Guild Wars 2

I am so selfish. I wear MF gear to get better drops to further my personal gain. I play WvW and all that persona; gain goes into helping my server win. I can barely maintain 15G in my account. I am and WvW player, running dungeons and PvE is how I make my WvW money. I have no legendary, no cultural armor no fancy expensive skins. I have almost 0 mats cause I have to sell it all. If I stopped wearing MF then I would not be able to help my server the way I do. Yes I am very selfish.

I here talk about these social contracts and obligations and I rofl. You guys take this kitten way too seriously. It’s just a kittening game played with strangers that don’t give a kitten about you or how you feel and that is the truth.

maddoctor.2738:

The “problem” with MF gear and when it becomes “bad” is when you using MF at the cost of better stats, as Colin himself states, they want to fix this and they SHOULD fix this, there is no arguing about it. It’s terrible design plain and simple and everyone should agree with this, fortunately the devs do.

One other thing, I only call Selfish those who deliberately choose to use MF over more useful stats, for pure personal benefit while offering less to the group, that’s pure selfishness, you put yourself above the group. It doesn’t matter how you live your personal life, and how much you help your friends and guildies, for those randoms you group with, while using full MF gear, you are being selfish at them, there is no denying this.

Maybe I should’ve made that distinction to avoid confusion… The Full Explorer with Noble Runes IS Selfish, the one using the “all stat” gear is not, he is using all the stats for the benefit of his build, MF is an added bonus, Explorer users aren’t using the extra stat at all, to benefit the team, only for personal gain so they are being selfish.

Finally, I regularly see posted Berserker as the alternative to Explorer, but I must add that Cavalier, Valkyrie, Rampager and other stat combinations offer better DAMAGE (while also offering other stats like Toughness/Vitality/Condition Damage/Healing) than Explorer. It’s not an issue of “run Berserker instead of Explorer”, that’s false. Many many gear combinations are far superior to Explorer in terms of DPS while also offering more than just damage.

So, this is your “solution” ATM (which is what I don’t agree with, and never will):

-Instead of just not partying up with people that use MF gear, blaming their moral character/making them feel “guilty” about their gear choice, as if there was another way around that conundrum. It inconveniences you, and makes you feel bad-dare I say envious?-if they get better drops than you do, because in your eyes, you deserve the better drops since you theoretically are “contributing more” to the group (in quotes because ultimate contribution depends on actual playstyle rather than gear, but that’s another angle to the story.)

I offer a more peaceful solution, while they go about fixing this issue-do not care, and just party with people that think the way you do.

Your opinion of why it is “selfish” to employ this gear has no bearing on the reality that people need not be necessarily selfish in order to use an Exotic full MF set. When I crafted my Explorer’s full set for my Guardian I wasn’t thinking “gwahahahahah, I am going to troll the efficiency fiends with this! I’ll get better loot while they carry me through Dungeons, hahahah” but more, “Nice, now I can get better drops from the zombies at Orr, though I certainly do hate playing with this set vs what I am used to!” The reason I do not use it on Dungeons is simple-I hated that, as a Guardian, I lost either too much armor or healing power as a result. Hard to get used to the way it impacts my playstyle, so I prefer to play with better stats. Orr is fine, but even there I cannot afford too many mistakes if I am farming 6+ mobs at a time (normal gear, ten+ mobs are not that hard at all with Guardian). Since I do use Wayfarer’s Trinkets with Opal Jewels, it’s not as glassy as Full Explorer’s, but it still is inconvenient gameplay due to somewhat massive stat loss. And THAT is the problem with MF gear, not whether it’s moral or immoral to use them-the moral issue is used as justification to hate how the system works, but isn’t really “true” nor needed.

In short: you do not need to justify your gear choices and dislike of the MF system by calling those who would employ it selfish. You can just hate it, state your case (as I did above), but without putting the moral blame on people you don’t know. It is similarly not fair if I would call EVERY player that farms CoF 1 ala “zerk” an elitist with an attitude, because I know people that have healthy, non-arrogant reasons why they farm CoF 1 that way and are not elitists in the least. I would be in the wrong for judging their character (“darn elitists all of them!”) based on my bias against something I wouldn’t do myself (excluding others for my own convenience/gain) but is still allowed in-game. It is a problem with the game’s design (forced to choose better stats vs possible better drops), not people’s morals-you may as well accuse ANet for “promoting selfishness” as you would see it, rather than the players.

The above is not meant to offend, but just so you see why I deem it inappropriate to blame other people’s character for a game design problem that is none of their moral fault.

diablo 3 went through the same issue.

their solution was to phase the stat out of being “needed” on armor by creating another ridiculously grindy leveling system (accessed once you reached max level) that gave you incremental mf increases… and place a hard cap on mf that you reached when you maxed out your paragon levels.

so history repeats, because anet and blizzard had their games in development at nearly the same time, but offset by just enough to not have the opportunity to learn from the first release’s mistakes…

oh and, diablo 3s solution was pretty terrible… more or less locked players into 1 main character. similar to what ascended gear and wxp does.

Someone mentioned about “social contract”. And this is perfectly stating about the “selfish” behavior. But please remember – this is contract it should be signed for all involved. Contract are not “by default”.
If you search your group : “LF More, no MF gear” – then running with MF is breaking the contract you’ve set
If there is : “LF More, Berserk gear” – then running without Berserk (i.e. Valkyria) is breaking the contract you’ve set
If there is “LF More” – Then this mean only what is said. All people welcomed.

Szamsziel.5627:

Someone mentioned about “social contract”. And this is perfectly stating about the “selfish” behavior. But please remember – this is contract it should be signed for all involved. Contract are not “by default”.
If you search your group : “LF More, no MF gear” – then running with MF is breaking the contract you’ve set
If there is : “LF More, Berserk gear” – then running without Berserk (i.e. Valkyria) is breaking the contract you’ve set
If there is “LF More” – Then this mean only what is said. All people welcomed.

I would believe the social contract is what the majority of the society your in see as normal behavior. I don’t have to put in the post..

“Lf1m must not be wearing all white, must not go afk for an hour, must not agro all the mobs on the map onto the group, must not ignore all downed people when they could be easily saved, must not use Melee weapons when we are trying to pull boss to next Lava pull. etc”

I believe that over 50% of people playing don’t really like MF in dungeons. therefore, it would only be common courtesy to ask. The only time you really need to post extra info is if what you are after is not the norm.

“lf3m must be Zerk Warriors”
“lf1m for full dungeon clear”
“lf2m farm Ascalonian fractal, magic find welcome”

Guild Wars 2 isn’t a trinity game, so really everyone IS out for themselves. You heal yourself, buff yourself, even raise/rally yourself. You get and manage gear and traits to make yourself as efficient at what you want as you can. When a person gears for someone else, or because they are told it is the way that the group wants it, that is selfish behavior. You can easily do dungeons with either MF or non MF gear, and the only difference is a short amount of time.

When you enter a group, you aren’t entering a “contract”, this isn’t a Donald Trump show. You enter a group with one single purpose and that is to complete the dungeon (leaving out players who want to glitch through 99% of the dungeon because “it takes too long..”). You use the gear and traits you have to help the group accomplish that goal and if you use MF you are also trying to accomplish a personal goal. Having personal goals is not being selfish, it is using your time in game to enjoy the game how you want. Unless you are purposely afking every mob, or are entirely oblivious with how to conduct yourself, no one has the right to complain that your dps doesn’t measure up with their elitist’ometer. Gear in this game is only an enhancement of ones skill and direction, it is not a defining factor in figuring out if someone is selfish. Selfishness comes from literally doing everything for yourself, merely entering the dungeon with a group removes this ability. Just helping others kill bosses and mobs and finish the dungeon is a group concentrated effort.

If you want to pair up with like-minded individuals you have the option to do so, but do not expect that your style of play is the majority no matter your playstyle. People in MF gear are no more “purposely” hindering your progress than someone with bad ping. People can claim the stat argument, but stats do not make a good group, the groups skill and teamwork does.

Everyone has different goals, sometimes our goals are inside areas where groups are needed. We take on those challenges with others so that we can further our own story and progress. Simply partying with people is being group minded, unless again, you are just afking. You get drops based on doing enough damage(yourself), you get to work with others to accomplish one goal. This is the one and only purpose of dungeons, whatever else you take from that dungeon is in your own self interests. If you want a speed run, it is in your personal interest to get loot/gold on YOUR time frame. If you want to skip things you are circumventing the natural play of the dungeon and again that is YOUR personal interest. We all have some sense of selfishness, basically everything you do in game could be called selfish. But there is a difference between selfishness and personal interests. Because unlike selfishness, our personal interests can align with others. And no one has the right to belittle you or degrade you because you chose a gear set that helps you further a personal goal for yourself. As for those who want speed runs etc, you can announce it as such. If and when a real LFG tool is introduced I see this problem somewhat going away. Because people will have the chance to find others whose personal interests align.

