Guild Wars 2

My favorite class is a medium armor wearer but sadly, 99% of the medium armor out there is trench coats…. I do NOT wan’t to wear a trench coat. It doesn’t fit with the type of character I made and I don’t want to feel obligated to buy t3 cultural just to get the look that I like the most/hate the least (basically the same thing here). There are a few real nice medium armors for male characters that would look GREAT on mine… but whenever I look up the female versions they are either trench coats or pure kitten (if this is blocked, it means a “generous” lady).

this is the worst part about GW2 IMO, armor looks the same

I just want to add my vote here as well. This topic is really nothing new, and should imo be considered seriously.

There are I think two outfits appropriate to a thief, and none appropriate to a ranger. Trenchcoats and Pirates are ok for eng I suppose, but I have yet to lvl a med armor class because the look I want is just not there.

These are just my opinions, but I know they are shared, and not new. There was talk in map chat in Queensdale with the newbies over this exact issue yesterday. If new players aren’t enticed by the med armor sets, then we will get less new med armor players.

No good medium armour?!

C’mon… there is the trench-coat with the buttons… the trench-coat with leather patches… the embroidered trench-coat… the pirate trench-coat… the possibilities are nearly endless! (unless you can count to 4)

Don’t forget, if you are a Norn, you get a bigger trench-coat than you do if you play an Asura, so that’s different too. Oh, and you can dye your trench-coat like 48 shades of off-tan and non-grey.

With the exception of about 2-3 “nicer” medium armour sets, the medium designs make angels cry.

^ well said sir

I like the options for trenchcoats and they actually fit a thief-theme perfectly. I’m not sure why people think thieves would travel around in like…tight spandex or something. Thieves want to blend in, be unnoticed, and have many pockets to hide things in. The coats are perfect for that.

However, I do agree that there simply isn’t enough options for appearance. But I don’t feel that’s a medium-armor thing so much as it’s a problem throughout the whole game. We should be able to display whatever gear we wish for appearance regardless of armor-type imo.

I agree. Medium armors definitely do not look that nice. I have seen all light armors and heavy armors. You clearly can’t compare. i got an 80 ranger and I don’t even want to bother with getting new medium armors.

Azurefall.4968:

No good medium armour?!

C’mon… there is the trench-coat with the buttons… the trench-coat with leather patches… the embroidered trench-coat… the pirate trench-coat… the possibilities are nearly endless! (unless you can count to 4)

Don’t forget, if you are a Norn, you get a bigger trench-coat than you do if you play an Asura, so that’s different too. Oh, and you can dye your trench-coat like 48 shades of off-tan and non-grey.

With the exception of about 2-3 “nicer” medium armour sets, the medium designs make angels cry.

Great Answer

My thief wears Duelist set, im still working on colours atm its purple and blue.
http://dulfy.net/2012/08/11/skimpy-armors-in-gw2a-list/ has a list of good looking skins

Kinglette.4906:

My thief wears Duelist set, im still working on colours atm its purple and blue.
http://dulfy.net/2012/08/11/skimpy-armors-in-gw2a-list/ has a list of good looking skins

It’s funny, because I think all the skins for women on that list look ridiculous and much too revealing. It’s supposed to be armor, not the latest designer piece for a fashion show. The “heavy” armor is especially sad. I’ll take a trenchcoat over those skins any day.

That said, I wouldn’t be against some more medium armor skins that look cool, but aren’t trenchcoats.

You can try the Heritage top too which isn’t too trenchcoaty and match it with other medium armor sets if you don’t like the overall look of the Heritage set. Very classy.

It’s funny, because I think all the skins for women on that list look ridiculous and much too revealing. It’s supposed to be armor, not the latest designer piece for a fashion show. The “heavy” armor is especially sad. I’ll take a trenchcoat over those skins any day.

That said, I wouldn’t be against some more medium armor skins that look cool, but aren’t trenchcoats.

