Guild Wars 2

So, I had recently been watching Nemesis’s video’s (I found them via the Teapot youtube show / podcast with inks, boots and brazil) and found the whole issue over dps, the meta and elitism very interesting. I didn’t understand all of it (I’m terribad at maths) but it’s certainly made me interested in playing a Necro. I understood the basic idea of what he was saying, but both camps seem so diametrically opposed, and without access to detailed information (which the games rules make impossible??), it’s hard to reach some conclusions. Seems to be a lot of screaming back and forth.

What about the devs who work on Necro? I notice it was mentioned that they think Necro is fine apparently. Do they then essentially agree with him, if they do not change Necro to make it “better”? (However you want to define that I guess). Would be great to hear their thoughts on this – the mechanics of it I mean, not the arguing.

What does everyone else think?

Here’s the Teapot video from the other day, and the video’s about dps and meta.

TeaTime : DPS & The Meta – With Nemesis, Boots, Brazil and Inks!

Meta vid 1, Meta vid 2, Meta vid 3

(ps. Inks was hilarious lol)

I think that many players assume to know what or how devs think when they develop a class in any MMO and GW2 isn’t any different. There is so many things wrong with how the meta is pushed in the game and how it negatively impacts it that it’s hard to find a place to start asking questions or having a discussion. I can’t get over the fact that despite how far from reality the theorycrafting calculations are, they are still the standard that people use to act out on others. The only thing the calcs do is give a theoretical upper damage limit for a rotation/build for SPECIFIC and IDEAL situations.

The bottom line is: if you have any capacity to think for yourself, do so and come to your own conclusions; this isn’t rocket science. The math on a spreadsheet only takes you so far. Don’t be a sheep.

I just want to add that not all dps is calculated in a void. Many bosses have known health points, and seeing how long it takes to kill a boss or npc can give some indication of damage potential of classes.

Obtena.7952:

I think that many players assume to know what or how devs think when they develop a class in any MMO and GW2 isn’t any different. There is so many things wrong with how the meta is pushed in the game and how it negatively impacts it that it’s hard to find a place to start asking questions or having a discussion. I can’t get over the fact that despite how far from reality the theorycrafting calculations are, they are still the standard that people use to act out on others. The only thing the calcs do is give a theoretical upper damage limit for a rotation/build for SPECIFIC and IDEAL situations.

The bottom line is: if you have any capacity to think for yourself, do so and come to your own conclusions; this isn’t rocket science. The math on a spreadsheet only takes you so far. Don’t be a sheep.

Good players and guilds make ideal situations more common. They figure out how to position or manipulate an encounter to get the highest dps possible. They make the math a reality.

^much thanks for those links

When you’re talking about DPS, there’s not that many ways to look at it. In most cases, assuming ideal conditions is far simpler than assuming the worst possible conditions. Not to mention that the worst conditions are usually far more absurd than the ideal conditions.

What you have to be able to do is properly interpret the numbers you get. A dungeon clear time under ideal conditions is going to be your minimum, whereas your clear under the worst conditions will present the maximum. And quite often, the assumptions made with theorycrafted DPS figures are rather unreasonable. But making it proper via calculating margins of error and whatnot would add a lot of complexity.

Problem is that even in ideal situations you don’t come close to those spreadsheets numbers. 25k DPS on a Revenant vs 14k DPS on Necro while in reality it was 10k on Rev and 12k on Necro. You don’t draw conclusions from the spreadsheets, you form hypothesis from them and then test the hypothesis to see how it works in reality. Kind of like science.

Even if those that makes the spreadsheets know this and only use them as a base, many other players just see 2 numbers, one is bigger than the other and therefore… necro sucks for example.

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

I think that many players assume to know what or how devs think when they develop a class in any MMO and GW2 isn’t any different. There is so many things wrong with how the meta is pushed in the game and how it negatively impacts it that it’s hard to find a place to start asking questions or having a discussion. I can’t get over the fact that despite how far from reality the theorycrafting calculations are, they are still the standard that people use to act out on others. The only thing the calcs do is give a theoretical upper damage limit for a rotation/build for SPECIFIC and IDEAL situations.

The bottom line is: if you have any capacity to think for yourself, do so and come to your own conclusions; this isn’t rocket science. The math on a spreadsheet only takes you so far. Don’t be a sheep.

Good players and guilds make ideal situations more common. They figure out how to position or manipulate an encounter to get the highest dps possible. They make the math a reality.

‘Being good’ can’t even make ideal situations happen ever because:

1. Being good doesn’t affect all the assumptions that are being used to make these calculations (mob armor, DPS uptime, etc …) or ‘demonstrate’ them on Golems instead of real game content.
2. Even if YOU are really good, you also need 4 other people in a team to be really good because all these calculations are based on full buffed and debuffs.

You literally need to engineer the exact situation with 5 pro players playing the ideal professions on a specific mob to even come close to the values people are calculating.

Obtena.7952:

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

I think that many players assume to know what or how devs think when they develop a class in any MMO and GW2 isn’t any different. There is so many things wrong with how the meta is pushed in the game and how it negatively impacts it that it’s hard to find a place to start asking questions or having a discussion. I can’t get over the fact that despite how far from reality the theorycrafting calculations are, they are still the standard that people use to act out on others. The only thing the calcs do is give a theoretical upper damage limit for a rotation/build for SPECIFIC and IDEAL situations.

The bottom line is: if you have any capacity to think for yourself, do so and come to your own conclusions; this isn’t rocket science. The math on a spreadsheet only takes you so far. Don’t be a sheep.

Good players and guilds make ideal situations more common. They figure out how to position or manipulate an encounter to get the highest dps possible. They make the math a reality.

‘Being good’ doesn’t affect all the assumptions that are being used to make these calculations; for instance, ‘being good’ doesn’t prevent you from having to dodge, something the calcs don’t take into account.

Even for factors where ‘being good’ does affect, the math still does not approach the values that are realistic to what happens in the game.

It does mean that you minimize dodging as much as possible. Good examples are dungeon groups that take advantage of Mesmer reflects and Guardian aegis to eliminate or greatly reduce the need for movement, in order to maximize dps uptime.

Once again, good group will take advantage of all possible mechanics to maximize their dps uptime, in order to get as close to the theoretical maximum as possible.

Ceiling values are very relevant. Good players will practice their rotation over and over to get as close to that ceiling as possible. If a different build has a higher ceiling, then they’ll change their build and try to get close to the ceiling of the new build.

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

I think that many players assume to know what or how devs think when they develop a class in any MMO and GW2 isn’t any different. There is so many things wrong with how the meta is pushed in the game and how it negatively impacts it that it’s hard to find a place to start asking questions or having a discussion. I can’t get over the fact that despite how far from reality the theorycrafting calculations are, they are still the standard that people use to act out on others. The only thing the calcs do is give a theoretical upper damage limit for a rotation/build for SPECIFIC and IDEAL situations.

The bottom line is: if you have any capacity to think for yourself, do so and come to your own conclusions; this isn’t rocket science. The math on a spreadsheet only takes you so far. Don’t be a sheep.

