Guild Wars 2

Magic find tends to work for me once and a great while and then the rest of the time its like its not even there.

maddoctor.2738:

AntiGw.9367:

You have no business judging my “statistical capability”, because it’s not your kittening business. I’m there, I’m helping, how much doesn’t matter.

True it’s not my business as to how much you are helping, but taking advantage of that to actually GET MORE rewards than me, that’s aggrevating and needs to stop, even the devs admitted it. Choosing MF over better stats in a group setting needs to stop, period, that’s a fact and it will be solved.

The devs didn’t admit to “selfishness”, though-they just think, as I do as well, that it’s flawed that a combat stat is substituted with an adventuring stat-that has nothing to do with player’s motives. The problem is not so much that it’s “selfish” but that it does cause segregation in the community, as seen on this thread (I have no idea on how to fix the problem, because there are possible cons to most solutions, or so it seems, though I agree it should be changed.)

Also, note how we are different (not better, or worse)-to me, people that use MF gear and get better drops than me don’t aggravate me at all. Their increase in drops doesn’t mean they are taking away from your own drops, or “treasure stealing”, since that doesn’t exist in this game. They just have better loot tables, and may still get horrible drops anyway (and on many Dungeons, there aren’t that many mobs to kill anyway.) As far as I am concerned, whenever someone gets good drops, I feel happy for them, and congratulate them-I never even know whether they are using MF gear or not because I do not even care to ask. Sigil of luck may be a hint, but even that is not a given. In the end, I just don’t care about them getting better drops than I do, or whether their stats are “contributing less” to the group than my own.

Am I “stupid” for not caring when people are “leeching” on my group? Why is it I do not care while others do? Note that I am not saying I am “superior”, but it begs the question, why some people are more bothered than others about this stuff-and no, I do not use full MF gear on Dungeons myself.

Star Ace.5207:

The devs didn’t admit to “selfishness”, though-they just think, as I do as well, that it’s flawed that a combat stat is substituted with an adventuring stat-that has nothing to do with player’s motives. The problem is not so much that it’s “selfish” but that it does cause segregation in the community, as seen on this thread (I have no idea on how to fix the problem, because there are possible cons to most solutions, or so it seems, though I agree it should be changed.)

Also, note how we are different (not better, or worse)-to me, people that use MF gear and get better drops than me don’t aggravate me at all. Their increase in drops doesn’t mean they are taking away from your own drops, or “treasure stealing”, since that doesn’t exist in this game. They just have better loot tables, and may still get horrible drops anyway (and on many Dungeons, there aren’t that many mobs to kill anyway.) As far as I am concerned, whenever someone gets good drops, I feel happy for them, and congratulate them-I never even know whether they are using MF gear or not because I do not even care to ask. Sigil of luck may be a hint, but even that is not a given. In the end, I just don’t care about them getting better drops than I do, or whether their stats are “contributing less” to the group than my own.

Am I “stupid” for not caring when people are “leeching” on my group? Why is it I do not care while others do? Note that I am not saying I am “superior”, but it begs the question, why some people are more bothered than others about this stuff-and no, I do not use full MF gear on Dungeons myself.

May I postulate to you though, that all of the historical loot nerfs and new drop mechanisms (i.e. Daily Boss Monster Chests) are a direct result of ANet putting so much effort in balancing those that stack MF against those that don’t. Not only that, they are losing that battle, because all possible routes have been directed toward isolating rewards from mechanics affected by MF. So at best, MF will only serve as a tool to increase the amount of trash drops you receive (i.e. Greens or Lower) which in the end only affects the amount of gold you make. Is that really the function you want MF to serve, shouldn’t that be Gold Find instead (that +GF is only seen in utility infusions, food, and banners should also say something to you as well)?

Furthermore, getting rid of MF enables ANet to start lightening up on their loot restrictions, maybe even come back to where we started at launch. Argue what you want, but balancing reward schemas is infinitely easier when you take the extreme amounts of MF you can stack out of the equation and it becomes an exercise of balancing combat stat distribution, which ANet already has to do in the first place (for both PvE and PvP).

You can argue kill rates versus chosen stat stacking all you want, but the math doesn’t support that argument the minute you enter group scenarios. In fact, that’s where MF pulls ahead by a huge margin further giving the perception that someone is “leeching” off of the rest of the group. Sure you could be doing just fine, pulling your own weight, but postulating that you could be doing better in more optimized gear.

I’ll further add to the argument that the statistic priorities on MF gear places MF as a primary stat. That’s right, every (with the sole exception of snowflake) uses MF as a primary stat and the other two as a secondary, even prismatic considers it a primary stat. You’d have a much better argument if that were reversed meaning if ANet made MF gear a secondary stat and one of the other two a second secondary.

Remove magic find while in dungeon. Simple simple fix.

Like that players wont wear a full set in dungeon because they wont gain anything from it. Outside they can wear it where it doesnt matter and they can wear it in pvp if they feel like.

For me someone who wear magic find instead of dungeon gears which offer more survivability is not ok. Im sure if people got the word around and now everybody would run magic find instead, they would see the difference and stop using it. Of course if you are a really great player, know all the fights and dodge most of the stuff, being in magic find wont make that much of a difference because you are losing mostly toughness and vitality out of it.

But the thing is, just like any other set of armor, there is good and bad players. But a bad players in a regular set is less a dead weight then a bad player in a magic find set because he/she will have more vit/tough so if he make a mistake he is less inclined to go down faster then the one missing over 500+ of one of those stats.

I get the “You dont owe me anything so i wear what i want” but at the same time, i dont owe you anything either. I wanna do this dungeon to get the set of armor i like but i am forced to take 3-4 other players to make it through. I geared myself accordingly to support my team and make the experience the smoothest possible so that people dont have to rez me often and that i try to keep other alive as long as possible so dungeons go fast.

So if you get downed often because you lack toughness and vitality to get more loot of the dungeon, it is unfair for me and you are making me lose my time because of this. You get more loot then me while being less useful, i think this is the wrong way to do things. Its not that much the players fault since Arena net put the gear there for players to use and the idea of getting more gear is quite appealing.

So where do we draw the line?

I dont want you in my team because i think you will slow me down by having more chance of getting knock down / die. Why do you make me waste time so you can get more loot then me? Its unfair, ill switch to magic find too and well have some wipes together! will be fun.

Im really curious how a full team of medium players that barely know the dungeon would perform in all magic find gear with magic find consumables.

You still assume that everyone want to complete dungeon as fast as possible. Be aware that there is also optional content. And there are people who really like to clear maw fractal, do optional fights and just have fun.
Removing mf from dungeon? The same I can offer – remove critical from WvW, and everything except exotics Berserker sets. Happy?
I do not care if anyone partying with me using mf set or healing on Thief. I do not care if all builds are optimal. I do not like skipping 90% content of dungeon to have “fasst run”. Please let me play my way.
If I want something special from people coming to my party – I’ll simply ask. And (I know I’m naive) I believe them. That’s all.
Seek your group expressing yourself – LFG CoE, fast run, no MF, only warriors. I can bet that you will get what you are asking for in 95% cases. People with full MF sets probably ignore your LFG. That’s so simple.
I’m asking – LFG Coe – I do not care if someone is on 79 lvl. So what? 1% less of damage? Healing? I play this game for fun – not to have optimized runs. If something take to long I can afford – I just inform my party – sorry guys, got to go, have fun. Is that so difficult?

