I was in Kessex Hills working on my dailies/leveling a low level toon when map chat exploded with people yelling at others because they weren’t letting an event fail (I.E. doing the event). I jump in, totally not sure what’s going on and pick a fight with the loudest and rudest person in map chat, as time goes on people explain why they want the event to fail but are still unforgiving of people doing the event.
While I understand that certain events give more rewards than others, this doesn’t really seem to be right. Having the rewards improved so much, that people are purposely failing the events to trigger is a problem. Having the rewards improved so much that people are openly and as a group attacking the individuals who are doing the events (as intended) is a Really big problem.
One of the comments in Map chat was that this is common practice in Orr as well, got me kind of curious… Is this mob mentality really accepted into the PvE meta? Or was this just an isolated incidence of a rotten batch of apples?
~Background information (I wvw full time, but have recently been branching out so this was a serious shocker to me. However I suppose I want to know if it’s something I’ll just have to get used to or ignore. ) Don’t think it matters because of MegaServer but I"m on SBI.
“A conquered people will always resist you,
Edair. But allies-allies will fight by your side”~Cobiah Mariner
It’s not common, no. There is something of a trend of people finding specific events that they want to fail for better rewards and getting rather aggressive about it, however. Both of such prominent events I’ve been around for were patched pretty quickly.
I would take a stab that it’s probably the same crowd, moved to another location after the last one was patched.
Well if the game was right a Fail should mean no reward at all… Not sure why it is set up that a fail is better then success??? I always try to do my best I hate failing at stuff…
It’s basic MMO player mentality. (Or basic human mentality, really.) People will always gravitate to the easiest, most profitable way of doing something. If that way happens to be deliberately failing an event that produces a large amount of Champions so the event respawns quickly, then that’s exactly what they will do.
I don’t feel like getting into a huge debate about it now, so I’ll just end this post with the following:
1. If you want to complete the event, go ahead and complete it. ANet will never, ever ban you for completing game content the way it was intended to be played.
2. Don’t be a troll. Completing the event once for the experience is fine. Even completing it multiple times if you’re in the area is fine. Completing it multiple times while mocking and insulting the players who want to farm the Champions is not fine. If you’re completing the events purely to spite the farmers, you’ve gone too far. Likewise, if you’re a farmer and you’re deliberately not completing the event when a player needs to complete it for a trait/Personal Story, you’ve also gone too far.
Well if the game was right a Fail should mean no reward at all… Not sure why it is set up that a fail is better then success??? I always try to do my best I hate failing at stuff…
Basically, it’s a double-edged design sword. Some events spawn a lot of mobs (especially Champions) if there are a ton of players present to scale it way up.
Normally, completing such an event means you kill whatever mobs spawn and then you move on to the next event. But some events end up with variations on: You can let the huge swarm of mobs kill any relevant NPCs (that would cause the event to succeed) and then kill the mobs after.
These events typically have a short reset timer for when they are “failed.” The double-edged part is because this is a great design choice in theory! If players fail, they quickly get another chance to succeed.
But then on the other stabby end, it gives players the opportunity to get rewards from killing some mobs, purposefully failing, and then repeating the process over and over. The design choice is not taking into account the manipulative organization of large groups of players to reap as many rewards as possible.
Essentially, the design choice is great for game design, but it isn’t designed to handle organized manipulation from the playerbase.
I’ve seen this a lot leveling alts in Kessex lately. Pretty much the mindset is the loot is better if you let it fail since you get more champion enemy spawns so you get more bags. Typical loot farming mindset.
I do think people act obnoxiously rude to people that may not know better. It is a low level zone after all. Since most of the farming herds moved out the starter zones new players are not subjected to that mindset until that zone really.
Either way if you are there before others and want to complete the event then go ahead. People will give you heat but that is just the aspect of the problem. In reality its just a side effect to a bigger issue that is hard to address properly it feels.
What happened to just being nice and explaining to people? I dunno. Its a strange breed of MMO player.
Well if the game was right a Fail should mean no reward at all… Not sure why it is set up that a fail is better then success??? I always try to do my best I hate failing at stuff…
Basically, it’s a double-edged design sword. Some events spawn a lot of mobs (especially Champions) if there are a ton of players present to scale it way up.
Normally, completing such an event means you kill whatever mobs spawn and then you move on to the next event. But some events end up with variations on: You can let the huge swarm of mobs kill any relevant NPCs (that would cause the event to succeed) and then kill the mobs after.
These events typically have a short reset timer for when they are “failed.” The double-edged part is because this is a great design choice in theory! If players fail, they quickly get another chance to succeed.
But then on the other stabby end, it gives players the opportunity to get rewards from killing some mobs, purposefully failing, and then repeating the process over and over. The design choice is not taking into account the manipulative organization of large groups of players to reap as many rewards as possible.
Essentially, the design choice is great for game design, but it isn’t designed to handle organized manipulation from the playerbase.
So basically they have designed a Exploit if what I get from reading what you put here?? No other game that I have played does any one gain from Failing… Seem to me to be a bad idea to reward people that purposely fail… Failing should be just that failing and failing to me means no gain or reward… But that is just how I think others may not think the same… I know the first time I saw I got exp from a failed event I told my girl friend this was stupid….
So basically they have designed a Exploit if what I get from reading what you put here?? No other game that I have played does any one gain from Failing… Seem to me to be a bad idea to reward people that purposely fail… Failing should be just that failing and failing to me means no gain or reward… But that is just how I think others may not think the same… I know the first time I saw I got exp from a failed event I told my girl friend this was stupid….
