Guild Wars 2

We’ve all had to do it and I found myself enjoying it once I tried it out. Even if you don’t like WvW it’s still pretty easy to get done.

I’m a player who prefers WvW. I’m really not into PvE at all, but I totally respect those that are. I understand, etc, etc…

My biggest complaint, and a really big complaint, is that I have to go to the PvE maps to get to 100%. Why do I have to do it?

Etc, etc.

Player that prefer WvW need to do all the PVE stuff to get it and thats a LOT OF PVE 100x more work than getting WvW thinky….

The fact is that to play the game, you don’t need 100%. The entire concept of 100% is that you should have at least seen pretty much everything the game has to offer. You seem to be saying that you want that 100% without actually having explored 100%, which seems odd and a little bit entitled.

In pretty much every game with any kind of open world, 100% completion is a designation reserved for those who have put in significant effort to go off the beaten path.

ANet sees WvW as a mixed mode, part PvE and part PvP. Since map completion is required to build a Legendary Weapon, the design intent seems to be that one explore all the areas that they consider to be at least in part PvE.

Also, it is in ANet’s best interest if players play more of the game. A greater variety of options on what to do in game tends to mean less likelihood of burnout due to doing the same thing over ad nauseam. As long as enticements to sample content generate more players expanding their horizons due to an enticement to try something they normally wouldn’t than players who quit in disgust because they can’t get X without doing Y, ANet comes out ahead.

A good solution to this would be to make WvW map completion separate from Tyria’s map completion, and split the two Gifts of Exploration between them. Give WvW map completion it’s own special icon too.

That way, PvE’rs wouldn’t have to play a mode they don’t like, and WvW’rs wouldn’t have to trudge through Tyria for a Gift of Exploration if they don’t like that.

But of course, ArenaNet won’t even bother with that.

brian.3049:

James 1:2-4
Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

“civil disobedience. . . is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience. Our problem
is that numbers of people all over the world have obeyed the dictates of the leaders of
their government and have gone to war, and millions have been killed because of this
obedience. . . Our problem is that people are obedient all over the world in the face of
poverty and starvation and stupidity, and war, and cruelty. Our problem is that people
are obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves, and all the while the grand thieves
are running the country. That’s our problem. "
-Howard Zinn (Failure to Quit, p. 45)

I dont’ know how it’ll happen in the new expansion.

But it “might” get easier “or harder” depend how they implemented the new map.

Because they are explorable zones with PoIs, Vistas, and Skill Points. And “100%” and “World Completion” are all-encompassing terms.

A better question is why they don’t require players to explore new zones when they come out as well, but I’m torn on whether that’s a good idea or not.

Nilkemia.8507:

A good solution to this would be to make WvW map completion separate from Tyria’s map completion, and split the two Gifts of Exploration between them. Give WvW map completion it’s own special icon too.

That way, PvE’rs wouldn’t have to play a mode they don’t like, and WvW’rs wouldn’t have to trudge through Tyria for a Gift of Exploration if they don’t like that.

But of course, ArenaNet won’t even bother with that.

That would lead to people farming WvW for the gifts.

What needs to happen is adding in two new achievements and turning the current one into the do x of y achievements, like they did for wintersday. Doing both rewards ap, the gifts and the title. The two parts would just reward ap.

Eh, not likely. To be able to do that effectively would require either one side pretty much controlling the entirety of the WvW maps, or all three sides coming to an agreement to take turns rotating on the maps for it.

And even if they managed to do all that, so what? The Gift of Exploration has only 3 things you can do with it:

- To combine with another Gift to make another gift for the legendary process,

- Or sell to a vendor for 6 silver and 40 copper,

- Or throw away.

There is still much much more to making a legendary weapon. Being able to get the Gift of Exploration faster won’t change the rest of that. So, splitting the map completions for Tyria/WvW would be a good solution. Both PvE’rs and WvW’ers would benefit.

Indigo, to make mapping WvW more bearable for you here are a few tips:

1. Find a guild, group of friends or advertise in the LFG and map WvW as a group.

2. Start mapping WvW early in your world exploration. Maps rotate and different weeks and differents times of the day net different results. Doing it this way you can map what your server controls and most likely not even see an enemy player.

3. Use mobility, defensive and invisi like builds to make mapping faster. This can also help you escape most fights. Sometimes a friendly wave will allow you safe passage if all else fails. Just don’t expect kindness in return;-)

Dasenthal.6520:

Found one of my old posts that applies:

Dasenthal.6520:

johnnymiller.5968:

Skynet.7201:

I’d prefer the removal of WvW from map completion entirely. I imagine it’s a nightmare for people that only play PvE.

Agree with this. Have completion for one character & still play world vs world on a part time basis.
Also understand the idea is to get people into world vs world, yet players with no interest in this format of the game are kittened.
Generally the easiest opportunity is when your server is lucky enough to be on the dominating end of lopsided world vs world rounds.

