Guild Wars 2

So I’ve played since launch and lately I cant even log in because the game is so boring to me. I PvE, mostly dungeon or fotm and this zerker meta is literally killing the game. Just recently a old gw2 member named Nemesis uploaded a video on this subject and he hit alot of points that I’ve noticed and even more than I didn’t notice. (GJ nemesis!)

So this meta is all about DPS, Corner stacking, Glitching and exploiting.. Some evidence…

-The meta is DPS because its all Zerker gear (out of the 23 stat prefix’s, guess anet just wanted to make different stat gear for giggles)

-Corner stacking doesn’t need evidence, everyone has done it but it’s common in MMO’s and isn’t a problem unless it’s mixed with the other 3 parts of the meta.

-Glitching is a serious problem but people do it and it’s literally accepted as part of the meta. A few examples are CM attacking people through walls, CM climbing wall by Frost in P1 to take 0 damage, CM P2 running the boss between 2 plateau’s to become completely stuck, etc. I only mentioned CM but there’s glitching in every dungeon, just youtube “gw2 Glitch (whatever dungeon)” and you’ll be met with video proof.

- Exploiting is just stupid and yet people still do it to Lupi with reflecting his attacks to down him in seconds. Obviously this isn’t challenging content for a boss in a dungeon yet now it’s accepted as ok? wtf man. There are more but I draw a fine line between glitching and exploiting so i’ll let you choose.

So as nemesis states in his video “Gw2 abondonded the holy trinity to become…just dps?” It’s literally gotten to a point where people are stating that certain classes are sub par and should not be taken for optimal dps. How is this better? I for one think it’s literally ludicious and now with HoT coming I’m sending the Dev’s a message…" You have the opportunity to fix what has been left to grow into such a big problem. The ball’s in your court, Please stay true to your word to make this MMO the be all end all MMO"

Just so you know (Nemesis says this as well), 3.5 million copies of the game has been sold since launch but only 443k views on the expansion reveal video. These number’s are fairly alarming as the majority of players still interested in the game would of watched the video already. New or returning players will be greeted by looking up videos of corner stacking, glitching, all dps numbers and most likely turn away from the game as it’s bad advertising.

What does everyone else think about gw2 current state? Is all this ok?

Link to Nemesis video as it’s very informative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js5ltIBr73s

I’m waiting to see what happens with HoT, but I’m not too excited about it. Traits aren’t going to fix the way the game plays. Maybe the new content will be so exciting that I just forget about where things fall short, but between the mass AFKs in higher level maps, the way mechanics work, and the horrid wardrobe system I don’t foresee myself returning all that often. I don’t even log in for my daily rewards currently, just check the forums to see what’s what, and there’s very little of worth coming out.

Corner stacking isn’t really a thing anymore after the fall of FGS and Anet has heard your plea from what we’ve seen with the trait changes/condition changes that will be taking place in the game. But the only true reason Zerk is meta is to get it done and over with as fast as possible to be able to do again. At one point gw2 did function around having variety especially in high level fractals where people brought cleric guards. But now that people have become more skilled it’s as simple as having minor utility but maximum damage.

^THIS
Please, meta isn’t really what’s bothering than the lack of new content.
There will always be a point in the game where content will get boringly easy in pve because you’re up against predictables arguments, and humans, with all their intelligence and curiosity, will always manage to find a way to beat the machine and do things in such an efficient way that what was challenging becomes mind numbind.

I remember the first time we all did AC and the mobs wiped the floor with us, poor souls that we were. And the first solo dungeon run? It was an amazing event.
But community shared info, and mobs became predictable, shortcuts have been found and strategy too.
You’re not forced to abide by meta if you don’t want too, and you can still find groups who’ll run it as they want, without stacking.
Fact remains that the best time/efficiency you’ll have is a zerker gear coupled with a stacking strategy and that’s what humans seeks to do: The most things in less time possible.

I think gw2 is currently locked on a mind numbing routine that I hoped will be corrected by HoT release, because most of the content that has been found has been “broken” into shared info and strategies have already been made to make it as efficient and as quickly as possible. Is this ok?
Depends.
I don’t mind because I don’t do PvE unless I need gold, and then the current meta is perfect for my mindset: as much gold as fast as possible.
Yet it is not ok, because the lack of content force these QQ threads and you’re not wrong in doing them.
You want change, and nothing is happening. This is wrong.

First off, the players created the Zerker meta, not A.net…a development doesn’t create a meta, players do by choosing to play only one style. Second, if you’re looking at the number of views for HoT reveal on YouTube, that’s misleading because it doesn’t take into account the number of people that have viewed it on the official site, either the HoT site itself or the main GW2…that 443k is only one segment of the viewing public(and really, 3.5 million copies…have you forgotten China, it was sold there too).

Perhaps you should have posted this under the dungeon forum?

If it wasn’t zerker meta, there would be something else for the “lvl 80 exp zerk only or kick” speed run crowd. It just so happens that conditions are meh in a group setting(something they are fixing) and there are enough active defenses built into characters that attacking more defense in the DPS check dungeons is unnecessary.

And the dungeons are just that: DPS checks. There is no account of balancing that wool change this. Why you think anet made fractals? I’ve done over a hundred of them and not one had anyone care about gear(beyond having sufficient AR) as I rolled with my ranger because they have actual mechanics to the fights.

And the other armor combinations get play outside of dungeons. Open world nobody cares what you play as long as it is viable (most everything is). Soldiers > zerker for world bosses like teq, and wvw you mix in other states for survivability as well.

Glitches are a thing, and they need to be fixed, but they setting both ways. If only I had a gold for every time I lost the hammer on cliffside fractal…And how is using reflect am exploit?

