Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

No, it doesn’t depend on that. It depends on people not substituting definitions for something ALREADY DEFINED IN A DOCUMENT. Colin DEFINED what grind was fort he purposes of what he was saying. He said it straight out. It’s not some hidden code. Then two lines later, he referred to grind AGAIN, in which case in any common usage of English as a language, it would use the same definition.

When you take a line from a paragraph and use it to mean something that it was never intended to mean, it’s called taking it out of context. Because without the first defining usage of the word, it MIGHT mean something else…but in context, it can only mean one thing. Or at very least can’t mean gear grind.

The fact that some people won’t acknowledge this doesn’t make it less true.

There is no definition. He uses the word grind once. Then he uses it again. Your “definition” is only your inference from a single sentence. Hence, you are the one fabricating a view from one very tiny portion of a text and taking it out of context.

If you look at the manifesto holistically, the inclusion of a description of the “gear grind” that you are excusing would completely clash. Your analysis of who didn’t lie and how they didn’t lie is beside the point. Of course a short video isn’t going to tell you everything that is and isn’t in a product as complex as an MMO. But this video was intended to represent the product. As it turns out, it misrepresented the product. Period.

Xenon.4537:

Ok, yes it was a tool to create hype, you’re absolutely right about that, but backhanding it by saying it’s dishonest is just silly. Point me to any advertizement that is 100% honest. I think the problem is people approaching the manifesto with the same attitude as approaching a dictionary or encyclopedia. This was just a video of some human beings trying to hype up their product that they were very excited about, not scientific documentation to be analyzed. People take the manifesto way too seriously, and take this perceived “betrayal” way too personally.

Again with this ‘but everyone does it!’ logic? I suppose everyone has to be 100% innocent before we can hold anyone accountable for their actions? “Little boys kill ants, so while my client may have killed those people, he isn’t guilty!” Mmm-hmm.

And then you present the ‘some people are overreacting, therefore everyone is overreacting’ logic as well. I don’t care if some people act like their life has ended. That doesn’t stop others from holding developers accountable in an appropriate manner.

Mickey.4207:

Vayne.8563:

Mickey.4207:

One of my favorite lines from Manifesto..
“I swung a sword, I swung a sword again, Hey! I swung a sword AGAIN!…….We just don’t want players to grind”

Even after such a long time it still cracks me up. Now people like OP can try and clarify what devs actually meant by things they said in manifesto but one can not change the fact that it was pure exaggeration and nothing but a tool to create hype to the point where it was completely dishonest.

Nope, I don’t have to clarify this because Anet already has.

You don’t just swing a sword, even if you have a sword. They’re talking about other stuff like enviromental weapons (which they show as a catapult in the video when saying that). They’re talking about the quests where you change form to other forms. They’re talking about transformation skills, where you get five new skills.

You don’t have to like it, but that’s what they’re talking about. And those things are all in the game.

No that is not what they are talking about. They were trying to assure the players that their game won’t follow old formula of repetition and grind. Hence the above statement of swinging the sword again and again.

You are trying twist their words and make it into something it isn’t. But i have come to expect that from you. So no surprise there.

Actually, what I’ve said they’ve said. If you don’t believe me, well, that doesn’t make what I’m saying less true. Someone didn’t believe the clarification existed and that was true too.

Anet in response to questions about the manifesto brought up environmental weapons on more than one occasion.

Fortuna.7259:

Vayne.8563:

No, it doesn’t depend on that. It depends on people not substituting definitions for something ALREADY DEFINED IN A DOCUMENT. Colin DEFINED what grind was fort he purposes of what he was saying. He said it straight out. It’s not some hidden code. Then two lines later, he referred to grind AGAIN, in which case in any common usage of English as a language, it would use the same definition.

When you take a line from a paragraph and use it to mean something that it was never intended to mean, it’s called taking it out of context. Because without the first defining usage of the word, it MIGHT mean something else…but in context, it can only mean one thing. Or at very least can’t mean gear grind.

The fact that some people won’t acknowledge this doesn’t make it less true.

There is no definition. He uses the word grind once. Then he uses it again. Your “definition” is only your inference from a single sentence. Hence, you are the one fabricating a view from one very tiny portion of a text and taking it out of context.

If you look at the manifesto holistically, the inclusion of a description of the “gear grind” that you are excusing would completely clash. Your analysis of who didn’t lie and how they didn’t lie is beside the point. Of course a short video isn’t going to tell you everything that is and isn’t in a product as complex as an MMO. But this video was intended to represent the product. As it turns out, it misrepresented the product. Period.

I uses the word grind once in a single “paragraph” which he then uses the word again. In most games there’s this annoying grind to get to the fun stuff…followed by we don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2. Even the word “this” in the first part, talks about a specific grind. It really is just English.

And other stuff that was said during discussions after the manifesto support this as well.

Fortuna.7259:

Xenon.4537:

Ok, yes it was a tool to create hype, you’re absolutely right about that, but backhanding it by saying it’s dishonest is just silly. Point me to any advertizement that is 100% honest. I think the problem is people approaching the manifesto with the same attitude as approaching a dictionary or encyclopedia. This was just a video of some human beings trying to hype up their product that they were very excited about, not scientific documentation to be analyzed. People take the manifesto way too seriously, and take this perceived “betrayal” way too personally.

Again with this ‘but everyone does it!’ logic? I suppose everyone has to be 100% innocent before we can hold anyone accountable for their actions? “Little boys kill ants, so while my client may have killed those people, he isn’t guilty!” Mmm-hmm.

And then you present the ‘some people are overreacting, therefore everyone is overreacting’ logic as well. I don’t care if some people act like their life has ended. That doesn’t stop others from holding developers accountable in an appropriate manner.

If you tried to take this to court, it would be laughed out of court. There’s nothing said in the manifesto that’s untrue, whether you agree with it or not. Any any new information that came out which gave detail to what was in the manifesto (which remains only a statement of intent), would clarify it. In order for a company to have to own up to doing something wrong, they’d have to be found to have done something wrong. Aggrieved players on a forum saying a company has wronged them is simply their opinion.

If they really felt that way, Anet gave refunds on the product, in many cases, to people who had the game for months. You probably could have gotten one when you realized the game wasn’t what you thought, such as after the ascended gear was implemented. I know many people did.

So Anet was accountable. They let people play their game for free for up to six months in one case, which is above and beyond the call of duty.

Now if Anet had released the manifesto and released no other information at all about the game that clarified it, and explained it and showed it to be what it is, then you might have a point. As it is, the only point here is that you don’t see the game the way they devs do. Because I’m pretty sure they don’t think they’ve lied.

Vayne.8563:

And other stuff that was said during discussions after the manifesto support this as well.

Not really.

We already linked the written Manifesto, which mentions how your (completely out of thin air) interpretation of the word “grind” is wrong.

You are ignoring the blog entries from ArenaNet, while claiming as “evidence” a forum topic, which even you claim to be circunstancial. You cannot provide this “other stuff” that ArenaNet would have said. We can. It shows you are wrong. You are ignoring it because it doesn’t suit you.

The amazing thing is that you expected people wouldn’t call you on it.

CrossedHorse.4261:

I think this whole manifesto fiasco is really much more to do with today’s culture of the “pre-order”. Generally, I like pre-ordering because I’m impatient, but can’t always get to a store on release day etc. Other people pre-order because of marketing or promises of exclusive rewards etc. This is a problem, actually, because it can both promote lazy developing, and also leads to companies being in trouble precisely because what they thought, two years before release, that they can do, they can’t. The game changes, but it’s already been sold to people, and those people aren’t happy – doesn’t really matter about the clarification … many people stopped reading/listening once they decided to purchase.

TotalBiscuit made a video in which he shares his thoughts about pre-ordering games:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf5Uj4XIT1Y

It’s worth watching. I’m not saying it solves the whole “argument” people like to have on this forum about whether or not ANet lied, but it’s an interesting thing to think about. A little “buyer beware” message.

Edit:
I should clarify that I am in no way comparing GW2 with the unmitigated disaster that was Aliens: Colonial Marines! I am simply saying that there is usually a gap in what people think they’re buying and what they actually do end up with. A little research usually goes a long way to help this, as does delaying the purchasing decision until more reliable information is available to help your decision. I’m not saying ANet are guilty of lying, and I’m not saying they delivered a perfect product. Simply stating that the issue isn’t only with the manifesto and ANet. Our culture in general tends to allow for this sort of mistake more often than not, and that’s the source of the problem, in my opinion.

This is due to many number of things, but mostly exacerbated by today’s trend for pre-purchasing games before any real, solid information is available. That’s not all on the buyer – why, after all, should we feel we can’t trust a manifesto? But, as Vayne has constantly pointed out, something released several years before the product itself can’t be the be all and end all.