Sort of. I wouldn’t say they have “designed an exploit,” but they designed in such a way that exploitation is possible. It’s not the most obvious of loopholes, unless you’ve already seen it happen.
The beauty of it (or ugliness I guess, depending on how you feel about it) is that the rewards people are getting are not technically from failing the event. The rewards are from killing mobs during the event and getting rewards from those mobs. And then people fail the event, so that it will repeat, giving them access to those same mobs again.
It is the timer in-between failure/reset that gives them room to take advantage of the system. If every failed event took something like 20 minutes minimum in-between failures, then this issue wouldn’t occur at all (the wait would be too long for people to take advantage of it).
But that’s where the “good game design practice” part comes in; giving people a chance to try again within minutes means the game is more forgiving of their failure. It just happens to also be exploitable because the game can’t tell the difference between unintended failure (the thing it’s trying to be forgiving of) and intended failure (the exploitation of the system).
I was in Kessex Hills working on my dailies/leveling a low level toon when map chat exploded with people yelling at others because they weren’t letting an event fail (I.E. doing the event). I jump in, totally not sure what’s going on and pick a fight with the loudest and rudest person in map chat, as time goes on people explain why they want the event to fail but are still unforgiving of people doing the event.
While I understand that certain events give more rewards than others, this doesn’t really seem to be right. Having the rewards improved so much, that people are purposely failing the events to trigger is a problem. Having the rewards improved so much that people are openly and as a group attacking the individuals who are doing the events (as intended) is a Really big problem.
One of the comments in Map chat was that this is common practice in Orr as well, got me kind of curious… Is this mob mentality really accepted into the PvE meta? Or was this just an isolated incidence of a rotten batch of apples?
~Background information (I wvw full time, but have recently been branching out so this was a serious shocker to me. However I suppose I want to know if it’s something I’ll just have to get used to or ignore. ) Don’t think it matters because of MegaServer but I"m on SBI.
An Anet rep has stated that failing an event on purpose in order to farm mobs is every bit as acceptable as completing the event.
What is not acceptable is being abusive toward others. In situations where conflict has escalated to abuse between event fail farmers and event completers Anet has altered the events to prevent the conflict.
This happens on various maps until the said events are nerfed. Generally people are farming champ boxes & bags. The usual response to anyone trying to complete events is to head to another instance.
The behavior associated with failed events (not by all) is the reason why events are nerfed and starting to wonder if it ties into the nerfing of loot….
Well if the game was right a Fail should mean no reward at all… Not sure why it is set up that a fail is better then success??? I always try to do my best I hate failing at stuff…
Basically, it’s a double-edged design sword. Some events spawn a lot of mobs (especially Champions) if there are a ton of players present to scale it way up.
Normally, completing such an event means you kill whatever mobs spawn and then you move on to the next event. But some events end up with variations on: You can let the huge swarm of mobs kill any relevant NPCs (that would cause the event to succeed) and then kill the mobs after.
These events typically have a short reset timer for when they are “failed.” The double-edged part is because this is a great design choice in theory! If players fail, they quickly get another chance to succeed.
But then on the other stabby end, it gives players the opportunity to get rewards from killing some mobs, purposefully failing, and then repeating the process over and over. The design choice is not taking into account the manipulative organization of large groups of players to reap as many rewards as possible.
Essentially, the design choice is great for game design, but it isn’t designed to handle organized manipulation from the playerbase.
the basic problem is that they designed events wrong. They make most of the reward be based on the monsters you kill during the event, as well, the better the map is doing, the less events/conflict there is.
Now lets say people doing well on the map (succeeding events) caused a fighting pit/arena type area (or areas) to be well stocked with powerful monsters and non stop events, or special monsters with higher, or special drop rates. Perhaps if winning all the temples spawned special profitable events, etc. (there is a very light version of this with elementals spawning, but no events tied to them, and only a few people can profit off this, as well as drop rates being in general poor)
suddenly people would not be interested in having the map fall into disrepair, and failing events again and again would always be a poor choice.
basically the reward design for events encourages failure in many cases, so people fail them.
There ya go ANET.. another fire to put out.. another Failtrain event exposed, another area to toxify and serve up with ya coffee.. fancy an exploit muffin with that??.
Sure it will get a nerfbat, but those same players have likely already sniffed the next one out ready to jump to when their loot bags dry up in Kessex.
Wonder how long before the anti-failtrain moves in and the soup begins to curdle once more.. happy times!
I was in Kessex Hills working on my dailies/leveling a low level toon when map chat exploded with people yelling at others because they weren’t letting an event fail (I.E. doing the event). I jump in, totally not sure what’s going on and pick a fight with the loudest and rudest person in map chat, as time goes on people explain why they want the event to fail but are still unforgiving of people doing the event.
While I understand that certain events give more rewards than others, this doesn’t really seem to be right. Having the rewards improved so much, that people are purposely failing the events to trigger is a problem. Having the rewards improved so much that people are openly and as a group attacking the individuals who are doing the events (as intended) is a Really big problem.
One of the comments in Map chat was that this is common practice in Orr as well, got me kind of curious… Is this mob mentality really accepted into the PvE meta? Or was this just an isolated incidence of a rotten batch of apples?
~Background information (I wvw full time, but have recently been branching out so this was a serious shocker to me. However I suppose I want to know if it’s something I’ll just have to get used to or ignore. ) Don’t think it matters because of MegaServer but I"m on SBI.
