Guild Wars 2

There really ought to be be a minimum amount by which you have to up the ante for a buy order on the TP. I haven’t been to many real-life auctions, but I’ve never seen a bidding war tediously go back and forth by one penny at a time.

If you really want an item badly enough to outdo the top bidder, you should have to commit a little more to it than 1 copper, literally the smallest unit of currency in the game.

It could be, like…a silver or .02% of the top bid, whichever is greater. That way on big items that are hundreds of gold, it would force you to bid in gold, without being completely insubstantial on smaller items. Since .02% of something that sells for like 12 silver is basically 2 copper anyway.

99% Of the time I only read the forums… But logged in now just to support this idea!

+1

ElforTheLandStander.7052:

There really ought to be be a minimum amount by which you have to up the ante for a buy order on the TP. I haven’t been to many real-life auctions, but I’ve never seen a bidding war tediously go back and forth by one penny at a time.

If you think that is tedious you are free to up it by whatever amount you feel like. The game isn’t going to stop you so why aren’t you doing that?

Khisanth.2948:

If you think that is tedious you are free to up it by whatever amount you feel like. The game isn’t going to stop you so why aren’t you doing that?

I kind of agree with this. It’s a pain to have to sit on bids but if you really want the item and you know you’re willing to pay more for it just bid your personal max.

ElforTheLandStander.7052:

If you really want an item badly enough to outdo the top bidder, you should have to commit a little more to it than 1 copper, literally the smallest unit of currency in the game.

If you really want an item badly enough that you mind being outbid by only 1 copper, you should offer more. In particular, you cannot be “outbid” if you are willing to pay the lowest asking price. Heck, you are very unlikely to be outbid if you offer 20% less than that.

The only time people get outbid is if they are (like myself) looking for a better deal. I accept if I’m being ‘greedy’, then I risk someone else coming in with a better offer. I won’t claim to love being outbid by a copper, nor will I claim that I have any more right to my bid, because I was 5 minutes quicker than the player who wants the item for the same price (and so posts +1c over my offer).

tl;dr Pay the asking price, unless you are willing to be outbid.

Both sides have a point, the flaw with “bid your personal max” is 99.99% don’t. Chances are his personal max is just going to get buried by 10 other bids that increase by 1 copper per bid. I would support an ebay-like system where you can place a max bid where people bidding lower would automatically get outbid by you until your max bid was surpassed. I like the OP’s suggestion as well.

Also for most items there traded so fast that unless the order was for a crazy amount it’s going to get filled and you’ll be right back at the top again. Don’t but bids in for items you want right now. Place bids for stuff you’ll want tomorrow so your not just sitting at the trader refreshing the screen.

This is no different than babysitting bids for things you really want on eBay.

This is easy. Move the listing fee to the buyer in the case of the buy orders. That way if someone offers a buy it had best be a good one else they will have to pay a price to re-list the same that sellers do.

ElforTheLandStander.7052:

It could be, like…a silver or .02% of the top bid, whichever is greater.

That would be crazy: Anything worth less than several silvers wouldn’t be worth the effort to bid. This would be catastrophic for most high volume, low value goods. A significant amount of those goods are already in the hands of traders, thus the most likely outcome would be that the prices would skyrocket, rather than plummet.

That way on big items that are hundreds of gold, it would force you to bid in gold, without being completely insubstantial on smaller items. Since .02% of something that sells for like 12 silver is basically 2 copper anyway.

But you just said the opposite. If your minimum bid was the greater from 1 silver or 0.02% of the current highest bid, it would default to 1 silver on anything worth less than 50 Gold. And let’s not even kid ourselves: That’s literally a huge majority of all the items currently on the TP.

BIGHARSHNESS.3510:

I would support an ebay-like system where you can place a max bid where people bidding lower would automatically get outbid by you until your max bid was surpassed. I like the OP’s suggestion as well.

Then it becomes an auction, not a trading post. If they added a selling option to conclude the sale at a certain time you would still have to babysit every item you are bidding on during the last few minutes of the sale because thats when the real selling price will be determined.

I enjoyed these systems in Rift and Diablo 3 (before they removed it) but i can’t say it would be an improvement.

Forcing a minimum increment to the bids would just make it easier to manipulate the market.

This was explained years ago in the old black lion trading forums here.

Don’t babysit your bids? If you want it now, then buy it outright. If you don’t want it now put in a bid for it and go away for a day or two then check to see if it got buried. If it did get buried it’s because you offered less than many other people are willing to pay.

eithinan.9841:

Forcing a minimum increment to the bids would just make it easier to manipulate the market.

This was explained years ago in the old black lion trading forums here.

Here is a link to one of the old threads:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/bltc/Suggest-fixing-the-1-copper-raise-problem/first

ElforTheLandStander.7052:

There really ought to be be a minimum amount by which you have to up the ante for a buy order on the TP. I haven’t been to many real-life auctions, but I’ve never seen a bidding war tediously go back and forth by one penny at a time.

