Guild Wars 2

I’ve always thought tanking existed in the original computer games as an accident of the limited programming capabilities of the time. AIs were even dumber than they are now and games couldn’t handle using skills and moving at the same time (for the most part). Tanking came about as a clever way to exploit those mechanics.

I like ANet’s choice to do away with the old concept and return to something closer to how battles would probably work: nothing is completely invulnerable and nothing is completely squish. There’s damage and support and control, not stand there and heal from afar.

Tanking or healing are such narrow roles that it leaves a lot less for the player to think about or do.

I’m not saying GW2’s combat system is ideal (it’s not). I just mean I think it’s on the first step on the long road to a truly dynamic and dangerous gaming world.

I feel bad for all of you who never played city of heores…

Swagger.1459:

I feel bad for all of you who never played city of heores…

why? from all accounts, aside from the fun of being a super-hero|villain, sounds like we didn’t miss much.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Swagger.1459:

I feel bad for all of you who never played city of heores…

why? from all accounts, aside from the fun of being a super-hero|villain, sounds like we didn’t miss much.

Had an excellent class and role system with great skill designs.

Swagger.1459:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Swagger.1459:

I feel bad for all of you who never played city of heores…

why? from all accounts, aside from the fun of being a super-hero|villain, sounds like we didn’t miss much.

Had an excellent class and role system with great skill designs.

I’ve seen people use the same words to describe systems I’ve loved and many that I’ve hated. Since it’s off topic, I’ll take my answer “offline” (i.e. I’ll message you later, rather than bogging down this thread).

Tachenon.5270:

I want a character that can stand and fight, go toe to toe with the bad guys instead of flipping and flopping and rolling and bouncing all over the place like a jumping bean on crack. I want to play characters like Luke Cage and Ben Grimm, but all GW2 offers is Batroc and Toad and heavy armor made of foam rubber.

kitten , I miss City of Heroes.

I feel you. <3 My WP/SS tanker.

The issue isn’t to bring back traditional tanking, with a static aggro-threat system, but to make better use of the gear, stats and skills Arena-Net implemented. gear like berserkers, sinisters, vipers and damage oriented gear sinergize so well that gear like knights, nomads, settlers and clerics are considered obsolete. If these gear sets actually worked better, then there would be different play styles. Its a bad mechanic to have a lot of options and only have a a small few actually work well. This is not a “no trinity system”. this is a “we have a trinity and a few other things, but only dps is viable system”

Delgotta.3817:

The issue isn’t to bring back traditional tanking, with a static aggro-threat system, but to make better use of the gear, stats and skills Arena-Net implemented. gear like berserkers, sinisters, vipers and damage oriented gear sinergize so well that gear like knights, nomads, settlers and clerics are considered obsolete. If these gear sets actually worked better, then there would be different play styles. Its a bad mechanic to have a lot of options and only have a a small few actually work well. This is not a “no trinity system”. this is a “we have a trinity and a few other things, but only dps is viable system”

We do not have a only dps is viable system. For the most part we have an, “everything is viable system.”

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

The issue isn’t to bring back traditional tanking, with a static aggro-threat system, but to make better use of the gear, stats and skills Arena-Net implemented. gear like berserkers, sinisters, vipers and damage oriented gear sinergize so well that gear like knights, nomads, settlers and clerics are considered obsolete. If these gear sets actually worked better, then there would be different play styles. Its a bad mechanic to have a lot of options and only have a a small few actually work well. This is not a “no trinity system”. this is a “we have a trinity and a few other things, but only dps is viable system”

We do not have a only dps is viable system. For the most part we have an, “everything is viable system.”

when was the last time you had a guild meeting and someone said " you know, we need more thiefs in Apothecary gear!"

and yes, while you can DO almost all content with any gear and random build, dps, by flawed design, is so much more efficient, that it trivializes all other gear. in fact using these inferior sets, not only take much longer, but are much harder to do the same content. just for fun, try to do any regular content using ONLY gear that has support stats. no power at all. no precision. no ferocity. when your done, we can talk again about “viable”.