How do you guys feel about players who wvw exclusively though? Are we not allowed to like shinies? We have to go PvE if we want any shiny weapon, and yet we don’t make forum posts complaining (largely because we realize we’re the minority)about being locked out of dungeon skins, or luminescent skins (specifically referencing things available in Spvp, because Spvp still does not equal wvw).
Yet you’re complaining about 4 maps:
76 Points of Interest
13 Skill points
40 vistas.
25 Waypoints (All given btw)
and yet…
There are
301 hearts (Not included in wvw)
646 Points of interest (722 total- 76 listed above)
189 skill points (202 total- 13 listed above)
226 vista’s (266 total -40 listed above)
482 Waypoints (507 total – 25 listed above)

Total all that up (using totals)= Hearts + POI’s+ SP+ V’s+ WP’s =1998 things need for map completion.
Things need for wvw map completion = Hearts (0) + POI’s (76) + SP (13) +V’s (40) +WP (Functionally 0, but i’ll give you the benefit of the doubt 25)=154

154/1998= roughly 8%
You guys (PvE’ers exclusively) have to play 8% of the game you don’t like to get your legendary (or your achievement, what ever the motivator is). We (WvW’ers exclusively) have to play 92% (more than 11 times as much) of the game that we don’t want to for our legendaries (I don’t know a single WvW’er who actually has the nerve to say “I just wanted the achievement” so…)
And guess what: we do it, we might cuss and moan to our guild mates, but we do it. So, like I said earlier:

Dasenthal.6520:

SideNote:
If you want legendary but don’t want wvw: Buy the kitten.
If you don’t want legendary but want map completion: Deal with the kitten
If you want map completion but refuse to deal with the kitten: Live without the Kitten.

Cheers!

~I apologize (in advance) if this quote is a little more aggressive than the thread it’s posted in. It just saves me a lot of time quoting it/myself instead of recreating it every time.

Dasenthal.6520:

Dasenthal.6520:

Found one of my old posts that applies:

Dasenthal.6520:

johnnymiller.5968:

Skynet.7201:

I’d prefer the removal of WvW from map completion entirely. I imagine it’s a nightmare for people that only play PvE.

Agree with this. Have completion for one character & still play world vs world on a part time basis.
Also understand the idea is to get people into world vs world, yet players with no interest in this format of the game are kittened.
Generally the easiest opportunity is when your server is lucky enough to be on the dominating end of lopsided world vs world rounds.

How do you guys feel about players who wvw exclusively though? Are we not allowed to like shinies? We have to go PvE if we want any shiny weapon, and yet we don’t make forum posts complaining (largely because we realize we’re the minority)about being locked out of dungeon skins, or luminescent skins (specifically referencing things available in Spvp, because Spvp still does not equal wvw).
Yet you’re complaining about 4 maps:
76 Points of Interest
13 Skill points
40 vistas.
25 Waypoints (All given btw)
and yet…
There are
301 hearts (Not included in wvw)
646 Points of interest (722 total- 76 listed above)
189 skill points (202 total- 13 listed above)
226 vista’s (266 total -40 listed above)
482 Waypoints (507 total – 25 listed above)

Total all that up (using totals)= Hearts + POI’s+ SP+ V’s+ WP’s =1998 things need for map completion.
Things need for wvw map completion = Hearts (0) + POI’s (76) + SP (13) +V’s (40) +WP (Functionally 0, but i’ll give you the benefit of the doubt 25)=154

154/1998= roughly 8%
You guys (PvE’ers exclusively) have to play 8% of the game you don’t like to get your legendary (or your achievement, what ever the motivator is). We (WvW’ers exclusively) have to play 92% (more than 11 times as much) of the game that we don’t want to for our legendaries (I don’t know a single WvW’er who actually has the nerve to say “I just wanted the achievement” so…)
And guess what: we do it, we might cuss and moan to our guild mates, but we do it. So, like I said earlier:

Dasenthal.6520:

SideNote:
If you want legendary but don’t want wvw: Buy the kitten.
If you don’t want legendary but want map completion: Deal with the kitten
If you want map completion but refuse to deal with the kitten: Live without the Kitten.

Cheers!

~I apologize (in advance) if this quote is a little more aggressive than the thread it’s posted in. It just saves me a lot of time quoting it/myself instead of recreating it every time.

Yes, but when you need to go finish the achievement there is nothing in pve stopping you that you cannot accomplish alone. In pvp there is the possibility that no matter what you do solo you won’t be getting that point for a month or longer, which actually happened once when the servers in t1 were stagnant and didn’t rotate. Also being online at the right time for some of these things to happen in wvw is much more difficult if you can’t play a lot.

That said as long as servers are rotating colors it is easy if you make sure you hop on and get everything inside structures while your world owns them.

I’ve done it 8 times and I’m not a WvW person.