There is far too much name calling and derogatory statements in this thread at this point to even take it serious anymore. Rather than define the actual importance of teamwork which is simply working together towards a common goal, you have all gone about forcing your own personal beliefs on one another. In doing so you have lost track of the discussion on how we can work WITH people who have this gear, and have resorted to simply labeling anyone with MF gear as “bad”. I see no further point in this thread other than to argue with each other about who personal interests and prerogatives are more important than others. There is no winner there, and if you think there is you are deluded.

Your concept that because there is no ‘trinity’ everybody is for themselves is ridiculous. It’s contradicted not only by just about every design aspect in the game, but by a developer in this thread admitting this is not what they wanted or meant to happen.

I think discussions on a social contract and such are pretty much blather, because nothings going to change unless there is a change or removal of Magic Find that makes it so you do not sacrifice any other stats to get it. However, I don’t think you should counteract blather with even sillier nonsense. Not a team game that’s focused on team PvP, world events, has buffs that buff allies whether you want to or not and if they are in your group or not? Please..come on…

Flissy.4093:

[Flame wall: Initiated!]

Why is it bad in group play?
This is the real issue with Magic Find and a sole reason it should not be in the game…

The person using Magic Find gear contributes the least, but get’s the best reward.

Why does this make sense? A huge design flaw.

You are giving up offensive potential and wasting time. You are not only wasting your time, you are also wasting your groups. Wasting other players’ time is selfish & rude. So ArenaNet promote selfish play.
TLDR; Magic Find is bad – don’t use it.

define offensive potential in your own words please

Zosk.5609:

Your concept that because there is no ‘trinity’ everybody is for themselves is ridiculous. It’s contradicted not only by just about every design aspect in the game, but by a developer in this thread admitting this is not what they wanted or meant to happen.

I think discussions on a social contract and such are pretty much blather, because nothings going to change unless there is a change or removal of Magic Find that makes it so you do not sacrifice any other stats to get it. However, I don’t think you should counteract blather with even sillier nonsense. Not a team game that’s focused on team PvP, world events, has buffs that buff allies whether you want to or not and if they are in your group or not? Please..come on…

Everyone being focused on their own interests, does not mean everyone is out only for themselves. But out of all that text you chose to pull that part out instead of anything positive. I salute your ability to completely ignore points in messages.

Everyone needs to take care of themselves in this game, AND can, and do help others. There is very few things that actually require a group, but team effort is everywhere we look. Even in things that don’t actually require a “party” exactly, we still contribute, but we do so as individuals since nothing is shared. And there is nothing wrong with that. But thank you for proving that people would rather argue silly points than gather overall information when it is presented. Typical forum agenda.

It is an MMO, and you do interact with others, but there are aspects of the game that allow you to define your play solely based off your own actions or choices. I never said there was no team, or no aspects of group work, but good job.

My Dead Characters.9517:

Flissy.4093:

[Flame wall: Initiated!]

Why is it bad in group play?
This is the real issue with Magic Find and a sole reason it should not be in the game…

The person using Magic Find gear contributes the least, but get’s the best reward.

Why does this make sense? A huge design flaw.

You are giving up offensive potential and wasting time. You are not only wasting your time, you are also wasting your groups. Wasting other players’ time is selfish & rude. So ArenaNet promote selfish play.
TLDR; Magic Find is bad – don’t use it.

define offensive potential in your own words please

Statistical capability for outputting damage. For instance, Explorer’s compared to Berserker’s, Explorer’s is identical except that its power is lower (less damage) and it doesn’t give crit damage (less damage). Compared to Berserker’s your offensive potential is worse, and it is not traded off for anything else that could conceivably be of use in a fight (like, say, Soldier’s armor trades a lot of damage potential for survivability, and alive players are more useful than dead ones). A person in Explorer’s would be objectively more capable in combat if they took Berserker’s or Rampager’s (even with no damaging conditions at all, since Rampager’s also has better Power) (I leave out mention of Knight’s because due to aggro mechanics higher Toughness may be a penalty in some cases). A person in Traveler’s gear would be objectively better with Rampager’s (more damage output) or Carrion (more survivability). A person in Wayfarer’s would be objectively better in Soldier’s (more damage). The reason these are all better is because they are the exact same thing, except that they have a combat stat instead of a non-combat stat.

Geotherma.2395:

Zosk.5609:

Your concept that because there is no ‘trinity’ everybody is for themselves is ridiculous. It’s contradicted not only by just about every design aspect in the game, but by a developer in this thread admitting this is not what they wanted or meant to happen.

I think discussions on a social contract and such are pretty much blather, because nothings going to change unless there is a change or removal of Magic Find that makes it so you do not sacrifice any other stats to get it. However, I don’t think you should counteract blather with even sillier nonsense. Not a team game that’s focused on team PvP, world events, has buffs that buff allies whether you want to or not and if they are in your group or not? Please..come on…

Everyone being focused on their own interests, does not mean everyone is out only for themselves. But out of all that text you chose to pull that part out instead of anything positive. I salute your ability to completely ignore points in messages.

Everyone needs to take care of themselves in this game, AND can, and do help others. There is very few things that actually require a group, but team effort is everywhere we look. Even in things that don’t actually require a “party” exactly, we still contribute, but we do so as individuals since nothing is shared. And there is nothing wrong with that. But thank you for proving that people would rather argue silly points than gather overall information when it is presented. Typical forum agenda.

It is an MMO, and you do interact with others, but there are aspects of the game that allow you to define your play solely based off your own actions or choices. I never said there was no team, or no aspects of group work, but good job.

EVERYTHING else is shared. Why can’t you understand that?
When people do more damage their group benefits from shorter fights. Shorter fights means getting it done faster, and means lower risk since dead enemies aren’t dangerous.
When people stay alive their group benefits because downed/dead players are useless and require someone to make themselves otherwise useless for a time to rez them. Survivable characters are also more likely to successfully rez someone else without getting killed themselves.
Healing and boon duration obviously can be directly beneficial to a group if they are shared with allies, otherwise they enhance damage output or survivability of the individual, which is, again, a shared benefit.
A player with MF gets better drops for themselves only. Unlike everything else, this only affects the individual. Except the stat loss which hampers their ability to do other things DOES affect the group.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Geotherma.2395:

Zosk.5609:

Your concept that because there is no ‘trinity’ everybody is for themselves is ridiculous. It’s contradicted not only by just about every design aspect in the game, but by a developer in this thread admitting this is not what they wanted or meant to happen.

I think discussions on a social contract and such are pretty much blather, because nothings going to change unless there is a change or removal of Magic Find that makes it so you do not sacrifice any other stats to get it. However, I don’t think you should counteract blather with even sillier nonsense. Not a team game that’s focused on team PvP, world events, has buffs that buff allies whether you want to or not and if they are in your group or not? Please..come on…

Everyone being focused on their own interests, does not mean everyone is out only for themselves. But out of all that text you chose to pull that part out instead of anything positive. I salute your ability to completely ignore points in messages.

Everyone needs to take care of themselves in this game, AND can, and do help others. There is very few things that actually require a group, but team effort is everywhere we look. Even in things that don’t actually require a “party” exactly, we still contribute, but we do so as individuals since nothing is shared. And there is nothing wrong with that. But thank you for proving that people would rather argue silly points than gather overall information when it is presented. Typical forum agenda.

It is an MMO, and you do interact with others, but there are aspects of the game that allow you to define your play solely based off your own actions or choices. I never said there was no team, or no aspects of group work, but good job.

EVERYTHING else is shared. Why can’t you understand that?
When people do more damage their group benefits from shorter fights. Shorter fights means getting it done faster, and means lower risk since dead enemies aren’t dangerous.
When people stay alive their group benefits because downed/dead players are useless and require someone to make themselves otherwise useless for a time to rez them. Survivable characters are also more likely to successfully rez someone else without getting killed themselves.
Healing and boon duration obviously can be directly beneficial to a group if they are shared with allies, otherwise they enhance damage output or survivability of the individual, which is, again, a shared benefit.
A player with MF gets better drops for themselves only. Unlike everything else, this only affects the individual. Except the stat loss which hampers their ability to do other things DOES affect the group.

