Guild Wars 2

Having read some discussions on the upcoming 10% nerfing of berserker’s gear, I’ve come up with a following idea:

• keep the overall damage close to the way it is now (ferocity may be introduced regardless);
• introduce negative survivability stats to purely offensive gear.

So, for example a Zojja’s Coat would have stats similar to:

• +106 Power
• +76 Precision
• +5% critical damage
• - 38 vitality
• - 38 toughness

This is a rough sketch of an idea and it doesn’t have a finished solution to other gear sets. However:

• This concept ideally describes the spirit of being a berserker: trading survivability for pure damage.
• It also addresses the main issue of the game which resulted in the dominance of zerker in PvE – the fact that it is fairly easy to survive even without investing in vitality/toughness at all.
• It will leave the full damage potential available to everyone who is still willing to risk a lot.

This is a dumb idea. Zerkers will be even more glasscannon and not worth playing at all.
It’s not the stats that is the problem, it’s the AI and how the monsters move and use their skills.
Doing something like that with stats would make it unplayable. Zerker is not so good in PvP unless you are very skilled. Why? because players can think unlike monsters in PvE.

Zoid.2568:

This is a dumb idea. Zerkers will be even more glasscannon and not worth playing at all.

…said a glasscannon zerker warrior with largest health pool in heaviest armor

Zoid.2568:

It’s not the stats that is the problem, it’s the AI and how the monsters move and use their skills.

With AI as a constant and DPS-wise, lowing the health of berserker’s gear to force people into a variety of safer gear means is identical to nerfing critical damage.

Zoid.2568:

Doing something like that with stats would make it unplayable. Zerker is not so good in PvP unless you are very skilled.

But, you know, that’s EXACTLY the point of zerker’s gear! If you don’t feel safe with it, switch to a safer gear. Berserker’s should be a marginal case for pro players, and not a universal choice for anyone.

Or..you know..buff other stats..make them worthwhile..

Lishtenbird.2814:

…said a glasscannon zerker warrior with largest health pool in heaviest armor

You seem to forget that Zerker gear isn’t exclusive to just Warriors, in fact, some classes have to take Zerker gear just to be efficient or on par with Warriors, lowering them makes em even squishier than others. Warriors would be the least hurt by that change.

One downside to the OP’s idea is that it will not only affect Berserker gear. Once you introduce “negative stats,” you’ll have to put them on all gear sets, not just the set under discussion. Those other sets, that many believe already under-perform, will get worse.

Yes, because a glass cannon guard already has soooooo much health.

Talonblaze.3175:

Lishtenbird.2814:

…said a glasscannon zerker warrior with largest health pool in heaviest armor

You seem to forget that Zerker gear isn’t exclusive to just Warriors, in fact, some classes have to take Zerker gear just to be efficient or on par with Warriors, lowering them makes em even squishier than others. Warriors would be the least hurt by that change.

This is true, my mesmer, ele and ranger all would be slammed real hard by this.
Updating the other stats will not do much either, the content needs to be designed to deal damage differently.
The horrid mob AI was better in the betas, they “can” do it from a theoretical standpoint, the issue was that the server were not (and I assume still are not) able to handle the extra traffic

No thanks. Would be fairly amusing having about 8hp on my zerk guard though.

Inimicus.7162:

Talonblaze.3175:

Lishtenbird.2814:

…said a glasscannon zerker warrior with largest health pool in heaviest armor

You seem to forget that Zerker gear isn’t exclusive to just Warriors, in fact, some classes have to take Zerker gear just to be efficient or on par with Warriors, lowering them makes em even squishier than others. Warriors would be the least hurt by that change.

This is true, my mesmer, ele and ranger all would be slammed real hard by this.
Updating the other stats will not do much either, the content needs to be designed to deal damage differently.
The horrid mob AI was better in the betas, they “can” do it from a theoretical standpoint, the issue was that the server were not (and I assume still are not) able to handle the extra traffic

Actually the AI is the same from the Beta. The issue here from the beta is that your just have gotten better. The AI hasn’t changed but your skill at the game has changed.

