Guild Wars 2

I really miss playing a tank like character that can offer some decent damage reduction, or offer some sustainability to keep health pools from bottoming out. I’ve got 3 80s, a Necro, Gaurdian, and Ranger.

Reapers great and all but I’m not sure how much extra healing I offer with the blood trait line, it would also be cool if there were a way to transfer conditions to minions through Death Magic for the whole party as well but I’m not sure that’s possible; still doesn’t have that good ole tank feel though.

I’m frankly not aware how a Druid really works other than it heals supposedly.

Gaurdian my old main I had hoped I could tank with but there are no one hand shield options that would work that way, I suppose there’s per a protection with the Hammer but what else can I consistently offer for defensive support?

I asked in guild once regarding Gaurdian and I was just told equip a Staff for Might and a Speed Buff ( that’s just depressing).

I’m probably just playing the wrong game.

Try an auramancer maybe.

Chances are. This game chose not to go for the well known trinity of tank, dps and heal classes. Of course at the time of release the endgame was basically 5 dungeons which were more about your ability to press dodge and ressing your team mates quick enough than any actual skills on your skill bar and the legendary grind for legendary weapons.

Of course ArenaNet will tell you that the whole game is endgame but you don’t need to be level 80 for that so it’s kinda true but also kinda not.

Now the game has a dungeon which uses a set of fractals that it randomizes and then you can do them at ever increasing levels of difficulty, kinda like games like tetris. It’s how GW2 has dealt with not having the trinity.

Now that there is raid content we see something interesting. Certain classes with certain abilities are preferred over others. So although there is no trinity of heal, dps and tank the problem they wanted to avoid is coming, just with different roles. The warrior class can be seen as DPS in other games, meaning there’s too many of them and often get a no because there are already enough of them and they want specific other classes.

I won’t call myself an expert here, this is all based on what I’ve read and heard from other players, but it seems that as soon as the game started having more serious endgame content the same type of issues came into play that trinity games do (like not being accepted in groups because dps slots are filled and waiting an hour to get a tank etc.).

So if you are thinking in terms of tank, heal and dps…yes, this is definitely the wrong game for you. I just play it casually for the same reason. I’ve done the core dungeons but never set foot in fractals or the raid, though I might give the raid a go just for the heck of it, but I can’t really be bothered in this game. It’s just a bit of casual fun for me between other games and for that it suits me just fine.

My guardian is probably my favourite class at the moment because it does rather well as a dragon hunter in the newer HoT zones. For me it’s the class that has a good mix of survivability and great aoe dps to kill things like pocket raptors rather quickly. I would prefer my necromancer to be my favourite but even though it’s still pretty awesome it doesn’t kill nearly as quickly as my guardian and I need that killing speed to keep those zones interesting. I hate running around all the time dodging the enemies because I just get annoyed by the normal mob fights, so my guardian does that much better for me.

But yeh, it seems a bit odd because this game isn’t entirely solo friendly, particularly at the higher level zones but it’s more fun as a solo game because you don’t need to team up for events, except if you want to find a meta as I learned, then the LFG tool is handy, but after doing certain meta’s 10 times, I wonder what’s next. So I don’t plan on playing this game long term, but just from time to time in a casual manner.

Can you give an example of another class from another game that fits your description?

Reason I ask is your question seems misdirected. A tank in the classic sense is about damage mitigation and aggro control. When you talk about dps, healing and defensive support, that’s not necessarily part of a tank’s job or abilities. And is it in context of open world, raids, wvw, or some other game type?

If what you mean is dps with survivability in general, warrior and reaper are the classes that come to my mind.

Btw, whoever told you to go staff guardian was probably trolling you.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

I hoped that Guardian would be like a WoW Protection Paladin

This is what he said in another thread.

Objectively speaking you can “tank” with any of the 9 professions of the game, all of them have the tools to be pretty resilient to incoming damage. The real difference with other game is that you don’t have any skill to hold aggro and you won’t have a dedicated healer that will be able to watch your back and maintain by himself your health.

Your health management must first be done by you and secondly done by group joint effort through various mean. Your group may be able to provide you with low health constant regeneration as well as some low burst heal (well now there is revenant’s ventari and the ranger’s druid spec that slightly step out of these boundaries).

I respect that. But i wish we will never get tanking in gw2, it is the reason i left rune of magic in the first place.

I just read up on Metabattle, looks like there’s a Guardian build that provides a steady stream of healing and permanent protection, so I assume if you’re on trash you just pop mace 2, swap to Hammer and auto until your first targets dead then swap to the next target and back to Mace/Shield then Mace 2 + 3, a few seconds later Shield skills to keep the protection up then swap back to Hammer.

That’s close enough to me, offer up some permanent damage reduction, steady stream of constant health, guess I just have to study up on my utilities to give more support.

Guardian can tank very well in many instances, they’re just not allowed to because it’s on meta fotm. As for aggro holding, isn’t it just boosting protection stat?

A Guardian took over in a raid very successfully here the other day, but nobody wanted to speak about that… like it never was supposed to happen. It was like peoples brain threw a meta syntax error message.

Overall I’m with Gehenna on this one.

Funny though that this is one of the few MMOs where it’s OK to be a warrior or guardian and actually DPS only. That was always a complain in holy trinity games. “Oh why am I forced to tank!!” lol.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

I’m probably just playing the wrong game.

The game is good, it’s just the combat system that’s poor.

onevstheworld.2419:

If what you mean is dps with survivability in general, warrior and reaper are the classes that come to my mind.

These can do a little tanking in PvE, but they aren’t proper tanks in the classical sense. They can’t hold aggro and can’t defend anybody should they lose aggro.

Btw, whoever told you to go staff guardian was probably trolling you.