If you really want an item badly enough to outdo the top bidder, you should have to commit a little more to it than 1 copper, literally the smallest unit of currency in the game.

It could be, like…a silver or .02% of the top bid, whichever is greater. That way on big items that are hundreds of gold, it would force you to bid in gold, without being completely insubstantial on smaller items. Since .02% of something that sells for like 12 silver is basically 2 copper anyway.

Your suggestion wouldnt change the status quo. People who want to up your bid, would still outbid you and it wouldnt change your place in queue.
All it would do is make prices in general more volatile, which is undesired in a balanced economy.

Having at least 1s increments would be futile to low value items, which have a price spread of less than 1 silver.

TheGrimm.5624:

This is easy. Move the listing fee to the buyer in the case of the buy orders. That way if someone offers a buy it had best be a good one else they will have to pay a price to re-list the same that sellers do.

This is easily the worst suggestion i read in this thread.
Moving the listing fee to the bidder would mean that the trading post could be utilized as free storage, just list all your stuff for 10000g each, so it doesnt get bought, delist if you want it back.

I think the problem is that some people are treating the trading post like it’s an auction – thinking that you have to maintain the highest bid until the sale goes through or you won’t get your item.

That’s not how it works. You’re not placing competing bids for a single item, you’re offering to buy one or more of those items (usually one of tens, hundreds or thousands in circulation). If someone places a higher bid it doesn’t mean they’ve beaten you and you’ve lost out, it just means they’ve jumped to the front of the queue and you have to wait a bit longer.

If you can’t wait and would rather pay more to get the very next one sold then you can do that by increasing your bid – to match the lowest sell order. That way you get your item instantly.

I almost never watch items after placing a bid, and when I do it’s because I’m expecting it to sell very quickly and don’t think it’s worth doing anything else (like when I’m buying silk for crafting). Other than that I place my bid and then pretty much forget about it. Quite often it’s at the end of the day when I’m about to log off anyway, but if I do stay online I just carry on playing.

Sometimes I happen to notice I’ve been outbid, but even then I don’t rush to change my bid, I just wait for those ones to clear and to move back to the top of the list. If it’s been more than a few days I might reassess the situation. 15 days is my arbitrary cut-off point but I can only remember a couple of times I didn’t get my item/s before then. Even when I was buying a precursor (a very competitive item with relatively low availability compared to what I normally buy), I placed my bid, happened to notice I was outbid before going to bed but didn’t change it and came back from work the next day to find I’d got it.

+1. I support totally, and I really think that should have a 5% minimum to outbid (Ither for sell or for buy) a order.

Danikat.8537:

I think the problem is that some people are treating the trading post like it’s an auction – thinking that you have to maintain the highest bid until the sale goes through or you won’t get your item.

That’s not how it works. You’re not placing competing bids for a single item, you’re offering to buy one or more of those items (usually one of tens, hundreds or thousands in circulation). If someone places a higher bid it doesn’t mean they’ve beaten you and you’ve lost out, it just means they’ve jumped to the front of the queue and you have to wait a bit longer.

Yes, this is the core of the issue here, people not understanding that it’s not an auction house it’s a trading post. They’re supposed to behave differently.

There is no problem to be fixed here: if I’m willing to pay 1s19c and you’re willing to pay 1s20c that’s not a problem. It doesn’t prevent me getting my order filled it just means your order will be filled first because you’re willing to pay more. That’s how it should work.

The TP is not an AH nor should it be treated like one.

It is a trading post, and the person willing to trade the most gold gets the item.

Wanze.8410:

eithinan.9841:

Forcing a minimum increment to the bids would just make it easier to manipulate the market.

This was explained years ago in the old black lion trading forums here.

Here is a link to one of the old threads:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/bltc/Suggest-fixing-the-1-copper-raise-problem/first

Thanks Wanze, this is why you have 100’s of thousands of gold and i only have 10’s, laziness :P

For anyone offering suggestions to this please please read that thead and see if your idea has been offered already and the reasons why it wont work. Bring an educated opinion to the discussion.

Wanze.8410:

TheGrimm.5624:

This is easy. Move the listing fee to the buyer in the case of the buy orders. That way if someone offers a buy it had best be a good one else they will have to pay a price to re-list the same that sellers do.

This is easily the worst suggestion i read in this thread.
Moving the listing fee to the bidder would mean that the trading post could be utilized as free storage, just list all your stuff for 10000g each, so it doesnt get bought, delist if you want it back.

I am not suggesting removing it if items are placed for sale. If you put something out for sale then the listing fee is on the seller. I am saying in the case of buy orders it’s moved to the buyer. The discouragement to have it act as a storage locker remains.