And their better loots, even though they could be so incredibly small in difference, that itself is the only reason you hate them? You can’t just get through the dungeon? Is that so hard for you to do without requiring someone to wear what you want? There isn’t a discussion here, you play with people who think like you, others play with people who think like them. The only thing going on here is everyone trying to be right, which is ridiculous. All skills/ effort being equal you have no right to complain about an MF wearer in a generalized statement, if you don’t want them in your speedy group, then don’t invite them. But you are not winning any battle on the forums trying to impose your way of play as the ONLY way to play or that it is somehow better than others. Good luck with winning that.

But elitists will always be in MMOs, they will just get weaseled out of this one sooner or later. But your logic that MF wearers are inherently bad people out for themselves is ridiculous and pointless in listening to more elitist dribble about speed runs and DPSing to win the game. Have fun arguing with others, there’s no longer a discussion here, just a ego tossing match and ridiculous generalizations. gl

Geotherma.2395:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Geotherma.2395:

Zosk.5609:

Your concept that because there is no ‘trinity’ everybody is for themselves is ridiculous. It’s contradicted not only by just about every design aspect in the game, but by a developer in this thread admitting this is not what they wanted or meant to happen.

I think discussions on a social contract and such are pretty much blather, because nothings going to change unless there is a change or removal of Magic Find that makes it so you do not sacrifice any other stats to get it. However, I don’t think you should counteract blather with even sillier nonsense. Not a team game that’s focused on team PvP, world events, has buffs that buff allies whether you want to or not and if they are in your group or not? Please..come on…

Everyone being focused on their own interests, does not mean everyone is out only for themselves. But out of all that text you chose to pull that part out instead of anything positive. I salute your ability to completely ignore points in messages.

Everyone needs to take care of themselves in this game, AND can, and do help others. There is very few things that actually require a group, but team effort is everywhere we look. Even in things that don’t actually require a “party” exactly, we still contribute, but we do so as individuals since nothing is shared. And there is nothing wrong with that. But thank you for proving that people would rather argue silly points than gather overall information when it is presented. Typical forum agenda.

It is an MMO, and you do interact with others, but there are aspects of the game that allow you to define your play solely based off your own actions or choices. I never said there was no team, or no aspects of group work, but good job.

EVERYTHING else is shared. Why can’t you understand that?
When people do more damage their group benefits from shorter fights. Shorter fights means getting it done faster, and means lower risk since dead enemies aren’t dangerous.
When people stay alive their group benefits because downed/dead players are useless and require someone to make themselves otherwise useless for a time to rez them. Survivable characters are also more likely to successfully rez someone else without getting killed themselves.
Healing and boon duration obviously can be directly beneficial to a group if they are shared with allies, otherwise they enhance damage output or survivability of the individual, which is, again, a shared benefit.
A player with MF gets better drops for themselves only. Unlike everything else, this only affects the individual. Except the stat loss which hampers their ability to do other things DOES affect the group.

And their better loots, even though they could be so incredibly small in difference, that itself is the only reason you hate them? You can’t just get through the dungeon? Is that so hard for you to do without requiring someone to wear what you want? There isn’t a discussion here, you play with people who think like you, others play with people who think like them. The only thing going on here is everyone trying to be right, which is ridiculous. All skills/ effort being equal you have no right to complain about an MF wearer in a generalized statement, if you don’t want them in your speedy group, then don’t invite them. But you are not winning any battle on the forums trying to impose your way of play as the ONLY way to play or that it is somehow better than others. Good luck with winning that.

No, I have a problem with the idea of someone intentionally harming their group for more loot, better known as leeching.
And everyone who replaces useful stats with MF is doing exactly that.

And I have every right to complain about a selfish kitten who joins a group and then exploits them by doing less to get more.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

My Dead Characters.9517:

define offensive potential in your own words please

Statistical capability for outputting damage. For instance, Explorer’s compared to Berserker’s, Explorer’s is identical except that its power is lower (less damage) and it doesn’t give crit damage (less damage). Compared to Berserker’s your offensive potential is worse, and it is not traded off for anything else that could conceivably be of use in a fight (like, say, Soldier’s armor trades a lot of damage potential for survivability, and alive players are more useful than dead ones). A person in Explorer’s would be objectively more capable in combat if they took Berserker’s or Rampager’s (even with no damaging conditions at all, since Rampager’s also has better Power) (I leave out mention of Knight’s because due to aggro mechanics higher Toughness may be a penalty in some cases). A person in Traveler’s gear would be objectively better with Rampager’s (more damage output) or Carrion (more survivability). A person in Wayfarer’s would be objectively better in Soldier’s (more damage). The reason these are all better is because they are the exact same thing, except that they have a combat stat instead of a non-combat stat.

When you invite me to your party, you invite ME, not my gear. You accept my contribution to the party, whatever I decide to bring. You accept that me being there is going to help, regardless of my gear.

You have no business judging my “statistical capability”, because it’s not your kittening business. I’m there, I’m helping, how much doesn’t matter.

You may run your groups differently, but that doesn’t make your approach desirable to the entire GW2 playerbase. Again, people like loot, and as long as mobs drop dead sometime this century, it’s all good.

Geotherma.2395:

And their better loots, even though they could be so incredibly small in difference, that itself is the only reason you hate them? You can’t just get through the dungeon?

Yes. If they actually share their spoils then yes their MF is shared with the group, but I doubt any MF user will share their spoils… And no it’s not incredibly small in difference, it depends on dungeon and how much MF the user has, it can lead to some extra lodestones.

It’s funny how the same argument always comes, while even the devs themselves admitted that “using MF at the cost of better stats” is harmful and needs to be “solved”. Now tell us that you don’t agree with that either and want MF to stay the way it is, go on.

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

My Dead Characters.9517:

define offensive potential in your own words please

Statistical capability for outputting damage. For instance, Explorer’s compared to Berserker’s, Explorer’s is identical except that its power is lower (less damage) and it doesn’t give crit damage (less damage). Compared to Berserker’s your offensive potential is worse, and it is not traded off for anything else that could conceivably be of use in a fight (like, say, Soldier’s armor trades a lot of damage potential for survivability, and alive players are more useful than dead ones). A person in Explorer’s would be objectively more capable in combat if they took Berserker’s or Rampager’s (even with no damaging conditions at all, since Rampager’s also has better Power) (I leave out mention of Knight’s because due to aggro mechanics higher Toughness may be a penalty in some cases). A person in Traveler’s gear would be objectively better with Rampager’s (more damage output) or Carrion (more survivability). A person in Wayfarer’s would be objectively better in Soldier’s (more damage). The reason these are all better is because they are the exact same thing, except that they have a combat stat instead of a non-combat stat.

When you invite me to your party, you invite ME, not my gear. You accept my contribution to the party, whatever I decide to bring. You accept that me being there is going to help, regardless of my gear.

You have no business judging my “statistical capability”, because it’s not your kittening business. I’m there, I’m helping, how much doesn’t matter.

You may run your groups differently, but that doesn’t make your approach desirable to the entire GW2 playerbase. Again, people like loot, and as long as mobs drop dead sometime this century, it’s all good.

Yes, people like loot. You know what one person slowing everyone down for their own loot does? It makes everyone else take longer to get their loot. Since peoples’ time is limited, this then means that since it takes longer to get their loot, they get less loot in the limited time they have. In effect, this person is decreasing the loot everyone else gets so that they can personally get more.
Thanks for being so understanding.

AntiGw.9367:

You have no business judging my “statistical capability”, because it’s not your kittening business. I’m there, I’m helping, how much doesn’t matter.

True it’s not my business as to how much you are helping, but taking advantage of that to actually GET MORE rewards than me, that’s aggrevating and needs to stop, even the devs admitted it. Choosing MF over better stats in a group setting needs to stop, period, that’s a fact and it will be solved.

So, a group of us did a little test. We ran the Molten dungeon with and without a full party of MF gear. Bottom line, took use a little less than 3 minutes longer using the same toons and earned us on average about 1g-1.5g gold more for that extra 3 minutes. Do with that what you will.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

When you invite me to your party, you invite ME, not my gear. You accept my contribution to the party, whatever I decide to bring. You accept that me being there is going to help, regardless of my gear.

You have no business judging my “statistical capability”, because it’s not your kittening business. I’m there, I’m helping, how much doesn’t matter.

