well that caused the debacle in the first place.

I’m not saying there aren’t other things that caused it as well (obviously if you wipe something went very wrong), but if they had been wearing demonstrably better gear they would have finished it even if everything had gone exactly the same.

Mirta.5029:

If they added infusion slots on all armor specifically for mf/ gold/ karma, what exactly are you sacrificing?

…that’s you big suggestion? That they put in an infusion slot, just for MF? Why not suggest a toggle switch in your settings? You could have a slider bar to select MF, Gold, Karma, or none. How about and auto-farm button?

All sarcasm aside, your suggestion boils down to telling Anet, “I don’t like your drop table/monetary scale/karma rate. Gimme more.” Thus, I find it extremely difficult to seriously consider this a solution.

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

AntiGw.9367:

odysseas.1786:

Oh you play with nice people? Well so do I. Nobody will tell you anything when you are doing a normal dungeon. They will all secretely be annoyed at your better drops and less contribution but they’ll let it slip. It’s just a casual easy dungeon after all and we’re all friends and having fun. But let me tell you one thing. If your team wipes in a fractal because you can’t kill stuff fast enough or you can’t take the hits for a long enough time you WILL be kicked and replaced and your friends will kindly ask you to switch gear, or just not invite you again alltogether. If we were friends, in game or irl, and close enough so I wouldn’t get mad at you for failing, I’d definately be annoyed at your incompetence and drop hints at you to look at guides or change your gear. Cause look, I know you, I like you, you’re my friend, but when you waste 2 hours on lava shaman cause you can’t kill the adds fast enough or wipe us at jade maw cause you had to be ressed because of your MF infusions I’ll get mad.

Again, you arbitrarily assume things…

The crewes I play with value playing with people more than playing fast or having 1337 gear. Sometimes they volunteer to fill a dungeon party even though they don’t need anything from that dungeon.

That’s what is really not selfish. Not demanding that everyone should use what they want.

And I told you at some point you will move on to tougher stuff and you will either change/expand your circle of people you play with or you and your friends will all ascend to the next level. And then while they value playing with people I can 100% guarantee you that they don’t like wiping over and over and you’ll have to change.

You are assuming that he’s bad because of his gear. :P He and his friends may as well not wipe as you claim. Do not judge his skill based on his gear.

I’m not assuming anything. He could be very good and probably is a very competent player. The fact of the matter is he will eventually hit the point where gear limitations exist. MF gear is worse than its’ normal equivalent and I think any sensible person can agree on that. Hence he will have to get better gear or else he will wipe.

Correction: you assume he will (sorry, meant not offense but it’s true.) “Gear limitations” are tied to player experience, skills, Professions, and builds. There are no specific ways to conquer content other than being good at conquering it. Therefore, he may surprise you with his “inferior” gear, because of superior skill and teamwork/synergy.

Feel free to disagree, and it’s not personal.

Let’s assume john is the best gw2 player ever. He’s been playing all along, he knows every move, every cooldown, every boss telegraph and has godly dodging skills. He’s also running the optimal traits but is using MF gear. Now john here is really good. He’s gone where other couldn’t with the non-optimal gear. At some point though john will have to change his gear simply because his gear just won’t cut it anymore. It’s just impossible for him. That’s what I mean by gear limitations. Maybe john can clear a lvl 80 fractal. He will fail eventually though as harder content is released.

But this is according to your own opinion, sir, which is what I was trying to say. You think he won’t cut it once he gets to a certain point in the game, and I disagree on the grounds that you really don’t know that-you believe it, but it may not be true for him and his friends.

There’s good Ascended MF gear available out there, at least better than Exotic Explorer’s, Traveler’s, Wayfarer’s, etc. If they decide to add better stats (I hope not, but they might) they will probably increase the Ascended MF gear stats as well-but then again, by then they may have made this a non-issue, if they rework the whole MF thing as Mr. Colin suggested they were looking into.

In short, there are no gear limitations barring infusions. Optimal builds are a player’s point of view. No specific builds/gear are really required, especially since they depend on the player skill, Profession, and personal taste (AFAIK, infusions are the only quasi-gating system in place right now, not any other specific gear limitations, which are usually another player’s preference and opinion, and not really demanded by the game’s content.)

At some point it’s no longer a matter of opinion. The content is just too hard. Perhaps if all of his party had optimal gear they could pull it off. Also with utility infusions giving 20% MF they are a very attractive choice.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Julie Yann.5379:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Julie Yann.5379:

If you did not specify in LFG that you didn’t want MF gear in your party then to bad for you, I will be wearing it. If the run goes smoothly I’will keep it on, if it looks like the group’s struggling I will change gear to help carry the weak link (I hate bad runs too). If you did not specify in LFG that you did not want MF in your party and then ask me to ping my gear after I have joined I will ping you my non MF set. Do the run and when it is over and you are saying good job, great run, I will ping you my awesome drops and my MF gear and leave.