With HoT being a thing, I kinda miss being able to melee things. :|

Here is a side question to ponder. Can you tank in a game that does not have collision? To me the answer is no. Just being able to draw aggro is not quite the same, at least to me. Just an idle thought.

I don’t miss tanking. I do it every time I play my warrior or guardian. Of course I base that off what a tank actually is. A tank is a combination of mobility, firepower and durability.

http://www.benning.army.mil/armor/earmor/content/Historical/Principles.html

Vayne.8563:

I’ve always hating tanking. Always. Tanking, to me, is the worst thing that’s happened to the MMO genre.

I mean the typical tank and spank scenario is you have a tank, who draws all the aggro and stands there, while being healed by a healer, while everyone else takes it down. What part of this is not completely contrived.

I’m sure Lord of the Rings would have been a much better book if Boromir stood there tanking while Gandalf healed him, and no one was actually in any danger.

Tanking is ludicrous. It’s a mechanic that should not even exist. Yes, it’s lovely to not be able to die. But you know, that sort of defeats the whole purpose of playing a game in which you can die.

baha, I can’t imagine Gandalf wanting to be a (exclusive) healer personally.

Outside of PvP, Tempest/Earth/Water is the tankiest class available even with zerk gear. If you get tanky gear you will be near immortal and will keep others alive for a loooong time.

Vayne.8563:

I’ve always hating tanking. Always. Tanking, to me, is the worst thing that’s happened to the MMO genre.

I mean the typical tank and spank scenario is you have a tank, who draws all the aggro and stands there, while being healed by a healer, while everyone else takes it down. What part of this is not completely contrived.

I’m sure Lord of the Rings would have been a much better book if Boromir stood there tanking while Gandalf healed him, and no one was actually in any danger.

Tanking is ludicrous. It’s a mechanic that should not even exist. Yes, it’s lovely to not be able to die. But you know, that sort of defeats the whole purpose of playing a game in which you can die.

This is what my feel after my first mmo’s dungeon run that require a tank and healer. And it is the reason that driven me away. GW2 is what i preferred, as long as tanking is no necessary.

Thelgar.7214:

I don’t miss tanking. I do it every time I play my warrior or guardian. Of course I base that off what a tank actually is. A tank is a combination of mobility, firepower and durability.

http://www.benning.army.mil/armor/earmor/content/Historical/Principles.html

Might I politely suggest that you adjust your perception of what a tank is to be something more in line with the rest of us?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_character_class

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

The issue isn’t to bring back traditional tanking, with a static aggro-threat system, but to make better use of the gear, stats and skills Arena-Net implemented. gear like berserkers, sinisters, vipers and damage oriented gear sinergize so well that gear like knights, nomads, settlers and clerics are considered obsolete. If these gear sets actually worked better, then there would be different play styles. Its a bad mechanic to have a lot of options and only have a a small few actually work well. This is not a “no trinity system”. this is a “we have a trinity and a few other things, but only dps is viable system”

We do not have a only dps is viable system. For the most part we have an, “everything is viable system.”

and yes, while you can DO almost all content with any gear and random build

So we agree that non pure dps options are viable. Excellent.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Reapers great and all but I’m not sure how much extra healing I offer with the blood trait line, it would also be cool if there were a way to transfer conditions to minions through Death Magic for the whole party as well but I’m not sure that’s possible; still doesn’t have that good ole tank feel though.

…

I’m probably just playing the wrong game.

Since you miss tanking but want to play a healer I think you are probably right about playing the wrong game.

Aside from aggro issues, GW2 has a couple of crazy good tank builds. Throw Durability, Dmg Reduction food and Boon Duration on Tempest, Guardian or Warrior and the tanking is crazy good. A Warrior can keep Protection up full time and Resistance up most of a fight. Tempest’s can stay up under crazy damage while buffing and healing everything around them.

GW2 didn’t have the trinity at launch, but Durability runes and boon duration have essentially created builds with massive defensive sustain.

