Guild Wars 2

So there has been alot of threads recently about people blaming DPS, specifically, berserker gear, as being the reason why dungeons are being completed so fast that it forced everyone to run them. People agrue that they would like to run other gears and run dungeons just as fast. Well I am here to tell you guys that Mobility is the reason why people are completing dungeons so fast. First let’s look at the days when FGS elite was dominant, can we can all agree that FGS did the MOST DPS in the game ever? If you examine the past world record runs where FGS was used for damage, most of them are actually over 1minute slower than what it is today. Why? Because instead of using FGS to damage, people are now using FGS to run and as a result has significantly improved their completion time! The biggest bottleneck in dungeons is not DPS but rather movement check. I believe mobility is a huge problem in this game as it literally has no counter play in PvE and should be nerfed. At least berserker gear has some counters, which is you can easily wipe if you messed up on dodges. So I propose a solution to this problem. In games like smash brothers where mobility was at a point king, the developers decided to introduce a counter to it, where if you continuously dash, you have a chance to slip( http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Prat_Falling ). I believe if anyone has swiftness boon or uses mobility skills too much, they should have a chance to slip. If other games like Smash Brothers does it, then it obviously would make sense to implement something similar in GW2.

PS its called speed running for a reason and not speed killing.

Edit: Okay I realized that it was stupid to implement the slip feature just like how it is stupid to implement tank healer in an action MMO game, so I would like to suggest a new moderate solution which is: Whenever you move while under the effects of swiftness you slowly degenerate endurance and whenever you use mobility skills you lose a little bit of endurance.

It was a terrible and stupid idea in Smash Brothers and it would be terrible here.

I think Smashbrawl is the only ‘fighting’ game I’ve ever seen implement a slip function, so no, “other games” isn’t exactly accurate.

I don’t think it was stupid in Smash. A band-aid solution maybe, but it needed to be done. Or something did.

In this game, I don’t think we need something like this.

In what way could it ever make sense to implement a fighting game feature in an adventure game MMO? They’re not even on the same genre spectrum. They are completely separate entities.

EcoRI.9273:

. So I propose a solution to this problem. In games like smash brothers where mobility was at a point king, the developers decided to introduce a counter to it, where if you continuously dash, you have a chance to slip-

No.

Any random uncontrollable factor that could lead to death or ruin meticulous, skillful play that is built into the game would do nothing but aggravate the player base.

Please do research.

“Many players have cited random tripping as an unnecessary and detrimental addition to the game, since, in their view, it not only adds nothing worthwhile to the game, but introduces a constant element of chance that disrupts gameplay and has the potential to decide a match. Random tripping is also said to harm the metagame of Brawl; it cannot be used as part of any strategy since it is impossible to predict consistently enough.”

It’s not the game’s fault that players can learn boss mechanics well enough to not worry about toughness. It’s not the players fault either. At some point the community that has some kind of hangup with zerker is going to need to bite the bullet and realize that there’s nothing they can do to make toughness oriented gear as viable as damage oriented gear short of forcing people to take damage which is poor game design and would be shunned by non zerker and zerker armored players alike.

To people that see the zerker meta as a problem, literally nobody is forcing you to run it. you can use anything almost anywhere you want The only time this becomes an issue is when someone who does not want to run a dps oriented set tries to join a speedrun (that mentions zerker only in LFG.)

This whole issue is over some players being disallowed in a fraction of dungeon groups looking to speedclear, because they won’t gear for speedclearing.

There’s nothing to fix. People just need to stop joining speedclear dungeon groups if they won’t gear for speedclearing.

Kal Spiro.9745:

In what way could it ever make sense to implement a fighting game feature in an adventure game MMO? They’re not even on the same genre spectrum. They are completely separate entities.

:-\ Well you’ve convinced me! so I wrote an alternate solution.

Warcry.1596:

I don’t think it was stupid in Smash. A band-aid solution maybe, but it needed to be done. Or something did.

In this game, I don’t think we need something like this.

Why did it need to be done?

EcoRI.9273:

Edit: Okay I realized that it was stupid to implement the slip feature just like how it is stupid to implement tank healer in an action MMO game, so I would like to suggest a new moderate solution which is: Whenever you move while under the effects of swiftness you slowly degenerate endurance and whenever you use mobility skills you lose a little bit of endurance.