You realize, of course, that your example of you being a lying kitten illustrates why advertising NO MF doesn’t work, right?

I you specifiy that you don’t want MF I will respect that either not join your group or not wear my MF gear. I am not a total kitten, but if get a chance to troll an elitist prick because he/she did not say what he/wanted up front when he/she advertise, I will not pass up the opportunity.

Yeah, but the very fact that you can lie like you did shows why asking for NO MF doesn’t work. There is no way to actually verify it because kittens like you can lie about it.

To be fair, and while I wouldn’t do what she does, I contend that the real “kitten” is the player that didn’t specify that they didn’t want any MF gear in the group, and then proceeded to ask her to ping her gear to “investigate” whether she does. In that way, she’s being “kitten to a kitten”, if you will.

And would it be any different if she had done the same thing to someone who said NO MF in the LFG? According to plenty of people in this thread, they’re being discriminatory elitist kittens for saying that, and so kitten to a kitten is perfectly justified.
What it boils down to is she is a lying kitten lying for the sake of being a kitten to people who want to be informed. And as it stands no one can know otherwise.
As for why it demonstrates why NO MF doesn’t work, not only can you lie about it and never be found out, but kittens like her may actually join it BECAUSE they said they didn’t want it.

She didn’t do that, though, so you are accusing her for being a “kitten” she isn’t-just based on past experiences with perhaps “true kittens”, which she doesn’t seem to be.

If I asked for a casual speedrun, and then asked for your Berserker’s gear, how silly would that be? To be honest, showing them the “zerk” gear and then using Cleric’s wouldn’t be much different than what she did to them-“en eye for an eye” treatment.

Would I do it? No, I generally leave groups once they question my gear, even if I have what they require of me.

Star Ace.5207:

GreyPowerVan.1835:

Just registered to the forums to say all of you people DEFENDING MF are in denial.

The fact is, yes, MF is a detriment to the group. You say “oh a newbie in great gear or a pro in mf gear~1``!”…

Why not have a pro in great gear? I don’t see how them being good at the game automatically means they have MF gear on. If I could choose between two equally skilled people, one with mf and one with regular gear… well.

If you had to choose that for your party, would you choose the guy who is wearing MF or the guy who is contributing more? I’m not sure…

I would choose the nicer of the two, regardless gear, quite honestly.

I don’t like mean people either. But honestly if someone is just straight up not doing enough I’ll grab the guy who’ll toss a stfu or this group isn’t fast enough and peacefully do my dungeon. That said if they are being outright obnoxious I won’t tolerate them. This is a whole different matter though.

odysseas.1786:

At some point it’s no longer a matter of opinion. The content is just too hard. Perhaps if all of his party had optimal gear they could pull it off. Also with utility infusions giving 20% MF they are a very attractive choice.

Even “at some point it’s no longer a matter of opinion” is your opinion. Unless ANet states otherwise, it will always be an opinion which gear/build is “required” to finish future difficult content, even if the suggested builds are really good or effective-that’s all I am trying to say.

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Julie Yann.5379:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Julie Yann.5379:

If you did not specify in LFG that you didn’t want MF gear in your party then to bad for you, I will be wearing it. If the run goes smoothly I’will keep it on, if it looks like the group’s struggling I will change gear to help carry the weak link (I hate bad runs too). If you did not specify in LFG that you did not want MF in your party and then ask me to ping my gear after I have joined I will ping you my non MF set. Do the run and when it is over and you are saying good job, great run, I will ping you my awesome drops and my MF gear and leave.

You realize, of course, that your example of you being a lying kitten illustrates why advertising NO MF doesn’t work, right?

I you specifiy that you don’t want MF I will respect that either not join your group or not wear my MF gear. I am not a total kitten, but if get a chance to troll an elitist prick because he/she did not say what he/wanted up front when he/she advertise, I will not pass up the opportunity.

Yeah, but the very fact that you can lie like you did shows why asking for NO MF doesn’t work. There is no way to actually verify it because kittens like you can lie about it.

To be fair, and while I wouldn’t do what she does, I contend that the real “kitten” is the player that didn’t specify that they didn’t want any MF gear in the group, and then proceeded to ask her to ping her gear to “investigate” whether she does. In that way, she’s being “kitten to a kitten”, if you will.

And would it be any different if she had done the same thing to someone who said NO MF in the LFG? According to plenty of people in this thread, they’re being discriminatory elitist kittens for saying that, and so kitten to a kitten is perfectly justified.
What it boils down to is she is a lying kitten lying for the sake of being a kitten to people who want to be informed. And as it stands no one can know otherwise.
As for why it demonstrates why NO MF doesn’t work, not only can you lie about it and never be found out, but kittens like her may actually join it BECAUSE they said they didn’t want it.