The point is that there is no penalty to the buyer putting a bid out there that undervalues the item. There is a penalty to a seller valuing something wrong if they list and then re-list. Even in this method a buyer underbidding would still be better off then a seller over-valuing the item but at least its a discouragement. If someone wants to keep 1 upping a bid then that fine but there is a price for each time that transaction occurs.

TheGrimm.5624:

Wanze.8410:

TheGrimm.5624:

This is easy. Move the listing fee to the buyer in the case of the buy orders. That way if someone offers a buy it had best be a good one else they will have to pay a price to re-list the same that sellers do.

This is easily the worst suggestion i read in this thread.
Moving the listing fee to the bidder would mean that the trading post could be utilized as free storage, just list all your stuff for 10000g each, so it doesnt get bought, delist if you want it back.

I am not suggesting removing it if items are placed for sale. If you put something out for sale then the listing fee is on the seller. I am saying in the case of buy orders it’s moved to the buyer. The discouragement to have it act as a storage locker remains.

The point is that there is no penalty to the buyer putting a bid out there that undervalues the item. There is a penalty to a seller valuing something wrong if they list and then re-list. Even in this method a buyer underbidding would still be better off then a seller over-valuing the item but at least its a discouragement. If someone wants to keep 1 upping a bid then that fine but there is a price for each time that transaction occurs.

A low bid doesnt undervalue the item in general, it only states the personal evaluation of the bidder.
And those bids aound 10-20% lower than the highest bid have an important role to balance the balance when supply and demand change for periods of time. Most items usually swing in value in that range on a weekly circle without any new content or information added just because of population, production and consumption changes between weekdays and weekends.

Putting bidding fees on every placed bid (assuming 5% of the total value) would put casual players at a great disadvantage towards traders like me. Most of the time, they want to buy stuff on the tp because they are consumers and want to use whatever they are buying as fast as possible. They either buy directly, which is instant but comes at a premium or place bids. That will take a bit longer but most of the time will grant them a great rebate. Most of the time, they will be able to pick their orders up, at least partially, during the same playing session or at least the next day. They also have the opportunity to increase their chances, by constantly updating their highest bid but with your suggestion, they would think twice to place bids because they would lose gold every time the cancel one bid and add another. Of course, they could just place their bid and leave it until its filled, usually under a week but if an item is in high demand (or short supply) for whatever reasons and its price is constantly rising, it could take months to fill. Most casuals and consumers would simply stop placing bets and buy directly, which leaves the bidding market nearly exclusively to traders.

Because i dont care if my order fills today or in a week because i dont want to immediately use it. Whenever its filled, i relist it 50% higher and can be most certain that it usually sell within a week. I dont care as much as average joe, who usually scraps around with less than 100g, to tie up 50, 100, 500 or 1000g in buy orders for a week or two because i constantly have new gold coming in.

If you would paint the whole scenario in black and white, it would basically show poor casual players selling their earned loot directly to rich traders for cheap gold, when they dont have demand for it, and buy it back from them when they need it for a premium.

But anyways, I dont even agree that the status quo is a problem and needs fixing.
The ability to renew your order without a penalty is a great way for every player to strike a bargain in his purchases and shouldnt be limited to rich people and traders as it would greatly increase the wealth gap.

Wanze.8410:

But anyways, I dont even agree that the status quo is a problem and needs fixing.
The ability to renew your order without a penalty is a great way for every player to strike a bargain in his purchases and shouldnt be limited to rich people and traders as it would greatly increase the wealth gap.

This is one of the reasons I like you so much wanze. Not only do you use the tp as a tool for amassing wealth you also are looking out for the casual consumer. Every time you point out why ideas that change the status quo are bad you also show how they all affect the player who is just a consumer.

I do wish they had kept the BLTC forums and made u a “forum specialist”.

So someone can monopolize the bid values where you just happen to squeeze out a profit, and anyone wanting to jump in has to bid a value that will be at a loss?

It isn’t a live auction, it’s a trading post. Think of yourself as a business that is trying to buy and sell commodities. Often times it comes down to pennies, heck even fractions of a cent depending on the volume.

One statistic I would love to see is how many players list buy orders or sell orders versus those that sell to the highest buy order or buy what they need immediately. Without that I am not certain that the causal player deals with buy orders or place sell orders that much, therefore its the traders that are driving the value of items that players farm down in value.

We do live in the microwave age where people don’t even have time for 24-hour banking. I base this opinion off of fellow players. I know others that will spend 40+ hours in game but don’t work with the TP outside of buying directly what they need or selling to the highest bidder. IMO if people spending that much time in game follow that route, odds are high a more casual player will act similar.

Could be wrong, but likewise agree sometimes its better to deal with the devil you know. Good hunting!

Hmm… Just thought of a good way to raise guild funds… Penny auctions!

TheGrimm.5624:

One statistic I would love to see is how many players list buy orders or sell orders versus those that sell to the highest buy order or buy what they need immediately. Without that I am not certain that the causal player deals with buy orders or place sell orders that much, therefore its the traders that are driving the value of items that players farm down in value.

