Guild Wars 2

One picture is worth a thousand posts.

cesmode.4257:

No to this! This would probably spawn another currency and this game already has too much.
Keep it simple and keep it so that the player does not have to do anything other than play the game.

This is a total red herring. Possibly two in the same post. It has nothing to do with additional currencies or doing anything other than playing the game itself.

Ricky Da Man.5064:

To me the guy wearing MF is a far smarter player than the person not wearing it…

Why, because they’re leeching off of the rest of the dungeon party or because they’re under the delusion that it’s actually helping them while they farm when it’s all just total RNG anyway? I wear 0% MF. Zero. I get rares – even exotics – out the nose and have found a precursor like that. I see someone wearing MF and I see someone who says, “I’m willing to let the rest of the party carry me because dungeons don’t take my full effort when I have teammates to make it go faster.”

Don’t even get me started on the people who walk around in MF gear or stacks of Luck sigil in WvW. They may as well be walking over to rally the enemy themselves.

AntiGw.9367:

I haven’t tried to form a specifically MF group. I have often partied with “suboptimal” players though.

Players with bad ping, bad reflexes, newbies, altoholics leveling their new toon and having gear from 20 levels earlier and no traits, you name it. Some of them may have been using MF as well. Also, a lot of them never use food buffs for some reason (even though I typically offer a large variety of food and potions that I always carry in my inventory just for that).

We never had any significant difficulties, at least nothing that I would attribute to their gear or lack of food buffs. Even the toughest encounters could be solved with a bit of teamwork and coordination.

The trick is to do the content, not to do it fast like you’re going to miss a train or something.

So, basicly, you’re saying you won’t do it? Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but my take away from your post is that you are comparing a MF group to a group of bad, inexperienced, or undergeared players. Furthermore, you seem to be implying that as a result we should just stop and enjoy the ride.

I agree that the obsession with max-efficiency speed runs can really kill the fun of running a dungeon. I also agree that there can be many reasons why a specific group either fails to complete a dungeon or has significant difficulties in completing a dungeon. Most of those reasons have little to do with MF.

None of that, however, has anything to do with my post. MF users seem to be bothered by the attitude of non-MF users in dungeon groups. My post was askinf why not form your own, MF-friendly groups? Your response and the responses of others, unsurprisingly, does not address this point.

Oh well, I didn’t figure I’d get any takers. Science can wait, I guess.

Szamsziel.5627:

Once again. I often seek for group on LFG. When I want something specific i.e. Quick Daily run of fractal 10 then I ask for LFG FOTM 10 daily. If I want speed run in CoF with all Berserk – I’ll create such group. If I want no MF gear – I’d also ask this in the channel/LFG.

Whether you get this, is debatable, since a number of the pro-MF crowd have already said that they’ll ping their non-MF gear. My post was to see if the pro-MF crowd would even want to run a MF-friendly group. I don’t think they would, since the more people you have in the party giving up a combat stat in favor of an “adventuring” stat, the better the chance of a full party wipe. But I could be wrong, & I wanted to put the idea out there to see if someone could change my mind.

Szamsziel.5627:

If I just want to play in dungeon I’ll ask for group WITHOUT any additional requirements. And if anyone joining me suppose that I’ll go for optimal dungeon build – it is his/her concern.

Shortly – you want something. Speed run, optimal build, superb coordination – ask for it. This like in restaurant – you ask for coffee or specify your choices? Latte? Double espresso? Why can’t you do the same in game.

And this is the answer why there is no LFG MF welcome. Because if I don’t care if people have MF or not – then this is not my concern to define such filters.

I applaud your willingness to have a run that just goes at the pace of the party, or even on that is a teaching run for newbies. However, you said at the start of your post, that you would absolutely define filters, if you wanted something. The bolded section at the end of your post that was addressed to me says other wise. So, which is it? Are you in favor of filtering the group or not? Or is this to cover the reason why you don’t want to run a MF-friendly group?

I’d like to know why this is being ignored. Wouldn’t you rather try a run with people who clearly don’t care if you use MF? Seems to me that would be less stressful than dealing with people who want to ping your gear, especially if they want to know why the gear you linked is different from what you’re wearing.