Lastly, everyone I know with the game intends to get expansion, yet none of them have seen any of the videos…So perhaps your assumption that interested parties well always watch every video on you tube (especially when the reveal was shown in game) is flawed?

And just a reminder: Dungeons are only a small part of the game. Fractals, open world events in orr and the other 80 zones, world bosses, wvw, and pvp also exist.

Why blame zerk meta and lack of trinity? Bad dungeon design is bad.

Zaklex.6308:

First off, the players created the Zerker meta, not A.net…a development doesn’t create a meta, players do by choosing to play only one style. Second, if you’re looking at the number of views for HoT reveal on YouTube, that’s misleading because it doesn’t take into account the number of people that have viewed it on the official site, either the HoT site itself or the main GW2…that 443k is only one segment of the viewing public(and really, 3.5 million copies…have you forgotten China, it was sold there too).

Yes, but it’s the developers’ responsibility to counter unintentional gameplay, with more balanced gameplay that isn’t borderline exploiting.

I ’ve had people mock me, call me names and hurt my feelings, all because I used my kick kitten legendary axe in a dungeon run, instead of the only socially acceptable way to play this game – full out zerker!

So if anet is paying attention, they might want to take into consideration that people may be leaving this game for one that they can “Play the way they want”

I still cry myself to sleep every night since that day, Do you have any idea how hard it was to get that kitten Axe? and I’m not allowed to use it…

Or people can I don’t know, find casual groups that don’t insist on the meta. Because I’ve run hundreds of dungeons and never once has anyone said I need to change weapons or I can’t use a weapon.

Maybe because I run with my guild. But on the few times I made ads on the LFG tool, I wrote casual run, all professions welcome. And no one ever complained about a profession or a build either.

Make your own group and try it yourself. There are as many people out there that don’t like the meta as those who like it. They just often do dungeons with their casual guilds.

Non-glass gear prefixes exist for several reasons. They’re useful in PvP, WvW and in PvE for those whose active skills don’t allow them to use glass gear. They’re even fine in dungeon groups if the participants don’t mind.

Some posters’ fixation on supposed “gear diversity” is nothing but bull-gravy or disguised, “I want designated roles.”. In a game environment where the goal is to win as efficiently as possible (kind of the definition of a meta), how much gear diversity is tolerated outside of those required roles? None.

As to exploits, glitching sure sounds like one. If there is such a glitch, it should be reported, not griped about. I’m sure, though that using reflection is not an exploit unless they’re something else going on.

So, you’re bored. I’m sure it’s your hatred of the meta that’s causing it, not the fact that there hasn’t been anything new in months, and that 90% of the dungeons have seen nothing new for nearly 3 years.

/s

Reanne.5462:

I ’ve had people mock me, call me names and hurt my feelings, all because I used my kick kitten legendary axe in a dungeon run, instead of the only socially acceptable way to play this game – full out zerker!

So if anet is paying attention, they might want to take into consideration that people may be leaving this game for one that they can “Play the way they want”

I still cry myself to sleep every night since that day, Do you have any idea how hard it was to get that kitten Axe? and I’m not allowed to use it…

ANet cannot “fix” that behavior. Why? Because it’s a people issue, not a game issue. ANet can make whatever changes they’d like and some people will still exclude. If not trolling, maybe you should take Vayne’s suggestion.

Some people like to be efficient. → They play meta builds.
Other people like showing off their gear, RP or want to watch tv while running dungeons. → these play a wide variety of builds

There is an anti ‘zerk’ meta post on the forums every day. Since only a minority posts on the forums we can assume there are enough people that don’t want to play the meta, while still wanting to run a dungeon, to form multiple 5 man parties. So maybe you should use the tools given to you in game or add the people that make these posts on the forums to your friends list and form a dungeon group with them. That way everybody will be happy.

Although it’s true that people can brute force the fights in lower level dungeons in berserker gear, this is harldy the case in arah and high lvl fotm. Playing in berserker gear in those dungeons is actually harder and does require some skill and knowledge about the game.

I have watched the nemesis video and it contains a bunch of misinformation.

Killing the current “meta” will just spawn a new one. Shall I point you to every non-single player game in the world? They all have a meta for a reason.

If anything fix exploits then work on making more build variation.

In a game where you can avoid taking damage with skill, it’s obvious that damage stats are the go to option.

“Gw2 abondonded the holy trinity to become…just dps?”

I disagree. Dodge is like a abosorb mechanic, just like tanks do. And we self heal, trough number 6, traits and abilities, like a healer would be doing.

I just want my conditions to be a viable damage option and purposely not be against bosses with over 9000 vitality and negative toughness. I am not anti zerk I am just a damage activist. Also add real condition damage and boon corruption mobs already we are limiting utilities!!!

Reanne.5462:

I ’ve had people mock me, call me names and hurt my feelings, all because I used my kick kitten legendary axe in a dungeon run, instead of the only socially acceptable way to play this game – full out zerker!

So if anet is paying attention, they might want to take into consideration that people may be leaving this game for one that they can “Play the way they want”

I still cry myself to sleep every night since that day, Do you have any idea how hard it was to get that kitten Axe? and I’m not allowed to use it…

I’d like to point out that axe is actually part of the meta build for every class that has access to it. Rangers use off hand axe, Wars use main hand, and Necros use main hand as part of the death shroud build. I think what you experienced is less to do with “the meta” and more to do with “people are kittens sometimes”.

As long as reducing your opponent’s health pool to zero is the only way to win a battle then whatever stat amplifies your ability to provide maximum damage will be the preferred meta-build.

My ele uses celestial just because. My necro uses the original melandru temple set I think – the one with condition reduction stats and the one piece that doesn’t have the same stats as the rest of the set…

Anyway, play how you want to play with who you want to play with and stop being so concerned about what others do. If you’re not ‘elite’ then stop complaining about those who are.