Staff guardian is WvW tank.

Svarty.8019:

The game is good, it’s just the combat system that’s poor.

This mmo that has the best combat system in an mmo just doesnt have avery good combat system.

GBEW.5947:

Svarty.8019:

The game is good, it’s just the combat system that’s poor.

This mmo that has the best combat system in an mmo just doesnt have avery good combat system.

… and there’s no contradiction in your statement.

Play ESO (Elder Scrolls Online) if you want tanking. Best tanking in any mmorpg. It doesn’t matter what class you are, you can tank as any class, with the right gear, stats and skills.

Sorcerer tank? Yes, no problem!
Nightblade tank? Yes, no problem!
Dragonknight tank? Yes, no problem!
Templar tank? Yes, no problem!

And you can tank as any class in GW2, but you can’t taunt or keep aggro like in other mmorpgs with the holy trinity formula. You sure can mitigate damage though as any of the classes.

It would be interesting with a Daredvil tank build that focuses on evading and dodging.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

I really miss playing a tank like character that can offer some decent damage reduction, or offer some sustainability to keep health pools from bottoming out. I’ve got 3 80s, a Necro, Gaurdian, and Ranger.

Reapers great and all but I’m not sure how much extra healing I offer with the blood trait line, it would also be cool if there were a way to transfer conditions to minions through Death Magic for the whole party as well but I’m not sure that’s possible; still doesn’t have that good ole tank feel though.

I’m frankly not aware how a Druid really works other than it heals supposedly.

Gaurdian my old main I had hoped I could tank with but there are no one hand shield options that would work that way, I suppose there’s per a protection with the Hammer but what else can I consistently offer for defensive support?

I asked in guild once regarding Gaurdian and I was just told equip a Staff for Might and a Speed Buff ( that’s just depressing).

I’m probably just playing the wrong game.

I’m with you. I miss good tanking, I also miss good heal support roles, good non heal support roles, good disruption roles, good cc roles… This is a dps lovers game, and Anet did a great job of building that, but this game sorely needs to improve professions so we can build for various good quality roles within professions.

Played coh for a long time and I can tell you that each archetype was capable of damage PLUS filled a role… Now if arenanet would blow up professions and really dig deep to make multiple great roles to build within each profession, they would have the best fantasy class and combat system of any mmo. They would also be able to evolve and improve pve combat encounters and really add a new level of gameplay to pvp (wvw and spvp) modes.

no the game doesnt need this. Sorry.

I played WoW for years and tanking was my favorite role. Nearly half the classes were capable of tanking and all of them had a unique feel (although my personal favorite was brewmaster monk!).

All credit to WoW for refining these class roles. But this isn’t WoW. GW2’s combat system is different in nearly every way, yet I don’t find myself missing tanking as it existed in WoW. The fact is they don’t need it here. They have their own thing going and it works!

AliamRationem.5172:

I played WoW for years and tanking was my favorite role. Nearly half the classes were capable of tanking and all of them had a unique feel (although my personal favorite was brewmaster monk!).

All credit to WoW for refining these class roles. But this isn’t WoW. GW2’s combat system is different in nearly every way, yet I don’t find myself missing tanking as it existed in WoW. The fact is they don’t need it here. They have their own thing going and it works!

No, it doesn’t really work. The mostly damage meta has been bad for the game and the skills and balance team know it too.

I’d suggest listening to the first few minutes of Irenio talking about profession stuff.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ZHhJQn0B8

The devs know the way they created professions has led to an unhealthy state and HoT stuff was a first step to make improvements, but they know there is a long way to go.

I’ve always hating tanking. Always. Tanking, to me, is the worst thing that’s happened to the MMO genre.

I mean the typical tank and spank scenario is you have a tank, who draws all the aggro and stands there, while being healed by a healer, while everyone else takes it down. What part of this is not completely contrived.

I’m sure Lord of the Rings would have been a much better book if Boromir stood there tanking while Gandalf healed him, and no one was actually in any danger.

Tanking is ludicrous. It’s a mechanic that should not even exist. Yes, it’s lovely to not be able to die. But you know, that sort of defeats the whole purpose of playing a game in which you can die.

Vayne.8563:

I’ve always hating tanking. Always. Tanking, to me, is the worst thing that’s happened to the MMO genre.

I mean the typical tank and spank scenario is you have a tank, who draws all the aggro and stands there, while being healed by a healer, while everyone else takes it down. What part of this is not completely contrived.

I’m sure Lord of the Rings would have been a much better book if Boromir stood there tanking while Gandalf healed him, and no one was actually in any danger.

Tanking is ludicrous. It’s a mechanic that should not even exist. Yes, it’s lovely to not be able to die. But you know, that sort of defeats the whole purpose of playing a game in which you can die.

It’s just a role. It’s the ultimate protector role. You keep your party safe, as long as you do that job right. boss + adds can be fun to manage, do it well and you save everyone. If they also do their role well. Your comment is ludicrous. There are many reasons holy trinity games have been as popular as they have, people being able to choose a role they want to play in what is advertised as a RPG game is one of them – obviously.

Doing that role well and being good at it, as well as continuing improving it with stats, gear, and further new content is of course rewarding.

Sometimes I miss this as well .. then I remember how much I don’t being asked to tank EVERYTHING.

Tempest auramancer tanking is easy as well. Can heal the party, continually apply protection, and Frost auras give a ten percent damage reduction to allies. Additionally, apply vigor and regen on every aura for even more sustain as they can Dodge more and passively be healed. Really fun and some of the best tanking I have ever done in raids.

Vayne.8563:

I’ve always hating tanking. Always. Tanking, to me, is the worst thing that’s happened to the MMO genre.