Does this mean that if you dodge twice you can’t physically use a mobility skill? If you can keep swiftness up long enough to drain all of your endurance does it just stay drained or do you lose swiftness, and again does this disable your ability to use other skills?

I honestly don’t understand what the problem is. Why does a change need to be made? What is wrong with being able to do a dungeon fast if you know all the intricacies of that dungeon? I want more options in how I complete content, I don’t want restrictions in how I can complete content. Mobile characters are supposed to be mobile, it’s the design of the character, and that includes being able to dodge twice across the board.

Kal Spiro.9745:

EcoRI.9273:

Edit: Okay I realized that it was stupid to implement the slip feature just like how it is stupid to implement tank healer in an action MMO game, so I would like to suggest a new moderate solution which is: Whenever you move while under the effects of swiftness you slowly degenerate endurance and whenever you use mobility skills you lose a little bit of endurance.

Does this mean that if you dodge twice you can’t physically use a mobility skill? If you can keep swiftness up long enough to drain all of your endurance does it just stay drained or do you lose swiftness, and again does this disable your ability to use other skills?

I honestly don’t understand what the problem is. Why does a change need to be made? What is wrong with being able to do a dungeon fast if you know all the intricacies of that dungeon? I want more options in how I complete content, I don’t want restrictions in how I can complete content. Mobile characters are supposed to be mobile, it’s the design of the character, and that includes being able to dodge twice across the board.

Mobility skills consumes a little bit of endurance, swiftness ends if you run out of endurance.

And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.

Warcry.1596:

I don’t think it was stupid in Smash. A band-aid solution maybe, but it needed to be done. Or something did.

And why, exactly, was that? Why would you purposely limit player movement to make it worse?

This is interesting…a good start to the solution, but it needs to be expanded a bit.

In particular, I think they’d need to include some sort of counter-play. As Azure said, the uncontrollable aspect of your proposal is too harsh.

Remember that Southsun Racing mini-game? That always made me think of Mario Cart. Since this game is like Mario Cart and Mario Cart had the “Banana Peel” power-up, but they gave players “Whistle” abilities so that skilled play still allowed sufficiently experienced players the ability to maintain control after encountering the slippery object.

Maybe they could tie “Whistle” into the healing skill? If you notice the tell for a slip coming up, you could pop your heal to “Whistle” and maintain control of your character. It would add a disincentive to skipping, since there would be a chance to roll a “Slip”, requiring to player to either:

a) aggro nearby mobs. Slipping should drastically increase aggro radius, obviously, or
b) “Whistle”, leaving the player without a heal for any upcoming fighting.

This way, zerk groups wouldn’t skip all of the mobs in the dungeons.

What do you guys think? I think this would solve the problem of dungeon groups that just skip everything quite well.

EcoRI.9273:

And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.

Dear lord, literally “I don’t like that people can play a way I don’t like, nerf them to my level!”. The ridiculousness is real.

Fermi.2409:

EcoRI.9273:

And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.

Dear lord, literally “I don’t like that people can play a way I don’t like, nerf them to my level!”. The ridiculousness is real.

Sad but true.

Nobody’s stopping OP from gearing to make the same kind of money but the OP. Unlike RL, where income is largely influenced by circumstance, the tools are always available to you for use.

Not wanting to use them, but at the same time insisting people who do be punished so you don’t feel less efficient is not only silly, but childish.

I’m not surprised by the mindset. I’m sure a lot more people think the same way, but hide it through circumlocative arguments about why the meta needs fixing.

Fermi.2409:

EcoRI.9273:

And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.

Dear lord, literally “I don’t like that people can play a way I don’t like, nerf them to my level!”. The ridiculousness is real.

Although you find it ridiculous, I can assure you many people in this forum feel the same way that I feel. Be it Tank/Healer or Walking to conserve endurance I think we should all unite to fight for our cause. So Tank/Healer advocates please give me your support because although we are on different battlefronts, we are both fighting the same fight.

EcoRI.9273:

Fermi.2409:

EcoRI.9273:

And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.

Dear lord, literally “I don’t like that people can play a way I don’t like, nerf them to my level!”. The ridiculousness is real.