Technically, most skimpy outfits in this game is the “light armor” which in GW1 sense means no damage reduction at all. A light armor user in GW1 took exactly the damage written on the skill tooltips. You can consider it the same here : the “light armor” isn’t for protection but for the magical enhancements given.

it does make sense to be skimpy on light armor (more than the other classes I mean) but still armor should be armor, not a bra and spandex. Human has a great thief outfit in their t3 cultural for girls (chest is a lil too skimpy but overall pretty good), but sadly, my thief is a norn. The norn t3 is only alright but still not the look I want. The BEST outfit I’ve found for my thief is sadly a light armor or a male medium set… so they’re out of the question.

If any of you are interested as to which I was referring to as imo the best FEMALE thief outfits, here are the links:
http://www.gw2armor.com/norn/male/named/medium/display_looks.php
face from here… actually after looking at it closer, it would be perfect if it dropped the skirt alltogether http://www.gw2armor.com/norn/female/named/light/display_looks.php
chest is a lil kitteny but the legs, arms, shoulders are amazing http://www.gw2armor.com/human/female/c3/medium/display_looks.php
and like in many of them, remove the skirt to make them even better http://www.gw2armor.com/norn/male/whispers/light/display_looks.php

Agreed medium armor is terrible, even more so on Asura where my trench coat has less detail

Do wonder if the models used are modular enough that they could have a “tail/skirt” kind of checkbox. Or expand on that idea and even provide a “skimpy” checkbox that would hide or make sheer certain areas of armors. We already have examples of long gloves that will hide certain sections if worn alongside long sleeved tops (tho i wish i could instead opt for shorter sleeves at times).

Would allow for more modular armory without the need to make a a ton more models.

You know, I see a lot of complaining and not a lot of suggestions. If you guys hate the armor so much what would you do differently? Just telling Anet that the one theme they went with sucks isn’t going to help at all when they seem to love long coats.

There’s criticism and them there’s constructive criticism.

Unless, of course, this is just another cleverly disguised “I find it hard to fap to my female toon with all this clothing in the way” kind of thread.

Its not really Rocket Science
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120921035150/dragonsdogma/images/e/e6/RANGER.png
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-18/art/dd-magic-archer.jpg
http://forgottenrealmstales.host56.com/Images/ranger.jpg
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100713000826/aion/images/e/e9/Ranger.png
http://bestgamewallpapers.com/files/perfect-world/winged-elf-archer.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m71go0lMNh1qf47sno1_1280.jpg
http://www.freakygaming.com/gallery/game_art/heroes_of_might_and_magic_5/human_archer_male.jpg
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-11/art/ff14-render-archer.jpg
http://www.watchcartoononline.com/thumbs/Archer-Season-2-Episode-2--A-Going-Concern.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZIlWjCM_M7E/SYuyKu10JZI/AAAAAAAAAFw/OH2LpJPW2K8/s400/archer.jpg
http://www.9ori.com/store/media/images/35f0a54be7.jpg
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs36/f/2008/251/4/d/Helena_the_archer_by_3dsquid.jpg
http://www.wocstudios.com/images/archer.jpg
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRI1kJ1wouDGW6nUIifZRi90EMRSKX6ZxyIjXzUECla_EeNtsfdghBFRBV4mg
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs43/f/2009/074/e/b/RL__Archer_by_tooaya.jpg
http://digital-art-gallery.com/oid/1/610x907_1005_Myo_2d_illustration_character_archer_girl_female_woman_fantasy_elf_picture_image_digital_art.jpg
http://danshareza.com/images/archer_char_concept.jpg

2sec in Google and i found multiple amazing concepts. c’mon Anet Trench Coats aren’t popular at all..

Personally, I don’t mind the trenchcoats, but I do wish I had a wider selection of pants to choose from. Right now, the closest thing I could get to a Subligar would be the Vigil pants … which obviously means you have to part of the Vigil to purchase it. Otherwise, I get mostly skin-tight pants. Would be nice to have cargo pants, baggy pants, maybe even MC Hammer pants!

