Guild Wars 2

She is just there to sell you stuff for skills, that you use them less than 3 meters away from where you bought them.
Why don’t you have the actual conversion spend skill points directly, rather than having to buy some random kitties from a nearby merchant, that’ll most likely stay in your inventory because could only buy them in stacks of 5 and you needed 4.

As for the mystic toilet.
I believe the nickname says it all. It’s just a lazy excuse to use many special functions and transformations in the game on the same spot, with a lot of rng, and requiring lots of random junk, just because it only accept Item stacks in fours.
Every function the Mystic Forge provides, is a wasted opportunity for some other area to have some unique funtion in the game.

• Want to change the tier of some mats? Have an NPC in bloodcoast that exchanges mats for other tiers at the cost of skill points and gold.
• Want to infuse an Ascended from fractals? Have some sciency Asuran guy do it near the fractal game for Shard of Crystallized Mists Essence, gold and/or skillpoints directly. Dont make us buy or craft all those random stuff.
• Want to improve the Vine backpiece? Have it be a mini game at your home instance where you’ll have to come every day, and besides using a different of it’s mats, also water it to eventually grow to the tier you want it.
• Want to craft an Legendary? Have some old warlock in Orr take a look at your achievements (not items) and if you are worthy and have a precursor, proceed to summon the ghost of Lisa or Colin Johanson, perhaps have it trigger an event that must be beating to make it appear as a more important occasion, and then hand you the Legendary.

There is not much fun to have a general toilet where you dump 4 stacks of things to have 1 that may (or may not) be better come out.

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

Since the mystic forge is a major gold, item, mats, and skill point sink, what do you suggest in its place to remove these things from the game at the same rate? What gold sinks are you suggesting? I mystic forge all my greens to try for rares. What would be in its place. Your post didn’t address these problems.

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

An indirect gold sink then? When someone buy or crafts 1000 gold worth of weapons to throw in there, they start off with an equity (if that’s the right word) of 1000 gold worth of items and may end up with zero equity.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

An indirect gold sink then? When someone buy or crafts 1000 gold worth of weapons to throw in there, they start off with an equity (if that’s the right word) of 1000 gold worth of items and may end up with zero equity.

In that case the TP would be the gold sink and it would only destroy 10% of the gold.
The player would also end up with at least 1 item in the end, so the equity cant be zero.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

An indirect gold sink then? When someone buy or crafts 1000 gold worth of weapons to throw in there, they start off with an equity (if that’s the right word) of 1000 gold worth of items and may end up with zero equity.

That’s my Point!
Why do we have to buy/get random crap and fill our inventory, just to make this thing work.
Why dont we just pay the Gold/Karma/Skillpoints/Rat-tails directly?!
Then If A-net thinks that some mats-items exist in abundance, just bring the Bazaar back for a month, or better, have it stay permanently. It was a Brilliant way to sink over existing items, while creating some very interesting lore in the process, rather than have to come up with a way to throw them to the mystic toilet as well!

Wanze.8410:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

An indirect gold sink then? When someone buy or crafts 1000 gold worth of weapons to throw in there, they start off with an equity (if that’s the right word) of 1000 gold worth of items and may end up with zero equity.

In that case the TP would be the gold sink and it would only destroy 10% of the gold.
The player would also end up with at least 1 item in the end, so the equity cant be zero.

Ok. One item worth maybe 2 gold or so.

You’re undoubtably technically correct that it’s not a gold sink, but if I put 1000 gold worth of equity into there and end up with 2 gold’s worth in the end, it functions very like a gold sink from where I’m standing.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

An indirect gold sink then? When someone buy or crafts 1000 gold worth of weapons to throw in there, they start off with an equity (if that’s the right word) of 1000 gold worth of items and may end up with zero equity.

In that case the TP would be the gold sink and it would only destroy 10% of the gold.
The player would also end up with at least 1 item in the end, so the equity cant be zero.

Ok. One item worth maybe 2 gold or so.

You’re undoubtably technically correct that it’s not a gold sink, but if I put 1000 gold worth of equity into there and end up with 2 gold’s worth in the end, it functions very like a gold sink from where I’m standing.

Personal gold sink yeah, but idea of real gold sinks is to destroy gold completely from the game, but in that case 900g of that 1000g will just end up to other players and still stay in circulation.

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

An indirect gold sink then? When someone buy or crafts 1000 gold worth of weapons to throw in there, they start off with an equity (if that’s the right word) of 1000 gold worth of items and may end up with zero equity.

In that case the TP would be the gold sink and it would only destroy 10% of the gold.
The player would also end up with at least 1 item in the end, so the equity cant be zero.

Ok. One item worth maybe 2 gold or so.

You’re undoubtably technically correct that it’s not a gold sink, but if I put 1000 gold worth of equity into there and end up with 2 gold’s worth in the end, it functions very like a gold sink from where I’m standing.

Personal gold sink yeah, but idea of real gold sinks is to destroy gold completely from the game, but in that case 900g of that 1000g will just end up to other players and still stay in circulation.

Which is what I meant by saying it’s an indirect gold sink. While equity is not gold, it’s convertible to gold. If I take 1000 gold of equity and destroy it then I have lost 1000 gold of opportunity cost.

If your house worth 100k burns down (and you have no insurance), are you not 100k poorer?

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

An indirect gold sink then? When someone buy or crafts 1000 gold worth of weapons to throw in there, they start off with an equity (if that’s the right word) of 1000 gold worth of items and may end up with zero equity.

In that case the TP would be the gold sink and it would only destroy 10% of the gold.
The player would also end up with at least 1 item in the end, so the equity cant be zero.

Ok. One item worth maybe 2 gold or so.

You’re undoubtably technically correct that it’s not a gold sink, but if I put 1000 gold worth of equity into there and end up with 2 gold’s worth in the end, it functions very like a gold sink from where I’m standing.