I personally am not all that bothered about what was said and what ended up happening. This sort of thing happens with any product all the time – I’m not saying it’s right, I’m just saying that it’s difficult to really hold up the manifesto as the check list for the final product. In my personal experience, anything I’ve ever bought based off marketing only (ie, without waiting for reviews and a good few months post-release), has never been exactly what I thought it would be based on marketing alone.

Great post, i do think that video applies to Anet and every company these days, i wish more people would view that video and take it to heart, also i believe children under a legal age shouldn’t be able to pre order game without an adult present, because many do not understand the way it works..

I got burned by the manifesto video i’m ok with it, but i will not buy anything off anet again.

Luckily the GW2 game was ok, as in average, but i’m very careful what i pre order now, and i do not give videos like the manifesto video any credence anymore, as they are mostly lies and twisted words to make companies money obviously.

Dante.1508:

CrossedHorse.4261:

I think this whole manifesto fiasco is really much more to do with today’s culture of the “pre-order”. Generally, I like pre-ordering because I’m impatient, but can’t always get to a store on release day etc. Other people pre-order because of marketing or promises of exclusive rewards etc. This is a problem, actually, because it can both promote lazy developing, and also leads to companies being in trouble precisely because what they thought, two years before release, that they can do, they can’t. The game changes, but it’s already been sold to people, and those people aren’t happy – doesn’t really matter about the clarification … many people stopped reading/listening once they decided to purchase.

TotalBiscuit made a video in which he shares his thoughts about pre-ordering games:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf5Uj4XIT1Y

It’s worth watching. I’m not saying it solves the whole “argument” people like to have on this forum about whether or not ANet lied, but it’s an interesting thing to think about. A little “buyer beware” message.

Edit:
I should clarify that I am in no way comparing GW2 with the unmitigated disaster that was Aliens: Colonial Marines! I am simply saying that there is usually a gap in what people think they’re buying and what they actually do end up with. A little research usually goes a long way to help this, as does delaying the purchasing decision until more reliable information is available to help your decision. I’m not saying ANet are guilty of lying, and I’m not saying they delivered a perfect product. Simply stating that the issue isn’t only with the manifesto and ANet. Our culture in general tends to allow for this sort of mistake more often than not, and that’s the source of the problem, in my opinion.

This is due to many number of things, but mostly exacerbated by today’s trend for pre-purchasing games before any real, solid information is available. That’s not all on the buyer – why, after all, should we feel we can’t trust a manifesto? But, as Vayne has constantly pointed out, something released several years before the product itself can’t be the be all and end all.

I personally am not all that bothered about what was said and what ended up happening. This sort of thing happens with any product all the time – I’m not saying it’s right, I’m just saying that it’s difficult to really hold up the manifesto as the check list for the final product. In my personal experience, anything I’ve ever bought based off marketing only (ie, without waiting for reviews and a good few months post-release), has never been exactly what I thought it would be based on marketing alone.

Great post, i do think that video applies to Anet and every company these days, i wish more people would view that video and take it to heart, also i believe children under a legal age shouldn’t be able to pre order game without an adult present, because many do not understand the way it works..

I got burned by the manifesto video i’m ok with it, but i will not buy anything off anet again.

Luckily the GW2 game was ok, as in average, but i’m very careful what i pre order now, and i do not give videos like the manifesto video any credence anymore, as they are mostly lies and twisted words to make companies money obviously.

I’m not the only one who thinks Anet succeeded in what they tried to do, for the most part anyway.

Ultimately it is considered a success because it’s profitable. It’s not the huge step forward in the genera that it tried to be. It is steps forward in ways, but it’s too many steps backwards from what they did previously.

Dante.1508:

but i’m very careful what i pre order now, and i do not give videos like the manifesto video any credence anymore, as they are mostly lies and twisted words to make companies money obviously

Indeed.

Vayne.8563:

Somehow, I don’t see that as an issue here, since double posting isn’t against forum rules on this forum and I don’t subscribe to your definition of polite.

It’s your choice, considering how it has been mentioned a few times in this topic alone how making multiple posts like that hurts your credibility.

runs to the store for more popcorn

Dante.1508:

but i’m very careful what i pre order now, and i do not give videos like the manifesto video any credence anymore, as they are mostly lies and twisted words to make companies money obviously

Indeed.

Vayne.8563:

Somehow, I don’t see that as an issue here, since double posting isn’t against forum rules on this forum and I don’t subscribe to your definition of polite.

It’s your choice, considering how it has been mentioned a few times in this topic alone how making multiple posts like that hurts your credibility.

Making multiple posts don’t hurt credibility. Of all the claims you’ve made, this one has the least basis.

At the very least anyone who cares whether you’re doing it all in one post or on separate posts isn’t someone I’d care enough about to convince anyway. It’s a silly criteria for credibility.

Vayne.8563:

What is mentioned? The grind to get to fun things. That’s what’s mentioned. You can associate any definition you want to anything.

And what do you think those “fun things” are?

See I always read the “swing a sword” comment to be about the dynamic nature of combat in this game. I came from an MMO that roots you during an attack so it basically a slug fest unless you are kiting a mob or running away.

I also didn’t hear/read the manifesto until after I started playing so maybe I’m making these associations believing what I’m seeing is what they meant.

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

What is mentioned? The grind to get to fun things. That’s what’s mentioned. You can associate any definition you want to anything. But it really is just English.

And what do you think those “fun things” are?

I think you’re missing the entire context. Let’s go back three years in time. Let’s look at the MMO landscape.

In every single MMO I could think of, you had to level to raid. It’s what people did. They blew through leveling, power leveled, did everything they could to get to end game, because that’s where all the really cool stuff was.

Now, Anet, they put something like the Shadow Behemoth in a starter zone. Why? To give you the fun stuff right away. And that really is what they’re talking about. How do I know.

Because Colin said so in interviews about the manifesto after that.

Basically they’re trying to differentiate Guild Wars 2 from many other games out at that time saying, look you don’t have to rush to level to get to the fun stuff, because you can do the fun stuff at lower levels.

You might not agree with that, but many many people do. This game provides the best leveling experience of any MMORPG I’ve played.

But beyond that, once I got to end game, I didn’t have to raid. I could do anything I wanted. Go back to any zone. Bang around and half fun. It’s the difference between goal oriented-challenging, I have to live my life to play this game, and wait for my guild to get into a raid, compared with just having fun stuff to do.

Now, obviously, everyone finds different stuff fun. So I’m happy what I find fun is the same sorts of things the Anet devs apparently find fun. And again, I’m not alone in this.

Xenon.4537:

Ok, yes it was a tool to create hype, you’re absolutely right about that, but backhanding it by saying it’s dishonest is just silly. Point me to any advertizement that is 100% honest. I think the problem is people approaching the manifesto with the same attitude as approaching a dictionary or encyclopedia. This was just a video of some human beings trying to hype up their product that they were very excited about, not scientific documentation to be analyzed. People take the manifesto way too seriously, and take this perceived “betrayal” way too personally.

While it was used to help market the game its not an advertisement or even presented as such really. Plus its not just the 1 video, its the blog post about it plus numerous other blog posts and comments from devs from around the same time up until the game was released.

They knew how people interpreted how they were marketing the game because it was all over the relevant forums yet they continued marketing the game the same way so yeah it was deceptive.

Vayne.8563:

A fact is a fact. Me saying anyone who’s looked into would know the fact isn’t condescending, in spite of the fact you want to paint me that way. It’s just not true.

All you have is opinion not fact, you’re an editor you should understand that.

morrolan.9608:

Xenon.4537:

Ok, yes it was a tool to create hype, you’re absolutely right about that, but backhanding it by saying it’s dishonest is just silly. Point me to any advertizement that is 100% honest. I think the problem is people approaching the manifesto with the same attitude as approaching a dictionary or encyclopedia. This was just a video of some human beings trying to hype up their product that they were very excited about, not scientific documentation to be analyzed. People take the manifesto way too seriously, and take this perceived “betrayal” way too personally.

While it was used to help market the game its not an advertisement or even presented as such really. Plus its not just the 1 video, its the blog post about it plus numerous other blog posts and comments from devs from around the same time up until the game was released.

They knew how people interpreted how they were marketing the game because it was all over the relevant forums yet they continued marketing the game the same way so yea it was deceptive.

I disagree. It’s deceptive to some people because they had preexisting definitions of what grind was, that doesn’t necessarily jibe with every definition.

I’ve seen many many people post on these forums to say they’ve never had to grind in this game.

There was a quantum shift in the game when ascended gear was released (I’m not sure anyone would disagree with that), but that has nothing at all to do with the manifesto.

And there are still people saying the game is a full on gear grind, which I dont’ find it to be at all. Many of those people call doing dailies grinding, which I can’t imagine, having played some other MMOs.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

We’re still discussing the manifesto, it’s not really breaking any rules I can see. Why so anxious to close this thread? At least some progress was made here (as compared to other threads on the manifesto).

This has nothing to do with rules. You just keep changing your mind about what this thread is about. You said you wanted to clear up a couple of points that were in the blog…then it was about the entire manifesto. Then I said ok then let’s talk about the entire thing…then you basically correct me it isn’t and now it is…..