She didn’t do that, though, so you are accusing her for being a “kitten” she isn’t-just based on past experiences with perhaps “true kittens”, which she doesn’t seem to be.

If I asked for a casual speedrun, and then asked for your Berserker’s gear, how silly would that be? To be honest, showing them the “zerk” gear and then using Cleric’s wouldn’t be much different than what she did to them-“en eye for an eye” treatment.

Would I do it? No, I generally leave groups once they question my gear, even if I have what they require of me.

The seed of the problem is still there, and present in many people: spite. She did that out of spite towards the person who didn’t advertise that they were going to gear check. Plenty of other people would be willing to take it a little further and join one listed as NO MF and link real gear out of spite for people who don’t like MF.
And there’s no real way to verify if someone is telling the truth.

odysseas.1786:

Star Ace.5207:

GreyPowerVan.1835:

Just registered to the forums to say all of you people DEFENDING MF are in denial.

The fact is, yes, MF is a detriment to the group. You say “oh a newbie in great gear or a pro in mf gear~1``!”…

Why not have a pro in great gear? I don’t see how them being good at the game automatically means they have MF gear on. If I could choose between two equally skilled people, one with mf and one with regular gear… well.

If you had to choose that for your party, would you choose the guy who is wearing MF or the guy who is contributing more? I’m not sure…

I would choose the nicer of the two, regardless gear, quite honestly.

I don’t like mean people either. But honestly if someone is just straight up not doing enough I’ll grab the guy who’ll toss a stfu or this group isn’t fast enough and peacefully do my dungeon. That said if they are being outright obnoxious I won’t tolerate them. This is a whole different matter though.

I prefer a nice player that is learning the game than a “pro” with Legendary who bosses everyone around (Legendary/experience is not wrong-the bad attitude is). I never get to know who isn’t “doing enough” unless they are intentionally not doing something (like intentional grieving group members by refusing to move, or acting very erratically, much like trolling in-game.) Slower is better in a party who gets along, but then again, that’s just my personal preference. Anyone who spouts “this group is not fast enough” will be thanked upon Dungeon completion, we’ll disband the group, and re-group without him/her for our next ventures, so he/she finds a more “efficient” group where he/she can enjoy himself/herself better, and leave us to our fun.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Julie Yann.5379:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Julie Yann.5379:

If you did not specify in LFG that you didn’t want MF gear in your party then to bad for you, I will be wearing it. If the run goes smoothly I’will keep it on, if it looks like the group’s struggling I will change gear to help carry the weak link (I hate bad runs too). If you did not specify in LFG that you did not want MF in your party and then ask me to ping my gear after I have joined I will ping you my non MF set. Do the run and when it is over and you are saying good job, great run, I will ping you my awesome drops and my MF gear and leave.

You realize, of course, that your example of you being a lying kitten illustrates why advertising NO MF doesn’t work, right?

I you specifiy that you don’t want MF I will respect that either not join your group or not wear my MF gear. I am not a total kitten, but if get a chance to troll an elitist prick because he/she did not say what he/wanted up front when he/she advertise, I will not pass up the opportunity.

Yeah, but the very fact that you can lie like you did shows why asking for NO MF doesn’t work. There is no way to actually verify it because kittens like you can lie about it.

To be fair, and while I wouldn’t do what she does, I contend that the real “kitten” is the player that didn’t specify that they didn’t want any MF gear in the group, and then proceeded to ask her to ping her gear to “investigate” whether she does. In that way, she’s being “kitten to a kitten”, if you will.

And would it be any different if she had done the same thing to someone who said NO MF in the LFG? According to plenty of people in this thread, they’re being discriminatory elitist kittens for saying that, and so kitten to a kitten is perfectly justified.
What it boils down to is she is a lying kitten lying for the sake of being a kitten to people who want to be informed. And as it stands no one can know otherwise.
As for why it demonstrates why NO MF doesn’t work, not only can you lie about it and never be found out, but kittens like her may actually join it BECAUSE they said they didn’t want it.

She didn’t do that, though, so you are accusing her for being a “kitten” she isn’t-just based on past experiences with perhaps “true kittens”, which she doesn’t seem to be.

If I asked for a casual speedrun, and then asked for your Berserker’s gear, how silly would that be? To be honest, showing them the “zerk” gear and then using Cleric’s wouldn’t be much different than what she did to them-“en eye for an eye” treatment.

Would I do it? No, I generally leave groups once they question my gear, even if I have what they require of me.

The seed of the problem is still there, and present in many people: spite. She did that out of spite towards the person who didn’t advertise that they were going to gear check. Plenty of other people would be willing to take it a little further and join one listed as NO MF and link real gear out of spite for people who don’t like MF.
And there’s no real way to verify if someone is telling the truth.

