Guild Wars 2

A Volcano.2510:

The debate about gold vs material sink seems mainly to be a microeconomics vs macroeconomics distinction to me.

No, it’s a distinction between between an economic use of the term and an ignorant use of the term.

The forge is, if anything, a material sink – which has the exact opposite effect on inflation and prices as a gold sink. It is not some minor, pedantic difference in terminology.

If you want to be specific about it, you’d think of it as a collection of production functions that in the aggregate create value through the transformation of goods while linking (and thus restraining) the prices of different goods – specifically it holds down the price of high value goods while raising the price of low value commodities that get thrown into the forge, as the two are linked through a production function.

That has 2nd order effects as it induces economic activity around it which is taxed (and sinks gold), but it has a minimal 1st order effect (wine).

Ensign.2189:

A Volcano.2510:

The debate about gold vs material sink seems mainly to be a microeconomics vs macroeconomics distinction to me.

No, it’s a distinction between between an economic use of the term and an ignorant use of the term.

The forge is, if anything, a material sink – which has the exact opposite effect on inflation and prices as a gold sink. It is not some minor, pedantic difference in terminology.

Exactly. If we remove the material sink of the mystic forge and replace it with a gold sink, we end up with alot of items in the economy that nobody wants to buy because he doesnt have any gold.

TL;DR

Removing the MF would be a really bad idea, and have unforseen catastrophic effect on the economy as a whole.

The TP would be filled with a bunch of items no one really wants to buy, (Why would anyone buy lvl 80 rares in bulk anymore?) and because no one is buying them from the TP less gold is being removed from the game (which leads to other thing to horrible to contemplate).

However, I do agree that the MF is primarily a material sink. Whether it’s tossing in rares/exotics for a precursor, upgrading materials, or making a Gift of whatever.
Sure people do buy stuff off the TP to throw in the forge, but that is not a requirement. There are also many others who just craft what they have and toss those into the forge. They aren’t “losing gold” buy not selling it. They just aren’t making gold. (There is a big difference).

It’s like saying you are losing $47 million dollars because you didn’t buy a lottery ticket.

Ensign.2189:

A Volcano.2510:

The debate about gold vs material sink seems mainly to be a microeconomics vs macroeconomics distinction to me.

No, it’s a distinction between between an economic use of the term and an ignorant use of the term.

The forge is, if anything, a material sink – which has the exact opposite effect on inflation and prices as a gold sink. It is not some minor, pedantic difference in terminology.

If you want to be specific about it, you’d think of it as a collection of production functions that in the aggregate create value through the transformation of goods while linking (and thus restraining) the prices of different goods – specifically it holds down the price of high value goods while raising the price of low value commodities that get thrown into the forge, as the two are linked through a production function.

That has 2nd order effects as it induces economic activity around it which is taxed (and sinks gold), but it has a minimal 1st order effect (wine).

You’re ignoring the random set of outcomes. The churn of 4 Rare GS = 1 Rare GS is significant. Its not just linking low and high value items. Its not just a factory its a casino.

…“may the forge be with you”

pdavis.8031:

They aren’t “losing gold” buy not selling it. They just aren’t making gold. (There is a big difference).

It’s like saying you are losing $47 million dollars because you didn’t buy a lottery ticket.

If I craft 50 rares from mats I have gathered, I could either sell them or throw them into the mystic forge, if I throw them into the mystic forge and get nothing for it I’m 50 rares poorer and can’t sell them anymore when I need gold -thus I’m poorer.
But gold sink usually means that gold is drawn from the economy which it isn’t directly in case of the MF.

Ensign.2189:

A Volcano.2510:

The debate about gold vs material sink seems mainly to be a microeconomics vs macroeconomics distinction to me.

No, it’s a distinction between between an economic use of the term and an ignorant use of the term.

The forge is, if anything, a material sink – which has the exact opposite effect on inflation and prices as a gold sink. It is not some minor, pedantic difference in terminology.