Cameirus.8407:

Sub optimal mf set there! 5 runes of the noble and 1 travellers/pirate gets you more mf.

If you are going sub optimal gearing then at least optimise your deficiency :p

Made me smile. Thank you.

tinymurder.5791:

AntiGw.9367:

I haven’t tried to form a specifically MF group. I have often partied with “suboptimal” players though.

Players with bad ping, bad reflexes, newbies, altoholics leveling their new toon and having gear from 20 levels earlier and no traits, you name it. Some of them may have been using MF as well. Also, a lot of them never use food buffs for some reason (even though I typically offer a large variety of food and potions that I always carry in my inventory just for that).

We never had any significant difficulties, at least nothing that I would attribute to their gear or lack of food buffs. Even the toughest encounters could be solved with a bit of teamwork and coordination.

The trick is to do the content, not to do it fast like you’re going to miss a train or something.

So, basicly, you’re saying you won’t do it? Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but my take away from your post is that you are comparing a MF group to a group of bad, inexperienced, or undergeared players. Furthermore, you seem to be implying that as a result we should just stop and enjoy the ride.

I agree that the obsession with max-efficiency speed runs can really kill the fun of running a dungeon. I also agree that there can be many reasons why a specific group either fails to complete a dungeon or has significant difficulties in completing a dungeon. Most of those reasons have little to do with MF.

None of that, however, has anything to do with my post. MF users seem to be bothered by the attitude of non-MF users in dungeon groups. My post was askinf why not form your own, MF-friendly groups? Your response and the responses of others, unsurprisingly, does not address this point.

Oh well, I didn’t figure I’d get any takers. Science can wait, I guess.

Of course I won’t do it. Why on earth would I do it? I’m not going to ask anyone to bring only MF gear, just as I’m not going to ask them not to bring MF or other type of gear. I’ve already told you that I have cleared multiple dungeons with sub-optimal groups, and I won’t even bother figuring out who in the party is sub-optimal. It’s not my business, nor do I care, nor does it matter, because we can clear a dungeon anyway, maybe with a tiny bit more effort.

Yes, I am implying that we should simply enjoy the ride. That’s the whole point of playing the game.

Any group I’m forming is friendly to anything. What do you expect me to address that I haven’t already several times?

Verdelet Arconia.6987:

Colin, remove MF from equipments. Make it scaled to total achievement points. Capped at 10,000 achievement points. 100 achievement points = 1% MF

No more dps whining, and long term players get even more rewards. Good way to reward loyalty and effort.

That’s an interesting idea, that is worthy of discussion. Unfortunately, it’s unlikely to be discussed rationally on the forums at this time. People on both sides feel like they’re backed into a corner, so the same argument get trotted out and ignored, regardless of validity, accuracy, or relevancy.

tinymurder.5791:

None of that, however, has anything to do with my post. MF users seem to be bothered by the attitude of non-MF users in dungeon groups. My post was askinf why not form your own, MF-friendly groups? Your response and the responses of others, unsurprisingly, does not address this point.

Oh well, I didn’t figure I’d get any takers. Science can wait, I guess.

A group of us did just that. It took about 3 minutes longer to complete Molten Foundry at a net gain of about 1-1.5g (across the team, not individually) using a full MF set on the same composition of professions. Hardly worth arguing over. Tougher dungeons however would be much longer i suppose.

The stat seems basically useless to me, “RNG” is pretty kitten in the game and that boost of MF gear just doesn’t seem to help much at all. I mean it works, but it’s hardly worth the sacrifice for most content.

tinymurder.5791:

Verdelet Arconia.6987:

Colin, remove MF from equipments. Make it scaled to total achievement points. Capped at 10,000 achievement points. 100 achievement points = 1% MF

No more dps whining, and long term players get even more rewards. Good way to reward loyalty and effort.

That’s an interesting idea, that is worthy of discussion. Unfortunately, it’s unlikely to be discussed rationally on the forums at this time. People on both sides feel like they’re backed into a corner, so the same argument get trotted out and ignored, regardless of validity, accuracy, or relevancy.

If you look on page 12, and some previous pages before that, I stated why I didn’t like this idea, and then maddoctor.2738 offered an alternative that I was cool with. Unless you consider my reason for not liking the idea to not be rationale.