Magic Find is crap. I don’t care if someone else chooses to run it, but if we’re carrying someone using it through a dungeon, I will notice. Combat stats or nothing for me. Dungeons may not take 100%, but I will give it!

Szamsziel.5627:

You still assume that everyone want to complete dungeon as fast as possible. Be aware that there is also optional content. And there are people who really like to clear maw fractal, do optional fights and just have fun.
Removing mf from dungeon? The same I can offer – remove critical from WvW, and everything except exotics Berserker sets. Happy?
I do not care if anyone partying with me using mf set or healing on Thief. I do not care if all builds are optimal. I do not like skipping 90% content of dungeon to have “fasst run”. Please let me play my way.
If I want something special from people coming to my party – I’ll simply ask. And (I know I’m naive) I believe them. That’s all.
Seek your group expressing yourself – LFG CoE, fast run, no MF, only warriors. I can bet that you will get what you are asking for in 95% cases. People with full MF sets probably ignore your LFG. That’s so simple.
I’m asking – LFG Coe – I do not care if someone is on 79 lvl. So what? 1% less of damage? Healing? I play this game for fun – not to have optimized runs. If something take to long I can afford – I just inform my party – sorry guys, got to go, have fun. Is that so difficult?

I’m not sure I follow your train of logic here. Are you suggesting that people stacking MF are deliberately trying to stretch out the game? In no way does intentional skipping of trash mobs or advocating speed runs have any bearing on the social impact MF has on the game. In fact, I’d wager that most groups that skip intentional trash mobs are laden with MF primary members, why? Because the packs skipped the most will often be among the hardest groups in the Dungeon which require the party to be at their best.

As for taking non-max level characters either, why bring this up? They are leveling and making a deliberate effort to eventually be productive. So helping them level up is a good thing since it adds fresh blood to the pool of potential max level team-mates. Taking them in on these runs is a good thing and in no way really compares. But I get your point, min-maxers will (and do in this game) refuse non-80’s on virtue of efficiency. Generally this is more kittengery than I care for, I tend to welcome non-80’s as well.

And none of this addresses the arguments that MF is a terrible stat who’s sole purpose is to propel your income at the expense of others in every group situation.

Ok, leaving aside the argument of whether people using MF sets are being selfish(I’ve already stated my case & am tired of arguing it), I do have a question for the pro-MF crowd.

With all the discontent & dislike leveled at the use of MF in dungeon groups, not to mention the outright lying that is done by some MF users to get into those groups, how come I never see people advertise this:

LF2M for CoF, MF welcome

Have any of you tried forming a MF only or MF mostly group? If so, how’d you do? If not, why not? There are a couple of you(you know who you are), who have repetetively asserted that skill will overcome the loss of the combat stat that MF replaces. Heck, some of you have gone so far as to say that MF players are more skilled than the rest of us schlubs.

So, prove it. Form your own MF only or MF friendly group and document your results. According to the posts I’ve read from MF players, such a group should have zero dificulty clearing content. After all, you already claim to be able to vouch for the superior skill of all MF users and the ability of skill to compensate for any loss in DPS or survivability. What have you possibly got to lose?

Extra points in your favor, if you:

1. Take random players, as opposed to stacking the group with people you already know possess high skill.

2. Stack full Explorers Gear with all 6 superior Runes of the Noble

tinymurder.5791:

Ok, leaving aside the argument of whether people using MF sets are being selfish(I’ve already stated my case & am tired of arguing it), I do have a question for the pro-MF crowd.

With all the discontent & dislike leveled at the use of MF in dungeon groups, not to mention the outright lying that is done by some MF users to get into those groups, how come I never see people advertise this:

LF2M for CoF, MF welcome

Have any of you tried forming a MF only or MF mostly group? If so, how’d you do? If not, why not? There are a couple of you(you know who you are), who have repetetively asserted that skill will overcome the loss of the combat stat that MF replaces. Heck, some of you have gone so far as to say that MF players are more skilled than the rest of us schlubs.

So, prove it. Form your own MF only or MF friendly group and document your results. According to the posts I’ve read from MF players, such a group should have zero dificulty clearing content. After all, you already claim to be able to vouch for the superior skill of all MF users and the ability of skill to compensate for any loss in DPS or survivability. What have you possibly got to lose?

Extra points in your favor, if you:

1. Take random players, as opposed to stacking the group with people you already know possess high skill.

2. Stack full Explorers Gear with all 6 superior Runes of the Noble

I haven’t tried to form a specifically MF group. I have often partied with “suboptimal” players though.

Players with bad ping, bad reflexes, newbies, altoholics leveling their new toon and having gear from 20 levels earlier and no traits, you name it. Some of them may have been using MF as well. Also, a lot of them never use food buffs for some reason (even though I typically offer a large variety of food and potions that I always carry in my inventory just for that).

We never had any significant difficulties, at least nothing that I would attribute to their gear or lack of food buffs. Even the toughest encounters could be solved with a bit of teamwork and coordination.

The trick is to do the content, not to do it fast like you’re going to miss a train or something.

Once again. I often seek for group on LFG. When I want something specific i.e. Quick Daily run of fractal 10 then I ask for LFG FOTM 10 daily. If I want speed run in CoF with all Berserk – I’ll create such group. If I want no MF gear – I’d also ask this in the channel/LFG.

If I just want to play in dungeon I’ll ask for group WITHOUT any additional requirements. And if anyone joining me suppose that I’ll go for optimal dungeon build – it is his/her concern.

Shortly – you want something. Speed run, optimal build, superb coordination – ask for it. This like in restaurant – you ask for coffee or specify your choices? Latte? Double espresso? Why can’t you do the same in game.

And this is the answer why there is no LFG MF welcome. Because if I don’t care if people have MF or not – then this is not my concern to define such filters.

@Wreknar – “Are you suggesting that people stacking MF are deliberately trying to stretch out the game?” – No. I was just referring to other guys who insisted on optimal fast run because everybody has limited time play. Stacking MF? It helps me. Right. But it may help to get items I need in order to be better, without farming or playing TP. So it will help another day in another group.

I do have limited time play, but I’d expect to have fun, not the super quick dungeon reward. I can make 1 run in your 20 runs on CoF. I do not care. And from the posts in this topic – I’m not alone.

MF is selfish? Life is selfish. Grabbing a drink during dungeon run is selfish because in that time you are not helping the group. Guys – relax. Take it easy.

It is not a job when you have to do the list of tasks in the time. Wikipedia:
“GAME – A game is structured playing, usually undertaken for enjoyment and sometimes used as an educational tool.” Enjoyment matter.

tinymurder.5791:

Ok, leaving aside the argument of whether people using MF sets are being selfish(I’ve already stated my case & am tired of arguing it), I do have a question for the pro-MF crowd.