If you want to be specific about it, you’d think of it as a collection of production functions that in the aggregate create value through the transformation of goods while linking (and thus restraining) the prices of different goods – specifically it holds down the price of high value goods while raising the price of low value commodities that get thrown into the forge, as the two are linked through a production function.

That has 2nd order effects as it induces economic activity around it which is taxed (and sinks gold), but it has a minimal 1st order effect (wine).

No, I was correct. Maybe read some books on economic theory if you are uncertain about this.

From the perspective of an individual person, the mystic forge is reducing their net worth and they view it as a gold sink as—on an individual level—gold and material value are interchangeable. Which is to say, a given persons items/gold do not control so much of the economy that they cannot (with some exchange fees as a loss, and yes—not if the items are account bound) freely convert from one currency to the other.

But yes, viewed on the economy as a whole, the mystic forge is not a gold sink. It is a material sink. This is more the macroeconomic perspective of things. Using it does not take gold out of the economy.

A Volcano.2510:

Ensign.2189:

A Volcano.2510:

The debate about gold vs material sink seems mainly to be a microeconomics vs macroeconomics distinction to me.

No, it’s a distinction between between an economic use of the term and an ignorant use of the term.

The forge is, if anything, a material sink – which has the exact opposite effect on inflation and prices as a gold sink. It is not some minor, pedantic difference in terminology.

If you want to be specific about it, you’d think of it as a collection of production functions that in the aggregate create value through the transformation of goods while linking (and thus restraining) the prices of different goods – specifically it holds down the price of high value goods while raising the price of low value commodities that get thrown into the forge, as the two are linked through a production function.

That has 2nd order effects as it induces economic activity around it which is taxed (and sinks gold), but it has a minimal 1st order effect (wine).

No, I was correct. Maybe read some books on economic theory if you are uncertain about this.

From the perspective of an individual person, the mystic forge is reducing their net worth and they view it as a gold sink as—on an individual level—gold and material value are interchangeable. Which is to say, a given persons items/gold do not control so much of the economy that they cannot (with some exchange fees as a loss) freely convert from one currency to the other.

But yes, viewed on the economy as a whole, the mystic forge is not a gold sink. It is a material sink. This is more the macroeconomic perspective of things. Using it does not take gold out of the economy.

Or at MOST it’s an indirect gold sink as you lose the vender cost of the items you could have gotten.

It also keeps prices of some items higher, which means more money is taken from the game via Trading Post taxes.

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

Seera.5916:

Wanze.8410:

Cyninja.2954:

People buying massive amounts of rare greatswords to throw in the mf counts as only trading post gold sink? Hmm I doubt that would happen without both.

Both what?

Both the Trading Post and the Mystic Forge.

Without the gambling done in the Mystic Forge to get precursors and other expensive weapons that can drop from the Mystic Forge, would people buy as many level 80 rare and exotic weapons? So wouldn’t the price of rare and exotic level 80 weapons decrease due to less demand? Reducing the amount of gold taken out via Trading Post taxes.

This one gets it.

EDIT:

We can only speculate on what would happen without the TP (though I completely agree with your assumption) but as is, the mf creates a high demand for rares to throw in the mf (and partialy exotics) especially for desired weapon types. Just look at the difference of almost 2 times the price between greatswords and staves vs for example bows and pistols.

This effect also extends to crafting mats and T5 mats, etcetcetc

So assuming the mf blows up, all we need is another material sink for rare greatswords in order for the tp to be as effective a gold sink as it currently is.

Assuming we get the same amount of rng in item removal with no return, sure it could be replaced by another mystic forge type of system.

Honestly, I was not aiming at creating a huge disscussion and we are way off topic anyway. My sentiment was to make OP realize that you can’t just wish away the mystic forge without serious repercussions to the game economy.

How about this:

The mystic forge is:

- a very minimal direct gold sink (items you need from Miyani, sell value of items).
- a minimal → moderate indirect gold sink (effect on prices of items and demand)
- always a huge material sink

and currently an integral part of the ingame economy.

Jana.6831:

pdavis.8031:

They aren’t “losing gold” buy not selling it. They just aren’t making gold. (There is a big difference).