An extended post I made in another thread about why I wouldn’t want MF to be removed from gear or runes.

Note: I’ll support pretty much any solution that doesn’t reduce the effectiveness of MF on mf gear in it’s current state.

I don’t care if people don’t like it in dungeons, or if people think it’s useless, I primary play in open world, leave my gimpy magic find gear be.

tinymurder.5791:

I’d like to know why this is being ignored. Wouldn’t you rather try a run with people who clearly don’t care if you use MF? Seems to me that would be less stressful than dealing with people who want to ping your gear, especially if they want to know why the gear you linked is different from what you’re wearing.

Tinymurder – once again : if I create the group I can ask for filter or limits. So why should I bother with LFG MF-friendly? The same I do not create group:
“LFG, MF Friendly, suboptimal run friendly, all chars and professions friendly, no gear checking, no zerker required…” and so on. Why should I? (BTW I’m not using explorer nor trinkets for MF on majority of my characters). Let’s have example from life : I want just any water (because I do not care what I get, I’m just thirsty). Should I bother with saying : May I ask for water, sparkling or not, it may be any brand? For me it does not matter. The same with mf – if anyone join me having mf – that’s fine. If without, also fine.

If YOU want to have non-mf group – state it. Don’t assume that everyone wants the same as you. Want to join group without specified limits? – you are welcome to join, insist on your terms and go with group or leave.

And please do not assume (this is to everyone) that all MF geared ping armor lying. If someone want me to ping and I do not want to share – I just leave. I do not want to play in the party I assumed to be bad one.

Julie Yann.5379:

Maybe all these MF haters should just step off their high horse and get themselves some MF gear. That way everyone in the group will be contributing the same and everyone can enjoy better rewards.. Nobody will be whining about 1 guy doing less work to get more loot. Problem solved.

Truth is, when wearing full MF gear you have to do more work in maintain that same effectiveness.

So….you’re saying that MF gimps your effectiveness?

Did I read that correctly?

I just want to be sure I understand what you wrote, because the logical extension of that line is that if you are in MF gear, and everyone else isn’t, then you are contributing less than they are, while getting better rewards. Unless, of course, you are so much more skilled than the non-MF users in the party. That, by the way, is an opinion stated by more than one MF-user in this thread, the idea that MF-users are inherently more skilled. A false supposition, but a popular on regardless.

I wonder if ther person who said that it’s intolerant to ask people to not wear MF-gear, will say the same thing about your suggestion that everyone wear MF-gear. By the way, I thought that was a delightfully wicked suggestion. Spikes everyone’s guns. I tried suggesting that the MF users try running an all MF group, but so far no one is biting.

munkiman.3068:

tinymurder.5791:

None of that, however, has anything to do with my post. MF users seem to be bothered by the attitude of non-MF users in dungeon groups. My post was askinf why not form your own, MF-friendly groups? Your response and the responses of others, unsurprisingly, does not address this point.

Oh well, I didn’t figure I’d get any takers. Science can wait, I guess.

A group of us did just that. It took about 3 minutes longer to complete Molten Foundry at a net gain of about 1-1.5g (across the team, not individually) using a full MF set on the same composition of professions. Hardly worth arguing over. Tougher dungeons however would be much longer i suppose.

The stat seems basically useless to me, “RNG” is pretty kitten in the game and that boost of MF gear just doesn’t seem to help much at all. I mean it works, but it’s hardly worth the sacrifice for most content.

Thank you, thank you, a thousand times thank you. I could have sworn my words were falling on deaf ears. So to speak.

So, was this a group you regularly run with? Familiar people, good communication, etc? Did the increase of time seem to be directly linked to the decrease in damage, or a decrease in survivability? Please, let me know if you decide to try any more experiments.

Szamsziel.5627:

Tinymurder – once again : if I create the group I can ask for filter or limits. So why should I bother with LFG MF-friendly? The same I do not create group:
“LFG, MF Friendly, suboptimal run friendly, all chars and professions friendly, no gear checking, no zerker required…” and so on. Why should I? (BTW I’m not using explorer nor trinkets for MF on majority of my characters). Let’s have example from life : I want just any water (because I do not care what I get, I’m just thirsty). Should I bother with saying : May I ask for water, sparkling or not, it may be any brand? For me it does not matter. The same with mf – if anyone join me having mf – that’s fine. If without, also fine.