We do live in the microwave age where people don’t even have time for 24-hour banking. I base this opinion off of fellow players. I know others that will spend 40+ hours in game but don’t work with the TP outside of buying directly what they need or selling to the highest bidder. IMO if people spending that much time in game follow that route, odds are high a more casual player will act similar.

Could be wrong, but likewise agree sometimes its better to deal with the devil you know. Good hunting!

I think you’d be surprised. I consider myself a casual player, especially when it comes to the TP. The vast majority of the time I don’t know or care what affects the price of items or how much it’s likely to vary in a day, week, month etc. As you and Wanze have said I’m simply buying things I want to use, because I want to use them (and selling things I have and don’t want to use).

But the Trading Post interface can function a bit like an ‘idiots guide’ to the market. It doesn’t tell you everything of course but it gives you a lot of useful information very clearly. You can see how many of a given item are currently being sold vs. how many buy orders there are, the range of prices for both buy and sell orders and the difference between the two. That’s enough to make a basic decision on whether it’s better to place a buy order or buy directly.

For example earlier today I set out to buy a full set of celestial light armor recipes. I’ve never bought these before, or paid any attention to the market for them, I’m only buying them because I got my ele to level 80 and decided I wanted celestial armor.

By looking at the TP I was able to tell that there was a significant difference between the lowest sell price and the highest buy price, and that there are enough of them in circulation that I don’t have to worry about the supply disappearing (and can be reasonably sure they’re not all tied up in sell orders).

I knew I couldn’t expect buy orders to fill right away, and that there was a good chance I’d be outbid and have to wait for 2 or more to sell before I get mine. But I also knew my main focus for this character currently is the personal story, which hardly requires a full set of matching exotics, so I can afford to wait and, for me, the money I’ll save will be worth it.

(On the other side I also decided to list a lot of the equipment I made while levelling tailor instead of selling it right away, again because I didn’t need the sale to be instant and the difference in price was big enough to make it worthwhile.)

Can someone explain, what is the problem we are trying to solve here?

It’s not an auction house, it’s a commodities market. Even precursors aren’t unique heirloom collectibles.

A few buy orders more generous than yours aren’t going to keep you from getting the thing you want forever. Many will, but if that’s the case it’s because you’re offering too little for the current market price.

Danikat.8537:

TheGrimm.5624:

One statistic I would love to see is how many players list buy orders or sell orders versus those that sell to the highest buy order or buy what they need immediately. Without that I am not certain that the causal player deals with buy orders or place sell orders that much, therefore its the traders that are driving the value of items that players farm down in value.

We do live in the microwave age where people don’t even have time for 24-hour banking. I base this opinion off of fellow players. I know others that will spend 40+ hours in game but don’t work with the TP outside of buying directly what they need or selling to the highest bidder. IMO if people spending that much time in game follow that route, odds are high a more casual player will act similar.

Could be wrong, but likewise agree sometimes its better to deal with the devil you know. Good hunting!

I think you’d be surprised. I consider myself a casual player, especially when it comes to the TP. The vast majority of the time I don’t know or care what affects the price of items or how much it’s likely to vary in a day, week, month etc. As you and Wanze have said I’m simply buying things I want to use, because I want to use them (and selling things I have and don’t want to use).

But the Trading Post interface can function a bit like an ‘idiots guide’ to the market. It doesn’t tell you everything of course but it gives you a lot of useful information very clearly. You can see how many of a given item are currently being sold vs. how many buy orders there are, the range of prices for both buy and sell orders and the difference between the two. That’s enough to make a basic decision on whether it’s better to place a buy order or buy directly.

For example earlier today I set out to buy a full set of celestial light armor recipes. I’ve never bought these before, or paid any attention to the market for them, I’m only buying them because I got my ele to level 80 and decided I wanted celestial armor.

By looking at the TP I was able to tell that there was a significant difference between the lowest sell price and the highest buy price, and that there are enough of them in circulation that I don’t have to worry about the supply disappearing (and can be reasonably sure they’re not all tied up in sell orders).

I knew I couldn’t expect buy orders to fill right away, and that there was a good chance I’d be outbid and have to wait for 2 or more to sell before I get mine. But I also knew my main focus for this character currently is the personal story, which hardly requires a full set of matching exotics, so I can afford to wait and, for me, the money I’ll save will be worth it.

(On the other side I also decided to list a lot of the equipment I made while levelling tailor instead of selling it right away, again because I didn’t need the sale to be instant and the difference in price was big enough to make it worthwhile.)

You are probably a good example of the average player, when it comes to tp interaction and I dont mean that in a disrespective way. Sometimes people try to safe a buck or two but most of the time, they make impulsive decisions when it comes to trading.