With all the discontent & dislike leveled at the use of MF in dungeon groups, not to mention the outright lying that is done by some MF users to get into those groups, how come I never see people advertise this:

LF2M for CoF, MF welcome

Have any of you tried forming a MF only or MF mostly group? If so, how’d you do? If not, why not? There are a couple of you(you know who you are), who have repetetively asserted that skill will overcome the loss of the combat stat that MF replaces. Heck, some of you have gone so far as to say that MF players are more skilled than the rest of us schlubs.

So, prove it. Form your own MF only or MF friendly group and document your results. According to the posts I’ve read from MF players, such a group should have zero dificulty clearing content. After all, you already claim to be able to vouch for the superior skill of all MF users and the ability of skill to compensate for any loss in DPS or survivability. What have you possibly got to lose?

Extra points in your favor, if you:

1. Take random players, as opposed to stacking the group with people you already know possess high skill.

2. Stack full Explorers Gear with all 6 superior Runes of the Noble

Sub optimal mf set there! 5 runes of the noble and 1 travellers/pirate gets you more mf.

If you are going sub optimal gearing then at least optimise your deficiency :p

Im the minority. I think magic find is a good stat. I think its good to acquire a gear set to farm in. I had fun accumulating mine.

Arenanet wants to change this, however. Take a look at the paragon system in Diablo. Hit level cap, then you get 100 more paragon levels. Each level you gain increases magic and gold find by 3% and bringing you closer to the magic/gold find cap. Thus decreasing the need for this gear, and eventually weeds itself out entirely. Each level takes like 3 or 4 hours to complete. In total, it would take a player that plays 3-4 hours a day rougly 3+ months to max it out. Simple, effective.

Its a good system, and another form of progression that I would be OK with (one of the few forms of progression that I would be OK with in this game).

I agree with the OP.

Ratty wrote:
MF gear is equal to level 68 blue gear.

Developer wrote:
We agree that this is unintended and we want to change it.

Many people wrote:
It’s selfish to use MF in dungeons

Done, facts, nothing to discuss. I could copy paste several of the earlier posts of the people that denies this, point out the flaws, how they go off topic, etc and so on. But instead I will just give some consolation to the people that have been trying to stick to the facts – there is NO reason to waste any ‘ink’ discussing the points with the ‘opposition’. So:
—-
I have almost NEVER seen so much BS in a single thread in any thread I’ve read on the internet. The only place I’ve seen something similar was in alt.tasteless.humor many, many years ago.

Some people here ignores the posts that totally negates ALL OF THEIR arguments/statements/posts/oppinions/views/etc. They ONLY quote the stuff that they can misunderstand on purpose, and they rant like people with no common sense, no ability to do math and it looks like they are either not too bright AND just here to troll.
—-

sorenrye.7238:

I agree with the OP.

Ratty wrote:
MF gear is equal to level 68 blue gear.

Developer wrote:
We agree that this is unintended and we want to change it.

Many people wrote:
It’s selfish to use MF in dungeons

Done, facts, nothing to discuss. I could copy paste several of the earlier posts of the people that denies this, point out the flaws, how they go off topic, etc and so on. But instead I will just give some consolation to the people that have been trying to stick to the facts – there is NO reason to waste any ‘ink’ discussing the points with the ‘opposition’. So:
—-
I have almost NEVER seen so much BS in a single thread in any thread I’ve read on the internet. The only place I’ve seen something similar was in alt.tasteless.humor many, many years ago.

Some people here ignores the posts that totally negates ALL OF THEIR arguments/statements/posts/oppinions/views/etc. They ONLY quote the stuff that they can misunderstand on purpose, and they rant like people with no common sense, no ability to do math and it looks like they are either not too bright AND just here to troll.
—-

Pretty much. I honestly think this thread may contain some of the worst logic and most zealous, reactionary denialism I’ve ever seen in a gaming forum.

The sad part is how easy it would be to fix the issues with MF without any dramatic overhauls by diffusing it in parties.

Einlanzer.1627:

sorenrye.7238:

I agree with the OP.

Ratty wrote:
MF gear is equal to level 68 blue gear.

Developer wrote:
We agree that this is unintended and we want to change it.

Many people wrote:
It’s selfish to use MF in dungeons

Done, facts, nothing to discuss. I could copy paste several of the earlier posts of the people that denies this, point out the flaws, how they go off topic, etc and so on. But instead I will just give some consolation to the people that have been trying to stick to the facts – there is NO reason to waste any ‘ink’ discussing the points with the ‘opposition’. So:
—-
I have almost NEVER seen so much BS in a single thread in any thread I’ve read on the internet. The only place I’ve seen something similar was in alt.tasteless.humor many, many years ago.

Some people here ignores the posts that totally negates ALL OF THEIR arguments/statements/posts/oppinions/views/etc. They ONLY quote the stuff that they can misunderstand on purpose, and they rant like people with no common sense, no ability to do math and it looks like they are either not too bright AND just here to troll.
—-

Pretty much. I honestly think this thread may contain some of the worst logic and most zealous, reactionary denialism I’ve ever seen in a gaming forum.

The sad part is how easy it would be to fix the issues with MF without any dramatic overhauls by diffusing it in parties.

I made a suggestion:

Take the Diablo 3 model: At max level, each time you level up you gain skillpoints but also additional levels. Each level grants +% of magic find and gold find.

OR, a skillpoint sink. You gain skill points per level at max level anyways. For 20 skill points you can purchase 5% magic find or something(the values can be modified ofcourse).

Colin, remove MF from equipments. Make it scaled to total achievement points. Capped at 10,000 achievement points. 100 achievement points = 1% MF

No more dps whining, and long term players get even more rewards. Good way to reward loyalty and effort.

Or just work it like agony resist.

Verdelet Arconia.6987:

Colin, remove MF from equipments. Make it scaled to total achievement points. Capped at 10,000 achievement points. 100 achievement points = 1% MF

No more dps whining, and long term players get even more rewards. Good way to reward loyalty and effort.

A good idea… i think I support it.

Sil.4560:

Or just work it like agony resist.

No to this! This would probably spawn another currency and this game already has too much.
Keep it simple and keep it so that the player does not have to do anything other than play the game.

The answer is simple : average party MF in dungeons.

Diablo III failed doing it correctly because even without MF sharing, it was much more profitable farming alone than in a group. In Diablo III, groups take longer to kill mobs because they get more health and more damage the more players there are. In fact, the “not sharing MF” part they did was more like one of the many incentives to group they created than some better system for handling MF.

In GW2, we don’t have such issues. If you want to farm a dungeon, you get a full group because going alone only means taking 5 times longer to kill stuff for the exact same reward.

stof.9341:

The answer is simple : average party MF in dungeons.

Diablo III failed doing it correctly because even without MF sharing, it was much more profitable farming alone than in a group. In Diablo III, groups take longer to kill mobs because they get more health and more damage the more players there are. In fact, the “not sharing MF” part they did was more like one of the many incentives to group they created than some better system for handling MF.