Start early in exploration as it can take weeks to do. If you’re willing to run with a zerg, that helps a lot. Use a live map and check it periodically when you can while playing. If you see something you need, run in and get it. Expect to die occasionally and have to run back. If you see something important available, run all your alts to it. For most servers, all you need is persistence.

http://wvwintel.com

First, you DONT NEED to do any of it, nothing forcing you to do world completion or work towards a legendary. If you decide these are things you want to work on, then you do whats required in these tasks. If you want dungeon master title you dont sit there and complain oh why do I have to do arah its so bad I have no interest in it etc etc.

Second, WvW is already required for a legendary. Before EoTM and AP chests dropped badges of honor like candy. Actual WvW was the only way to get them for the gift of battle. So it made perfect sense to combine mapping and wvw currency to encourage people to do some wvw. Also as someone who has done all 4 wvw maps on 10 toons, its NOT THAT BAD, you can easily do it solo. It might take some time sure but if your someone who needs to have everything right away then your someone who is always going to complain about something and never going to enjoy anything.

Third, if you dont have to do wvw maps, wvw’ers shouldnt have to do pve maps, and pvp’ers should just have a legendary added to a reward track. Now all that sounds pretty dumb doesnt it?

Legendaries were initially meant to be something that required “all-round” effort. So you had to do a particular dungeon, for instance. And you had to do open world PvE. And you had to go and actually kill enough players in WvW to get your Gift of Battle (the only way to get BoH’s at the start of the game). Obviously, most of these have been watered down, so that they can be gotten in other ways (eg. BoH’s through AP chests).

But having to do world completion in both open-world PvE and WvW remains. Which at least adds a little challenge (rather than grind/farming) to one part of getting a legendary. They even made it much easier for you, by adding some randomness to your colour, rather than having it based purely on ranking.

hazenvirus.8154:

Yes, but when you need to go finish the achievement there is nothing in pve stopping you that you cannot accomplish alone. In pvp there is the possibility that no matter what you do solo you won’t be getting that point for a month or longer, which actually happened once when the servers in t1 were stagnant and didn’t rotate. Also being online at the right time for some of these things to happen in wvw is much more difficult if you can’t play a lot.

That said as long as servers are rotating colors it is easy if you make sure you hop on and get everything inside structures while your world owns them.

I didn’t say that the 8% was easy, I’m simply stating that the amount of crap PvE’ers ‘have’ to do (compared to what they find enjoyable, or at the least tolerable) is easily out weighed by the amount of crap WvW’ers ‘have’ to do (compared to what they find enjoyable, or at the least tolerable). Especially if the PvE’ers listen, the same advice is given in every thread that pops up on this subject and it’s all fairly sound advice (I personally consider transferring servers for map completion to be a little iffy).

The answer to getting map completion in wvw is easily enough boiled down to “Pay attention, and be on at the right time” which can suck, if you don’t get to play often (I agree)… However the answer to getting map completion in PvE is equally boiled down to “spend, spend, and spend time”

Dasenthal.6520:

hazenvirus.8154:

Yes, but when you need to go finish the achievement there is nothing in pve stopping you that you cannot accomplish alone. In pvp there is the possibility that no matter what you do solo you won’t be getting that point for a month or longer, which actually happened once when the servers in t1 were stagnant and didn’t rotate. Also being online at the right time for some of these things to happen in wvw is much more difficult if you can’t play a lot.

That said as long as servers are rotating colors it is easy if you make sure you hop on and get everything inside structures while your world owns them.

I didn’t say that the 8% was easy, I’m simply stating that the amount of crap PvE’ers ‘have’ to do (compared to what they find enjoyable, or at the least tolerable) is easily out weighed by the amount of crap WvW’ers ‘have’ to do (compared to what they find enjoyable, or at the least tolerable). Especially if the PvE’ers listen, the same advice is given in every thread that pops up on this subject and it’s all fairly sound advice (I personally consider transferring servers for map completion to be a little iffy).

The answer to getting map completion in wvw is easily enough boiled down to “Pay attention, and be on at the right time” which can suck, if you don’t get to play often (I agree)… However the answer to getting map completion in PvE is equally boiled down to “spend, spend, and spend time”

Yeah, but you’ll never log in to get one poi in pve and have to give up because it just isn’t possible during your current session of play. You might not be able to finish map completion in pve in one go, but you’ll never feel like there is something blocking you from completing more and more during that session. I think that is the key difference that bothers people most.

IndigoAneirin.1590:

Why do I have to do it?

