Masculinity and Guild Wars 2: Research Study

Masculinity and Guild Wars 2: Research Study

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Posted by: Erasculio.2914

Erasculio.2914

As a female I don’t see the sexism. I just don’t see it. I’m not oppressed in any way or saddened by the video game industry. Yet here you two are, standing here, telling me that surely I am, I tell you that I’m not and then you call me something akin to small minded

I have never seen standing in front of me a woman from the gaming industry claiming she has been the target of sexism. I have never seen standing in front of me a woman from the gaming industry at all, for the records.

The difference is that I don’t think the entire world is limited to what I have seen standing in front of me. I have read multiple reports of multiple women complaining about the sexism in the gaming industry.

It’s amazing that you claim all those women to be liars. I wonder if you would be that brave if you were face to face with one of them.

“I think that players are starting to mature past the point of wanting to be on that
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

I have never seen standing in front of me a woman from the gaming industry claiming she has been the target of sexism. I have never seen standing in front of me a woman from the gaming industry at all, for the records.

The difference is that I don’t think the entire world is limited to what I have seen standing in front of me. I have read multiple reports of multiple women complaining about the sexism in the gaming industry.

It’s amazing that you claim all those women to be liars. I wonder if you would be that brave if you were face to face with one of them.

I don’t claim them to be liars, I think that they’re making up first world problems because their life is too good though. What is there to be upset about in the gaming universe? That husbands and boyfriends love their wives and go trough a huge amount of torture to save them? That women are too perfect – smart and beautiful? That women are too bland because they’re a second hand character, never mind that other men are too? That they have breasts?
When you start getting upset about the fact that a model in a commertial looks better than you, you know that you no longer have real problems. You’re not worrying about not having food to eat, you’re not worrying about getting abused and not being able to get anyone to defend you, you’re not worrying about being mutilated due to a tradition, you’re not afraid that you won’t get life insurance for being a woman, you probably have a nice paying job and a house too.
And then there are those that complain for money. They get payed thousands for sitting there and not doing anything, jut because they said that they were doing research.

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Posted by: Roven Leafsong.8917

Roven Leafsong.8917

Hi Fantastic Timez,

I’m curious as to why you chose Guild Wars 2 for your survey? I would have thought that a game that constructs and defines gender in a very specific and binary manner (even for non-human species that do not necessarily have to follow those stereotypes) makes it difficult to isolate what aspects of portrayal have come from players as opposed to developers.

If you can answer now that your survey is complete, I’d also be curious to know how you yourself define masculinity?

I find it quite interesting that a study on gender has apparently nothing to do with feminism research. I also found your response to Mirta’s question about that quite intriguing, because it almost seemed as though you used your gamer identity as a means of distancing yourself from any accusations of holding a feminist perspective.

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

5. What aspects of your character would you consider masculine, if any?

What? What aspect of our male characters do we consider masculine (as the survey specified it)? That’s a very odd question to ask.

Sounds like baiting to me. Answer none and its rather awkward as we would have created a male character that we dont recognize as masculine. Answer something and its just as awkward as it would describe what we like in a man.

Would “his strong tail” be an acceptable answer?

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Posted by: zenleto.6179

zenleto.6179

5. What aspects of your character would you consider masculine, if any?

What? What aspect of our male characters do we consider masculine (as the survey specified it)? That’s a very odd question to ask.

Sounds like baiting to me. Answer none and its rather awkward as we would have created a male character that we dont recognize as masculine. Answer something and its just as awkward as it would describe what we like in a man.

Would “his strong tail” be an acceptable answer?

It’s just a survey, there really aren’t any correct or incorrect answers. If I’d replied to this last night when I saw the thread first posted I would have said “None, besides the fact the character is male”. It’s just a survey.

Fire up the Hyperbowl ma, we’re going to town!

Would you like some hard cheeze with your sad whine?

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

It’s just a survey, there really aren’t any correct or incorrect answers. If I’d replied to this last night when I saw the thread first posted I would have said “None, besides the fact the character is male”. It’s just a survey.

Dont get me wrong, I think you are absolutely right. There are no correct or incorrect answers, only awkward answers.

But maybe I’m a poor judge. I’ve seen so much animé I barely even know what differentiate a man and a woman anymore.

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Posted by: Khal Drogo.9631

Khal Drogo.9631

I fail to see how being in a first world country have to do with sexism as there are many third world or developing countries that treat women fairly well. They tend to be Buddhist countries though.

Then again in a market dominated by males and companies catering to their tastes is not sexist at all. Unless more women play games that are not Farmville or Angry Birds (sexist right? but its the truth) you wont get a 50 Shades of Grey or Twilight style adventure game or have a booth in gaming conventions that is thronged by women. It may be the nature of the product – just like cosmetics.

That being said, I am not sure I like real life politics in GW2.

Apologies to those who may find my posts on GW2 forums offensive and hateful.

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Posted by: Kirschwasser.3972

Kirschwasser.3972

I fail to see how being in a first world country have to do with sexism as there are many third world or developing countries that treat women fairly well. They tend to be Buddhist countries though.