I mean the typical tank and spank scenario is you have a tank, who draws all the aggro and stands there, while being healed by a healer, while everyone else takes it down. What part of this is not completely contrived.

I’m sure Lord of the Rings would have been a much better book if Boromir stood there tanking while Gandalf healed him, and no one was actually in any danger.

Tanking is ludicrous. It’s a mechanic that should not even exist. Yes, it’s lovely to not be able to die. But you know, that sort of defeats the whole purpose of playing a game in which you can die.

This right here.

Vayne.8563:

I’ve always hating tanking. Always. Tanking, to me, is the worst thing that’s happened to the MMO genre.

I mean the typical tank and spank scenario is you have a tank, who draws all the aggro and stands there, while being healed by a healer, while everyone else takes it down. What part of this is not completely contrived.

I’m sure Lord of the Rings would have been a much better book if Boromir stood there tanking while Gandalf healed him, and no one was actually in any danger.

Tanking is ludicrous. It’s a mechanic that should not even exist. Yes, it’s lovely to not be able to die. But you know, that sort of defeats the whole purpose of playing a game in which you can die.

I completely agree. It was done in D&D because it made the most sense on paper, and because it also made the game easier to design and play for people to get into. It’s not because it’s good design. Actually, most game designers will blatantly say it’s horrible design when looked at objectively. But it was kept alive through tradition.

And that’s just coming from the perspective of assuming the groups are easy to get.

The reasoning behind why I think tank/support players are upset is because that role simply isn’t needed, and it’s actually slower to find parties willing to play by the trinity ruleset than rushing things down with DPS builds.

In fact, they’re experiencing the exact same problem DPS players have with traditional trinity games; wait 5-6 hours for rare a chance of a party to beat the content. Meanwhile, tanks and supports would be scooped up instantly, because an overwhelming majority of players have more fun playing DPS, a fact cited many times.

The trinity itself is a hard-enforced optimization. You don’t bring a party of all-DPS to kill a boss in traditional games, because it wouldn’t be effective. In GW2, the players define the criteria for optimization in how to beat content. The concept of all-DPS is just a less-enforced optimization model; the trinity encourages the same and more restrictions.

Nothing is stopping players from being able to perform traditional tanking roles in GW2. The stats, gear, and builds are there. The players are the only ones who define it otherwise. Don’t like the player-driven convention? Look to find players who like trinity style and join up with them.

DeceiverX.8361:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve always hating tanking. Always. Tanking, to me, is the worst thing that’s happened to the MMO genre.

I mean the typical tank and spank scenario is you have a tank, who draws all the aggro and stands there, while being healed by a healer, while everyone else takes it down. What part of this is not completely contrived.

I’m sure Lord of the Rings would have been a much better book if Boromir stood there tanking while Gandalf healed him, and no one was actually in any danger.

Tanking is ludicrous. It’s a mechanic that should not even exist. Yes, it’s lovely to not be able to die. But you know, that sort of defeats the whole purpose of playing a game in which you can die.

I completely agree. It was done in D&D because it made the most sense on paper, and because it also made the game easier to design and play for people to get into. It’s not because it’s good design. Actually, most game designers will blatantly say it’s horrible design when looked at objectively. But it was kept alive through tradition.

And that’s just coming from the perspective of assuming the groups are easy to get.

The reasoning behind why I think tank/support players are upset is because that role simply isn’t needed, and it’s actually slower to find parties willing to play by the trinity ruleset than rushing things down with DPS builds.

In fact, they’re experiencing the exact same problem DPS players have with traditional trinity games; wait 5-6 hours for rare a chance of a party to beat the content. Meanwhile, tanks and supports would be scooped up instantly, because an overwhelming majority of players have more fun playing DPS, a fact cited many times.

The trinity itself is a hard-enforced optimization. You don’t bring a party of all-DPS to kill a boss in traditional games, because it wouldn’t be effective. In GW2, the players define the criteria for optimization in how to beat content. The concept of all-DPS is just a less-enforced optimization model; the trinity encourages the same and more restrictions.

Nothing is stopping players from being able to perform traditional tanking roles in GW2. The stats, gear, and builds are there. The players are the only ones who define it otherwise. Don’t like the player-driven convention? Look to find players who like trinity style and join up with them.

And it wasnt really even done in DnD because nothing forced mobs to attack a “tank.” The toughest characters, defensively, in DnD could be the mage type while some of the best DPS could be put out by the “healer.” The melee character in the heaviest armor with the largest health pool could very well be the group’s main DPS while being “squishy,” compared to the group’s casters.

Any GM that had his monsters ignore the real threat to focus on the group’s most invulnerable character wasnt worth playing with.

Swagger.1459:

No, it doesn’t really work. The mostly damage meta has been bad for the game and the skills and balance team know it too.

I’d suggest listening to the first few minutes of Irenio talking about profession stuff.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ZHhJQn0B8

The devs know the way they created professions has led to an unhealthy state and HoT stuff was a first step to make improvements, but they know there is a long way to go.

The proliferation of crowd control has lead to boring immob-to-death crap that is remeniscent of DAoC’s shameful minute-long AoE stun/mez. Follow that up with massive damage spike because when you stun someone you don’t need any defense. Combine that with confusing clone/stealth target removers and is it any wonder new people hate competitive modes?

In that video, Irenio talks the good talk but HoT has just made CC godlike and damage spikes even worse.

Svarty.8019:

Swagger.1459:

No, it doesn’t really work. The mostly damage meta has been bad for the game and the skills and balance team know it too.

I’d suggest listening to the first few minutes of Irenio talking about profession stuff.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ZHhJQn0B8

The devs know the way they created professions has led to an unhealthy state and HoT stuff was a first step to make improvements, but they know there is a long way to go.