Personal gold sink yeah, but idea of real gold sinks is to destroy gold completely from the game, but in that case 900g of that 1000g will just end up to other players and still stay in circulation.

Which is what I meant by saying it’s an indirect gold sink. While equity is not gold, it’s convertible to gold. If I take 1000 gold of equity and destroy it then I have lost 1000 gold of opportunity cost.

If your house worth 100k burns down (and you have no insurance), are you not 100k poorer?

Items and materials are no convertible to gold except if you sell them to a vendor for a couple of silver each. Selling them in TP does not create new gold into game and gold you use to buy them from TP is not destroyed from the game.

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

An indirect gold sink then? When someone buy or crafts 1000 gold worth of weapons to throw in there, they start off with an equity (if that’s the right word) of 1000 gold worth of items and may end up with zero equity.

In that case the TP would be the gold sink and it would only destroy 10% of the gold.
The player would also end up with at least 1 item in the end, so the equity cant be zero.

Ok. One item worth maybe 2 gold or so.

You’re undoubtably technically correct that it’s not a gold sink, but if I put 1000 gold worth of equity into there and end up with 2 gold’s worth in the end, it functions very like a gold sink from where I’m standing.

Personal gold sink yeah, but idea of real gold sinks is to destroy gold completely from the game, but in that case 900g of that 1000g will just end up to other players and still stay in circulation.

Which is what I meant by saying it’s an indirect gold sink. While equity is not gold, it’s convertible to gold. If I take 1000 gold of equity and destroy it then I have lost 1000 gold of opportunity cost.

If your house worth 100k burns down (and you have no insurance), are you not 100k poorer?

Items and materials are no convertible to gold except if you sell them to a vendor for a couple of silver each. Selling them in TP does not create new gold into game and gold you use to buy them from TP is not destroyed from the game.

There is still opportunity cost from the destruction of the items. The gold you could have received by selling them is gone. That’s an indirect loss to you. The items hold gold indirectly with their opportunity cost from selling them.

Kite.2510:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

An indirect gold sink then? When someone buy or crafts 1000 gold worth of weapons to throw in there, they start off with an equity (if that’s the right word) of 1000 gold worth of items and may end up with zero equity.

That’s my Point!
Why do we have to buy/get random crap and fill our inventory, just to make this thing work.

Because some mf recipes only require 1/10 or 1/5 of a skillpoint.

This will be changed in HoT anyways.

If you do not attain the items you place in the Mystic Forge from the TP, is it then a Gold sink? Just wondering, as I only place the items I loot there. I’m sure others do so, as well. Or is it no different than placing items in the bank (and never removing them)? And are either of these actions of any consequence?

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

If you do not attain the items you place in the Mystic Forge from the TP, is it then a Gold sink? Just wondering, as I only place the items I loot there. I’m sure others do so, as well. Or is it no different than placing items in the bank (and never removing them)? And are either of these actions of any consequence?

I would say the difference is that items in the bank or tp are recoverable at will and items put in the forge are destroyed. The first is still potential gold, the other is not.

I was more interested in the Gold sink part of the question. I did say that the items in the bank never were removed (in other words – out of circulation).

The argument was that items from the TP were not a Gold sink because gold exchanged hands. So….

If we hold that:

a. ArenaNet wants you to play how you want and
b. the loot system is designed to achieve that goal by distributing items across all playstyles and
c. this results in lots of unwanted loot that must go somewhere and
d. not all of it has a demand on the trading post then
e. the Mystic Forge is a necessary part of the in-game economy in that it completes the cycle of loot.

Items in the TP ARE a gold sink… there’s the listing fee and exchange tax, right?
Every time you exchange items, gold is lost from the game.

Strip Miyani of her clothes, and drop her from a Zephyrite airship into the Mystic Forge, which itself in turn would implode due to the sheer number of skill points Zomorras’ playgirl collected over the past 2.5 years.

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

An indirect gold sink then? When someone buy or crafts 1000 gold worth of weapons to throw in there, they start off with an equity (if that’s the right word) of 1000 gold worth of items and may end up with zero equity.

In that case the TP would be the gold sink and it would only destroy 10% of the gold.
The player would also end up with at least 1 item in the end, so the equity cant be zero.

Ok. One item worth maybe 2 gold or so.

You’re undoubtably technically correct that it’s not a gold sink, but if I put 1000 gold worth of equity into there and end up with 2 gold’s worth in the end, it functions very like a gold sink from where I’m standing.

Personal gold sink yeah, but idea of real gold sinks is to destroy gold completely from the game, but in that case 900g of that 1000g will just end up to other players and still stay in circulation.

Which is what I meant by saying it’s an indirect gold sink. While equity is not gold, it’s convertible to gold. If I take 1000 gold of equity and destroy it then I have lost 1000 gold of opportunity cost.

If your house worth 100k burns down (and you have no insurance), are you not 100k poorer?

Items and materials are no convertible to gold except if you sell them to a vendor for a couple of silver each. Selling them in TP does not create new gold into game and gold you use to buy them from TP is not destroyed from the game.

You seem to be missing the math. Items are worth a value of gold. You are spending 1000 gold because that is the market value of those items. The fact that they are items doesn’t change that it’s possible to get 1000 gold for them. Therefore it is reasonable to say the trade is 1000 gold for 1000 gold. One recipient gains a cluster of items for 1000 gold, the other gains 900 gold for 1000 gold.

If you then flush those items down the toilet you are effectively burning 1000 gold that can no longer be acquired since the items no longer exist. Also, since 100 gold evaporated in the sale itself, even if you manage to come out of the deal with 100 gold of new items 1000 gold still disappeared from the game.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

An indirect gold sink then? When someone buy or crafts 1000 gold worth of weapons to throw in there, they start off with an equity (if that’s the right word) of 1000 gold worth of items and may end up with zero equity.

In that case the TP would be the gold sink and it would only destroy 10% of the gold.
The player would also end up with at least 1 item in the end, so the equity cant be zero.