You are right, there is no way of knowing. I guess you just have to trust that people are decent enough to respect your choice in party makeup. Personally, I wish Anet would have just given us a decent loot table and not have to use MF at all. I hate using it, but I hate kittenty drops even more. I would prefer to use all combat stats on my gear but Anets idea of a good reward is a chest full of blues after an hour long Arah run, I say kitten on that. I will run with full MF and get green and yellow.

Julie Yann.5379:

I would prefer to use all combat stats on my gear but Anets idea of a good reward is a chest full of blues after an hour long Arah run, I say kitten on that. I will run with full MF and get green and yellow.

However MF doesn’t even work on Chests. So really it doesn’t help there.

This is another reason I’m not a fan of MF in Dungeons. Take CoF path 1, 2 Mobs that can drop loot, Boss that drops loot, Mobs that everyone skips, respawning mobs that don’t drop loot, boulders, respawning mobs that don’t drop loot, final boss that drops loot.. So in a CoF path 1 run. 2 bosses and 2 mobs in the whole run that can drop loot, is that really worth the drop in stats.

And it’s similar in a lot of the dungeons. There are places that MF is useful. Dredge Trash, Ascalonian Streets, The mobs on the way to the Maw. Almost everywhere else I would say it’s completely pointless.

Flissy.4093:

Where is it good?
I will admit, Magic Find is actually good and I recommend to use it in some situations. I will list these situations below:

• Large scale events, such as many Cursed Shore events. This is due to them being “mass tag” events.

And thus ends that list.

---

Why is it bad for solo play?
Simple – You’re giving up offensive potential for an increased drop rate on certain items. So why is this bad in solo play?

Also simple – less kills per hour - Less kills per hour = less loot per hour. Counter-productive isn’t it?

While it wastes time in solo play, it only wastes your own time, which you are, of course, entitled to.

---

TLDR; Magic Find is bad – don’t use it.

I don’t agree with this because you do realize that diminishing returns happens after so many kills in an unknown time period right? So less kills but HIGHER chance to get rarer loot IS better then killing faster with lower chance and hitting diminishing returns sooner. If diminishing didn’t exist then yes you would have a valid point.

I have a question for those that are against people using magic find gear in a dungeon setting. Let us assume that you were the only person out of 5 not wearing magic find gear, the other 4 were. Would you still accuse the other 4 of not doing their fair share? How do you determine what is a fair share anyways? That part is highly subjective. Is it by DPS only? Perhaps whoever survives the longest?

I ask this as we had a group of 5 not 3 days ago running the Living Story dungeon. On the final 2 bosses we wiped the first two times until we figured out the patterns and on our last attempt we succeeded. The ironic thing is the one person that survived long enough to rez the others happened to be wearing magic find gear. She was a Ranger and her pet kept the last boss standing busy long enough for her to get the others up. However according to many here that person would not have been valuable to their group and a waste of a spot as she was wearing mf gear.

Once again I will reiterate what many have tried to say here. It is not the gear that makes a person valuable to the group and the value of the gear is highly overrated when DPS numbers take precedence over everything else the person has to offer.

Theftwind.8976:

I have a question for those that are against people using magic find gear in a dungeon setting. Let us assume that you were the only person out of 5 not wearing magic find gear, the other 4 were. Would you still accuse the other 4 of not doing their fair share? How do you determine what is a fair share anyways? That part is highly subjective. Is it by DPS only? Perhaps whoever survives the longest?

I ask this as we had a group of 5 not 3 days ago running the Living Story dungeon. On the final 2 bosses we wiped the first two times until we figured out the patterns and on our last attempt we succeeded. The ironic thing is the one person that survived long enough to rez the others happened to be wearing magic find gear. She was a Ranger and her pet kept the last boss standing busy long enough for her to get the others up. However according to many here that person would not have been valuable to their group and a waste of a spot as she was wearing mf gear.

Once again I will reiterate what many have tried to say here. It is not the gear that makes a person valuable to the group and the value of the gear is highly overrated when DPS numbers take precedence over everything else the person has to offer.

Like many people in this thread, you are not correctly diagnosing the problem. The problem is the stat itself, not how well so-and-so can still do with it.

Theftwind.8976:

I have a question for those that are against people using magic find gear in a dungeon setting. Let us assume that you were the only person out of 5 not wearing magic find gear, the other 4 were. Would you still accuse the other 4 of not doing their fair share? How do you determine what is a fair share anyways? That part is highly subjective. Is it by DPS only? Perhaps whoever survives the longest?

I ask this as we had a group of 5 not 3 days ago running the Living Story dungeon. On the final 2 bosses we wiped the first two times until we figured out the patterns and on our last attempt we succeeded. The ironic thing is the one person that survived long enough to rez the others happened to be wearing magic find gear. She was a Ranger and her pet kept the last boss standing busy long enough for her to get the others up. However according to many here that person would not have been valuable to their group and a waste of a spot as she was wearing mf gear.