Although you find it ridiculous, I can assure you many people in this forum feel the same way that I feel. Be it Tank/Healer or Walking to conserve endurance I think we should all unite to fight for our cause. So Tank/Healer advocates please give me your support because although we are on different battlefronts, we are both fighting the same fight.

I am quite sure lots of people feel as you do.

You should not punish someone for being more efficient than you on -any- plane though, game or not.

This change is pointless. It’s like adding more HP to a boss. You’ve simply added more time to a run without adding anything meaningful, mechanics wise. We all suffer equally with this change.

Mobility IS the problem, slipping is NOT the solution XD

As for endurance being reduced when using a mobility skill or dodge, that’s not the worst idea in the world. Interestingly enough, in the beta for Guild Wars 2, there was an energy system that all skills took part in, and dodging just removed a large chunk of this energy. In the final version, as we can see, energy costs were completely removed from abilities and now dodging is the only energy consumer.
It’s sad that this game’s pve only allows one stat set for optimal builds, But the answer to this is simpler than an energy overhaul. What really needs to happen is that enemies need to hit faster. Currently everyone can run glass cannon builds and get away with it because of aegis, blind, and dodging. If enemies had quick moderate attacks instead of incredibly slow powerful attacks, characters would aegis, dodge, blind, and still run out of ways to avoid damage. This is a problem that I think they’re addressing in HoT, they’ve talked about more intelligent AI and now the introduction of the new condition taunt. I believe they’re moving more in a direction of players needing more than just dps in their groups, which if they can do correctly, will open up other stat sets. Also, condi stat sets will come in handy if they correctly fix pve condition damage. So all in all, I don’t think we’re getting fixes to pve until the xpac, but when HoT does come it’ll likely take care of our stat set problem.

As i said somewhere else the real culprit is “every man for himself”
u fail dodge u die it dosent matter how much waterfields ur team give u.

EcoRI.9273:

Kal Spiro.9745:

EcoRI.9273:

Edit: Okay I realized that it was stupid to implement the slip feature just like how it is stupid to implement tank healer in an action MMO game, so I would like to suggest a new moderate solution which is: Whenever you move while under the effects of swiftness you slowly degenerate endurance and whenever you use mobility skills you lose a little bit of endurance.

Does this mean that if you dodge twice you can’t physically use a mobility skill? If you can keep swiftness up long enough to drain all of your endurance does it just stay drained or do you lose swiftness, and again does this disable your ability to use other skills?

I honestly don’t understand what the problem is. Why does a change need to be made? What is wrong with being able to do a dungeon fast if you know all the intricacies of that dungeon? I want more options in how I complete content, I don’t want restrictions in how I can complete content. Mobile characters are supposed to be mobile, it’s the design of the character, and that includes being able to dodge twice across the board.

Mobility skills consumes a little bit of endurance, swiftness ends if you run out of endurance.

And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.

Ah, so because you personally have a problem with this one thing, everyone should be impaired by it. Sorry, that sounds like a terrible reason to make such a massively game changing alteration.

EcoRI.9273:

Whenever you move while under the effects of swiftness you slowly degenerate endurance and whenever you use mobility skills you lose a little bit of endurance.

To further build upon this most original of ideas, I suggest to reintroduce the “exhaustion system” (overcast) GW1 has:

The use of mobility skills also temporarily lowers your maximum amount of endurance. You will see a grey bar appear at the end of your endurance bar, which cannot be refilled until you have completely recovered from the effect. Think of this as being exhausted from all the running around.

To encourage different gear stats, “defensive” gear will faster build exhaustion (try running around with all those thick armor plates), but offer a bigger amount of total endurance. DPS-gear on the other hand will build less exhaustion, but come with less total endurance (the berserkers just don’t work out as much as the tanks do).

Lastly, the necromancer elite spec should be renamed to “dopemancer”. By giving blood transfusions, waking dead-tired limbs or transferring endurance from the enemies, some of the endurance regeneration as well as the exhaustion can be countered. This will ensure that the necromancer will finally have place in the swiftness-meta.