Ok. One item worth maybe 2 gold or so.

You’re undoubtably technically correct that it’s not a gold sink, but if I put 1000 gold worth of equity into there and end up with 2 gold’s worth in the end, it functions very like a gold sink from where I’m standing.

Personal gold sink yeah, but idea of real gold sinks is to destroy gold completely from the game, but in that case 900g of that 1000g will just end up to other players and still stay in circulation.

Which is what I meant by saying it’s an indirect gold sink. While equity is not gold, it’s convertible to gold. If I take 1000 gold of equity and destroy it then I have lost 1000 gold of opportunity cost.

If your house worth 100k burns down (and you have no insurance), are you not 100k poorer?

Items and materials are no convertible to gold except if you sell them to a vendor for a couple of silver each. Selling them in TP does not create new gold into game and gold you use to buy them from TP is not destroyed from the game.

You seem to be missing the math. Items are worth a value of gold. You are spending 1000 gold because that is the market value of those items. The fact that they are items doesn’t change that it’s possible to get 1000 gold for them. Therefore it is reasonable to say the trade is 1000 gold for 1000 gold. One recipient gains a cluster of items for 1000 gold, the other gains 900 gold for 1000 gold.

If you then flush those items down the toilet you are effectively burning 1000 gold that can no longer be acquired since the items no longer exist. Also, since 100 gold evaporated in the sale itself, even if you manage to come out of the deal with 100 gold of new items 1000 gold still disappeared from the game.

This.

Also, let’s not forget to mention the 15% trade tax on the TP when changing owner of materials, intermediate items and final products.

Some people should think before posting and examine the effect of ingame actions to their full extent. Not just 2 numbers changing between 2 accounts.

Cyninja.2954:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

An indirect gold sink then? When someone buy or crafts 1000 gold worth of weapons to throw in there, they start off with an equity (if that’s the right word) of 1000 gold worth of items and may end up with zero equity.

In that case the TP would be the gold sink and it would only destroy 10% of the gold.
The player would also end up with at least 1 item in the end, so the equity cant be zero.

Ok. One item worth maybe 2 gold or so.

You’re undoubtably technically correct that it’s not a gold sink, but if I put 1000 gold worth of equity into there and end up with 2 gold’s worth in the end, it functions very like a gold sink from where I’m standing.

Personal gold sink yeah, but idea of real gold sinks is to destroy gold completely from the game, but in that case 900g of that 1000g will just end up to other players and still stay in circulation.

Which is what I meant by saying it’s an indirect gold sink. While equity is not gold, it’s convertible to gold. If I take 1000 gold of equity and destroy it then I have lost 1000 gold of opportunity cost.

If your house worth 100k burns down (and you have no insurance), are you not 100k poorer?

Items and materials are no convertible to gold except if you sell them to a vendor for a couple of silver each. Selling them in TP does not create new gold into game and gold you use to buy them from TP is not destroyed from the game.

You seem to be missing the math. Items are worth a value of gold. You are spending 1000 gold because that is the market value of those items. The fact that they are items doesn’t change that it’s possible to get 1000 gold for them. Therefore it is reasonable to say the trade is 1000 gold for 1000 gold. One recipient gains a cluster of items for 1000 gold, the other gains 900 gold for 1000 gold.

If you then flush those items down the toilet you are effectively burning 1000 gold that can no longer be acquired since the items no longer exist. Also, since 100 gold evaporated in the sale itself, even if you manage to come out of the deal with 100 gold of new items 1000 gold still disappeared from the game.

This.

Also, let’s not forget to mention the 15% trade tax on the TP when changing owner of materials, intermediate items and final products.

Some people should think before posting and examine the effect of ingame actions to their full extent. Not just 2 numbers changing between 2 accounts.

Maybe you should double check what you are posting. The mystic forge is not a goldsink but a material sink, its as simple as that.
And if I buy materials for 1000g on the tp, only 10% of my gold gets destroyed by the transaction fee, not 15%. The 5% were paid for by the gold of the seller for listing it.
Materials can only create gold, if you sell them to a vendor, so the vendor value is the potential gold gain, you are sinking by throwing them into the forge.

If you remove the forge, you need a new material sink, not a new gold sink.

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

An indirect gold sink then? When someone buy or crafts 1000 gold worth of weapons to throw in there, they start off with an equity (if that’s the right word) of 1000 gold worth of items and may end up with zero equity.

In that case the TP would be the gold sink and it would only destroy 10% of the gold.
The player would also end up with at least 1 item in the end, so the equity cant be zero.

Ok. One item worth maybe 2 gold or so.

You’re undoubtably technically correct that it’s not a gold sink, but if I put 1000 gold worth of equity into there and end up with 2 gold’s worth in the end, it functions very like a gold sink from where I’m standing.

Personal gold sink yeah, but idea of real gold sinks is to destroy gold completely from the game, but in that case 900g of that 1000g will just end up to other players and still stay in circulation.

Which is what I meant by saying it’s an indirect gold sink. While equity is not gold, it’s convertible to gold. If I take 1000 gold of equity and destroy it then I have lost 1000 gold of opportunity cost.

If your house worth 100k burns down (and you have no insurance), are you not 100k poorer?

Items and materials are no convertible to gold except if you sell them to a vendor for a couple of silver each. Selling them in TP does not create new gold into game and gold you use to buy them from TP is not destroyed from the game.

You seem to be missing the math. Items are worth a value of gold. You are spending 1000 gold because that is the market value of those items. The fact that they are items doesn’t change that it’s possible to get 1000 gold for them. Therefore it is reasonable to say the trade is 1000 gold for 1000 gold. One recipient gains a cluster of items for 1000 gold, the other gains 900 gold for 1000 gold.

If you then flush those items down the toilet you are effectively burning 1000 gold that can no longer be acquired since the items no longer exist. Also, since 100 gold evaporated in the sale itself, even if you manage to come out of the deal with 100 gold of new items 1000 gold still disappeared from the game.