I am not anxious to close this thread I am just anxious to find what exactly your point is here because you keep jumping from one thing to another. I thought you had a specific point to make….now it’s turned into another discussion about the manifesto.

I told you you created another thread about the same subject.You said it wasn’t. Now it is…

Vayne.8563:

Edit: I actually can say most people or it’s commonly known if those things are true. I’ve been on forums long enough to know certain things are commonly known. You may not agree and that’s fine, but it doesn’t make it less true.

Commonly assumed. Not known. Just because a lot of people have the same idea is not proof.

As Bertrand Russell put it: " If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who disagrees with it hasn’t looked into it.

A phrase like this is arrogant and condescending and a falsehood. Just because you think you’re right, doesn’t mean people can’t come to a different conclusion. Your biggest assumption is that because you think something is true, it must be true for everyone. Having said that, I don’t know how many people lurk on the forums. I think people do, but I don’t KNOW it because I have no actual data to back this up.

Gehenna, I read these forums every night while laying in bed winding down. If ever, there is a voice of reason on this forum, you’re it. I enjoy your post. Thank you.

Vayne.8563:

Now, Anet, they put something like the Shadow Behemoth in a starter zone. Why? To give you the fun stuff right away. And that really is what they’re talking about. How do I know.

Because Colin said so in interviews about the manifesto after that.

See, that’s how you prove to us that you are wrong.

First, let me point the irony in your earlier statement:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve said that English is English and the English is clear. There’s no mention of the word gear at all. None. Zero. There’s no mention of vertical progress at all. None. Zero.

Let’s see, how many mentions does the Manifesto have of starting zones? None. Zero. How many times does it mention the Shadow Behemoth? None. Zero.

Ergo, your argument was wrong. The fact the Manifesto does not directly mention the word “gear” or “vertical progress” is irrelevant – it also does not directly mention what you think it’s talking about.

Second, let’s look at your second statement. You claim you know what Colin was talking about since it was mentioned in interviews after the Manifesto was created. However, when asked to provide links to those interviews, you fail to do so.

Meanwhile, what did ArenaNet say together with the Manifesto? I’m sure you remember this link. Unlike your own link, it’s from the ArenaNet blog, and not a bunch of forumers talking about what they thought they had understood. And unlike your claims that “grind to get the fun stuff” would specifically be talking about activities, it mentions…

ArenaNet

Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward.

…And guess what are rewards in GW2? Hint: it’s not fighting against the Shadow Behemoth.

In fact, in the link above (which, again, unlike anything you have provided, is actually ArenaNet itself talking about the Manifesto), the only other mention to the concept of grind is…

ArenaNet

Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill

…So, considering we have both mentions of a “grinding treadmill” and “grinding for a future fun reward”, it’s rather obvious that the concept of grind is being used to talk about things that are rewards and that could be a treadmill. Have you ever heard of the concept of gear treadmill? Or about the idea that gear is a reward?

Now, have you ever heard of a Shadow Behemoth treadmill? No? I wonder why.

In less words, your interpretation of the Manifesto is wrong.

And even ignoring all of that, even if I didn’t have all those links, and even if you actually did have anything at all from ArenaNet… It’s easy to show how you are wrong. You claim that the Manifesto is talking about grind to level up and reach “end game” content, that is usually locked behind some kind of progression gate in other MMOPRGs; and that said grind would be bad, but gear grind would be perfectly fine.

And that’s wrong.

The Manifesto says, “We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun”. What do people do to grind levels, in other MMOs? They kill the same monsters over and over, repetitively and mindlessly (“I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again” – sounds familiar?). What do people do to grind gear, in other MMOs, and in GW2? You can go watch it in the Crown Pavilion right now, but let me describe it for you: they kill the same monsters over and over, repetitively and mindlessly (“I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again”).

Now, and this is obvious, if grinding enemies to level up (and reach the fun content) is something no one enjoys and no one finds fun… Doing the exact same thing, grinding enemies in the same way, but to get gear (and thus reach the fun rewards) is not something people would enjoy, or something people would find fun.

Ergo, in two different ways, the Manifesto shows how you are wrong. The clarification from ArenaNet shows you are wrong. And what do you have in your defense…? An old forum topic? Riiiiiight.

No more excuses, Vayne. The Manifesto is a lie. It’s time you accept it.

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

Now, Anet, they put something like the Shadow Behemoth in a starter zone. Why? To give you the fun stuff right away. And that really is what they’re talking about. How do I know.

snip

See, that’s how you prove to us that you are wrong.

First, let me point the irony in your earlier statement:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve said that English is English and the English is clear. There’s no mention of the word gear at all. None. Zero. There’s no mention of vertical progress at all. None. Zero.

snip

Second, let’s look at your second statement. You claim you know what Colin was talking about since it was mentioned in interviews after the Manifesto was created. However, when asked to provide links to those interviews, you fail to do so.

snip

ArenaNet

Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward.

…And guess what are rewards in GW2? Hint: it’s not fighting against the Shadow Behemoth.

In fact, in the link above (which, again, unlike anything you have provided, is actually ArenaNet itself talking about the Manifesto), the only other mention to the concept of grind is…

ArenaNet

Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill

…So, considering we have both mentions of a “grinding treadmill” and “grinding for a future fun reward”, it’s rather obvious that the concept of grind is being used to talk about things that are rewards and that could be a treadmill. Have you ever heard of the concept of gear treadmill? Or about the idea that gear is a reward?

Now, have you ever heard of a Shadow Behemoth treadmill? No? I wonder why.

In less words, your interpretation of the Manifesto is wrong.

And even ignoring all of that, even if I didn’t have all those links, and even if you actually did have anything at all from ArenaNet… It’s easy to show how you are wrong. You claim that the Manifesto is talking about grind to level up and reach “end game” content, that is usually locked behind some kind of progression gate in other MMOPRGs; and that said grind would be bad, but gear grind would be perfectly fine.

And that’s wrong.

The Manifesto says, “We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun”. What do people do to grind levels, in other MMOs? They kill the same monsters over and over, repetitively and mindlessly (“I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again” – sounds familiar?). What do people do to grind gear, in other MMOs, and in GW2? You can go watch it in the Crown Pavilion right now, but let me describe it for you: they kill the same monsters over and over, repetitively and mindlessly (“I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again”).

Now, and this is obvious, if grinding enemies to level up (and reach the fun content) is something no one enjoys and no one finds fun… Doing the exact same thing, grinding enemies in the same way, but to get gear (and thus reach the fun rewards) is not something people would enjoy, or something people would find fun.

Ergo, in two different ways, the Manifesto shows how you are wrong. The clarification from ArenaNet shows you are wrong. And what do you have in your defense…? An old forum topic? Riiiiiight.

No more excuses, Vayne. The Manifesto is a lie. It’s time you accept it.

Right…it doesn’t mention starting zones. It mentions fun stuff to do. You don’t do gear. It’s that simple. It is English.

Fun…stuff…to do. What is what you’re doing? Events. That’s what they’re talking about. Personal story. Both of these things are mentioned in the manifesto.

Not just reading a wall of text, running to the next guy and running back for the rewards. Events that happen. You see the centaurs destroying stuff. I don’t know about you, I’ve seen the centaurs destroying stuff. I’ve seen the bandits destroying stuff. And when I played WoW, get this, I didn’t see that.

Even in Rift, there was a burning town that was a quest hub, but it was ALWAYS a burning town. I never saw the town when it wasn’t burning. In Guild Wars 2 that town would be been burned down and rebuilt. It’s different. And for some people it’s fun.

Fun stuff to do. TO DO. You don’t do loot. You don’t do gear. You do stuff for which gear is a reward.

The manifesto is not a lie. It’s about time you accepted it.

Not a lie re grinding to get to “the fun stuff”

The lie was “the fun stuff”. The “fun” stuff is all grind, whether it be grinding AA, grinding a “live Event” by sheer massive repetition of junk like pounding signs or hurling up bad candy, or just the fact that you end up doing the same thing over and over. It’s a grind tossing items into a mystic toilet. It’s a grind running dungeons. It’s a grind running dragons. It’s a grind collecting craft fines or anything needed for end game crafting. It’s a grind running idiotic mini-games enough times to qualify for AA or beat the RNG for a limited time reward.

This game is the easiest leveling game I’ve ever played.. and that fast leveling leads you to nothing but endless repetitions of the events you did to level, endless grinds to achieve end game items, and new content that is nothing but “grind as fast as you can” to get the limited time awards and achievements.

This game has taken “play your way” to “play our way or suffer”. The GRIND is optional, but without it there is no end game. If a player chooses not to GRIND, well.. “you aren’t doing it right”.

“We don’t make grindy games” Sorry Mike, yeah, you did.