Dante.1508:

http://forgottenrealmstales.host56.com/Images/ranger.jpg

kitten bow on that one and
http://digital-art-gallery.com/oid/1/610x907_1005_Myo_2d_illustration_character_archer_girl_female_woman_fantasy_elf_picture_image_digital_art.jpg
would be awesome
overall 90% of your photos are 100% win

Ari Kagura.9182:

Personally, I don’t mind the trenchcoats, but I do wish I had a wider selection of pants to choose from. Right now, the closest thing I could get to a Subligar would be the Vigil pants … which obviously means you have to part of the Vigil to purchase it. Otherwise, I get mostly skin-tight pants. Would be nice to have cargo pants, baggy pants, maybe even MC Hammer pants!

pants?? I haven’t seen the pants on my thief since I’ve started playing (about 500 hours on her) cause of those kitten trench coats covering them up all the time.

I don’t know why a thief cannot wear a hood.

Medium armors are trench coats, heavy armor are skirts and light armor are robes.

Pretty ugly.

I agree that medium armor needs more diversified armor skin, but please, no more skimpy armor, for thieves and rangers it looks dumb. Just think about it a minute… why would your thief want to attract attention on herself, and why would a woodrunner like your ranger hunt half-naked? It might be a fantasy game but it doesn’t mean that the armor sets don’t need to make sense.

I think we have enough trenchcoats, but the new medium armors should still look stealthy or have camouflage because it fits the themes of all professions wearing them. (Except maybe engineers but as a ranged profession I don’t see them wanting skimpy gear either.)

stof.9341:

You can try the Heritage top too which isn’t too trenchcoaty and match it with other medium armor sets if you don’t like the overall look of the Heritage set. Very classy.

It’s funny, because I think all the skins for women on that list look ridiculous and much too revealing. It’s supposed to be armor, not the latest designer piece for a fashion show. The “heavy” armor is especially sad. I’ll take a trenchcoat over those skins any day.

That said, I wouldn’t be against some more medium armor skins that look cool, but aren’t trenchcoats.

Technically, most skimpy outfits in this game is the “light armor” which in GW1 sense means no damage reduction at all. A light armor user in GW1 took exactly the damage written on the skill tooltips. You can consider it the same here : the “light armor” isn’t for protection but for the magical enhancements given.

If that were consistent between the sexes you may have a point but if you look at the male light armor they are covered head to toe.

Bearhugger.4326:

I agree that medium armor needs more diversified armor skin, but please, no more skimpy armor, for thieves and rangers it looks dumb. Just think about it a minute… why would your thief want to attract attention on herself, and why would a woodrunner like your ranger hunt half-naked? It might be a fantasy game but it doesn’t mean that the armor sets don’t need to make sense.

I think we have enough trenchcoats, but the new medium armors should still look stealthy or have camouflage because it fits the themes of all professions wearing them. (Except maybe engineers but as a ranged profession I don’t see them wanting skimpy gear either.)

Thief’s have almost no form fitting or skimpy armor to chose from.

I disagree with your opinion that a thief should were bulky clothing. It would attract attention for a thief to be wearing clothing that makes noise. Thief’s need less clothing so they can move quietly and hide to blend in with the population.

Anet need to add a new dimension to thief’s by letting them actually steal. Even if it’s just for trophies or to create events.

Onshidesigns.1069:

Thief’s have almost no form fitting or skimpy armor to chose from.

I disagree with your opinion that a thief should were bulky clothing. It would attract attention for a thief to be wearing clothing that makes noise. Thief’s need less clothing so they can move quietly and hide to blend in with the population.

I don’t want them to wear bulky armor like warriors, I simply want them to wear armor that looks like what a thief would wear. You know it’s well designed when you look at the character and you know right away that it’s a thief. You won’t really figure it’s a thief if she wears leather thongs… Unless she wears a mask but I think you’ll agree that it would look ridiculous to wear a mask if you’re not covering the rest of your body.

Skimpy gear works for light armor users because they don’t need armor in the first place, and for a mesmer it 100% makes sense to dress like that; they should look… well, mesmerizing.

It also works for heavy armor users (at least warriors) because they are strong, athletic and fit characters, so it makes sense that they’d want to show some of their powerful body to intimidate. (Or at least the human males and all norns since most human females look anorexic.)

But no, I don’t see a reason for medium armor users to wear that. They need stuff that looks stealthy, sneaky, ninja-ish (which is form-fitting by the way) or dark, all that coming with a nice assortment of hats and masks. The current medium armors that are exposing look reasonable enough to me, they shouldn’t go as overboard for that type of armor as they did for light or heavy armors because it would denature the professions that wear it, especially thieves and rangers.