Then again in a market dominated by males and companies catering to their tastes is not sexist at all. Unless more women play games that are not Farmville or Angry Birds (sexist right? but its the truth) you wont get a 50 Shades of Grey or Twilight style adventure game or have a booth in gaming conventions that is thronged by women. It may be the nature of the product – just like cosmetics.

That being said, I am not sure I like real life politics in GW2.

… You know female gamers are almost exactly half the gaming populace and that many of them play the same AAA blockbusters as men play, right? … Right? You -did- manage to do two seconds of research before spouting something, right?

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

The questions:

1. What is your age and gender?
2. For how long have you been playing Guild Wars 2 and other MMORPGs?

The Following questions will focus on your main male character:

3. What are your character’s race, profession and personal story and what are your reasons for choosing them?
4. What are the things you enjoy doing the most with your character?
5. What aspects of your character would you consider masculine, if any?
6. Are there things in the game you would like to do with your character but are unable to? Can you give some examples?

1. 26 and male.
2. I have played Guild Wars 2 for at least 6 months total. I began playing in October but have taken several breaks since. I’ve played MMORPGs since around 2005.


3. Asura, Elementalist. His personal story is he created a weather control device and joined the Durmand Priory.

4. I tend to swap with my other characters but my elementalist was the first character I’ve done everything with. I’ve played him most in dungeons, fractals and run with guild in WvW.

5. None. I created him with a rather Nancy personality, he’s a creator, an artist, a gourmet cook and fashion oriented. Probably because my initial impression by the voice actor. Not demeaning the voice actor (dunno who he is, but I really do love the Asura Male PC VA) but it sounds a bit Nancy to me :-P

If it means anything, I do have another Asura Male character that I tend to play 2nd who is my main character’s near polar opposite. He’s a Warrior, his strongest attributes is his Norn-like physical strength, he’s one of the tallest Asura you’ll meet, and an intellectually focused individual (no appreciation for art or design, only function).

6. There are more emotes I’d like to do with all my characters. But I can’t think of any particular thing. If anything, I guess choose his dialog so he talks less hostile (but still a little hostile) to better fit the personality I imagine for him.

If I might suggest other questions for your study, perhaps ask about the appearance of the character or if their appearance plays a particular role in how the character’s masculinity is portrayed.

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Posted by: Khal Drogo.9631

Khal Drogo.9631

… You know female gamers are almost exactly half the gaming populace and that many of them play the same AAA blockbusters as men play, right? … Right? You -did- manage to do two seconds of research before spouting something, right?

And your sources too if you please. I dont recall reading any article ever that states unequivocally how many women play “AAA blockbusters” like COD for example.

Apologies to those who may find my posts on GW2 forums offensive and hateful.

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Posted by: zenleto.6179

zenleto.6179

It’s just a survey, there really aren’t any correct or incorrect answers. If I’d replied to this last night when I saw the thread first posted I would have said “None, besides the fact the character is male”. It’s just a survey.

Dont get me wrong, I think you are absolutely right. There are no correct or incorrect answers, only awkward answers.

But maybe I’m a poor judge. I’ve seen so much animé I barely even know what differentiate a man and a woman anymore.

LOL fair enough

Fire up the Hyperbowl ma, we’re going to town!

Would you like some hard cheeze with your sad whine?

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Posted by: Deamhan.9538

Deamhan.9538

… You know female gamers are almost exactly half the gaming populace and that many of them play the same AAA blockbusters as men play, right? … Right? You -did- manage to do two seconds of research before spouting something, right?

And your sources too if you please. I dont recall reading any article ever that states unequivocally how many women play “AAA blockbusters” like COD for example.

I immediately thought the same thing. Out of over 100 members in the guild I’m in, I would say less than 1/5th are female. I have the sneaky suspicion that many of the guilds are similar.

It’s quite known that men’s brains are hardwired more toward visual stimulus than female’s. So it’s not surprising that video games in general would be more appealing to males. You then get a self serving loop. You come out with neutral video games to find out that the majority of your customers are male. So you then make games that cater more to a male audience which then become more appealing to males and less appealing to females.

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Posted by: insanemaniac.2456

insanemaniac.2456

im glad im not tempted to respond to this survey since my main happens to be female (3 of my 7 chars are male, my 8th will be a male ranger when i decide to get gems)…

i actually feel like some of the changes suggested earlier would be legit. the OP wouldnt get a passing grade if i was on his committee. specifically because of the data collection method and his absolute refusal to provide guaranteed anonymity through a survey site, a basic tool of the trade.

JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions

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Posted by: Kirschwasser.3972

Kirschwasser.3972

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Posted by: Erasculio.2914

Erasculio.2914

It’s quite known that men’s brains are hardwired more toward visual stimulus than female’s.

That’s not exactly true, for the records. It’s true in a very specific kind of situation, but not regarding everything, and definitely not regarding a video game.

“I think that players are starting to mature past the point of wanting to be on that
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons

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Posted by: Khal Drogo.9631

Khal Drogo.9631

Nice try, two minutes of Google search but no relevant results. There is no breakdown of what kind of games do women (aka “almost half of the gaming population”) play. And they would most likely be mobile games or Farmville type of games, not “AAA blockbusters”. Feel free to point out where in your links is the contradictory evidence as highlighted in a scientific study.