It’s like saying you are losing $47 million dollars because you didn’t buy a lottery ticket.

If I craft 50 rares from mats I have gathered, I could either sell them or throw them into the mystic forge, if I throw them into the mystic forge and get nothing for it I’m 50 rares poorer and can’t sell them anymore when I need gold -thus I’m poorer.
But gold sink usually means that gold is drawn from the economy which it isn’t directly in case of the MF.

Thats one way to look at but. But it hinges on could. A possibility. A choice. You crafted 50 rares, and chose to throw them in the forge instead of selling them. That doesn’t make you poorer. You never gained the money to lose from doing that.
Becoming poorer/losing money implies that you gained money first. Its an item in your inventory that really holds no value until you actually sell it. If I have 100g, and 4 rares. I toss them into the forge. I still have 100g. I didn’t become poorer, as I still have the same amount of gold.

Of course you could be losing money if you are buying the mats to craft in the first place. But crafting from what you’ve gathered buy playing, or using drops, isn’t the same as losing money. It doesn’t cost anything to do it that way.

How many people actually bothered to read that, I’m not asking for the MF and all it’s functions to be gone completely, but rather to be replaced with mechanics spread around the world.

Coulter.2315:

You’re ignoring the random set of outcomes. The churn of 4 Rare GS = 1 Rare GS is significant. Its not just linking low and high value items. Its not just a factory its a casino.

Not ignoring it at all – uncertainty in the output of a production function doesn’t negate its economic impact at all – especially when their activity is on a scale that they are driven to expectations statistically.

Virtually all production in the real world is risky. Farming is your textbook example of production and it is extremely risky – drought, heat waves, ice storms, etc can severely diminish, or even wipe out your crop. It’s still absolutely production when you account for the risks.

A Volcano.2510:

From the perspective of an individual person, the mystic forge is reducing their net worth and they view it as a gold sink as—on an individual level—gold and material value are interchangeable.

‘Gold sink’ and ‘material sink’ are irrelevant concepts on an individual level.

From the perspective of an individual person, the mystic forge is a production function (simple firm) that converts inputs (materials plus some minimal amount of labor) into outputs. The output is uncertain but follows a fixed distribution. Each individual chooses an activity level – that is, how much stuff they wish to throw into the forge.

A rational individual would choose a non-zero activity if and only if their expected value of the output is higher than the input.

The mystic forge will never lower an individual’s ex-ante utility unless they are behaving irrationally – they would simply choose an activity of zero.

Again, gold sinks and material sinks are simply irrelevant on an individual scale; the market is big enough that any given individual has arbitrarily close to zero ability to impact those variables.

Jana.6831:

If I craft 50 rares from mats I have gathered, I could either sell them or throw them into the mystic forge, if I throw them into the mystic forge and get nothing for it I’m 50 rares poorer and can’t sell them anymore when I need gold -thus I’m poorer.

Yes, but your expectation ex-ante was that throwing those rares into the forge would be profitable; that it turned out to lose money ex-post in some particular sample does not make the forge a net destroyer of wealth. On the contrary, you would have only thrown rares into the forge at all if you expected a profit, reinforcing that the forge is, in fact, a net generator of wealth.

But there is a thrill in getting an above average mat promotion amount or a really good exotic. I’ve tracked conversion rates like I’ve tracked salvage rates and understand what probability means and know when it’s a foolish attempt or not. Yes it’s a risk.

What you are asking for Kite is the removal of that risk. Where is the thrill of converting 1250 green planks into 500 soft ones due to luck for a 10 gold payday (assuming you bought the green planks or logs)? It cost me skill points that I’m not using but accumulating at a outrageous rate.

My point of using the MF is to make gold, not freely sink mats or create mats for my use. Why would I want to spend gold?

pdavis.8031:

Thats one way to look at but. But it hinges on could. A possibility. A choice. You crafted 50 rares, and chose to throw them in the forge instead of selling them. That doesn’t make you poorer. You never gained the money to lose from doing that.
Becoming poorer/losing money implies that you gained money first. Its an item in your inventory that really holds no value until you actually sell it. If I have 100g, and 4 rares. I toss them into the forge. I still have 100g. I didn’t become poorer, as I still have the same amount of gold.