Svarty.8019:

Thelgar.7214:

I don’t miss tanking. I do it every time I play my warrior or guardian. Of course I base that off what a tank actually is. A tank is a combination of mobility, firepower and durability.

http://www.benning.army.mil/armor/earmor/content/Historical/Principles.html

Might I politely suggest that you adjust your perception of what a tank is to be something more in line with the rest of us?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_character_class

Why would I adjust my knowledge of what a tank is to match an inaccurate perception based upon a poorly named gaming mechanic that outlived it’s usefulness?

Straegen.2938:

GW2 didn’t have the trinity at launch, but Durability runes and boon duration have essentially created builds with massive defensive sustain.

Which is, for the classical tank role, pointless as long as you don’t have the means to reliably keep an enemy’s aggro.

Thelgar.7214:

Svarty.8019:

Thelgar.7214:

I don’t miss tanking. I do it every time I play my warrior or guardian. Of course I base that off what a tank actually is. A tank is a combination of mobility, firepower and durability.

http://www.benning.army.mil/armor/earmor/content/Historical/Principles.html

Might I politely suggest that you adjust your perception of what a tank is to be something more in line with the rest of us?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_character_class

Why would I adjust my knowledge of what a tank is to match an inaccurate perception based upon a poorly named gaming mechanic that outlived it’s usefulness?

Perhaps because words can have contextual meaning. Tank has a certain meaning, in general, in the context of an MMO just as it has a certain contextual meaning when referring to military vehicles.

And the word does not have the military vehicle contextual meaning as its origin.

However, the general tank MMO meaning is out of context in this particular game, in which the heavy armor characters function more like actual tanks than the tanks in other MMOs.

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

The issue isn’t to bring back traditional tanking, with a static aggro-threat system, but to make better use of the gear, stats and skills Arena-Net implemented. gear like berserkers, sinisters, vipers and damage oriented gear sinergize so well that gear like knights, nomads, settlers and clerics are considered obsolete. If these gear sets actually worked better, then there would be different play styles. Its a bad mechanic to have a lot of options and only have a a small few actually work well. This is not a “no trinity system”. this is a “we have a trinity and a few other things, but only dps is viable system”

We do not have a only dps is viable system. For the most part we have an, “everything is viable system.”

and yes, while you can DO almost all content with any gear and random build

So we agree that non pure dps options are viable. Excellent.

you can also build a house using loafs of bread, doesn’t make it viable. it makes it possible. stupid, but possible.

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

The issue isn’t to bring back traditional tanking, with a static aggro-threat system, but to make better use of the gear, stats and skills Arena-Net implemented. gear like berserkers, sinisters, vipers and damage oriented gear sinergize so well that gear like knights, nomads, settlers and clerics are considered obsolete. If these gear sets actually worked better, then there would be different play styles. Its a bad mechanic to have a lot of options and only have a a small few actually work well. This is not a “no trinity system”. this is a “we have a trinity and a few other things, but only dps is viable system”

We do not have a only dps is viable system. For the most part we have an, “everything is viable system.”

and yes, while you can DO almost all content with any gear and random build

So we agree that non pure dps options are viable. Excellent.

you can also build a house using loafs of bread, doesn’t make it viable. it makes it possible. stupid, but possible.

You might want to reevaluate your understanding of the word viable.

If it works, or can work, it is, by definition, viable.

Optimal is of course something else entirely.

Thelgar.7214:

However, the general tank MMO meaning is out of context in this particular game, in which the heavy armor characters function more like actual tanks than the tanks in other MMOs.

There is an aggro mechanic in GW2 by which a tougher character may hold aggro.

Not as reliable as in other MMOs, but it is there.