Proud member of the 99% who play how we want!

It’s a vicious cycle of reward typical of MMOs. Story and game-play will only keep you entertained for so long. They want to keep you playing so they put some really nice shiny stuff for you to get which a lot of times is ridiculously expensive, time consuming, and tedious to get. The player wants that stuff and wants it as fast as possible so they find the most efficient way of getting it. The game actually rewards you for cutting corners by allowing you to get all that nice stuff quicker. People stop playing for the fun and instead start playing like freaking robots doing the same stuff over and over again just to get the item they want. When numbers start dropping they add some new content hiding some new shinies and the cycle repeats itself.

The meta is becoming less and less necessary for me as I spend all my time in the open world. Just the other day I made a terrible short bow trap ranger build that was so far from being the best, but was having a blast playing it. Most of that is due to me being excited for the dragon hunter.

The berserker meta only exists for speedruns.

PVE, play how you want.

WVW, tanky is preferred.

i’d just say the World map needs more diversity where certain places in the world benifit different stat set ups and so on same goes with dungeons in HoT lets say if some creatures were prone to taking extra burning damage but Direct damage is reduced by 30% while the target is burned to encourage some Yo-yo tactics between phases like the HoT wyvern ect

generaly the content needs Altering and that in turn will make the Beserker stat a less majority for all of PvE.

and for those that don’t get what im saying heres a example.

old player: Get some Zerker gear PvE is easy (does not explain much)
new player: (gets zerker gear goes into a area where Direct damage is less effective vs 75% of mobs and strongly not effective vs champions which need to be weakened by using Keggs like the Jungle wurm)
New player then get owned for not Balancing his Survival changes because active defence only works if you know the encounters and only if the Attacks match your active defences cooldowns.

Random attacks that are near unpredictable or attacks that are triggered by a player using a certain type of attack (bit like the end boss of ather blade lvl 80 or the cursed shore Abbomination he gets hit by a certain attack builds a stack and randomly counter attacks) by said skill triggering X.

its all nice and well that active denfeces are amazing at negating damage but that leaves nearly no reason to build up atleast some Survival , though i really hope HoT will bring more of these old/removed or special current machanics back to cast a stone that will lessen the grip of “The King Zerker PvE stats” though in some areas of the game zerker will still be the best for that area .

though the stats will still beable to finish events in different areas it might just take the zerker a little longer and a bit more tenacious going about the event/boss by slotting a little more Survival so instead of 100% glass its 80-90% glass giving them a reason to swap a few things out.

just how in gw 1 some missions or areas of the map required you to tweek stats or Points to deal with the area at hand.

I will answer this mixing up my thoughts and some funny stuff I’ve read in the forums.

Animosity.5968:

So I’ve played since launch and lately I cant even log in because the game is so boring to me. I PvE, mostly dungeon or fotm and this zerker meta is literally killing the game. Just recently a old gw2 member named Nemesis uploaded a video on this subject and he hit alot of points that I’ve noticed and even more than I didn’t notice. (GJ nemesis!)

So this meta is all about DPS, Corner stacking, Glitching and exploiting.. Some evidence…

-The meta is DPS because its all Zerker gear (out of the 23 stat prefix’s, guess anet just wanted to make different stat gear for giggles)

First of all, meta is made by players, and it’s the most efficient way to clean up content, so if they “fix” the current meta, the new one will come, and we’ll have about the same amount of ppl complaining about the new meta.

Now let’s assume they change the meta by improving the mob’s AI like they said at some point when the expansion was announced, then the meta goes from zerker stacking to condi kiting around.

Animosity.5968:

-Corner stacking doesn’t need evidence, everyone has done it but it’s common in MMO’s and isn’t a problem unless it’s mixed with the other 3 parts of the meta.

-Glitching is a serious problem but people do it and it’s literally accepted as part of the meta. A few examples are CM attacking people through walls, CM climbing wall by Frost in P1 to take 0 damage, CM P2 running the boss between 2 plateau’s to become completely stuck, etc. I only mentioned CM but there’s glitching in every dungeon, just youtube “gw2 Glitch (whatever dungeon)” and you’ll be met with video proof.

- Exploiting is just stupid and yet people still do it to Lupi with reflecting his attacks to down him in seconds. Obviously this isn’t challenging content for a boss in a dungeon yet now it’s accepted as ok? wtf man. There are more but I draw a fine line between glitching and exploiting so i’ll let you choose. "

Here is the thing the majority of ppl that runs the meta zerker stack/glitching/exploting every possible thing, don’t run the dungeons for fun, but for the gold prize at the end. So they see all these things as good things, and as those things get fixed they stop running those paths, like happened to HotW P2 after the wall skip was fixed.

Animosity.5968:

So as nemesis states in his video “Gw2 abondonded the holy trinity to become…just dps?” It’s literally gotten to a point where people are stating that certain classes are sub par and should not be taken for optimal dps. How is this better? I for one think it’s literally ludicious and now with HoT coming I’m sending the Dev’s a message…" You have the opportunity to fix what has been left to grow into such a big problem. The ball’s in your court, Please stay true to your word to make this MMO the be all end all MMO"

They can’t design content to force ppl to have a healer or tank build required, because that would be wow clone, and god, zerker meta can have a lot of downsides, but Thank God, it’s not wow clone.

What does everyone else think about gw2 current state? Is all this ok?