One of many ways to look at it:
Why would anyone want to do map completion? Since the only thing you get from it (apart from “good” feeling) is gift of exploration, I suppose you want to craft a legendary. And THAT is supposed to be a truly legendary journey taking you all around the world and making you try out a little bit (actually a huge bit) of everything in the game. I have done the WvW exploration 9 times and it was a breeze. Maybe, instead of complaining, you should think of a way how to that most efficiently and you will be done sooner than you think, you might even enjoy it.
People, who complain about WvW being required for map completion generally fall into two categories. First are people, who are missing that one last kitten vista in enemy keep and they simply won’t get their desired color for several weeks. Oh how very unfortunate. Second group is people, who haven’t actually even been to WvW, they most likely didn’t press B for the entirety of their playtime but they still complain how it should not be mandatory. If you find yourself to be in the former group, I can only tell you – you should’ve thought of this much sooner. If you started WvW explo as soon as you could, you would be finished by now. If you are the latter, I’m telling you – go ahead and join the epic battle in WvW, it is crazy funny and is a reaally nice break from the monotony of open-world PvE.

This topic has been beaten to death by both PVE and PVP purists alike.

The reward is neither PVE or PVP. It is a reward for seeing all that the game has to offer.

Don’t like that answer? Then you do with out. Because it ain’t changing any time soon.

A) This topic pops up very often, so it seems it is not so insignificant, don’t you think? If something keeps annoying or irritating players, then something might be really wrong with it

B) I was in the same school of thought as the OP; meanwhile I’ve done WvW map completion on 5 chars, currently doing it on the 6th; you have to overcome your worries about what WvW is – it is not nearly as bad/aggressive/depressing as you think

C) I still think it was not a very clever decision to “force” people to do something they do not like

D) I do not understand the reasoning “to get a legendary you have to have been in 100% of what the world is” when PvP is left out; why not force players to also have at least Dolyak rank in order to forge a legendary?

Halvorn.9831:

D) I do not understand the reasoning “to get a legendary you have to have been in 100% of what the world is” when PvP is left out; why not force players to also have at least Dolyak rank in order to forge a legendary?

I suspect the reason is that, at launch, you couldn’t use your legendary in PvP. PvP gear was an entirely separate thing.

To whoever presents the “I am a WvW player and have to do PvE, so eat it!” argument:

it’s hypocrisy.

You know you’ve bought a game of at least 92% cooperative PvE, so if you were so interested in open world PvP that you kept playing the same 2 WvW maps for more than 2 years, then probably you should’ve bought a PvP game in the first place instead of complaining that “you have to do PvE stuff”. You know, it’s like coming to a steak house and saying “Geez, I have to eat meat here if I want a full dinner!”.

The game was and is advertised as friendly, cooperative and casual, and WvW map completion is nothing more than a forced method of making people go to WvW.

To add another point: your server color changes every other week. You can get 100% literally without doing any wvw at all by simply having patience one step above severe ADD. Checking wvw regularly from the start of the character will almost guarantee you 100% of the wvw maps long before the pve ones.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

I’m a player who prefers WvW. I’m really not into PvE at all, but I totally respect those that are. I understand, etc, etc…

My biggest complaint, and a really big complaint, is that I have to go to the PvE maps to get to 100%. Why do I have to do it?

+1

Lishtenbird.2814:

The game was and is advertised as friendly, cooperative and casual, and WvW map completion is nothing more than a forced method of making people go to WvW.

Sigh. No. Just no.

- 1 title and 20 AP, the first time (only 5 AP from actually being in WvW, as it is 5 AP every 25% of world completion. So really, half of one daily).
- A little star you can’t even see yourself.
- 2 Gifts of Exploration, which are only useful for crafting a legendary.

Not forced. Not even a tiny bit.

I don’t really have problems with the full map completion. The only part I still find badly executed is that some parts of the WvW map are practically inaccessible unless you have the right colour. This was not a problem for me since I was not in a rush, but it would put me off if I needed the gift and found myself not being the needed colour for 2 months on end (which is how long it took me back in 2012). I still believe something needs to be done to make this less of a problem.

Before anyone brings up that you should just organise the whole server to get that last keep you need, if you can not see how unrealistic this is in almost every scenario, then there is little I can say.

Checking it from the start as the poster above is a good work around, but I still believe the problem should not exist in the first place.

Olvendred.3027:

Lishtenbird.2814:

The game was and is advertised as friendly, cooperative and casual, and WvW map completion is nothing more than a forced method of making people go to WvW.

Sigh. No. Just no.

- 1 title and 20 AP, the first time (only 5 AP from actually being in WvW, as it is 5 AP every 25% of world completion. So really, half of one daily).
- A little star you can’t even see yourself.
- 2 Gifts of Exploration, which are only useful for crafting a legendary.

Not forced. Not even a tiny bit.

It is a method to force people who want any combination of the things you listed, who would otherwise not play WvW. Just because you don’t feel these things are important does not mean it is not forcing. I personally do not feel that this is necessarily a bad thing, minus my little gripe posted above, but it does force part of the playerbase.

Galespark.7835:

Olvendred.3027:

Lishtenbird.2814:

The game was and is advertised as friendly, cooperative and casual, and WvW map completion is nothing more than a forced method of making people go to WvW.

Sigh. No. Just no.

- 1 title and 20 AP, the first time (only 5 AP from actually being in WvW, as it is 5 AP every 25% of world completion. So really, half of one daily).
- A little star you can’t even see yourself.
- 2 Gifts of Exploration, which are only useful for crafting a legendary.