Hype is hype, be it marketing or rabid apologists, it is all hype. And while it may not be a “lie” it most certainly isn’t the truth either.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Not a lie re grinding to get to “the fun stuff”

The lie was “the fun stuff”. The “fun” stuff is all grind, whether it be grinding AA, grinding a “live Event” by sheer massive repetition of junk like pounding signs or hurling up bad candy, or just the fact that you end up doing the same thing over and over. It’s a grind tossing items into a mystic toilet. It’s a grind running dungeons. It’s a grind running dragons. It’s a grind collecting craft fines or anything needed for end game crafting. It’s a grind running idiotic mini-games enough times to qualify for AA or beat the RNG for a limited time reward.

This game is the easiest leveling game I’ve ever played.. and that fast leveling leads you to nothing but endless repetitions of the events you did to level, endless grinds to achieve end game items, and new content that is nothing but “grind as fast as you can” to get the limited time awards and achievements.

This game has taken “play your way” to “play our way or suffer”. The GRIND is optional, but without it there is no end game. If a player chooses not to GRIND, well.. “you aren’t doing it right”.

“We don’t make grindy games” Sorry Mike, yeah, you did.

You can’t lie about fun, fun being an opinion at all. Even if they did have signs, if you chose to grind them, it wasn’t going to be fun. If you chose to fix a couple every time you were in the zone in passing, it had little to do with the fun stuff…because there’s another clarification in there.

In most games you have to go through this grind to get to the fun stuff. This doesn’t say that every single thing in this game will be fun to every player. How could that even be possible.

It says there will be fun things to do, pretty much right away. Now, one person may hate the personal story, but some people like it. One person may hate jumping puzzles (notice how many are in early zones) and some people may love them. Some people may hate WvW (which you can enter right away) and some people love it. The game was giving you a range of things to do, including crafting, which would level your character and is fun for some people. You pick what’s most fun for you.

What the manifesto didn’t say was that there would be an infinite amount of fun content moving forward for people who have done all the content. It never even implied that. So while pounding in signs isn’t fun, it doesn’t mean those fun things don’t exist in the game.

And you know, it is possible to like NOTHING about the game. It’s possible not to like hearts, or events, or jumping puzzles or crafting, or WvW, or the personal story. But that’s still just one person’s opinion.

I find various aspects of the game fun, and some aspects of the game less fun, just like I do in every game I play.

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, means that instead of grinding to level to max level, and THEN have fun, you have fun stuff to do right at the start.

(…)

It’s like you’re select on sentence A and sentence B, you’ve ignored two years of context.

You are ignoring the evidence in front of your face: "Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward”. That’s a direct quote from ArenaNet, instead of something vague like your so-called “context”. Did you honestly expect you could just look at the first statement there, ignore the second, and not be called on it? We have lots and lots of grind in GW2 for rewards. Ergo, Manifesto = lie.

Sorry, but it’s not a lie. Because some people don’t grind for future reward. And why do you keep ignoring these two facts.

1. Anet said straight out there would be stuff to grind for for people who like that playstyle but it wouldn’t be required.

2. Guild Wars 1 had tons of grind…so many grindy achievements that actually affected your character’s power.

So maybe they’re not using grind in the sense you are super imposing over it, but they’re using grind in the more traditional meaning of killing mobs to level (a quote I’ve also posted before but you continue to ignore).

Vayne.8563:

Dante.1508:

CrossedHorse.4261:

I think this whole manifesto fiasco is really much more to do with today’s culture of the “pre-order”. Generally, I like pre-ordering because I’m impatient, but can’t always get to a store on release day etc. Other people pre-order because of marketing or promises of exclusive rewards etc. This is a problem, actually, because it can both promote lazy developing, and also leads to companies being in trouble precisely because what they thought, two years before release, that they can do, they can’t. The game changes, but it’s already been sold to people, and those people aren’t happy – doesn’t really matter about the clarification … many people stopped reading/listening once they decided to purchase.

TotalBiscuit made a video in which he shares his thoughts about pre-ordering games:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf5Uj4XIT1Y

It’s worth watching. I’m not saying it solves the whole “argument” people like to have on this forum about whether or not ANet lied, but it’s an interesting thing to think about. A little “buyer beware” message.

Edit:
I should clarify that I am in no way comparing GW2 with the unmitigated disaster that was Aliens: Colonial Marines! I am simply saying that there is usually a gap in what people think they’re buying and what they actually do end up with. A little research usually goes a long way to help this, as does delaying the purchasing decision until more reliable information is available to help your decision. I’m not saying ANet are guilty of lying, and I’m not saying they delivered a perfect product. Simply stating that the issue isn’t only with the manifesto and ANet. Our culture in general tends to allow for this sort of mistake more often than not, and that’s the source of the problem, in my opinion.

This is due to many number of things, but mostly exacerbated by today’s trend for pre-purchasing games before any real, solid information is available. That’s not all on the buyer – why, after all, should we feel we can’t trust a manifesto? But, as Vayne has constantly pointed out, something released several years before the product itself can’t be the be all and end all.

I personally am not all that bothered about what was said and what ended up happening. This sort of thing happens with any product all the time – I’m not saying it’s right, I’m just saying that it’s difficult to really hold up the manifesto as the check list for the final product. In my personal experience, anything I’ve ever bought based off marketing only (ie, without waiting for reviews and a good few months post-release), has never been exactly what I thought it would be based on marketing alone.

Great post, i do think that video applies to Anet and every company these days, i wish more people would view that video and take it to heart, also i believe children under a legal age shouldn’t be able to pre order game without an adult present, because many do not understand the way it works..

I got burned by the manifesto video i’m ok with it, but i will not buy anything off anet again. People like Vayne either work for Anet or are so indoctrinated they have no middle ground.

Luckily the GW2 game was ok, as in average, but i’m very careful what i pre order now, and i do not give videos like the manifesto video any credence anymore, as they are mostly lies and twisted words to make companies money obviously.

Look at you. I’m either an Anet employee or I’m indoctrinated because I’m enjoying a game and that I see things differently from you. Nice.

I’m not the only one who thinks Anet succeeded in what they tried to do, for the most part anyway.

It has nothing to do with you enjoying the game Vayne, i’m really glad you like GW2.

It is because you will not believe the game has flaws and mechanics issues and some serious balance problems, you will not take any criticism to the game in anyway bar maybe RNG and even then your very quiet about it.

The game is far from perfect and it needs new content badly, real content. but you see anyone who asks for changes and fixes as your enemy and Anets enemy.

I’m glad you like it as i said i just don’t feel my money was well spent when i bought GW2 and that Video was not honest at all.

Vayne.8563:

So maybe they’re not using grind in the sense you are super imposing over it, but they’re using grind in the more traditional meaning of killing mobs to level (a quote I’ve also posted before but you continue to ignore).

Vayne, you never post links to ArenaNet quotes (unlike myself). The definition of grind you claim to be the “traditional” one has never been mentioned by ArenaNet. In fact, when they talk about grinding for rewards, they made it clear they are not using the definition of grind you claim they would be using.

You can’t reply to the ArenaNet quote about grinding for rewards because that single statement destroys all the dozens of posts you have made about the Manifesto. It’s clear that ArenaNet claimed the game would not have grind, and later changed their minds, while still using the Manifesto as a marketing tool. In other words, they lied.

Dante.1508:

Vayne.8563:

Dante.1508:

CrossedHorse.4261:

snip

TotalBiscuit made a video in which he shares his thoughts about pre-ordering games:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf5Uj4XIT1Y

It’s worth watching. I’m not saying it solves the whole “argument” people like to have on this forum about whether or not ANet lied, but it’s an interesting thing to think about. A little “buyer beware” message.

Edit:
I should clarify that I am in no way comparing GW2 with the unmitigated disaster that was Aliens: Colonial Marines! I am simply saying that there is usually a gap in what people think they’re buying and what they actually do end up with. A little research usually goes a long way to help this, as does delaying the purchasing decision until more reliable information is available to help your decision. I’m not saying ANet are guilty of lying, and I’m not saying they delivered a perfect product. Simply stating that the issue isn’t only with the manifesto and ANet. Our culture in general tends to allow for this sort of mistake more often than not, and that’s the source of the problem, in my opinion.

This is due to many number of things, but mostly exacerbated by today’s trend for pre-purchasing games before any real, solid information is available. That’s not all on the buyer – why, after all, should we feel we can’t trust a manifesto? But, as Vayne has constantly pointed out, something released several years before the product itself can’t be the be all and end all.

I personally am not all that bothered about what was said and what ended up happening. This sort of thing happens with any product all the time – I’m not saying it’s right, I’m just saying that it’s difficult to really hold up the manifesto as the check list for the final product. In my personal experience, anything I’ve ever bought based off marketing only (ie, without waiting for reviews and a good few months post-release), has never been exactly what I thought it would be based on marketing alone.

Great post, i do think that video applies to Anet and every company these days, i wish more people would view that video and take it to heart, also i believe children under a legal age shouldn’t be able to pre order game without an adult present, because many do not understand the way it works..