There should be a variety. If you don’t like the skimpy armor, don’t wear it.

Plenty of cultures run or ran through the woods or jungles or plains without being covered head to toe.

Thief isn’t just burglar or ninja.

But all that aside, you’re complaining about realistic clothing on people’s thieves and rangers when my Asura Engineer is running around with one of her three laser rifles, trailing her toy golem and randomly changing into a toy golem herself?

not complaining about realism compared to the real world, just wanting an outfit that better suits the character. Also what’s wrong with wanting an armor that is more than tassels and whips? I just want to have the light armor blindfold and a non-skirt/trench coat looking jacket and pants. The medium armor chest has amazing arms but those aren’t affiliated with the gloves so it just isn’t worth having. As it stands, I feel that human t3 cultural is the only set worth having, which really punishes us norn/asura/char/sylvari players.

… actually the sylvari one isn’t bad… still too plant-like for my tastes and I’m still a norn

MisterEction.9382:

But all that aside, you’re complaining about realistic clothing on people’s thieves and rangers when my Asura Engineer is running around with one of her three laser rifles, trailing her toy golem and randomly changing into a toy golem herself?

I never said anything about realism, I’m talking about fitting with the general themes of the classes, and some of the suggestions I see for medium armor are just as unfitting as clown armor would be for engi, thieves and rangers.

Substance E.4852:

You know, I see a lot of complaining and not a lot of suggestions. If you guys hate the armor so much what would you do differently? Just telling Anet that the one theme they went with sucks isn’t going to help at all when they seem to love long coats.

There’s criticism and them there’s constructive criticism.

Unless, of course, this is just another cleverly disguised “I find it hard to fap to my female toon with all this clothing in the way” kind of thread.

Here’s my suggestion : GW1 Ranger : http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ranger_armor
Massive variation; some long coats, some leather armors, some with scales, some with fur.
They’ve done so well before – all the need to do is include some like those. In fact, update them for better graphics & other races in the same way they did for the Kryta armor in the store, and that’d be fine. For some of them, I’d even pay real money for!

As for your “unless”, there’s already options for that. There’s just no middle-ground. It’s massive coat or skin-tight almost-nothing.

And while we’re on the subject, I’d also like some non-skirt Light legs – what’s wrong with trousers? The AC set almost does it, but on the whole there’s very little. I hate to leap back to “GW1 had it!”, but something like the Mesmer’s (Elite) Rogue set, or the Elementalist’s FoW set would be awesome.

I agree with ya OP luckily i had full set carry over from GW1 HoM rewards of the heritage set looks dang good compared rest the medium armors I’ve seen so far I haven’t seen 80 armors exotic or better just hit 80 few nights ago.
What we need some GW1 medium looks lol That game was master of cosmetics.

Bearhugger.4326:

Onshidesigns.1069:

Thief’s have almost no form fitting or skimpy armor to chose from.

I disagree with your opinion that a thief should were bulky clothing. It would attract attention for a thief to be wearing clothing that makes noise. Thief’s need less clothing so they can move quietly and hide to blend in with the population.

I don’t want them to wear bulky armor like warriors, I simply want them to wear armor that looks like what a thief would wear. You know it’s well designed when you look at the character and you know right away that it’s a thief. You won’t really figure it’s a thief if she wears leather thongs… Unless she wears a mask but I think you’ll agree that it would look ridiculous to wear a mask if you’re not covering the rest of your body.

Skimpy gear works for light armor users because they don’t need armor in the first place, and for a mesmer it 100% makes sense to dress like that; they should look… well, mesmerizing.

It also works for heavy armor users (at least warriors) because they are strong, athletic and fit characters, so it makes sense that they’d want to show some of their powerful body to intimidate. (Or at least the human males and all norns since most human females look anorexic.)

But no, I don’t see a reason for medium armor users to wear that. They need stuff that looks stealthy, sneaky, ninja-ish (which is form-fitting by the way) or dark, all that coming with a nice assortment of hats and masks. The current medium armors that are exposing look reasonable enough to me, they shouldn’t go as overboard for that type of armor as they did for light or heavy armors because it would denature the professions that wear it, especially thieves and rangers.