Honestly I think the “business model” the game was built upon is flawed, and the expansion will fix very little of it, it’s kinda sad when you look at the game and see what it could/supposed to be and what it is. And Anet got lucky when aside of FFXIV (that’s already bigger than GW2, even with the monthly fee) all other MMOs released were a complete failure, and the good ones can only be played with 350+ ping on eastern servers. I think GW2 played its part tho, bringing some new ideas that every new MMO seem to be copying and improving, but if the upcoming MMOs are somewhat decent, GW2 will soon be where Tera, Aion and others successful MMOs were before GW2 was released, are now.

LordHarwyck.7013:

Corner stacking isn’t really a thing anymore after the fall of FGS and Anet has heard your plea from what we’ve seen with the trait changes/condition changes that will be taking place in the game. But the only true reason Zerk is meta is to get it done and over with as fast as possible to be able to do again. At one point gw2 did function around having variety especially in high level fractals where people brought cleric guards. But now that people have become more skilled it’s as simple as having minor utility but maximum damage.

this.

zerk will always be meta unless mobs AI is designed to make full zerk impossible (extreme defense against non-condition damage + very high AI attack rates)

I generally agree w/ most of what the OP has said.

Exploiting in dungeons, I wouldn’t consider ‘killing the game’ though (I guess if you equate fast gold = messing up the economy)

The rampant exploiting (aka cheating) in WvW…although hilarious at times, now THAT’S killing off a fair amount of player interest in that part of the game. It usually goes unnoticed, but if you’re cool with the cheaters on your server they usually let you follow them around and you would know exploiting can go on for hours

There’s cheating in PvP of course too, but personally I haven’t encountered that as much as in WvW

as long as the mobs in GW2 are not as intelligent as in GW1 (they heal their allies), zerker meta will always be on top….

azizul.8469:

as long as the mobs in GW2 are not as intelligent as in GW1 (they heal their allies), zerker meta will always be on top….

And even if they bring the AI up (let’s be perfectly blunt, GW1 AI wasn’t exactly brilliant either), it’ll just change the meta to something else.

If the “meta” is killing GW2, then it kills every MMO on the market, because the “meta” is something that will ALWAYS exist.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

just how in gw 1 some missions or areas of the map required you to tweek stats or Points to deal with the area at hand.

I did Raven’s Point HM in a Searing Flames build, with Heroes that had skills based around that burning.

GW1, at no point ever, requires that you tweek your stats or Points. Skill, just like here, is the end factor. The addition of more options doesn’t change anything.

Khalisto.5780:

They can’t design content to force ppl to have a healer or tank build required, because that would be wow clone, and god, zerker meta can have a lot of downsides, but Thank God, it’s not wow clone.

More importantly, it would break their tenant of not making certain classes required for any content. And despite much moaning, every class is perfectly viable for any piece of content that’s currently out.

Khalisto.5780:

They can’t design content to force ppl to have a healer or tank build required, because that would be wow clone, and god, zerker meta can have a lot of downsides, but Thank God, it’s not wow clone.

WoW did not invent Tank and Spank and Anet would never had made the money it did to justify NCsoft funding GW2 without defined class/party roles in GW1…

Just leave the game.

ANet doesn’t care about dungeons. Not one bit.

petyr baelish.9675:

Some people like to be efficient. -> They play meta builds.
Other people like showing off their gear, RP or want to watch tv while running dungeons. -> these play a wide variety of builds

There is an anti ‘zerk’ meta post on the forums every day. Since only a minority posts on the forums we can assume there are enough people that don’t want to play the meta, while still wanting to run a dungeon, to form multiple 5 man parties. So maybe you should use the tools given to you in game or add the people that make these posts on the forums to your friends list and form a dungeon group with them. That way everybody will be happy.

Although it’s true that people can brute force the fights in lower level dungeons in berserker gear, this is harldy the case in arah and high lvl fotm. Playing in berserker gear in those dungeons is actually harder and does require some skill and knowledge about the game.

I have watched the nemesis video and it contains a bunch of misinformation.

I dont know why people put nemesis in high regards, I am not for the meta but when I see his videos so much misinformation and a lot of self congratulating. I get it Necros are viable in dungeons and exploits/glitches are bad. But Zerker gear is top for a reason. It requires skill to use. Dont believe me go run zerkers in FOTM 50, because My whole team does and we seem to do fine. We don’t use exploits as a personal goal. our times are not speed clears but are still fast.

Everyday nerf zerkers, remove zerkers, ban zerkers. We know why these are posted because people dont read the LFG when entering a party. They get kicked and want to vent somewhere. Just make your own team and post on the lfg want you want. Also dont use other MMOS as examples because they all have exploits that people use to clear things in a efficient manner. It all comes down to time=loot. Now go out there and enjoy the freaking game. Or play a completely different game.

meta isnt killing hte game what it does is create a skill floor

if your not skilled enough to avoid all incoming damage and maximize your own and your uptime and trying to crutch yourself with subpar damage gear in exchange for eating more failed avoidance thats your perogative

i can agree exploits are not good tho.

HoT seems like it’s going to feature highly mobile combat, forcing movement, as seen even now with the newer enemies. You’ll still be able to stack however, you’ll just have to be far more coordinated. Zerker will always be the best choice for skilled players, but everyone else wearing it will likely find themselves dying a lot. I wouldn’t be surprised if people complain about the difficulty of new areas, believing groups are required, in the same way some people couldn’t manage the living story episodes.

Complaining about zerker/etc because of old content is pointless. I doubt HoT will feature dungeons however since ArenaNet turned away from them. Instead, there’ll probably be open world challenges designed for groups (ArenaNet seems like they’re trying to be very inclusive), which bad players will of course believe is zerg content and scaling doesn’t exist.

Animosity.5968:

“Gw2 abondonded the holy trinity to become…just dps?”

The goal was to be able to do and bring whatever you wanted. Bring the player, not the character.