An Anet rep has stated that failing an event on purpose in order to farm mobs is every bit as acceptable as completing the event.
What is not acceptable is being abusive toward others. In situations where conflict has escalated to abuse between event fail farmers and event completers Anet has altered the events to prevent the conflict.
No they did not say it is every bit as acceptable.
They said that everyone has the right to play the way they want unless it interferes with those playing the game the way it was designed to be played. Which is an important distinction to make and one fail train farmers seem oblivious to. They argument always stops at the “play the way you want” part and skips the rest.
They also said that things that cause toxicity (really really starting to hate that word) is super not okay. Which fail farming inevitably does.
Kessex is the worst place for that.
It’s the toxifier event leading up to the alchemist.
If it fails, you have to break the morale of the toxified Hyleks.
If it succedes, it goes right to the alchemist.
So people fail it on purpose for more champion drops.
And will literally be complete kittenbags to players whom are just there for the first time, and tooling around playing the game as they want to.
I think if the toxifier event fails, it should stop the whole kitten chain. Put some of those idiots in their place. xD
I play Fort Aspenwood, I lead the 8 member guild, Sacred Storm [Strm] I am Jason Goes Mental.
I don’t raid, I barely fractal, and I suck beyond words at PvP and WvW.
But I try, and that’s what counts.
Kessex is the worst place for that.
It’s the toxifier event leading up to the alchemist.
If it fails, you have to break the morale of the toxified Hyleks.
If it succedes, it goes right to the alchemist.
So people fail it on purpose for more champion drops.
And will literally be complete kittenbags to players whom are just there for the first time, and tooling around playing the game as they want to.
I think if the toxifier event fails, it should stop the whole kitten chain. Put some of those idiots in their place. xD
That is the fire fighting way to deal with it.. but history has proven in GW2 that the fires just start up again in another location.
ANET are obviously happy for the game to be exploited time and time again by these players otherwise they would do what other MMO’s do when players try to exploit flaws within the game design/mechanics – they root the problem out at its core.
many peoples solutions is just to destroy the retries, but to be honest thats a bad solution. Being able to retry fairly easily flows wellm the problem is the incentives to win and game flow is better when you fail.
I’ve never seen any mass rage in Kessex over the Toxic Alchemist event, as the amount of champions that spawn on event fail is horribly low (like 2-3 champs, with mostly veterans or elites).
At most I’ve seen a few people just mention/ask that toxifiers not be destroyed to allow champ spawns, but I’ve never seen any serious unpleasantness, and I spend a lot of time in kessex
Resident smug Englishman on the NA servers, just because.
I was in Kessex Hills working on my dailies/leveling a low level toon when map chat exploded with people yelling at others because they weren’t letting an event fail (I.E. doing the event). I jump in, totally not sure what’s going on and pick a fight with the loudest and rudest person in map chat, as time goes on people explain why they want the event to fail but are still unforgiving of people doing the event.
While I understand that certain events give more rewards than others, this doesn’t really seem to be right. Having the rewards improved so much, that people are purposely failing the events to trigger is a problem. Having the rewards improved so much that people are openly and as a group attacking the individuals who are doing the events (as intended) is a Really big problem.
One of the comments in Map chat was that this is common practice in Orr as well, got me kind of curious… Is this mob mentality really accepted into the PvE meta? Or was this just an isolated incidence of a rotten batch of apples?
~Background information (I wvw full time, but have recently been branching out so this was a serious shocker to me. However I suppose I want to know if it’s something I’ll just have to get used to or ignore. ) Don’t think it matters because of MegaServer but I"m on SBI.
An Anet rep has stated that failing an event on purpose in order to farm mobs is every bit as acceptable as completing the event.
What is not acceptable is being abusive toward others. In situations where conflict has escalated to abuse between event fail farmers and event completers Anet has altered the events to prevent the conflict.
No they did not say it is every bit as acceptable.
They said that everyone has the right to play the way they want unless it interferes with those playing the game the way it was designed to be played. Which is an important distinction to make and one fail train farmers seem oblivious to. They argument always stops at the “play the way you want” part and skips the rest.
They also said that things that cause toxicity (really really starting to hate that word) is super not okay. Which fail farming inevitably does.
It is interesting to note that the dev’s quote does not in fact include the bolded section of your claim.
Chris Cleary.8017:
“There are really two sides to this, and when it comes down to it, you are both right – and you are both wrong. Both sides have the right to complete the task that they set out to do (completing or not completing).
Challenging another player’s play style is the issue here, and since this revolved around an event that was designed to be completed, it is being changed so that the original design of the event can be carried out.
When something in the game (such as this event) changes negatively as this has, we need to step in and remediate the toxicity. The byproduct of this change happens to be that a champion farm is being slowed, but since that was the originating factor for the toxicity, it’s unavoidable.
I encourage players to remember that not everyone has the same goals when they play, and sometimes they will clash.”
So basically they have designed a Exploit if what I get from reading what you put here?? No other game that I have played does any one gain from Failing… Seem to me to be a bad idea to reward people that purposely fail… Failing should be just that failing and failing to me means no gain or reward… But that is just how I think others may not think the same… I know the first time I saw I got exp from a failed event I told my girl friend this was stupid….
Sort of. I wouldn’t say they have “designed an exploit,” but they designed in such a way that exploitation is possible. It’s not the most obvious of loopholes, unless you’ve already seen it happen.