This.

Also, let’s not forget to mention the 15% trade tax on the TP when changing owner of materials, intermediate items and final products.

Some people should think before posting and examine the effect of ingame actions to their full extent. Not just 2 numbers changing between 2 accounts.

Maybe you should double check what you are posting. The mystic forge is not a goldsink but a material sink, its as simple as that.
And if I buy materials for 1000g on the tp, only 10% of my gold gets destroyed by the transaction fee, not 15%. The 5% were paid for by the gold of the seller for listing it.
Materials can only create gold, if you sell them to a vendor, so the vendor value is the potential gold gain, you are sinking by throwing them into the forge.

If you remove the forge, you need a new material sink, not a new gold sink.

And since the materials are worth gold, and you are destroying the materials, you are destroying a value of gold that can no longer be gained. It’s the same thing.

Wanze.8410:

Maybe you should double check what you are posting. The mystic forge is not a goldsink but a material sink, its as simple as that.
And if I buy materials for 1000g on the tp, only 10% of my gold gets destroyed by the transaction fee, not 15%. The 5% were paid for by the gold of the seller for listing it.
Materials can only create gold, if you sell them to a vendor, so the vendor value is the potential gold gain, you are sinking by throwing them into the forge.

If you remove the forge, you need a new material sink, not a new gold sink.

You are a bit picky today – and there’s no reason for that actually: The more mats disappear the more their value will rise, the more people have to pay on the TP to get said material, the more gold will be lost as a fee.
So technically the MF can be seen as a tool to remove gold from the game.

Also I am pretty sure that skillpoints will be changed into heropoints after level 80, the rest will stay the same- but maybe I’m wrong.

I got Dawn out of the mystic toilet, so Zomorros is cool in my book.

/high-fives Miyani

(No, I didn’t blow hundreds of gold gambling)
(I got the pre from chucking excess untradable dungeon weapons from PvP tracks)
(Yes, I’m a lucky SOB.)

It’s a great way to recycle account-bound items you don’t want. It’s also pretty good for taking the insane amount of greens from the Silverwastes and getting some extra ecto out of it. If you’re annoyed at it because of gambling losses, that’s your own problem. I do think the mat requirements for most of the set recipes are kind of ridiculous though, with most of them needing full stacks. They could tone some of them down a little bit.

I’d be cool with special NPCs for upgrading and crafting some of the special items, so your main idea is alright. Like a spirit smith that makes the spirit weapons, some librarian type that you help translate old/rare books that gives you the book backpieces, an alchemist that can upgrade your mats, etc. The main function of the forge can stay though.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

An indirect gold sink then? When someone buy or crafts 1000 gold worth of weapons to throw in there, they start off with an equity (if that’s the right word) of 1000 gold worth of items and may end up with zero equity.

In that case the TP would be the gold sink and it would only destroy 10% of the gold.
The player would also end up with at least 1 item in the end, so the equity cant be zero.

Ok. One item worth maybe 2 gold or so.

You’re undoubtably technically correct that it’s not a gold sink, but if I put 1000 gold worth of equity into there and end up with 2 gold’s worth in the end, it functions very like a gold sink from where I’m standing.

Personal gold sink yeah, but idea of real gold sinks is to destroy gold completely from the game, but in that case 900g of that 1000g will just end up to other players and still stay in circulation.

Which is what I meant by saying it’s an indirect gold sink. While equity is not gold, it’s convertible to gold. If I take 1000 gold of equity and destroy it then I have lost 1000 gold of opportunity cost.

If your house worth 100k burns down (and you have no insurance), are you not 100k poorer?

Items and materials are no convertible to gold except if you sell them to a vendor for a couple of silver each. Selling them in TP does not create new gold into game and gold you use to buy them from TP is not destroyed from the game.

You seem to be missing the math. Items are worth a value of gold. You are spending 1000 gold because that is the market value of those items. The fact that they are items doesn’t change that it’s possible to get 1000 gold for them. Therefore it is reasonable to say the trade is 1000 gold for 1000 gold. One recipient gains a cluster of items for 1000 gold, the other gains 900 gold for 1000 gold.

If you then flush those items down the toilet you are effectively burning 1000 gold that can no longer be acquired since the items no longer exist. Also, since 100 gold evaporated in the sale itself, even if you manage to come out of the deal with 100 gold of new items 1000 gold still disappeared from the game.

This.

Also, let’s not forget to mention the 15% trade tax on the TP when changing owner of materials, intermediate items and final products.

Some people should think before posting and examine the effect of ingame actions to their full extent. Not just 2 numbers changing between 2 accounts.

Maybe you should double check what you are posting. The mystic forge is not a goldsink but a material sink, its as simple as that.
And if I buy materials for 1000g on the tp, only 10% of my gold gets destroyed by the transaction fee, not 15%. The 5% were paid for by the gold of the seller for listing it.
Materials can only create gold, if you sell them to a vendor, so the vendor value is the potential gold gain, you are sinking by throwing them into the forge.

If you remove the forge, you need a new material sink, not a new gold sink.

And since the materials are worth gold, and you are destroying the materials, you are destroying a value of gold that can no longer be gained. It’s the same thing.

Its still not a gold sink, if you never decided to create/gain that gold in the first place, so it never existed.
Its a material sink.

Jana.6831:

Wanze.8410:

Maybe you should double check what you are posting. The mystic forge is not a goldsink but a material sink, its as simple as that.
And if I buy materials for 1000g on the tp, only 10% of my gold gets destroyed by the transaction fee, not 15%. The 5% were paid for by the gold of the seller for listing it.
Materials can only create gold, if you sell them to a vendor, so the vendor value is the potential gold gain, you are sinking by throwing them into the forge.

If you remove the forge, you need a new material sink, not a new gold sink.