Once again I will reiterate what many have tried to say here. It is not the gear that makes a person valuable to the group and the value of the gear is highly overrated when DPS numbers take precedence over everything else the person has to offer.

Well, for harder dungeons magic find hinders toughness/health/DPS etc which in turn makes the entire party get through a dungeon slower, die more often etc. Sure you can run a dungeon with half the DPS and half the survivability and succeed while everyone else does the work but my biggest issue is not being able to view other players gear/not allow magic find in a group, etc. If I saw anyone using magic find in high level fractals I would instant boot them out of my party. They need to implement a way to monitor/control MF in group settings. I’m not against MF, I’m against not having control over it when MF hinders progress.

Ratty.5176:

Julie Yann.5379:

I would prefer to use all combat stats on my gear but Anets idea of a good reward is a chest full of blues after an hour long Arah run, I say kitten on that. I will run with full MF and get green and yellow.

However MF doesn’t even work on Chests. So really it doesn’t help there.

This is another reason I’m not a fan of MF in Dungeons. Take CoF path 1, 2 Mobs that can drop loot, Boss that drops loot, Mobs that everyone skips, respawning mobs that don’t drop loot, boulders, respawning mobs that don’t drop loot, final boss that drops loot.. So in a CoF path 1 run. 2 bosses and 2 mobs in the whole run that can drop loot, is that really worth the drop in stats.

And it’s similar in a lot of the dungeons. There are places that MF is useful. Dredge Trash, Ascalonian Streets, The mobs on the way to the Maw. Almost everywhere else I would say it’s completely pointless.

The only dungeons I ever really run are fractals up to lvl 30 because of the reasons you just listed. I used Arah as an example only cause it probably has the worst time invested/rewards ratio due to it’s lengthy paths, though there is quite a few trash mobs in Arah. They say that MF doesn’t affect chests but the content of the chest is determined when you kill. So wouldn’t having MF at that point in time affect the contents of the chest? Just a thought. Anet has never been clear about it that aspect of it and until they tell me otherwise I will continue to think that it does.

Einlanzer.1627:

Like many people in this thread, you are not correctly diagnosing the problem. The problem is the stat itself, not how well so-and-so can still do with it.[/quote]

No the problem is with gearcentric people thinking their way to play is the only way to play. I am diagnosing the problem quite well as I dig further to find a root cause and the root cause is not mf wearing people. The root cause is expecting everyone to be as good as the next person to insure that COF run can be done in record time so it can be posted on you tube and bragged about.

But I don’t think anyone is saying that it’s about doing CoF faster. It’s about a social contract, when you make a team with people you are making a social contract which is more or less saying I want to get through this dungeon, I will do everything I can to help the group, and in return I expect the players give me the same respect. This is core to being a team. If I’m doing everything I can to give the team the best I can, and someone in the team spends 1/3 of the run AFK I would feel they had broke the social contract, they signed up for the team and then AFK’d while the rest of the team did the work. It’s similar with MF, if everyone is attempting their best, has the best gear they can afford, having 1 player not contributing everything they can and getting more loot is really breaking the social contract.

Now it’s fine for you to make a different social contract with people. EG we are getting together to farm all the mobs in this Dungeon, everyone bring Magic Find. There really is no issue with that.

But sneaking your MF gear on during a run so you can not contribute the most you can and on top of that get more loot is a breach of etiquette. And seeing as the majority of players I believe would consider running MF in a dungeon to be against the norm, the onus is really on the player wanting to use MF to inform the team. I do the same if I have my full Zerker Warrior, I openly say “this toon is fairly fragile, so you might need to keep an eye on me”.

CoF path 1 farming is another example of this. It’s open from the outset that everyone is running Zerker gear, I have put the effort into getting all the gear necessary together, and therefore I expect everyone else to do the same. This has openly been agreed when someone answers my advert. If someone doesn’t have the gear and lies about it, they are breaking this contract and the team will likely fail.

Theftwind.8976:

I have a question for those that are against people using magic find gear in a dungeon setting. Let us assume that you were the only person out of 5 not wearing magic find gear, the other 4 were. Would you still accuse the other 4 of not doing their fair share? How do you determine what is a fair share anyways? That part is highly subjective. Is it by DPS only? Perhaps whoever survives the longest?

I ask this as we had a group of 5 not 3 days ago running the Living Story dungeon. On the final 2 bosses we wiped the first two times until we figured out the patterns and on our last attempt we succeeded. The ironic thing is the one person that survived long enough to rez the others happened to be wearing magic find gear. She was a Ranger and her pet kept the last boss standing busy long enough for her to get the others up. However according to many here that person would not have been valuable to their group and a waste of a spot as she was wearing mf gear.

Once again I will reiterate what many have tried to say here. It is not the gear that makes a person valuable to the group and the value of the gear is highly overrated when DPS numbers take precedence over everything else the person has to offer.