The proliferation of crowd control has lead to boring immob-to-death crap that is remeniscent of DAoC’s shameful minute-long AoE stun/mez. Follow that up with massive damage spike because when you stun someone you don’t need any defense. Combine that with confusing clone/stealth target removers and is it any wonder new people hate competitive modes?

In that video, Irenio talks the good talk but HoT has just made CC godlike and damage spikes even worse.

I understand the flaws with the class and combat systems btw, but you missed the point of discussion…

Tanking is more than just being able to take a hit, it’s about controlling the battle. If you can’t consistently direct enemies towards you, you’re not tanking. If you can’t resist the damage to a significant degree, you’re not tanking.

Some people love to suggest that any job can become a tank in GW2, but that’s not the case. The fact of the matter is that NO job can become a tank in GW2. Guardians are somewhat better than most, but they still have no means of keeping themselves targeted.

The fact that they’ve made this work is impressive, but I can understand the OP’s frustration. Classic GW had classes which could more effectively hold crowds, as well a dedicated healing class (monk). Without those, battles become more of a free-for-all, whether you’re in a party or not.

The only place in GW2 where tanking is an option is in raids. Necro is the go-to tank there, but guardians and druids also make good tanks. Honestly, in theory, every class can tank in raids as long as their toughness is at 1400, but in practice some classes are better at it than others.

You could try to play a support guardian build. You won’t be a tank, but you’ll give a lot of valuable defensive support to your raid team while also doing a good amount of DPS.

Vayne.8563:

I’ve always hating tanking. Always. Tanking, to me, is the worst thing that’s happened to the MMO genre.

I mean the typical tank and spank scenario is you have a tank, who draws all the aggro and stands there, while being healed by a healer, while everyone else takes it down. What part of this is not completely contrived.

Sounds like, dunno, 1990s. Trinity-based fights have evolved since then, you know? I can’t judge the GW2 raids, which seem to have moved back to trinity, but I can judge the rest of GW2’s PvE. And frankly, the combat system is by far inferior to games like Wildstar (although that one has massive other problems). The “dodge or die” principle, though usually not as pronounced as it once was, severely limits design options. Trinity may be contrived, but at least it allows to make fights much more complex and interesting.

Corvinus.8634:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve always hating tanking. Always. Tanking, to me, is the worst thing that’s happened to the MMO genre.

I mean the typical tank and spank scenario is you have a tank, who draws all the aggro and stands there, while being healed by a healer, while everyone else takes it down. What part of this is not completely contrived.

I’m sure Lord of the Rings would have been a much better book if Boromir stood there tanking while Gandalf healed him, and no one was actually in any danger.

Tanking is ludicrous. It’s a mechanic that should not even exist. Yes, it’s lovely to not be able to die. But you know, that sort of defeats the whole purpose of playing a game in which you can die.

It’s just a role. It’s the ultimate protector role. You keep your party safe, as long as you do that job right. boss + adds can be fun to manage, do it well and you save everyone. If they also do their role well. Your comment is ludicrous. There are many reasons holy trinity games have been as popular as they have, people being able to choose a role they want to play in what is advertised as a RPG game is one of them – obviously.

Doing that role well and being good at it, as well as continuing improving it with stats, gear, and further new content is of course rewarding.

That’s looking at things from a mechanics point of view, not an immersion point of view. Those who focus on mechanics can see roles any way they want. But I’ve read a whole lot of fantasy in my life, and there are very few hard and fast roles in fantasy.

Roles are, and have always been limiting. Even something like character classes in games like D&D (pen and paper) were simply game mechanics to maintain power. Magic users in D&D couldn’t use swords in the original game, even though Gandalf did. Why? Because if a magic user could use a sword, there’s be little benefit in becoming a warrior.

Later pen and paper games, like Runequest did away with the need for character classes. They were less contrived.

It’s okay to like tanking. But it’s not “just a role”. It’s a mechanic upon which entire areas of games were based. It was a REQUIRED role. That’s the real issue.

There’s a very big difference between being tanky and being a tank.

Equip all Settler’s gear, change your build to a condi build that incorporates self-heals, use superior runes of the undead…. and voila, you have a condi-tank. Works for most professions, but heavy-armor professions work best.

~EW

Vayne.8563:

I’ve always hating tanking. Always. Tanking, to me, is the worst thing that’s happened to the MMO genre.

I mean the typical tank and spank scenario is you have a tank, who draws all the aggro and stands there, while being healed by a healer, while everyone else takes it down. What part of this is not completely contrived.

I’m sure Lord of the Rings would have been a much better book if Boromir stood there tanking while Gandalf healed him, and no one was actually in any danger.

Tanking is ludicrous. It’s a mechanic that should not even exist. Yes, it’s lovely to not be able to die. But you know, that sort of defeats the whole purpose of playing a game in which you can die.

Passive tanking is horrible I agree, and too many games have poorly designed passive tank classes. But active tanking is another thing entirely. There is a big difference between a traditional tank that just sits there and everything targets him automatically because of his class, and he has the most health and armor and what I would call an active tank. An active tank would be one that has to constantly work to get the bosses’ attention and aggro, it has to be able to deal enough damage to keep aggro or have taunts available. Damage mitigation skills that he should know how to use when the Boss decides to attack another player (since no boss should keep aggro on the same character the whole fight, that’s boring) and more. It should be much more involved than most games make it out to be, which is why so many people have such a low perception of it.

Svarty.8019:

Staff guardian is WvW tank.

Ah… shows how much WvW I play then :P

onevstheworld.2419:

Can you give an example of another class from another game that fits your description?