The beauty of it (or ugliness I guess, depending on how you feel about it) is that the rewards people are getting are not technically from failing the event. The rewards are from killing mobs during the event and getting rewards from those mobs. And then people fail the event, so that it will repeat, giving them access to those same mobs again.
It is the timer in-between failure/reset that gives them room to take advantage of the system. If every failed event took something like 20 minutes minimum in-between failures, then this issue wouldn’t occur at all (the wait would be too long for people to take advantage of it).
But that’s where the “good game design practice” part comes in; giving people a chance to try again within minutes means the game is more forgiving of their failure. It just happens to also be exploitable because the game can’t tell the difference between unintended failure (the thing it’s trying to be forgiving of) and intended failure (the exploitation of the system).
Also, several event chains have branches based on an event failing or succeeding. Sometimes the chances for loot are better along the fail branch due to the number of champs, etc that spawn in it.
Also, several event chains have branches based on an event failing or succeeding. Sometimes the chances for loot are better along the fail branch due to the number of champs, etc that spawn in it.
True, good point. Those events I can’t make any excuse for. :P Other than basic human error in design.
Seems that more of the rewards should come from completing the event, rather than drops during it. Presently the copper/karma/XP rewards are so small they’re not even a factor.
The “mentality” has been the bane of MMO’s for a very long time now. It insinuatesand pervades dungeon runs, PvP and group events of various kinds.
It’s poison in regards to fun and escapism because it turns the player activities into process and formula, little factories of output: gold, XP, karma, keys, etc.
When did that become engaging gameplay?
I’m not denying or even disagreeing that many players love the thrill of min/maxing, optimizing gains and all that…I just wish that not every MMO under the sun ended up down that same street.
It’s not common, no. There is something of a trend of people finding specific events that they want to fail for better rewards and getting rather aggressive about it, however. Both of such prominent events I’ve been around for were patched pretty quickly.
I would take a stab that it’s probably the same crowd, moved to another location after the last one was patched.
I’d argue it being a different crowd. This has been happening right alongside of the other instances of volatile fail-farming; it just hadn’t been brought to light much.
But, now that it has, look for it to be nerfed and the trolls to move on to the next area.
I was in Kessex Hills last night and I just peeked in now. I didn’t see any of that nonsense going on, but hey, I’m sure it happens. When it does, click the name of the person or the char itself, then right click on that char’s image to get options that include “Report.” Click “Report” and choose “Verbal abuse.” A GM will see your report right away and investigate it as soon as possible. This is for name calling, aggressive or offensive, comments, etc.
As in many cases, issues can crop up not with what is being said, but how it’s being said. If someone is being abusive, please report him or her to help make the game better for everyone. Thanks!
I was in Kessex Hills working on my dailies/leveling a low level toon when map chat exploded with people yelling at others because they weren’t letting an event fail (I.E. doing the event). I jump in, totally not sure what’s going on and pick a fight with the loudest and rudest person in map chat, as time goes on people explain why they want the event to fail but are still unforgiving of people doing the event.
While I understand that certain events give more rewards than others, this doesn’t really seem to be right. Having the rewards improved so much, that people are purposely failing the events to trigger is a problem. Having the rewards improved so much that people are openly and as a group attacking the individuals who are doing the events (as intended) is a Really big problem.
One of the comments in Map chat was that this is common practice in Orr as well, got me kind of curious… Is this mob mentality really accepted into the PvE meta? Or was this just an isolated incidence of a rotten batch of apples?
~Background information (I wvw full time, but have recently been branching out so this was a serious shocker to me. However I suppose I want to know if it’s something I’ll just have to get used to or ignore. ) Don’t think it matters because of MegaServer but I"m on SBI.
An Anet rep has stated that failing an event on purpose in order to farm mobs is every bit as acceptable as completing the event.
What is not acceptable is being abusive toward others. In situations where conflict has escalated to abuse between event fail farmers and event completers Anet has altered the events to prevent the conflict.
No they did not say it is every bit as acceptable.
They said that everyone has the right to play the way they want unless it interferes with those playing the game the way it was designed to be played. Which is an important distinction to make and one fail train farmers seem oblivious to. They argument always stops at the “play the way you want” part and skips the rest.
They also said that things that cause toxicity (really really starting to hate that word) is super not okay. Which fail farming inevitably does.
It is interesting to note that the dev’s quote does not in fact include the bolded section of your claim.
Chris Cleary.8017:
“There are really two sides to this, and when it comes down to it, you are both right – and you are both wrong. Both sides have the right to complete the task that they set out to do (completing or not completing).
Challenging another player’s play style is the issue here, and since this revolved around an event that was designed to be completed, it is being changed so that the original design of the event can be carried out.
When something in the game (such as this event) changes negatively as this has, we need to step in and remediate the toxicity. The byproduct of this change happens to be that a champion farm is being slowed, but since that was the originating factor for the toxicity, it’s unavoidable.
I encourage players to remember that not everyone has the same goals when they play, and sometimes they will clash.”
I was paraphrasing. The key part is this..
“Challenging another player’s play style is the issue here, and since this revolved around an event that was designed to be completed, "
And this
“it is being changed so that the original design of the event can be carried out.”
It’s inferred that you can play the way you want unless it interferes with people playing the game as it was designed. If they were okay with people fail farming they wouldn’t constantly change events so they can’t be farmed, would they?