Linking to journalistic articles that complain about sexism would smack of bias as journalists would tend to cherry pick studies that support their opinion.

Apologies to those who may find my posts on GW2 forums offensive and hateful.

(edited by Khal Drogo.9631)

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Posted by: Kirschwasser.3972

Kirschwasser.3972

Journalistic bias is a fair argument, but the first link is to the ESA. However it doesn’t, as you say, show the breakdown of what games are played.

I might try to find a more in-depth analysis of that, myself, but until then I can only offer the anecdotal evidence that most of the people I have on Steam are women and most of them play AAA games. I know that’s anecdotal and all… but that’s also 98% of what this thread has been so far.

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Posted by: Villious.8530

Villious.8530

He didnt even get a dozen requested responses before the thread went off on a tangent, like most threads here do. He probably ran away screaming.

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Posted by: Astral Projections.7320

Astral Projections.7320

He didnt even get a dozen requested responses before the thread went off on a tangent, like most threads here do. He probably ran away screaming.

He got 9 response then said thanks, that’s all I need. I’m assuming he abandoned the thread after that, since he didn’t need anything else.

And I have to think its strange. If all he needed was 9 more, didn’t he have to buy the game to post on this forum? He spent money for just those 9? Why not just get 9 more from whatever game sites he already had. It’s not like the questions he asked here would get different answers from other sites and even if they did, 9 isn’t enough to bring them out.

(edited by Astral Projections.7320)

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Posted by: Miflett.3472

Miflett.3472

I’m just going to go ahead and stop this here, because talks about feminism in gaming tend to go pretty sour pretty fast and there’s no point arguing the matter on the internet. Needless to say, I disagree entirely and don’t find “I’m a woman” to be a valid argument against the matter.

Also: I’m not arguing for women’s rights above men and neither are most feminists.

I’m going to end the discussion with
1. If I’m a female gamer and I don’t find the gaming industry being sexist towards me how is this not a valid argument? If they fight for all of us shouldn’t we then see that the fight is needed? And if most females don’t see it what does it tell you?
2. Then why are a) actual matters are nver discussed by feminists and what was protested by them recently was a man making a dongle joke in an IT conference, video games, females being drafted to the army, with the woman protesting against that saying that men should be drafted, because who else will protect the country (even though forced army service is silly), a bunch of feminists interrupting a male fatherhood conference with pulling the fire siren and cheering. Feminists ruined their name with their actions. If you are really for equal rights be an equalitarian and see for both rights of men and women.

The minority speaks for the majority, while placing the burden of proof on everyone but themselves. Real issues apply equally to men and women, I agree. We can tackle real problems without having to use gender as a qualifier. The gender street goes both ways.

Find answers where problems exist, not where they are placed.

I don’t know why I really responded, but I wanted to say my two cents as well. =]

Leader of Grim Omen [GO]

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Posted by: Star Ace.5207

Star Ace.5207

Given that masculinity/femininity are such social constructs, and quite irrelevant to me personally (given that men and women are individuals rather than stereotypes), I just can’t relate with the survey or its purported goals. I play 8 characters, 3 male and 5 female, and don’t play myself through them, but rather themselves in their own universe and background, of course with a little touch of “me” in each of them. The only male that is supposed to be more like me is not played as frequently, and even then, he gets to be himself rather than just my GW2 avatar. I enjoy playing all my characters because they are interesting personally to me, more than any need to represent myself or so-called “masculinity” in a game-I even don’t enjoy RPing “macho” male characters at all, even though I can and would given the right character.

In short, my characters (role-playing) are more important than gender issues, and totally don’t care whether they are seen as masculine/feminine-much like I myself don’t live my life trying to judge people based on such limited stereotypes.

No offense to the OP or anyone else, though, as I don’t see this as a big deal or worth it our time to insult ourselves and each other by belittling others for not seeing things the way we do.

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

The minority speaks for the majority, while placing the burden of proof on everyone but themselves. Real issues apply equally to men and women, I agree. We can tackle real problems without having to use gender as a qualifier. The gender street goes both ways.

Find answers where problems exist, not where they are placed.

I don’t know why I really responded, but I wanted to say my two cents as well. =]

exactly what I’m trying to say. We should solve problems for both sexes and solve real problems first before moving to the miniature ones. And we have oh so much of the real problems – certain group of people in places of the world truely not having rights, people lacking water, people lacking food, not enough jobs to employ people, etc. There’s lots and lots of problems, therefore it’s kind of angering to me when someone says that the main problem to focus on should be how sexist video games are against females.

I fail to see how being in a first world country have to do with sexism as there are many third world or developing countries that treat women fairly well. They tend to be Buddhist countries though.

Then again in a market dominated by males and companies catering to their tastes is not sexist at all. Unless more women play games that are not Farmville or Angry Birds (sexist right? but its the truth) you wont get a 50 Shades of Grey or Twilight style adventure game or have a booth in gaming conventions that is thronged by women. It may be the nature of the product – just like cosmetics.

That being said, I am not sure I like real life politics in GW2.