In GW2, we don’t have such issues. If you want to farm a dungeon, you get a full group because going alone only means taking 5 times longer to kill stuff for the exact same reward.

Blizzard realized this and made improvements. Theres a paragon system. At max level, you continue gaining experience. Every level after(which is a paragon level), you gain +3% magic find and 3% gold find. They said the thought behind this is that you will eventually hit the MF/GF cap..thus not needing any more MF gear. Also in doing so, you can stop gearing for MF and focus on a more useful stat in combat.

cesmode.4257:

stof.9341:

The answer is simple : average party MF in dungeons.

Diablo III failed doing it correctly because even without MF sharing, it was much more profitable farming alone than in a group. In Diablo III, groups take longer to kill mobs because they get more health and more damage the more players there are. In fact, the “not sharing MF” part they did was more like one of the many incentives to group they created than some better system for handling MF.

In GW2, we don’t have such issues. If you want to farm a dungeon, you get a full group because going alone only means taking 5 times longer to kill stuff for the exact same reward.

Blizzard realized this and made improvements. Theres a paragon system. At max level, you continue gaining experience. Every level after(which is a paragon level), you gain +3% magic find and 3% gold find. They said the thought behind this is that you will eventually hit the MF/GF cap..thus not needing any more MF gear. Also in doing so, you can stop gearing for MF and focus on a more useful stat in combat.

Frankly, this is a dumb and kind of sloppy approach. No surprise there, Blizzard in my opinion seems to make a lot of very poor design decisions with their games (and yes I know it’s not the same people that work on all of their games).

Verdelet Arconia.6987:

Colin, remove MF from equipments. Make it scaled to total achievement points. Capped at 10,000 achievement points. 100 achievement points = 1% MF

No more dps whining, and long term players get even more rewards. Good way to reward loyalty and effort.

Also a good way to screw over the people who wear main sets of Mf geat in open world, who have put time in finding a balance that they particularly like, and transmuting it to their liking, while also making a bunch of gear people bought/crafted for a specific purpose totally useless for that purpose.

I would much prefer it if they just turned Explorer gear into gimpy zerk gear by adding small amounts of crit stat to exotic explorer gear, and do something equivalent to travelers.

example: Add these crit dmg bonuses to explorer gear.

hands,boots, shoulders, head:1%
torso,legs:2%

amulet:2%
earrings,rings:1%

ascended:? (maybe the same amount you would normally get on an exotic piece)

Then nobody will run the other gear, everybody will wear magic find gear.

The reason we dont wear MF gear is to make the dungeon experience the less painful possible. Im sure you have been in dungeon with wipes, people that are on their back 3/4 of the time.

Wearing MF gear right now seriously impair your survivability at the expense of gaining more loot.

So you make people around you technically have to support you more, work harder for you (if you dont pull your weight) while YOU ALONE benefit from it.

I dont care if you wear mf in WvW or World pve.

But when i play with someone, i want them to be the best they can because the content is made to do it with 5 man. If you one drag everybody else down for personnal gain then you make 4 other people waste their time for your own greed.

Thats why an inspect button would be needed to see those MF wearer.

If MF wasnt making a difference with other PVE gear, people would form a full group of MF people without problem. But you dont see many people glad to claim that they run a full MF set, people keep it silent because they know they will get kicked.

In everygame there is magic find, i hate it. I hate to have to give my efficient armor away to wear something bad in hope to drop something good.

Same goes for the paragon system in D3, i think its stupid to some extent.

Ok when you are Paragon lvl 100, you get all the magic find and you can wear your good gear. BUT WHATS THE POINT?! when you reach lvl 60, its where you want to gear yourself, not 3 months later after you wore a magic find set, fought blood sweat and tears and are now fully gear and everything is a cake walk, thats not the time to wear your normal set anymore.

Magic find should go, its a selfish stats that doesnt bring anything interesting gameplay wise to the game.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Some fun ideas in here, we’re also actively discussing ways on how we’d best like to alleviate having to make players choose between having better stats, or using magic find. It’s not a choice that’s great for game play and there isn’t really anything that fun about it, even more so when group composition is taken into account. Ideally we’d also like to keep the ability to slowly build your magic find over time, but doing this at the cost of using better stats isn’t the right way to do that.

No ETA on any changes here, just want to point out we agree there is an issue here that goes against what we want Gw2 to be, and is something we want to address.

I’m very glad to read this. I dislike the concept of magic find gear, downright hated it in various Diablo clones and while its not as lame in the MMO setting as in those games, its still a bad idea all around based on the OPs explanation.

My suggestion to Anet would be to remove it entirely, and instead of figuring out how to change the whole thing just figure out a sensible way to allow people to replace the MF gear they worked for with other stat combinations.

I don’t think they should remove an entire stat equipment just because some dungeon runners have a problem with it, this game does have other players aside from dungeon runners.

Obviously, we all now now some changes to magic find are coming, but known of us have no idea what it will be.

But personally I would have a problem if the gear I worked up to getting, by trying out a few sets before I found out one I liked was suddenly made obsolete for the purpose I put the gear together in the first place was, and my gear isn’t even fully composed of explorers. It used to be, until I decided it would be better to lose 18% mf, and switch to zerker armor, but my trinkets are still explorer.

(and before anyone jumps the gun, like I mentioned before, I don’t run MF in dungeons, on guild bounties, or during temple events)

Nobody is denying that it’s flawed. I don’t like using it because it’s flawed.

What some of us deny is attributing “morals” to the issue. Numbers are not moral, and we don’t know what’s on people’s hearts when they make their choices. Anti MF users have enough ammo to dislike it WITHOUT stating it’s because it’s a “selfish” stat. There are many logical reasons why it’s not good. But selfishness isn’t it, because you don’t get to know who is a selfish person or not (it does open a huge can of worms, because it’s also self-serving to accuse others of doing something you wouldn’t do-also, I bet most people are not bothered by MF gear because they are “pure-hearted” individuals, but because they feel they are being “cheated” by the player who uses MF gear-this is not about who’s the “more moral” player.)

Therefore, it’s not a matter of math or logic, but even common sense. You don’t judge that which you don’t know, period. It’s not black or white (the stat may be “black”, but the motive for use isn’t, necessarily.)

The biggest problem with MF gear is that it encourages these kind of unnecessary flame wars and needless arguments about who’s the more “upright” player. I am sure that’s what ANet sees as the main problem as well. The stat% loss makes some people in groups to be too paranoid about it (promotes segregation), and even for solo play it’s quite sub-optimal due to players having to sacrifice the efficiency of their build just to POSSIBLY (but not surely) get better drops-see how I said it was bad without resorting to saying it’s a “selfish stat” and without claiming that players that use it MUST be “selfish?”

Star. You don’t have to be a selfish person to take selfish actions.
And actually yes, numerically it is selfish. It benefits only the individual in return for harming the group.
And I shall quote it to you AGAIN since you still clearly don’t understand what selfish means.

self·ish [sel-fish]
adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

Stop arguing against inarguable facts.