EcoRI.9273:

So there has been alot of threads recently about people blaming DPS, specifically, berserker gear, as being the reason why dungeons are being completed so fast that it forced everyone to run them. People agrue that they would like to run other gears and run dungeons just as fast. Well I am here to tell you guys that Mobility is the reason why people are completing dungeons so fast. First let’s look at the days when FGS elite was dominant, can we can all agree that FGS did the MOST DPS in the game ever? If you examine the past world record runs where FGS was used for damage, most of them are actually over 1minute slower than what it is today. Why? Because instead of using FGS to damage, people are now using FGS to run and as a result has significantly improved their completion time! The biggest bottleneck in dungeons is not DPS but rather movement check. I believe mobility is a huge problem in this game as it literally has no counter play in PvE and should be nerfed. At least berserker gear has some counters, which is you can easily wipe if you messed up on dodges. So I propose a solution to this problem. In games like smash brothers where mobility was at a point king, the developers decided to introduce a counter to it, where if you continuously dash, you have a chance to slip( http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Prat_Falling ). I believe if anyone has swiftness boon or uses mobility skills too much, they should have a chance to slip. If other games like Smash Brothers does it, then it obviously would make sense to implement something similar in GW2.

PS its called speed running for a reason and not speed killing.

Edit: Okay I realized that it was stupid to implement the slip feature just like how it is stupid to implement tank healer in an action MMO game, so I would like to suggest a new moderate solution which is: Whenever you move while under the effects of swiftness you slowly degenerate endurance and whenever you use mobility skills you lose a little bit of endurance.

The game is already boring as it is. Most players run those lame kitten dungeons in auto pilot just for the daily gold. Its not fun and your proposed changes would actually make it even less fun than it already is.

People are forgetting, that all you get out of most dungeon runs are a few tokens which are useless after awhile and that small amount of gold.

10-15min dungeon runs for 1.5g is abysmal, padding it out by forcing the meta to change will just cause people to abandon dungeons entirely.

The issues aren’t the meta, the issues are the way the game works, how gear is gotten and the poor way in which content is framed and rewards are doled out.

The meta is just the most effective way to do the already mundane and monotonous content so people don’t want to shoot themselves after a few hours of playing.

I personally don’t even run dungeons anymore because after doing AC p1,2,3 everyday for 3 weeks I literally cannot stand it anymore.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

the tools are always available to you for use.

And are always kittenblocked by the worst RNG loot tables in all of gaming history.

Kal Spiro.9745:

In what way could it ever make sense to implement a fighting game feature in an adventure game MMO? They’re not even on the same genre spectrum. They are completely separate entities.

Many of the GW2 combat concepts are akin to these action games, evade frames, swing time, frame data, etc.

I’ve had a few of my friends(who compete in EVO) pick up the game and explained the entirety of the combat system using fighting game logic to them and they performed admirably in dungeons. I explained the entirety of the lupicus fight to them using frama data logic and to no surprise they performed admirably in melee off the wall, this is a couple days after they hit lvl80 on their first characters-.

This does nothing to address the meta, in any of it’s forms, so no. Making EVERYONE suffer just means the status quo remains the same.

Basandra Skye.4031:

This does nothing to address the meta, in any of it’s forms, so no. Making EVERYONE suffer just means the status quo remains the same.

Man, I saw this thread title and got interested because I thought it was going to be a breakdown on how mobility is actually unnecessary for 90% of the fights in this game, which is why standing in one spot with melee weapons is so very good in PvE. (By comparison it’s kind of bad in PvP / WvW unless you’re also using control tactics to pin someone down for those high-damage channels, which at least requires some amount of combo)

Edit: Also, random tripping? Sakuraaaaiiii

Fermi.2409:

The ridiculousness is real.

lawls

what’s it with those nerfers these days? They like to see things get “moderated” in their point of view so it could fit their own (sometimes lack of) play style more.

What’s wrong with ppl speed running, speed killing, speed whatevering the dungeons?
Let them have their fun!

What do you have against ppl comleting dungeons fast?

What harm does it to you?

If you don’t like it, dear EcoRI.9273, then don’t participate in those runs.
Use the LFG and forums to find ppl which enjoy the things you do.

Why do you try to regulate the things in your own image, if both can happily coexist?

Well here’s the answer:

“…but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.” EcoRI.9273

It’s pure selfishness. You just want it to be your way, because.

yuck

Satenia.9025:

EcoRI.9273:

Whenever you move while under the effects of swiftness you slowly degenerate endurance and whenever you use mobility skills you lose a little bit of endurance.