There are quite a number of female gamers. And developers do focus on females a lot. What else would you call all that eye candy in fighting games? Somehow if there’s a big breasted woman in a game, the company is being sexist against women, but a man with big pectorals jumping around in his undies is not mean to please female audience at all! That being said there’s probably more simulation, less violent games that women like than for example shooters. I personally love RPGs for the well made stories and detail put into them. I really enjoyed decorating my house in Oblivion, getting a partner in Skyrim and having conversations with my crew in Mass Effect. I like such tiny relationship details, I love simulation games like The Sims 2 (not 3 though), cities XL, hotel giant, theme hospital. I like planning rooms and making place look good and run efficient. Then I also like MMOs. For the community, for the outfits. And only then shooters, fighting games come in for me. Not all girls are the same though. Fact is gamer girls exist. However industry is really not against them and do develop for them.

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Posted by: Ultima Thule.3950

Ultima Thule.3950

I agree with Kirschwasser.

To Mirta and others who pointed out that these aren’t serious problems.

You cannot separate the gaming industry from the rest of a given society, inevitably it will reflect that society, since it is part of it.

From games produced in markedly misogynist countries in the east, where women are portrayed accordingly, to the more subtle ways of western countries.

I find depressing to read an article about the E3, for example, and very much the only women you see are “Booth Babes”, good role models don’t ya think? no developers, nor programmers, just some babes to leer at
— of course as I say before, the game industry is not more guilty of this than any other industry, just more of the same trash we see everywhere.

Girls growing up learn fast what society values, so there we go with surgery, with anorexia, to be just a body, because if you are a woman that’s the only thing that matters at the end — regardless if some people say otherwise, is after all not what people would say, is what people do.

And we always see them doing the same.

Not even going to enter in how many doors are closed for women working in this industry, because it will be very much as in any other industries.

Given that these are general problems that affect billions of people in the east and in the west, of course — matters. And its impact is too far reaching to even begin here. What society expect of them, their self image, the lack of confidence in their potential, how they relate to other people, the relationships, and the uglier consequences as violence and abuse against them.

Just to be clear. I defend individual rights. Each person must have the same rights as every other person. (Of course) and thus, I am against positive and negative discrimination.

The only way bias can be overcome is by formation, and how people are portrayed in the media is a vital part of it. it is by example everywhere how people learn social roles. If some gender, or group of people is consistently portrayed (in the more benign cases) as inconsequential — just the girls in the movie that the male hero invariably conquest, a sidekick, and in others, in pretty obvious demeaning ways; what the general public learns?

We are flooded with this. it is so much everywhere that you hardly notice it, we are conditioned to not notice it. It is just how things are.

BTW I am a woman too.

(Sorry for my English)

(edited by Ultima Thule.3950)

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Posted by: DarksunG.9537

DarksunG.9537

… What’s wrong with feminist research, anyhow?

Quite a bit. Unless you are referring to a person researching feminism. If you want to get some glimpses into why it’s a problem I’d watch some girlwriteswhat & manwomanmyth on youtube.

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Posted by: Ultima Thule.3950

Ultima Thule.3950

… What’s wrong with feminist research, anyhow?

Quite a bit. Unless you are referring to a person researching feminism. If you want to get some glimpses into why it’s a problem I’d watch some girlwriteswhat & manwomanmyth on youtube.

Kirschwasser stated that only wants the same rights for everyone.

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Posted by: Gehenna.3625

Gehenna.3625

Hello, my name is Ferdinando and I am a supervised researcher at Flinders University, Australia. I’m doing research investigating to what extent male gamers use conventional beliefs about gender in order to portray masculinity in Guild Wars 2. I’m interested in finding out your opinions, views and experiences when playing as a male character in Guild Wars 2. I’m looking for men who are 18 years old or older and play a male main character. However anyone can contribute and comment.

I find the premise for your research a bit odd to be honest. You say you want to investigate to what extent male gamers use conventional beliefs about gender etc. But you want to exclude males who play female characters. This doesn’t make sense to me for the following reason:

Male players who play female characters may indicate that they are not hung up on traditional views about masculinity or have a different way of looking at them or expressing them. How can you come to any useful conclusions about the extent if you exclude a group of male players?

Either your research goal is formulated incorrectly or you are setting yourself up for failure by excluding part of the needed demographic.

So are you trying to find out about the extent of traditional masculinity of male players or of male players who use a male main character because that’s not the same.

To give you an example: Traditional male masculinity includes things such as heterosexuality and mach behaviour. Would you not think that this is very much present for a male gamer who plays female characters because he thinks they’re hot? Would it not be a traditional masculine behaviour to objectify women and with that, wouldn’t playing female characters fit that bill?

In the end, I think you need to either make your research topic more specific or you need to include all male players to fit the current description.

It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here.

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Posted by: Fantastic Timez.3641

Fantastic Timez.3641

Hello, my name is Ferdinando and I am a supervised researcher at Flinders University, Australia. I’m doing research investigating to what extent male gamers use conventional beliefs about gender in order to portray masculinity in Guild Wars 2. I’m interested in finding out your opinions, views and experiences when playing as a male character in Guild Wars 2. I’m looking for men who are 18 years old or older and play a male main character. However anyone can contribute and comment.