You are a bit picky today – and there’s no reason for that actually: The more mats disappear the more their value will rise, the more people have to pay on the TP to get said material, the more gold will be lost as a fee.
So technically the MF can be seen as a tool to remove gold from the game.

Also I am pretty sure that skillpoints will be changed into heropoints after level 80, the rest will stay the same- but maybe I’m wrong.

But if the main sink for those mats is the forge and the forge doesnt exist anymore, why would people buy them on the tp?

And in your scenario, the tp would be the gold sink, not the forge.

Wanze.8410:

But if the main sink for those mats is the forge and the forge doesnt exist anymore, why would people buy them on the tp?

The mats are needed for several things: crafting, legendaries, recipes and whatever, so people still buy them on the TP.
(Just give it a rest, we got your point and disagree, no reason to repeat it over and over).

Edit: If you complain that others didn’t read carefully enough the same should apply to you, right?

“So technically the MF can be seen as a tool to remove gold from the game.”

Jana.6831:

Wanze.8410:

But if the main sink for those mats is the forge and the forge doesnt exist anymore, why would people buy them on the tp?

The mats are needed for several things: crafting, legendaries, recipes and whatever, so people still buy them on the TP.
(Just give it a rest, we got your point and disagree, no reason to repeat it over and over).

So is the tp the gold sink or the forge? im confused.

Wanze.8410:

Jana.6831:

Wanze.8410:

But if the main sink for those mats is the forge and the forge doesnt exist anymore, why would people buy them on the tp?

The mats are needed for several things: crafting, legendaries, recipes and whatever, so people still buy them on the TP.
(Just give it a rest, we got your point and disagree, no reason to repeat it over and over).

So is the tp the gold sink or the forge? im confused.

“So technically the MF can be seen as a tool to remove gold from the game.”

Yeah, I’m rolling eyes right now =)

And by the way: I’m the probably only maniac who farms all her mats instead of buying them.

Jana.6831:

Wanze.8410:

But if the main sink for those mats is the forge and the forge doesnt exist anymore, why would people buy them on the tp?

The mats are needed for several things: crafting, legendaries, recipes and whatever, so people still buy them on the TP.
(Just give it a rest, we got your point and disagree, no reason to repeat it over and over).

Edit: If you complain that others didn’t read carefully enough the same should apply to you, right?

“So technically the MF can be seen as a tool to remove gold from the game.”

You might want to read the cyninjas post again which started this argument:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

Wanze.8410:

You might want to read the cyninjas post again which started this argument:

Imagine what would happen if the MF wasn’t anymore – we would have very few T6 mats but tons of Tier 1 to T5 mats no one would need anymore as T5 mats are used for yellows (and to create T6) which wouldn’t be created anymore, or at least not in that extend.
So, no one would buy Tier 1 to T5 mats but everybody would sell them to vendors = the game would create gold.
On the other hand T6 mats became more expensive to create legendaries (if that was still possible without MF) thus a “gold sink” because of the fees.
Anet still could make Tier 1 to T5 mats that cheap that selling them to the vendors wouldn’t create that much gold, but people would be unhappy.

So, the MF has got a triple meaning:
1) mat sink
2) gold sink
3) keeping us happy (as we can farm all mats which still ahve value because of 1))

So, lean back and relax maybe?
And btw the person you quoted already altered their statement to make you happy, but that obviously didn’t work

Edit: I have to work around the filter as it doesn’t want to take my Tier 1 mats
Otherwise just throw kittens into the MF

Wanze is right. It’s not a gold sink. Or at least not in ANet’s eyes and they only look at the overall picture.