To further build upon this most original of ideas, I suggest to reintroduce the “exhaustion system” (overcast) GW1 has:

The use of mobility skills also temporarily lowers your maximum amount of endurance. You will see a grey bar appear at the end of your endurance bar, which cannot be refilled until you have completely recovered from the effect. Think of this as being exhausted from all the running around.

To encourage different gear stats, “defensive” gear will faster build exhaustion (try running around with all those thick armor plates), but offer a bigger amount of total endurance. DPS-gear on the other hand will build less exhaustion, but come with less total endurance (the berserkers just don’t work out as much as the tanks do).

actually not so bad, faster speed in return of less dodging.
i do have to say something about the defensive part, they actually need something like a defensive bonus when standing still so actual tanks can shrug off allot of dmg before hitting any critical levels.
maybe something like, when they stand still they use endurance to stop X% of damage.
so anyone with toughness on their armor has this bonus, movement is limited but defense is way higher then any berserker can ever have.

*slow clap*

;)

There is a failure in analysis by the OP. If the presenting problem is that different gear prefixes are not equal in terms of clear time, then a solution which changes something that is independent of stats (other than Boon Duration — which does not appear on glass gear) is not likely to change the preferred gearing.

Wanting gear diversity is based around the want for role diversity. The only solution to this problem is to implement dedicated roles. You cannot solve this “problem” with a mobility nerf. Nor can it be solved by making mobs attack faster. At best, either approach would shift the gear meta to a hybrid damage/survival gear prefix.

Finally, HoT is not going to change the dungeon meta. Last I heard, there will be no changes to dungeons in HoT, and this is the context in which the meta issue is raised. While condi gear may in fact become more desirable, condi stat sets come in glass and hybrid damage/survival sets, so glass is likely to still be required in dungeons even if Rampager and Sinister become accepted.

Now, maybe ANet is doing things in HoT to require the use of certain skills, boons, etc. They began this in Dry Top and SW. These modifications to game play did not make any appreciable change in the desirability of glass gear that I saw. Now, if someone were to present evidence that the Dry Top mobs/events and the Mordrem changed gear desirability, I’d be happy to consider it. Otherwise, while HoT may in fact present more complex encounters requiring more thoughtful play, I doubt it will introduce gear diversity.

Nah. The reason people dash past enemies is because they can. Where there’s no doors closed before the can progress. What people won’t skip is what they can’t skip. All they want is the chest at the end.

THAT is the problem.

The content to the chest is barely rewarded, most of the reward is on the boss.

What the content needs is rewarding each step, and scaling the rewards to personal participation.

You help in the pre-events, are there from the start of the dungeomn path or are present on all 4 fractals? You get more stuff.

You do more that the minimum? You get even more stuff.

You arrive just to hit a bit the last boss? You get the bare minimum.

If done correctly, taking 1 hour because you wiped every single enemy and completed every single bonus event would reward as much or even a bit more than any number of paths done with as much skipping as possible in the same time.

Hidori.3472:

what’s it with those nerfers these days? They like to see things get “moderated” in their point of view so it could fit their own (sometimes lack of) play style more.

What’s wrong with ppl speed running, speed killing, speed whatevering the dungeons?
Let them have their fun!

What do you have against ppl comleting dungeons fast?

What harm does it to you?

If you don’t like it, dear EcoRI.9273, then don’t participate in those runs.
Use the LFG and forums to find ppl which enjoy the things you do.

Why do you try to regulate the things in your own image, if both can happily coexist?

Well here’s the answer:

“…but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.” EcoRI.9273

It’s pure selfishness. You just want it to be your way, because.

yuck

Well actually in a MMO where the end game is Fashion Wars 2, if everyone else is making more money than me because of how I want to play, I won’t be able to buy all the shinies that I want from the TP because the guys speed running are jacking up the prices. So yes it does affect me. #OccupySpeedRun.

IndigoSundown.5419:

There is a failure in analysis by the OP. If the presenting problem is that different gear prefixes are not equal in terms of clear time, then a solution which changes something that is independent of stats (other than Boon Duration — which does not appear on glass gear) is not likely to change the preferred gearing.

Wanting gear diversity is based around the want for role diversity. The only solution to this problem is to implement dedicated roles. You cannot solve this “problem” with a mobility nerf. Nor can it be solved by making mobs attack faster. At best, either approach would shift the gear meta to a hybrid damage/survival gear prefix.