If YOU want to have non-mf group – state it. Don’t assume that everyone wants the same as you. Want to join group without specified limits? – you are welcome to join, insist on your terms and go with group or leave.

And please do not assume (this is to everyone) that all MF geared ping armor lying. If someone want me to ping and I do not want to share – I just leave. I do not want to play in the party I assumed to be bad one.

I already know why people don’t advertise LFM MF only. To do so is a gimmick, or to test a theory, like munkiman just did. Otherwise, people want something specific. Usually something that is not compatible with MF. MF users go into groups that might be hostile to their choice of gear, because they want a group that will clear content and give them a chance at better loot. An all MF group would be friendlier to this gear choice, but not necessarily the best choice for clearing content smoothly and efficiently.

Lastly, I don’t assume that all MF users lie about their gear, but there have been a number of folks on this and other threads that admit to pinging their normal gear, instead of being honest and upfront. A couple of them have even bragged about linking their MF gear and the loot they got, after the run is over. Since there’s no way to weed out the bad from the good, all MF users wind up tarred with the same brush. I can wish all day long for people to be more honest and forthright, but that won’t change human nature. The desire to get something for nothing often outweighs our sense of equality and fairplay.

May I ask you something? And this may answer that why you cannot see such groups LFG.
Assume that you don’t like Rangers. You do not want them in your party. I’m stating that I do not care if there is 1 Ranger or 4 in my party. Now you want me to create group LFG 4 Rangers to prove your theory. And I’ll recommend that you will seek for : LFG no rangers. Which way it should be?

I’ve played in the pugs in dungeons. And it’s easy to see if someone is using for example pirate runes (maybe for might duration:)) – parrot says it all. But never seen a comment from the party members I was on for that person – please remove your MF or I’ll leave because I’m doing more than you. We just played having fun.

And once again you are for smooth and efficient run. But this is your GOAL, not necessarily shared in your team. It may be, but it may be not. And if you just assume that this obvious that your party shares your goal – this behavior is selfish. /behavior – not person/.

Well, let me try to look at this from the other side.

Is MF food selfish?

To be honest, you yourself do not want MF in dungoens. First, it impacts your team’s performance negatively; it drags others down which is not nice. Secondly, in most dungeons you fight only very few enemies really. Any temple event in Orr will have five times more enemies “per minute” so to speak. The looting of enemies in dungeons is not “where it is at” so to speak. You could go for +money, which is the far better option due to the silver dropped by champion bosses. +Money can be done by ascended amulet infusions which have no downside, a runeset with far less negative impact than giving up inscriptions and nourishments nobody will complain about.

ArchonWing.9480:

Well, let me try to look at this from the other side.

Is MF food selfish?

Seven selfish shellfish.

Edit: Depends, are you having a ruminant tonic on the side?

I honestly never anticipated this thread getting this huge. I will make sure to bring this back from the dead when the developers come up with a ‘solution’ so we can discuss it. Unfortunately in all likelihood there will be yet another ‘progression system’ that isn’t needed or wanted.

ArchonWing.9480:

Well, let me try to look at this from the other side.

Is MF food selfish?

One of the MF foods is the only food with +20% boon duration that I know of. Is that one selfish? The usual MF/GF food though is pretty much so.

But unless everyone in the group is going on with correct food there’s no right to complain :p

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/69590/Magic_Find_Flow_Chart.png

This picture is win.

tinymurder.5791:

Julie Yann.5379:

Maybe all these MF haters should just step off their high horse and get themselves some MF gear. That way everyone in the group will be contributing the same and everyone can enjoy better rewards.. Nobody will be whining about 1 guy doing less work to get more loot. Problem solved.

Truth is, when wearing full MF gear you have to do more work in maintain that same effectiveness.

So….you’re saying that MF gimps your effectiveness?

Did I read that correctly?