The Trading Post doesn’t create gold, the gold has to come from another player. The Trading Post only destroys gold. And only from the player who gives up the physical item and receives gold. Not selling something on the Trading Post actually keeps gold from disappearing from the game completely. Just because an item is worth 100 gold on the Trading Post doesn’t mean that if you throw it in the Mystic Forge 100 gold disappears from the game. It doesn’t.

~~~

But on a personal, one player scale, Wanze is wrong. It is a gold sink. It reduces the gold and assets an individual player has. If you forge a 100 gold worth of items and get something worse less than 100 gold in return, you’ve personally lost gold.

As a thought experiment, what if the items you were using to craft the weapons with had no gold/trade value and those weapons also had no trade value. You craft 100 weapons, put them in, and lose no gold. It’s a pure material sink.

In this game you craft 100 weapons, you put them in and you lose both the mats and the gold you could have gained from selling the mats. So, it’s more than just a material sink, it’s also indirectly a gold sink but on the player level.

The debate about gold vs material sink seems mainly to be a microeconomics vs macroeconomics distinction to me.

On a personal level, yes, you could trade those materials in for gold on the trading post, so you are losing personal value. (Microeconomics perspective.)

But if the mystic forge isn’t destroying gold, then it isn’t much of a gold sink. The only gold you would potentially be taking out of the economy as a whole is the value you could get from NPCs for the item, which is largely trivial (although not always!) This is more of a macroeconomic perspective.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

As a thought experiment, what if the items you were using to craft the weapons with had no gold/trade value and those weapons also had no trade value. You craft 100 weapons, put them in, and lose no gold. It’s a pure material sink.

In this game you craft 100 weapons, you put them in and you lose both the mats and the gold you could have gained from selling the mats. So, it’s more than just a material sink, it’s also indirectly a gold sink but on the player level.

But the gold you could have gained from it is still sitting in other player’s account. No gold has disappeared from the game.

On the overall large scale that ANet looks at, it’s not a gold sink.

People who want to discuss the definition of “gold sink” should maybe start a new thread. Can we at least agree that the MF is a sink and that removing it would affect the economy? Maybe we don’t agree on what is sunk or where and what should replace Zommy (if anything).

The OP’s suggestion was two parts:

• Remove Miyani, since anything she sells only gets used in the forge, which is (for most people) right next to her.
• Remove the Mystic Forge itself, since it just converts one sort of unwanted “stuff” into another sort of differently-unwanted stuff.

I disagree with both suggestions:

As pointed out by others, not everything costs a full SP and (currently) those are soulbound. Even after HoT introduces the new and account-bound Miyani Currency™, there will be “recipes” that require experimentation. Some will take one sort of consumable, some another.

As pointed out by just about everyone, the forge serves a number of purposes. Some of the recipes aren’t random. But even for the ones that are, some people like gambling — the value is in the anticipation of getting something extremely valuable for next-to-nothing. Further, although the “house always wins” in gambling, people who are familiar with MF stats can profit; you just have to be careful not to overspend on your inputs and to play long enough for the Law of Large Numbers to work in your favor.

Further, as noted by many, the forge mechanics ensure that tons of wealth is sucked out of the economy. Something would have to replace Zommy’s incredible sinking machine.

Finally, I find the entire process a lot of fun. Throwing stuff at Zommy is one of my favorite pastimes in the game. I can’t say if I’m in the majority, but I’m definitely one of many who feels that way.

Seera.5916:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

As a thought experiment, what if the items you were using to craft the weapons with had no gold/trade value and those weapons also had no trade value. You craft 100 weapons, put them in, and lose no gold. It’s a pure material sink.

In this game you craft 100 weapons, you put them in and you lose both the mats and the gold you could have gained from selling the mats. So, it’s more than just a material sink, it’s also indirectly a gold sink but on the player level.

But the gold you could have gained from it is still sitting in other player’s account. No gold has disappeared from the game.

On the overall large scale that ANet looks at, it’s not a gold sink.

It depends on which direction you look at it. From ANet’s large scale direction, no gold has been lost. From my personal small scale direction, gold has been lost.

As the poster above pointed out it’s the difference between a macroeconomic and a microeconomic consideration. They can be both correct.

Seera.5916:

But the gold you could have gained from it is still sitting in other player’s account. No gold has disappeared from the game.

No, 15% of what it’s worth has dissapeared right away, if the item itself disappears your personal wealth has gotten smaller and the value of the remaining items in game has increased.

….

Yes, if viewed seperately in a close space with no interaction to other aspects of the game the amount of gold destroyed by the mf is minimal.

- Let’s omit the effect on price of items on the TP and the resulting trading post fees (which are directly related to the amount of items destoryed in the mf, especially for precursor crafting and all the intermediate steps).

- Let’s omit the materials needed to buy for conversion etc from Miyani for all those mf recepies (since technically she is a merchant ant not the mf)

- Let’s omit any effect on item destruction (salvaging instead of selling) the mystic forge has on the game economy

- Let’s omit the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mystic_Salvage_Kit

I guess if we leave out EVERYTHING and focus ONLY on the TP cost for direct materials, sure the actual gold sink is minimal. Then again, maybe just maybe the existance and way the mystic forge is implemented might affect quite a few things in this game economy.

I never said the mf is NOT a material sink. I just did not mention it since I did not feel the need to write paragraphs of text.

PS. since the topic of micro and macro economy comes up. Let’s start a debate aout behavior of players with different amounts of wealth since that is directly affected by the mf and has quite an influence on the total amount of gold (see gem store for exmaple).

All the items thrown into the forge have a sale price to vendors, new gold is put into the game when you sell to merchants. By throwing in the forge instead you will reduce the amount of new gold in game.

Its also a way of removing things players get from playing the game, indirectly increasing other objects value on the TP and increasing taxes.

It also increases player desire to buy things on TP, removing more gold.

Its a gold sink.

Jana.6831:

Seera.5916:

But the gold you could have gained from it is still sitting in other player’s account. No gold has disappeared from the game.

No, 15% of what it’s worth has dissapeared right away, if the item itself disappears your personal wealth has gotten smaller and the value of the remaining items in game has increased.

Note that I said could have gained. As in, you didn’t sell the item. So no gold has left the game at all. Not even the 15% taxes, which I did not forget about.

But if I could list an item for 100 gold and have it sell, but I don’t sell it and instead I mystic forge it, the 85 gold that I would have gotten after taxes if I had sold it is still sitting in someone else’s account, right?