I find the premise for your research a bit odd to be honest. You say you want to investigate to what extent male gamers use conventional beliefs about gender etc. But you want to exclude males who play female characters. This doesn’t make sense to me for the following reason:

Male players who play female characters may indicate that they are not hung up on traditional views about masculinity or have a different way of looking at them or expressing them. How can you come to any useful conclusions about the extent if you exclude a group of male players?

Either your research goal is formulated incorrectly or you are setting yourself up for failure by excluding part of the needed demographic.

So are you trying to find out about the extent of traditional masculinity of male players or of male players who use a male main character because that’s not the same.

To give you an example: Traditional male masculinity includes things such as heterosexuality and mach behaviour. Would you not think that this is very much present for a male gamer who plays female characters because he thinks they’re hot? Would it not be a traditional masculine behaviour to objectify women and with that, wouldn’t playing female characters fit that bill?

In the end, I think you need to either make your research topic more specific or you need to include all male players to fit the current description.

Hi Gehenna and thank you for your concerns. However, my research question and theoretical approaches benefit from not including certain male players. Of course this has its drawbacks but no research is perfect. Thanks

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

The reason I’m not suspicious of this, is because I’ve offered nothing (nor is anything asked) that can be used against me. My name is already shown all over the forums. The answers don’t ask anything that anyone could use to hack an account or scam me. Not even so much as an email addy.

I don’t think it’s a problem.

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

Kirschwasser stated that only wants the same rights for everyone.

if you do really want equal rights for everyone use this word:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/equalitarian
Feminism by definition itself focuses on only the rights of women. Which is not how we should go around equality.

You cannot separate the gaming industry from the rest of a given society, inevitably it will reflect that society, since it is part of it.

Yes, I agree with that. Now how are video games sexist towards women and not towards men?

From games produced in markedly misogynist countries in the east, where women are portrayed accordingly, to the more subtle ways of western countries.

Give examples of this. Actually give examples of games that you believe to be sexist instead of giving the general statement of “it is sexist”.

I find depressing to read an article about the E3, for example, and very much the only women you see are “Booth Babes”, good role models don’t ya think?

http://russellbulletin.com/2013/06/05/forbes-female-game-developers-wear-e3/ having in mind that these articles exist and from what I’ve seen from live footage of game representations that’s far from truth. There are plenty of female spokesmen and female developers out there.
And now you’re talking about sexualisation on the media. What’s wrong with that? Should we be ashamed of our bodies and hide them in long dresses? Media does the same for men mind you, but really, what is wrong with it? I like being able to wear skimpy clothing in reality and in games, I enjoy the looks, I enjoy my body and figure, even though it has lots of scars and far from perfect.

Girls growing up learn fast what society values, so there we go with surgery, with anorexia, to be just a body, because if you are a woman that’s the only thing that matters at the end

Really? Did you not grow up around aspiring mothers that forced you to study hard? Did you not grow in a society that expects you, like men, to get a job and to take it seriously? Are we in the 50s where all women have to do is to attract a man and the career choices are very limited?
And now what would you say to the growing number of men suffering anorexia? If you’re taking an image of a perfect woman given by society, take that of a perfect man as well. Both are not something you can get while being healthy. Both feel pressured by it. However take any other time in human history. Wasn’t it the same? Didn’t we value the unreachable ideal of beauty?

— regardless if some people say otherwise, is after all not what people would say, is what people do.

This is a really ban sentence to have in a discussion. It’s essentially “I don’t care what my opposition says to me”.

Not even going to enter in how many doors are closed for women working in this industry, because it will be very much as in any other industries.

Okay, do you have proof? Find articles of women programmers and developers being fired because they’re women. I’m in a university right now studying games development. The only reason there’s less women than men in it is because less girls are interested in an IT related job. If you enter humanitarian classes normally what you see is opposite – lots of girls, very little men. Is that sexist? No, it’s probably just influenced by how our brains work, females have a higher emotional understanding, men have a higher capacity for logic and rotating 3D figures. That doesn’t mean that an average Joe can’t study linguistics and an average Jane can’t study IT. It’s just means that less Joes and Janes will want to do that.

Given that these are general problems that affect billions of people in the east and in the west, of course — matters. And its impact is too far reaching to even begin here.

Big problems is what we solve first normally. Is that really your excuse for protesting for rights for women in the Middle East? “Oh I’m sorry I’m not going to save you from being whipped in public for driving a car, you see Lara Croft has big boobs in a game and that’s the real problem!”

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

Part 2:

What society expect of them, their self image, the lack of confidence in their potential, how they relate to other people, the relationships, and the uglier consequences as violence and abuse against them.

The thing is in your opinion woman have no self confidence because they’re over sexualized, therefore get no respect and people get violent against them. However from the researches that we’ve done it’s the exact opposite. Where the sexualization is let to flourish less kitten happens.
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/everyday_economics/2006/10/how_the_web_prevents_rape.html
Where women are encouraged to hide their body more violence happens against them.

I am against positive and negative discrimination.

There’s no positive discrimination. Discriminating against men isn’t positive. There’s only discrimination and we should solve it.

just the girls in the movie that the male hero invariably conquest, a sidekick, and in others, in pretty obvious demeaning ways; what the general public learns?