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

The issue isn’t to bring back traditional tanking, with a static aggro-threat system, but to make better use of the gear, stats and skills Arena-Net implemented. gear like berserkers, sinisters, vipers and damage oriented gear sinergize so well that gear like knights, nomads, settlers and clerics are considered obsolete. If these gear sets actually worked better, then there would be different play styles. Its a bad mechanic to have a lot of options and only have a a small few actually work well. This is not a “no trinity system”. this is a “we have a trinity and a few other things, but only dps is viable system”

We do not have a only dps is viable system. For the most part we have an, “everything is viable system.”

and yes, while you can DO almost all content with any gear and random build

So we agree that non pure dps options are viable. Excellent.

you can also build a house using loafs of bread, doesn’t make it viable. it makes it possible. stupid, but possible.

Hey now, I have a house made out of gingerbread every christmas.. You can’t call that stupid!

Ashen.2907:

Thelgar.7214:

However, the general tank MMO meaning is out of context in this particular game, in which the heavy armor characters function more like actual tanks than the tanks in other MMOs.

There is an aggro mechanic in GW2 by which a tougher character may hold aggro.

Not as reliable as in other MMOs, but it is there.

That is only true for some of the enemies.

Ashen.2907:

Thelgar.7214:

However, the general tank MMO meaning is out of context in this particular game, in which the heavy armor characters function more like actual tanks than the tanks in other MMOs.

There is an aggro mechanic in GW2 by which a tougher character may hold aggro.

Not as reliable as in other MMOs, but it is there.

And heavy armor characters in GW2 still function more like actual tanks than tanks which are typical of other MMOs.

Thelgar.7214:

Ashen.2907:

Thelgar.7214:

However, the general tank MMO meaning is out of context in this particular game, in which the heavy armor characters function more like actual tanks than the tanks in other MMOs.

There is an aggro mechanic in GW2 by which a tougher character may hold aggro.

Not as reliable as in other MMOs, but it is there.

And heavy armor characters in GW2 still function more like actual tanks than tanks which are typical of other MMOs.

And I love it. Wearing Charr T1 Heavy cultural armor and using a Legionnaire rifle gets the look down as well. I just wish I could find a good stat combination that gives the right balance of firepower and toughness.

Even then, Guardians do a kitten good job of the ‘classic’ tanking, especially as a Dragonhunter with Aegis-share, and Virtues. Well, maybe not tanking, but certainly support.

Unfortunately, from what I hear someone decided that boon-theft spam should be a thing in high-level fractals, making guardians a greater hindrance than help.

Thelgar.7214:

Ashen.2907:

Thelgar.7214:

However, the general tank MMO meaning is out of context in this particular game, in which the heavy armor characters function more like actual tanks than the tanks in other MMOs.

There is an aggro mechanic in GW2 by which a tougher character may hold aggro.

Not as reliable as in other MMOs, but it is there.

And heavy armor characters in GW2 still function more like actual tanks than tanks which are typical of other MMOs.

The GW franchise has always broken the MMO mold a bit in that regard. The heavily armed warrior type was generally a DPS role in GW1 as well. Even so “Tank” in the MMO context is every bit as much an, “actual tank,” as the military vehicle context.

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

The issue isn’t to bring back traditional tanking, with a static aggro-threat system, but to make better use of the gear, stats and skills Arena-Net implemented. gear like berserkers, sinisters, vipers and damage oriented gear sinergize so well that gear like knights, nomads, settlers and clerics are considered obsolete. If these gear sets actually worked better, then there would be different play styles. Its a bad mechanic to have a lot of options and only have a a small few actually work well. This is not a “no trinity system”. this is a “we have a trinity and a few other things, but only dps is viable system”

We do not have a only dps is viable system. For the most part we have an, “everything is viable system.”

and yes, while you can DO almost all content with any gear and random build

So we agree that non pure dps options are viable. Excellent.

you can also build a house using loafs of bread, doesn’t make it viable. it makes it possible. stupid, but possible.

You might want to reevaluate your understanding of the word viable.

If it works, or can work, it is, by definition, viable.