I just checked celestial light recipes and added some prices:
in order to purchase one of each light recipes you currently pay 113s on buy order, if you buy directly, you pay 191s, thats 80s saved, congrats to that.

If you would have done some additional research, you would have found out that since the 2nd festival of the 4 winds last year, they introduced recipes to craft a full satchel of celestial exalted armor, which goes for 7/17s.

It takes exactly the same amount of mats to craft the satchel and the 6 individual armor pieces combined, the only disadvantage is that you have to wait until you gathered all the mats before crafting the whole satchel, if you craft pieces individually, you can already use some, while you wait until you have enough charged quartz for the other pieces.
But that would have been another 1 gold saved in recipe costs.

+1

….copper that is. :P

Seriously, if it bothers you that much, just buy the item at list price. Otherwise, suck it up.

Sandpit.3467:

Can someone explain, what is the problem we are trying to solve here?

Players have too much freedom to bid the way they want to.

Horrible, horrible freedom.

Yeah it sort of makes me roll my eyes whenever I see that. At least names aren’t attached to bids otherwise I’d know who the cheapskates are in the game. :P

Personally I feel if you’re going to outbid someone, why do it by 1 copper when it’s very likely someone else is going to just outbid you by a copper. And so forth and so on everyone adding a penny and a nickle; driving up prices for everyone in the process.

For small items; whatever. But I really get laughing when big ticket items start to be increased by copper. You are already bidding 450 gold (plus 1 copper more than me!), why not just at least up your bid 50 silver over mine if not a gold or several gold?

Usually when I go back to check on high bids it’s when I’m ready to drop another 20+ gold down, so it makes me laugh when I see someone’s outbid me by copper. Like okay, whatever buddy. :P

I’ve seen this issue brought up a few times in the past. I completely agree that there needs to be limits up bidding players in the trade house. Up bidding by a certain % seems like a reasonable way of doing it.

However i also think that something also needs to be done to the other side with people down selling someone by 1 copper. It’s just as big of a problem with the trade house imo. Maybe use the same idea and have players down sell by a certain % of the person above them as well.

Implementing this to both sides of the trade house would be reasonable since you’d be sacrificing a fair amount of money in exchange for faster sell/buy.

Edited for trolls

There is a minimum, it’s 1 copper, live with it. And wow, it’s been a while since this topic got beaten into the ground.

States.6387:

I’ve seen this issue brought up a few times in the past. I completely agree that there needs to be limits up bidding players in the auction house. Up bidding by a certain % seems like a reasonable way of doing it.

However i also think that something also needs to be done to the other side with people down selling someone by 1 copper. It’s just as big of a problem with the auction house imo. Maybe use the same idea and have players down sell by a certain % of the person above them as well.

Implementing this to both sides of the auction house would be reasonable since you’d be sacrificing a fair amount of money in exchange for faster sell/buy.

That’s the thing, it’s not an auction house.

It’s a trading post.

There is no bidding. You don’t have to replace your buy order when someone sells an item do you? If it was an auction house, you would have to replace your order.

Don’t want to be outbid? Offer a price that your competitors aren’t willing to outbid.

Frustrating to be outbid.. yeah of course, but what is more frustrating is seeing sellers use their second, third, fourth accounts or friends/guildies to create upbids in order to get their item moving up the value bar.. and yes ebay has the same manipulated bidding system.

So I say leave it be and if players don’t have the patience to wait for an item to sell or a bid to be accepted.. don’t play the TP game.

For people that want minimum increments implemented, can you explain to me, why you think this would chance anything about the fact that you will get outbid?

It seems to me that you want a way to be able to place a bid and not get outbid without having to update your buy orders.

If you think someone who outbid you a copper on a 100g item before wont outbid you 10s or 1g now, i think you will be disappointed.

You already have the chance to minimize the risk of being outbid by bidding 110g instead of 100g, so i dont see, how this system would give your bid addional security that isnt already available via personal choice now.

All it would to is increase the pace of price spikes and dumps or in demand and oversupplied items.

Wanze.8410:

For people that want minimum increments implemented, can you explain to me, why you think this would chance anything about the fact that you will get outbid?

It seems to me that you want a way to be able to place a bid and not get outbid without having to update your buy orders.

If you think someone who outbid you a copper on a 100g item before wont outbid you 10s or 1g now, i think you will be disappointed.

You already have the chance to minimize the risk of being outbid by bidding 110g instead of 100g, so i dont see, how this system would give your bid addional security that isnt already available via personal choice now.

All it would to is increase the pace of price spikes and dumps or in demand and oversupplied items.

I dont have a problem with people wanting to outbid or undersell players on the trade house. The issue i have is that there is no balance to it. A player can jump on the trade house and instantly step in front of 5k people for the price of 1 copper. I’d rather there be limits to to how much you can undersell or outbid someone so its a fair trade off to all the players who are now having to wait behind the person choosing to jump in front of them. And this issue is not just on the bidding side of the trade house. It occurs just as much (if not more) on the selling side of the trade house which is even more of an issue imo. You cant just list all your items for dirt cheap to ensure they get bought. It would defeat the whole purpose of grinding those items to make a fair profit off them.