Good players and guilds make ideal situations more common. They figure out how to position or manipulate an encounter to get the highest dps possible. They make the math a reality.

‘Being good’ doesn’t affect all the assumptions that are being used to make these calculations; for instance, ‘being good’ doesn’t prevent you from having to dodge, something the calcs don’t take into account.

Even for factors where ‘being good’ does affect, the math still does not approach the values that are realistic to what happens in the game.

It does mean that you minimize dodging as much as possible. Good examples are dungeon groups that take advantage of Mesmer reflects and Guardian aegis to eliminate or greatly reduce the need for movement, in order to maximize dps uptime.

Once again, good group will take advantage of all possible mechanics to maximize their dps uptime, in order to get as close to the theoretical maximum as possible.

Ceiling values are very relevant. Good players will practice their rotation over and over to get as close to that ceiling as possible. If a different build has a higher ceiling, then they’ll change their build and try to get close to the ceiling of the new build.

Sure, there is a small amount of people who use the ceiling as a target to see how close they can get. That’s not the problem with these calcs, so put that to rest.

The problem is that there is a MASSIVE number of people that use the ceiling calculation as ‘proof’ of what professions are good or bad and act stupidly because of it. Some of these people even believe it’s an obtainable value. What’s even worse is that the people pushing these calculations rarely even caveat their calculations with useful information like “You likely won’t be able to achieve these values because we didn’t include X in our model” or “This calculation is not applicable to situation X or boss Y because ….” To me that’s the most offensive part of what’s happening here.

Obtena.7952:

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

I think that many players assume to know what or how devs think when they develop a class in any MMO and GW2 isn’t any different. There is so many things wrong with how the meta is pushed in the game and how it negatively impacts it that it’s hard to find a place to start asking questions or having a discussion. I can’t get over the fact that despite how far from reality the theorycrafting calculations are, they are still the standard that people use to act out on others. The only thing the calcs do is give a theoretical upper damage limit for a rotation/build for SPECIFIC and IDEAL situations.

The bottom line is: if you have any capacity to think for yourself, do so and come to your own conclusions; this isn’t rocket science. The math on a spreadsheet only takes you so far. Don’t be a sheep.

Good players and guilds make ideal situations more common. They figure out how to position or manipulate an encounter to get the highest dps possible. They make the math a reality.

‘Being good’ doesn’t affect all the assumptions that are being used to make these calculations; for instance, ‘being good’ doesn’t prevent you from having to dodge, something the calcs don’t take into account.

Even for factors where ‘being good’ does affect, the math still does not approach the values that are realistic to what happens in the game.

It does mean that you minimize dodging as much as possible. Good examples are dungeon groups that take advantage of Mesmer reflects and Guardian aegis to eliminate or greatly reduce the need for movement, in order to maximize dps uptime.

Once again, good group will take advantage of all possible mechanics to maximize their dps uptime, in order to get as close to the theoretical maximum as possible.

Ceiling values are very relevant. Good players will practice their rotation over and over to get as close to that ceiling as possible. If a different build has a higher ceiling, then they’ll change their build and try to get close to the ceiling of the new build.

Sure, there is a small amount of people who use the ceiling as a target to see how close they can get. That’s not the problem with these calcs, so put that to rest.

The problem is that there is a MASSIVE number of people that use the ceiling calculation as ‘proof’ of what professions are good or bad and act stupidly because of it. Some of these people even believe it’s an obtainable value.

There really isn’t anything you can do about that. There will always be people who will misinterpret the data, whether intentionally or due to ignorance.

Olba.5376:

Obtena.7952:

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

I think that many players assume to know what or how devs think when they develop a class in any MMO and GW2 isn’t any different. There is so many things wrong with how the meta is pushed in the game and how it negatively impacts it that it’s hard to find a place to start asking questions or having a discussion. I can’t get over the fact that despite how far from reality the theorycrafting calculations are, they are still the standard that people use to act out on others. The only thing the calcs do is give a theoretical upper damage limit for a rotation/build for SPECIFIC and IDEAL situations.

The bottom line is: if you have any capacity to think for yourself, do so and come to your own conclusions; this isn’t rocket science. The math on a spreadsheet only takes you so far. Don’t be a sheep.

Good players and guilds make ideal situations more common. They figure out how to position or manipulate an encounter to get the highest dps possible. They make the math a reality.

‘Being good’ doesn’t affect all the assumptions that are being used to make these calculations; for instance, ‘being good’ doesn’t prevent you from having to dodge, something the calcs don’t take into account. No one can tell me it’s impossible to model dodging … if a theorycrafter can’t incorporate how dodging events impact DPS, they should just pack it in.

Even for factors where ‘being good’ does affect, the math still does not approach the values that are realistic to what happens in the game.

It does mean that you minimize dodging as much as possible. Good examples are dungeon groups that take advantage of Mesmer reflects and Guardian aegis to eliminate or greatly reduce the need for movement, in order to maximize dps uptime.

Once again, good group will take advantage of all possible mechanics to maximize their dps uptime, in order to get as close to the theoretical maximum as possible.

Ceiling values are very relevant. Good players will practice their rotation over and over to get as close to that ceiling as possible. If a different build has a higher ceiling, then they’ll change their build and try to get close to the ceiling of the new build.

Sure, there is a small amount of people who use the ceiling as a target to see how close they can get. That’s not the problem with these calcs, so put that to rest.

The problem is that there is a MASSIVE number of people that use the ceiling calculation as ‘proof’ of what professions are good or bad and act stupidly because of it. Some of these people even believe it’s an obtainable value.

There really isn’t anything you can do about that. There will always be people who will misinterpret the data, whether intentionally or due to ignorance.

There actually is something the people can do about that, they just don’t because it’s more difficult than what they are capable of doing; enhancing their models and adding in factors that are more aligned with what happens ingame. Honestly … how hard would it be to factor in DPS loss from dodging? It can be modeled quite reasonably as an interrupt with a duration and frequency that is reasonable. Frankly, if someone can’t incorporate parameters in their models, they should pack it in.

So we have some weekend Excel warriors pushing zeroth order DPS calcs barely relevant to the real game situation and a whole bunch of other people buying it because ’it’s math’. Things like this make me fear for the education levels in the places where these people exist.

Obtena.7952:

Olba.5376:

Obtena.7952:

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

I think that many players assume to know what or how devs think when they develop a class in any MMO and GW2 isn’t any different. There is so many things wrong with how the meta is pushed in the game and how it negatively impacts it that it’s hard to find a place to start asking questions or having a discussion. I can’t get over the fact that despite how far from reality the theorycrafting calculations are, they are still the standard that people use to act out on others. The only thing the calcs do is give a theoretical upper damage limit for a rotation/build for SPECIFIC and IDEAL situations.

The bottom line is: if you have any capacity to think for yourself, do so and come to your own conclusions; this isn’t rocket science. The math on a spreadsheet only takes you so far. Don’t be a sheep.