Finally, HoT is not going to change the dungeon meta. Last I heard, there will be no changes to dungeons in HoT, and this is the context in which the meta issue is raised. While condi gear may in fact become more desirable, condi stat sets come in glass and hybrid damage/survival sets, so glass is likely to still be required in dungeons even if Rampager and Sinister become accepted.

Now, maybe ANet is doing things in HoT to require the use of certain skills, boons, etc. They began this in Dry Top and SW. These modifications to game play did not make any appreciable change in the desirability of glass gear that I saw. Now, if someone were to present evidence that the Dry Top mobs/events and the Mordrem changed gear desirability, I’d be happy to consider it. Otherwise, while HoT may in fact present more complex encounters requiring more thoughtful play, I doubt it will introduce gear diversity.

My problem is that there is 0 cons to mobility. It can speed up dungeon completion significantly faster than berserker gear. When players play berserker, the game has at least a counter in place for it. Which is if you mess up, you are going to wipe and you will have to restart. I want a system that stops this mobility meta.

Here’s a list of things that one could rework, in order to make dungeons take longer and be more challenging:

• Make trash mobs interesting
• Require killing trash mobs to progress
• Make bosses tougher
• Change the dodge mechanic (no invincibility frames)
• Implement boss mechanics
• Add “*2” at the end of every line of code that affects enemies, because it will totally work and speed up enemy autoattacks! /sarcasm
• Include jumping puzzles in boss fights and/or dungeons (inb4 kittenstorm)
• ….

This is spontaneous list in no particular order and the items may or may not be feasible but what I am trying to point out is that, in my opinion, the traveling speed is about the last thing that should be changed.

Maybe mobility is the problem. Enemies aren’t mobile enough. There’s a reason that PvP and PvE have completely different metas, and most of it has to do with enemy AI in PvE being dumber than horse kitten.

“What the content needs is rewarding each step, and scaling the rewards to personal participation. "

+ 100.

EcoRI.9273:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

My problem is that there is 0 cons to mobility. It can speed up dungeon completion significantly faster than berserker gear. When players play berserker, the game has at least a counter in place for it. Which is if you mess up, you are going to wipe and you will have to restart. I want a system that stops this mobility meta.

Why bring gear into it, then? Your analysis refers to berserker. Why mention it if — as is in fact the case — mobility has zero to do with gear — absent Winter and Giver’s prefix, which are in no way meta?

Change your presentation of the problem to one of whether the opportunity costs of mobility are too low. Be sure to use numbers rather than anecdotes. What you’re proposing is a conditional nerf to active defense as the opportunity cost for mobility. How much of a nerf, and what about mobility deserves that nerf? Hint: basing a nerf proposal solely on skipping in dungeons is not going to fly without some consideration of how the change would affect the rest of the game. Another hint: if there is a problem in a single game mode, then the best solution is likely to be changes that only affect that game mode, such as Mithran suggests.

The troll is real

Good laugh!

EcoRI.9273:

It is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I hate the fact that everyone will make so much more money than me.

Here’s the “tldr” it is in a nutshell. One counter to the OP’s counter is this, MOUNTS! Terrain speed is way to freak’n slow in this game as it is. Swiftness is an incredible nag as we traverse the zones. If anything slows or inhibits terrain speed further, then the demand for mounts will go thru the roof.

btw OP, nerfing the entire game and reducing the fun and enjoyment of the majority for the miniscule amount of dungeon runners is ludicrous!

DeWolfe.2174:

EcoRI.9273:

It is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I hate the fact that everyone will make so much more money than me.

Here’s the “tldr” it is in a nutshell. One counter to the OP’s counter is this, MOUNTS! Terrain speed is way to freak’n slow in this game as it is. Swiftness is an incredible nag as we traverse the zones. If anything slows or inhibits terrain speed further, then the demand for mounts will go thru the roof.

btw OP, nerfing the entire game and reducing the fun and enjoyment of the majority for the miniscule amount of dungeon runners is ludicrous!

+1.

Again, the only people that are telling you that you need to run a specific way are people doing speedclear dungeons.

You’re ruining the experience of thousands of players who will accept you for the small fraction of people that wont.