Suddenflame.2601:

Inimicus.7162:

Talonblaze.3175:

Lishtenbird.2814:

…said a glasscannon zerker warrior with largest health pool in heaviest armor

You seem to forget that Zerker gear isn’t exclusive to just Warriors, in fact, some classes have to take Zerker gear just to be efficient or on par with Warriors, lowering them makes em even squishier than others. Warriors would be the least hurt by that change.

This is true, my mesmer, ele and ranger all would be slammed real hard by this.
Updating the other stats will not do much either, the content needs to be designed to deal damage differently.
The horrid mob AI was better in the betas, they “can” do it from a theoretical standpoint, the issue was that the server were not (and I assume still are not) able to handle the extra traffic

Actually the AI is the same from the Beta. The issue here from the beta is that your just have gotten better. The AI hasn’t changed but your skill at the game has changed.

He is talking about earlier betas, where AI design included AoE avoidance

Shirogatsu.3150:

Suddenflame.2601:

Inimicus.7162:

Talonblaze.3175:

Lishtenbird.2814:

…said a glasscannon zerker warrior with largest health pool in heaviest armor

You seem to forget that Zerker gear isn’t exclusive to just Warriors, in fact, some classes have to take Zerker gear just to be efficient or on par with Warriors, lowering them makes em even squishier than others. Warriors would be the least hurt by that change.

This is true, my mesmer, ele and ranger all would be slammed real hard by this.
Updating the other stats will not do much either, the content needs to be designed to deal damage differently.
The horrid mob AI was better in the betas, they “can” do it from a theoretical standpoint, the issue was that the server were not (and I assume still are not) able to handle the extra traffic

Actually the AI is the same from the Beta. The issue here from the beta is that your just have gotten better. The AI hasn’t changed but your skill at the game has changed.

He is talking about earlier betas, where AI design included AoE avoidance

Must be before the betas i got into. I was in the 3 betas before release. There was 2 betas before those 3 that I didn’t get a chance to be in. Anyone able to confirm this?

Talonblaze.3175:

Lishtenbird.2814:

…said a glasscannon zerker warrior with largest health pool in heaviest armor

You seem to forget that Zerker gear isn’t exclusive to just Warriors, in fact, some classes have to take Zerker gear just to be efficient or on par with Warriors, lowering them makes em even squishier than others. Warriors would be the least hurt by that change.

No, that was the point of my comment. The concept of damage “efficiency” comes from comparing the amount of damage dealt by other players to your damage; with zerker warrior being the top DPS class with more innate survivability than other classes, anything that is lower than this in both damage and HP is considered (and, well, often is) less efficient. And we get this mindset as a result:

robertul.3679:

Or..you know..buff other stats..make them worthwhile..

But here we’re already touching class balance and PvE laws which make condition damage (which is often supposed to be an advantage of light classes) mostly useless. With the planned nerf of direct damage, condition (and utility) users will get the exact same “buff”, but it will be relative instead of absolute.

On the other hand, my suggestion shifts this nerf-buff relativity to the field of further build diversity. Let’s take a look at these comments:

Fenrir.3609:

No thanks. Would be fairly amusing having about 8hp on my zerk guard though.

J Eberle.9312:

Yes, because a glass cannon guard already has soooooo much health.

I believe people are missing a certain aspect of my idea here. Let me put in (hypothetical) digits now:

• Currently, your guard in Berserker only has 10k health. Your hypothetical Skill A deals 5000 damage.
• (A-1) Post-patch (planned), your guard in Berserker only has 10k health. Your hypothetical Skill A deals 4500 damage.
• (A-2) Post-patch (planned), your guard in Berserker+Valkyrie+Knight has 12k health. Your hypothetical Skill A deals 4000 damage.
• (B-1) Post-patch (suggested), your guard in Berserker only has 8k health. Your hypothetical Skill A deals 5000 damage.
• (B-2) Post-patch (suggested), your guard in Berserker+Valkyrie+Knight has 10k health. Your hypothetical Skill A deals 4500 damage.