Optimal is of course something else entirely.

vi·a·ble
?v??b(?)l/
adjective
capable of working successfully; feasible.
“the proposed investment was economically viable”
synonyms: feasible, workable, practicable, practical, usable, possible, realistic, achievable, attainable, realizable; informaldoable

by your definition, jumping out of a plane without a shoot is viable, just because it can be done. for science sake, see if going out an air lock without a suit is “viable”.

for argument sake, lets talk OPTIMAL. you have yet to prove any other build or gear set is even an appealing suggestion. all you have done is dance around semantics without any case. please. by all means. tell me how we have all these gear sets and i have YET to hear “looking for necro in full givers”. or a organised group kicking a zerk for a warrior in magi gear.

If you want to be a tank you just perma-protection a Herald in Knight’s armor. You’ll do dandy damage and pretty much never take any. You want to prevent conditions? Just use Runes of Melandru. Stuff slides right off of you.

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

The issue isn’t to bring back traditional tanking, with a static aggro-threat system, but to make better use of the gear, stats and skills Arena-Net implemented. gear like berserkers, sinisters, vipers and damage oriented gear sinergize so well that gear like knights, nomads, settlers and clerics are considered obsolete. If these gear sets actually worked better, then there would be different play styles. Its a bad mechanic to have a lot of options and only have a a small few actually work well. This is not a “no trinity system”. this is a “we have a trinity and a few other things, but only dps is viable system”

We do not have a only dps is viable system. For the most part we have an, “everything is viable system.”

and yes, while you can DO almost all content with any gear and random build

So we agree that non pure dps options are viable. Excellent.

you can also build a house using loafs of bread, doesn’t make it viable. it makes it possible. stupid, but possible.

You might want to reevaluate your understanding of the word viable.

If it works, or can work, it is, by definition, viable.

Optimal is of course something else entirely.

vi·a·ble
?v??b(?)l/
adjective
capable of working successfully; feasible.
“the proposed investment was economically viable”
synonyms: feasible, workable, practicable, practical, usable, possible, realistic, achievable, attainable, realizable; informaldoable

by your definition, jumping out of a plane without a shoot is viable, just because it can be done. for science sake, see if going out an air lock without a suit is “viable”.

for argument sake, lets talk OPTIMAL. you have yet to prove any other build or gear set is even an appealing suggestion. all you have done is dance around semantics without any case. please. by all means. tell me how we have all these gear sets and i have YET to hear “looking for necro in full givers”. or a organised group kicking a zerk for a warrior in magi gear.

If the desired outcome is to die by falling from a great altitude then jumping out of an airplane might very well be a viable approach.

If the desired outcome is to live after jumping out of an airplane then doing so without a parachute is probably not a viable approach.

Note that the example given in your quoted text is of an action with a desired outcome (an investment).

Players were successfully completing content in GW2, and having fun doing so, long before current metas developed. Gear that people continue to, inaccurately, refer to as non-viable now has been used to complete content successfully many (potentially tens of thousands or more) times.

I do not need to prove that any non meta build or gear set is an appealing option compared to current meta because my position has been that other options are viable, not that they are optimal or appealing. In any discussion, debate, or argument one is not required to prove positions that are not one’s own.

The only proof that I could possibly provide that non meta options are appealing would be that people choose, sometimes, to run non meta builds because they prefer such. There have been many posts and threads stating just that on these forums. I personally have some non meta builds that I prefer over meta options for the class simply because efficiency can be important but does not, alone, define fun for me.

Now that I think about it I suppose there is something approximating proof that non meta options are appealing…people play classes and specs that are non meta despite the ready availability of information about meta options.

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

The issue isn’t to bring back traditional tanking, with a static aggro-threat system, but to make better use of the gear, stats and skills Arena-Net implemented. gear like berserkers, sinisters, vipers and damage oriented gear sinergize so well that gear like knights, nomads, settlers and clerics are considered obsolete. If these gear sets actually worked better, then there would be different play styles. Its a bad mechanic to have a lot of options and only have a a small few actually work well. This is not a “no trinity system”. this is a “we have a trinity and a few other things, but only dps is viable system”

We do not have a only dps is viable system. For the most part we have an, “everything is viable system.”

and yes, while you can DO almost all content with any gear and random build

So we agree that non pure dps options are viable. Excellent.

you can also build a house using loafs of bread, doesn’t make it viable. it makes it possible. stupid, but possible.