You may run your groups differently, but that doesn’t make your approach desirable to the entire GW2 playerbase. Again, people like loot, and as long as mobs drop dead sometime this century, it’s all good.

Yes, people like loot. You know what one person slowing everyone down for their own loot does? It makes everyone else take longer to get their loot. Since peoples’ time is limited, this then means that since it takes longer to get their loot, they get less loot in the limited time they have. In effect, this person is decreasing the loot everyone else gets so that they can personally get more.
Thanks for being so understanding.

Stop assuming that everyone values his time the same as you do. Taking longer to get loot has never been an issue in parties I normally play with.

As soon as you realize that, you might want to end your crusade of saving everyone’s precious time.

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

When you invite me to your party, you invite ME, not my gear. You accept my contribution to the party, whatever I decide to bring. You accept that me being there is going to help, regardless of my gear.

You have no business judging my “statistical capability”, because it’s not your kittening business. I’m there, I’m helping, how much doesn’t matter.

You may run your groups differently, but that doesn’t make your approach desirable to the entire GW2 playerbase. Again, people like loot, and as long as mobs drop dead sometime this century, it’s all good.

Yes, people like loot. You know what one person slowing everyone down for their own loot does? It makes everyone else take longer to get their loot. Since peoples’ time is limited, this then means that since it takes longer to get their loot, they get less loot in the limited time they have. In effect, this person is decreasing the loot everyone else gets so that they can personally get more.
Thanks for being so understanding.

Stop assuming that everyone values his time the same as you do. Taking longer to get loot has never been an issue in parties I normally play with.

As soon as you realize that, you might want to end your crusade of saving everyone’s precious time.

That wasn’t even about the time, it was about the loot, which you yourself stated people like.
People have a limit to the amount of time they can play. The amount of loot acquired is based on how many things can be killed or how many dungeons can be completed in that time. When these things take longer, it reduces the number of things that can be killed or dungeons can be completed, which reduces loot.
Which, as you stated, people like.
So, what this means is that the one MF user is costing their allies loot in order to get more for themselves.
We are in agreement that people like loot right?
So, one person costing multiple people loot so they themselves get more loot. One person’s happiness (when people get things they like they become happy, right?) at the cost of four others’.

The bottom line of any of the arguments is, one person making themselves worse negatively affects their groupmates. Normally, most people would avoid doing that as they feel people deserve better, so they will try to do well. Except the mechanic as it stands REWARDS people for intentionally doing worse. This mechanic is in a social game, where grouping together is supposed to encourage cooperative play. But the mechanic rewards people for saying “kitten you” to their teammates and looking out for themselves.

And you are defending this terrible mechanic.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

When you invite me to your party, you invite ME, not my gear. You accept my contribution to the party, whatever I decide to bring. You accept that me being there is going to help, regardless of my gear.

You have no business judging my “statistical capability”, because it’s not your kittening business. I’m there, I’m helping, how much doesn’t matter.

You may run your groups differently, but that doesn’t make your approach desirable to the entire GW2 playerbase. Again, people like loot, and as long as mobs drop dead sometime this century, it’s all good.

Yes, people like loot. You know what one person slowing everyone down for their own loot does? It makes everyone else take longer to get their loot. Since peoples’ time is limited, this then means that since it takes longer to get their loot, they get less loot in the limited time they have. In effect, this person is decreasing the loot everyone else gets so that they can personally get more.
Thanks for being so understanding.

Stop assuming that everyone values his time the same as you do. Taking longer to get loot has never been an issue in parties I normally play with.

As soon as you realize that, you might want to end your crusade of saving everyone’s precious time.

That wasn’t even about the time, it was about the loot, which you yourself stated people like.
People have a limit to the amount of time they can play. The amount of loot acquired is based on how many things can be killed or how many dungeons can be completed in that time. When these things take longer, it reduces the number of things that can be killed or dungeons can be completed, which reduces loot.
Which, as you stated, people like.
So, what this means is that the one MF user is costing their allies loot in order to get more for themselves.
We are in agreement that people like loot right?
So, one person costing multiple people loot so they themselves get more loot. One person’s happiness (when people get things they like they become happy, right?) at the cost of four others’.

The bottom line of any of the arguments is, one person making themselves worse negatively affects their groupmates. Normally, most people would avoid doing that as they feel people deserve better, so they will try to do well. Except the mechanic as it stands REWARDS people for intentionally doing worse. This mechanic is in a social game, where grouping together is supposed to encourage cooperative play. But the mechanic rewards people for saying “kitten you” to their teammates and looking out for themselves.

And you are defending this terrible mechanic.

People can decide for themselves how much loot they want to acquire and in what time frame. You don’t cost them anything they aren’t willing to sacrifice or lose.

The important thing is, it’s their choice, not yours. You have no business deciding how much loot they are “losing” because of MF, it’s not your business to decide what “doing worse” is in their situation, and it’s not your business to decide how fast they should be doing whatever they like to do.

I will reiterate my main point once more. Nobody has the right in this game to label people as selfish and greedy because you believe your play style and choices are better then theirs.

If you state simply “I do not want to group with people that wear magic find gear in a dungeon” and leave it as such then there is no problem. Stacking a “because they are selfish and greedy” qualifier at the end of that statement is nothing more then adding a label to promote your style of game play and putting others below you which adds nothing except to make you look shallow and unacceptable of the choices that others may make.

If you wish to qualify why you will not run with someone wearing magic find then place the onus on yourself by stating “because they slow me down” and do not place a label on others by stating “they are selfish and greedy”.

Understand where I am coming from?

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

When you invite me to your party, you invite ME, not my gear. You accept my contribution to the party, whatever I decide to bring. You accept that me being there is going to help, regardless of my gear.

You have no business judging my “statistical capability”, because it’s not your kittening business. I’m there, I’m helping, how much doesn’t matter.

You may run your groups differently, but that doesn’t make your approach desirable to the entire GW2 playerbase. Again, people like loot, and as long as mobs drop dead sometime this century, it’s all good.

Yes, people like loot. You know what one person slowing everyone down for their own loot does? It makes everyone else take longer to get their loot. Since peoples’ time is limited, this then means that since it takes longer to get their loot, they get less loot in the limited time they have. In effect, this person is decreasing the loot everyone else gets so that they can personally get more.
Thanks for being so understanding.

Stop assuming that everyone values his time the same as you do. Taking longer to get loot has never been an issue in parties I normally play with.

As soon as you realize that, you might want to end your crusade of saving everyone’s precious time.

That wasn’t even about the time, it was about the loot, which you yourself stated people like.
People have a limit to the amount of time they can play. The amount of loot acquired is based on how many things can be killed or how many dungeons can be completed in that time. When these things take longer, it reduces the number of things that can be killed or dungeons can be completed, which reduces loot.
Which, as you stated, people like.
So, what this means is that the one MF user is costing their allies loot in order to get more for themselves.
We are in agreement that people like loot right?
So, one person costing multiple people loot so they themselves get more loot. One person’s happiness (when people get things they like they become happy, right?) at the cost of four others’.

The bottom line of any of the arguments is, one person making themselves worse negatively affects their groupmates. Normally, most people would avoid doing that as they feel people deserve better, so they will try to do well. Except the mechanic as it stands REWARDS people for intentionally doing worse. This mechanic is in a social game, where grouping together is supposed to encourage cooperative play. But the mechanic rewards people for saying “kitten you” to their teammates and looking out for themselves.

And you are defending this terrible mechanic.

People can decide for themselves how much loot they want to acquire and in what time frame. You don’t cost them anything they aren’t willing to sacrifice or lose.

The important thing is, it’s their choice, not yours. You have no business deciding how much loot they are “losing” because of MF, it’s not your business to decide what “doing worse” is in their situation, and it’s not your business to decide how fast they should be doing whatever they like to do.

Except when someone else decides to use worse stats for their own benefit, they are deciding how much loot everyone ELSE gets and in what timeframe as well. They are deciding to make everyone else get less loot for their time, and are ENCOURAGED by the game to do so as it is in their own benefit.

So answer me this: why should there be a mechanic that ENCOURAGES people to screw their party for their own benefit?

This thread is absoluteley, genuinely hilarious. It has gone on for pages and pages and pages when there is precisely one logical deduction to make and one simple solution. I don’t mean to be crass but anyone in this thread failing to make the deduction below is just having problems using good logic.