I got burned by the manifesto video i’m ok with it, but i will not buy anything off anet again. People like Vayne either work for Anet or are so indoctrinated they have no middle ground.

Luckily the GW2 game was ok, as in average, but i’m very careful what i pre order now, and i do not give videos like the manifesto video any credence anymore, as they are mostly lies and twisted words to make companies money obviously.

Look at you. I’m either an Anet employee or I’m indoctrinated because I’m enjoying a game and that I see things differently from you. Nice.

I’m not the only one who thinks Anet succeeded in what they tried to do, for the most part anyway.

It has nothing to do with you enjoying the game Vayne, i’m really glad you like GW2.

It is because you will not believe the game has flaws and mechanics issues and some serious balance problems, you will not take any criticism to the game in anyway bar maybe RNG and even then your very quiet about it.

The game is far from perfect and it needs new content badly, real content. but you see anyone who asks for changes and fixes as your enemy and Anets enemy.

I’m glad you like it as i said i just don’t feel my money was well spent when i bought GW2 and that Video was not honest at all.

The game is far from perfect. You’re right. That has nothing to do with the manifesto.

If you want to complain about not having enough build variety, go right ahead. Why bring up the manifesto to do it.

If you want to complain about the game not being rewarding enough. Go right ahead. Why bring up the manifesto to do it?

The manifesto, being 3 years old now and somewhat in question strengthens no one’s argument.

Not only have I not said the game is perfect, I said it’s not a great game. It’s a good game with a potential to be great.

Of course, the problems I have with it are very different from the problems you have with it.

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

So maybe they’re not using grind in the sense you are super imposing over it, but they’re using grind in the more traditional meaning of killing mobs to level (a quote I’ve also posted before but you continue to ignore).

Vayne, you never post links to ArenaNet quotes (unlike myself). The definition of grind you claim to be the “traditional” one has never been mentioned by ArenaNet. In fact, when they talk about grinding for rewards, they made it clear they are not using the definition of grind you claim they would be using.

You can’t reply to the ArenaNet quote about grinding for rewards because that single statement destroys all the dozens of posts you have made about the Manifesto. It’s clear that ArenaNet claimed the game would not have grind, and later changed their minds, while still using the Manifesto as a marketing tool. In other words, they lied.

As I’ve said again and again, I have no desire to troll the net to find things I know were said. You expressed doubts about the clarification and someone else posted it. If you care to research it, go ahead, but stuff was said.

Some of that stuff isn’t around anymore, but plenty of it is. Particularly the old Reddit AMAs, the videos of panels at conventions, the interviews with devs…but you know, I do this for FUN. Trolling through old stuff isn’t fun, so I don’t do it.

Everything I’m saying that was said was said. You questioned me once, I went looking once and found a thread. It was someone else who posted the entire clarification.

But I’m not here to do your research. I’m saying it was said and anyone who wants to can do that research. I had to research for a living before I retired. I don’t have to do it now.

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

TheDaiBish.9735:

http://amd-icbm.com/icbm/anet-blog-mmo-manifesto-reactions/

Partial interview

TL:DR – When they were talking about bosses not returning 10 mins later, they were referring to Personal Story bosses.

Which makes their point pointless because there are plenty of other games out there where storyline bosses don’t respawn either. Somthing called instancing, which is how it’s done in GW2 and also in many other games. No wonder people read more into it since they were being all excited about an exciting new thing, which was in fact already commonplace in newer games.

It’s not pointless, you’re simply missing the point.

First of all we’re talking MMOs, not single player games. And when this was made, there was no MMO that gave you a PERSONAL story. What does that mean?

In WoW, a human warrior is a human warrior. All human warriors start in the same place and run through the same quests. You’re not a poor human warrior or a rich one. You don’t have a personal story. All MMOs have stories. Not all of them have YOUR story. It’s pretty simple.

The only other MMO I know that has a personal story is SWToR, and of course, that’s Bioware’s strong suit. MMOs, however, weren’t, as shown by the rapid decline of that game and half the staff being laid off.

The point is, when the manifesto was created, no MMO that was out had a personal story built into it. Anet had every reason to talk about it (whether you like the personal story or not).

Sorry to rain down but I think whether you like it or not ANET / NCSoft is a business and like many things in business, things change for a multitude of reasons as time goes on.
GW2 is a product that needs to generate money and as mother time moves on so that product will require some change and cashshop, personal story, dungeons, gear etc, etc are the means that they have and choose to utilise in order to keep the cash stream flowing.
The manifesto is not the holy bible it is not something written in stone … it is a PR gimmick put out there to entice us all, but as soon as the games went live ANET /NCSoft were under no obligation to do anything other than protect their revenue stream from the game.

The sooner you get over this “not to the manifesto / broken promises” stuff the sooner you might start to sleep easier

Vayne.8563:

—snip—
2. Guild Wars 1 had tons of grind…so many grindy achievements that actually affected your character’s power.
—snip—

Yes and No. Do recall that this “grind” that impacted your character power was negligible. You are referring to Eye of the North, Sunspear, Lightbringer, and Luxon/Kurzick titles. Titles that impacted PvE only skills, of which only 3 could be used at a time. Titles that progressed naturally as you went through the game’s story. These titles naturally progressed to t3-t6 when you played through a storyline, which was more than adequate to make these skills very effective, for example with Asuran Scan
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Asuran_Scan/Skill_history.

You are twisting people’s perception of ANet as they were with the original Guild Wars, by implying that power progression was a significant part of that game when it was negligible. It’s negligible enough that Mike O’brien is quoted as saying vertical progression didn’t exist in Guild Wars, even though it technically did.

Shockwave.1230:

Vayne.8563:

—snip—
2. Guild Wars 1 had tons of grind…so many grindy achievements that actually affected your character’s power.
—snip—

Yes and No. Do recall that this “grind” that impacted your character power was negligible. You are referring to Eye of the North, Sunspear, Lightbringer, and Luxon/Kurzick titles. Titles that impacted PvE only skills, of which only 3 could be used at a time. Titles that progressed naturally as you went through the game’s story. These titles naturally progressed to t3-t6 when you played through a storyline, which was more than adequate to make these skills very effective, for example with Asuran Scan
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Asuran_Scan/Skill_history.

You are twisting people’s perception of ANet as they were with the original Guild Wars, by implying that power progression was a significant part of that game when it was negligible. It’s negligible enough that Mike O’brien is quoted as saying vertical progression didn’t exist in Guild Wars, even though it technically did.

Actually I disagree about how little it affected your character…in certain specific cases, anyway.

There were specific builds, builds required by the meta in PVe, that you needed to have points there.

In case you weren’t there at the time, LF rank 8 Ursan was hardly something uncommon. Having to get luxon points to make my “Save Yourselves” para/warrior imbagon build some SOMEONE would accept me on a DOA run is much much worse than anything Anet has done in Guild Wars 2. Maybe you weren’t playing at that point, I don’t know.

The fact is, the reason you could only use 3 PVe only skills, is because those skills were the most powerful in the game. Pain Inverter plus a minion master took down most ele bosses pretty kitten fast. Technobabble, necrosis, the sin skill (the sunspear one I think) needed to create a permasin.

Those grinds were less optional than the ones in Guild Wars 2, as far as I’m concerned.

Also keep in mind I generally only talk PvE, because I don’t have enough experience to say anything about most PvP. I’m a rank amateur at PvP.

Vayne.8563:

Actually I disagree about how little it affected your character…in certain specific cases, anyway.

There were specific builds, builds required by the meta in PVe, that you needed to have points there.

In case you weren’t there at the time, LF rank 8 Ursan was hardly something uncommon. Having to get luxon points to make my “Save Yourselves” para/warrior imbagon build some SOMEONE would accept me on a DOA run is much much worse than anything Anet has done in Guild Wars 2. Maybe you weren’t playing at that point, I don’t know.

You are free to disagree, but let me expand your mind about your counterpoints.

First and most importantly, the existance of PvE skills is not the same thing as the power progression associated with. When you first obtain a PvE skill, it is already a VERY good skill.

Second and also important. Remember that by just playing through a Campaign, you got your title ranks somewhere between t3-t6 on average.

Thirdly, also remember these skills are limited to 3 per bar. The skills augmented the effectiveness of your build, but there are a couple of examples that you point out which effectively were people’s build.

Moving on to your specific examples…

Ursan Blessing – This skill was a build in and off itself. When it was released you could perminently stay in this form while dealing large amounts of unconditional damage combined with a Knockdown for crowd control and weakness for damage mitigaiton.

ANet made a mistake with Ursan, which they rectified by removing it’s perminant nature. This caused the meta for DoA to change, so it didn’t soley rely on a group of players using one skill. A similar situation happened with Cry of Pain due to it’s power, but was not as egregious as the scaling was more favorable for this skill. Ursan Blessing is the only thing in the game where it ever became necessary to grind for power. Even though this mistake was made, it was resolved.