You might want to reevaluate your understanding of the word viable.

If it works, or can work, it is, by definition, viable.

Optimal is of course something else entirely.

vi·a·ble
?v??b(?)l/
adjective
capable of working successfully; feasible.
“the proposed investment was economically viable”
synonyms: feasible, workable, practicable, practical, usable, possible, realistic, achievable, attainable, realizable; informaldoable

by your definition, jumping out of a plane without a shoot is viable, just because it can be done. for science sake, see if going out an air lock without a suit is “viable”.

for argument sake, lets talk OPTIMAL. you have yet to prove any other build or gear set is even an appealing suggestion. all you have done is dance around semantics without any case. please. by all means. tell me how we have all these gear sets and i have YET to hear “looking for necro in full givers”. or a organised group kicking a zerk for a warrior in magi gear.

If the desired outcome is to die by falling from a great altitude then jumping out of an airplane might very well be a viable approach.

If the desired outcome is to live after jumping out of an airplane then doing so without a parachute is probably not a viable approach.

Note that the example given in your quoted text is of an action with a desired outcome (an investment).

Players were successfully completing content in GW2, and having fun doing so, long before current metas developed. Gear that people continue to, inaccurately, refer to as non-viable now has been used to complete content successfully many (potentially tens of thousands or more) times.

I do not need to prove that any non meta build or gear set is an appealing option compared to current meta because my position has been that other options are viable, not that they are optimal or appealing. In any discussion, debate, or argument one is not required to prove positions that are not one’s own.

The only proof that I could possibly provide that non meta options are appealing would be that people choose, sometimes, to run non meta builds because they prefer such. There have been many posts and threads stating just that on these forums. I personally have some non meta builds that I prefer over meta options for the class simply because efficiency can be important but does not, alone, define fun for me.

Now that I think about it I suppose there is something approximating proof that non meta options are appealing…people play classes and specs that are non meta despite the ready availability of information about meta options.

I do not need to prove that any non meta build or gear set is an appealing option compared to current meta because my position has been that other options are viable, not that they are optimal or appealing. In any discussion, debate, or argument one is not required to prove positions that are not one’s own.

you just contradicted everything you have said at this point

7 paragraphs and all the nutrition of a twinkie. I have read your posts, and posts in other threads, and have noticed all you do is create a counter argument with zero grounds while trying to use people words and phrasing against them to position yourself in a superior light. hell, you even countered your own non argument with a counter. in all the previous threads you have posted in you have provided zero insight, or any constructive thoughts at all, only a haughty opinion in the attempt to sadly spin round and round with no point or end. so i will call this here.

you sir, are a troll.

good day.

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

Ashen.2907:

Delgotta.3817:

The issue isn’t to bring back traditional tanking, with a static aggro-threat system, but to make better use of the gear, stats and skills Arena-Net implemented. gear like berserkers, sinisters, vipers and damage oriented gear sinergize so well that gear like knights, nomads, settlers and clerics are considered obsolete. If these gear sets actually worked better, then there would be different play styles. Its a bad mechanic to have a lot of options and only have a a small few actually work well. This is not a “no trinity system”. this is a “we have a trinity and a few other things, but only dps is viable system”

We do not have a only dps is viable system. For the most part we have an, “everything is viable system.”

and yes, while you can DO almost all content with any gear and random build

So we agree that non pure dps options are viable. Excellent.

you can also build a house using loafs of bread, doesn’t make it viable. it makes it possible. stupid, but possible.

You might want to reevaluate your understanding of the word viable.

If it works, or can work, it is, by definition, viable.