Now, as you can see, options A-1 and B-2 result in exactly the same digits. However!

The planned nerf is a nerf-without-options which simply extends the time needed to kill things and to do speedruns; the suggested nerf is a nerf-with-options which leaves space to build diversity.

So, with the suggested nerf, you actually get the choice to stay exactly the same glasscanon build, but with slightly different gear, OR start to seriously risk your life and bloodlust charges to deliver the highest DPS available.

So, the only problem I see with this solution is that most experienced players have already crafted their Zojja’s ascended gear and would not be happy to recraft it; the solution here is to let people switch stats of stat sets which get affected.

IndigoSundown.5419:

One downside to the OP’s idea is that it will not only affect Berserker gear. Once you introduce “negative stats,” you’ll have to put them on all gear sets, not just the set under discussion. Those other sets, that many believe already under-perform, will get worse.

AFAIK, they are already reworking stats on many sets for introduction of Ferocity. Actually, just having Ferocity affect defense (vitality+toughness) directly via a quirky formula would somewhat already do the thing, but such a way of implementing it would be very non-representative and confusing.

Lishtenbird.2814:

IndigoSundown.5419:

One downside to the OP’s idea is that it will not only affect Berserker gear. Once you introduce “negative stats,” you’ll have to put them on all gear sets, not just the set under discussion. Those other sets, that many believe already under-perform, will get worse.

AFAIK, they are already reworking stats on many sets for introduction of Ferocity.

This is purely speculation.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Actually, just having Ferocity affect defense (vitality+toughness) directly via a quirky formula would somewhat already do the thing, but such a way of implementing it would be very non-representative and confusing.

The user of full berserker gear is going to have the same vitality and toughness after the conversion of Crit % to Ferocity as he does before.

If you have any proof of either assertion, please link it.

They could give a set bonus, for example:

If you wear gear with only the berserker’s prefix, you would deal 10% more damage but receive 25% less healing.

If you wear full defensive gear, you would take 15% less damage but deal 5% less damage.

… but runes kind of already do that. In general though, having negative stats usually means the system is broken.

Lishtenbird.2814:

with zerker warrior being the top DPS class with more innate survivability than other classes, anything that is lower than this in both damage and HP is considered (and, well, often is) less efficient. And we get this mindset as a result:

That is just strait false. I have way more survivability with my full zerker Guardian or full zerker Mesmer. Ya the Warrior have defensive stats that the other (Heavy armor and high vitality), but that all. The guardian have better healing, access to numerous block/invulnerability and defensive boons, without sacrificing any DPS. And the Mesmer’s illusion give a huge advantage in survivability. With the Warrior you kill or you’ll be kill. Once your endurance is empty and you use your Whirlwind then you are screw. Nobody care if you are in a good group, but if the group fail, then you better be a good Warrior player to survive in rough situation (if you want to stay full zerker). The better stats give a starting advantage for the warrior. Usually a big enough advantage to survive long enough to melt your enemies. But in the long run, if thinks don’t go well, the warrior could have some difficulties.

the reason critical damage is being nerfed is because it doesn’t scale linearly. a little bit doesn’t help much, a lot helps more than it should – meaning if you put those same stats into toughness, it wouldn’t offset the extra damage from criticals.
ferocity will be linear – a set amount added to your base damage, rather than a multiplier.

All gear already has this. Just move the baseline and you have negative of whatever other stats isn’t provided by the prefix.

IndigoSundown.5419:

This is purely speculation.

Based on what I read and heard here and there from dev sources. Celestial, trinkets etc.

IndigoSundown.5419:

The user of full berserker gear is going to have the same vitality and toughness after the conversion of Crit % to Ferocity as he does before.

With the planned changes, yes. I might not have worded it clear enough, though I meant if.

Healix.5819:

In general though, having negative stats usually means the system is broken.