I just want to be sure I understand what you wrote, because the logical extension of that line is that if you are in MF gear, and everyone else isn’t, then you are contributing less than they are, while getting better rewards. Unless, of course, you are so much more skilled than the non-MF users in the party. That, by the way, is an opinion stated by more than one MF-user in this thread, the idea that MF-users are inherently more skilled. A false supposition, but a popular on regardless.

I wonder if ther person who said that it’s intolerant to ask people to not wear MF-gear, will say the same thing about your suggestion that everyone wear MF-gear. By the way, I thought that was a delightfully wicked suggestion. Spikes everyone’s guns. I tried suggesting that the MF users try running an all MF group, but so far no one is biting.

Spiking peoples guns is easy in an MF thread. I just couldn’t resist trolling it a bit. You did read that right. The math don’t lie, 1 less combat stat makes the gear slightly less efficient in combat but with a little more concentration you can overcome that slight ineffectiveness. That’s what I meant by working harder to be as effective but in most content it doesn’t make a difference. Here is a rough example of why?

(This is just a theoretical method of calculating combat effectiveness in a party used to better explain what I believe most pro MF peeps are trying to say. If you want actual numbers you will have to do the work yourself.)

Take a party of non MF players with exotic gear, take into account their gear, skill level, familiarity of the dungeon, blood alcohol level, levels of fatigue, reflex speed, latency, etc. Apply numbers to each of those factors and add them up to get a combat effectiveness index. Lets say this party has an index of 125 and that particular dungeon they are running needs an index of 65 in order to have success (reasonably quick, not to many deaths/downs). A party with an index of 125 will plow right through this dungeon with little effort.

Lets say 1 guy has exotic MF gear and after the math is done the groups index is 115 and they run the same dungeon. They will still plow through it with little effort cause the content requires such a low index. The fact that 1 guy is wearing MF has almost 0 impact on the success of the run. That person is not being carried or being a burden to the party and that person is not leeching from the rest of the groups extra combat stats cause those stats aren’t needed to begin with. Heck, you could probably run through some of these dungeons naked and still complete them in a timely manner.

Now if this was a lvl 48 fractal where you would need an index of 120 then I agree that the 1 guy wearing MF in that particular party.

Julie Yann.5379:

Spiking peoples guns is easy in an MF thread. I just couldn’t resist trolling it a bit. You did read that right. The math don’t lie, 1 less combat stat makes the gear slightly less efficient in combat but with a little more concentration you can overcome that slight ineffectiveness. That’s what I meant by working harder to be as effective but in most content it doesn’t make a difference. Here is a rough example of why?

(This is just a theoretical method of calculating combat effectiveness in a party used to better explain what I believe most pro MF peeps are trying to say. If you want actual numbers you will have to do the work yourself.)

Take a party of non MF players with exotic gear, take into account their gear, skill level, familiarity of the dungeon, blood alcohol level, levels of fatigue, reflex speed, latency, etc. Apply numbers to each of those factors and add them up to get a combat effectiveness index. Lets say this party has an index of 125 and that particular dungeon they are running needs an index of 65 in order to have success (reasonably quick, not to many deaths/downs). A party with an index of 125 will plow right through this dungeon with little effort.

Lets say 1 guy has exotic MF gear and after the math is done the groups index is 115 and they run the same dungeon. They will still plow through it with little effort cause the content requires such a low index. The fact that 1 guy is wearing MF has almost 0 impact on the success of the run. That person is not being carried or being a burden to the party and that person is not leeching from the rest of the groups extra combat stats cause those stats aren’t needed to begin with. Heck, you could probably run through some of these dungeons naked and still complete them in a timely manner.

Now if this was a lvl 48 fractal where you would need an index of 120 then I agree that the 1 guy wearing MF in that particular party.

Why is it that people seem to believe that when I disagree with them, that I don’t understand their argument. Allow me to post my rebuttal

MF benefits not a single person, except the wearer. This is self-evident.

MF comes at the cost of a combat related stat. This is self-evident.

If you are wearing a MF gear set/rune set, you are not capable of the same combat effectiveness, if you were in gear that replaced MF with a combat stat. This too, is self-evident.

All other factors being equal, MF decreases combat effectiveness. This is downright axiomatic.