Good players and guilds make ideal situations more common. They figure out how to position or manipulate an encounter to get the highest dps possible. They make the math a reality.

‘Being good’ doesn’t affect all the assumptions that are being used to make these calculations; for instance, ‘being good’ doesn’t prevent you from having to dodge, something the calcs don’t take into account. No one can tell me it’s impossible to model dodging … if a theorycrafter can’t incorporate how dodging events impact DPS, they should just pack it in.

Even for factors where ‘being good’ does affect, the math still does not approach the values that are realistic to what happens in the game.

It does mean that you minimize dodging as much as possible. Good examples are dungeon groups that take advantage of Mesmer reflects and Guardian aegis to eliminate or greatly reduce the need for movement, in order to maximize dps uptime.

Once again, good group will take advantage of all possible mechanics to maximize their dps uptime, in order to get as close to the theoretical maximum as possible.

Ceiling values are very relevant. Good players will practice their rotation over and over to get as close to that ceiling as possible. If a different build has a higher ceiling, then they’ll change their build and try to get close to the ceiling of the new build.

Sure, there is a small amount of people who use the ceiling as a target to see how close they can get. That’s not the problem with these calcs, so put that to rest.

The problem is that there is a MASSIVE number of people that use the ceiling calculation as ‘proof’ of what professions are good or bad and act stupidly because of it. Some of these people even believe it’s an obtainable value.

There really isn’t anything you can do about that. There will always be people who will misinterpret the data, whether intentionally or due to ignorance.

There actually is something the people can do about that, they just don’t because it’s more difficult than what they are capable of doing; enhancing their models and adding in factors that are more aligned with what happens ingame.

So we have some weekend Excel warriors pushing zeroth order DPS calcs barely relevant to the real game situation and a whole bunch of other people buying it because ’it’s math’. Things like this make me fear for the education levels in the places where these people exist.

You’re assuming that people who make spreadsheets and dps simulators for MMOs don’t actually play the game, but from my experience, its usually the opposite. These are people at or near the top of their MMO’s group content communities.

That is why people listen to guilds like DnT when they give their numbers for a build and rotation.

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

Olba.5376:

Obtena.7952:

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

I think that many players assume to know what or how devs think when they develop a class in any MMO and GW2 isn’t any different. There is so many things wrong with how the meta is pushed in the game and how it negatively impacts it that it’s hard to find a place to start asking questions or having a discussion. I can’t get over the fact that despite how far from reality the theorycrafting calculations are, they are still the standard that people use to act out on others. The only thing the calcs do is give a theoretical upper damage limit for a rotation/build for SPECIFIC and IDEAL situations.

The bottom line is: if you have any capacity to think for yourself, do so and come to your own conclusions; this isn’t rocket science. The math on a spreadsheet only takes you so far. Don’t be a sheep.

Good players and guilds make ideal situations more common. They figure out how to position or manipulate an encounter to get the highest dps possible. They make the math a reality.

‘Being good’ doesn’t affect all the assumptions that are being used to make these calculations; for instance, ‘being good’ doesn’t prevent you from having to dodge, something the calcs don’t take into account. No one can tell me it’s impossible to model dodging … if a theorycrafter can’t incorporate how dodging events impact DPS, they should just pack it in.

Even for factors where ‘being good’ does affect, the math still does not approach the values that are realistic to what happens in the game.

It does mean that you minimize dodging as much as possible. Good examples are dungeon groups that take advantage of Mesmer reflects and Guardian aegis to eliminate or greatly reduce the need for movement, in order to maximize dps uptime.

Once again, good group will take advantage of all possible mechanics to maximize their dps uptime, in order to get as close to the theoretical maximum as possible.

Ceiling values are very relevant. Good players will practice their rotation over and over to get as close to that ceiling as possible. If a different build has a higher ceiling, then they’ll change their build and try to get close to the ceiling of the new build.

Sure, there is a small amount of people who use the ceiling as a target to see how close they can get. That’s not the problem with these calcs, so put that to rest.

The problem is that there is a MASSIVE number of people that use the ceiling calculation as ‘proof’ of what professions are good or bad and act stupidly because of it. Some of these people even believe it’s an obtainable value.

There really isn’t anything you can do about that. There will always be people who will misinterpret the data, whether intentionally or due to ignorance.

There actually is something the people can do about that, they just don’t because it’s more difficult than what they are capable of doing; enhancing their models and adding in factors that are more aligned with what happens ingame.

So we have some weekend Excel warriors pushing zeroth order DPS calcs barely relevant to the real game situation and a whole bunch of other people buying it because ’it’s math’. Things like this make me fear for the education levels in the places where these people exist.

You’re assuming that people who make spreadsheets and dps simulators for MMOs don’t actually play the game, but from my experience, its usually the opposite. These are people at or near the top of their MMO’s group content communities.

That is why people listen to guilds like DnT when they give their numbers for a build and rotation.

People being at the top of their MMO content does not mean they have a clue on how to model DPS. Those two skills are not inclusive.

So when I see ignorant people accepting DPS calculations based on the fact the people making those calculations are top of their game, that’s a fallacy. I trust very few people to recognize that fallacy for the exact same reasons I trust very few people to understand how the calculations DON’T relate to ingame experiences.

@MashMash, we are currently discussing this topic in the Necro forum with Nemesis, or at least we try to discuss it.

Anyways, if you are interested you might want to have a look at this thread. Prepare yourself for a lot of wall-of-texts and textual repetition X)

Obtena.7952:

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

Olba.5376:

Obtena.7952:

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

I think that many players assume to know what or how devs think when they develop a class in any MMO and GW2 isn’t any different. There is so many things wrong with how the meta is pushed in the game and how it negatively impacts it that it’s hard to find a place to start asking questions or having a discussion. I can’t get over the fact that despite how far from reality the theorycrafting calculations are, they are still the standard that people use to act out on others. The only thing the calcs do is give a theoretical upper damage limit for a rotation/build for SPECIFIC and IDEAL situations.

The bottom line is: if you have any capacity to think for yourself, do so and come to your own conclusions; this isn’t rocket science. The math on a spreadsheet only takes you so far. Don’t be a sheep.

Good players and guilds make ideal situations more common. They figure out how to position or manipulate an encounter to get the highest dps possible. They make the math a reality.

‘Being good’ doesn’t affect all the assumptions that are being used to make these calculations; for instance, ‘being good’ doesn’t prevent you from having to dodge, something the calcs don’t take into account. No one can tell me it’s impossible to model dodging … if a theorycrafter can’t incorporate how dodging events impact DPS, they should just pack it in.

Even for factors where ‘being good’ does affect, the math still does not approach the values that are realistic to what happens in the game.

It does mean that you minimize dodging as much as possible. Good examples are dungeon groups that take advantage of Mesmer reflects and Guardian aegis to eliminate or greatly reduce the need for movement, in order to maximize dps uptime.

Once again, good group will take advantage of all possible mechanics to maximize their dps uptime, in order to get as close to the theoretical maximum as possible.