Of course you could be losing money if you are buying the mats to craft in the first place. But crafting from what you’ve gathered buy playing, or using drops, isn’t the same as losing money. It doesn’t cost anything to do it that way.

It does – whatever you own, if you don’t have it anymore you own less potential money (as you could sell it) – it’s not really “one way to look at it” – it’s just a fact. Even if you take the stuff you gathered you could’ve sold it and make money with it – people often forget that. Or: if you need it you don’t need to buy it as you still have it, thus you’re saving money – even stuff gathered has got the same value like the stuff on TP.

Ensign.2189:

Yes, but your expectation ex-ante was that throwing those rares into the forge would be profitable; that it turned out to lose money ex-post in some particular sample does not make the forge a net destroyer of wealth. On the contrary, you would have only thrown rares into the forge at all if you expected a profit, reinforcing that the forge is, in fact, a net generator of wealth.

Expectation and reality are two different things. If throwing x yellows into the forge which then turn into y exotics which you then again throw into the MF – often leaves you with nothing (a friend just did this with 750 yellow GS).

Kite.2510:

How many people actually bothered to read that, I’m not asking for the MF and all it’s functions to be gone completely, but rather to be replaced with mechanics spread around the world.

But any changes to the Mystic Forge would affect the economy. And unless you understand the possible outcomes of the change over the long term, then you can’t say whether the changes would be for the better or not.

And gold sink vs not gold sink is very important to the economy.

Kite.2510:

How many people actually bothered to read that, I’m not asking for the MF and all it’s functions to be gone completely, but rather to be replaced with mechanics spread around the world.

It seems your thread got a bit derailed by an off topic argument and as I was rather active in that argument, I apologize.
Getting back at your initial suggestion, I fail to see point of it.

First you are complaining that you have to talk to an npc, exchange one currency into others and then use the forge. Your solution is to spread that service to several npcs all over Tyria?

Thanks but no. I paid gems to use the Royal Terrace because it was all the services i frequently use in close proximity. I dont want to have to to load into one map somewhere in Orr in order to use a function that currently is covered by the forge and then have to wp into bloodtide coast to use another function.

@Seera, many have pointed out that it’s a mat sink, not a gold sink. Where salvage gives us basic mats from gear the MF wholesale removes it and maybe gives us something of higher value, gold or usefulness wise.

The gold sink is only in play on the TP if we are buying gear to throw into or sell what we get out of the Mystic Forge.

Wanze.8410:

Kite.2510:

How many people actually bothered to read that, I’m not asking for the MF and all it’s functions to be gone completely, but rather to be replaced with mechanics spread around the world.

It seems your thread got a bit derailed by an off topic argument and as I was rather active in that argument, I apologize.
Getting back at your initial suggestion, I fail to see point of it.

First you are complaining that you have to talk to an npc, exchange one currency into others and then use the forge. Your solution is to spread that service to several npcs all over Tyria?

Thanks but no. I paid gems to use the Royal Terrace because it was all the services i frequently use in close proximity. I dont want to have to to load into one map somewhere in Orr in order to use a function that currently is covered by the forge and then have to wp into bloodtide coast to use another function.

I believe that we are a bit spoiled.
In RPGs, going to specific places to find some legendary blacksmith is usually the norm.

Besides, I only mentioned Orr as the final step to get your legendary weapon (you don’t craft those often, do you?), and with that I also mention it shouldn’t need all those gifts and combination pyramids. All you should have to do is find a precursor, pay up-front the necessary gold or skill points, have the necessary achievements completed that would otherwise give you gifts.
As for your VIP lunge. If they are going to implement this, I believe they would also have a version of those NPCs for those who paid gems to have things closse.