When I was bidding on Reyna’s armor pieces I got the feeling that there are probably many bots playing the TP instead of people. That is why I find upbidding by 1c so annoying sometimes.

I would almost always upbid by something like 5-20s on a piece of armor. But if that bid is not high enough, there will be always people (or bots?) with their bid orders higher by 1c. There won’t be 1 bid or 2 that are higher than mine, there will be around 6-8 buy orders that are all just 1c higher than the previous one (when I come back to check the prices in the evening or next day). Every single time, unless I reach a certain price where it is not worth for them to overbid me (when I make the potential profits too small). The annoying part is reaching that point, because it seems like those people are babysitting their buy orders all day, every day.

It is just so consistent that it is really suspicious…and of course annoying because I don’t want to check my buy orders every 30 minutes until I figure out where the maximum buy order price of the other people is. It would just go much faster if they couldn’t outbid me just by 1c.

On the other hand, I don’t feel like this is a big problem for cheap items that are high in demand and high in supply. If you really need those items, all you need to do is to increase the buy price a little bit more than just 1c any you are probably good.

States.6387:

Wanze.8410:

For people that want minimum increments implemented, can you explain to me, why you think this would chance anything about the fact that you will get outbid?

It seems to me that you want a way to be able to place a bid and not get outbid without having to update your buy orders.

If you think someone who outbid you a copper on a 100g item before wont outbid you 10s or 1g now, i think you will be disappointed.

You already have the chance to minimize the risk of being outbid by bidding 110g instead of 100g, so i dont see, how this system would give your bid addional security that isnt already available via personal choice now.

All it would to is increase the pace of price spikes and dumps or in demand and oversupplied items.

I dont have a problem with people wanting to outbid or undersell players on the trade house. The issue i have is that there is no balance to it. A player can jump on the trade house and instantly step in front of 5k people for the price of 1 copper. I’d rather there be limits to to how much you can undersell or outbid someone so its a fair trade off to all the players who are now having to wait behind the person choosing to jump in front of them. And this issue is not just on the bidding side of the trade house. It occurs just as much (if not more) on the selling side of the trade house which is even more of an issue imo. You cant just list all your items for dirt cheap to ensure they get bought. It would defeat the whole purpose of grinding those items to make a fair profit off them.

And I disagree because the trading post is one of the most balanced areas of the game, as everyone is subject to the same rules yet has a free choice when it comes to his personal evaluation of an item.
Its up to the individual seller and buyer to make the right choice in order for his item to sell or his bid to fill in the desired time frame.

Nevermind that any system that requires you to outbid/undercut by a certain amount (be it a % or minimum amount of gold) can be easily circumnavigated.

If a minimum bid for an item is 100g and by new rules i would have to place a bid of at least 101g if I want to raise it, i do just that, then place another bid at 100g and 1 copper, then cancel my bid of 101g.

In fact seems people are mistaking a trading post with an auction house. You are not bidding a product, you are placing an order. Those are completely different from one another.

To simply explain, even tho many have tried to so far, you are simply using a post (house) as a intermediary to buy or sell items. When you place an order, you are alerting the sellers that you are interested in buying that specific item for a certain price. If the price is right, they will sell it to you. The order will stay there as long as the buyer allows if no interest is picked by the sellers. You might want to revalue if your price is too low or if the demand for the item is higher than before, raising the current exchange price on it.

I am a casual TP user and 1 copper uppercut don’t render my buying order useless. It is those that raise 10 silvers, 1 gold, 10 gold that does it, making me take a moment to check the market, the supply and demand and the price fluctuation over the week or so and decide if need to increase the amount of gold I am willing to pay for such item in agreement with the market .

Does it take a bit longer to get the items I tagged when other buyer makes an offer with 1 copper or 1 silver higher? Some times, yes, but usually am able to buy the items nonetheless. I never waited more than a couple of days, however I give myself a time limit of 2 weeks for a buy order and 2 months to sell. The only times I had to cancel my order was when the item price spiked over 10 silver or more and due to supply and demand and other players acknowledging the recipe, it didn’t went down for several weeks or even months.

McJAC.4739:

When I was bidding on Reyna’s armor pieces I got the feeling that there are probably many bots playing the TP instead of people. That is why I find upbidding by 1c so annoying sometimes.

I would almost always upbid by something like 5-20s on a piece of armor. But if that bid is not high enough, there will be always people (or bots?) with their bid orders higher by 1c. There won’t be 1 bid or 2 that are higher than mine, there will be around 6-8 buy orders that are all just 1c higher than the previous one (when I come back to check the prices in the evening or next day). Every single time, unless I reach a certain price where it is not worth for them to overbid me (when I make the potential profits too small). The annoying part is reaching that point, because it seems like those people are babysitting their buy orders all day, every day.