Optimal is of course something else entirely.

vi·a·ble
?v??b(?)l/
adjective
capable of working successfully; feasible.
“the proposed investment was economically viable”
synonyms: feasible, workable, practicable, practical, usable, possible, realistic, achievable, attainable, realizable; informaldoable

by your definition, jumping out of a plane without a shoot is viable, just because it can be done. for science sake, see if going out an air lock without a suit is “viable”.

for argument sake, lets talk OPTIMAL. you have yet to prove any other build or gear set is even an appealing suggestion. all you have done is dance around semantics without any case. please. by all means. tell me how we have all these gear sets and i have YET to hear “looking for necro in full givers”. or a organised group kicking a zerk for a warrior in magi gear.

If the desired outcome is to die by falling from a great altitude then jumping out of an airplane might very well be a viable approach.

If the desired outcome is to live after jumping out of an airplane then doing so without a parachute is probably not a viable approach.

Note that the example given in your quoted text is of an action with a desired outcome (an investment).

Players were successfully completing content in GW2, and having fun doing so, long before current metas developed. Gear that people continue to, inaccurately, refer to as non-viable now has been used to complete content successfully many (potentially tens of thousands or more) times.

I do not need to prove that any non meta build or gear set is an appealing option compared to current meta because my position has been that other options are viable, not that they are optimal or appealing. In any discussion, debate, or argument one is not required to prove positions that are not one’s own.

The only proof that I could possibly provide that non meta options are appealing would be that people choose, sometimes, to run non meta builds because they prefer such. There have been many posts and threads stating just that on these forums. I personally have some non meta builds that I prefer over meta options for the class simply because efficiency can be important but does not, alone, define fun for me.

Now that I think about it I suppose there is something approximating proof that non meta options are appealing…people play classes and specs that are non meta despite the ready availability of information about meta options.

I do not need to prove that any non meta build or gear set is an appealing option compared to current meta because my position has been that other options are viable, not that they are optimal or appealing. In any discussion, debate, or argument one is not required to prove positions that are not one’s own.

you just contradicted everything you have said at this point

7 paragraphs and all the nutrition of a twinkie. I have read your posts, and posts in other threads, and have noticed all you do is create a counter argument with zero grounds while trying to use people words and phrasing against them to position yourself in a superior light. hell, you even countered your own non argument with a counter. in all the previous threads you have posted in you have provided zero insight, or any constructive thoughts at all, only a haughty opinion in the attempt to sadly spin round and round with no point or end. so i will call this here.

you sir, are a troll.

good day.

I contradicted nothing that I have said, I merely repeated my previous statements. My only point, all along, was that non meta options were, and are, viable. They work. People use them. They may not be optimal, not the most efficient, but I never claimed that they were.

Any and all claims that these non meta builds and gear sets are not viable are inaccurate due to either a lack of understanding of what viable is…or pure dishonesty.

Delgotta.3817:

for argument sake, lets talk OPTIMAL. you have yet to prove any other build or gear set is even an appealing suggestion. all you have done is dance around semantics without any case. please. by all means. tell me how we have all these gear sets and i have YET to hear “looking for necro in full givers”. or a organised group kicking a zerk for a warrior in magi gear.

There are gear prefixes that are outside a game’s meta because the concept of a meta requires a (perceived) best choice. If all there is are choices that the meta accepts, then there’s no choosing going on. That means there will always be choices the meta disdains.

Meanwhile, there are other game modes besides PvE, and PvE players who don’t give a rat’s behind about the meta. If their experience is that a different prefix than berserker’s meets their gaming needs, then that prefix’ existence is justified. It doesn’t have to be a meta choice to add value to the game.

Consider, if you will, that at one point the stat choice considered most OP in PvP was Celestial. If you look on the WvW boards now, you’ll find lots of complaints about boon sharing, abetted by the new Concentration Stat as found on Commander prefix gear. The “best” choice will vary by game mode.

Are their inferior prefixes? Absolutely. However, despite this there were at one point many requests for some of those very stat combinations. Even now, I see the occasional request for a combination where I wonder, wtk do they want that for. The game developer needs to provide options for people who want them, whether I — or you — don’t think their choice makes sense.