Not forced. Not even a tiny bit.

It is a method to force people who want any combination of the things you listed, who would otherwise not play WvW. Just because you don’t feel these things are important does not mean it is not forcing. I personally do not feel that this is necessarily a bad thing, minus my little gripe posted above, but it does force part of the playerbase.

Not forced. No. Option to complete specific content to get specific reward, sure.

The rewards are either very small, or very specific.

Not forced. Not even a tiny bit.

Olvendred.3027:

Galespark.7835:

Olvendred.3027:

Lishtenbird.2814:

The game was and is advertised as friendly, cooperative and casual, and WvW map completion is nothing more than a forced method of making people go to WvW.

Sigh. No. Just no.

- 1 title and 20 AP, the first time (only 5 AP from actually being in WvW, as it is 5 AP every 25% of world completion. So really, half of one daily).
- A little star you can’t even see yourself.
- 2 Gifts of Exploration, which are only useful for crafting a legendary.

Not forced. Not even a tiny bit.

It is a method to force people who want any combination of the things you listed, who would otherwise not play WvW. Just because you don’t feel these things are important does not mean it is not forcing. I personally do not feel that this is necessarily a bad thing, minus my little gripe posted above, but it does force part of the playerbase.

Not forced. No. Option to complete specific content to get specific reward, sure.

The rewards are either very small, or very specific.

Not forced. Not even a tiny bit.

Title, exclusive star next to name, and a direct non-TP access to top-tier visual items in a vanity fashion game? Indeed, not necessary at all.

On topic:

I would prefer to have the 2 gifts of exploration split into 2 parts: the first (plus title and star) given for all PvE, and the second given for all PvE plus WvW. That way, PvEers won’t farm only WvW for gifts, and the WvW part would feel more rewarding.

Remove WvW from Map Completion. Add EotM to Map Completion.

Because on some highly populated Servers, your server might own everything but you will never get in because Queue for each map has 100 people in it.
Because on some low populated Servers, you can enter WvW at any time of the day, but you own nothing.

EotM does not suffer from these deficiencies.

Olvendred.3027:

Galespark.7835:

It is a method to force people who want any combination of the things you listed, who would otherwise not play WvW. Just because you don’t feel these things are important does not mean it is not forcing. I personally do not feel that this is necessarily a bad thing, minus my little gripe posted above, but it does force part of the playerbase.

Not forced. No. Option to complete specific content to get specific reward, sure.

The rewards are either very small, or very specific.

Not forced. Not even a tiny bit.

Given that you want specific reward, you are forced to do the content. Whether you have the option not go for that reward does not matter anymore if you decide to go for it. Whether you experience it as being forced or not also does not matter.

Using your logic, you are not forced to buy a game if you want to play it, because you could also have chosen not to play it. I am sure you see this does not make sense. Buying the game is the required action to achieve the goal, which is playing it. Just as completing the map is required to achieve the goal, which is any combination of the rewards you get for that. So the generalisation: If taking a certain action is the only way to reach a goal, then you are forced to do said action to reach the goal. That you can also decide to not reach the goal is irrelevant.

If you want to redefine the meaning of forcing for yourself, that’s your right. I am sure people reading this are capable of seeing who of us define it closer to what it actually means when people speak about “forcing”.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Olvendred.3027:

Galespark.7835:

Olvendred.3027:

Lishtenbird.2814:

The game was and is advertised as friendly, cooperative and casual, and WvW map completion is nothing more than a forced method of making people go to WvW.

Sigh. No. Just no.

- 1 title and 20 AP, the first time (only 5 AP from actually being in WvW, as it is 5 AP every 25% of world completion. So really, half of one daily).
- A little star you can’t even see yourself.
- 2 Gifts of Exploration, which are only useful for crafting a legendary.

Not forced. Not even a tiny bit.

It is a method to force people who want any combination of the things you listed, who would otherwise not play WvW. Just because you don’t feel these things are important does not mean it is not forcing. I personally do not feel that this is necessarily a bad thing, minus my little gripe posted above, but it does force part of the playerbase.

Not forced. No. Option to complete specific content to get specific reward, sure.

The rewards are either very small, or very specific.

Not forced. Not even a tiny bit.

Title, exclusive star next to name, and a direct non-TP access to top-tier visual items in a vanity fashion game? Indeed, not necessary at all.

Are all titles “necessary”? Cause you have to do a lot of WvW to get all of them, as well as a vast amount of other specific content. Silverwastes, SAB, PvP, all sorts of holiday events, huge amounts of AP (which itself requires doing vast amounts of specific content), collections, crafting, dungeons, buying skins, buying minis, world bosses, activities, and of course, a whole other game, GW1. Have you been “forced” to do all of these things?