Imbagon – The pve skill Save Yourselves effectively reduced unconditional direct damage by about 90% for your whole party except you. You’re entire build revolved around maintaining Save Yourselves 100% of the time, and you couldn’t do much else, but it was so effective it didn’t matter that it was the only thing you could do.

Aside from past controversy, about whether this build should exist, the fact is the build revolved around 1 skill. Save Yourselves was effective at t1, but a kittenallenging to maintain always due to the 4 second uptime. At the next title rank t2, it lasts 5 seconds, which was much easier to maintain. The only extra effectiveness it gained was a 6 second duration at t6, which didn’t matter because it was easy to maintain 100% uptime at 5 seconds. The other thing about this build, is that it was only effective to have 1 per party, which is significantly different than Cry of Pain or Ursan Blessing. So your group of people only needed to know 1 person with t2 or higher to use this build, which was not challenging to obtain. So you had to option to grind out 1 more second, but it didn’t matter if you did or didn’t.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/%22Save_Yourselves!%22

Vayne.8563:

The fact is, the reason you could only use 3 PVe only skills, is because those skills were the most powerful in the game. Pain Inverter plus a minion master took down most ele bosses pretty kitten fast. Technobabble, necrosis, the sin skill (the sunspear one I think) needed to create a permasin.

Those grinds were less optional than the ones in Guild Wars 2, as far as I’m concerned.

Also keep in mind I generally only talk PvE, because I don’t have enough experience to say anything about most PvP. I’m a rank amateur at PvP.

Again, PvE skills being powerful in and of themselves when you first get them is completely separate from the progression that came with titles.

Pain Inverter – This skill effectively reflected damage that the target inflicted with a cap of 80 damage per hit.

Pain inverter with minions was good, but that was due to the base skill itself. Minions didn’t last more than a few hits against ele AoE, they would trigger the damage cap when you first got the skill. And if you look at the numbers t3-t6 are close to or at it’s power cap. This skills vertical progression came naturally just by playing EoTN. There was no grind to max this skill’s power.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Pain_Inverter

Technobabble – Light Damage with a strong daze.

This skill also caps out early just like the other Asuran PvE skills. You get it and it’s good, you play through the storyline and it’s naturally maxed out. No grind related to power progression here either.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Technobabble

Necrosis – Single target direct damage

Necrosis is another skill that maxes out early on. In fact, you had to get to the Sunspear captain rank just to get of the Island of Istan, which is t5 for that title. This skills power progression maxes out at t5.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Sunspear_rank#Sunspear_rank_title_track
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Time_is_Nigh
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Necrosis

Permasin – Maintain Shadow Form with 100% upkeep to be invincible. This build allowed you to tank, but not really anything else.

In order to be a permasin initially before the buff you were an A/Me and you relied on Arcane Echo, Shadow Form and Deadly Paradox. After the buff, you could be a permasin with less constraints. None of the skills for being a permasin were PvE only, this is incorrect. There were PvE skills that were helpful to perma sins, but the build did not require any PvE skills.

You are correct though, these grinds from Guild Wars were less optional than Guild Wars 2, because there was no grind to make these skills effective and the power progression happened naturally by doing the story.

I ask that you please refrain from twisting people’s view of ANet’s previous stance on power progression, because the stance was to not do it. There is substancial evidence backing this, which I can continue to reference and elaborate on.

Okay the whole the skill maxes out at rank 5 is a new update, only recently put into the game. For many many years, you had to get all the way to rank 10 to get max on these skills, so the current wiki isn’t of much use. In fact, it was only changed when Guild Wars 2 came out. So nothing maxed at T5 during the time when most of us played Guild Wars 1 as it was meant to be played. And you can bet that the tier 5 change wouldn’t have been made if we were all still playing. This was to get the newer players coming in to get HoM points a bit of extra help, nothing more.

The point is Guild Wars 1 had outrageous grinds that affected skills and Guild Wars 2 really doesn’t. The grind (unquote) for legendary stuff is not grind at all but time-gating which is entirely different from grind.

In other words the full amount of time it takes to get these things is a pittance compared to getting the highest level on some title tracks (remember many of those other title tracks gave you advantages in retaining lockpicks, not breaking items when you salvaged runes from them, etc).

Titles and achievements don’t have the same impact on Guild Wars 2. That leaves ascended gear, which means just accessories at this point. It may take a month or two to get everything kitted out, but if you do manage to do it effiiciently you’re spending a fraction of the time/effort that you spend in Guild Wars 1 leveling up some of those tiers for those skills.

Guild Wars 1 had grind but not required grind. Guild Wars 2 has grind but not required grind.

Vayne.8563:

Okay the whole the skill maxes out at rank 5 is a new update, only recently put into the game. For many many years, you had to get all the way to rank 10 to get max on these skills, so the current wiki isn’t of much use. In fact, it was only changed when Guild Wars 2 came out. So nothing maxed at T5 during the time when most of us played Guild Wars 1 as it was meant to be played. And you can bet that the tier 5 change wouldn’t have been made if we were all still playing. This was to get the newer players coming in to get HoM points a bit of extra help, nothing more.

The point is Guild Wars 1 had outrageous grinds that affected skills and Guild Wars 2 really doesn’t. The grind (unquote) for legendary stuff is not grind at all but time-gating which is entirely different from grind.

In other words the full amount of time it takes to get these things is a pittance compared to getting the highest level on some title tracks (remember many of those other title tracks gave you advantages in retaining lockpicks, not breaking items when you salvaged runes from them, etc).

Titles and achievements don’t have the same impact on Guild Wars 2. That leaves ascended gear, which means just accessories at this point. It may take a month or two to get everything kitted out, but if you do manage to do it effiiciently you’re spending a fraction of the time/effort that you spend in Guild Wars 1 leveling up some of those tiers for those skills.

Guild Wars 1 had grind but not required grind. Guild Wars 2 has grind but not required grind.

Actually the t5 max power thing has been around for a lot of skills as long as I can remember.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Asuran_Scan/Skill_history

But I only started paying attention to it since that big PvE skill update you are referencing…

The update you are thinking of that buffed the Eye of the North PvE skills came our about 3 weeks prior to the 1 year aniversory of Eye of the North. This was back in August of 2008, not new at all.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20080807

It looks like the wiki supports what I’m saying though, because each skill’s history is logged since they were first added to the wiki years back.

Anyways, ANet’s stance on vertical power progression priory to Guild Wars 2 was also not to do it, as should be evident by them actually nerfing Ursan Blessing when people weren’t letting others into groups because they weren’t at a certain title tier. I find it odd that you continue to use that when ANet’s response would indicate their stance on vertical progression is what I’m pointing out and not what you’re pointing out.

That all said, PvE skills were largely an augmentation to parts of builds and their effectiveness, not the whole thing (except for the couple builds we mentioned, but even those as mentioned like every other skill had their power progression just naturally come from playing the story). On the other side, Guild Wars 2’s vertical progression is attribute based, and attributes impact everything about a build, not just one to three of it’s skills. You’re talking apples and oranges, it’s all fruit but two very different things.

Vayne.8563:

A fact is a fact. Me saying anyone who’s looked into would know the fact isn’t condescending, in spite of the fact you want to paint me that way. It’s just not true.

Please learn the difference between method and content. It’s not necessarily what you say but the manner. And a fact is only a fact if it is supported by evidence. The assumption that you cannot disagree unless you haven’t looked into it is a ridiculous statement by itself. Research and their conclusions aren’t always as exact and reliable as you want. It’s always based on known variables at the time and needs context. So it’s really always possible that research is wrong in the end. Either by exception or evolution for example. Again you are too black and white in such things and make grand statements without the supporting evidence.

Vayne.8563:

It would be like me saying anyone who looked into fast food restaurants would find out that McDonalds is a big one.

No it wouldn’t.

Vayne.8563:

I have very specific stats from multiple forums over the years, not one or two. Most recently was guildwars2forum.com when it was up. I know EXACTLY how many people looked at pages every day and exactly how many people posted. Not a guess. Real experience.

So you’ve had some experience. Great. Things change, times change and your conclusions might be wrong about them or might not be representative. I doubt you did a proper test run accounting for all kinds of variables.

This is the difference between saying “it’s a fact” and “what I’ve seen in my experience”.

Vayne.8563:

I’ve experienced the same thing in the dozen or so yahoo groups I’ve run over the years. And on other forums.

Nice story. Saying that you have experience and such is still not evidence.

Vayne.8563:

Unless you’re in a business where you literally have to post, the biggest percentage of people on forums will be lurkers. You don’t have to accept this as true, but it doesn’t make it less true.

We don’t know…and that’s the real truth.

Please understand that I am not saying that it isn’t true. I am saying that you present your points as fact without providing evidence. Without evidence I cannot accept it as fact. I just don’t like it when people say something is a fact so casually when in fact there is no proper evidence at hand. Again there is a difference between “it’s a fact” and “what I’ve experienced”.