Ceiling values are very relevant. Good players will practice their rotation over and over to get as close to that ceiling as possible. If a different build has a higher ceiling, then they’ll change their build and try to get close to the ceiling of the new build.

Sure, there is a small amount of people who use the ceiling as a target to see how close they can get. That’s not the problem with these calcs, so put that to rest.

The problem is that there is a MASSIVE number of people that use the ceiling calculation as ‘proof’ of what professions are good or bad and act stupidly because of it. Some of these people even believe it’s an obtainable value.

There really isn’t anything you can do about that. There will always be people who will misinterpret the data, whether intentionally or due to ignorance.

There actually is something the people can do about that, they just don’t because it’s more difficult than what they are capable of doing; enhancing their models and adding in factors that are more aligned with what happens ingame.

So we have some weekend Excel warriors pushing zeroth order DPS calcs barely relevant to the real game situation and a whole bunch of other people buying it because ’it’s math’. Things like this make me fear for the education levels in the places where these people exist.

You’re assuming that people who make spreadsheets and dps simulators for MMOs don’t actually play the game, but from my experience, its usually the opposite. These are people at or near the top of their MMO’s group content communities.

That is why people listen to guilds like DnT when they give their numbers for a build and rotation.

People being at the top of their MMO content does not mean they have a clue on how to model DPS. Those two skills are not inclusive.

So when I see ignorant people accepting DPS calculations based on the fact the people making those calculations are top of their game, that’s a fallacy. I trust very few people to recognize that fallacy for the exact same reasons I trust very few people to understand how the calculations DON’T relate to ingame experiences.

The point is that they don’t release builds and numbers in a vacuum. After they calculate what the theoretical ceiling is, they try to reach it.

A rule of thumb from WoW raiding is that you should try to consistently reach 90% of your SimCraft calculated dps. The calculations do translate into ingame experiences if you practice and the people you play with practice.

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

Olba.5376:

Obtena.7952:

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

Jephery.8915:

Obtena.7952:

I think that many players assume to know what or how devs think when they develop a class in any MMO and GW2 isn’t any different. There is so many things wrong with how the meta is pushed in the game and how it negatively impacts it that it’s hard to find a place to start asking questions or having a discussion. I can’t get over the fact that despite how far from reality the theorycrafting calculations are, they are still the standard that people use to act out on others. The only thing the calcs do is give a theoretical upper damage limit for a rotation/build for SPECIFIC and IDEAL situations.

The bottom line is: if you have any capacity to think for yourself, do so and come to your own conclusions; this isn’t rocket science. The math on a spreadsheet only takes you so far. Don’t be a sheep.

Good players and guilds make ideal situations more common. They figure out how to position or manipulate an encounter to get the highest dps possible. They make the math a reality.

‘Being good’ doesn’t affect all the assumptions that are being used to make these calculations; for instance, ‘being good’ doesn’t prevent you from having to dodge, something the calcs don’t take into account. No one can tell me it’s impossible to model dodging … if a theorycrafter can’t incorporate how dodging events impact DPS, they should just pack it in.

Even for factors where ‘being good’ does affect, the math still does not approach the values that are realistic to what happens in the game.

It does mean that you minimize dodging as much as possible. Good examples are dungeon groups that take advantage of Mesmer reflects and Guardian aegis to eliminate or greatly reduce the need for movement, in order to maximize dps uptime.

Once again, good group will take advantage of all possible mechanics to maximize their dps uptime, in order to get as close to the theoretical maximum as possible.

Ceiling values are very relevant. Good players will practice their rotation over and over to get as close to that ceiling as possible. If a different build has a higher ceiling, then they’ll change their build and try to get close to the ceiling of the new build.

Sure, there is a small amount of people who use the ceiling as a target to see how close they can get. That’s not the problem with these calcs, so put that to rest.

The problem is that there is a MASSIVE number of people that use the ceiling calculation as ‘proof’ of what professions are good or bad and act stupidly because of it. Some of these people even believe it’s an obtainable value.

There really isn’t anything you can do about that. There will always be people who will misinterpret the data, whether intentionally or due to ignorance.

There actually is something the people can do about that, they just don’t because it’s more difficult than what they are capable of doing; enhancing their models and adding in factors that are more aligned with what happens ingame.

So we have some weekend Excel warriors pushing zeroth order DPS calcs barely relevant to the real game situation and a whole bunch of other people buying it because ’it’s math’. Things like this make me fear for the education levels in the places where these people exist.

You’re assuming that people who make spreadsheets and dps simulators for MMOs don’t actually play the game, but from my experience, its usually the opposite. These are people at or near the top of their MMO’s group content communities.

That is why people listen to guilds like DnT when they give their numbers for a build and rotation.

People being at the top of their MMO content does not mean they have a clue on how to model DPS. Those two skills are not inclusive.

So when I see ignorant people accepting DPS calculations based on the fact the people making those calculations are top of their game, that’s a fallacy. I trust very few people to recognize that fallacy for the exact same reasons I trust very few people to understand how the calculations DON’T relate to ingame experiences.

The point is that they don’t release builds and numbers in a vacuum. After they calculate what the theoretical ceiling is, they try to reach it.

A rule of thumb from WoW raiding is that you should try to consistently reach 90% of your SimCraft calculated dps. The calculations do translate into ingame experiences if you practice and the people you play with practice.

I acknowledged there is a contigent using these calculations to see how to improve their game so you’re Point is made. In fact, I would argue theorycrafters are doing it wrong in the first place, but that’s far too academic a discussion to be had here I think, especially if they can’t or won’t even improve their calculations to include simple effects like dodging. As evidence (or lack of) of this, I have yet to see a video actually demonstrating how correlated between game experience and the current DPS calcs are; even though you elude to them trying to reach it, they won’t and they know it. That’s why I think they don’t bother.

Again, What I’m speaking about isn’t about the behaviour of the people you are referring to in your point. If EVERYONE was aware that these are just ceiling calculations, you wouldn’t have the negative behaviours you see ingame and on the forums and the misuse of these calculations.

I think it’s important to differentiate what makes a good player of the game and what makes someone good at analyzing gameplay. Being good at one doesn’t mean being good at the other. Frankly, the way that Nemesis MEASURES damage from videos … it’s the only method that is relevant to measure, short of getting a DPS meter ingame. People can argue about a second here or there but the method … it’s correct.

Obtena.7952:

I think it’s important to differentiate what makes a good player of the game and what makes someone good at analyzing gameplay. Being good at one doesn’t mean being good at the other.

True, but when I’m someone flapping off as heavily and being as vocal on a subject, I’d hope to at least use a decent performance in videos I upload.

The mistakes and fail plays even against Bloomhunger seen in his videos that get put off as “well it was a pug” are dishearting. While Bloomhunger has to be one of the easiest fights in the game.

Obtena.7952:

Frankly, the way that Nemesis MEASURES damage from videos … it’s the only method that is relevant to measure, short of getting a DPS meter ingame. People can argue about a second here or there but the method … it’s correct.