Also, having additional reasons why something is bad doesn’t invalidate other reasons for that. Yes, MF is bad because of those reasons you listed. It’s also bad because it is, in fact, selfish.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Star. You don’t have to be a selfish person to take selfish actions.
And actually yes, numerically it is selfish. It benefits only the individual in return for harming the group.
And I shall quote it to you AGAIN since you still clearly don’t understand what selfish means.

self·ish [sel-fish]
adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

Stop arguing against inarguable facts.

Also, having additional reasons why something is bad doesn’t invalidate other reasons for that. Yes, MF is bad because of those reasons you listed. It’s also bad because it is, in fact, selfish.

Vitality only helps you, a little extra HP really does nothing for mobs who hit for 20k.
Tough is entirely selfish because you are living longer than others, why not share bro?
Power, only benefits you because if others are tanky and staying alive you are just dpsing in easy mode while they use skill to stay alive.
Arguments can be made for any stat that it is selfish, and yet when that MF wearer sells the Berserker gear that dropped on broker and you buy it, doesn’t seem so selfish then? Or when MF wearers get tons of t5/t6 mats and you can make your legendarys and other things, are you thanking the coft path 1 guys or the MF guys in orr?

In fact, I’d say unless you are spamming your heal type group skills on guardian, and of course playing a guardian, your are being selfish. How dare you play thief and just dps while others use circles, and barriers, and interrupts. Interesting stuff.

Keep calling people selfish for using a stat that devs put in game, and missing the mark. Your pinning the donkey on the tail, why not pin the tail on the donkey? If you are going to go about generalizing and stereotyping every MF wearer as bad people who are out to get you like some wrong turn movie, at least direct your e-rage at the people who implemented the MF, not those using it. Might as well blame people who use candy corn, how dare you buy stuff that helps no one and gives you enjoyment.

This thread is so full of elitism and irony, why anyone continues the arguments is beyond me. But hey, what do I care, I just salvaged orr drops for 34 ectos and sold to the highest buyer. Boy I hope that guy hates MF wearers.

All you are doing is flaming and antagonizing others without giving any viable feedback on the actual problem. I can copy and paste too :e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (-ltzm, -l-)
n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

Have a nice night, see you in game.

Star Ace.5207:

Nobody is denying that it’s flawed. I don’t like using it because it’s flawed.

What some of us deny is attributing “morals” to the issue. Numbers are not moral, and we don’t know what’s on people’s hearts when they make their choices. Anti MF users have enough ammo to dislike it WITHOUT stating it’s because it’s a “selfish” stat. There are many logical reasons why it’s not good. But selfishness isn’t it, because you don’t get to know who is a selfish person or not (it does open a huge can of worms, because it’s also self-serving to accuse others of doing something you wouldn’t do-also, I bet most people are not bothered by MF gear because they are “pure-hearted” individuals, but because they feel they are being “cheated” by the player who uses MF gear-this is not about who’s the “more moral” player.)

Therefore, it’s not a matter of math or logic, but even common sense. You don’t judge that which you don’t know, period. It’s not black or white (the stat may be “black”, but the motive for use isn’t, necessarily.)

The biggest problem with MF gear is that it encourages these kind of unnecessary flame wars and needless arguments about who’s the more “upright” player. I am sure that’s what ANet sees as the main problem as well. The stat% loss makes some people in groups to be too paranoid about it (promotes segregation), and even for solo play it’s quite sub-optimal due to players having to sacrifice the efficiency of their build just to POSSIBLY (but not surely) get better drops-see how I said it was bad without resorting to saying it’s a “selfish stat” and without claiming that players that use it MUST be “selfish?”

I get what you mean no worries.

But i think some people said it with emotions behind. It is not the person that it selfish but the stat itself, promoting single reward vs helping your group as being a more efficient and self sustaining member.

Like my wife love the magic find stats, she get to have more lewt! Before dye got nerfed for drop, she was running full mf (although low level) gear to find even more. But when she did like AC or CM with her MF gear , she didnt have toughness nor vitality (she was elem). Every single aoe or hit she didnt avoid and sometime is was almost impossible to avoid because she was out of endurance, she would get one shotted. Me with my warrior back in time i could take 2-3-4 hits before going down. Giving me an actual response time before dropping.

Still today, running with MF gear in dungeon, you sacrifice a tremendous amount of stats , which is 11 slots, 11 enhance slots + consumables. Even if you mix and match your gear, you still lose quite alot of points making you less efficient at an activity that is GROUP CENTRIC where as MF is ONLY FOR YOU.

Like i said, if someone was running MF and we would get a share or even his full %, i wouldnt say a word against it, because he would boost our income and i would gladly work harder for it. But now you ask me to help carry (depending on the player skill) someone through the dungeon for his personnal gain?

Would you work an hour in real life while another dude is working with you too but always have the easiest chores or even take double break time. Or even, you work the same as the other guy, do the same exact job but you are more efficient then him, clearly. You get pay 10$ and he get pay 20$ while you did most of the work or are more efficient? Is it fair? no it isnt.

MF is a SELFISH stat and got no place in a MULTIPLAYER game. I would even say i despise magic find in everygame, be it diablo or whatever. Its stupid to trade your best gear for lesser gear to find more better gear but keep wearing the bad gear to keep finding better gear.

The concept of magic find is only fine as a bonus. Like for diablo 3, i would agree with magic find only for paragon level, get rid of the stats on the items. Then ill start liking magic find. Who ever said no to a fortune shrine?

Geotherma.2395:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Star. You don’t have to be a selfish person to take selfish actions.
And actually yes, numerically it is selfish. It benefits only the individual in return for harming the group.
And I shall quote it to you AGAIN since you still clearly don’t understand what selfish means.

self·ish [sel-fish]
adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

Stop arguing against inarguable facts.

Also, having additional reasons why something is bad doesn’t invalidate other reasons for that. Yes, MF is bad because of those reasons you listed. It’s also bad because it is, in fact, selfish.

Vitality only helps you, a little extra HP really does nothing for mobs who hit for 20k.
Tough is entirely selfish because you are living longer than others, why not share bro?
Power, only benefits you because if others are tanky and staying alive you are just dpsing in easy mode while they use skill to stay alive.
Arguments can be made for any stat that it is selfish, and yet when that MF wearer sells the Berserker gear that dropped on broker and you buy it, doesn’t seem so selfish then? Or when MF wearers get tons of t5/t6 mats and you can make your legendarys and other things, are you thanking the coft path 1 guys or the MF guys in orr?

In fact, I’d say unless you are spamming your heal type group skills on guardian, and of course playing a guardian, your are being selfish. How dare you play thief and just dps while others use circles, and barriers, and interrupts. Interesting stuff.

Keep calling people selfish for using a stat that devs put in game, and missing the mark. Your pinning the donkey on the tail, why not pin the tail on the donkey? If you are going to go about generalizing and stereotyping every MF wearer as bad people who are out to get you like some wrong turn movie, at least direct your e-rage at the people who implemented the MF, not those using it. Might as well blame people who use candy corn, how dare you buy stuff that helps no one and gives you enjoyment.