Reason I ask is your question seems misdirected. A tank in the classic sense is about damage mitigation and aggro control. When you talk about dps, healing and defensive support, that’s not necessarily part of a tank’s job or abilities. And is it in context of open world, raids, wvw, or some other game type?

If what you mean is dps with survivability in general, warrior and reaper are the classes that come to my mind.

Btw, whoever told you to go staff guardian was probably trolling you.

I can do that for you; full tank/shield/mitigation spec paladin in WoW was unkillable under all but the most extreme circumstances. It might take me 1/2 an hour to solo that huge mob (and it’s minions, and ads), but kitten, I could.

This game isn’t “innovative” with its purported character classes, but rather simply lazy, and grossly limited.

I find it amusing that their response to requests for “challenging” content was simply to make the expansion a giant maze with OP mobs, and horribly gated mat farm simulation.

Swagger.1459:

AliamRationem.5172:

I played WoW for years and tanking was my favorite role. Nearly half the classes were capable of tanking and all of them had a unique feel (although my personal favorite was brewmaster monk!).

All credit to WoW for refining these class roles. But this isn’t WoW. GW2’s combat system is different in nearly every way, yet I don’t find myself missing tanking as it existed in WoW. The fact is they don’t need it here. They have their own thing going and it works!

No, it doesn’t really work. The mostly damage meta has been bad for the game and the skills and balance team know it too.

I’d suggest listening to the first few minutes of Irenio talking about profession stuff.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ZHhJQn0B8

The devs know the way they created professions has led to an unhealthy state and HoT stuff was a first step to make improvements, but they know there is a long way to go.

Hope fully they will also clue in how the guild changes (coupled with mat farming nerfs, etc) really shafted a lot of people, and have discouraged general generosity and interaction, too.

Vayne.8563:

That’s looking at things from a mechanics point of view, not an immersion point of view. Those who focus on mechanics can see roles any way they want. But I’ve read a whole lot of fantasy in my life, and there are very few hard and fast roles in fantasy.

Roles are, and have always been limiting. Even something like character classes in games like D&D (pen and paper) were simply game mechanics to maintain power. Magic users in D&D couldn’t use swords in the original game, even though Gandalf did. Why? Because if a magic user could use a sword, there’s be little benefit in becoming a warrior.

Later pen and paper games, like Runequest did away with the need for character classes. They were less contrived.

It’s okay to like tanking. But it’s not “just a role”. It’s a mechanic upon which entire areas of games were based. It was a REQUIRED role. That’s the real issue.

There’s a very big difference between being tanky and being a tank.

To each their own I guess. Everything has limits and where you see bigger limits in assigning roles, I see definition and purpose. And I could be wrong but I’ve seen people discuss raid content in GW2 and there it seems that it may not be tanks or healers but there are favoured classes that people require.

Now we can argue the difference between the game requiring something or players requiring something but the end result is the same. It may not be tanks that are required but there is class elitism going on there from what I can tell. It’s just the nature of the content.

SWTOR has a much better approach to it where all classes that can tank can also dps so you can choose and switch between those roles. Also tanking there is very different from what you described in your example of MMO tanking. Just to indicate that not all MMOs approach the trinity in the same way.

I quite like tanking there actually. Though I am primarily a healer. I quite enjoyed that in GW1 as well. Particularly a protection monk and yeah I miss real healer classes in GW2. That’s probably the main reason group content is unappealing to me in GW2.

GW2 combat system is based on 3 combat mechanics: Damage/Control/Support.
Every class has the responsibility to deal Damage while taking Control and Supporting themselves when they need too during actual combat. During group plays you need to coordinate Control with your team while Supporting each other as you contribute in dealing Damage while Moving and Dodging from incoming attack. The lack of trinity is what I like about this game. If you miss Tanking, you should play another game with a Tank class and come back to GW2 whenever you want to play something different again.

=) Good luck.

I don’t necessarily support the trinity, but I do support the concept of roles. I think of roles as rules of the game that players and AI must follow. They help organize and give structure to a game. Also, roles will always have limits, that’s why they’re roles. They will always restrict the player in some way. There’s nothing wrong with that. I think the problem people had with the trinity is that they restrict you too much.

I think of gw1 and they’ve got it right. You didn’t just have the trinity of tank, healer, dps, you also had a secondary profession to give your character more freedom in what you could do. The secondary gave you more freedom to supplement your character, not to supercede it. Gw1 had a good system.

DeceiverX.8361:

I completely agree. It was done in D&D because it made the most sense on paper, and because it also made the game easier to design and play for people to get into. It’s not because it’s good design. Actually, most game designers will blatantly say it’s horrible design when looked at objectively. But it was kept alive through tradition.

D&D didn’t have a Trinity, that’s strictly an MMO thing. It doesn’t make sense at all, if you were in a life-or-death fight, who would you attack? The heavily armored guy with a short stick or the fellow in flimsy robes throwing balls of fiery death? Whenever fighting enemies intelligent enough to recognize the difference between warriors and mages, it was generally the rule that anyone capable of attacking the mages would do so, the fighters job was to intercept them and kill them quickly so the mages didn’t die. I remember this because I liked playing mages, and spent the latter half of many battles lying on the ground trying not to bleed to death.

Maybe it’s different now, but in the first two editions at least, enemies didn’t just pile on the armored guy and chip away at his hit points like mosquitoes on an elephant. If your party was outnumbered it was hard to protect the weakest members. And low level mages were definitely the weakest, I never heard the term “glass cannon” back then but beginning mages were glass slingshots, with maybe 2-3 offensive spells and dagger or staff for melee combat. And one or two hits could down them, so enemies often took out the weakest/most dangerous targets first.