Khisanth.2948:

All gear already has this. Just move the baseline and you have negative of whatever other stats isn’t provided by the prefix.

Pretty much this. They’re fixing it because it’s broken, but to fix the concept of true zerg, they would need to move the base stats and add vit/toughness to all the other gear sets. And we all now what will happen if they announce “nerfing of health pool”, even if all other gear buffs result in the exact same digits.

Thaddeus.4891:

That is just strait false. I have way more survivability with my full zerker Guardian or full zerker Mesmer. Ya the Warrior have defensive stats that the other (Heavy armor and high vitality), but that all. The guardian have better healing, access to numerous block/invulnerability and defensive boons, without sacrificing any DPS. And the Mesmer’s illusion give a huge advantage in survivability. With the Warrior you kill or you’ll be kill. Once your endurance is empty and you use your Whirlwind then you are screw. Nobody care if you are in a good group, but if the group fail, then you better be a good Warrior player to survive in rough situation (if you want to stay full zerker). The better stats give a starting advantage for the warrior. Usually a big enough advantage to survive long enough to melt your enemies. But in the long run, if thinks don’t go well, the warrior could have some difficulties.

If it was straight false, we wouldn’t be seeing all those “War Zerk only” or “4 War Zerk, 1 Guard” in LFG (I’ve never seen an LFG for 5 mesmers though). It means it’s true to an extent – more true for PvE, less true for PvP. Our heroes start in PvE environment, and many (if not most, especially the main TA of the game – casual) players are interested only in PvE, so the “balance” of PvE can be generally considered as a benchmark.

Mystic.5934:

the reason critical damage is being nerfed is because it doesn’t scale linearly. a little bit doesn’t help much, a lot helps more than it should – meaning if you put those same stats into toughness, it wouldn’t offset the extra damage from criticals.
ferocity will be linear – a set amount added to your base damage, rather than a multiplier.

True. But their current way of fixing scaling will mean a 10% nerf of builds which were available for testing and balancing since long ago and thus were meant to be in game, and with no option to go true-zerg anymore, it feels more of a “brute-nerf” than “balancing”.

That could be a good way, but it should be implemented in a way that makes Gear’s have different amount of Armor on them(keep in mind that 1 armor equals to 1 toughness) to avoid all the negative number insanity.

It just seems a really bad idea. It will at best change little aside from show up the “bads” and slightly annoy those capable of using zerk still and at worst it will further totally screw up the meta balance in WvW.

If you want to alter the zerk meta in dungeons, then you alter the mob AI and encounter mechanics. Anything short of that is futile and merely done to appease the “omg zerkers are soo unfair” crowd.

That’s such a cool idea! This would bring my 10k HP & 1k8 armor elementalist to around 6k HP & 1k4 armor, which is awesome!

And then a critter with retaliation can get me killed.

Seriously, there is no problem with berserker gear in itself. The issue is with mob design. The devs are nerfing zerker only because they do not have the resources to redesign mobs.

Why do they not have the resources you ask? Because NCSoft.

Why does NCSoft not give Anet more resources to fix mobs AI ? Because this problem affects dungeon runners only. And dungeon runners don’t buy gems. It is better to focus more on the problems of the players who bring money.

You get the idea?

Berserker gear is being nerfed only because berserker users buy less gems than WvWers or World-PvEers.

And that, my friends, is the beauty of micro-transactions.

But I buy gems. :<

Nothing proposed so far addresses the issue that active defence minimizes the value of defensive stats. (You don’t need armor if you dodge the attack, or neutralize it via a utility skill.) And if enemies basically do periodic, big attacks instead of constant small ones, you tend to always have an active defense ready.

But re-designing every enemy in the game is a HUGE task – not just coding, but re-testing and re-balancing. It just won’t happen.

So really, all they can do is to buff the defensive stats to make them more attractive. Maybe vitality should reduce condition duration, for example.

Naevius.3185:

So really, all they can do is to buff the defensive stats to make them more attractive. Maybe vitality should reduce condition duration, for example.