It is just so consistent that it is really suspicious…and of course annoying because I don’t want to check my buy orders every 30 minutes until I figure out where the maximum buy order price of the other people is. It would just go much faster if they couldn’t outbid me just by 1c.

On the other hand, I don’t feel like this is a big problem for cheap items that are high in demand and high in supply. If you really need those items, all you need to do is to increase the buy price a little bit more than just 1c any you are probably good.

Its a global economy, most of the time, you are just being outbid by other players that babysit their orders while you go out and play.
Rheynas armor is profitable when salvaged, as you not only get ectos and dark matter but also the chance to salvage a shamans insignia and melandru runes, worth both 2g each.
That means you not only have competition form other players that want to equip it (because its cheaper than buying a craft4ed shamans exotic set and 6 runes) but also professional salvagers that want to make a profit of 1 or 2g for a black lion salvage kit charge.

I wont deny that there are bots operating on the tp but in my experience there are far less now than last year.
Most of the time, they operate on medium and low velocity items that are usually sold as single items, rather than in bulk (for example exotics).
If i happen to find a bot bidding on the same item as me, outbidding me by 1 copper within under a minute after i place my bid, i usually start using higher price increments, until i find the maximum value the bot is programmed to bid.
If an item has a highest bid of 1g and sells for 1.5g, i might put in a bid at 1g1c.
If i place against a bot, i place higher bids and might find out that the maximum bid the bot is allowed place is 1.3g.
I place 1 order at 1.2999g, so the bot has to pay the max amount of gold he is allowed to do and i also place another 10 bids at 1g 1c, so once the bot gets cancelled and my 1 high bid gets filled, i get the item close to 1g again.
I also report the bot in the “Bot Hot Spot” sticky, so devs can take care of it.
Usually the next day, the bot is gone, either banned or went on to a different item.

But as already mentioned, most of the times, you actually get outbid by other players who spend more time updating their bids than you.
WIth the new trading API released, there are plenty of apps and websites that warn you in real time, if you get outbid or undercut, so people dont have to stop playing other content in orderto double check their bids, they just have to open the tp, when they are actually being outbid.

Wanze.8410:

States.6387:

Wanze.8410:

For people that want minimum increments implemented, can you explain to me, why you think this would chance anything about the fact that you will get outbid?

It seems to me that you want a way to be able to place a bid and not get outbid without having to update your buy orders.

If you think someone who outbid you a copper on a 100g item before wont outbid you 10s or 1g now, i think you will be disappointed.

You already have the chance to minimize the risk of being outbid by bidding 110g instead of 100g, so i dont see, how this system would give your bid addional security that isnt already available via personal choice now.

All it would to is increase the pace of price spikes and dumps or in demand and oversupplied items.

I dont have a problem with people wanting to outbid or undersell players on the trade house. The issue i have is that there is no balance to it. A player can jump on the trade house and instantly step in front of 5k people for the price of 1 copper. I’d rather there be limits to to how much you can undersell or outbid someone so its a fair trade off to all the players who are now having to wait behind the person choosing to jump in front of them. And this issue is not just on the bidding side of the trade house. It occurs just as much (if not more) on the selling side of the trade house which is even more of an issue imo. You cant just list all your items for dirt cheap to ensure they get bought. It would defeat the whole purpose of grinding those items to make a fair profit off them.

And I disagree because the trading post is one of the most balanced areas of the game, as everyone is subject to the same rules yet has a free choice when it comes to his personal evaluation of an item.
Its up to the individual seller and buyer to make the right choice in order for his item to sell or his bid to fill in the desired time frame.

Nevermind that any system that requires you to outbid/undercut by a certain amount (be it a % or minimum amount of gold) can be easily circumnavigated.

If a minimum bid for an item is 100g and by new rules i would have to place a bid of at least 101g if I want to raise it, i do just that, then place another bid at 100g and 1 copper, then cancel my bid of 101g.

You can not make “the right bid” in this games current trade house. Literally every time something is put on the trade house be it bids for buying or selling it is almost always immediately outbid or undercut by someone else for 1 copper. And this continues endlessly. That means that no matter what number you make up to sell or bid on an item, it will never “be the right bid”. The only items that are not affected by this issue are the ones in high demand (which is pretty much only crafting materials). That is a problem. The trading system in this game is not anywhere near balanced.

Heres an example of what currently goes on with it:

Item A is listed on the trade house for 10 gold.
I put item A on the trade house for 9 gold. (1 gold less should be good right?)
Immediately after, someone puts item A on the trade house for 8.9 gold
Immediately after that someone puts item A on the trade house for 8.8 gold
Immediately after that someone puts item A on the trade house for 8.7 gold
This continues endlessly or until an item is being sold for the same price as people are placing buy orders. The next day or sometimes even in the next few hours item A can now be as low kitten and my original listing can be behind thousands of other orders forcing me to pull my item off and start over.