Ignoring all his hostility towards certain people and the attitude he displays in general, yes, it is a correct method to measure damage (assuming he did his math right ofc). It is just not applicable to what he applies it to. What he wants to show is realistic, average DPS numbers, but what he actually shows is isolated instances of DPS done by a certain individual in one particular instance of a boss fight in a certain group comp etc.etc..

By itself there is nothing wrong about that, but he tries to sell his result as something they just simply aren’t. Simultaneously he tries devalue numbers derived via a purely theoretical approach (“spreadsheet DPS”) because those are not realistic numbers, which everybody working with such numbers should know and which doesn’t make these numbers any less useful to the theorycrafters.

I’ve been trying to get a proper response from him about this issue I have with his methodology and the consequences he draws from his results, but so far I have been unsuccessful. He just doesn’t seem to like to engage in proper discussions among adults, but instead prefers to endlessly repeat the same stuff over and over again.

I wouldn’t go so far as to calling him “moronic”, but he certainly is a difficult person to converse with

Cyninja you do realize because the offensive way that you are putting your point makes you look worse right?

you could at least be respectful with your disagreement.

and thus where the real issue is this community is losing its respectful nature for elitist posturing its a game to have fun in.I don’t mind that folks want to be the best at certain things but spreading misinformation and enticing people to kick players based on their class and not their skill level is wrong.

play the game how you want to but don’t force your play style on others.

Kami Poi.4659:

Cyninja you do realize because the offensive way that you are putting your point makes you look worse right?

you could at least be respectful with your disagreement.

and thus where the real issue is this community is losing its respectful nature for elitist posturing its a game to have fun in.I don’t mind that folks want to be the best at certain things but spreading misinformation and enticing people to kick players based on their class and not their skill level is wrong.

play the game how you want to but don’t force your play style on others.

Oh I know. I openly admited that I absolutely do not like Nemesis. How could I have been more direct? Even stating that I think finding like minded players and playing for fun should be the ultimate goal.

Now if you could please tell me where I tried to push or force or even manipulate the TC into “my playstyle”? I was giving him advice as to how to improve his understanding of the game in general. Which summed up could probably be:“Don’t be a sheeple and follow anyone blindly just because they are loud. (this includes myself by the way)”

@Kami Poi, I’ve never heard anyone from DnT, SC or whichever prominent speed-run guild you like say you should kick players based on their class from OUR parties, ever. Which is another reason why I have a hard time understanding why Nemesis acts the way he does. It essentially all boils down to having two different and not comparable (!) approaches to measure DPS and, totally unrelated, people being kittens to other people on the lfg-tool.

So, why does he make such a big deal out of it? Why does he try to hold other content creators responsible for the action of rude people in random PuGs? Why is he on this rather ridiculous crusade against “the elitists”, whomever exactly he means with that.

I’m beginning to get the impression that all he does is trying to set people up against each other because of personal issues he has with certain individuals from within the speed-run community. I really don’t get that…

I think brazil’s way of measuring theoretical dps is MUCH better than using a spreadsheet. Kill the target golem 10 times, post your rotation your time and your buffs. Its easily accessible and can also be verified by any player who is interrested.

All this spreadsheet math which is never obtainable and may or may not be correct in its calculation including skill lag and aftercats is long overdue.

So someone just said that spreadsheet DPS always uses the max value of an attack, that is to say if your weapon deals 1-10 damage they use 10 in their calculations, always. Is this true? Can someone confirm this.

EDIT: I’m referring to this post:

I think problems ensue because people are almost absolutly uninformed about how DPS is calculated by dnt.Dmg is normaly calculated like this:

DMG=weapon dmg*power*skill coefficient/2600(heavy armor).

If you go in game and start autoattacking you will see you are not getting same number every time,even crits have difrent values.This is because weapon dmg in GW2 has min and max value.
Dnt calculates dmg assuming weapon dmg will always be max for any and all skills used in dmg rotation from which they later calculate DPS.
If you go in game again and start autoattacking sequences of 30 attacks.You will see that no matter how many sequences you make neither of them will have attacks doing max weapon dmg all the time.What you will see tho is most of the time you will be getting 50/50 ,you will be doing AVRAGE WEAPON DMG.Sometimes you can get lucky or very lucky but you cant get absolutly lucky or absolutly unlucky.
When you see DPS on spreadsheet all the values there are calculated using max weapon dmg,all buffs and 100% DPS uptime.Simple truth is that spreadsheet DPS values can NEVER be achieved under any and all circumstances IN GAME,for simple reason of how game engine works.Game engine “forces” avrage weapon dmg.I have nothing against Dnt calculating max theoretical DPS,but I just cant accept that they misslead people by not explicitly saying:

“These DPS values cant happen in game”

Nike and other “like minded” people say things like:“we use these values to compare the professions DPS” Again by assuming that max weapon dmg will happen all the time they made it imposible to compare professions based on their DPS spreadsheets.
All main hand weapons in the game have avrage weapon dmg of 1000 but they have difrent max and min weapon dmg. So when you calculate dmg they all should have 1000 weapon dmg simply because game engine “forces” avrage weapon dmg.

In dnt calculation they use max weapon dmg and axe has 1100,dagger 1030,pistol 1080,sword 1050… We can clearly see that dnt calculations favors certain weapons and builds just because they want to calculate DPS they will never be able to replicate in game… If they would use avrage weapon dmg for their calculations two important things would happen.
First DPS values for the professions would go down but these numbers would be very similar to the numbers you would be getting in game.You would be able to compare professions without favoring any of them… Weapons like axe and rifle have high max weapon dmg and high variance.If you get lucky with axe you can get 10% more weapon dmg,but at a same time you can lose 10% weapon dmg,same goes for rifle.
Dagger on the other hand is the most consistent main hand weapon with variance of only 3%.Sword and greatsword are in the mid with 5% variance.

Obtena.7952:

The bottom line is: if you have any capacity to think for yourself, do so and come to your own conclusions; this isn’t rocket science. The math on a spreadsheet only takes you so far. Don’t be a sheep.

This, but the biggie is openly hidden in the if-clause. As long as people think that a 50% chance means that every second try is going to succeed and base their calculations on this mistake, don’t expect too much.

Quote Mark Twain: [i]“It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

I would love to see anet make these approaches impossible by making the mobs much more flexible, eg. by changing their classes, making them chase you forever. This would eliminate a huge amount of problems from this game and make achievements desirable again.

Of course, this also means that the crafting system had to be overdone in more than one way.

Cyninja.2954:

Kami Poi.4659:

Cyninja you do realize because the offensive way that you are putting your point makes you look worse right?

you could at least be respectful with your disagreement.

and thus where the real issue is this community is losing its respectful nature for elitist posturing its a game to have fun in.I don’t mind that folks want to be the best at certain things but spreading misinformation and enticing people to kick players based on their class and not their skill level is wrong.

play the game how you want to but don’t force your play style on others.

Oh I know. I openly admited that I absolutely do not like Nemesis. How could I have been more direct? Even stating that I think finding like minded players and playing for fun should be the ultimate goal.