Animosity.5968:

It’s literally gotten to a point where people are stating that certain classes are sub par and should not be taken for optimal dps. How is this better?

If you’re min/maxing, something is always going to be better than something else unless everything is exactly the same. Every MMO is like this if you’re truly trying to optimize, like a world 1st progression guild.

chemiclord.3978:

azizul.8469:

as long as the mobs in GW2 are not as intelligent as in GW1 (they heal their allies), zerker meta will always be on top….

And even if they bring the AI up (let’s be perfectly blunt, GW1 AI wasn’t exactly brilliant either), it’ll just change the meta to something else.

If the “meta” is killing GW2, then it kills every MMO on the market, because the “meta” is something that will ALWAYS exist.

I hear this a lot, but this is really deflecting from the issue.

The problem isn’t the existence of a meta. The problem is that all berserkers are the meta. To be more elaborate, the problem is that the game is designed in such a way that the best way to deal with pretty much every and any encounter is to maximize
damage to the point that gear limits, and simply pound the enemy into oblivion. While the antiquated tank/heal/DPS system still had a meta, the difference was that all playstyles still felt necessary and validated.

Every piece of pve content that will ever be made in any game will always have exactly 1 provably best way to play it. You can change its shape but in the end it’s all the same.

Glitches are a part of the game. Just because they weren’t intended to exist doesn’t make them not exist. Calling something an exploit is just saying you don’t like how people play the game. It’s not up to players to decide what should and shouldn’t be possible; it’s up to Anet to decide to ‘ascend’ the glitch or remove it.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

chemiclord.3978:

azizul.8469:

as long as the mobs in GW2 are not as intelligent as in GW1 (they heal their allies), zerker meta will always be on top….

And even if they bring the AI up (let’s be perfectly blunt, GW1 AI wasn’t exactly brilliant either), it’ll just change the meta to something else.

If the “meta” is killing GW2, then it kills every MMO on the market, because the “meta” is something that will ALWAYS exist.

I hear this a lot, but this is really deflecting from the issue.

The problem isn’t the existence of a meta. The problem is that all berserkers are the meta. To be more elaborate, the problem is that the game is designed in such a way that the best way to deal with pretty much every and any encounter is to maximize
damage to the point that gear limits, and simply pound the enemy into oblivion. While the antiquated tank/heal/DPS system still had a meta, the difference was that all playstyles still felt necessary and validated.

No, they didn’t. If they did, that’s just because you were specifically never payed heed to the people who wanted to do something that you perceived as not an issue. Take GW1 for instance. In HM, Elementalist was a healer. No, you couldn’t use your fire line. No, you couldn’t use your water line. Air? HA! Oh, you want to do one of the many builds that Elementalists could do involving damage? Prepare your butt for being kicked out of your party, if not your guild as well.

Each role was perfectly fine, if you ignore the fact that anything that wasn’t straight dps, healing/protection, or tanking was absolutely not allowed, but you pretty much had to ignore most of the hundreds of skills available to you if you wanted to be a part of the meta. However, the problem still existed there. What did people do there?

They just played the game.

They got friends, and they played the game. They didn’t roam the forums, complaining about how their build wasn’t meta. They just went out and played it. Just like how you can easily run a team with a tank or two, getting healed by a healer (the fact that the tanks being “paladin style” and also being major healers being only a comment towards efficiency), and some random people for dps, people ran with sub-optimal choices that weren’t the meta calls for that class.

This game has a problem, yes, but it’s not with the game itself. It’s with people who abjectly refuse to allow for the game to exist as it is. That there must be healers, tanks, and dpsers, or the game is obviously a failure. That their specific build, no matter what it is, is what must be allowed as the major meta call. No, “being allowed to be played” is nonsense. I have played with PUGs that have run full Nomads, and no one even commented about it in party chat (though, I did comment about it to my guildie who I was duo’ing with about it). No one kicked him, no one even gave the slightest care about the fact that he was doing something that wasn’t the part of the meta. While that’s not always the case, as PUGs are filled with spiteful little kids, that’s still a pale comparison to the fact that I’ve had this girl in my guild who wanted to be a healer. We did basically every non-Arah/non-HotW dungeon with her.

So, if you want to take anything out of this, take this: don’t expect validation to be given to everyone. Just because you get it eventually doesn’t mean that someone else isn’t being shunned. And if you want to play whatever you want in this game, do it. The game is designed in such a way that the most optimal path isn’t a requirement, and you can easily find people perfectly willing to go do whatever you want to go with. If you’re desperate for validation, go get it. Don’t just complain on the forums about it. Go get it.

Don’t feed the troll.

Garth Thurgen.1380:

No, they didn’t. If they did, that’s just because you were specifically never payed heed to the people who wanted to do something that you perceived as not an issue. Take GW1 for instance. In HM, Elementalist was a healer. No, you couldn’t use your fire line. No, you couldn’t use your water line. Air? HA! Oh, you want to do one of the many builds that Elementalists could do involving damage? Prepare your butt for being kicked out of your party, if not your guild as well.

Each role was perfectly fine, if you ignore the fact that anything that wasn’t straight dps, healing/protection, or tanking was absolutely not allowed, but you pretty much had to ignore most of the hundreds of skills available to you if you wanted to be a part of the meta. However, the problem still existed there. What did people do there?

They just played the game.

They got friends, and they played the game. They didn’t roam the forums, complaining about how their build wasn’t meta. They just went out and played it. Just like how you can easily run a team with a tank or two, getting healed by a healer (the fact that the tanks being “paladin style” and also being major healers being only a comment towards efficiency), and some random people for dps, people ran with sub-optimal choices that weren’t the meta calls for that class.