I tried that Guardian DPS build today while working on the first episode of season 3, even with the mace symbol down and perms protection I was melting like butter against magic crazed White Mantle. I’m wondering if I have to replace my gear with Clerics to make it work or if that magic resistance mastery doesn’t kick in until after I progress the story even though I’ve got it on my Reaper?

I can accept a compromise that would help fulfill my protector identity where I can offer up perma protection with a steady stream of heals. Now my big concern is why is my Gaurdian melting like butter in Bloodstone Fen while my Reaper for what ever reason seems immortal?

Oldirtbeard.9834:

I can accept a compromise that would help fulfill my protector identity where I can offer up perma protection with a steady stream of heals. Now my big concern is why is my Gaurdian melting like butter in Bloodstone Fen while my Reaper for what ever reason seems immortal?

Necromancer is based on the idea of a life leeching (self sustaining) tank and is one of the easiest professions to play because of it. If you play wells, it basically does offer perma protection with a steady stream of heals (blood’s vampiric traits).

The guardian melting is likely due to your sense of playing a necromancer, which has a much larger health pool. A guardian has a low base health whereas a necromancer has a high base health, plus a secondary bar from shroud which also halves damage taken. With HoT, enemies have been balanced around having high damage but low health, so they can easily tear through the lower health professions, dealing 50%+ of your health in a single hit. As a ~12k elementalist for example, I can get 1 shot at the start of the last episode, when the group of veterans spawn. In comparison, to a high health profession like the necromancer, those deadly hits are a lot less, like 15%, which you’re going to casually regen back through various leeches.

If you wanted to play a you can’t kill me tank, but be practically useless in everything else, that’s a nomad’s full defense shield warrior.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

I tried that Guardian DPS build today while working on the first episode of season 3, even with the mace symbol down and perms protection I was melting like butter against magic crazed White Mantle. I’m wondering if I have to replace my gear with Clerics to make it work or if that magic resistance mastery doesn’t kick in until after I progress the story even though I’ve got it on my Reaper?

I can accept a compromise that would help fulfill my protector identity where I can offer up perma protection with a steady stream of heals. Now my big concern is why is my Gaurdian melting like butter in Bloodstone Fen while my Reaper for what ever reason seems immortal?

I actually preferred playing my guardian through the story as it was more powerful than my Necromancer or Mesmer. I use the Dragon hunter specialization and use a bow and greatsword in combination with a bunch of traps. The bow itself doesn’t do a ton of damage but it’s just tactically useful to have a ranged weapon. When I run into some mobs I have to kill I gather them together and use all my aoe’s. The greatsword has 2 aoe abilities and with 3 traps added normal mobs die rather quickly. With tougher mobs, well I either avoid them when I can regardless of which class it is or you have to use the most important skill any class has and that’s dodge.

Just standing still and taking the damage is not really what this game is meant to do. Now, I am not an expert in GW2 classes and this comes from a more casual point of view. I know there are specific builds that work really well in certain ways, but it should come sort of natural from my point of view as well. The reality is that aoe is a great tool in this game and the guardian with traps is just very good at aoe close range from my experience and that’s why it’s become my main character to play instead of my Necromancer, who also has a lot of aoe skills but doesn’t seem to be able to kill as quickly with them as my Guardian.

I’ve seen some of the guides on dulfy.net for example but you need a lot of patience to read them. They’re very thorough but it’s a long read.

One of the reasons why this game is so fun and fast-paced is the missing tanking (and healing of said tank) in the game design. I think I understand the thread creator a little, but this tank/healer combination is not only just dumb design-wise (imagine yourself standing there in your armor, getting spanked and clubbed to mush by tall monsters, trolls and Mordremoth beasts while being nibbled to death by mini raptors – and all you do is smile and wait for the healer to heal you and call this a good day) but also very, very stalling the gameplay somewhat.

Coming from FF14, I had just bad experiences.

a) Tanks were a very low populated group. Meaning: Slow waiting times for instances bad players picking this role up in attempt to shine despite they don’t like this gameplay and caused flames and mad beef because the tank didn’t meet the expectations upon entering the party.

b) A tank that starts a vote-kick against a easy-to-replace DPS player is usually never disagreed with, because if his votekick failed, he would left. So you had to decide DPS or the tank leaving. And thus the DPS had been kicked.

c) An aggro system/emnity system is a very, very unhealthy system. FF14 taught me that. As black mage, I did slow, but immense damage. This one skill often was enough to get me the aggro. Because of the design of “tanks protect”, all other classes were fragile. So basically, I got punished by design: Using skills caused much emnity, I became target #1, I got 2-shotted because I had not also rely on the tank, but also on the healer which rather healed the tank that was still getting spanked by 3 other mobs while I ran in circles. Fair enough, I also sometimes grab aggro, especially when nobody really wants to get aggro in group content. 2x thief’s unload and I am the new priority, but at least I can dodge/dash away, something in FF14 is not possible. If you have the aggro, you failed the (bad) system and you got to die.

d) Tanking often comes with said fragile non-tank players. The problem I have is that as super duper engame black mage (or archer or whatever DPS class you like, you name it) I am supposed to hide behind the tank. It’s embarrasing. “Hey, I just saved the world twice, but oh no, those spiders there, please protect meeeee!!!” and “Oh, please merci, dear healer, please do not be huffy and heal me, please do heaaall meee!”.

I do not want to hide behind the tanks to play. Or to pray my healer is not stoned at 3:00 in the morning..

No nonono. Let me do it on my own. I am a thief/engineer, and I have my own, class-specific ways to evade damage (or not) or to heal myself in a certain way. That is not only better design-wise, also for, uh, let’s call it immersion. Instead of being a one-trick pony (damage/healing/tanking) I can do it on my own “somehow”. I am an adventurer, right, so why would I not be able to defend myself a bit?