There are plenty of skins that require specific content to obtain. Are they all “necessary”? Is buying all the skins on the gemstore “necessary”? Is unlocking the skin of every single legendary “necessary”? Or is it only “necessary” to get a small component of two?

Or is it the star? Is that somehow “necessary”?

No, of course not. Calling them “forced” or “necessary” is ridiculous hyperbole.

All these things are optional rewards for completing optional content. If a player wants to get the specific reward, they have to do the specific content required for it. In not way are they forced to do anything.

Galespark.7835:

Given that you want specific reward, you are forced to do the content. Whether you have the option not go for that reward does not matter anymore if you decide to go for it. Whether you experience it as being forced or not also does not matter.

Using your logic, you are not forced to buy a game if you want to play it, because you could also have chosen not to play it. I am sure you see this does not make sense. Buying the game is the required action to achieve the goal, which is playing it. Just as completing the map is required to achieve the goal, which is any combination of the rewards you get for that. So the generalisation: If taking a certain action is the only way to reach a goal, then you are forced to do said action to reach the goal. That you can also decide to not reach the goal is irrelevant.

If you want to redefine the meaning of forcing for yourself, that’s your right. I am sure people reading this are capable of seeing who of us define it closer to what it actually means when people speak about “forcing”.

Actually, it’s you who has re-defined “forced.” Of course you have to do specific things to get specific rewards. But it’s you and you alone who has made the choice to go after those specific rewards, which are absolutely 100% optional. The game isn’t making you do anything, just as no one made you buy the game (which, as you rightly said, is absolutely 100% optional).

You are not forced. You are making a choice.

Olvendred.3027:

Lishtenbird.2814:

Olvendred.3027:

Galespark.7835:

Olvendred.3027:

Lishtenbird.2814:

The game was and is advertised as friendly, cooperative and casual, and WvW map completion is nothing more than a forced method of making people go to WvW.

Sigh. No. Just no.

- 1 title and 20 AP, the first time (only 5 AP from actually being in WvW, as it is 5 AP every 25% of world completion. So really, half of one daily).
- A little star you can’t even see yourself.
- 2 Gifts of Exploration, which are only useful for crafting a legendary.

Not forced. Not even a tiny bit.

It is a method to force people who want any combination of the things you listed, who would otherwise not play WvW. Just because you don’t feel these things are important does not mean it is not forcing. I personally do not feel that this is necessarily a bad thing, minus my little gripe posted above, but it does force part of the playerbase.

Not forced. No. Option to complete specific content to get specific reward, sure.

The rewards are either very small, or very specific.

Not forced. Not even a tiny bit.

Title, exclusive star next to name, and a direct non-TP access to top-tier visual items in a vanity fashion game? Indeed, not necessary at all.

Are all titles “necessary”? Cause you have to do a lot of WvW to get all of them, as well as a vast amount of other specific content. Silverwastes, SAB, PvP, all sorts of holiday events, huge amounts of AP (which itself requires doing vast amounts of specific content), collections, crafting, dungeons, buying skins, buying minis, world bosses, activities, and of course, a whole other game, GW1. Have you been “forced” to do all of these things?

There are plenty of skins that require specific content to obtain. Are they all “necessary”? Is buying all the skins on the gemstore “necessary”? Is unlocking the skin of every single legendary “necessary”? Or is it only “necessary” to get a small component of two?

Or is it the star? Is that somehow “necessary”?

No, of course not. Calling them “forced” or “necessary” is ridiculous hyperbole.

All these things are optional rewards for completing optional content. If a player wants to get the specific reward, they have to do the specific content required for it. In not way are they forced to do anything.

As people mentioned in the Halloween mini and Wintersday tonic threads, when someone advocates video game mechanics which are displeasing to a lot of people instead of satisfying by saying that it’s “optional”, there is a problem.

Do I feel forced grinding SW for the exclusive title? Yes I do. It is repetitive, it is tedious, there is too much RNG, but I need that title because the title perfectly matches my “light” themed character. In an RPG with no gear grind, making my character perfect is end game.

Do I feel forced grinding WvW for completion? Yes I do. I cannot opt out of WvW even if I do not want to do it.

Do I feel forced grinding for ascended? No I don’t, I can do it naturally by playing stuff I want.

World completion shouldn’t even exist. It only acts as a limitation. Why do the new zones not have map completion? It’s not like it’s hard to implement. Either they don’t want to reward players or it’s because of world completion. They can’t simply update world completion because that would cause complaints and offering map completion that didn’t count would cause confusion – support tickets.

World completion should be made into something generic, such as “Explorer” and simply be based on either how many zones you’ve completed or a certain amount of hearts, PoIs, vistas, etc. What’s going to happen if they release a new continent or the rest of the zones? Eventually the original world completion will be eclipsed by new content.

As for WvW being included, it’s simply to encourage players who would otherwise not bother. The tournaments/achievements are for the same reasons. A lack of participation is devastating to PvP.