And if you read my earlier responses, you would know that I think of the Mystic Forge as an overall (macro) mat sink but a personal (micro) gold and mat sink.

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

An indirect gold sink then? When someone buy or crafts 1000 gold worth of weapons to throw in there, they start off with an equity (if that’s the right word) of 1000 gold worth of items and may end up with zero equity.

In that case the TP would be the gold sink and it would only destroy 10% of the gold.
The player would also end up with at least 1 item in the end, so the equity cant be zero.

Ok. One item worth maybe 2 gold or so.

You’re undoubtably technically correct that it’s not a gold sink, but if I put 1000 gold worth of equity into there and end up with 2 gold’s worth in the end, it functions very like a gold sink from where I’m standing.

Personal gold sink yeah, but idea of real gold sinks is to destroy gold completely from the game, but in that case 900g of that 1000g will just end up to other players and still stay in circulation.

Which is what I meant by saying it’s an indirect gold sink. While equity is not gold, it’s convertible to gold. If I take 1000 gold of equity and destroy it then I have lost 1000 gold of opportunity cost.

If your house worth 100k burns down (and you have no insurance), are you not 100k poorer?

Items and materials are no convertible to gold except if you sell them to a vendor for a couple of silver each. Selling them in TP does not create new gold into game and gold you use to buy them from TP is not destroyed from the game.

You seem to be missing the math. Items are worth a value of gold. You are spending 1000 gold because that is the market value of those items. The fact that they are items doesn’t change that it’s possible to get 1000 gold for them. Therefore it is reasonable to say the trade is 1000 gold for 1000 gold. One recipient gains a cluster of items for 1000 gold, the other gains 900 gold for 1000 gold.

If you then flush those items down the toilet you are effectively burning 1000 gold that can no longer be acquired since the items no longer exist. Also, since 100 gold evaporated in the sale itself, even if you manage to come out of the deal with 100 gold of new items 1000 gold still disappeared from the game.

This.

Also, let’s not forget to mention the 15% trade tax on the TP when changing owner of materials, intermediate items and final products.

Some people should think before posting and examine the effect of ingame actions to their full extent. Not just 2 numbers changing between 2 accounts.

Maybe you should double check what you are posting. The mystic forge is not a goldsink but a material sink, its as simple as that.
And if I buy materials for 1000g on the tp, only 10% of my gold gets destroyed by the transaction fee, not 15%. The 5% were paid for by the gold of the seller for listing it.
Materials can only create gold, if you sell them to a vendor, so the vendor value is the potential gold gain, you are sinking by throwing them into the forge.

If you remove the forge, you need a new material sink, not a new gold sink.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trading_Post

I see 15% getting taken out of the game economy.

QUOTE

Additional fees

Selling items on the Trading Post requires additional coin fees, based on the total sale price.

Listing Fee (5%) — This nonrefundable cost covers listing and holding your items for sale. This fee has a minimum of 1 Copper coin.
Exchange Fee (10%) — After a successful trade, the item exchange fee is deducted from coins delivered to the seller. This fee has a minimum of 1 Copper coin.

END QUOTE

Or did I miss something? Does it matter from who the gold gets removed when viewed globaly?

Cyninja.2954:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

An indirect gold sink then? When someone buy or crafts 1000 gold worth of weapons to throw in there, they start off with an equity (if that’s the right word) of 1000 gold worth of items and may end up with zero equity.

In that case the TP would be the gold sink and it would only destroy 10% of the gold.
The player would also end up with at least 1 item in the end, so the equity cant be zero.

Ok. One item worth maybe 2 gold or so.

You’re undoubtably technically correct that it’s not a gold sink, but if I put 1000 gold worth of equity into there and end up with 2 gold’s worth in the end, it functions very like a gold sink from where I’m standing.

Personal gold sink yeah, but idea of real gold sinks is to destroy gold completely from the game, but in that case 900g of that 1000g will just end up to other players and still stay in circulation.

Which is what I meant by saying it’s an indirect gold sink. While equity is not gold, it’s convertible to gold. If I take 1000 gold of equity and destroy it then I have lost 1000 gold of opportunity cost.

If your house worth 100k burns down (and you have no insurance), are you not 100k poorer?

Items and materials are no convertible to gold except if you sell them to a vendor for a couple of silver each. Selling them in TP does not create new gold into game and gold you use to buy them from TP is not destroyed from the game.

You seem to be missing the math. Items are worth a value of gold. You are spending 1000 gold because that is the market value of those items. The fact that they are items doesn’t change that it’s possible to get 1000 gold for them. Therefore it is reasonable to say the trade is 1000 gold for 1000 gold. One recipient gains a cluster of items for 1000 gold, the other gains 900 gold for 1000 gold.

If you then flush those items down the toilet you are effectively burning 1000 gold that can no longer be acquired since the items no longer exist. Also, since 100 gold evaporated in the sale itself, even if you manage to come out of the deal with 100 gold of new items 1000 gold still disappeared from the game.

This.

Also, let’s not forget to mention the 15% trade tax on the TP when changing owner of materials, intermediate items and final products.

Some people should think before posting and examine the effect of ingame actions to their full extent. Not just 2 numbers changing between 2 accounts.

Maybe you should double check what you are posting. The mystic forge is not a goldsink but a material sink, its as simple as that.
And if I buy materials for 1000g on the tp, only 10% of my gold gets destroyed by the transaction fee, not 15%. The 5% were paid for by the gold of the seller for listing it.
Materials can only create gold, if you sell them to a vendor, so the vendor value is the potential gold gain, you are sinking by throwing them into the forge.

If you remove the forge, you need a new material sink, not a new gold sink.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trading_Post

I see 15% getting taken out of the game economy.

QUOTE

Additional fees

Selling items on the Trading Post requires additional coin fees, based on the total sale price.

Listing Fee (5%) — This nonrefundable cost covers listing and holding your items for sale. This fee has a minimum of 1 Copper coin.
Exchange Fee (10%) — After a successful trade, the item exchange fee is deducted from coins delivered to the seller. This fee has a minimum of 1 Copper coin.

END QUOTE

Or did I miss something? Does it matter from who the gold gets removed when viewed globaly?

I didnt dispute that the tp is a gold sink, i disputed that the mystic forge is a gold sink.

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Ameepa.6793:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Because the mystic forge is designed as a huge gold sink. Nothing more, nothing less. That and some people really like gambling.

Changing any of this drastically would require alternate gold sinks to get created.

I have yet to manage to give Zomorros gold donations.
Its a material sink.

An indirect gold sink then? When someone buy or crafts 1000 gold worth of weapons to throw in there, they start off with an equity (if that’s the right word) of 1000 gold worth of items and may end up with zero equity.

In that case the TP would be the gold sink and it would only destroy 10% of the gold.