Deduction – MF is a selfish stat. This is not necessarily an indictment of players using it (so no need to be defensive), this is an indictment of the way it’s designed, and that’s where it needs to be addressed. It’s a design flaw that to get better drops for yourself only you have to sacrifice stats that benefit a group, and this is a problem regardless of how much of a practical impact it might or might not have in a given dungeon run. However, many people like this stat and the gear that provides it, so it shouldn’t be removed.

Solution – MF should be shared in a party by averaging it across team members. This creates symmetry between it and other stats which are more group friendly because the stronger any individual player is the stronger the group is. This is now true for MF as well. If you’re concerned about it being shared perfectly equally, then use a slightly more complex formula that takes a percentage of the average MF as a base then adds on an individual bonus based on percentage of that individual’s MF value.

It. really. is. that. simple. There’s no need to dance in circles around it endlessly.

Theftwind.8976:

I will reiterate my main point once more. Nobody has the right in this game to label people as selfish and greedy because you believe your play style and choices are better then theirs.

If you state simply “I do not want to group with people that wear magic find gear in a dungeon” and leave it as such then there is no problem. Stacking a “because they are selfish and greedy” qualifier at the end of that statement is nothing more then adding a label to promote your style of game play and putting others below you which adds nothing except to make you look shallow and unacceptable of the choices that others may make.

If you wish to qualify why you will not run with someone wearing magic find then place the onus on yourself by stating “because they slow me down” and do not place a label on others by stating “they are selfish and greedy”.

Understand where I am coming from?

You don’t understand the difference. Being slowed down is not the problem. It’s the reason for being slowed down.
They are slowing the group down entirely for selfish reasons.
So the better representation of the qualification is thus: I don’t want to group with MF users because they slow us down on purpose.
And if you take issue with that then I must assume that you have no problem with true leechers, those who do nothing in order to mooch off of the rewards. Because they are slowing you down by doing nothing, and they are doing it on purpose.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Except when someone else decides to use worse stats for their own benefit, they are deciding how much loot everyone ELSE gets and in what timeframe as well. They are deciding to make everyone else get less loot for their time, and are ENCOURAGED by the game to do so as it is in their own benefit.

So answer me this: why should there be a mechanic that ENCOURAGES people to screw their party for their own benefit?

You keep making the same stupid assumption that MF is screwing a party.

It doesn’t screw anything. Get off your high horse.

People clear dungeons just fine with or without mf. There’s no reason to make a big deal out of it. Nobody is supposed to always use stats that always benefit the party.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

You don’t understand the difference. Being slowed down is not the problem. It’s the reason for being slowed down.
They are slowing the group down entirely for selfish reasons.
So the better representation of the qualification is thus: I don’t want to group with MF users because they slow us down on purpose.
And if you take issue with that then I must assume that you have no problem with true leechers, those who do nothing in order to mooch off of the rewards. Because they are slowing you down by doing nothing, and they are doing it on purpose.[/quote]

But how do I know, without the slightest bit of doubt, that they are doing it on purpose to slow me down and therefore deserve to be labelled? There is no way to know that unless you are sitting in that person’s head, especially in an internet game where you cannot see and interact with that person face to face. Just keep the labels out of your arguments. Labels that describe others game choices are a poor way to promote a discussion. I resent for example the term “noob”. “We failed that dungeon run because that noob did not do such and such”. We were all “noobs” at one time just as we all have our own selfish wants and desires.

So with your above example on leechers I would simply tell that person, “sorry your game play style slows me down, I cannot accept you in my group and I wish to get through this dungeon quickly” versus “You cannot come with me on this dungeon run because you are a leecher and slow me down on purpose”.

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Except when someone else decides to use worse stats for their own benefit, they are deciding how much loot everyone ELSE gets and in what timeframe as well. They are deciding to make everyone else get less loot for their time, and are ENCOURAGED by the game to do so as it is in their own benefit.

So answer me this: why should there be a mechanic that ENCOURAGES people to screw their party for their own benefit?

You keep making the same stupid assumption that MF is screwing a party.

It doesn’t screw anything. Get off your high horse.

People clear dungeons just fine with or without mf. There’s no reason to make a big deal out of it. Nobody is supposed to always use stats that always benefit the party.

Except, mathematically, it is screwing the party. If you fail to understand that a number plus another positive number is a greater number then there’s no hope for you at all.
So no one is supposed to use stats that always benefit the party, when every single trait point, every single selectable trait, every single piece of gear (even MF, though it has less) has stats that benefit the party. For some reason I find that hard to believe.

Even if MF doesn’t screw a party over, my question remains. Why should a mechanic exist that encourages people to screw their party for their own benefit?

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Except when someone else decides to use worse stats for their own benefit, they are deciding how much loot everyone ELSE gets and in what timeframe as well. They are deciding to make everyone else get less loot for their time, and are ENCOURAGED by the game to do so as it is in their own benefit.

So answer me this: why should there be a mechanic that ENCOURAGES people to screw their party for their own benefit?

You keep making the same stupid assumption that MF is screwing a party.

It doesn’t screw anything. Get off your high horse.

People clear dungeons just fine with or without mf. There’s no reason to make a big deal out of it. Nobody is supposed to always use stats that always benefit the party.

Except, mathematically, it is screwing the party. If you fail to understand that a number plus another positive number is a greater number then there’s no hope for you at all.
So no one is supposed to use stats that always benefit the party, when every single trait point, every single selectable trait, every single piece of gear (even MF, though it has less) has stats that benefit the party. For some reason I find that hard to believe.

Even if MF doesn’t screw a party over, my question remains. Why should a mechanic exist that encourages people to screw their party for their own benefit?

Mathematically, everyone plays the game differently.

What screws the party for you, doesn’t screw it for a whole bunch of people. It’s up to them to decide what is screwing their party.

Stop pretending that everyone is following your elitist mathematical gameplay.

Totally agree on this point-that’s why I don’t care if you think I am selfish for having a paltry 27% on my gear (basically, the Syzygy with MF Utility Infusion DESIGNED by ANet and Ancient Karka Shell with Ruby Jewel), because my friends-and more importantly, myself-know that I am not selfish in the least-same with another poster several posts above. I would do anything for in-game friends, and have given away Charged and Onyx lodestones to them-shows you how selfish I am, that 27% makes me so self-centered, loot-hungry, and evil right?

I notice that for the second time you have failed to answer the supposedly simple question: If MF gear is not inherently selfish, then how is YOUR MF stat benefiting anyone on your team who isn’t you?

I take it you concede that it is not helping anyone but yourself, and would therefore, buy definition, be a selfish stat to have?

It’s equally selfish to require people to conform into certain specs. If you’re being totally selfless, you’d invite all the noobs , fresh 80s and folks in mish mash rare gear, and help them, instead.

Yes, but whether you choose to invite selfish people into your group or not does not make them any less selfish. I’m not a fan of being overly choosey about group members myself, but the thing is, it IS more selfish to run MF gear than to ostracize those who do, because a person in MF gear is dragging down the other four members in exchange for their own profit, while the person rejecting the MFer is raising the efficiency for the REST of the group, as well as for themselves. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

Many many gear combinations are far superior to Explorer in terms of DPS while also offering more than just damage.

EVERY other combination is superior to Explorers. You can even run Carrion or Rampagers gear on a character with zero condition effects in their build, and get more useful stats than a set of Explorer armor. You can run Rare versions of most gear types and get better stats than an exotic set of Explorers. There is no excuse for Explorers.

If I stopped wearing MF then I would not be able to help my server the way I do. Yes I am very selfish.

So you’re robbing from your PvE teammates to feed your WvW teammates. If I was playing WvW with you I might like that, but if I were PvEing with you I would not.

Your opinion of why it is “selfish” to employ this gear has no bearing on the reality that people need not be necessarily selfish in order to use an Exotic full MF set.

Yes they do.

In short: you do not need to justify your gear choices and dislike of the MF system by calling those who would employ it selfish.

No, we don’t, but they are still selfish. That’s a fact whether we point it out or not.

It is a problem with the game’s design (forced to choose better stats vs possible better drops), not people’s morals-you may as well accuse ANet for “promoting selfishness” as you would see it, rather than the players.

It is both. It’s a problem with the game’s design, but also with the way people react to that design. TP flipping is a similar issue. A player cannot absolve themselves of any moral responsibility “just because that’s how the game is designed.” If the game were designed in such a way that Thieves could use “pickpocket” on other players to steal loot from them without repercussions, then that would be bad design, but it doesn’t mean that players who chose to use that mechanic on their fellow players could claim “I’m not a bad guy, the game is just poorly designed.” Whether the game was poorly designed or not, it’s their own choices that make them bad guys.