Personally I would rather have to travel to Labyrinthine Cliffs to have a Bazaar merchant directly exchange my mats with a higher tier for some gold and skill points payment up front, than have to look at guides and wikis on how to deal with all those combination pyramids.
It’s needlessly complicated and confusing to newcomers.

Kite.2510:

I believe that we are a bit spoiled.
In RPGs, going to specific places to find some legendary blacksmith is usually the norm.
Personally I would rather have to travel to Labyrinthine Cliffs to have a Bazaar merchant directly exchange my mats with a higher tier for some gold and skill points payment up front, than have to look at guides and wikis on how to deal with all those combination pyramids.
It’s needlessly complicated and confusing to newcomers.

So having to travel to a legendary blacksmith or a merchant in the cliffs is ok for you because its rpg but finding out which combinations work without using guides or wikis is not?

Behellagh.1468:

@Seera, many have pointed out that it’s a mat sink, not a gold sink. Where salvage gives us basic mats from gear the MF wholesale removes it and maybe gives us something of higher value, gold or usefulness wise.

The gold sink is only in play on the TP if we are buying gear to throw into or sell what we get out of the Mystic Forge.

And many have disagreed with that assessment.

I agree that it’s not a gold sink. But others didn’t.

The biggest problem with the mystic toilet is that the RNG system is horrid.

Just take the average drop rate of X item and make the mats required to get that item on average the exact cost to guarantee getting it. Seriously, just make them recipes. Still a gold sink, but less tedious and annoying.

Also, I have had 32 flushes in a row and not a single Mystic Clover before… yeah, GJ making sure there is always a chance to make your players feel cheated and hate this game’s grind.

Kite.2510:

Wanze.8410:

Kite.2510:

How many people actually bothered to read that, I’m not asking for the MF and all it’s functions to be gone completely, but rather to be replaced with mechanics spread around the world.

It seems your thread got a bit derailed by an off topic argument and as I was rather active in that argument, I apologize.
Getting back at your initial suggestion, I fail to see point of it.

First you are complaining that you have to talk to an npc, exchange one currency into others and then use the forge. Your solution is to spread that service to several npcs all over Tyria?

Thanks but no. I paid gems to use the Royal Terrace because it was all the services i frequently use in close proximity. I dont want to have to to load into one map somewhere in Orr in order to use a function that currently is covered by the forge and then have to wp into bloodtide coast to use another function.

I believe that we are a bit spoiled.
In RPGs, going to specific places to find some legendary blacksmith is usually the norm.

Besides, I only mentioned Orr as the final step to get your legendary weapon (you don’t craft those often, do you?), and with that I also mention it shouldn’t need all those gifts and combination pyramids. All you should have to do is find a precursor, pay up-front the necessary gold or skill points, have the necessary achievements completed that would otherwise give you gifts.
As for your VIP lunge. If they are going to implement this, I believe they would also have a version of those NPCs for those who paid gems to have things closse.

Personally I would rather have to travel to Labyrinthine Cliffs to have a Bazaar merchant directly exchange my mats with a higher tier for some gold and skill points payment up front, than have to look at guides and wikis on how to deal with all those combination pyramids.
It’s needlessly complicated and confusing to newcomers.

Spoiled or not, this is not the 90s/00s where you had to read up on which super rare blacksmith at location xyz has your recepie or the ability to craft item X. Essentiall forcing people to walk all the way there, which with the wp system ends up being just a couple of more loading screens anyway.

Having a central location for the mf is certainly less immersive, but the game already is borderline f2p with dozens of currencies, multitude of different games modes, time limited content on regular basis. A casual newcommer is already overwhelmed. No reason to add to that remote locations he most likely would have to read up on anyway. Might as well read up on how the mf works.

As Wanze pointed out, many are willing to pay for the convenience of having easy access to every thing required. It makes the entire craft-, mf-, vendor- and inventory managing a lot less of a hassle.

There are many things norm in other rpgs/mmos, GW2 has broken with quite a few. Happy this was one of them. (also you information is dated. most modern MMOs give centralized or easy access to these type of elements simply because of more mainstream casual players)