I was in Kessex Hills working on my dailies/leveling a low level toon when map chat exploded with people yelling at others because they weren’t letting an event fail (I.E. doing the event). I jump in, totally not sure what’s going on and pick a fight with the loudest and rudest person in map chat, as time goes on people explain why they want the event to fail but are still unforgiving of people doing the event.
While I understand that certain events give more rewards than others, this doesn’t really seem to be right. Having the rewards improved so much, that people are purposely failing the events to trigger is a problem. Having the rewards improved so much that people are openly and as a group attacking the individuals who are doing the events (as intended) is a Really big problem.
One of the comments in Map chat was that this is common practice in Orr as well, got me kind of curious… Is this mob mentality really accepted into the PvE meta? Or was this just an isolated incidence of a rotten batch of apples?
~Background information (I wvw full time, but have recently been branching out so this was a serious shocker to me. However I suppose I want to know if it’s something I’ll just have to get used to or ignore. ) Don’t think it matters because of MegaServer but I"m on SBI.
An Anet rep has stated that failing an event on purpose in order to farm mobs is every bit as acceptable as completing the event.
What is not acceptable is being abusive toward others. In situations where conflict has escalated to abuse between event fail farmers and event completers Anet has altered the events to prevent the conflict.
No they did not say it is every bit as acceptable.
They said that everyone has the right to play the way they want unless it interferes with those playing the game the way it was designed to be played. Which is an important distinction to make and one fail train farmers seem oblivious to. They argument always stops at the “play the way you want” part and skips the rest.
They also said that things that cause toxicity (really really starting to hate that word) is super not okay. Which fail farming inevitably does.
It is interesting to note that the dev’s quote does not in fact include the bolded section of your claim.
Chris Cleary.8017:
“There are really two sides to this, and when it comes down to it, you are both right – and you are both wrong. Both sides have the right to complete the task that they set out to do (completing or not completing).
Challenging another player’s play style is the issue here, and since this revolved around an event that was designed to be completed, it is being changed so that the original design of the event can be carried out.
When something in the game (such as this event) changes negatively as this has, we need to step in and remediate the toxicity. The byproduct of this change happens to be that a champion farm is being slowed, but since that was the originating factor for the toxicity, it’s unavoidable.
I encourage players to remember that not everyone has the same goals when they play, and sometimes they will clash.”
That post just makes me laugh so loud… it basically says we have no need to ever complete any events in GW2, in fact we now only need 1 event where everyone can crowd in to fail it and constantly reset it for the entire life of the game.. no need for any further content, no need for anything other than a failed event mechanic that allows the reward system to be perversely exploited forever just so long as we all agree to be nice and get along .. the non failtrainer can happily go count butterflies and wabbits, while the “must fail for lootz” players happily crunch#1112111 until mom calls for dinner, then jump straight back into the phatlootz action once you’ve downed ya pudding.
Gee I wish RL had the same rewards for failing things forever… I mean if GW2 fails, no worries all employees will receive an gigantic payrise, a 4 week cruise holiday and a new car of your choice for doing such a good job… when the mood takes you begin making copies of the coding and relabel it GW3.. Rinse repeat every 2 yrs (even less if you can improve on the failtime/reward mechanisms… job done.. failure wins !
If ANET cannot see just how utterly ridiculous that whole statement makes their Openworld MMO look, then .. well it is what it is I guess.
I was in Kessex Hills last night and I just peeked in now. I didn’t see any of that nonsense going on, but hey, I’m sure it happens. When it does, click the name of the person or the char itself, then right click on that char’s image to get options that include “Report.” Click “Report” and choose “Verbal abuse.” A GM will see your report right away and investigate it as soon as possible. This is for name calling, aggressive or offensive, comments, etc.
As in many cases, issues can crop up not with what is being said, but how it’s being said. If someone is being abusive, please report him or her to help make the game better for everyone. Thanks!
That may well be because the latest event(s) to start peaking in attendance have only just started to surface and the level of abuse is likely smaller thus far.. give it a few days .. I am sure your metrics have already started to ripen though…
I was in Kessex Hills working on my dailies/leveling a low level toon when map chat exploded with people yelling at others because they weren’t letting an event fail (I.E. doing the event). I jump in, totally not sure what’s going on and pick a fight with the loudest and rudest person in map chat, as time goes on people explain why they want the event to fail but are still unforgiving of people doing the event.
While I understand that certain events give more rewards than others, this doesn’t really seem to be right. Having the rewards improved so much, that people are purposely failing the events to trigger is a problem. Having the rewards improved so much that people are openly and as a group attacking the individuals who are doing the events (as intended) is a Really big problem.
One of the comments in Map chat was that this is common practice in Orr as well, got me kind of curious… Is this mob mentality really accepted into the PvE meta? Or was this just an isolated incidence of a rotten batch of apples?
~Background information (I wvw full time, but have recently been branching out so this was a serious shocker to me. However I suppose I want to know if it’s something I’ll just have to get used to or ignore. ) Don’t think it matters because of MegaServer but I"m on SBI.
An Anet rep has stated that failing an event on purpose in order to farm mobs is every bit as acceptable as completing the event.
What is not acceptable is being abusive toward others. In situations where conflict has escalated to abuse between event fail farmers and event completers Anet has altered the events to prevent the conflict.
No they did not say it is every bit as acceptable.
They said that everyone has the right to play the way they want unless it interferes with those playing the game the way it was designed to be played. Which is an important distinction to make and one fail train farmers seem oblivious to. They argument always stops at the “play the way you want” part and skips the rest.