So the Ranger stayed alive well enough to rez you guys without survival stats from gear.
Seeing as Berserker’s also has no survival stats, this is relevant… how? Oh right, it’s not.
No one is denying someone can be of value despite MF gear. However, they are of greater value in another set, as other sets are numerically superior. And this loss of value is for an entirely self-centered bonus that has no impact on the rest of the group, unlike every other stat.

Ratty.5176:

But I don’t think anyone is saying that it’s about doing CoF faster. It’s about a social contract, when you make a team with people you are making a social contract which is more or less saying I want to get through this dungeon, I will do everything I can to help the group, and in return I expect the players give me the same respect. This is core to being a team. If I’m doing everything I can to give the team the best I can, and someone in the team spends 1/3 of the run AFK I would feel they had broke the social contract, they signed up for the team and then AFK’d while the rest of the team did the work. It’s similar with MF, if everyone is attempting their best, has the best gear they can afford, having 1 player not contributing everything they can and getting more loot is really breaking the social contract.

Now it’s fine for you to make a different social contract with people. EG we are getting together to farm all the mobs in this Dungeon, everyone bring Magic Find. There really is no issue with that.

But sneaking your MF gear on during a run so you can not contribute the most you can and on top of that get more loot is a breach of etiquette. And seeing as the majority of players I believe would consider running MF in a dungeon to be against the norm, the onus is really on the player wanting to use MF to inform the team. I do the same if I have my full Zerker Warrior, I openly say “this toon is fairly fragile, so you might need to keep an eye on me”.

CoF path 1 farming is another example of this. It’s open that everyone is running Zerker gear, I have put the effort into getting all the gear necessary together, and therefore I expect everyone else to do the same. This has openly been agreed when someone answers my advert. If someone doesn’t have the gear and lies about it, they are breaking this contract and the team will likely fail.

I agree it’s a social contract-that’s why calling MF users “selfish” misses the point. It’s exactly the same as saying all Berserker’s gear players “dirtnap” all the time-a non-factual exaggeration based on past bad experiences. There’s nothing morally wrong with players using MF gear( OR Berserker’s, OR Cleric’s, OR Soldier’s)-people just have to agree with what they want or not in their parties-and thus all the negativity ends.

Of course I don’t like players telling others how to play, but what I do is just avoid those people and their groups-we are not very compatible and won’t be having much fun together, regardless skill or experience (never mind the gear, which hardly matters. :P)

As aforementioned, the problem with MF is not that it “promotes selfishness” (as if many players really cared about others that much?), but that a combat stat is replaced by an “adventuring” stat, making it undesirable in many situations, for both groups and individuals. They are looking into this as a genuine problem-end of thread.

Star Ace.5207:

MF gear( OR Berserker’s, OR Cleric’s, OR Soldier’s)

One of these is not like the others.
One of these has no conceivable advantage in a fight over another piece of gear (Explorer’s vs Berserker’s/Rampager’s (I won’t count Knight’s since the higher Toughness draws aggro and may be harmful sometimes), Traveler’s vs Rampagers/Carrion, Wayfarer’s vs Soldier’s). The only MF set that isn’t utterly inferior to another is Giver’s on jewelry (which is for the Boon Duration much more than for the MF), or Celestial, which is because it gives everything.
Comparing useful stat sets to MF does them a disservice, as they are of conceivable value, whereas MF is not.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Theftwind.8976:

I have a question for those that are against people using magic find gear in a dungeon setting. Let us assume that you were the only person out of 5 not wearing magic find gear, the other 4 were. Would you still accuse the other 4 of not doing their fair share? How do you determine what is a fair share anyways? That part is highly subjective. Is it by DPS only? Perhaps whoever survives the longest?

I ask this as we had a group of 5 not 3 days ago running the Living Story dungeon. On the final 2 bosses we wiped the first two times until we figured out the patterns and on our last attempt we succeeded. The ironic thing is the one person that survived long enough to rez the others happened to be wearing magic find gear. She was a Ranger and her pet kept the last boss standing busy long enough for her to get the others up. However according to many here that person would not have been valuable to their group and a waste of a spot as she was wearing mf gear.

Once again I will reiterate what many have tried to say here. It is not the gear that makes a person valuable to the group and the value of the gear is highly overrated when DPS numbers take precedence over everything else the person has to offer.

So the Ranger stayed alive well enough to rez you guys without survival stats from gear.
Seeing as Berserker’s also has no survival stats, this is relevant… how? Oh right, it’s not.
No one is denying someone can be of value despite MF gear. However, they are of greater value in another set, as other sets are numerically superior. And this loss of value is for an entirely self-centered bonus that has no impact on the rest of the group, unlike every other stat.

If it was meant by ANet for it to be a “selfish stat” (I have never met selfish numbers, but I guess those things do exist), why was it implemented in the first place? Especially since game design leans towards the cooperative side way more than the competitive. IMHO, it’s just gear that forces you to choose between stat focusing and loot chance %-which is a benefit to many players, but can also be a problem since you can’t have the best of both worlds.