Various edits: Fixed the worst grammar mistakes. Today’s not my day for typing proper English I guess…

I think that while not having dedicated tank setups is a nice idea, we still need more differentiation. That is to say, maybe a Warrior ought to be a durable fighter, unstoppable, difficult to put down, but in turn deals low damage per second and low burst, but because they’re difficult to get out of your face or dead, their total damage adds up.

And so on. Baked in at a class level. not for typical tank / healer / DPS / buffer/ debuffer/ CCer setups, but to add some RPG-ness into it. Guardians as nearly invincible frontliners, constantly preventing damage on their allies, Warriors as unstoppable juggernauts, Thiefs as unpinnable fighters who punish straying from the team, Mesmers as unhittable illusionists who in turn cause very little real damage, Engineers as completely superior bombardment specialists who can cause a ridiculous amount of AE damage but very little pinpoint damage, and so on.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

That’s looking at things from a mechanics point of view, not an immersion point of view. Those who focus on mechanics can see roles any way they want. But I’ve read a whole lot of fantasy in my life, and there are very few hard and fast roles in fantasy.

Roles are, and have always been limiting. Even something like character classes in games like D&D (pen and paper) were simply game mechanics to maintain power. Magic users in D&D couldn’t use swords in the original game, even though Gandalf did. Why? Because if a magic user could use a sword, there’s be little benefit in becoming a warrior.

Later pen and paper games, like Runequest did away with the need for character classes. They were less contrived.

It’s okay to like tanking. But it’s not “just a role”. It’s a mechanic upon which entire areas of games were based. It was a REQUIRED role. That’s the real issue.

There’s a very big difference between being tanky and being a tank.

To each their own I guess. Everything has limits and where you see bigger limits in assigning roles, I see definition and purpose. And I could be wrong but I’ve seen people discuss raid content in GW2 and there it seems that it may not be tanks or healers but there are favoured classes that people require.

Now we can argue the difference between the game requiring something or players requiring something but the end result is the same. It may not be tanks that are required but there is class elitism going on there from what I can tell. It’s just the nature of the content.

SWTOR has a much better approach to it where all classes that can tank can also dps so you can choose and switch between those roles. Also tanking there is very different from what you described in your example of MMO tanking. Just to indicate that not all MMOs approach the trinity in the same way.

I quite like tanking there actually. Though I am primarily a healer. I quite enjoyed that in GW1 as well. Particularly a protection monk and yeah I miss real healer classes in GW2. That’s probably the main reason group content is unappealing to me in GW2.

They had that approach in Rift too. Many classes could play the role. But if you played one of those professions, because it was required, other people would insist you tank if you were good at it. Actually for me it was healing but it was the same thing.

At the end of the day, I ended up healing on my DPS cleric more than I did anything else. And I hated it.

And yes, there’s one major difference between a game requiring something and a community requiring it.

If the game requires it, you have to do it. You can always hook up with a group of like minded players if the game doesn’t though. Just like I have people that like to heal in my guild and I run dungeons with them, even though I know it would be more efficient if they ran zerker.

I’m happy they’re playing what they want. How could I do that if the game required everyone to DPS?

Carighan.6758:

I think that while not having dedicated tank setups is a nice idea, we still need more differentiation. That is to say, maybe a Warrior ought to be a durable fighter, unstoppable, difficult to put down, but in turn deals low damage per second and low burst, but because they’re difficult to get out of your face or dead, their total damage adds up.

And so on. Baked in at a class level. not for typical tank / healer / DPS / buffer/ debuffer/ CCer setups, but to add some RPG-ness into it. Guardians as nearly invincible frontliners, constantly preventing damage on their allies, Warriors as unstoppable juggernauts, Thiefs as unpinnable fighters who punish straying from the team, Mesmers as unhittable illusionists who in turn cause very little real damage, Engineers as completely superior bombardment specialists who can cause a ridiculous amount of AE damage but very little pinpoint damage, and so on.

That idea is just plain horrible. By design, GW2 is a game where everyone plays for himself on a very basic level. Even in group content, players first have to be self-sufficient and anything else is a bonus on top. In consequence, all of that has one prerequisite: Everyone needs to be able to deal substantial damage, which clashes with your ideas of class-level specialisations.

Having such specialisations below class level, maybe even more pronounced than they are now, is fine. But every class needs to have the choice whether it wants to be able to deal big damage or do something else. Which is, btw, an issue where mesmer sucks -.-

I think there is a lot of bias towards tanking because of what some games have done with it and some personal interpretations that I cannot agree with.

In basis when you go back to fantasy gaming like Dungeons and Dragons (no I don’t mean online, I mean the game with the books that came out before we had computers), the idea was that you went out as a group of adventurers ready to face battles with a variety of enemies and gaining loot to improve your character with better gear etc.

Already back then (yes I am that old) there were different classes with different roles. Why? Because it naturally made sense to offer people different roles. Some people liked to be in the thick of it and others preferred to stay at range or be the healer keeping people alive. But to make sure that different classes had a reason to be they were defined more specifically. So a wizard or magic user was the typical glass cannon with fire power but low hit points and armour values and would need to build up spells to get more survivability, but that would be at the cost of offensive spells. And guess what…when there was a group of Orcs that you ran into (or whichever enemy) then you would naturally put the guys in big armour on the front. To me, that’s the origin in short of tanking and there’s nothing strange about the whole concept of putting big armour on the front.

Of course computer games can have a very simplistic view on that but it did already make a clear link between the tank and healer so that made it team work. Now in some games the tank had very little to do but just stand there and take the damage. But in all fairness, the DPS would just stand there and DPS their fingers into oblivion just to reach some made up number in DPS to be the enrage timers. But it’s not unrealistic or bad design to have tank classes. How they are treated in an individual game could be very different and I do agree there are a lot of games that implemented the role poorly.