This game has a problem, yes, but it’s not with the game itself. It’s with people who abjectly refuse to allow for the game to exist as it is. That there must be healers, tanks, and dpsers, or the game is obviously a failure. That their specific build, no matter what it is, is what must be allowed as the major meta call. No, “being allowed to be played” is nonsense. I have played with PUGs that have run full Nomads, and no one even commented about it in party chat (though, I did comment about it to my guildie who I was duo’ing with about it). No one kicked him, no one even gave the slightest care about the fact that he was doing something that wasn’t the part of the meta. While that’s not always the case, as PUGs are filled with spiteful little kids, that’s still a pale comparison to the fact that I’ve had this girl in my guild who wanted to be a healer. We did basically every non-Arah/non-HotW dungeon with her.

So, if you want to take anything out of this, take this: don’t expect validation to be given to everyone. Just because you get it eventually doesn’t mean that someone else isn’t being shunned. And if you want to play whatever you want in this game, do it. The game is designed in such a way that the most optimal path isn’t a requirement, and you can easily find people perfectly willing to go do whatever you want to go with. If you’re desperate for validation, go get it. Don’t just complain on the forums about it. Go get it.

So you’re saying that because specific classes were designated as having specific roles, that people who wanted to play those specific roles didn’t feel validated? Because that is the issue here. Not intra-class diversity.

Your point doesn’t make sense. Because people were complacent with problems in a previous game, they shouldn’t improve the quality of this game? A large number of people having a problem with the game doesn’t mean there’s a problem with the game? It’s like saying that if you got a poorly cooked and spiced steak from a restaurant, that it was your fault for not having the taste buds to appreciate the steak.

There is no industry in the world where “shut up and stop criticizing” is a legitimate train of thought. Should this game change to encourage greater role diversity, berserker gear won’t go away, even if groups get relegated to a rigid “Soldiers, Clerics, Zerker x3” system that most games implement. The hope of people who want greater balance is just that: balance. Not supremacy. Because with balance comes diversity.

Animosity.5968:

OP

First, two things:

- i regularly run fractals, and speed clear dungeons. We never glitch anything. Just once in fractals and for laughs (the mai trim glitch)
- using reflects on a boss is not an exploit. If you think it is, then so dodging, healingm cand even attacking would be exploits. Dont troll if you are serious about your post.

Then, regarding the rest of your post, you seem to fail to understand what the meta is. Its just what the community thinks is better. You will always have a meta.

As for professions not being accepted because they are not part of the meta, it’s not actually like that. The professions that are not welcome in parties, namely necromancer, are rejected not for not being the best, but for being terrible. You would also have that in wow if the priest received a nerf and couldnt heal, or the warrior couldnt take damage, or the warlock couldnt dish out decent damage. But wow is always sort of balanced, while necromancers are trash.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

So you’re saying that because specific classes were designated as having specific roles, that people who wanted to play those specific roles didn’t feel validated? Because that is the issue here. Not intra-class diversity.

Nope. I’m saying that classes got completely thrown out because of their irrelevance. The meta for Ele was to be a Monk. You only ran Elementalist for Energy Storage, and then ran a bunch of Monk skills. The role existed for dps, but no one wanted it. That’s the definition of not being validated, and has only minor touchings in intra-class diversity (much like how it does here).

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Your point doesn’t make sense. Because people were complacent with problems in a previous game, they shouldn’t improve the quality of this game? A large number of people having a problem with the game doesn’t mean there’s a problem with the game? It’s like saying that if you got a poorly cooked and spiced steak from a restaurant, that it was your fault for not having the taste buds to appreciate the steak.

It’s simple: it wasn’t ever perceived as a problem. And it’s still not a problem, but it’s now being perceived as one. People just understood that if they wanted to do something goofy, they wouldn’t do it with random people. Here, people explicitly want their style of play to be the one true law, and are willing to destroy any other person’s fun that doesn’t want it in the process. The roles exist, and they can be run just fine. The only step they can go is to become the meta, which in this game basically means it’s the only thing that can be run (it’s sort of the existential fallacy that exists with the whole “issue” in the first place).

Similarly, the existence of an amount of people complaining only stops being argumentum ad populum when there’s a problem. There still is yet to be a problem shown that doesn’t devolve into “I don’t like this, make this something I like!” No, being validated isn’t required from them if you don’t want to be validated. Unless they’re actively preventing you from doing something to get that validation, it’s entirely on your head. If you don’t like it, the game isn’t for you. Something that seems to be something that this complaint seems to feel as an impossibility.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Should this game change to encourage greater role diversity, berserker gear won’t go away, even if groups get relegated to a rigid “Soldiers, Clerics, Zerker x3” system that most games implement. The hope of people who want greater balance is just that: balance. Not supremacy. Because with balance comes diversity.

Totally irrelevant. Diversity doesn’t exclusively come from balance, but from amalgamation as well. Even with perfect balance, if there are actual differences then there will always be a meta call, and thus there will always be this exact same “problem.” It’s only when everything is the exact same when you can achieve a meta-less state. Similarly, you are changing a “this is what you must do” into a “this is what you must do.” If there’s a problem with ~3-5x Berserker, ~0-2x Assassin (depending on if you have an Engie/Mesmer with you) because it doesn’t let you choose what you’re doing and be in the meta, then there’s most definitely one wrong where you still don’t get a single choice about it and still be in the meta. No, saying “but Berserker will still be in the meta!” means nothing. People saying this isn’t a problem aren’t saying it because they want to run Berserker, but because your entire concept is based on a selfish desire and holds no logical ground.

I really support OP in his opinion. I’m really getting tired of people constantly asking me to provide PS & banners as a warrior, might as an ele or reflects as a guardian.