In short, I am not opposing people not liking MF gear-fine, why use what you don’t like for whatever reasons?-but that people justify not using it by hating on players who use it, making it a personal and moral issue (“selfishness”.) If no one forces you to choose something other than Berserker’s (for instance), no one should make feel other players “selfish” for using MF gear-it’s totally inaccurate in many, many cases that people use MF gear just to “leech” of a group-even if it could happen-much like not every player that uses Berserker’s gear is an intolerant elitist.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Star Ace.5207:

MF gear( OR Berserker’s, OR Cleric’s, OR Soldier’s)

One of these is not like the others.
One of these has no conceivable advantage in a fight over another piece of gear (Explorer’s vs Berserker’s/Rampager’s (I won’t count Knight’s since the higher Toughness draws aggro and may be harmful sometimes), Traveler’s vs Rampagers/Carrion, Wayfarer’s vs Soldier’s). The only MF set that isn’t utterly inferior to another is Giver’s on jewelry (which is for the Boon Duration much more than for the MF), or Celestial, which is because it gives everything.
Comparing useful stat sets to MF does them a disservice, as they are of conceivable value, whereas MF is not.

As I said before, to the uber efficient kind of player, what they call “useless” stats don’t exist. To him/her, no other set other than Berserker’s matters. MF gear is the same as Soldier’s to them-a waste of stats that could have been better used to be more efficient. Which is why prejudice against one set or the other-including Berserker’s-should not be tolerated, IM strong O (and why I never treat MF gear users as inferior or “selfish”-someone could blame me of the same for not using the stats they deem are better for me, even if I would rather not use what they use.)

Do not worry, as it’s bound to be changed given the official developer response. It’s kind of a waste of time at this point to debate about “selfishness” and stuff when things will probably be different at some point, and all of this forgotten, unless you have an useful idea on how to better implement it, and post about it.

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Theftwind.8976:

I have a question for those that are against people using magic find gear in a dungeon setting. Let us assume that you were the only person out of 5 not wearing magic find gear, the other 4 were. Would you still accuse the other 4 of not doing their fair share? How do you determine what is a fair share anyways? That part is highly subjective. Is it by DPS only? Perhaps whoever survives the longest?

I ask this as we had a group of 5 not 3 days ago running the Living Story dungeon. On the final 2 bosses we wiped the first two times until we figured out the patterns and on our last attempt we succeeded. The ironic thing is the one person that survived long enough to rez the others happened to be wearing magic find gear. She was a Ranger and her pet kept the last boss standing busy long enough for her to get the others up. However according to many here that person would not have been valuable to their group and a waste of a spot as she was wearing mf gear.

Once again I will reiterate what many have tried to say here. It is not the gear that makes a person valuable to the group and the value of the gear is highly overrated when DPS numbers take precedence over everything else the person has to offer.

So the Ranger stayed alive well enough to rez you guys without survival stats from gear.
Seeing as Berserker’s also has no survival stats, this is relevant… how? Oh right, it’s not.
No one is denying someone can be of value despite MF gear. However, they are of greater value in another set, as other sets are numerically superior. And this loss of value is for an entirely self-centered bonus that has no impact on the rest of the group, unlike every other stat.

If it was meant by ANet for it to be a “selfish stat” (I have never met selfish numbers, but I guess those things do exist), why was it implemented in the first place? Especially since game design leans towards the cooperative side way more than the competitive. IMHO, it’s just gear that forces you to choose between stat focusing and loot chance %-which is a benefit to many players, but can also be a problem since you can’t have the best of both worlds.

In short, I am not opposing people not liking MF gear-fine, why use what you don’t like for whatever reasons?-but that people justify not using it by hating on players who use it, making it a personal and moral issue (“selfishness”.) If no one forces you to choose something other than Berserker’s (for instance), no one should make feel other players “selfish” for using MF gear-it’s totally inaccurate in many, many cases that people use MF gear just to “leech” of a group-even if it could happen-much like not every player that uses Berserker’s gear is an intolerant elitist.

Well considering Colin’s post on page 1 of this thread, it certainly is a very good question why they put it in like they did when they apparently feel it’s bad.
And the difference between getting mad at people over MF and getting mad over other stats is that other stats can be argued to be better than something else. You can feel as if someone is actually trying to do the best they can with any other stat, because they all have merits. MF sets do not. You see someone with MF and you see someone who is actively not attempting to do their best, and it’s because they want better drops for themselves. Which is fine solo, but in a group, social contract. Then, not only are they breaching the social contract by not trying their best, but they’re also getting better drops because of their breach.