They also said that things that cause toxicity (really really starting to hate that word) is super not okay. Which fail farming inevitably does.
It is interesting to note that the dev’s quote does not in fact include the bolded section of your claim.
Chris Cleary.8017:
“There are really two sides to this, and when it comes down to it, you are both right – and you are both wrong. Both sides have the right to complete the task that they set out to do (completing or not completing).
Challenging another player’s play style is the issue here, and since this revolved around an event that was designed to be completed, it is being changed so that the original design of the event can be carried out.
When something in the game (such as this event) changes negatively as this has, we need to step in and remediate the toxicity. The byproduct of this change happens to be that a champion farm is being slowed, but since that was the originating factor for the toxicity, it’s unavoidable.
I encourage players to remember that not everyone has the same goals when they play, and sometimes they will clash.”
I was paraphrasing. The key part is this..
“Challenging another player’s play style is the issue here, and since this revolved around an event that was designed to be completed, "
And this
“it is being changed so that the original design of the event can be carried out.”
It’s inferred that you can play the way you want unless it interferes with people playing the game as it was designed. If they were okay with people fail farming they wouldn’t constantly change events so they can’t be farmed, would they?
“Paraphrasing,” and, “inferred,” in this case mean misrepresenting what was stated. Note that the reason given for changing the events is toxicity not failing events.
I’m honestly surprised that Arena Net hasn’t removed champ boxes from scaled-event champs… or just replace them all with elites instead. Event rewards (in PvE) need some sort of overhaul where actually completing an event is very rewarding in itself- perhaps better rewards for completing event chains.
I don’t mind the odd champ box here and there and it would be a shame to remove champ boxes in this scenario, but history repeats itself with toxic and volatile fail-event farming.
You let it fail to spawn champs in the next event assuming you have enough people. Really really easy to make it succeed though. What’s different about this farm is that even if you fail that one event, the chain of events still progresses.
Most events that create this toxicity end up having a ‘’fail’ restart of under 5 – 10 minutes, and the person that suggested 20 doesn’t quite get that even that amount of time between restarts is insufficient. Simple solution is to have all restarts on fail be a minimum of 1 hour; 60 minutes might sound like a lot, but it gives plenty of time to do something else while waiting for the event to restart, you can’t realistically repeat the event in a reasonable time frame but it still allows for event completion. Or you could just go the route of improved rewards for success/completion.
Most events that create this toxicity end up having a ‘’fail’ restart of under 5 – 10 minutes, and the person that suggested 20 doesn’t quite get that even that amount of time between restarts is insufficient. Simple solution is to have all restarts on fail be a minimum of 1 hour; 60 minutes might sound like a lot, but it gives plenty of time to do something else while waiting for the event to restart, you can’t realistically repeat the event in a reasonable time frame but it still allows for event completion. Or you could just go the route of improved rewards for success/completion.
I wasn’t meaning to suggest that 20 minutes is a magic number for avoiding the problem. Merely that a large enough period of time in-between (whatever that may be) would dissuade people from failing.
But yes, I largely agree that doing so isn’t any sort of real solution to the problem. It’s just a band-aid deterrent.
It is interesting to note that the dev’s quote does not in fact include the bolded section of your claim.
Chris Cleary.8017:
“There are really two sides to this, and when it comes down to it, you are both right – and you are both wrong. Both sides have the right to complete the task that they set out to do (completing or not completing).
Challenging another player’s play style is the issue here, and since this revolved around an event that was designed to be completed, it is being changed so that the original design of the event can be carried out.
When something in the game (such as this event) changes negatively as this has, we need to step in and remediate the toxicity. The byproduct of this change happens to be that a champion farm is being slowed, but since that was the originating factor for the toxicity, it’s unavoidable.
I encourage players to remember that not everyone has the same goals when they play, and sometimes they will clash.”
This actually quite worries me. One of the points that ArenaNet made during development was that they were trying to make the event system work in such a way that there would never be clashes in the goals of different groups – the best rewards would always come from winning the events (including whatever might come later in the chain).
Mind you, temple defenses have been a big flaw in that theory since release (you don’t get a chest for a defense, so it’s often better to let it fail and then retake).
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
It is interesting to note that the dev’s quote does not in fact include the bolded section of your claim.
Chris Cleary.8017:
“There are really two sides to this, and when it comes down to it, you are both right – and you are both wrong. Both sides have the right to complete the task that they set out to do (completing or not completing).
Challenging another player’s play style is the issue here, and since this revolved around an event that was designed to be completed, it is being changed so that the original design of the event can be carried out.
When something in the game (such as this event) changes negatively as this has, we need to step in and remediate the toxicity. The byproduct of this change happens to be that a champion farm is being slowed, but since that was the originating factor for the toxicity, it’s unavoidable.
I encourage players to remember that not everyone has the same goals when they play, and sometimes they will clash.”
This actually quite worries me. One of the points that ArenaNet made during development was that they were trying to make the event system work in such a way that there would never be clashes in the goals of different groups – the best rewards would always come from winning the events (including whatever might come later in the chain).
Mind you, temple defenses have been a big flaw in that theory since release (you don’t get a chest for a defense, so it’s often better to let it fail and then retake).