Now if you could please tell me where I tried to push or force or even manipulate the TC into “my playstyle”? I was giving him advice as to how to improve his understanding of the game in general. Which summed up could probably be:“Don’t be a sheeple and follow anyone blindly just because they are loud. (this includes myself by the way)”

did i say any specific names? and the word enticing just by saying a class is bad when in reality it isn’t is enticing to remove that class from groups.

the true fact of the matter is while classes have things they are not optimized for but are viable for yet they are being discriminated by because of some folks word is a bad sign.

They may not be publicly saying these things but the way they posture it is equal.

Kami Poi.4659:

I don’t mind that folks want to be the best at certain things but spreading misinformation and enticing people to kick players based on their class and not their skill level is wrong.

There is no good indicator for your skill level ingame. All you can do before beginning the dungeon is to judge on class, acitive/used skills, choice of weapons and AP.
Classes get kicked not only because of dps. Afaik necro was often critized for bringing not enough teamsupport.
A group consists of several classes fulfilling different roles. In the past it was usually a guardian (stabi, blinds, WoR, condiremove) , a warrior (banners, might), a thief (stealth, stacks, blind) and two eles (vuln, fury, might, blinds, icebow). When you know what each class is supposed to do in your dungeonpath you can replace some of them. If you don’t it is risky to change anything. For some content a guard is not needed. Or a thief. You can replace them with a necro or whatever. But sometimes they are needed and you might die because of missing stabi/WoR etc. Good groups can compensate a lot. They know what everyone is supposed to do and maybe the ele is switching to focus to replace a WoR. Or you use engi stealth instead of a thief. Not so good groups get into trouble. Most PUGs are bad at adapting to new situations. They might still be able to do a quick and good dungeonrun in a meta-team. Lets say you replace both eles with necros. In some dungeonpaths it would work. In others (for example) stealth is needed. You need some blasts for stealths. Ofc the guard can switch to hammer for skip parts. Most guards won’t do so, even when stealth is seriously lacking. Your dps might still be ok, but you will get into trouble at stealth parts. Maybe you can rush through without stealth or whatever – but it can cause troubles.

TL;DR: when you don’t know what you’re doing it is usually better to stick to the meta. If everyone knows what to do you can ofc change a lot. Other options might even be better. But it requires more knowledge of the whole team.

I find that in my opinion the ability to skip to save time but it is just that, it saves time nothing else and frankly this is why folks got bored of the dungeons.

since people where kicking classes out of their party they didn’t get to learn how that class meshes with them and the circle continues.

live a little play with other classes learn and have fun.

or just play the “meta” and continue to be bored.

most of all at least respect others enough to tell them why they were kicked from a party that in the LFG didn’t specify they did not want a specific class. The more disrespect that flies over the lines the worse our community gets.

I do not like how either side of the Spoj/Nemisis debates talk to each other, it just makes each side dig in deeper and keep going with hate that isn’t needed rather then constructive feedback the devs need to fix these types of issues.

Citronvand.2837:

So someone just said that spreadsheet DPS always uses the max value of an attack, that is to say if your weapon deals 1-10 damage they use 10 in their calculations, always. Is this true? Can someone confirm this.

EDIT: I’m referring to this post:

I think problems ensue because people are almost absolutly uninformed about how DPS is calculated by dnt.Dmg is normaly calculated like this:

DMG=weapon dmg*power*skill coefficient/2600(heavy armor).

If you go in game and start autoattacking you will see you are not getting same number every time,even crits have difrent values.This is because weapon dmg in GW2 has min and max value.
Dnt calculates dmg assuming weapon dmg will always be max for any and all skills used in dmg rotation from which they later calculate DPS.
If you go in game again and start autoattacking sequences of 30 attacks.You will see that no matter how many sequences you make neither of them will have attacks doing max weapon dmg all the time.What you will see tho is most of the time you will be getting 50/50 ,you will be doing AVRAGE WEAPON DMG.Sometimes you can get lucky or very lucky but you cant get absolutly lucky or absolutly unlucky.
When you see DPS on spreadsheet all the values there are calculated using max weapon dmg,all buffs and 100% DPS uptime.Simple truth is that spreadsheet DPS values can NEVER be achieved under any and all circumstances IN GAME,for simple reason of how game engine works.Game engine “forces” avrage weapon dmg.I have nothing against Dnt calculating max theoretical DPS,but I just cant accept that they misslead people by not explicitly saying:

“These DPS values cant happen in game”

Nike and other “like minded” people say things like:“we use these values to compare the professions DPS” Again by assuming that max weapon dmg will happen all the time they made it imposible to compare professions based on their DPS spreadsheets.
All main hand weapons in the game have avrage weapon dmg of 1000 but they have difrent max and min weapon dmg. So when you calculate dmg they all should have 1000 weapon dmg simply because game engine “forces” avrage weapon dmg.

In dnt calculation they use max weapon dmg and axe has 1100,dagger 1030,pistol 1080,sword 1050… We can clearly see that dnt calculations favors certain weapons and builds just because they want to calculate DPS they will never be able to replicate in game… If they would use avrage weapon dmg for their calculations two important things would happen.
First DPS values for the professions would go down but these numbers would be very similar to the numbers you would be getting in game.You would be able to compare professions without favoring any of them… Weapons like axe and rifle have high max weapon dmg and high variance.If you get lucky with axe you can get 10% more weapon dmg,but at a same time you can lose 10% weapon dmg,same goes for rifle.
Dagger on the other hand is the most consistent main hand weapon with variance of only 3%.Sword and greatsword are in the mid with 5% variance.

DnT and every other competent theory crafter uses average damage for those calculations.

I think Nemesis makes great points. And the general message I take from all of it is:

1) Don’t take people at their word when they tell you they’re getting X DPS numbers just because they sound confident.

2) Learn your class, so that you can play it well in a variety of situations. I spent about an hour tonight putting together a jungle build on my Ele and testing it. I got way more comfortable with my class in one hour of my own testing and reading the abilities than I get from two hours of reading and copying a rotation/build that somebody else made (a build that is highly situational, if it’s good at all).

Lesson learned. Use the “experts” as a way to gather opinions and ideas, not as a creed to follow.

Jephery.8915:

The point is that they don’t release builds and numbers in a vacuum. After they calculate what the theoretical ceiling is, they try to reach it.

A rule of thumb from WoW raiding is that you should try to consistently reach 90% of your SimCraft calculated dps. The calculations do translate into ingame experiences if you practice and the people you play with practice.

Basically this, with the caveat that how close you can get to that theoretical maximum fluctuates wildly from build to build – a sword revenant should have very little trouble getting very close to its theoretical maximum DPS on paper (111111111) while a condition engineer is going to have a lot of trouble even getting close (you can figure out completely optimal rotations that have you swapping kits for every single skill, but I’m confident no one actually does that, or that they even could with alacrity and quickness in the mix throwing it all off).

When you evaluate classes you do have to take the difference into account, because no one plays perfectly all the time, and how close you are going to get matters in practice.