Thief’s do need “stealthy, sneaky, ninja-ish”. But they also don’t want to draw attention when in crowd. Or by disguising themselves it get closer to what they want to steal.

Whiles I have to say this thread need to be considered seriously, I also want to add the crafting medium, light, and heavy armor luck the variation. Where is the sylvari looking crafting gears. For me when I put on those leather armor for my ranger who is a sylvari by the way, I kind if feel very disappointed because the only way to get any that looks good on her is the sylvari culture tier gear or Twilight arbour gear.

I agree GW1 had way more Variation in armor sets.

Dante.1508:

I agree GW1 had way more Variation in armor sets.

Before or after the expansion packs? No matter how you look at it, GW2 is a just released MMO and it cannot have as much variety of content than older MMOs. The amount of skins available is enough for now and will obviously get expanded over time.

I’d prefer if the way the armor sets looked on the character changed depending on class. For example, the armor on the thieves would still be trenchcoats, but the armor on rangers would look more like those Dante showed, and the engineers would have outfits that look more like jumpsuits or something, the sort of thing set up to absorb damage (you know those crazy Priory engineers, combining tech and magic to better the world…and their own survival).

RyuDragnier.9476:

I’d prefer if the way the armor sets looked on the character changed depending on class. For example, the armor on the thieves would still be trenchcoats, but the armor on rangers would look more like those Dante showed, and the engineers would have outfits that look more like jumpsuits or something, the sort of thing set up to absorb damage (you know those crazy Priory engineers, combining tech and magic to better the world…and their own survival).

But they change already somewhat depending on race. It’d probably cause too many variations and too much of a cost to remake every armor skin for each class.

I’m okay with most of the medium armors/trench coats as a Ranger, but I don’t like some of the headgears. Masks are generally fine, but monocles and that half-skull thing are just weird on a Ranger. As for the level 80 crafted exotic armor…

http://www.gw2armor.com/human/male/crafted/medium/front.jpg

Yeah… the Shredder thing doesn’t seem like it’d suit any of the medium armor classes, IMO, but I guess there’s just no accounting for taste. :T

I had a hard time finding a good armor for my ranger, and I’m still not completely satisfied. (Female Sylvari). But you’re wrong in saying that all medium armors look the same. There are lots of different choices. Look there (unfortunately, some screenshots are still missing) : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_armor_sets

My ranger uses Order of Whispers top+bottom, Caudecus gloves+boots (all 4 transmuted on my old crafted armor) and not displayed (crafted) shoulders+head. She looks nice. I also looted a Shiro top today in fractals, which is a skin that had no wiki image when I choose my armor —> nice too

This is not the only option. I have already choosen armor for my lvl4 Thief (female Sylvari too) : TA Armor, and my lvl2 engineer (female norn) : one of the cultural norn armors.

There is still ONE complaint i’d like to do : HotW medium armor really looks nice. I was about to buy it for my ranger … until I had the idea to move the camera in the preview window. The back really looks horrible, like some ragged clothes. Since I often see my characters from the back, I had to give up buying this :’(

I have to agree being a Charr Thief, I’m tired of my tail (and gear) clipping coats. There are some really nice looking light armors out there that fit the whole stealth vibe imo. Personally love my headband I got @ lvl1. Wish there were more unique wears, like the Mad King’s heavy chest armor (basically straps). Would love that on my thief! I spose nobody wants to lose their armor now that these are the sets but =(.

I must say though that I am glad there is a decent variety in asymetrical armor. Being able to toggle gloves/shoulders would be really sick but thats another topic…

Yea the medium armor could use a bit more variety BUT in time more medium armor will be added so its not so bad. Just like GW1 and all the great armor that came with Factions, Night Fall and Eye of the North. The game is still evolving..

stof.9341:

Dante.1508:

I agree GW1 had way more Variation in armor sets.

Before or after the expansion packs? No matter how you look at it, GW2 is a just released MMO and it cannot have as much variety of content than older MMOs. The amount of skins available is enough for now and will obviously get expanded over time.