This thread is so full of elitism and irony, why anyone continues the arguments is beyond me. But hey, what do I care, I just salvaged orr drops for 34 ectos and sold to the highest buyer. Boy I hope that guy hates MF wearers.

I have been over this so kitten many times.
Vitality and Toughness help keep people alive. People who are alive are doing useful things, unlike people who are downed or dead, who not only are terrible at doing anything of use, but require someone else to stop doing useful things to get them back up. Not only do Vitality and Toughness assist in keeping people from going down, they also make it easier to get downed players back up. Therefore, they are both potentially of value to the team.
And higher damage means enemies die faster. Dead enemies is the goal. Faster dead enemies means you get it done more quickly, and also dead enemies are not of danger any more, so dead enemies protects the group.
MF does literally nothing of value for anyone in the group except the user.

And yes, when someone’s selling the stuff that’s still them being selfish. They aren’t doing it for the benefit of the people they’re selling it to, they’re doing it to GET MONEY.

Using the “the devs put it in the game” excuse is terrible, by the way. First of all, a dev has already SAID that they think it’s bad how it is now, which honestly is more in favor of it being selfish than not. Secondly, if the devs put a button in that, say, removed money from a teammate’s wallet and gave it to you, would it somehow not be selfish any more for someone to steal with this? Just because it’s in the game doesn’t stop it from being selfish.

The stat is selfish. I suggest you come to terms with that.

You know what I don’t like? Not having a very descriptive explanation on the mechanics of magic find… like if you have 100% MF gear on, what is the original amount of rate of drop? I.E., if the original drop rate is .0002% I guess that 100% increase ain’t much. I’d like an answer from a developer that actually worked on magic find.

Star Ace.5207:

EDITED
There’s nothing wrong with MF gear-there is, however, with forcing your playstyle on others. Since MF gears don’t force you to use whichever gear you use, while you should force them not to use what they like?
EDITED
In short, Mirta was right when she said the following:

“It’s selfish to care about what others wear”

Why is it our business, and how is it bad for the game, especially since you can circumvent this “issue” by avoiding players with MF gear? No need to tell others that MF gear is bad-I don’t tell you that Berserker’s gear is bad because you are way more fragile employing it, right? It works for you-and other stuff works for other people too.
EDITED

The above edited-for-length quote pretty much sums it up for me.

Geotherma.2395:

Vitality only helps you, a little extra HP really does nothing for mobs who hit for 20k.
Tough is entirely selfish because you are living longer than others, why not share bro?
Power, only benefits you because if others are tanky and staying alive you are just dpsing in easy mode while they use skill to stay alive.
Arguments can be made for any stat that it is selfish, and yet when that MF wearer sells the Berserker gear that dropped on broker and you buy it, doesn’t seem so selfish then? Or when MF wearers get tons of t5/t6 mats and you can make your legendarys and other things, are you thanking the coft path 1 guys or the MF guys in orr?
.

Really? I think you are mostly out of argument because those doesnt make any sense.

More vitality = Help you stay alive longer to do more dps, help rez others. Group stat, you help on the content and by you staying alive, you help everyone with buffs, damage and support. (whatever class you play.

More toughness = Help you stay alive longer to do more dps, help rez others. Group stat, you help on the content and by you staying alive, you help everyone with buffs, damage and support. (whatever class you play.

More power or crit = You hit harder , kill thing faster which in itself reduce the chance of people dying if the creature die faster. Some crit abilities proc effect like Empowering might which give more damage to everyone around. This help the fight end quicker, which make it a Group stat.

More healing = You rarely take more healing unless you wanna heal and help your group (except bunker pvp/wvw build, even then it make the regen you give to people better). Group stat again.

More magic find = You alone find the object, it doesnt benefit no one in the group. It doesnt make you stay alive longer, it doesnt help your teammate, it doesnt kill the mob faster, it doesnt interrupt, cancel aoe. You only get a % of chance to get a piece of loot, yourself, alone. By wearing this stat, you choose personnal greed over group efficiency.

Selling mats and items. SELLING mats and items…. SELLING … SELLING … MAKING PROFIT MAKING MONEY. You dont give me these mats, you dont give me the object your magic find got you to help me get better do you? No you sell them. So you are dead weight in dungeon and then you sell me what you found?

Its like you spit in my face by making me carry you then you slap me and laugh while i need to buy the item you found while i carried you.

darkchicken.8692:

Geotherma.2395:

Vitality only helps you, a little extra HP really does nothing for mobs who hit for 20k.
Tough is entirely selfish because you are living longer than others, why not share bro?
Power, only benefits you because if others are tanky and staying alive you are just dpsing in easy mode while they use skill to stay alive.
Arguments can be made for any stat that it is selfish, and yet when that MF wearer sells the Berserker gear that dropped on broker and you buy it, doesn’t seem so selfish then? Or when MF wearers get tons of t5/t6 mats and you can make your legendarys and other things, are you thanking the coft path 1 guys or the MF guys in orr?
.

Really? I think you are mostly out of argument because those doesnt make any sense.

That’s all I needed. I have no argument, people just making kittens out of themselves calling everyone selfish. This thread lost its pazzazz long ago, I’m hoping for another “ectos were nerfed” thread to give me somethen funny to read again.

Maybe all these MF haters should just step off their high horse and get themselves some MF gear. That way everyone in the group will be contributing the same and everyone can enjoy better rewards.. Nobody will be whining about 1 guy doing less work to get more loot. Problem solved.

Truth is, when wearing full MF gear you have to do more work in maintain that same effectiveness.

darkchicken.8692:

Selling mats and items. SELLING mats and items…. SELLING … SELLING … MAKING PROFIT MAKING MONEY. You dont give me these mats, you dont give me the object your magic find got you to help me get better do you? No you sell them. So you are dead weight in dungeon and then you sell me what you found?

Its like you spit in my face by making me carry you then you slap me and laugh while i need to buy the item you found while i carried you.

I’m sorry that MF users make you feel that way about your teammates. I’m sorry that you can’t have fun with people unless they directly benefit you.

Me, I consider the successful dungeon run to be my reward. All I need is 4 warm bodies to run with me (trees are acceptable too). What they wear is of no consequence to me or my parties.

I’m glad I’m not as selfish as you are.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

The stat is selfish. I suggest you come to terms with that.

I suggest you be more open-minded to the idea that people can disagree with your statement, and still have a valid opinion. Your “facts” don’t match with my own (that you have no right to determine whether someone is selfish or not based on their gear choices that ANet “tempted” them to use-since it’s “evil” and all of that.)

Your opinion is the one above, and it is valid to yourself, but not to me. It is not an universal fact, but your personal conviction (don’t feel bad for not having your opinion validated as “the facts”-if it’s valid to you, it’s valid to you, and that’s fine, even if I can’t agree with it for my own valid reasons.)

ANet admitted that it’s a problem, not that players are being selfish in using the flawed system they themselves designed. What Geotherma said is exactly right-blame ANet-not possibly innocent players-for indirectly starting this whole debate and endless-cycle threads in the first place.