The “Zerk Link Gear” and “meta” are completely cancerous to GW2 and I think ANet should work in a direction to close the equipment gap between Berserker stats and the rest of the available choices.

As every other player I want to enjoy the content of the game without constantly being pushed in a given direction by a bunch of self-confident kittens who believe they know a lot about the game, proper builds, “meta” and runs and whatnot and think they’re better than all of us because they “speedclear”. As an ele, I want to play a healer and I will play it this way, I don’t care if your LFG was “Zerk”, you don’t have the power to tell me how to play the game.

I’m also sick of “stack here, put reflects” and all that crap. Because all those “zerkers” can’t survive for 10 seconds straight without stacking and putting up reflects that make all bosses suicide pretty much. Real players who have a good tanking and healing capability know how to deal with any situation without exploiting the game via stacking, reflecting or blinding the enemy.

winterchillz.2564:

I really support OP in his opinion. I’m really getting tired of people constantly asking me to provide PS & banners as a warrior, might as an ele or reflects as a guardian.

The “Zerk Link Gear” and “meta” are completely cancerous to GW2 and I think ANet should work in a direction to close the equipment gap between Berserker stats and the rest of the available choices.

As every other player I want to enjoy the content of the game without constantly being pushed in a given direction by a bunch of self-confident kittens who believe they know a lot about the game, proper builds, “meta” and runs and whatnot and think they’re better than all of us because they “speedclear”. As an ele, I want to play a healer and I will play it this way, I don’t care if your LFG was “Zerk”, you don’t have the power to tell me how to play the game.

I’m also sick of “stack here, put reflects” and all that crap. Because all those “zerkers” can’t survive for 10 seconds straight without stacking and putting up reflects that make all bosses suicide pretty much. Real players who have a good tanking and healing capability know how to deal with any situation without exploiting the game via stacking, reflecting or blinding the enemy.

Is this some kind of satire?

Blinding and reflecting are exploits? Players with good tanking and healing capability can deal with any situation?

I… I don’t know what to say.

These threads get worse every time, which is an impressive feat when you think about it.

Shifu.4321:

winterchillz.2564:

I really support OP in his opinion.

I… I don’t know what to say.

there is no problem with any “meta”. If the rules change, another type of gear will be the optimal one. Good and thinking players will adapt those items then. People whining about Zerker – for whatever reason I cannot fathom – will then complain about having to use gear type x. Nothing at all will change.

The gameplay suffers from other things, some of which you brought up:

- stacking, which boils down to the way short term buffs and effects work in GW2
- no real action combat: GW2 gives the illusion of being a “twitch” game, and that is to some extent even true (dodging), but in the end, there are so many “abstract” mechanics in the game that completely kill the approach. No targetting, protective abilities that carried over from traditional systems (you don´t actively block as in, say, Dark Souls, you have abilities that give you invulnerability frames or lower incoming damage). This a rather callow mixture, the game excels neither in “twitchy” combat nor in the traditional mmorpg style.
- playerbase: it is a trend in the industry, but GW2 is really the epitomy of a “dumbed down, casual” game. It was actively marketed to a casual crowd to whom other MMORPG are apparently unappealing. Hence, they cannot introduce any meaningful combat or content, failure is not an option for their target audience. Risk is existent only in some niche content. But without risk, there can be no exciting combat.

Aenesthesia.1697:

Animosity.5968:

OP

First, two things:

- i regularly run fractals, and speed clear dungeons. We never glitch anything. Just once in fractals and for laughs (the mai trim glitch)
- using reflects on a boss is not an exploit. If you think it is, then so dodging, healingm cand even attacking would be exploits. Dont troll if you are serious about your post.

Op is saying (if I got it right) that for instance glitching Lupi in the wall so you can place a reflect on the wall behind him instantly destroying 50%+ of his health is exploiting.

I have a feeling many people got so used to glithy/cheesy dungeon runs, that they consider that normal now.

Bubi.7942:

Aenesthesia.1697:

Animosity.5968:

OP

First, two things:

- i regularly run fractals, and speed clear dungeons. We never glitch anything. Just once in fractals and for laughs (the mai trim glitch)
- using reflects on a boss is not an exploit. If you think it is, then so dodging, healingm cand even attacking would be exploits. Dont troll if you are serious about your post.

Op is saying (if I got it right) that for instance glitching Lupi in the wall so you can place a reflect on the wall behind him instantly destroying 50%+ of his health is exploiting.

I have a feeling many people got so used to glithy/cheesy dungeon runs, that they consider that normal now.

And yet there are even more of us “normal” players who do not abuse such glitches. I’m fully ascended on both my main character and main twink and I can count down the times I have been exposed to such a glitch on one hand.

Garth Thurgen.1380:

Nope. I’m saying that classes got completely thrown out because of their irrelevance. The meta for Ele was to be a Monk. You only ran Elementalist for Energy Storage, and then ran a bunch of Monk skills. The role existed for dps, but no one wanted it. That’s the definition of not being validated, and has only minor touchings in intra-class diversity (much like how it does here).

Ah, so people were validated in their roles, and the class issue is unrelated to the zerker issue today.

It’s simple: it wasn’t ever perceived as a problem And it’s still not a problem, but it’s now being perceived as one. People just understood that if they wanted to do something goofy, they wouldn’t do it with random people. .

If it was never perceived as a problem, then you wouldn’t have brought it up as a problem in the design of GW1. What you are describing is, in essence, that the players of GW1 gave up on having a fulfilling class system and had to dance around in the community in order to have fun. Maybe GW1 followed the same path that GW2 is headed down, where everyone who had the dreams of a balanced class system up and left the game for different ventures. This hardly sounds like an ideal system at all. Hell, this doesn’t even sound like a good system.