EcoRI.9273:

Hidori.3472:

what’s it with those nerfers these days? They like to see things get “moderated” in their point of view so it could fit their own (sometimes lack of) play style more.

What’s wrong with ppl speed running, speed killing, speed whatevering the dungeons?
Let them have their fun!

What do you have against ppl comleting dungeons fast?

What harm does it to you?

If you don’t like it, dear EcoRI.9273, then don’t participate in those runs.
Use the LFG and forums to find ppl which enjoy the things you do.

Why do you try to regulate the things in your own image, if both can happily coexist?

Well here’s the answer:

“…but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.” EcoRI.9273

It’s pure selfishness. You just want it to be your way, because.

yuck

Well actually in a MMO where the end game is Fashion Wars 2, if everyone else is making more money than me because of how I want to play, I won’t be able to buy all the shinies that I want from the TP because the guys speed running are jacking up the prices. So yes it does affect me. #OccupySpeedRun.

Fashion wars may be your end game but it isn’t mine. What you are suggesting effects more than just dungeons, it effects all game modes.

EcoRI.9273:

So there has been alot of threads recently about people blaming DPS, specifically, berserker gear, as being the reason why dungeons are being completed so fast that it forced everyone to run them. People agrue that they would like to run other gears and run dungeons just as fast. Well I am here to tell you guys that Mobility is the reason why people are completing dungeons so fast. First let’s look at the days when FGS elite was dominant, can we can all agree that FGS did the MOST DPS in the game ever? If you examine the past world record runs where FGS was used for damage, most of them are actually over 1minute slower than what it is today. Why? Because instead of using FGS to damage, people are now using FGS to run and as a result has significantly improved their completion time! The biggest bottleneck in dungeons is not DPS but rather movement check. I believe mobility is a huge problem in this game as it literally has no counter play in PvE and should be nerfed. At least berserker gear has some counters, which is you can easily wipe if you messed up on dodges. So I propose a solution to this problem. In games like smash brothers where mobility was at a point king, the developers decided to introduce a counter to it, where if you continuously dash, you have a chance to slip( http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Prat_Falling ). I believe if anyone has swiftness boon or uses mobility skills too much, they should have a chance to slip. If other games like Smash Brothers does it, then it obviously would make sense to implement something similar in GW2.

PS its called speed running for a reason and not speed killing.

Edit: Okay I realized that it was stupid to implement the slip feature just like how it is stupid to implement tank healer in an action MMO game, so I would like to suggest a new moderate solution which is: Whenever you move while under the effects of swiftness you slowly degenerate endurance and whenever you use mobility skills you lose a little bit of endurance.

I disagree with you completely OP. Being slowed down and punished for moving in a game that wants to have free, open and dynamic combat and movement style is completely wrong.

Why does everything have to be nerfed, slowed down or broken?

EcoRI.9273:

Kal Spiro.9745:

EcoRI.9273:

Edit: Okay I realized that it was stupid to implement the slip feature just like how it is stupid to implement tank healer in an action MMO game, so I would like to suggest a new moderate solution which is: Whenever you move while under the effects of swiftness you slowly degenerate endurance and whenever you use mobility skills you lose a little bit of endurance.

Does this mean that if you dodge twice you can’t physically use a mobility skill? If you can keep swiftness up long enough to drain all of your endurance does it just stay drained or do you lose swiftness, and again does this disable your ability to use other skills?

I honestly don’t understand what the problem is. Why does a change need to be made? What is wrong with being able to do a dungeon fast if you know all the intricacies of that dungeon? I want more options in how I complete content, I don’t want restrictions in how I can complete content. Mobile characters are supposed to be mobile, it’s the design of the character, and that includes being able to dodge twice across the board.

Mobility skills consumes a little bit of endurance, swiftness ends if you run out of endurance.

And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.

So play with your own type of player and don’t mingle with the rest.
This is a classic case of " change the game for everyone so it can be more like I’d like it because I can’t be bothered to make my own groups and find people like myself".

You’re sad that others are making more money? Wow – what can I say.

Have you considered that you can’t have your cake and eat it? You can play the way you want or you can make more money. You really want it all don’t you?

Just wow.

Also OP don’t the people who make TONS of money on the TP bother you? Doesn’t it bother you that with a bit of real life cash people can make tons more money than you can in dungeons?
Or by flipping items or crafting various items like ascended insignias?
And worst of all – they’re not even moving whilst doing it!!!