You are making it too much about who’s right or wrong, (winning senseless arguments and stuff) so I won’t debate. I derive no satisfaction from “winning” arguments, as I know what I believe in, and proving others “wrong” holds zero value to me (the reason I continue to state my opinion is in order to defend the rights of those who are being placed in one unfair category-“selfish”-not to prove how “wrong” you are.)

I still have yet to see a true pro-magic find argument – just people getting shot down when they attempt to explain what irks them about magic find. Selfish is a bad choice of words because it’s very, very negative, and it’s typically a word we use to define people, not stats. Sure, I’ll agree that calling MF users selfish is a clumsy argument, and it’s beside the point. We’ve pointed that out now. But then, what is your actual argument? Is MF not a big deal for you? Then your in the perfect situation – it won’t bother you while its here, and it won’t bother you when it changes.

“Let people wear what they want, I don’t care” is NOT an argument for or against MF. It just derails the conversation. Give an argument for the point that MF is GOOD as it currently exists – the burden of proof is on you, since the devs have agreed they want to change the way MF works. Also, address the point that people were trying to make – that MF is the only stat on armor that just benefits the wearer, and sacrifices a slot that could be filled with a combat relevant stat. Why is this a good trade-off? And if you don’t like the way MF works currently but don’t like any of the proposed solutions, what is your suggestion?

cesmode.4257:

Verdelet Arconia.6987:

Colin, remove MF from equipments. Make it scaled to total achievement points. Capped at 10,000 achievement points. 100 achievement points = 1% MF

No more dps whining, and long term players get even more rewards. Good way to reward loyalty and effort.

A good idea… i think I support it.

As a mfer I like the above idea/approach.
I would say take it a step further and cap it for dungs as well. That way u can have gear with stats that can “benefit/contribute” more so to the group and still have mf going.

I would cap it at say 50% for dung and wvwvw.
For pve area can have that 10k max of points worth.
And when ur in a party the average of the 5 ppl can be taken when only in pve area. This would not work in dung pt.

FuriousPop.2789:

cesmode.4257:

Verdelet Arconia.6987:

Colin, remove MF from equipments. Make it scaled to total achievement points. Capped at 10,000 achievement points. 100 achievement points = 1% MF

No more dps whining, and long term players get even more rewards. Good way to reward loyalty and effort.

A good idea… i think I support it.

As a mfer I like the above idea/approach.
I would say take it a step further and cap it for dungs as well. That way u can have gear with stats that can “benefit/contribute” more so to the group and still have mf going.

I would cap it at say 50% for dung and wvwvw.
For pve area can have that 10k max of points worth.
And when ur in a party the average of the 5 ppl can be taken when only in pve area. This would not work in dung pt.

What would be the point in capping it in dungeons?

if Anet does what that person suggested, MF would be removed from all equipment, which is why I disagreed with it.

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

The stat is selfish. I suggest you come to terms with that.

I suggest you be more open-minded to the idea that people can disagree with your statement, and still have a valid opinion. Your “facts” don’t match with my own (that you have no right to determine whether someone is selfish or not based on their gear choices that ANet “tempted” them to use-since it’s “evil” and all of that.)

Your opinion is the one above, and it is valid to yourself, but not to me. It is not an universal fact, but your personal conviction (don’t feel bad for not having your opinion validated as “the facts”-if it’s valid to you, it’s valid to you, and that’s fine, even if I can’t agree with it for my own valid reasons.)

ANet admitted that it’s a problem, not that players are being selfish in using the flawed system they themselves designed. What Geotherma said is exactly right-blame ANet-not possibly innocent players-for indirectly starting this whole debate and endless-cycle threads in the first place.

You are making it too much about who’s right or wrong, (winning senseless arguments and stuff) so I won’t debate. I derive no satisfaction from “winning” arguments, as I know what I believe in, and proving others “wrong” holds zero value to me (the reason I continue to state my opinion is in order to defend the rights of those who are being placed in one unfair category-“selfish”-not to prove how “wrong” you are.)

It’s not true to me that it fits the definition of the word “selfish” exactly, it’s true of the english language. It is a stat that benefits the user to the detriment of their group. Which is selfish. There is no opinion to be had about that, it simply is.
There is no opinion that 2+2=4, because it is defined as such. The “opinion” that 2+2=5 is wrong.

Argue for choice and whatnot all you want, though then I will ask you the question AntiGw has refused to answer of why a mechanic that encourages people to screw their group should be in a game, but don’t argue against the reality of the situation that it is selfish.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

It’s not true to me that it fits the definition of the word “selfish” exactly, it’s true of the english language. It is a stat that benefits the user to the detriment of their group. Which is selfish. There is no opinion to be had about that, it simply is.
There is no opinion that 2+2=4, because it is defined as such. The “opinion” that 2+2=5 is wrong.

Argue for choice and whatnot all you want, though then I will ask you the question AntiGw has refused to answer of why a mechanic that encourages people to screw their group should be in a game, but don’t argue against the reality of the situation that it is selfish.

There is no “detriment” to the group. You are arguing that potential benefits of the useful stats are ignored in favor of less useful ones.

It’s the same argument that MPAA is using about “losing” potential profits due to file sharing. Think about that for a while.

I’m not saying that MF design couldn’t be improved. I am saying that there is nothing wrong in using MF as it is in the game, as long as it is there.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

The stat is selfish. I suggest you come to terms with that.

I suggest you be more open-minded to the idea that people can disagree with your statement, and still have a valid opinion. Your “facts” don’t match with my own (that you have no right to determine whether someone is selfish or not based on their gear choices that ANet “tempted” them to use-since it’s “evil” and all of that.)

Your opinion is the one above, and it is valid to yourself, but not to me. It is not an universal fact, but your personal conviction (don’t feel bad for not having your opinion validated as “the facts”-if it’s valid to you, it’s valid to you, and that’s fine, even if I can’t agree with it for my own valid reasons.)

ANet admitted that it’s a problem, not that players are being selfish in using the flawed system they themselves designed. What Geotherma said is exactly right-blame ANet-not possibly innocent players-for indirectly starting this whole debate and endless-cycle threads in the first place.

You are making it too much about who’s right or wrong, (winning senseless arguments and stuff) so I won’t debate. I derive no satisfaction from “winning” arguments, as I know what I believe in, and proving others “wrong” holds zero value to me (the reason I continue to state my opinion is in order to defend the rights of those who are being placed in one unfair category-“selfish”-not to prove how “wrong” you are.)

It’s not true to me that it fits the definition of the word “selfish” exactly, it’s true of the english language. It is a stat that benefits the user to the detriment of their group. Which is selfish. There is no opinion to be had about that, it simply is.
There is no opinion that 2+2=4, because it is defined as such. The “opinion” that 2+2=5 is wrong.

Argue for choice and whatnot all you want, though then I will ask you the question AntiGw has refused to answer of why a mechanic that encourages people to screw their group should be in a game, but don’t argue against the reality of the situation that it is selfish.