Some time ago, posters complained about Champions being a waste of time to kill (along with other general complaints about poor rewards). ANet decided to create Champion bags as a means to entice players to fight the Champions. They also, to sweeten the pot, modified event scaling to proc Champions when numbers of players passed certain thresholds. Both changes were an attempt by ANet to improve the game’s rewards, which have been a sore point since launch.
Unfortunately, it looks like ANet didn’t anticipate that players would find event mechanics which had been implemented prior to those two changes and use these mechanics to farm, while also creating points of conflict between different groups of players. Those event mechanics were not a problem until better rewards became available. Events only failed if there were not enough players to complete them. So, what we have, is two updates to the game — Champ bags and event scaling — which are interacting with previously-enacted event design in an unforeseen fashion.
ANet does not want to take those farms away from players — despite farmer insistence that ANet does not want them to farm. The truth is, ANet does not want them to fight. Unfortunately, player greed and the infighting in chat that greed generates leaves them little choice but to modify events where the verbiage gets out of hand. Essentially, some of the farmers (and perhaps some trolls who enjoy tormenting them) are ruining these farm events.
It would be better if the champion bags of champions who come in existence because of scaling up are hold in “reserve”. The game counts them internally but awards them only if
the event succeeds, together with the event rewards (for example in a wiggly box above the mini map). The champions who are “naturally” there, without being triggered by the presence of many players, drop their bags as usual.
It would be better if the champion bags of champions who come in existence because of scaling up are hold in “reserve”. The game counts them internally but awards them only if
the event succeeds, together with the event rewards (for example in a wiggly box above the mini map). The champions who are “naturally” there, without being triggered by the presence of many players, drop their bags as usual.
It is interesting to note that the dev’s quote does not in fact include the bolded section of your claim.
Chris Cleary.8017:
“There are really two sides to this, and when it comes down to it, you are both right – and you are both wrong. Both sides have the right to complete the task that they set out to do (completing or not completing).
Challenging another player’s play style is the issue here, and since this revolved around an event that was designed to be completed, it is being changed so that the original design of the event can be carried out.
When something in the game (such as this event) changes negatively as this has, we need to step in and remediate the toxicity. The byproduct of this change happens to be that a champion farm is being slowed, but since that was the originating factor for the toxicity, it’s unavoidable.
I encourage players to remember that not everyone has the same goals when they play, and sometimes they will clash.”
This actually quite worries me. One of the points that ArenaNet made during development was that they were trying to make the event system work in such a way that there would never be clashes in the goals of different groups – the best rewards would always come from winning the events (including whatever might come later in the chain).
Mind you, temple defenses have been a big flaw in that theory since release (you don’t get a chest for a defense, so it’s often better to let it fail and then retake).
Some time ago, posters complained about Champions being a waste of time to kill (along with other general complaints about poor rewards). ANet decided to create Champion bags as a means to entice players to fight the Champions. They also, to sweeten the pot, modified event scaling to proc Champions when numbers of players passed certain thresholds. Both changes were an attempt by ANet to improve the game’s rewards, which have been a sore point since launch.
Unfortunately, it looks like ANet didn’t anticipate that players would find event mechanics which had been implemented prior to those two changes and use these mechanics to farm, while also creating points of conflict between different groups of players. Those event mechanics were not a problem until better rewards became available. Events only failed if there were not enough players to complete them. So, what we have, is two updates to the game — Champ bags and event scaling — which are interacting with previously-enacted event design in an unforeseen fashion.
ANet does not want to take those farms away from players — despite farmer insistence that ANet does not want them to farm. The truth is, ANet does not want them to fight. Unfortunately, player greed and the infighting in chat that greed generates leaves them little choice but to modify events where the verbiage gets out of hand. Essentially, some of the farmers (and perhaps some trolls who enjoy tormenting them) are ruining these farm events.
actually they made events scale up to champions before champion drop loot, as a means of nerfing loot, and not having everything die in .01 seconds. people were highly upset at the nerf, because even now, its better to kill 30 enemies(if you can actually get claims) in 5 seconds 4 times than fighting 1 champion for 1.3 minutes
before champion loot it was a literal smack in the face.
once champ loot existed, it was no longer crap, just not quite as effecient as murdering wave upon waves
I’m sad this post isn’t about mob AI but I wonder if an event can be created specifically for the crowd that like to fail events to farm champs. Maybe an event can be created that keeps producing champs until you fail to kill them? I don’t know how you would justify that except for an arena type setting but failing the event would stop the champ zerg rather then keep it going.
Well if the game was right a Fail should mean no reward at all… Not sure why it is set up that a fail is better then success??? I always try to do my best I hate failing at stuff…
this game is based on the concept that success doens’t get you a reward, time played does. This way, everybody can enjoy the game without getting frustrated, but everybody has to play 800 hours to get the good rewards, because otherwise everybody does get the good reward and it stops being rewarding.
As usual the farmers are hitting the weakest point they can find in the game design and trying to abuse it for their own wealth. As usual they are not respecting other players, since that would slow down their personal wealth creation scheme. As usual they claim they are within their rights and it is other people that are causing problems. As usual, the events will be modified so that the farmers will have to take their toxicity elsewhere and everyone else will casual on as they did before.
As usual the farmers are hitting the weakest point they can find in the game design and trying to abuse it for their own wealth. As usual they are not respecting other players, since that would slow down their personal wealth creation scheme. As usual they claim they are within their rights and it is other people that are causing problems. As usual, the events will be modified so that the farmers will have to take their toxicity elsewhere and everyone else will casual on as they did before.