But please remember – this is contract it should be signed for all involved. Contract are not “by default”.

Social contracts are, by nature, “by default.” They are an agreement as to what is considered socially responsible, nobody has to individually agree to them in advance, you are automatically held to that standard within the society whether you agree to it or not, and failure to comply tends to lead to ostracization.

Guild Wars 2 isn’t a trinity game, so really everyone IS out for themselves. You heal yourself, buff yourself, even raise/rally yourself. You get and manage gear and traits to make yourself as efficient at what you want as you can. When a person gears for someone else, or because they are told it is the way that the group wants it, that is selfish behavior. You can easily do dungeons with either MF or non MF gear, and the only difference is a short amount of time.

Just because there’s no trinty doesn’t mean you have no responsibilities to your group. You are responsible for bringing whatever you possibly can to the group. If that means you can heal and buff, then do that well. If it means you can draw agro off things, the do that. If it means you can kill faster, then do that, but choosing to get more loot is not a socially responsible “role” to play in a group.

You have no business judging my “statistical capability”, because it’s not your kittening business. I’m there, I’m helping, how much doesn’t matter.

Of course it matters. As I said earlier. Content is based on five players, not four, so each player is intended to bring 1/5th of the battle strength to the fight, your contributions are not “bonus,” they are either meeting that standard, or falling short. If a player is using full MF gear, then he is forcing each of the other players to bring even more to the team than their fair share, in return for zero benefit to them.

Nobody has the right in this game to label people as selfish and greedy because you believe your play style and choices are better then theirs.

Of course not, but it’s perfectly fair to label people as selfish or greedy if they make selfish or greedy choices, right?

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Except when someone else decides to use worse stats for their own benefit, they are deciding how much loot everyone ELSE gets and in what timeframe as well. They are deciding to make everyone else get less loot for their time, and are ENCOURAGED by the game to do so as it is in their own benefit.

So answer me this: why should there be a mechanic that ENCOURAGES people to screw their party for their own benefit?

You keep making the same stupid assumption that MF is screwing a party.

It doesn’t screw anything. Get off your high horse.

People clear dungeons just fine with or without mf. There’s no reason to make a big deal out of it. Nobody is supposed to always use stats that always benefit the party.

Except, mathematically, it is screwing the party. If you fail to understand that a number plus another positive number is a greater number then there’s no hope for you at all.
So no one is supposed to use stats that always benefit the party, when every single trait point, every single selectable trait, every single piece of gear (even MF, though it has less) has stats that benefit the party. For some reason I find that hard to believe.

Even if MF doesn’t screw a party over, my question remains. Why should a mechanic exist that encourages people to screw their party for their own benefit?

Mathematically, everyone plays the game differently.

What screws the party for you, doesn’t screw it for a whole bunch of people. It’s up to them to decide what is screwing their party.

Stop pretending that everyone is following your elitist mathematical gameplay.

Stop assuming that the majority does not care whether someone uses magic find or not.

You are in an even shakier position than the guy you’re quoting, because all you advocate is maintaining the status quo, without trying to start a real discussion about the current state of MF.

The developers themselves have now stated that they are not happy with MF.

Will you continue to protest in futility, or will you realistically consider modifications?

AntiGw.9367:

Mathematically, everyone plays the game differently.

What screws the party for you, doesn’t screw it for a whole bunch of people. It’s up to them to decide what is screwing their party.

Stop pretending that everyone is following your elitist mathematical gameplay.

So are you for a second saying that you won’t do more to help the party in full exotics than you will in level 68 blues (that give the same amount of stat bonus as Explorers). It has a detremental effect. Whether or not your helping your team, your helping your team less with one set up than the other.

level 80 exotics > level 68 blues.

Now whether or not your team cares about it is neither here or there. YOU ARE doing less.

When you take Explorer gear you are doing the same you are mathmatically doing less to help the team than if you were in other Exotics. THIS IS A FACT. It’s also a fact that only you are getting the bonus as things stand from the Magic Find.

Whether you count this as Selfish or not is neither here or there. Instead of helping your team you are making a conscious decision to help only yourself.

Theftwind.8976:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

You don’t understand the difference. Being slowed down is not the problem. It’s the reason for being slowed down.
They are slowing the group down entirely for selfish reasons.
So the better representation of the qualification is thus: I don’t want to group with MF users because they slow us down on purpose.
And if you take issue with that then I must assume that you have no problem with true leechers, those who do nothing in order to mooch off of the rewards. Because they are slowing you down by doing nothing, and they are doing it on purpose.

But how do I know, without the slightest bit of doubt, that they are doing it on purpose to slow me down and therefore deserve to be labelled? There is no way to know that unless you are sitting in that person’s head, especially in an internet game where you cannot see and interact with that person face to face. Just keep the labels out of your arguments. Labels that describe others game choices are a poor way to promote a discussion. I resent for example the term “noob”. “We failed that dungeon run because that noob did not do such and such”. We were all “noobs” at one time just as we all have our own selfish wants and desires.

So with your above example on leechers I would simply tell that person, “sorry your game play style slows me down, I cannot accept you in my group and I wish to get through this dungeon quickly” versus “You cannot come with me on this dungeon run because you are a leecher and slow me down on purpose”.

They aren’t doing it to slow you down (well, griefers do exist, but that’s a different matter). They are doing it for their own benefit, without regard to, or in spite of, the consequences it has on the rest of the party. If they are using MF gear in a group, then obviously they don’t care that it hurts everyone else in the party. They’re doing it because it helps themselves and they don’t care that it slows you down, or don’t care enough to actually change it.
Which is selfishness.

Thus, the reason I don’t want them in the group is BECAUSE they are being selfish.

Also, on an unrelated matter, not everyone was a “noob”. Everyone was a “newb”.
Newbs are new players, inexperienced with the content, and obviously everyone was at some time. Noobs are players who play at similar levels to newbs except that they don’t have the excuse of being new. They are poor not because of inexperience but because they won’t get better.

Ohoni.6057:

You have no business judging my “statistical capability”, because it’s not your kittening business. I’m there, I’m helping, how much doesn’t matter.

Of course it matters. As I said earlier. Content is based on five players, not four, so each player is intended to bring 1/5th of the battle strength to the fight, your contributions are not “bonus,” they are either meeting that standard, or falling short. If a player is using full MF gear, then he is forcing each of the other players to bring even more to the team than their fair share, in return for zero benefit to them.

Content is not based on five players with perfect exotic/ascended gear. It’s based on imperfectly geared players with bad ping and slow reflexes.

Anything you do in a party is a benefit to the party. Just because someone doesn’t want to use the gear YOU are trying to force down their throat doesn’t mean they aren’t meeting whatever stupid standard that only exists in an elitist’s head.

AntiGw.9367:

Ohoni.6057:

You have no business judging my “statistical capability”, because it’s not your kittening business. I’m there, I’m helping, how much doesn’t matter.

Of course it matters. As I said earlier. Content is based on five players, not four, so each player is intended to bring 1/5th of the battle strength to the fight, your contributions are not “bonus,” they are either meeting that standard, or falling short. If a player is using full MF gear, then he is forcing each of the other players to bring even more to the team than their fair share, in return for zero benefit to them.

Content is not based on five players with perfect exotic/ascended gear. It’s based on imperfectly geared players with bad ping and slow reflexes.

Anything you do in a party is a benefit to the party. Just because someone doesn’t want to use the gear YOU are trying to force down their throat doesn’t mean they aren’t meeting whatever stupid standard that only exists in an elitist’s head.

No one’s saying MF users aren’t beneficial. They’re saying they’re less so, of their own choosing, for selfish reasons.

And please answer my question: Why should a mechanic that encourages people to screw their teammates over be in a game?

Paradoxine.8192:

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Except when someone else decides to use worse stats for their own benefit, they are deciding how much loot everyone ELSE gets and in what timeframe as well. They are deciding to make everyone else get less loot for their time, and are ENCOURAGED by the game to do so as it is in their own benefit.

So answer me this: why should there be a mechanic that ENCOURAGES people to screw their party for their own benefit?

You keep making the same stupid assumption that MF is screwing a party.

It doesn’t screw anything. Get off your high horse.

People clear dungeons just fine with or without mf. There’s no reason to make a big deal out of it. Nobody is supposed to always use stats that always benefit the party.