That women have 5% less muscle mass, therefore less likely to be able to defend themselves as efficiently, therefore expect their loving partner to help them? It’s not a demeaning role to be a sidekick. By the way you’re missing out or deliberately leaving out a whole bunch of where a female is a strong kitten hero.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_action_heroes
This is a bunch of strong women in action hero movies. Now however if you would like a list of movies where reality is portrayed and women are strong leads that are trying to get to the top of their career, or are saving lives as a doctor, etc the list would be way way longer.

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Posted by: AntiGw.9367

AntiGw.9367

The reason I’m not suspicious of this, is because I’ve offered nothing (nor is anything asked) that can be used against me.

One thing I’ve learned on the internet is that everything can be used against you in one way or another.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

The reason I’m not suspicious of this, is because I’ve offered nothing (nor is anything asked) that can be used against me.

One thing I’ve learned on the internet is that everything can be used against you in one way or another.

Sorta like being married. lol

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Posted by: KorbanDallas.7389

KorbanDallas.7389

You know, it’s an interesting thought path for some learning I suppose, although at the same time there are some bits to the questions that don’t really seem all that relevant to me personally (but then again, I’m not sociology person). Looks like I came to late to bat though, as the data-mass has been extracted and already fled. TBH though, I fail to see how an internet survey isn’t acceptable, and yet an internet poll is (maybe people are just worried that without the anonymity the internet-public would just skew the results with slander and lies, as the internet does).
Personally, I’m a dude, my main’s a dude, and I put no thought forth into how masculine and manly he is. I mean, I chose a Norn because it’s essentially in-game equivalent to vikings, and that’s just representing bloodline.

As to the whole kind of off-topic feminist debate – I’d have to agree mostly with Mirta in what she says. Much like the vast majority of forums, the most vocal feminists tend to be the most useless ones (which is to say the ones that give feminists a bad name and makes everyone use feminist as a derogatory term in the first place). As far as in-games go: Male characters are just as heavily stereotyped as the female characters, as they are in all forms of media (not just games). Just because the standard “image” of a male is a 5’9" musclebound kungkittenmaster with abs you could probably cook an egg on doesn’t mean I cry sexist because I will never look like that. In something that’s media – be it book, game or movie – I’m only there to be entertained, not because I think its real. There are also plenty of women in the game industry already, such as Kiki Wolfkill and the various ladies working at ANet who have appeared on both livestream and comments/articles.

And really,@Vayne : rofl.

}——————————-{
http://avsla-gw2.blogspot.com/

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Posted by: VOLKON.1290

VOLKON.1290

Masculinity is obviously best shown by the size of ones ears. The larger the better of course. That, and a superior intellect when compared to not only the bookahs roaming the world but among your own kind as well. Brains will always trump brawn, but it is nice to have laborer species about.

Oh, and nothing, and I mean nothing, screams masculinity like a well-stocked lab.

#TeamJadeQuarry

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Posted by: Brit.9726

Brit.9726

1. Male/24
2. Since the Beta Weekend Events. Other MMO’s since January 2012
3. Female Sylvari Mesmer – can’t remember exactly, but what I do know is I took the Whispers route, helped the Quaggans. I’ll put an attachment with my Character Creation selection for you. My reason for choosing them is because of a mixture of what I wanted to do, and if I were my character (taking race/class etc into account) what she would do (for e.g. Mesmers in Order of Whispers seems like a fitting match with our ability to manipulate clones and go invisible).
4. WvW mostly. Then PvE in the open areas. I have done instances in the past, but I generally like openness more.
5. Her armour slightly. Most female Mesmers I see where dresses, and things that are generally pretty and attractive. Mine, for the most parts, looks like it just came from a battle or is commanding one (with my old Exotic chest I had, the same set as the Blindfold headpiece).
6. Nothing I can thinks of; I’m doing everything I want to that’s in-game right now.

Attachments:

Chrono B R I T – Mesmer
Furious Cookies [FURY]http://www.furious-gamers.org/
Desolation EU

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Posted by: Zoid.2568

Zoid.2568

1. 20, Male
2. Guild Wars 2 since beta, so about 1 year.
3. Sylvari Warrior, the story is about The Shield of the Moon, he’s ferocious and a warrior of the Vigil. I like that Sylvari are noble and one with nature, it makes them unique and make them easy to roleplay as something i would like to be in real life or already am.
4. To join a party in a dungeon, WvWvW and farm content.
5. His armour and masculine body, also his way with the ladies, being a gentleman but at the same time a “player”, being tough and not caring about small things that can easily be annoying.
6. I would like to build things in my home instance, collect trophies of my battles with my enemies and the journey i’ve done and the journeys to come and also have parties in my home instance with a lot of ladies and a bed of gold and blue crystals. I want to be able to create my own story in the game by giving us the tools we need to create it within our minds.

(edited by Zoid.2568)

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Posted by: CrossedHorse.4261

CrossedHorse.4261

There appears to be some confusion over what actually constitutes “feminism”. At it’s heart, feminism is a good thing – it strives to make women equal to men in terms of rights and the treatment they receive. It’s idealistic.