There’s a difference between amount of skins and variety within skins, GW2 has a fair few skins but the variety in them isn’t particularly high. Most of the medium armors are basically the same as are male light armors. There’s a few exceptions here and there but for the most part they are awfully similiar.

kind of armor for intermediate … it would be nice, I guess …

Dante.1508:

Its not really Rocket Science
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120921035150/dragonsdogma/images/e/e6/RANGER.png
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-18/art/dd-magic-archer.jpg
http://forgottenrealmstales.host56.com/Images/ranger.jpg
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100713000826/aion/images/e/e9/Ranger.png
http://bestgamewallpapers.com/files/perfect-world/winged-elf-archer.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m71go0lMNh1qf47sno1_1280.jpg
http://www.freakygaming.com/gallery/game_art/heroes_of_might_and_magic_5/human_archer_male.jpg
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-11/art/ff14-render-archer.jpg
http://www.watchcartoononline.com/thumbs/Archer-Season-2-Episode-2--A-Going-Concern.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZIlWjCM_M7E/SYuyKu10JZI/AAAAAAAAAFw/OH2LpJPW2K8/s400/archer.jpg
http://www.9ori.com/store/media/images/35f0a54be7.jpg
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs36/f/2008/251/4/d/Helena_the_archer_by_3dsquid.jpg
http://www.wocstudios.com/images/archer.jpg
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRI1kJ1wouDGW6nUIifZRi90EMRSKX6ZxyIjXzUECla_EeNtsfdghBFRBV4mg
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs43/f/2009/074/e/b/RL__Archer_by_tooaya.jpg
http://digital-art-gallery.com/oid/1/610x907_1005_Myo_2d_illustration_character_archer_girl_female_woman_fantasy_elf_picture_image_digital_art.jpg
http://danshareza.com/images/archer_char_concept.jpg

2sec in Google and i found multiple amazing concepts. c’mon Anet Trench Coats aren’t popular at all..

Yeah, not really making your point.

Several of these characters have long coat leather type armors. The skimpy female options while not especially as many compared to the other classes, are still there for the medium armor class.

The armor also isn’t made just for ranger in mind, but also for the thief and engi. The more armored archer characters look like warriors with a bow.

Which you can do in game right now. Cool pics though some of these.

RELLIK.7563:

I have to agree being a Charr Thief, I’m tired of my tail (and gear) clipping coats.

Agreed. Fix these little things and we’re golden. Long coats are awesome. Moar!

I agree. Medium armor needs some variety. Less trench coats, more variety.

Also I don’t know why my slyvari has hips the size of an elephant when wearing a trench coat, it makes the problem significantly more annoying though. At least they look normal on humans.

I would be happy with a set that was just plain non-fancy pants and a simple shirt with a vest, with plain non-fancy boots and gloves and furthermore I would jump up and down with joy for three or four varieties of such a set.

Lol, I just started a Norn-Thief because of the skins.

However more variety would be highly appreciated – for light armor too pleeeeease. I couldn’t find any armor I liked for my mesmer.

I like the trenchcoats and created my human engineer because of the medium armor. However, I dislike the light armor on most races.

For light armor, on the humans, norn, and sylvari, there aren’t many options that aren’t revealing. Light armor on my female asura is almost all pants (would like more robes and skirts!).

More options are always appreciated!

I found 99% of the medium armour was not to my liking, made me look big and bulky, the further you go up the scale, the bigger and bulkier it looks.

I’m a female Ranger, small sized.

So my armour is transfused to level 1 gear, which l like, it’s nice and light, and doesn’t look heavy with a great big trenchcoat.

projectcedric.6951:

I don’t know why a thief cannot wear a hood.

Umm…they can. I have one sitting in my bank.

My medium armour character is a small female human ranger. I also dislike the trenchcoats but thought that the full tier 3 cultural set made you look like a thief/assasin.
So I decided to mix things up a bit. I went for tier 3 chest/legs, tier 2 (the most archer-like set) shoulders/gloves/mask and due to clipping issues withe the tier 3 and the tier 2 boots, AC dungeons boots. I think the end result has a definate archer feel without being swathed in a huge coat.

Some more affordable options would indeed have been nice though!