If you wish to dispute thes facts, the burden of proof is on you. I get the argument that the pro-MF crowd has put forward, but their argument isn’t even an argument. It’s a theory based on one or more of the following falsehoods:

1. MF users are so skilled, they make up for any loss of capability.
2. MF users are all more skilled than non-MFusers.
3. MF gearsets are just as good as any non-MF gear set.
4. If somebody calls MF selfish, calling them intolerant nullifies their argument.

Which brings me to my problem with your index:

Not all dungeons will be at such a low index, nor will all groups have such a high index. At which point, party comp, skill level, & gear become controlling factors. Party comp is under the control of the person who forms the group & is obvious to everyone. Skill level is more nebulous, and can only be evaluated by observation over time. Additionally, it’s not obvious to anyone, until demonstrated. Lastly, gear is solely under the control of the individual player. There is no gear check system, and there’s no way to prevent dishonesty when pinging gear, as you yourself have declared. Furthermore, there’s no incentive for people to be honest.

As a result, your assumed index of 125 versus 65 may more commonly be 95 versus 90 or even 85 versus 105(isn’t making up numbers fun?).

Furthermore, just because the run was successful, doesn’t mean the MF usere wasn’t leeching. This however, is a point of view that is open to debate and may be safely disregarded at this point.

My problem, at this point, has less to do with the fact that MF needs to change. The Devs have said they’re taking a look at it, and change is on the way. At this point, my problem stems more from the amount of fuzzy logic, deflection, and selective reading going on amongst the pro-MF crowd. Only one person has made an effort to test the facts of MF ingame, & he needs a bigger sample size before the results are usable. Since the cause of my aggravation can be summed up as, “someone is wrong on the internet,” I will not be responding to this thread any longer. If someone has some proof that they think will change my mind, feel free to PM it to me.

tinymurder.5791:

All other factors being equal, MF decreases combat effectiveness. This is downright axiomatic.

Potential effectiveness. Potential.

Nobody says that we should always wear the best stats. Nobody that matters that is.

1. MF users are so skilled, they make up for any loss of capability.
2. MF users are all more skilled than non-MFusers.

Not necesarilly. Not all, not everone. Not inheritly. No.

A skilled zerker is better in combat than skilled explorer because of stats. A skilled explorer is better in combat than average zerker because of skill.

3. MF gearsets are just as good as any non-MF gear set.

Yes. See, MF is a stat, not for combat but a stat nontheless. Therefore it is effective in a way zerker is not.

It depends on what goal you are pursuing.
-If the goal is to finish a dungeon and get the end reward than consider that they are achieving the same thing as non MF users with less effective stats. They are capable of doing the same thing with less.
-If the goal is to kite a mob while others does something else than zerker is as useful as explorer.
-If the goal is to kill a mob/boss as fast as possible than yes, they are less efficient.
-If the goal is to finish the dungeon as fast as possible than yes they are slowing you down a bit. But since the AS FAST AS POSSIBLE directly corresposnds with damage only, A guy with toughness/vitality is slowing you down as well. And when a zerker goes down because of his low deffense he is slowing the party too. That is why is skill more important than stats and effectiveness in party CAN NOT be measured only by stats. You need both but Skill is more than stats. Also, in this AS FAST AS POSSIBLE scenario an explorer is more stats efficient towards the goal than vit/tough build.

Since a goal to complete a dungeon requires multiple sub-goals one set of gear is not necesarilly better than the other. Also people run dungeons for their own goals and these goals becomes sub-goals of the one goal that all are after – to finish a dungeon.

Five explorers will most likely finish the dungeon slowly than five zerkers and zerkers have lesser chance of dying because they kill mobs faster but noone says the explorers are going to die because it is just a chance not something that is stated. Also the zerkers could all wipe 10 times and decide to quit the run. You never know.

I agree that MF gear has less combat effectiveness but overall PERFORMANCE CAN NOT BE JUDGED ONLY BY STATS.

MF users are not inheritly selfish. Not all of em. They didn´t decide that they are going to leech of you. They decide that they are going to play as well as possible in gear they chosed to play with because the gear fits their sub-goals.