However, in reality, we tend to get a very vocal minority of extreme people (men and women) who seem to feel that women are superior in every way to men. Which just isn’t true. And they also feel that any woman who, say, doesn’t actually mind the notion of a man holding open a door for her offensive, is somehow holding back the females of this world. It is this latter set that Mirta objects to.

I am a female, and I do believe that the games industry has a long history of sexism. However, most of it does not offend me. The games industry always USED to be aimed towards men, however I personally feel that this is changing. Are there characters in games we might consider sexist? Of course. Is this different to any other industry? No. This is simply a sort of hangover from the days where the games industry catered mainly to a male audience. It doesn’t mean that it’s sexist or offensive to females. I, like Mirta, do not see that the gaming industry is inherently sexist – and yes, it bugs me that people make a big deal out of Lara Croft looking like she does, for one example. Do men like to look at her? Sure (some don’t, maybe). But does that make it sexist? Not really – I’d love to look like her. Does that mean I am lowering the feminine ideal because I feel the pressure to live up to a male-orientated ideal? I don’t think so. I think she looks very sexy and wouldn’t mind looking like that. I don’t feel that represents anything wrong with society.

Am I feminist? Absolutely – I fully believe that women are as important as men. Do I believe women are BETTER than men? Absolutely NOT. And I do tend to ask any extreme feminist I meet “why on earth do you want to be exactly the same as men?” Men are wonderful, but we’re not men. We are DIFFERENT. Are women as physically strong as men? Generally speaking, no. Can men give birth? No. Etc, etc. Feminism has become, to some, a very negative thing because of these few who take it to an illogical and dangerous extreme.

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Posted by: Dante.1508

Dante.1508

Given that masculinity/femininity are such social constructs, and quite irrelevant to me personally (given that men and women are individuals rather than stereotypes), I just can’t relate with the survey or its purported goals. I play 8 characters, 3 male and 5 female, and don’t play myself through them, but rather themselves in their own universe and background, of course with a little touch of “me” in each of them. The only male that is supposed to be more like me is not played as frequently, and even then, he gets to be himself rather than just my GW2 avatar. I enjoy playing all my characters because they are interesting personally to me, more than any need to represent myself or so-called “masculinity” in a game-I even don’t enjoy RPing “macho” male characters at all, even though I can and would given the right character.

In short, my characters (role-playing) are more important than gender issues, and totally don’t care whether they are seen as masculine/feminine-much like I myself don’t live my life trying to judge people based on such limited stereotypes.

No offense to the OP or anyone else, though, as I don’t see this as a big deal or worth it our time to insult ourselves and each other by belittling others for not seeing things the way we do.

Well said this pretty much stands for me too, i do not project myself as a human being through virtual characters, they are a form of entertainment and as such are an outlet of being a game character male and female (i have ten characters) none of which are remotely like me.

Personally think people take social constructs way too seriously.

One thing i will add is the game seems to take way more effort in making female characters look amazing and male characters look like boring crap… just from what i’ve noticed in game..

(edited by Dante.1508)

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Posted by: Ulalume.9584

Ulalume.9584

Part 2:
The thing is in your opinion woman have no self confidence because they’re over sexualized, therefore get no respect and people get violent against them. However from the researches that we’ve done it’s the exact opposite. Where the sexualization is let to flourish less kitten happens.
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/everyday_economics/2006/10/how_the_web_prevents_rape.html
Where women are encouraged to hide their body more violence happens against them.

You really should not comment on serious social issues such as violence against women when you very obviously lack even the most basic level of knowledge needed to understand these problems. As someone with extensive experience in the family violence sector, I cannot believe you posted a link to some internet news magazine and then claim that "Where the sexualization is let to flourish less kitten happens. " Shame on you.

Attend a conference on family violence and you will learn that actual scientific research has proven the link between pornography and DV. No, instead, you post a link to an article that does not even reference the “study” it draws all kinds of conclusions from.

Given the level of ignorance you displayed in the post I have quoted, I cannot take any of your comments regarding sexism in the gaming industry seriously.

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Posted by: aophts.9862

aophts.9862

I can’t be the only one who finds this extremely suspicious.

I find it too. All this wave of feminism into video-games is quite annoying. It’s all about “catter to my needs” or “change that girl or that guy because it offends me!”

There are other important things to feminists care about.

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

You really should not comment on serious social issues such as violence against women when you very obviously lack even the most basic level of knowledge needed to understand these problems. As someone with extensive experience in the family violence sector, I cannot believe you posted a link to some internet news magazine and then claim that "Where the sexualization is let to flourish less kitten happens. " Shame on you.

Attend a conference on family violence and you will learn that actual scientific research has proven the link between pornography and DV. No, instead, you post a link to an article that does not even reference the “study” it draws all kinds of conclusions from.

Given the level of ignorance you displayed in the post I have quoted, I cannot take any of your comments regarding sexism in the gaming industry seriously.

http://search.informit.com.au/documentSummary;dn=344206285265894;res=IELHSS
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101130111326.htm
There’s plenty research on the topic.
Then you can also find pieces like these:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2013/07/statistics-.html
also conferences can be held by absolutely anyone. Hell creationists have their own conferences too.