You need to think this through just a bit more I’m afraid. As I said, having that choice is not relevant for being forced.
Yes, you have a choice. You are not forced to pick a specific option to be able to play the game. You can decide not to go for the rewards of map completion or you can choose to go for them. The game remains playable either way.

However this thread is not about being able to play the game. This thread is about people that already made that choice and decided to go for the rewards. From that point on, they are forced to do the required actions.

Likewise, you are not required to buy the game in order to live your life. However, you are required to buy it if you want to play it. The choice and the forcing as a result of one option of that choice are not to be confused with each other. But seeing as you completely missed the point of my analogy, I can only conclude that you do not understand this principle, or more likely, are being purposefully dense in order to be able to keep your stance on this.

I am not going to keep going in circles with this, as there is no point in reasoning since you do not seem to be susceptible to reason right now. With this post my arguments should be clear, people can decide for themselves what to think of it. Good day to you.

Lishtenbird.2814:

As people mentioned in the Halloween mini and Wintersday tonic threads, when someone advocates video game mechanics which are displeasing to a lot of people instead of satisfying by saying that it’s “optional”, there is a problem.

The problem is that you find something displeasing to you, in a game where there is (apparently) something pleasing to you. The core game mechanics do not require you to do any of things you don’t want to do. You want all the rewards, but are unhappy about doing what is required to get them. The rewards are not not, of course, required, they are merely aesthetic.

Do I feel forced grinding SW for the exclusive title? Yes I do. It is repetitive, it is tedious, there is too much RNG, but I need that title because the title perfectly matches my “light” themed character. In an RPG with no gear grind, making my character perfect is end game.

You may feel forced, but of course, you are not. You can go on doing whatever it is you do like doing, except you have made your own decision that you really, really want a specific title.

Do I feel forced grinding WvW for completion? Yes I do. I cannot opt out of WvW even if I do not want to do it.

Again, you may feel forced, but you can absolutely opt out of ever setting foot in WvW for the entirety of your GW2 career. Lots of players have.

Do I feel forced grinding for ascended? No I don’t, I can do it naturally by playing stuff I want.

Good. Play in a way you enjoy, has always been how I play games. Given they are, after all, meant for enjoyment.

Galespark.7835:

You need to think this through just a bit more I’m afraid. As I said, having that choice is not relevant for being forced.
Yes, you have a choice. You are not forced to pick a specific option to be able to play the game. You can decide not to go for the rewards of map completion or you can choose to go for them. The game remains playable either way.

However this thread is not about being able to play the game. This thread is about people that already made that choice and decided to go for the rewards. From that point on, they are forced to do the required actions.

Likewise, you are not required to buy the game in order to live your life. However, you are required to buy it if you want to play it. The choice and the forcing as a result of one option of that choice are not to be confused with each other. But seeing as you completely missed the point of my analogy, I can only conclude that you do not understand this principle, or more likely, are being purposefully dense in order to be able to keep your stance on this.

I am not going to keep going in circles with this, as there is no point in reasoning since you do not seem to be susceptible to reason right now. With this post my arguments should be clear, people can decide for themselves what to think of it. Good day to you.

If you make a free choice to do something, you are, by definition, not being forced. I’m not the one who is avoiding ‘reason’ here.

Olvendred, since I agree with Galespark on this,

Galespark.7835:

But seeing as you completely missed the point of my analogy, I can only conclude that you do not understand this principle, or more likely, are being purposefully dense in order to be able to keep your stance on this.

I won’t be continuing our discussion.

Like in law, in video game design there is a letter and there is a spirit, and since video games are about the balance of challenge and reward which leads to enjoyment, sticking to the letter and ignoring the spirit won’t work.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Olvendred, since I agree with Galespark on this,

Galespark.7835:

But seeing as you completely missed the point of my analogy, I can only conclude that you do not understand this principle, or more likely, are being purposefully dense in order to be able to keep your stance on this.

I won’t be continuing our discussion.

Like in law, in video game design there is a letter and there is a spirit, and since video games are about the balance of challenge and reward which leads to enjoyment, sticking to the letter and ignoring the spirit won’t work.

GW2 came in with the express intention of providing a variety of different sorts of content and letting people choose between them. They also made specific rewards for each type of content, or for doing things across different types of content. But they made certain all these rewards were entirely optional – they were not necessary, nor did they give any advantage. Just skins, or titles, or other purely aesthetic rewards.

Choice in fact. Choice in spirit.

If you want to talk about something like the trait system, where having traits is something required for in-game advantage and completing your character, then we can talk about being “forced” to do things.

But sure. If you want to agree with calling me “purposefully dense,” then go ahead. You were no doubt “forced” to do so, to feel like your arguments were reasonable.

Because completing something means you did all of it, not 80%.

Zomaarwat.3912:

Because completing something means you did all of it, not 80%.