I think personally that there are quite a few lurkers. Just my feeling, also based on some experience. That makes it my opinion. An opinion can be right and wrong. But how many people are lurkers? Are they always lurkers or also post? How many visits do they make? What do they read and what don’t they read? What’s the percentage of lurkers vs posters? What’s the percentage compared to the total player base? Me, I have no idea. So I wouldn’t call my opinion facts.

You? You present it as facts without actually providing clear evidence. We’ll just have to take your word for it. But I don’t believe you’ve done a proper experiment and test to be able to present your experience as facts at all. So what you call facts I call opinion.

Vayne.8563:

As for forums, very often forum conversations evolve in threads. Yes, I started talking about one aspect of the manifesto and other things were brought up. I suppose we could close this thread and open another thread to continue those conversations, but I’m pretty sure that’s not all that efficient.

Or we could’ve had this discussion in one of the existing threads, but perhaps your ego needed a new one in your name. So far I don’t see anything it hasn’t added anything that couldn’t have been added in the existing thread(s).

The manifesto was the ideal. I don’t think many of us expected them to meet all those ideals at launch, but we at least expected them to do what they could and then work on finding ways to close the gap between the ideal and the actual product over time.

They fell a bit shorter than some hoped, but there was still a lot of reason to hope that they could find ways to improve on their achievements and fulfill the game’s full potential.

I think the problem is that not only have they failed to advance the work they made towards the ideals in the manifesto, but it sometimes feels like they have abandoned them almost entirely as they move the game further from, not closer to, the exceptional.

The rate at which they are falling back on the old, failed MMO design paradigm the game sought to break is of concern to people who understood what the game was trying to do, how close they actually came and how far they have fallen since release.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

A fact is a fact. Me saying anyone who’s looked into would know the fact isn’t condescending, in spite of the fact you want to paint me that way. It’s just not true.

snip

Vayne.8563:

It would be like me saying anyone who looked into fast food restaurants would find out that McDonalds is a big one.

No it wouldn’t.

Vayne.8563:

I have very specific stats from multiple forums over the years, not one or two. Most recently was guildwars2forum.com when it was up. I know EXACTLY how many people looked at pages every day and exactly how many people posted. Not a guess. Real experience.

So you’ve had some experience. Great. Things change, times change and your conclusions might be wrong about them or might not be representative. I doubt you did a proper test run accounting for all kinds of variables.

This is the difference between saying “it’s a fact” and “what I’ve seen in my experience”.

Vayne.8563:

I’ve experienced the same thing in the dozen or so yahoo groups I’ve run over the years. And on other forums.

Nice story. Saying that you have experience and such is still not evidence.

Vayne.8563:

Unless you’re in a business where you literally have to post, the biggest percentage of people on forums will be lurkers. You don’t have to accept this as true, but it doesn’t make it less true.

We don’t know…and that’s the real truth.

Please understand that I am not saying that it isn’t true. I am saying that you present your points as fact without providing evidence. Without evidence I cannot accept it as fact. I just don’t like it when people say something is a fact so casually when in fact there is no proper evidence at hand. Again there is a difference between “it’s a fact” and “what I’ve experienced”.

I think personally that there are quite a few lurkers. Just my feeling, also based on some experience. That makes it my opinion. An opinion can be right and wrong. But how many people are lurkers? Are they always lurkers or also post? How many visits do they make? What do they read and what don’t they read? What’s the percentage of lurkers vs posters? What’s the percentage compared to the total player base? Me, I have no idea. So I wouldn’t call my opinion facts.

You? You present it as facts without actually providing clear evidence. We’ll just have to take your word for it. But I don’t believe you’ve done a proper experiment and test to be able to present your experience as facts at all. So what you call facts I call opinion.

Vayne.8563:

As for forums, very often forum conversations evolve in threads. Yes, I started talking about one aspect of the manifesto and other things were brought up. I suppose we could close this thread and open another thread to continue those conversations, but I’m pretty sure that’s not all that efficient.

Or we could’ve had this discussion in one of the existing threads, but perhaps your ego needed a new one in your name. So far I don’t see anything it hasn’t added anything that couldn’t have been added in the existing thread(s).

Sure we’ve had this conversation in previous threads. End of the world time. The problem is, most of the forums are repeat threads. A good percentage anyway. So saying that this thread is repeating what was said before means little.

In fact, most forum threads are repeat threads from other forums from other games. We should have open world dueling was a thread in every game forum that didn’t have it I can think of. Same with open world PvP. Same was imbalance of professions. Some with not enough end game content.

Maybe we should ban every thread the repeats stuff and have like one post. Because that’s what you’d end up with.

As for the rest of it, it’s clear to me you don’t get me and frankly that’s fine. You think that you have the moral high ground because you don’t like the way I say things. Well, I dont’ particularly like the way you say things either. The difference is, I’m not the one complaining about it, or singling you our, or anyone else.

What I see on these forums is more akin to bullying than it is to constructive criticism. And it’s okay if you all want to gang up on me, because you can’t affect me in any significant way.

And lest you think this is just my opinion, there are quite a few people who think I’m bullied on these forums and wonder why I put up with it. I always tell them the same thing.

Because forum posters can’t hurt me.

You guys are kind of cute.

Klawlyt.6507:

You guys are kind of cute.

I think so. lol

I was trying to stay away from this this one but that last one took the cake. You have an obvious post history, which entails creating controversy for the sake of controversy. This thread is no different.

It’s a subject that due to it’s wording can be argued any which way regardless of being correct. I think you know that and that is the reason you started it….a podium of opportunity on which you capitalized to feed off the drama.

Rather than answering questions or addressing points you continually twist words to keep the drama going….it gets old and has gotten old.

Of all the horse pocky I’ve seen in this forum…….You being bullied? Really? Really? (rhetoric btw, I don’t want a reply)

Shockwave.1230:

Vayne.8563:

Shockwave.1230:

I strongly disagree with the argument that people are taking the manifesto out of context. I believe what we have is people like me who saw the manifesto and its language and realized it happened to be consistent with our current understanding of what kind of gaming company ANet was. They were a players company, in my eye, that catered towards a crowd who didn’t want vertical power progression, preferred horizontal progression, and didn’t even know what time gated rewards were other than BDay gifts.

The change from those positions is drastic, and there don’t seem to be any modern games on the market like the original Guild Wars, not that everyone necessarily would switch due to lore, loyalty, and other reasons. That said, ANet made a one of a kind game for an audience that is no longer catered specifically to, therefore they are upset. The manifesto is what made many believe Guild Wars 2 would cater just as much to ANet’s original audience, therefore the manifesto gets a lot of heat.

How widespread this actually is remains to be seen, but I know applies to me and at least a dozen people I play with. Not that I view GW2 as a bad game, but it’s not on the same level as Guild Wars. I hope as time goes on ANet phases out the gating of vertical progression and makes obtaining max stat gear more trivial, and I would also hope they do a better job at making the game feel less punishing when it comes to character build and playstyle flexibility. They should also strike a better balance with timegated rewards. I believe these are the three biggest issues people have with ANet’s designs.

Except that the manifesto didn’t mention progression at all. It’s incorrect to suggest that it did. Nor did it mention vertical or horizontal progression.

It’s one thing to say that I know Anet and they changed, but quite another to say Anet put out a manifesto that said it.

I don’t think the company has changed as much as you did, but it has certainly evolved, that much I do know. But I don’t think adding in one tier of gear that’s not even completely in the game in 6 months, a tier of gear they said was planned for release but didn’t make it no less, makes them a game that centers on vertical progression.

I think people are making a mountain out of a molehill with ascended gear, and I know I’m not alone in this.

But none of this has ANYTHING to do with the manifesto. Not one thing.

I wouldn’t say evolved. That implies a positive progression, which overall is not what I see between the ANet of Guild Wars and the the ANet of Guild Wars 2. Their philosophies have shifted. This game makes people feel like they have to play around ANet’s schedule instead of their own. This game doesn’t naturally put everyone on an equal playing field when it comes to character power. This game is designed to be inflexible for PvE and WvW character builds. This game is also designed to be unnecessarily punishing in regard to people’s time, so much so that someone like myself feels compelled to buy gems to get gold for buying or crafting exotic gear, or crafting mats to level up an alt so they can play through the story without having to do things they don’t want to do.

I personally don’t want to have to pay/play extra to play the game the way I want to play it, especially when someone else who wants to play it a different way doesn’t pay extra at all, and even comes out ahead converting gold to gems, which is fine, but paying extra for my preferred way to play isn’t.

All of these things do not indicate evolution to me, but rather steps backwards.

I’m genuinely curious to know some specific reasons why you feel the PvE and WvW design is inflexible in regards to builds. I have 2 builds I frequently switch between on my necro for both, and I know there are more builds out there. My warrior, mesmer, and thief are the same way. The only argument here, really, is the current zerk meta of PvE, which I tend to agree with, although with some caveats.