In theory it also matters a lot if you are bad – you’d want to pick characters that do not fall off very hard and avoid ones that demand intricate combos – and in that case theoretical maximum DPS calculations from a spreadsheet are less informative.

My issue isn’t with “math in a void”. It’s more the fact that there’s just no math presented at all. Supposedly things are calculated and then they show a fancy graph and expect it to have some value when anyone can easily go do some ingame testing that shows the graph makes zero sense. If you say you’re doing math please present the math because it’s pretty obvious that it’s being done wrong.

Mallis.4295:

My issue isn’t with “math in a void”. It’s more the fact that there’s just no math presented at all. Supposedly things are calculated and then they show a fancy graph and expect it to have some value when anyone can easily go do some ingame testing that shows the graph makes zero sense. If you say you’re doing math please present the math because it’s pretty obvious that it’s being done wrong.

The problem with that is that making a sheet like that easily understood by someone who isn’t familiar with it requires a ton of extra work, and releasing it without doing that means you will spend a ton of time answering questions about how it works for people.

Back in my WoW days, I put all of my sheets up on EJ because there was a vast community of people savvy enough to digest a tool and discuss it intelligently. My very first publicly published gw2 sheet got downloaded less than 200 times (compared to over 6 thousand downloads for my first WoW spreadsheet) so the interest in the tools is much lower to begin with, and the ratio of people equipped to discuss intelligently on the official GW2 forums is way way lower than what existed on EJ back in the day.

My personal sheets get peer reviewed by a handful of people that I know to be competent, and I have done peer review for other theorycrafters as well.

I have sheets on my PC at home from numerous sources, and they are not producing exactly the same numbers, but they are directionally similar in most cases.

Mallis.4295:

If you say you’re doing math please present the math because it’s pretty obvious that it’s being done wrong.

If you have an example, please share it.

I have my own sheets, and they calculate different scenarios with variables being set as poor to closer to ideal in order to give me an idea of the change of classes under different conditions. I don’t pretend they are close to reality, I wouldn’t dare show any good number cruncher proposing it as a viable alternative to their work ( I kinda make them once in a while just to practice my excel use). What it does do, however, is give me relative positions of different classes under certain circumstances, and which class feature does what for the class in terms of relative damage. With this I predict between what battle conditions I am about to face and choose a response that based on my data is more likely to be the proper response than blindly choosing.

All this theory crafting is compared to actual experience to test its validity, and the end decision is rarely based solely on the computed “best”, it is rather another factor to take into account.

There are a few things I would like to add.

First and formost – Mallis – there are a lot of people here who don’t get math. They simply do not get how math works. Going through the trouble of explaining it to them would be basically teaching them basic math that they don’t even understand.

I’ve had it happen – I’m not a maths expert but when 100b damage was changed so that there was a damage drop on some strikes but not the last strike people did not understand what was going on – there were many threads where people simply thought the entire skill was nerfed by a large percentage.
100blades has 8 strikes – and each strike with the exception of the last one was nerfed by 5. People in a thread were actually adding up 5% for each of the 7 strikes and concluded that the skill had been nerfed by 35%.

That’s why showing numbers to people is hard – and it’s even harder when you’re using functions, graphs and more advanced formulas.

A second issue is that the meta is an ideal – it is something people strive for – regardless of whether or not it is attainable in game the fact that a player adheres to the vision of “the meta” indicates that he is a certain type of player.

It’s a way of recognizing like-minded individuals. People who want the most rewards for their time spent, people who want clean and easy runs, people who want standardization and a unification of methods and means in order to obtain an effective result.

I don’t run with non-meta players most often not because the meta says their class is bad but because by refusing to adhere to the meta they have proven to me they’re not like me.
By being non-meta you make a statement about yourself – and that statement means meta players won’t want to play with you.

Adhering to the meta means more than just dps in a spreadsheet or on a golem – it means you’re playing the game a certain way, that you’re taking it seriously enough to look for “the best way” and that you have value as a standardized teammate.

Skoigoth.9238:

So, why does he make such a big deal out of it? Why does he try to hold other content creators responsible for the action of rude people in random PuGs? Why is he on this rather ridiculous crusade against “the elitists”, whomever exactly he means with that.

Because people don’t want to be left out. I’ve been there with ranger many times. People will say oh sorry your class is useless because X speedruns team does not use ranger. That’s literally how dumb some people are.

Nemesis has some obvious language barriers. He knows what he knows and hes sticking to that. Yes it does get repetitive. He does have some valid points. One of them being that a number of people suggested that necro is not good for a speed run comp are somewhat to blame for necro being kick in causal runs. Saying that a class is below optimal is valid and promotes people to value and devalue classes.

The issue is context of where other people are using this knowledge.

• Is it bad for speedruns? no because the group can clear and set a record at X time with out X class.
• Is it bad for casual runs? yes, because you have billybob.6969 telling you and me that our classes are crap and kicking us in lfg for no reason other than they think our class is bad.

Another is on the whole point of vacuum dps… which frankly I agree with there are to many variables to make it reliable. For example I did calcs a while back on ranger to see what the highest possible maul is. Surprisingly you can hit upwards to 40k in wvw on a human player in exotic gear. The chances of seeing the likes is never and is unusable because of all the variables required. I know its possible but I would never go around suggesting that I hit 40k( or even higher than 15k often) which is what some people seem to do.

@OP vacum dps is only worthwhile to talk about in the meta when your playing high end high mechanical skill gameplay with other people that are at the exact same level. Were talking less than 0.5% of players. For the other 99.5% of us yea its cool but in reality all those numbers go out the window because people make mistakes and thus makes these numbers and rotations impossible. These numbers should not dictate the meta, and real dps and support should be valued.

Harper.4173:

A second issue is that the meta is an ideal – it is something people strive for – regardless of whether or not it is attainable in game the fact that a player adheres to the vision of “the meta” indicates that he is a certain type of player.

I don’t run with non-meta players most often not because the meta says their class is bad but because by refusing to adhere to the meta they have proven to me they’re not like me.
By being non-meta you make a statement about yourself – and that statement means meta players won’t want to play with you.

Adhering to the meta means more than just dps in a spreadsheet or on a golem – it means you’re playing the game a certain way, that you’re taking it seriously enough to look for “the best way” and that you have value as a standardized teammate.

This whole stance is really saddening to see. You refuse to group with players because X player is going to cost your run a mere 30 seconds because they do not have the most optimal setup for you.

It’s hysterical to think your some sort of good player because you play meta. It more often just shows that you are a sheep. A good player will clear the dungeon/fractal/whatevercontent without being downed. What they use does not matter. If they can do that they have over 75% of the player base beat because they are doing more damage then most of the players, which spend half(or more) of their time on their bottoms on the ground.

Eval.2371:

This whole stance is really saddening to see. You refuse to group with players because X player is going to cost your run a mere 30 seconds because they do not have the most optimal setup for you.