As aforementioned, it’s the game’s problem that people have to choose between stats or possibly better drops. So you really have to blame ANet for all that stuff (I know you already did). AntiGw is not at fault for the way ANet designed it. The reason I loathe using MF gear EVEN solo (I have a a full exotic set with Wayfarer’s Trinkets for my Guardian, the whole nine yards, that I rarely use) is because I don’t like what it does to my builds (which is a valid point for all concerned.)

The only pro for MF gear is theoretically better drops, but unfortunately, barring celestial stats to an extent, there will always be tons of stat loss (though I honestly don’t care whether others use it if they can live with that-I have never used it on Dungeons, but I don’t consider myself “selfless” or “morally superior” JUST BECAUSE I have never used it in such places.) Even if the stat lost was a secondary stat (imagine Explorer’s with Power as primary and Precision/MF as Secondary), it would inevitable still be too much stat loss for my taste, and I am sure many others-I do not envy ANet trying to fix that because so many people already have Ascended gear with the stats, etc., so eliminating it altogether is probably something they can’t really consider (unless they offer some sort of compensation, but there’s way too many accounts to “fix” in this way.)

AntiGw.9367:

There is no “detriment” to the group. You are arguing that potential benefits of the useful stats are ignored in favor of less useful ones.

It’s the same argument that MPAA is using about “losing” potential profits due to file sharing. Think about that for a while.

I’m not saying that MF design couldn’t be improved. I am saying that there is nothing wrong in using MF as it is in the game, as long as it is there.

So your defense of MF is to compare it to piracy.
Wow. Just…. wow. How is that in any way a defense of it?

For roughly the same price, they could have gotten inarguably better stats. Instead, they took the inarguably worse one and then joined a group using it. That’s a detriment. On purpose.

Star Ace.5207:

As aforementioned, it’s the game’s problem that people have to choose between stats or possibly better drops. So you really have to blame ANet for all that stuff (I know you already did). AntiGw is not at fault for the way ANet designed it. The reason I loathe using MF gear EVEN solo (I have a a full exotic set with Wayfarer’s Trinkets for my Guardian, the whole nine yards, that I rarely use) is because I don’t like what it does to my builds (which is a valid point for all concerned.)

The only pro for MF gear is theoretically better drops, but unfortunately, barring celestial stats to an extent, there will always be tons of stat loss (though I honestly don’t care whether others use it if they can live with that-I have never used it on Dungeons, but I don’t consider myself “selfless” or “morally superior” JUST BECAUSE I have never used it in such places.) Even if the stat lost was a secondary stat (imagine Explorer’s with Power as primary and Precision/MF as Secondary), it would inevitable still be too much stat loss for my taste, and I am sure many others-I do not envy ANet trying to fix that because so many people already have Ascended gear with the stats, etc., so eliminating it altogether is probably something they can’t really consider (unless they offer some sort of compensation, but there’s way too many accounts to “fix” in this way.)

It’s not only the devs fault for people using selfish mechanics. It’s their fault it’s in the game at all, but it’s still the players’ fault for using it (selfishly, obviously solo it’s fine, if still unlikely to be a good choice).

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

There is no “detriment” to the group. You are arguing that potential benefits of the useful stats are ignored in favor of less useful ones.

It’s the same argument that MPAA is using about “losing” potential profits due to file sharing. Think about that for a while.

I’m not saying that MF design couldn’t be improved. I am saying that there is nothing wrong in using MF as it is in the game, as long as it is there.

So your defense of MF is to compare it to piracy.
Wow. Just…. wow. How is that in any way a defense of it?

For roughly the same price, they could have gotten inarguably better stats. Instead, they took the inarguably worse one and then joined a group using it. That’s a detriment. On purpose.

It’s pretty obvious that you don’t understand anything I’m saying. Arguing with you is like giving a bicycle to a fish.

Lambent.6375:

FuriousPop.2789:

cesmode.4257:

Verdelet Arconia.6987:

Colin, remove MF from equipments. Make it scaled to total achievement points. Capped at 10,000 achievement points. 100 achievement points = 1% MF

No more dps whining, and long term players get even more rewards. Good way to reward loyalty and effort.

A good idea… i think I support it.

As a mfer I like the above idea/approach.
I would say take it a step further and cap it for dungs as well. That way u can have gear with stats that can “benefit/contribute” more so to the group and still have mf going.

I would cap it at say 50% for dung and wvwvw.
For pve area can have that 10k max of points worth.
And when ur in a party the average of the 5 ppl can be taken when only in pve area. This would not work in dung pt.

What would be the point in capping it in dungeons?

if Anet does what that person suggested, MF would be removed from all equipment, which is why I disagreed with it.

There is another way, add a second MF progression – with achievement points is a good idea, or with extra levels after 80 or whatever they come up with – and make it not stuck with gear MF (stack with guild/banner buffs though). While you have low “extra” MF your MF gear will give a higher stat and be more optimal, but as your “extra” MF will increase over time it will surpass your gear MF and slowly you will start using only that and change to some other kind of gear.

It keeps MF gear relevant up to a point, so it’s not useless at all.

maddoctor.2738:

Lambent.6375:

FuriousPop.2789:

cesmode.4257:

Verdelet Arconia.6987:

Colin, remove MF from equipments. Make it scaled to total achievement points. Capped at 10,000 achievement points. 100 achievement points = 1% MF

No more dps whining, and long term players get even more rewards. Good way to reward loyalty and effort.

A good idea… i think I support it.

As a mfer I like the above idea/approach.
I would say take it a step further and cap it for dungs as well. That way u can have gear with stats that can “benefit/contribute” more so to the group and still have mf going.

I would cap it at say 50% for dung and wvwvw.
For pve area can have that 10k max of points worth.
And when ur in a party the average of the 5 ppl can be taken when only in pve area. This would not work in dung pt.

What would be the point in capping it in dungeons?

if Anet does what that person suggested, MF would be removed from all equipment, which is why I disagreed with it.

There is another way, add a second MF progression – with achievement points is a good idea, or with extra levels after 80 or whatever they come up with – and make it not stuck with gear MF (stack with guild/banner buffs though). While you have low “extra” MF your MF gear will give a higher stat and be more optimal, but as your “extra” MF will increase over time it will surpass your gear MF and slowly you will start using only that and change to some other kind of gear.

It keeps MF gear relevant up to a point, so it’s not useless at all.

Yeah, that would be cool.

If Colin Johanson were still checking up on this thread, I would just want to ask him.

“Knowing that changes to MF will be coming in the future, if I were to long in right now and buy/craft a full set of exotic MF gear, and buy a couple of ascended magic find earrings with guild commendations for the sole purpose of increasing my magic find, would I regret it once these changes are put in place?”

Is there any place on the forum for questions like this, or would I cringe have to start a new thread?

I spent a lot of time on this chart, to catch you all up:

To me the guy wearing MF is a far smarter player than the person not wearing it…

Tony.6028:

I spent a lot of time on this chart, to catch you all up:

You win the interwebz. This is the best thing ever. lol