The player would also end up with at least 1 item in the end, so the equity cant be zero.

Ok. One item worth maybe 2 gold or so.

You’re undoubtably technically correct that it’s not a gold sink, but if I put 1000 gold worth of equity into there and end up with 2 gold’s worth in the end, it functions very like a gold sink from where I’m standing.

Personal gold sink yeah, but idea of real gold sinks is to destroy gold completely from the game, but in that case 900g of that 1000g will just end up to other players and still stay in circulation.

Which is what I meant by saying it’s an indirect gold sink. While equity is not gold, it’s convertible to gold. If I take 1000 gold of equity and destroy it then I have lost 1000 gold of opportunity cost.

If your house worth 100k burns down (and you have no insurance), are you not 100k poorer?

Items and materials are no convertible to gold except if you sell them to a vendor for a couple of silver each. Selling them in TP does not create new gold into game and gold you use to buy them from TP is not destroyed from the game.

You seem to be missing the math. Items are worth a value of gold. You are spending 1000 gold because that is the market value of those items. The fact that they are items doesn’t change that it’s possible to get 1000 gold for them. Therefore it is reasonable to say the trade is 1000 gold for 1000 gold. One recipient gains a cluster of items for 1000 gold, the other gains 900 gold for 1000 gold.

If you then flush those items down the toilet you are effectively burning 1000 gold that can no longer be acquired since the items no longer exist. Also, since 100 gold evaporated in the sale itself, even if you manage to come out of the deal with 100 gold of new items 1000 gold still disappeared from the game.

This.

Also, let’s not forget to mention the 15% trade tax on the TP when changing owner of materials, intermediate items and final products.

Some people should think before posting and examine the effect of ingame actions to their full extent. Not just 2 numbers changing between 2 accounts.

Maybe you should double check what you are posting. The mystic forge is not a goldsink but a material sink, its as simple as that.
And if I buy materials for 1000g on the tp, only 10% of my gold gets destroyed by the transaction fee, not 15%. The 5% were paid for by the gold of the seller for listing it.
Materials can only create gold, if you sell them to a vendor, so the vendor value is the potential gold gain, you are sinking by throwing them into the forge.

If you remove the forge, you need a new material sink, not a new gold sink.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trading_Post

I see 15% getting taken out of the game economy.

QUOTE

Additional fees

Selling items on the Trading Post requires additional coin fees, based on the total sale price.

Listing Fee (5%) — This nonrefundable cost covers listing and holding your items for sale. This fee has a minimum of 1 Copper coin.
Exchange Fee (10%) — After a successful trade, the item exchange fee is deducted from coins delivered to the seller. This fee has a minimum of 1 Copper coin.

END QUOTE

Or did I miss something? Does it matter from who the gold gets removed when viewed globaly?

I didnt dispute that the tp is a gold sink, i disputed that the mystic forge is a gold sink.

People buying massive amounts of rare greatswords to throw in the mf counts as only trading post gold sink? Hmm I doubt that would happen without both.

Seera.5916:

Note that I said could have gained. As in, you didn’t sell the item. So no gold has left the game at all. Not even the 15% taxes, which I did not forget about.

But if I could list an item for 100 gold and have it sell, but I don’t sell it and instead I mystic forge it, the 85 gold that I would have gotten after taxes if I had sold it is still sitting in someone else’s account, right?

And if you read my earlier responses, you would know that I think of the Mystic Forge as an overall (macro) mat sink but a personal (micro) gold and mat sink.

If something has changed its owner it has gotten through the TP, so 15% of its worth has been removed from the game in form of gold. Unless you gift everything you own, then nothing is gained or lost.
Yes, if you don’t sell it the gold is still in game.
Well, I don’t think you read any of my responses, so forgive me if I only reply to one of yours.
But here again: The MF is a (Edit: tool for a) ° macro gold sink in my opinion.
We can start to theorycraft what influence the decrease of personal wealth has got on the gold amount in game. If you’re becoming poorer gold means more to you, so you either start to farm it by doing events/killing mobs or farming nodes, thus selling stuff on the TP and so on – might be interesting to spin this further.
And I think that is what anet already tried in fall 2013 – didn’t work too well, since then we’re overflooded with gold and items – I willnever get why I get a monthly 2% more gold from monsters increase.

° The TP wouldn’t work as it does without the MF.

Cyninja.2954:

People buying massive amounts of rare greatswords to throw in the mf counts as only trading post gold sink? Hmm I doubt that would happen without both.

Both what?

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

People buying massive amounts of rare greatswords to throw in the mf counts as only trading post gold sink? Hmm I doubt that would happen without both.

Both what?

Both the Trading Post and the Mystic Forge.

Without the gambling done in the Mystic Forge to get precursors and other expensive weapons that can drop from the Mystic Forge, would people buy as many level 80 rare and exotic weapons? So wouldn’t the price of rare and exotic level 80 weapons decrease due to less demand? Reducing the amount of gold taken out via Trading Post taxes.

Seera.5916:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

People buying massive amounts of rare greatswords to throw in the mf counts as only trading post gold sink? Hmm I doubt that would happen without both.

Both what?

Both the Trading Post and the Mystic Forge.

Without the gambling done in the Mystic Forge to get precursors and other expensive weapons that can drop from the Mystic Forge, would people buy as many level 80 rare and exotic weapons? So wouldn’t the price of rare and exotic level 80 weapons decrease due to less demand? Reducing the amount of gold taken out via Trading Post taxes.

This one gets it.

EDIT:

We can only speculate on what would happen without the TP (though I completely agree with your assumption) but as is, the mf creates a high demand for rares to throw in the mf (and partialy exotics) especially for desired weapon types. Just look at the difference of almost 2 times the price between greatswords and staves vs for example bows and pistols.

This effect also extends to crafting mats and T5 mats, etcetcetc

Cyninja.2954:

Seera.5916:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

People buying massive amounts of rare greatswords to throw in the mf counts as only trading post gold sink? Hmm I doubt that would happen without both.

Both what?

Both the Trading Post and the Mystic Forge.

Without the gambling done in the Mystic Forge to get precursors and other expensive weapons that can drop from the Mystic Forge, would people buy as many level 80 rare and exotic weapons? So wouldn’t the price of rare and exotic level 80 weapons decrease due to less demand? Reducing the amount of gold taken out via Trading Post taxes.

This one gets it.

EDIT:

We can only speculate on what would happen without the TP (though I completely agree with your assumption) but as is, the mf creates a high demand for rares to throw in the mf (and partialy exotics) especially for desired weapon types. Just look at the difference of almost 2 times the price between greatswords and staves vs for example bows and pistols.

This effect also extends to crafting mats and T5 mats, etcetcetc

So assuming the mf blows up, all we need is another material sink for rare greatswords in order for the tp to be as effective a gold sink as it currently is.