Except, mathematically, it is screwing the party. If you fail to understand that a number plus another positive number is a greater number then there’s no hope for you at all.
So no one is supposed to use stats that always benefit the party, when every single trait point, every single selectable trait, every single piece of gear (even MF, though it has less) has stats that benefit the party. For some reason I find that hard to believe.

Even if MF doesn’t screw a party over, my question remains. Why should a mechanic exist that encourages people to screw their party for their own benefit?

Mathematically, everyone plays the game differently.

What screws the party for you, doesn’t screw it for a whole bunch of people. It’s up to them to decide what is screwing their party.

Stop pretending that everyone is following your elitist mathematical gameplay.

Stop assuming that the majority does not care whether someone uses magic find or not.

You are in an even shakier position than the guy you’re quoting, because all you advocate is maintaining the status quo, without trying to start a real discussion about the current state of MF.

The developers themselves have now stated that they are not happy with MF.

Will you continue to protest in futility, or will you realistically consider modifications?

Who died and made YOU the spokesman for the majority of players?

I never assumed that the majority does not care about something. I’m saying that there is a large amount of people that don’t play the game like elitist pricks.

I also don’t advocate maintaining any status quo. I suggest that you should learn how to read.

AntiGw.9367:

Ohoni.6057:

You have no business judging my “statistical capability”, because it’s not your kittening business. I’m there, I’m helping, how much doesn’t matter.

Of course it matters. As I said earlier. Content is based on five players, not four, so each player is intended to bring 1/5th of the battle strength to the fight, your contributions are not “bonus,” they are either meeting that standard, or falling short. If a player is using full MF gear, then he is forcing each of the other players to bring even more to the team than their fair share, in return for zero benefit to them.

Content is not based on five players with perfect exotic/ascended gear. It’s based on imperfectly geared players with bad ping and slow reflexes.

Anything you do in a party is a benefit to the party. Just because someone doesn’t want to use the gear YOU are trying to force down their throat doesn’t mean they aren’t meeting whatever stupid standard that only exists in an elitist’s head.

So many of their arguments sound as if MF wearers have 1 stats (MF) and that’s it. As if none of the other stats exists, and therefore those players are hurting the group. If anyone reading just skimmed through and knew nothing about the game it would look as though there is a gear set that has 1 stat that is terrible in group play. A full MF+MF+MF gear set. Surprised thread hasn’t been locked, maybe the mods are busy laughing.

Geotherma.2395:

AntiGw.9367:

Ohoni.6057:

You have no business judging my “statistical capability”, because it’s not your kittening business. I’m there, I’m helping, how much doesn’t matter.

Of course it matters. As I said earlier. Content is based on five players, not four, so each player is intended to bring 1/5th of the battle strength to the fight, your contributions are not “bonus,” they are either meeting that standard, or falling short. If a player is using full MF gear, then he is forcing each of the other players to bring even more to the team than their fair share, in return for zero benefit to them.

Content is not based on five players with perfect exotic/ascended gear. It’s based on imperfectly geared players with bad ping and slow reflexes.

Anything you do in a party is a benefit to the party. Just because someone doesn’t want to use the gear YOU are trying to force down their throat doesn’t mean they aren’t meeting whatever stupid standard that only exists in an elitist’s head.

So many of their arguments sound as if MF wearers have 1 stats (MF) and that’s it. As if none of the other stats exists, and therefore those players are hurting the group. If anyone reading just skimmed through and knew nothing about the game it would look as though there is a gear set that has 1 stat that is terrible in group play. A full MF+MF+MF gear set. Surprised thread hasn’t been locked, maybe the mods are busy laughing.

MF is the major stat. a Exotic Explorer has the same amounts in stats as a level 68 blue piece of armor. you are losing around 3/7 of your total stats.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

Ohoni.6057:

You have no business judging my “statistical capability”, because it’s not your kittening business. I’m there, I’m helping, how much doesn’t matter.

Of course it matters. As I said earlier. Content is based on five players, not four, so each player is intended to bring 1/5th of the battle strength to the fight, your contributions are not “bonus,” they are either meeting that standard, or falling short. If a player is using full MF gear, then he is forcing each of the other players to bring even more to the team than their fair share, in return for zero benefit to them.

Content is not based on five players with perfect exotic/ascended gear. It’s based on imperfectly geared players with bad ping and slow reflexes.

Anything you do in a party is a benefit to the party. Just because someone doesn’t want to use the gear YOU are trying to force down their throat doesn’t mean they aren’t meeting whatever stupid standard that only exists in an elitist’s head.

No one’s saying MF users aren’t beneficial. They’re saying they’re less so, of their own choosing, for selfish reasons.

And please answer my question: Why should a mechanic that encourages people to screw their teammates over be in a game?

You and a few other people here have said that MF users aren’t beneficial. That includes calling them leechers and cowards.

Your question is fallacious, because it’s based on an incorrect assumption (mf → screwes people).

AntiGw.9367:

Paradoxine.8192:

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Except when someone else decides to use worse stats for their own benefit, they are deciding how much loot everyone ELSE gets and in what timeframe as well. They are deciding to make everyone else get less loot for their time, and are ENCOURAGED by the game to do so as it is in their own benefit.

So answer me this: why should there be a mechanic that ENCOURAGES people to screw their party for their own benefit?

You keep making the same stupid assumption that MF is screwing a party.

It doesn’t screw anything. Get off your high horse.

People clear dungeons just fine with or without mf. There’s no reason to make a big deal out of it. Nobody is supposed to always use stats that always benefit the party.

Except, mathematically, it is screwing the party. If you fail to understand that a number plus another positive number is a greater number then there’s no hope for you at all.
So no one is supposed to use stats that always benefit the party, when every single trait point, every single selectable trait, every single piece of gear (even MF, though it has less) has stats that benefit the party. For some reason I find that hard to believe.

Even if MF doesn’t screw a party over, my question remains. Why should a mechanic exist that encourages people to screw their party for their own benefit?

Mathematically, everyone plays the game differently.

What screws the party for you, doesn’t screw it for a whole bunch of people. It’s up to them to decide what is screwing their party.

Stop pretending that everyone is following your elitist mathematical gameplay.

Stop assuming that the majority does not care whether someone uses magic find or not.

You are in an even shakier position than the guy you’re quoting, because all you advocate is maintaining the status quo, without trying to start a real discussion about the current state of MF.

The developers themselves have now stated that they are not happy with MF.

Will you continue to protest in futility, or will you realistically consider modifications?

Who died and made YOU the spokesman for the majority of players?

I never assumed that the majority does not care about something. I’m saying that there is a large amount of people that don’t play the game like elitist pricks.

I also don’t advocate maintaining any status quo. I suggest that you should learn how to read.

Stop reading what you want to hear and trying to further your sad narrative.

I specifically said stop assuming that the majority does not care. Yes, you haven’t said it outright, but you imply it with every breath, which is more than enough.

You completely dismiss the idea that there is a problem with MF in almost every post. Is this not true, with your attitude of everyone can play how they want and there is no arguing that point? Seems like a complete dismissal of the issues to me.

What we need to do is have a discussion, one you seem to be incapable of participating in civilly at any rate.

Paradoxine.8192:

AntiGw.9367:

Who died and made YOU the spokesman for the majority of players?

I never assumed that the majority does not care about something. I’m saying that there is a large amount of people that don’t play the game like elitist pricks.

I also don’t advocate maintaining any status quo. I suggest that you should learn how to read.

Stop reading what you want to hear and trying to further your sad narrative.

I specifically said stop assuming that the majority does not care. Yes, you haven’t said it outright, but you imply it with every breath, which is more than enough.

You completely dismiss the idea that there is a problem with MF in almost every post. Is this not true, with your attitude of everyone can play how they want and there is no arguing that point? Seems like a complete dismissal of the issues to me.

What we need to do is have a discussion, one you seem to be incapable of participating in civilly at any rate.

I’m not dismissing any issues regarding MF. I’m arguing against elitist behaviour of certain users in this thread. Specifically, I’m arguing against discriminating against MF users and claiming that they somehow waste people’s time.

You really should learn how to read…

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

Ohoni.6057:

You have no business judging my “statistical capability”, because it’s not your kittening business. I’m there, I’m helping, how much doesn’t matter.

Of course it matters. As I said earlier. Content is based on five players, not four, so each player is intended to bring 1/5th of the battle strength to the fight, your contributions are not “bonus,” they are either meeting that standard, or falling short. If a player is using full MF gear, then he is forcing each of the other players to bring even more to the team than their fair share, in return for zero benefit to them.