Extreme.8350:

As i said somewhere else the real culprit is “every man for himself”
u fail dodge u die it dosent matter how much waterfields ur team give u.

This is exactly what I love about this game – you can’t have people relying on other people to carry them through. If you can’t play you have to improve or not succeed. This is what this game does right.

EcoRI.9273:

Hidori.3472:

what’s it with those nerfers these days? They like to see things get “moderated” in their point of view so it could fit their own (sometimes lack of) play style more.

What’s wrong with ppl speed running, speed killing, speed whatevering the dungeons?
Let them have their fun!

What do you have against ppl comleting dungeons fast?

What harm does it to you?

If you don’t like it, dear EcoRI.9273, then don’t participate in those runs.
Use the LFG and forums to find ppl which enjoy the things you do.

Why do you try to regulate the things in your own image, if both can happily coexist?

Well here’s the answer:

“…but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.” EcoRI.9273

It’s pure selfishness. You just want it to be your way, because.

yuck

Well actually in a MMO where the end game is Fashion Wars 2, if everyone else is making more money than me because of how I want to play, I won’t be able to buy all the shinies that I want from the TP because the guys speed running are jacking up the prices. So yes it does affect me. #OccupySpeedRun.

Welcome to reality – also it might be of interest to you that a player using his credit card or moving stuff on the TP for great profit will earn MUCH MORE than your average speed runner.
You have to realize you can’t blame speed runners for this – plus – the major culprit in my opinion is Gems to gold – how many people turn gems to gold and get far more than your average speed runner?

Cuddy.6247:

Maybe mobility is the problem. Enemies aren’t mobile enough. There’s a reason that PvP and PvE have completely different metas, and most of it has to do with enemy AI in PvE being dumber than horse kitten.

Sure – fair – but the average PVE player doesn’t want to go into PVE and be faced with a PVP or near PVP level of AI challenge.

The average PVE player wants to go in and actually beat something without much effort. If they wanted a lot of effort in their PVE we’d be seeing a lot more FOTM 50 players.

So making the AI behave much more like PVP is only a solution if you aiming at alienating a good portion of the community.

EcoRI.9273:

Edit: Okay I realized that it was stupid to implement the slip feature just like how it is stupid to implement tank healer in an action MMO game, so I would like to suggest a new moderate solution which is: Whenever you move while under the effects of swiftness you slowly degenerate endurance and whenever you use mobility skills you lose a little bit of endurance.

Imagine the trolls that would cast swiftness on people before a boss.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Fermi.2409:

EcoRI.9273:

And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.

Dear lord, literally “I don’t like that people can play a way I don’t like, nerf them to my level!”. The ridiculousness is real.

Sad but true.

Nobody’s stopping OP from gearing to make the same kind of money but the OP. Unlike RL, where income is largely influenced by circumstance, the tools are always available to you for use.

Not wanting to use them, but at the same time insisting people who do be punished so you don’t feel less efficient is not only silly, but childish.

I’m not surprised by the mindset. I’m sure a lot more people think the same way, but hide it through circumlocative arguments about why the meta needs fixing.

Game shouldn’t be about making gold.

That is the point.

People who are complaining about lack of enjoyable gameplay in dungeons are not about the gold; that is the entire point.

They want to have fun.

Also, if the game was redesigned to be less cheesable, they could (or should) up the drops, to make up for the fact that dungeons would then take slightly longer

I don’t, necessarily, agree with the OP’s idea of what is ruining dungeons, ATM, but I do applaud his call to make them more interesting.

Tigaseye.2047:

Game should be about making gold.

That is the point.

People who are complaining about lack of enjoyable gameplay in dungeons are not about the gold; that is the entire point.

They want to have fun.

Also, if the game was redesigned to be less cheesable, they could (or should) up the drops, to make up for the fact that dungeons would then take slightly longer

I don’t, necessarily, agree with the OP’s idea of what is ruining dungeons, ATM, but I do applaud his call to make them more interesting.

The OP is not asking to make dungeons more interesting. He’s asking for those using the fastest tactics to be slowed down so he can feel like his gold gain is closer to theirs. The OP is not calling for play to be more interesting, his beef is in fact about gold.