And as usual, someone is making a point to represent the farmers as nothing but bad and mean.
And as usual, someone is making a point to represent the farmers as nothing but bad and mean.
The OP has claimed that farmers are shouting abuse at other players for completing events, presumably because it interferes with their wealth creation. That would be my definition of mean spirited behavior.
Anet can keep nerfing events over and over but this will not stop. The players still clinging to this game are desperately trying to be rewarded for their activities but Anet is dead set on making sure that is impossible. Every time they nerf one of these events a few more people give up.
Eventually they will simply run out of players to stop from farming.
And as usual, someone is making a point to represent the farmers as nothing but bad and mean.
The OP has claimed that farmers are shouting abuse at other players for completing events, presumably because it interferes with their wealth creation. That would be my definition of mean spirited behavior.
Right, it’s farmers who are (allegedly) doing the abuse. That doesn’t mean all farmers shout abuse and are only out for their own, selfish profit. A distinction you’re probably aware of, but it wasn’t really represented in your post.
And as usual, someone is making a point to represent the farmers as nothing but bad and mean.
I’m confused as to why YOU don’t make points to represent them as helpful and benevolent in their quest for riches? Oh, because they aren’t? Right.
I’m sure there are those farming the Event failures that keep their disdain for those completing the events off map chat and that’s very mature of them. I’d say the ones acting like children throwing tantrums when things don’t go their way might be responsible for the bad reputation being applied to the term “Event Fail Farmers”. Not really the fault of those pursuing the Event as designed, is it.
We go out in the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
I was in Kessex Hills working on my dailies/leveling a low level toon when map chat exploded with people yelling at others because they weren’t letting an event fail (I.E. doing the event). I jump in, totally not sure what’s going on and pick a fight with the loudest and rudest person in map chat, as time goes on people explain why they want the event to fail but are still unforgiving of people doing the event.
While I understand that certain events give more rewards than others, this doesn’t really seem to be right. Having the rewards improved so much, that people are purposely failing the events to trigger is a problem. Having the rewards improved so much that people are openly and as a group attacking the individuals who are doing the events (as intended) is a Really big problem.
One of the comments in Map chat was that this is common practice in Orr as well, got me kind of curious… Is this mob mentality really accepted into the PvE meta? Or was this just an isolated incidence of a rotten batch of apples?
~Background information (I wvw full time, but have recently been branching out so this was a serious shocker to me. However I suppose I want to know if it’s something I’ll just have to get used to or ignore. ) Don’t think it matters because of MegaServer but I"m on SBI.
An Anet rep has stated that failing an event on purpose in order to farm mobs is every bit as acceptable as completing the event.
What is not acceptable is being abusive toward others. In situations where conflict has escalated to abuse between event fail farmers and event completers Anet has altered the events to prevent the conflict.
No they did not say it is every bit as acceptable.
They said that everyone has the right to play the way they want unless it interferes with those playing the game the way it was designed to be played. Which is an important distinction to make and one fail train farmers seem oblivious to. They argument always stops at the “play the way you want” part and skips the rest.
They also said that things that cause toxicity (really really starting to hate that word) is super not okay. Which fail farming inevitably does.
It is interesting to note that the dev’s quote does not in fact include the bolded section of your claim.
Chris Cleary.8017:
“There are really two sides to this, and when it comes down to it, you are both right – and you are both wrong. Both sides have the right to complete the task that they set out to do (completing or not completing).
Challenging another player’s play style is the issue here, and since this revolved around an event that was designed to be completed, it is being changed so that the original design of the event can be carried out.
When something in the game (such as this event) changes negatively as this has, we need to step in and remediate the toxicity. The byproduct of this change happens to be that a champion farm is being slowed, but since that was the originating factor for the toxicity, it’s unavoidable.
I encourage players to remember that not everyone has the same goals when they play, and sometimes they will clash.”
I was paraphrasing. The key part is this..
“Challenging another player’s play style is the issue here, and since this revolved around an event that was designed to be completed, "
And this
“it is being changed so that the original design of the event can be carried out.”
It’s inferred that you can play the way you want unless it interferes with people playing the game as it was designed. If they were okay with people fail farming they wouldn’t constantly change events so they can’t be farmed, would they?
“Paraphrasing,” and, “inferred,” in this case mean misrepresenting what was stated. Note that the reason given for changing the events is toxicity not failing events.
Toxicity over people completing the events and not letting them fail.
And as usual, someone is making a point to represent the farmers as nothing but bad and mean.
I’m confused as to why YOU don’t make points to represent them as helpful and benevolent in their quest for riches? Oh, because they aren’t? Right.
I’m sure there are those farming the Event failures that keep their disdain for those completing the events off map chat and that’s very mature of them. I’d say the ones acting like children throwing tantrums when things don’t go their way might be responsible for the bad reputation being applied to the term “Event Fail Farmers”. Not really the fault of those pursuing the Event as designed, is it.
Lol, why does it need to be one or the other? “They are either bad and selfish or benevolent and helpful.” A handful represent the extremes, but most are just human beings who fall somewhere in the middle.
I don’t know why you’re prejudiced against them. Not everyone who farms is sitting there in disdain the moment anyone disrupts their plans.
Well if the game was right a Fail should mean no reward at all… Not sure why it is set up that a fail is better then success??? I always try to do my best I hate failing at stuff…
The reason why failing gives rewards is because ArenaNet didn’t want players to be “so close” to success and get absolutely nothing for their effort.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