Also why you feel the need to buy gems for gold just to craft exotics? I’ve bought plenty of gems, but they all went to silly things like quaggan backpacks, halloween costumes, and mini pets. I have 6 level 80’s all geared in full exotics. 4 of them even have a second full set of exotics for a secondary build. 3 of them have ascended rings and amulets. and my main has all 6 ascended trinket slots filled. I got all of this by simply playing the game, saving my gold and tokens, and spending them accordingly. Granted, it took me hundreds of hours, and I’ve been playing since pre-launch, but gear isn’t meant to be handed out freely. Earning it is what gives the game longevity.

Fortuna.7259:

Vayne.8563:

No, it doesn’t depend on that. It depends on people not substituting definitions for something ALREADY DEFINED IN A DOCUMENT. Colin DEFINED what grind was fort he purposes of what he was saying. He said it straight out. It’s not some hidden code. Then two lines later, he referred to grind AGAIN, in which case in any common usage of English as a language, it would use the same definition.

When you take a line from a paragraph and use it to mean something that it was never intended to mean, it’s called taking it out of context. Because without the first defining usage of the word, it MIGHT mean something else…but in context, it can only mean one thing. Or at very least can’t mean gear grind.

The fact that some people won’t acknowledge this doesn’t make it less true.

There is no definition. He uses the word grind once. Then he uses it again. Your “definition” is only your inference from a single sentence. Hence, you are the one fabricating a view from one very tiny portion of a text and taking it out of context.

If you look at the manifesto holistically, the inclusion of a description of the “gear grind” that you are excusing would completely clash. Your analysis of who didn’t lie and how they didn’t lie is beside the point. Of course a short video isn’t going to tell you everything that is and isn’t in a product as complex as an MMO. But this video was intended to represent the product. As it turns out, it misrepresented the product. Period.

I just think you are completely wrong. You’re basically saying he can’t infer context when looking at context… that’s illogical.

Fortuna.7259:

Xenon.4537:

Ok, yes it was a tool to create hype, you’re absolutely right about that, but backhanding it by saying it’s dishonest is just silly. Point me to any advertizement that is 100% honest. I think the problem is people approaching the manifesto with the same attitude as approaching a dictionary or encyclopedia. This was just a video of some human beings trying to hype up their product that they were very excited about, not scientific documentation to be analyzed. People take the manifesto way too seriously, and take this perceived “betrayal” way too personally.

Again with this ‘but everyone does it!’ logic? I suppose everyone has to be 100% innocent before we can hold anyone accountable for their actions? “Little boys kill ants, so while my client may have killed those people, he isn’t guilty!” Mmm-hmm.

And then you present the ‘some people are overreacting, therefore everyone is overreacting’ logic as well. I don’t care if some people act like their life has ended. That doesn’t stop others from holding developers accountable in an appropriate manner.

I bolded an important word in your post. I’m not saying its wrong to hold people accountable. What I’m saying is it’s not appropriate in this case.

Essence Snow.3194:

I was trying to stay away from this this one but that last one took the cake. You have an obvious post history, which entails creating controversy for the sake of controversy. This thread is no different.

It’s a subject that due to it’s wording can be argued any which way regardless of being correct. I think you know that and that is the reason you started it….a podium of opportunity on which you capitalized to feed off the drama.

Rather than answering questions or addressing points you continually twist words to keep the drama going….it gets old and has gotten old.

Of all the horse pocky I’ve seen in this forum…….You being bullied? Really? Really? (rhetoric btw, I don’t want a reply)

When people get personal (as some have), and unite in that, it’s called bullying. Yes, really. I’ve had other people, complete strangers, message me and tell me that I shouldn’t put up with the bullying. It doesn’t personally affect me, but when people try to isolate, insult, and in general railroad someone, there’s nothing else to call it.

Contrary to your thoughts, I’m not trying to troll. I see whole pictures. I never look at trees, only forests. It’s something that I’ve always done. I see the manifesto as part of something larger. There was, when it came out, a conversation that I remember quite clearly. It was explained by Anet six ways till sunday.

People can intrepret it how they want, but that doesn’t make it right. If the author of a book tells you what the book is about, you can disagree with him, but it doesn’t change what he meant. The most you can say is that he didn’t express himself well. Which is very different from lying (which is what some people claim Anet has done).

I don’t argue for the sake of argue. I argue against this sort of thing because I think it’s a symptom of a deeper problem. And I don’t really care if you understand why I do it nor not.

It’s not your call.

When a dog bites a child that’s been non-stop poking it, it is not necessarily a vicious dog. It is most likely a response due to the child poking at it incessantly. I can very much see how that might be the case here.

Essence Snow.3194:

When a dog bites a child that’s been non-stop poking it, it is not necessarily a vicious dog. It is most likely a response due to the child poking at it incessantly. I can very much see how that might be the case here.

If people don’t like my opinion, they can’t not respond to it. It’s no excuse for the kind of behavior I’ve been seeing and I’m not the only one one who feels this way by a long shot.

Vayne.8563:

Essence Snow.3194:

When a dog bites a child that’s been non-stop poking it, it is not necessarily a vicious dog. It is most likely a response due to the child poking at it incessantly. I can very much see how that might be the case here.

If people don’t like my opinion, they can’t not respond to it. It’s no excuse for the kind of behavior I’ve been seeing and I’m not the only one one who feels this way by a long shot.

This. I have a list of people that I will not engage with anymore. It’s just a waste of time. I recommend other adopt a similar strategy. If you don’t feel like the other party is willing to listen and discuss then talking past each other is pointless. (Not saying anyone in particular here falls into this category. I imagine it would be different for everyone).

Good thing they closed my thread so we could come to this one, which is full of ad-hominim fighting and vitriol. :P

All I wanted to see in my thread was how people felt about it. There’s not going to be an objective truth on this, because trailers are ambiguous. On top of that, Arenanet’s language in the Manifesto was ambiguous.

Do people really think we’re all just making it up? That the people who take “we don’t want you to grind” as being true for this game are just fanboys or work for Arenanet? Is that a joke? Really? If so, I’ll just leave these forums and not come back, because at this point language and conversation are dead. Conversely, it needs to be acknowledged that the people who feel lied-to or cheated have a valid perspective in some ways and make some good points.

As long as we keep accusing each other of being liars, fanatics, evil, etc., we might as well not even talk to each other… or rather, talk past each other.

Xenon.4537:

I’m genuinely curious to know some specific reasons why you feel the PvE and WvW design is inflexible in regards to builds. I have 2 builds I frequently switch between on my necro for both, and I know there are more builds out there. My warrior, mesmer, and thief are the same way. The only argument here, really, is the current zerk meta of PvE, which I tend to agree with, although with some caveats.

Also why you feel the need to buy gems for gold just to craft exotics? I’ve bought plenty of gems, but they all went to silly things like quaggan backpacks, halloween costumes, and mini pets. I have 6 level 80’s all geared in full exotics. 4 of them even have a second full set of exotics for a secondary build. 3 of them have ascended rings and amulets. and my main has all 6 ascended trinket slots filled. I got all of this by simply playing the game, saving my gold and tokens, and spending them accordingly. Granted, it took me hundreds of hours, and I’ve been playing since pre-launch, but gear isn’t meant to be handed out freely. Earning it is what gives the game longevity.

I don’t have much time, and I devote a lot of it to story and dungeons and fractals with a bit of roaming in WvW. But basically I don’t have much game wealth. Builds are so reliant upon attributes and gear is so expensive, especially the good mods, that I can barely afford 1 full exotic set, and I have 3 level 80’s. So basically I have to play with kitten stats. I can’t afford to have exotic gear catered to each build I want to play. I also am used to Guild Wars where once you had your skills changing my build was as simple as swapping my head gear and swapping skills and manually adjusting my attribute distribution.

Xenon.4537:

Mickey.4207:

One of my favorite lines from Manifesto..
“I swung a sword, I swung a sword again, Hey! I swung a sword AGAIN!…….We just don’t want players to grind”

Even after such a long time it still cracks me up. Now people like OP can try and clarify what devs actually meant by things they said in manifesto but one can not change the fact that it was pure exaggeration and nothing but a tool to create hype to the point where it was completely dishonest.

Ok, yes it was a tool to create hype, you’re absolutely right about that, but backhanding it by saying it’s dishonest is just silly. Point me to any advertizement that is 100% honest. I think the problem is people approaching the manifesto with the same attitude as approaching a dictionary or encyclopedia. This was just a video of some human beings trying to hype up their product that they were very excited about, not scientific documentation to be analyzed. People take the manifesto way too seriously, and take this perceived “betrayal” way too personally.

So what you are saying is: They lied, plain and simple! They made something up to “fool” us out of our cash by lying and saying the game was something it wasn’t.
Thank you, thank you so much.
Now, if these other blinded by the light players could only see this, but alas I fear they are to far gone, I blame the water, there is something in it in some countries! /honest