And that won’t happen unless they make SPVP and WVW their own games fully.

Has anyone noticed how they straight up cancel player progression?

Magic find gear removed. You may not agree with the stats but people still did work for that, especially if they used ascended trinkets. They gave the option to change to other stats. Big whoop. A lot of people already had all the stats versions they needed. Level of compensation=minimal

Fractal reset. Never forget. Compensation=0. Bonus: a bunch of lies about a fictional leaderboard no one wanted and it’s not even implemented at this point. If ever.

Berserker gear nerf. Or should I say assassin more. Just introduced, recently, gonna get nerfed to the ground in the future “big” patch. Compensation=-1000. Congrats, now your full ascended armor is maybe less than current exotics. Unless you run carebear magi. Then you can make posts about how they should add increased taken damage to dps gear.
They got a nice carrot going, too bad they slap you in the face with it.

To be honest, usually when something that requires a lot of server side work is announced, It is something that is already been in the works for a while. All the announcement is doing is allowing them to best how to pitch it and why when it gets released.

This is most common in closed party screenings of games/movies. They ask people what they thought of the experience. The illusion is that the people giving the feedback believe their comments will be acted upon. The reality is that the feedback is only used to find out how best to pitch the product in order for people to feel they are getting what they wanted.

The classic case of this was warrior longbow. They said nothing was set in stone. They defined why they were changing it. The next day many players showcased the reasons given were untrue and false. No response was ever given on this. The nerf went ahead simply because it was already done server side and the announcement was only there to create argument about powerful longbow was, to justify the nerf. Instead it showed how little the balance team knew about the game and instead showed whatever reasons were given were illusionary and the nerf was entirely politically motivated, it was always set in stone and just done to slow QQ down.

Bear this in mind with big patches. They are always set in stone. There reasons behind patch decisions may not make sense. Every thing else after is just an exercise oh how to pitch it when the day comes that it gets released.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Having read some discussions on the upcoming 10% nerfing of berserker’s gear, I’ve come up with a following idea:

• keep the overall damage close to the way it is now (ferocity may be introduced regardless);
• introduce negative survivability stats to purely offensive gear.

So, for example a Zojja’s Coat would have stats similar to:

• +106 Power
• +76 Precision
• +5% critical damage
• - 38 vitality
• - 38 toughness

For the sake of balance between gear sets this should be applied to all other stat combos as well. Gear sets that have Vit/Toughness/Healing Power as main stats should have reductions to power/precision/crit damage. If you want to gear for survivability you should have your ability to do damage reduced accordingly.

Lishtenbird.2814:

• This concept ideally describes the spirit of being a berserker: trading survivability for pure damage.

What you fail to realize is that we do this already. We sacrifice defensive stats for offensive stats. If we miss time our dodges/blocks/blinds/reflects we die. Fast. Mitigation is not determined by gear but by the players ability to understand and learn how/when to use the proper mitigation skills.

Lishtenbird.2814:

• It also addresses the main issue of the game which resulted in the dominance of zerker in PvE – the fact that it is fairly easy to survive even without investing in vitality/toughness at all.

Only if you know how to properly mitigate damage. Zerkers can not just stand there and take all the hits. They will die. This is evident by all the “dead zerks do no damage” post.

There seems to be a misconception that all we do is stack and spam 1. This is not true. We actively use all the skills at our disposal to dps as well as mitigate damage through coordination of blocks/blinds/reflects. Anyone who stands in one spot and spams noting but 1 is a bad player regardless of the gear that they wear.

Nike said it best. Gear is nothing more than a representation of the amount of damage you intend to take. If you intend on tanking and taking all the hits then you gear for vit/toughness. If you intend on mitigating damage you gear for dps.

Nerfing zerker too hard after having introduced ascended gear is a recipe for disaster. People are not going to want to regrind another set of ascended gear.

In fact, Anet may have trapped themselves a bit because players are now essentially forced to play only one set of gear — any attempt at diversifying is going to be met with resistance from those who don’t want to grind out more ascended gear.