Content is not based on five players with perfect exotic/ascended gear. It’s based on imperfectly geared players with bad ping and slow reflexes.

Anything you do in a party is a benefit to the party. Just because someone doesn’t want to use the gear YOU are trying to force down their throat doesn’t mean they aren’t meeting whatever stupid standard that only exists in an elitist’s head.

No one’s saying MF users aren’t beneficial. They’re saying they’re less so, of their own choosing, for selfish reasons.

And please answer my question: Why should a mechanic that encourages people to screw their teammates over be in a game?

You and a few other people here have said that MF users aren’t beneficial. That includes calling them leechers and cowards.

Your question is fallacious, because it’s based on an incorrect assumption (mf -> screwes people).

No, I say that the MF gear is not beneficial. They would be better in something else, and unlike every other stat combination there’s no arguing that they are less effective, since it’s not replacing useful stats with other useful stats.

And as has been proven many times over in the thread, MF is a hindrance to a party, thus it screws the party.
So I will ask again, in slightly less loaded terms: Why should there be a mechanic that encourages people to contribute less to get more?

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

You and a few other people here have said that MF users aren’t beneficial. That includes calling them leechers and cowards.

Your question is fallacious, because it’s based on an incorrect assumption (mf -> screwes people).

No, I say that the MF gear is not beneficial. They would be better in something else, and unlike every other stat combination there’s no arguing that they are less effective, since it’s not replacing useful stats with other useful stats.

And as has been proven many times over in the thread, MF is a hindrance to a party, thus it screws the party.
So I will ask again, in slightly less loaded terms: Why should there be a mechanic that encourages people to contribute less to get more?

Your definition of MF is wrong, ruining that question once again.

It’s not a mechanic that encourages people to contribute less to get more. It’s a mechanic that allows you to gain better loot as soon as you are happy with your other stats.

Those people wouldn’t be “better” in something else, because for them, the stats they already have are more than enough. It’s their decision, and it doesn’t make them selfish, inefficient, cowards, or anything else elitists like to call them.

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

You and a few other people here have said that MF users aren’t beneficial. That includes calling them leechers and cowards.

Your question is fallacious, because it’s based on an incorrect assumption (mf -> screwes people).

No, I say that the MF gear is not beneficial. They would be better in something else, and unlike every other stat combination there’s no arguing that they are less effective, since it’s not replacing useful stats with other useful stats.

And as has been proven many times over in the thread, MF is a hindrance to a party, thus it screws the party.
So I will ask again, in slightly less loaded terms: Why should there be a mechanic that encourages people to contribute less to get more?

Your definition of MF is wrong, ruining that question once again.

It’s not a mechanic that encourages people to contribute less to get more. It’s a mechanic that allows you to gain better loot as soon as you are happy with your other stats.

Those people wouldn’t be “better” in something else, because for them, the stats they already have are more than enough. It’s their decision, and it doesn’t make them selfish, inefficient, cowards, or anything else elitists like to call them.

Yes, actually, they ARE better in something else. Adding 2 positive numbers makes a number larger than either. This is known as math.

MF is, no matter how you look at it, the inferior option in combat. The reason being, it replaces a stat that DOES do something in combat with something that does literally nothing in combat. And, no matter how you look at it, it offers nothing to anyone in the group but the user, while every other stat helps the group.

And my question isn’t even specific to MF. Why should there be a mechanic in ANY game that encourages people to put themselves before their party?
Because, like it or not, that’s what you’re defending.

This will not continue unless you answer the question, as I am done going in circles with someone who refuses to acknowledge that their choice affects other people, and does so in a negative way.

Why are you still arguing over what MF is and what isn’t? The devs themselves pointed out that having MF in place of OTHER BENEFICIAL stats is wrong and will be changed… why are people still defending MF? What are you going to do when it’s finally out of the game or changed in a way that it doesn’t affect groups the least bit?

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

You and a few other people here have said that MF users aren’t beneficial. That includes calling them leechers and cowards.

Your question is fallacious, because it’s based on an incorrect assumption (mf -> screwes people).

No, I say that the MF gear is not beneficial. They would be better in something else, and unlike every other stat combination there’s no arguing that they are less effective, since it’s not replacing useful stats with other useful stats.

And as has been proven many times over in the thread, MF is a hindrance to a party, thus it screws the party.
So I will ask again, in slightly less loaded terms: Why should there be a mechanic that encourages people to contribute less to get more?

Your definition of MF is wrong, ruining that question once again.

It’s not a mechanic that encourages people to contribute less to get more. It’s a mechanic that allows you to gain better loot as soon as you are happy with your other stats.

Those people wouldn’t be “better” in something else, because for them, the stats they already have are more than enough. It’s their decision, and it doesn’t make them selfish, inefficient, cowards, or anything else elitists like to call them.

Sorry man, you’re wrong. Having MF on your gear requires giving up combat stats. You are objectively worse in combat the more MF gear you have on, which means you are contributing less. It doesn’t matter if you’re so amazing at the game you can solo dungeons in MF gear, you’d still be objectively worse than if you were wearing non-MF gear. This is why MF is selfish. 100% of the time if you are wearing it you are willingly dragging down your group to benefit only yourself with better loot.

You’re taking this personally and getting defensive because people are calling you out on selfishness for gearing MF. That’s not the point and never has been. The point is the stat itself and what can be done to make it work in a less selfish way.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

Your definition of MF is wrong, ruining that question once again.

It’s not a mechanic that encourages people to contribute less to get more. It’s a mechanic that allows you to gain better loot as soon as you are happy with your other stats.

Those people wouldn’t be “better” in something else, because for them, the stats they already have are more than enough. It’s their decision, and it doesn’t make them selfish, inefficient, cowards, or anything else elitists like to call them.

Yes, actually, they ARE better in something else. Adding 2 positive numbers makes a number larger than either. This is known as math.

MF is, no matter how you look at it, the inferior option in combat. The reason being, it replaces a stat that DOES do something in combat with something that does literally nothing in combat. And, no matter how you look at it, it offers nothing to anyone in the group but the user, while every other stat helps the group.

And my question isn’t even specific to MF. Why should there be a mechanic in ANY game that encourages people to put themselves before their party?
Because, like it or not, that’s what you’re defending.

This will not continue unless you answer the question, as I am done going in circles with someone who refuses to acknowledge that their choice affects other people, and does so in a negative way.

It’s not an inferior option in anything, because it replaces optional stats. It doesn’t replace mandatory stats that you need to survive or do plenty of damage.

Your entire argument is based on the wrong assumption that everyone MUST use the optional stats at all times in every party.

If anyone replaced mandatory stats with MF, you could say that it encourages people to put themselves before their party. But the stats it replaces are optional, like most things in this game.

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

Your definition of MF is wrong, ruining that question once again.

It’s not a mechanic that encourages people to contribute less to get more. It’s a mechanic that allows you to gain better loot as soon as you are happy with your other stats.

Those people wouldn’t be “better” in something else, because for them, the stats they already have are more than enough. It’s their decision, and it doesn’t make them selfish, inefficient, cowards, or anything else elitists like to call them.

Yes, actually, they ARE better in something else. Adding 2 positive numbers makes a number larger than either. This is known as math.

MF is, no matter how you look at it, the inferior option in combat. The reason being, it replaces a stat that DOES do something in combat with something that does literally nothing in combat. And, no matter how you look at it, it offers nothing to anyone in the group but the user, while every other stat helps the group.

And my question isn’t even specific to MF. Why should there be a mechanic in ANY game that encourages people to put themselves before their party?
Because, like it or not, that’s what you’re defending.

This will not continue unless you answer the question, as I am done going in circles with someone who refuses to acknowledge that their choice affects other people, and does so in a negative way.

It’s not an inferior option in anything, because it replaces optional stats. It doesn’t replace mandatory stats that you need to survive or do plenty of damage.

Your entire argument is based on the wrong assumption that everyone MUST use the optional stats at all times in every party.

If anyone replaced mandatory stats with MF, you could say that it encourages people to put themselves before their party. But the stats it replaces are optional, like most things in this game.

>Refuses to acknowledge being factually incorrect.
>Refuses to answer question.

Why stats anyways? Make the whole stuff traits and clothing be just about the looks. Done – amour tiers are changed from rare/exotic etc to dull/sparkly/with or without animations. Make town clothing available for combat so I can finally say “I’m just the cook” before I slaughter the risen who infested that poor seal.