Oh… So since all borderlands and battlegrounds in the Mists should count for “all of it”, how about requiring us to do PvE map completion on all of the 51 servers, and not just one of them? Because completing something means you did all of it, not 1,96%. And yeah, add all the new zones too.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Zomaarwat.3912:

Because completing something means you did all of it, not 80%.

Oh… So since all borderlands and battlegrounds in the Mists should count for “all of it”, how about requiring us to do PvE map completion on all of the 51 servers, and not just one of them? Because completing something means you did all of it, not 1,96%. And yeah, add all the new zones too.

This is a hilariously bad argument, as was the earlier statement you made that the game is 92% open world PvE.

In the end, there will be no agreement on this subject. You’ll continue to make wild claims like this whenever the thread pops up and we’ll continue to avoid posting what we really think for fear of infractions.

Edit: I should note that the only thing keeping me from my third Legendary right now is WvW map completion. I’m on NSP and need vistas in both side keeps on green BL. Soooooo… it’s basically impossible. I just need to wait.

timmyf.1490:

This is a hilariously bad argument, as was the earlier statement you made that the game is 92% open world PvE.

As for 92% of PvE, see another poster’s calculations above. 92% or not, only an oblivious player would disagree that PvE is the main game mode which got most content and most updates.

As for hilarity, I’m simply making the same “logical” conclusions as the ones defending the current system here. If something from the Mists counts as “world”, then what about the other parallel worlds in the Mists? What about Southsun, Dry Top, Silverwastes? What about the moon above our head? What about Earth, since we from Earth know that Tyria is not the only inhabited planet? Why it tells us “100% world completion” if all those locations haven’t been explored by us?

I can respect people who argue that challenge-reward balance is fine in this achievement (“Legendaries should be acquired through legendary feats”).

I cannot, however, take serious the arguments of something being less displeasing as long as it is “optional”, or arguments of someone deserving to suffer in a video game because they themselves suffered more, or arguments which appeal to common sense but omit the places where it currently fails to work.

Lishtenbird.2814:

timmyf.1490:

This is a hilariously bad argument, as was the earlier statement you made that the game is 92% open world PvE.

As for 92% of PvE, see another poster’s calculations above. 92% or not, only an oblivious player would disagree that PvE is the main game mode which got most content and most updates.

I don’t imagine you visit the WvW subforum often, but WvW players are well aware of this fact, thank you.

Lishtenbird.2814:

As for hilarity, I’m simply making the same “logical” conclusions as the ones defending the current system here. If something from the Mists counts as “world”, then what about the other parallel worlds in the Mists? What about Southsun, Dry Top, Silverwastes? What about the moon above our head? What about Earth, since we from Earth know that Tyria is not the only inhabited planet? Why it tells us “100% world completion” if all those locations haven’t been explored by us?

I’m not sure where your inability to refrain from hyperbole and strawman assassination comes from, but I’ve said previously that new maps SHOULD count for world completion. Earth and the moon should not.

Lishtenbird.2814:

I can respect people who argue that challenge-reward balance is fine in this achievement (“Legendaries should be acquired through legendary feats”).

Your attitude toward players who think WvW map completion should count is anything but respectful.

Lishtenbird.2814:

I cannot, however, take serious the arguments of something being less displeasing as long as it is “optional”, or arguments of someone deserving to suffer in a video game because they themselves suffered more, or arguments which appeal to common sense but omit the places where it currently fails to work.

“Displeasing” is relative. WvW map completion may be displeasing to you and it may be enjoyable to me. I find gathering a full stack of each T6 mat to be displeasing, yet I don’t make threads here on the forums asking it to be removed from the process of creating a Legendary. Why? Because I can accept the requirements of the task set before me.

Legendaries have clear requirements. I can choose to complete them or I can choose not to complete them.

When you say you are “forced” to do things in a game, I can only laugh. Forced to grind for a title? A TITLE?

The point is that we each have different goals, interests, and motivations. If you expect for us to respect yours, you should try harder to respect ours.

timmyf.1490:

“Displeasing” is relative. WvW map completion may be displeasing to you and it may be enjoyable to me. I find gathering a full stack of each T6 mat to be displeasing, yet I don’t make threads here on the forums asking it to be removed from the process of creating a Legendary. Why? Because I can accept the requirements of the task set before me.

Again, the fact that one can play any game mode to get T6 mats and even sell extra stuff and buy those from TP gets conveniently omitted.

Lishtenbird.2814:

timmyf.1490:

“Displeasing” is relative. WvW map completion may be displeasing to you and it may be enjoyable to me. I find gathering a full stack of each T6 mat to be displeasing, yet I don’t make threads here on the forums asking it to be removed from the process of creating a Legendary. Why? Because I can accept the requirements of the task set before me.

Again, the fact that one can play any game mode to get T6 mats and even sell extra stuff and buy those from TP gets conveniently omitted.

You’re missing the point entirely. The process of acquiring a Legendary may include both “pleasing” and “displeasing” elements. That’s subjective and based on the player. They shouldn’t remove part of the process simply because some players dislike it.