If you want to just finish a dungeon noone is leaching of you.
If you want a speed run than you have to state it and at that point if it is written somewhere and MF guy joins you and lie about his gear than yes, he is selfish because he decided he wants to leach of you. BUT not in regular casual party they are not. Also in such case different stats users are selfishly leaching from you as well.

MF gear was not created with the purpose of leaching from other people. People AKA humans make selfish decisions. Just wearing the gear doesn´t make you selfish. The gear helps you to complete your sub-goal within the game. If you choose zerker gear than your goal is damage in trade of other stats. A drop/loot is a goal as well as is your damage output.

In the end, the ultimate goal is to ENJOY the game. YOU choose the way how such a goal is achieved for YOURSELF.

Pointy.9308:

In the end, the ultimate goal is to ENJOY the game. YOU choose the way how such a goal is achieved for YOURSELF.

Yes, that is true. it ias also true, that in dungeons, MF-wearer’s enjoyment is achieved at the cost of enjoyment of others.

If magic find gear was actually useful, than those who got it will have received enough drops to re-purchase the armor many times over. That means they received in their investment.

I don’t really find that it works from my own experience. I know this isn’t scientific, but I for ~50 hours after hitting level 80, I was wearing all magic find gear with pirate runes, platinum orbs I think. My drops were pretty meh then. I then changed it to 0 magic find, and my drops didn’t change at all. I went and sold all my mats from the bank and I did not have a lot of T6 mats to sell, so I know I didn’t build up on those. It seems my RNG wasn’t great. Moral of the story? RNG >>>>>>> Magic Find. I am definitely in the camp that killing stuff faster > +MF.

I don’t really care what people wear when I am in a dungeon with them though. What they wear is up to them. I just think they are doing no one a favour (including themselves) when going in with Magic Find sets.

tinymurder.5791:

munkiman.3068:

tinymurder.5791:

None of that, however, has anything to do with my post. MF users seem to be bothered by the attitude of non-MF users in dungeon groups. My post was askinf why not form your own, MF-friendly groups? Your response and the responses of others, unsurprisingly, does not address this point.

Oh well, I didn’t figure I’d get any takers. Science can wait, I guess.

A group of us did just that. It took about 3 minutes longer to complete Molten Foundry at a net gain of about 1-1.5g (across the team, not individually) using a full MF set on the same composition of professions. Hardly worth arguing over. Tougher dungeons however would be much longer i suppose.

The stat seems basically useless to me, “RNG” is pretty kitten in the game and that boost of MF gear just doesn’t seem to help much at all. I mean it works, but it’s hardly worth the sacrifice for most content.

Thank you, thank you, a thousand times thank you. I could have sworn my words were falling on deaf ears. So to speak.

So, was this a group you regularly run with? Familiar people, good communication, etc? Did the increase of time seem to be directly linked to the decrease in damage, or a decrease in survivability? Please, let me know if you decide to try any more experiments.

Yes, it was a guild group all on vent, we just decided to test the theory and we’ve run that dungeon several times together. The added time i think came from not getting the troll spawn (ember spawn instead) and there was a few extra deaths there. I’m pretty sure a less experienced group would take a higher hit in overall time.

In order to accurately gauge something like this would most likely require several runs with and without MF gear. But overall, nothing seemed any harder with MF gear.

I think your going about this all wrong…..the idea that magic find on gear is selfish or not.
There is an easy fix to this without changing any gear stat’s.

Just add “Combat Rating” into the game much like in DCUO.
A number that is a total of all your gear and mod’s……gems,sigil,runes,…etc.

You could not get into a dungone of any kind ….fractols including….if you don’t meet the “CR”…….

Of course other players would still not be able to see this stat all they should care about is that you have gear over what is required to enter the dungeon.

Also with having CR’s requirments to enter dungeons, areanet could easy twick things and adjust those numbers….after coming up with the base line for gears.

Tony.6028:

I spent a lot of time on this chart, to catch you all up:

You’re my flocking hero!

The proper solution to MF is very obvious and quite simple:

The stat should be partially shared in a party. The exact ratio could be debated, but for the sake of simplicity let’s go with 50/50. Anytime you’re in a party, you get 50% of your MF plus 50% of your party’s averaged MF. That way, it’s not 100% socialized/diluted but you aren’t totally screwing everyone else over either.