Star Ace.5207:

As I said before, to the uber efficient kind of player, what they call “useless” stats don’t exist. To him/her, no other set other than Berserker’s matters. MF gear is the same as Soldier’s to them-a waste of stats that could have been better used to be more efficient. Which is why prejudice against one set or the other-including Berserker’s-should not be tolerated, IM strong O (and why I never treat MF gear users as inferior or “selfish”-someone could blame me of the same for not using the stats they deem are better for me, even if I would rather not use what they use.)

And as I said before, no matter what those people say, the other stats do SOMETHING, even if sub-optimal. MF does NOTHING to help fight. Zero. Nadda. Zilch.
In fact, as it replaces useful stats, it does LESS than nothing. If it didn’t replace stats that are actually useful no one would care, but since it is of NEGATIVE value in a fight, it is inarguably worse in a fight from any standpoint, and it is inarguably worse for the rest of the group from any standpoint.
Also, the uber-efficiency folks will still acknowledge the existence of other stats, as they must be considered as candidates for maximum efficiency. If conditions got buffed (and the cap was removed and stacking fixed) they may well be considered as an alternative to zerker.

And I shall bring up the definition again since it apparently needs restating.

self·ish [sel-fish]
adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

Picking a stat that only benefits the user (concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare), unlike every other stat, to the detriment of the group (regardless of others) fits the definition perfectly.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Theftwind.8976:

I have a question for those that are against people using magic find gear in a dungeon setting. Let us assume that you were the only person out of 5 not wearing magic find gear, the other 4 were. Would you still accuse the other 4 of not doing their fair share? How do you determine what is a fair share anyways? That part is highly subjective. Is it by DPS only? Perhaps whoever survives the longest?

I ask this as we had a group of 5 not 3 days ago running the Living Story dungeon. On the final 2 bosses we wiped the first two times until we figured out the patterns and on our last attempt we succeeded. The ironic thing is the one person that survived long enough to rez the others happened to be wearing magic find gear. She was a Ranger and her pet kept the last boss standing busy long enough for her to get the others up. However according to many here that person would not have been valuable to their group and a waste of a spot as she was wearing mf gear.

Once again I will reiterate what many have tried to say here. It is not the gear that makes a person valuable to the group and the value of the gear is highly overrated when DPS numbers take precedence over everything else the person has to offer.

So the Ranger stayed alive well enough to rez you guys without survival stats from gear.
Seeing as Berserker’s also has no survival stats, this is relevant… how? Oh right, it’s not.
No one is denying someone can be of value despite MF gear. However, they are of greater value in another set, as other sets are numerically superior. And this loss of value is for an entirely self-centered bonus that has no impact on the rest of the group, unlike every other stat.

If it was meant by ANet for it to be a “selfish stat” (I have never met selfish numbers, but I guess those things do exist), why was it implemented in the first place? Especially since game design leans towards the cooperative side way more than the competitive. IMHO, it’s just gear that forces you to choose between stat focusing and loot chance %-which is a benefit to many players, but can also be a problem since you can’t have the best of both worlds.

In short, I am not opposing people not liking MF gear-fine, why use what you don’t like for whatever reasons?-but that people justify not using it by hating on players who use it, making it a personal and moral issue (“selfishness”.) If no one forces you to choose something other than Berserker’s (for instance), no one should make feel other players “selfish” for using MF gear-it’s totally inaccurate in many, many cases that people use MF gear just to “leech” of a group-even if it could happen-much like not every player that uses Berserker’s gear is an intolerant elitist.

Well considering Colin’s post on page 1 of this thread, it certainly is a very good question why they put it in like they did when they apparently feel it’s bad.
And the difference between getting mad at people over MF and getting mad over other stats is that other stats can be argued to be better than something else. You can feel as if someone is actually trying to do the best they can with any other stat, because they all have merits. MF sets do not. You see someone with MF and you see someone who is actively not attempting to do their best, and it’s because they want better drops for themselves. Which is fine solo, but in a group, social contract. Then, not only are they breaching the social contract by not trying their best, but they’re also getting better drops because of their breach.

Do not judge all players by their gear use, is all I wish for people to do. FotM gear doesn’t make you a god-practice and experience yields skill. I would never use MF gear in a group that has stated they don’t want it (well, I don’t use it on dungeons at all, save my Syzygy and Ancient Karka Shell with Ruby Jewel on my Warrior), but I don’t see why it’s wrong if every one in the group agrees. I won’t feel “cheated” by a player having theoretically better drops than me-I don’t begrudge people their good luck, and my social contracts are quite freeing-use whatever works for ya. I have met selfish Berserker’s players, and selfless MF gear users, even if you deem that to be an impossibility due to the way it was designed.

I do understand the design problem, but I can’t relate to all the complaining and worrying about whatever someone else uses (“he/she is being selfish!”, I am so much moral than he/she is!"), if you can just group with like-minded people instead of being paranoid about PUGS in your party (no offense intended, and not referring to yourself.)