Also, MMOs generally have a good amount of tanks, but they don’t often go into the public LFG tools but stay in their guilds. Why? Because for example a lot of DPS are too lazy to learn to be a proper DPS which isn’t just about doing damage but also to avoid unnecessary damage and use utility skills like interrupts and well in general the average player isn’t ready for more challenging content, but still wants the rewards that come from it. They are often jealous of people who do put in effort and gain rewards that they also want without putting in the effort.

And there is the problem in that system. A lot of players are not actually good team players and can’t be bothered to learn their classes. By itself that’s fine but they feel they should be rewarded for showing up rather than being a skillful player. So the trinity system suffers greatly from this, simply because people are not willing to put into the effort. And you don’t even need to be the best but you do have to put in some effort. How else can it be challenging content?

To me that’s the biggest problem for any MMO is that there are a lot of players who feel entitled to rewards without putting in any effort. They feel they should get rewarded simply because they show up and this is the bane of group content.

GW2 did a lot I think the accommodate players. The way the implemented events for example I think was a great way to accommodate players. All you have to do is show up and participate and you get rewards. People could consider that fun, but it’s not really group content. It’s not about team work, it’s just a zerg (like WvW for example). But even dungeons were accommodating. Boss mechanics were simplistic and they just have hight hit points and you need to dodge circles and ress your team mates quickly. Actual skillful use of your individual classes was not needed but there was already a bit more teamwork involved.

Raiding is a different story and that’s why we see the typical things that happen in the trinity system come in again. It can’t be stopped unless game designers find a wildly different way to make challenging content. Not like the dungeons which you can beat with dodging and auto attack (I exaggerate a bit but it’s not far off) but actual challenging content where you need certain jobs to be done during boss fights. Because as soon as you need to assign people to do certain things they need to have the abilities to do so and that’s where the roles come in again.

I don’t think that you have to want challenging content, but the truth is that some people do and you can’t simply ignore that as a game developer unless you give alternatives that are interesting enough. I am not saying GW2 should have this trinity, but I am saying that the trinity also has positive sides, just like the GW2 approach also has negative sides to it. People have different preferences. If you don’t like the trinity approach that doesn’t make it bad or bad design, it makes it something that doesn’t work for you. Others do like it.

TL;DR: Role definition like in the trinity approach does have advantages, just like not having those roles. Also both options have disadvantages and for challenging group content role definition in whatever shape is needed. That’s why raid groups are showing the same type of behavior as games with a trinity.

I want a character that can stand and fight, go toe to toe with the bad guys instead of flipping and flopping and rolling and bouncing all over the place like a jumping bean on crack. I want to play characters like Luke Cage and Ben Grimm, but all GW2 offers is Batroc and Toad and heavy armor made of foam rubber.

kitten , I miss City of Heroes.

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

GW2 combat system is based on 3 combat mechanics: Damage/Control/Support.
Every class has the responsibility to deal Damage while taking Control and Supporting themselves when they need too during actual combat. During group plays you need to coordinate Control with your team while Supporting each other as you contribute in dealing Damage while Moving and Dodging from incoming attack. The lack of trinity is what I like about this game. If you miss Tanking, you should play another game with a Tank class and come back to GW2 whenever you want to play something different again.

=) Good luck.

/This

Whoever’s complaining about lack of a traditional MMO trinity in GW2 is playing the wrong game.

I loved playing the support/healer role (and the occasional tank) in traditional MMOs as well, but this is not one of those games. And I don’t miss it while playing GW2 because it’s not something I feel is missing.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

I really miss playing a tank like character that can offer some decent damage reduction, or offer some sustainability to keep health pools from bottoming out. I’ve got 3 80s, a Necro, Gaurdian, and Ranger.

Reapers great and all but I’m not sure how much extra healing I offer with the blood trait line, it would also be cool if there were a way to transfer conditions to minions through Death Magic for the whole party as well but I’m not sure that’s possible; still doesn’t have that good ole tank feel though.

I’m frankly not aware how a Druid really works other than it heals supposedly.

Gaurdian my old main I had hoped I could tank with but there are no one hand shield options that would work that way, I suppose there’s per a protection with the Hammer but what else can I consistently offer for defensive support?

I asked in guild once regarding Gaurdian and I was just told equip a Staff for Might and a Speed Buff ( that’s just depressing).

I’m probably just playing the wrong game.

This might have already been said, I only skimmed. And, I’m going to try to be concise to keep the post short so if you want something elaborated on just ask.

For Necro, the group condi transfer exists in Plague Signet, it pulls condi’s from your team allowing you to turn it into damage.

For Ranger(druid) you can basically full heal your group every 10-15s even while in a full DPS spec. I wouldn’t recommend going full healer but it is an option and can make things easy.

Guardian, I have a Clerics set that I bring into fractals sometimes. It makes things easy. Being able to face tank Mai trin or the Gladiator (end of chaos) so your team is free to pew pew/slash slash with damage is quite valuable. I was in a group the other day where a person said “wow we’re just melting this” which I found particularly entertaining considering 1/5 of us (me in this case) was doing almost no damage, it just freed up the team to do more themselves (much like your more typical MMO). Aegis rotations are particularly good on Chaos fractal’s boss.

I wouldn’t recommend that type of build in solo content or even a lot of group content, because you just can’t always take full advantage of it.

The Staff recommendation is likely for large scale WvW, where you play in bursts, you buff up and engage dropping all the burst damage, then disengage and regroup and drop burst healing/buffing so you can re-engage, rinse and repeat until you whittle the enemy down enough that you can just clean up and clear them out. So staff fits here, but not other places where it’s more about sustained combat.