This is part of the reason why prices on items fluctuate so often and so dramatically and that is not good for the trading system.

Edit: the “kitten” was five gold with the number and letter g. Not sure why that is bleeped out lol

If they are going to just change only one thing about the tp it should be not letting bids below the minimum selling cost of the item (and removing the ones already there).

States.6387:

Wanze.8410:

States.6387:

Wanze.8410:

For people that want minimum increments implemented, can you explain to me, why you think this would chance anything about the fact that you will get outbid?

It seems to me that you want a way to be able to place a bid and not get outbid without having to update your buy orders.

If you think someone who outbid you a copper on a 100g item before wont outbid you 10s or 1g now, i think you will be disappointed.

You already have the chance to minimize the risk of being outbid by bidding 110g instead of 100g, so i dont see, how this system would give your bid addional security that isnt already available via personal choice now.

All it would to is increase the pace of price spikes and dumps or in demand and oversupplied items.

I dont have a problem with people wanting to outbid or undersell players on the trade house. The issue i have is that there is no balance to it. A player can jump on the trade house and instantly step in front of 5k people for the price of 1 copper. I’d rather there be limits to to how much you can undersell or outbid someone so its a fair trade off to all the players who are now having to wait behind the person choosing to jump in front of them. And this issue is not just on the bidding side of the trade house. It occurs just as much (if not more) on the selling side of the trade house which is even more of an issue imo. You cant just list all your items for dirt cheap to ensure they get bought. It would defeat the whole purpose of grinding those items to make a fair profit off them.

And I disagree because the trading post is one of the most balanced areas of the game, as everyone is subject to the same rules yet has a free choice when it comes to his personal evaluation of an item.
Its up to the individual seller and buyer to make the right choice in order for his item to sell or his bid to fill in the desired time frame.

Nevermind that any system that requires you to outbid/undercut by a certain amount (be it a % or minimum amount of gold) can be easily circumnavigated.

If a minimum bid for an item is 100g and by new rules i would have to place a bid of at least 101g if I want to raise it, i do just that, then place another bid at 100g and 1 copper, then cancel my bid of 101g.

You can not make “the right bid” in this games current trade house. Literally every time something is put on the trade house be it bids for buying or selling it is almost always immediately outbid or undercut by someone else for 1 copper. And this continues endlessly. That means that no matter what number you make up to sell or bid on an item, it will never “be the right bid”. The only items that are not affected by this issue are the ones in high demand (which is pretty much only crafting materials). That is a problem. The trading system in this game is not anywhere near balanced.

Heres an example of what currently goes on with it:

Item A is listed on the trade house for 10 gold.
I put item A on the trade house for 9 gold. (1 gold less should be good right?)
Immediately after, someone puts item A on the trade house for 8.9 gold
Immediately after that someone puts item A on the trade house for 8.8 gold
Immediately after that someone puts item A on the trade house for 8.7 gold
This continues endlessly or until an item is being sold for the same price as people are placing buy orders. The next day or sometimes even in the next few hours item A can now be as low kitten and my original listing can be behind thousands of other orders forcing me to pull my item off and start over.

This is part of the reason why prices on items fluctuate so often and so dramatically and that is not good for the trading system.

Edit: the “kitten” was five gold with the number and letter g. Not sure why that is bleeped out lol

Just wait for a week until you relist and your item is more likely to sell.
You a greatly exaggerating to prove a point without giving any specific example of an item or any other evidence that this is a widespread occurence.

Menadena.7482:

If they are going to just change only one thing about the tp it should be not letting bids below the minimum selling cost of the item (and removing the ones already there).

You already can only place bids at a minimum of vendor value +15%.
The bids below that threshold are old ones. They cant be filled and do no harm to the economy. If Anet was to cancel all those bids, it would only eat up work hours and have no benefit whatsoever. The gold of those bids would most probably go towards long inactive or banned accounts anyways.

Wanze.8410:

Just wait for a week until you relist and your item is more likely to sell.
You a greatly exaggerating to prove a point without giving any specific example of an item or any other evidence that this is a widespread occurence.

If you think i am exaggerating then i’m going to assume you hardly use the trade house. The example i provided is not even close to being exaggerated.

Go take a look at the trade house in game. Only one look thats all you will need. And then look at all the buyers or sellers in front of the last person on any item. You will see that there are 10’s of thousands of buy orders in front of them and they are almost all in front of him because they dropped their price by 1 copper.

You suggest to wait a week and then relist it?
Ok….
This solves absolutely nothing because people are just going to under sell or out bid you by 1 copper again and push you to the back of the line once more.
You can wait a month or a year, the same thing is going to continue to happen because the trade system allows it and people abuse it.