(edited by Mirta.5029)

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Posted by: Ulalume.9584

Ulalume.9584

http://search.informit.com.au/documentSummary;dn=344206285265894;res=IELHSS
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101130111326.htm
There’s plenty research on the topic.
Then you can also find pieces like these:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2013/07/statistics-.html
also conferences can be held by absolutely anyone. Hell creationists have their own conferences too.

I will give you one piece of advice before I leave this thread, Mirta. Do not posts links to studies, you have not read. It’s quite sad that you would google this topic in the hope of supporting your statements. If you spent that time actually trying to further your knowledge, you might learn something.

I will even recommend a book to you called “Coercive Control: How Men Entrap Women in Personal Life” by Evan Stark. It’s highly acclaimed and in my opinion an invaluable resource for those who want to understand the evolution of family violence in the United States. And no, I did not just google it; I read it.

To the original poster of this thread, I apologize for going off topic. But there are some statements that are so blatantly disrespectful and ignorant, they cannot be left unchallenged.

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

You know, it’s an interesting thought path for some learning I suppose, although at the same time there are some bits to the questions that don’t really seem all that relevant to me personally (but then again, I’m not sociology person). Looks like I came to late to bat though, as the data-mass has been extracted and already fled. TBH though, I fail to see how an internet survey isn’t acceptable, and yet an internet poll is (maybe people are just worried that without the anonymity the internet-public would just skew the results with slander and lies, as the internet does).

I think the OP is still reading but not sure how much data is getting taken from this survey. They posted recently so there’s that…

Also agree on the poll vs survey. At least on here, you know, the only way someone gets a chance to post is if they spent $$$ on a copy for a game and can’t just keep posting to skew the numbers…at least I think there isn’t some way around it.

Personally, I’m a dude, my main’s a dude, and I put no thought forth into how masculine and manly he is. I mean, I chose a Norn because it’s essentially in-game equivalent to vikings, and that’s just representing bloodline.

Yeah, I think the OP should modify the questions some, particularly if there is any roleplay involved with your chosen character. Like, I could ask you why you decided to choose to make an equivalent of a viking for your character, does it relate to physical prowess and would you consider the character traits as masculine, feminine or neither?

Just because the standard “image” of a male is a 5’9" musclebound kungkittenmaster with abs you could probably cook an egg on doesn’t mean I cry sexist because I will never look like that.

….I don’t know if I should feel ashamed because I’m nearly in that stereotype (5’11 though, not a master but I’ve studied for about 4 years and abs are acceptable…not super or anything) or kitten ed because it’s so predictable.

Anyway, I think the debate is a bit over-emphasized. It honestly feels like a pointless debate to me. Feminism should be focusing on actual women equality, not perceived inequality because image doesn’t change in a day or a year but over an era. What doors are closed off to women in society doesn’t directly correlate to image in media. If you attempt to, you just demean the women who burst down barriers through hard work and effort.

We mar the image of women by highlighting the negatives like booth babes and scantily clad women in video games when we should be shouting accolades for women who work their kitten off to break the mold. And that’s how it should be…men have to work hard too to do great things and be recognized for it. So that’s my input there and I’ll leave it alone from there :P

Masculinity is obviously best shown by the size of ones ears. The larger the better of course. That, and a superior intellect when compared to not only the bookahs roaming the world but among your own kind as well. Brains will always trump brawn, but it is nice to have laborer species about.

Oh, and nothing, and I mean nothing, screams masculinity like a well-stocked lab.

Heh, I made my Asuras with that mentality in mind. My more masculine Asura has the longer ears and is far more the intellectual…

But my less masculine Asura still has valuable views and ideas (and he’s oh so adorable!) and sees the world through wider lenses to take in the big picture. Unorthodox viewpoints are how the like of Professor Gorr came up with theories about magic and the elder dragons!

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

http://search.informit.com.au/documentSummary;dn=344206285265894;res=IELHSS
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101130111326.htm
There’s plenty research on the topic.
Then you can also find pieces like these:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2013/07/statistics-.html
also conferences can be held by absolutely anyone. Hell creationists have their own conferences too.

I will give you one piece of advice before I leave this thread, Mirta. Do not posts links to studies, you have not read. It’s quite sad that you would google this topic in the hope of supporting your statements. If you spent that time actually trying to further your knowledge, you might learn something.

I will even recommend a book to you called “Coercive Control: How Men Entrap Women in Personal Life” by Evan Stark. It’s highly acclaimed and in my opinion an invaluable resource for those who want to understand the evolution of family violence in the United States. And no, I did not just google it; I read it.

To the original poster of this thread, I apologize for going off topic. But there are some statements that are so blatantly disrespectful and ignorant, they cannot be left unchallenged.

1. I did read the links
2. Wait, wait, wait – I’m talking about kitten and you’re talking about domestic violence? Both are separate topics.
Fact is – when porn became legal in several countries cases of kitten have gone down. In places where women are expected to completely cover up themselves and are treated like things they get kitten d more often.
There are no statistics when talking about oversexualization and domestic violence. I did google your book and it has to do with domestic violence cases and not kitten cases. On top of that porn has nothing to do with domestic violence either.

(edited by Mirta.5029)

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Posted by: Moderator.6837

Moderator.6837

Hello,

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