It’s hysterical to think your some sort of good player because you play meta. It more often just shows that you are a sheep. A good player will clear the dungeon/fractal/whatevercontent without being downed. What they use does not matter. If they can do that they have over 75% of the player base beat because they are doing more damage then most of the players, which spend half(or more) of their time on their bottoms on the ground.

I refuse to group with player X because his goals, his means and the way he enjoys the game ruin my enjoyment of the game. It’s as simple as that.
It’s not about optimal set-up – I wouldn’t say no to a berserker meta player just because he doesn’t have ascended.

I would say no to an ascended geared non-meta player because his lack of adherence to a meta signals that he’s not like me and thus my chances of having a fun experience with that person in my party are significantly lower.

I did not say playing the meta means you’re a good player – I said it means you’re a standardized teammate – and that’s what I’m looking for. Someone that’s willing to be that and is similar to me.

I’ll take a not-amazing, fairly decent meta player that knows where to stack, what to skip and how to move over the best GW2 player in all existence that aggros all the mobs, YOLOSWAGS his way through encounters and generally does whatever he wants.

Why? because i enjoy playing a certain way and the second type of player ruins that enjoyment for me.

What they use does matter – it might matter more or less in terms of actual clear time but it matters more in terms of showing me what mentality they adhere to and what type of player they are. I cannot explain this more clearly.

Also staying alive is as you mention it relevant – but ideally one should look for teammates that can stay alive 100% of the time while doing the maximum amount of damage they can possibly do in game in order to shorten the time till we obtain the rewards.

Use a dps meter and figure out your own dps. That is the most accurate way. There are a number of legal usable dps meters for GW2. They just aren’t promoted very much because people are afraid you’ll see through the lies.

Pre-HoT my condition necro was capable of doing 7.1k dps with no buffs (might/fury/quickness) on a champ Husk.

Haven’t retested since HoT launched, but I suspect my new build is closer to 9k.

In a group setting with constant 25 might, perma fury and high quickness/alacrity uptime I think it would be closer to 12k, but I haven’t bothered to test in those conditions. My results are posted in the necro forum if you are interested in actual numbers.

Theoretical math is good for its intended purpose. If one class has a max dps of 20k and one has a max dps of 10k, then even in terrible situations it is highly likely that the 20k class will be doing more damage than the 10k class. Support classes can have lower dps since they buff the rest of the groups dps. No one cares if a herald or PS warrior does 20% less dps because they are boosting the group dps by 50%.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Theoretical math is good for its intended purpose. If one class has a max dps of 20k and one has a max dps of 10k, then even in terrible situations it is highly likely that the 20k class will be doing more damage than the 10k class.

But that was actually wrong. In one example Revenant had 25k theoretical DPS and Necro had 14k. But when you actually tested it in-game it showed that Revenant’s real DPS was 10k while the Necro’s was 12k.

Citronvand.2837:

But that was actually wrong. In one example Revenant had 25k theoretical DPS and Necro had 14k. But when you actually tested it in-game it showed that Revenant’s real DPS was 10k while the Necro’s was 12k.

This is an anecdote. That’s like saying, “My 6 year old is left handed, and he’s 4 feet tall. I’m right handed and I’m just under 6 feet tall. Therefore left handed people must be short”

Knox.8962:

Citronvand.2837:

But that was actually wrong. In one example Revenant had 25k theoretical DPS and Necro had 14k. But when you actually tested it in-game it showed that Revenant’s real DPS was 10k while the Necro’s was 12k.

This is an anecdote. That’s like saying, “My 6 year old is left handed, and he’s 4 feet tall. I’m right handed and I’m just under 6 feet tall. Therefore left handed people must be short”

It depends on the encounter and the mechanics behind the encounter. You can’t just say that, well, the theoretical DPS is 20k therefore in reality it is probably 10-15k. That’s wrong because there are so many variables in a fight. Some fights zerk power melee have a higher DPS and other fights they have low DPS. The same is true for other builds, that is my point.

So even if build X have a theoretical higher DPS than build Y it doesn’t mean that build X deal more damage in the game. Because the theoretical DPS does not take into account all the mechanics of the game, and it assumes a lot of things such as all buffs, 100% DPS uptime e.t.c.

Knox.8962:

Citronvand.2837:

But that was actually wrong. In one example Revenant had 25k theoretical DPS and Necro had 14k. But when you actually tested it in-game it showed that Revenant’s real DPS was 10k while the Necro’s was 12k.

This is an anecdote. That’s like saying, “My 6 year old is left handed, and he’s 4 feet tall. I’m right handed and I’m just under 6 feet tall. Therefore left handed people must be short”

That is a pretty bad anecdote. What hes talking about is not one.
It’s a comparison of theory vs real dps. In both cases for necro and revenant.

In your terms:

You think your child is 7 feet tall but after measuring you realize hes only 4 feet tall. You think you are 6 feet tall but again after measuring you realize you are actually 5’5. Your still taller than your child.

His example was that theoretical max damage for 2 classes were available, but he “proved” that the math was wrong by telling about this one time that Rev did less damage than necro.

That’s like refuting that men are taller than women by comparing a WNBA player to a male gymnast.

Falanu.4289:

Obtena.7952:

The bottom line is: if you have any capacity to think for yourself, do so and come to your own conclusions; this isn’t rocket science. The math on a spreadsheet only takes you so far. Don’t be a sheep.

This, but the biggie is openly hidden in the if-clause. As long as people think that a 50% chance means that every second try is going to succeed and base their calculations on this mistake, don’t expect too much.

Quote Mark Twain: [i]“It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

I would love to see anet make these approaches impossible by making the mobs much more flexible, eg. by changing their classes, making them chase you forever. This would eliminate a huge amount of problems from this game and make achievements desirable again.

Of course, this also means that the crafting system had to be overdone in more than one way.

This is how I see it: based on how inaccurate the current calculations are, leading to bad conclusions, how can the average person do any worse?

Knox.8962:

Citronvand.2837:

But that was actually wrong. In one example Revenant had 25k theoretical DPS and Necro had 14k. But when you actually tested it in-game it showed that Revenant’s real DPS was 10k while the Necro’s was 12k.

This is an anecdote. That’s like saying, “My 6 year old is left handed, and he’s 4 feet tall. I’m right handed and I’m just under 6 feet tall. Therefore left handed people must be short”

It’s not an ancedote … it’s an example where the calculations don’t even scale in a way that allow a person to make comparisons of damage BETWEEN classes in the ranges of damage that are actually attainable ingame.; their are lots of others. If the theorycrafters don’t incorporate a way to model more game mechanics, the calculations don’t really do anything other than give you some completely unrealistic damage ceiling for a very specific scenario.

It demonstrates that in one specific instance a video of a revenant playing poorly was taken. That is not data, that is 100% anecdotal evidence.

That doesn’t change the fact that the calculations don’t scale correctly to allow players to make comparisons between classes.

Would you also conclude that we can no longer assume that rabbits are smaller than horses? I think most people would be comfortable drawing on overwhelming data for this, but that is a pretty huge rabbit….