Garth Thurgen.1380:

Here, people explicitly want their style of play to be the one true law, and are willing to destroy any other person’s fun that doesn’t want it in the process. The roles exist, and they can be run just fine. The only step they can go is to become the meta, which in this game basically means it’s the only thing that can be run (it’s sort of the existential fallacy that exists with the whole “issue” in the first place).

I have been out of the forums for awhile, so I may have to defer to your judgement on this, but has the beserker debate really declined so far that people aren’t arguing for diversity anymore? Because I can’t see how the idea of the game enforcing diversity in builds is somehow going to destroy someone’s fun, unless that other person’s fun is based solely on monopolizing gameplay and being intolerant of others. It all sounds selfish and hypocritical to me.

Though I have to disagree: The other roles are not fine. The problem with berserkers isn’t what the community wants. The problem with berserkers is that it is objectively better than every other gear set in nearly the entirety of the PVE game. It makes more money, does things faster, does things better, and with little tradeoff of “skill” needed to perform effectively, and there are no limitations placed upon one who uses berserker gear..

Garth Thurgen.1380:

Similarly, the existence of an amount of people complaining only stops being argumentum ad populum when there’s a problem. There still is yet to be a problem shown that doesn’t devolve into “I don’t like this, make this something I like!”

Actually, the mere fact that everyone has a problem is itself a problem. GW2 is ultimately a business venture who’s purpose is to make money. The people who complain about the state of gear balance are dissatisfied customers who, if ignored, will take their money elsewhere. Likewise, there is not a single problem that can’t be stereotyped into “I don’t like this, make this something I like”. That is the nature of “problem”: someone has to be unhappy with something to bring it to your attention in the first place.

Garth Thurgen.1380:

Totally irrelevant. Diversity doesn’t exclusively come from balance, but from amalgamation as well. Even with perfect balance, if there are actual differences then there will always be a meta call, and thus there will always be this exact same “problem.”

The problem isn’t the existence of a meta. The problem is that the meta is all berserker gear. We can have a new, equally constricting meta that more people will be happy with because it allows them to express their desires to play certain roles. In a new meta with multiple enforced roles, it will be easier to balance classes, too, since now there is a balancing factor aside from the almighty DPS that will come in to play. The chief complaint people have about the berserker meta is the berserker part. Not the meta part.

Cyninja.2954:

Bubi.7942:

Aenesthesia.1697:

Animosity.5968:

OP

First, two things:

- i regularly run fractals, and speed clear dungeons. We never glitch anything. Just once in fractals and for laughs (the mai trim glitch)
- using reflects on a boss is not an exploit. If you think it is, then so dodging, healingm cand even attacking would be exploits. Dont troll if you are serious about your post.

Op is saying (if I got it right) that for instance glitching Lupi in the wall so you can place a reflect on the wall behind him instantly destroying 50%+ of his health is exploiting.

I have a feeling many people got so used to glithy/cheesy dungeon runs, that they consider that normal now.

And yet there are even more of us “normal” players who do not abuse such glitches. I’m fully ascended on both my main character and main twink and I can count down the times I have been exposed to such a glitch on one hand.

Like I said, it depends on one’s definition of a glitch/exploit.

For me squeezing 5 people in the corner at the end of AC3 (or 1?) so the NPC also stacks on you, thus you avoid the any damage that can be done by done falling ceiling falls under the category of exploiting. You could argue that it is just “smart play”, for me, it’s pretty clear it’s not intentional.

And it’s great that You or Your team/guild don’t use them, and that in your personal experience, rarely encountered them. I have different experiences however. I have redone Arah recently (like 4 months ago) with PuGs, because I have totally forgot about them (I did them 2 years before that). Done all 4 paths once. All 4 times, someone glitched Lupi in above described manner. One time we even skipped half of the dungeon by jumping out of map somewhere.

Unlucky? Maybe, but I have my doubts.

I watched this video and this is full of bitterness. He’s sad to not play the top rated profession of the game… at some point he should deal with it.
Now the part of glitch and exploit is a bit ridiculous. He’s talking about bugs that have disappeared or even make some game mechanics sound as bugs just because he doesn’t like them. For example he suggests that playing with opened inventory to swap weapons between fights is more or less a cheat… I personally don’t change traits and builds within a dungeon because I don’t want to go in that “super optimized” direction but if people do it and succeed I wouldn’t see myself blame them for MY laziness !!!!

The consequences of meta are ridiculous… toxic environment really????!!! Then I don’t understand why so many people on reddit keep on making posts about how the community is so great in that game…..

Now OP there are two possibilities for you. Either you have never played meta builds in meta comp (I’m not blaming you, I never did either) and I don’t think you can judge this gameplay as easy or you did it and succeed and in that case I would say " congrats you are a good player".

It has been said many many many times :
-AC/TA/SE are not representative of the game difficulty
-Zerker is a gear, the build coming with the meta has a lot of ACTIVE defence. If you are able to go through a fight only by dodging, preventing damage and healing efficiently then why take passive damage reduction instead of damage? If you are not sure of your skills then you take more HP or toughness to compensate for the mistakes you can do.

Bubi.7942:

For me squeezing 5 people in the corner at the end of AC3 (or 1?) so the NPC also stacks on you, thus you avoid the any damage that can be done by done falling ceiling falls under the category of exploiting. You could argue that it is just “smart play”, for me, it’s pretty clear it’s not intentional.

The NPC creates a bubble to make you resist the cave in ability, of course it is intended for players to go in the bubble. Now you can run everywhere and pack during animation in the bubble or everyone stay around the NPC so that you are sure to be in range of the bubble…. are suggesting that the NPC has been given an ability to help players unintentionally?