More importantly, it’s a fix that doesn’t require massive overhauls to current itemization that will inevitably kitten a lot of people off as a lot of people like MF gear and it does add an interesting option to your gearing.

Also, Tony, I loved your chart.

Its not an issue of Magic find, its an issue of RNG. GET RID OF IT!

Tony.6028:

I spent a lot of time on this chart, to catch you all up:

Wow…that really sums up the whole argument nicely….well done

Flissy.4093:

This is what ArenaNet Game Director Colin Johanson has to say about the matter:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Some fun ideas in here, we’re also actively discussing ways on how we’d best like to alleviate having to make players choose between having better stats, or using magic find. It’s not a choice that’s great for game play and there isn’t really anything that fun about it, even more so when group composition is taken into account.

[Flame wall: Initiated!]

Magic find is a bad stat. This is not news to many, and many others refuse to accept it. I’m here to draw the line and briefly explain some of the reasons why it is bad.

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Where is it good?
I will admit, Magic Find is actually good and I recommend to use it in some situations. I will list these situations below:

• Large scale events, such as many Cursed Shore events. This is due to them being “mass tag” events.

And thus ends that list.

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Why is it bad for solo play?
Simple – You’re giving up offensive potential for an increased drop rate on certain items. So why is this bad in solo play?

Also simple – less kills per hour - Less kills per hour = less loot per hour. Counter-productive isn’t it?

While it wastes time in solo play, it only wastes your own time, which you are, of course, entitled to.

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Why is it bad in group play?
This is the real issue with Magic Find and a sole reason it should not be in the game…

The person using Magic Find gear contributes the least, but get’s the best reward.

Why does this make sense? A huge design flaw.

You are giving up offensive potential and wasting time. You are not only wasting your time, you are also wasting your groups. Wasting other players’ time is selfish & rude. So ArenaNet promote selfish play.

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What can be done about it in group play?
I’m bordering into suggestions here, but I’ll list a few methods to prevent selfish use of this stat:

• Allow the other player’s to be aware when someone in their group is using Magic Find gear, through a visual such as a boon listing how much Magic Find they currently have.
  — While a lot of player’s are against “elitism” in gear checking, as I stated earlier the person using Magic Find gear contributes the least, but get’s the best reward. Nobody wants to be a losing end of that, so those players deserve to know when someone is wasting their time for a selfish gain.

• Make the entire party benefit from someone’s Magic Find in the dungeon.
  — For example, there are two people in the dungeon using Magic Find, one with 36%, the other with 110%. I propose that everybody has an effective 110% Magic Find in that dungeon. This could actually make Magic Find a GOOD stat for people who are not seeking speedy dungeon, but remaining fair as the whole group is penalized speed wise, but everybody benefits in terms of loot quality.
  — The worry for me here is it could lead people to feel like they need to use Magic Find so the whole group can benefit from it. This would mean you could easily get 3 Magic Find users in a group – one with 55%, one with 100%, and the other with 150%. You’d have 2 players gimping themselves for nobody’s benefit.
  — A few other players suggested the combined MF of the group to be shared instead, which is an equally – if not more – viable fix.
  ——-

TLDR; Magic Find is bad – don’t use it.

Since it is bad for the players and so many pages do bear that out, maybe Anet needs to come up with a better stat or make the stat mean something, finally.

I have a simple solution :

Delete the % MF on gear, only keep it on banner, buff and food.

Implement a new rule in the combat algorythm :
- up the % MF * dps i deal, great for fighter
- up the % MF * hit i receive, great for tanky
- up the % MF * health point i heal, great for healer

Implement this when your enter the combat mode, the current algo knows what you do, so… when out of combat just apply these new rules, and loot.

What s wrong with these rules ? I think it s the best way to go…

But i know the issue with that : if you are dps/tanky/healer ??
—> just calculate an average based on your dps/tougness/heal stuffs stats, find the ratio and apply it to the combat stats result

something like that : if your are strong dps and a low toughness, if during the combat you don’t dps but take damage, you got a low % MF bonus when looting.
that s mean you must play your role/class better ^^ excellent for gameplay