Guild Wars 2

IndigoSundown.5419:

Tigaseye.2047:

Game should be about making gold.

That is the point.

People who are complaining about lack of enjoyable gameplay in dungeons are not about the gold; that is the entire point.

They want to have fun.

Also, if the game was redesigned to be less cheesable, they could (or should) up the drops, to make up for the fact that dungeons would then take slightly longer

I don’t, necessarily, agree with the OP’s idea of what is ruining dungeons, ATM, but I do applaud his call to make them more interesting.

The OP is not asking to make dungeons more interesting. He’s asking for those using the fastest tactics to be slowed down so he can feel like his gold gain is closer to theirs. The OP is not calling for play to be more interesting, his beef is in fact about gold.

That’s not really how I read it.

He says; " People agrue that they would like to run other gears and run dungeons just as fast.".

That, to me, just means that he wants more equality in gear (and/or thinks other people do).

Obviously, people don’t want to intentionally reduce their own effectiveness (that would be silly); but that doesn’t mean they don’t want any choice, at all.

Giving people several viable choices, as opposed to only one right answer and a ton of wrong ones, is good design.

It makes for a fun game.

The problem is that the various stack and skip friendly mechanics in the game + the design of the current dungeons practically dictate everything you do.

From what you can skip, to where you should stack, to what weapons you should use (melee, obviously), to what gear you should use, to what utilities you should use, to what builds…

That is boring, tedious, ill thought-out design and makes the game less enjoyable than it could otherwise be.

Tigaseye.2047:

That’s not really how I read it.

He literally came out and said that that’s why he made the topic.

Well, if you kill mobility in dungeons, you should kill mobility elsewhere, such as removing WP’s
Then maybe they could increase event rewards.
This game is alllll about mobility when it comes down to it. You 1st year eq1 vets (pre-PoP anyway) know what I’m talking ’bout

Fermi.2409:

Tigaseye.2047:

That’s not really how I read it.

He literally came out and said that that’s why he made the topic.

OK, do you mean, here(?):

“And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.”

So, the OP’s idea of fun is immersion and he doesn’t see why he can’t run dungeons in a different way and still keep-up with others financially.

I don’t see what is wrong with that POV?

To me, it is a given that most people won’t want to reduce their own effectiveness, financially.

But, if he was just about maximising profit and not about fun gameplay, he would just suck it up, stick on his Zerker gear, build for DPS, use melee weaps and skip and stack where told to.

He wouldn’t be here complaining, at all, he would just be counting his gold (like most of the rest of you are)…

As long as he doesn’t want some kind of financial advantage over those playing differently, why shouldn’t he ask for more equality?

As I say, not sure I agree with the specific suggestion, but I think it’s fair enough to try to search for solutions.

Why do people post thoughtful, and at times long winded responses to what is either an OBVIOUS troll post, or a post that is so deluded as to defy belief?

This thread has gone on for two pages over an argument with a premise that is IMHO unbelievable.

I mean, come on.

See. See everyone? Threads like this IS the reason that the Suggestion subforum got trashed, locked down, and put away into the archives.. 99.9999% of the Suggestion threads are pure garbage.

Kaleban.9834:

Why do people post thoughtful, and at times long winded responses to what is either an OBVIOUS troll post, or a post that is so deluded as to defy belief?

This thread has gone on for two pages over an argument with a premise that is IMHO unbelievable.

I mean, come on.

Why is it unbelievable in your opinion?

I think you really mean unthinkable – as in, you think something like this would affect you adversely, so you try to belittle it.

I don’t particularly like it as a suggestion, but travelling at speed IRL might make you slip occasionally (and/or get tired), so I don’t really think it’s “unbelievable” as a concept.

Tigaseye.2047:

So, the OP’s idea of fun is immersion and he doesn’t see why he can’t run dungeons in a different way and still keep-up with others financially.

I don’t see what is wrong with that POV?

The problem with that point of view is that he wants to kitten others just because they’re playing in a way that he doesn’t like. It’s hugely selfish and utterly ridiculous.

Fermi.2409:

Tigaseye.2047:

So, the OP’s idea of fun is immersion and he doesn’t see why he can’t run dungeons in a different way and still keep-up with others financially.

I don’t see what is wrong with that POV?

The problem with that point of view is that he wants to kitten others just because they’re playing in a way that he doesn’t like. It’s hugely selfish and utterly ridiculous.

Well, only if he sees it that way.

Just because you make a suggestion that would nerf other people’s “choices” (like any of this is actually a true “choice” people make, lol), as opposed to buffing your own, doesn’t mean you’re consciously trying to hurt them.

It could just be that a nerf to the OP thing seemed like a better (or more interesting) idea, than a buff to the underpowered thing, to him, at the time.

Doesn’t mean he was, necessarily, sitting there rubbing his hands together in glee at the idea of people’s gold farming being ruined, by them slipping over occasionally.

Although, quite frankly, it is a pretty funny idea.

I guess being shot down in one thread wasn’t enough....

Man Op even admitted to not liking speed clears because it doesn’t suite his style but wants to clear the dungeon in the same time frame with the gold reward, ugh what? Troll much? anyways pure dps is here to stay even when HOT comes out because the dungeons wont be changed anytime soon.

If its the gold you want for the shinies then eat the bullet and learn play zerker to speed clear. You just want the legendary s and expensive stuff OP then get the gold. Pure laziness is what I see. I bet he tried to join a zerker speed clear group and was kicked because he didnt meet the criteria. Just stay away from the elitist and they stay away from PTV/Condi full clears group, all is happy

If ANet were to nerf dungeon speed runs on behalf of those who want to “immerse themselves” in a dungeon and still make the same amount of gold, then they should nerf dungeons for people like me who want to immerse myself in the world by running around and harvesting stuff like onions and iron nodes. I should be able to do that and make the same amount of gold as a dungeon. If that means reducing dungeon gold so my casual harvesting gets me the same amount, well I’m entitled (pun intended) to ask for this.

/s

Dungeons have the same problem that the other infamous game (oh WoW I mentioned it) had and it is because they all have the same type of game model..

Wrath in WOW made all heroic instances a speed race to complete and at the end the game was like playing a character supported by 4 AIs that never talked to each other and this literally destroyed the idea of an MMO to me..

Now the trouble being some people want this or maybe most want this so here we are and all games are being made in this image because it made big money (never mind that this type of game build have in the past few years been failing fast with both WoW and many brought out since)

I do miss the old EQ idea of running a group with differing set ups like a puller, mezzer and healer and the like BUT GW2 would require too much of a rework to make it function like that so I will accept the good with the bad..

I do think they should make it harder to ignore mobs BUT at the same time you have to becareful too or you get the incessant call of “train to zone” all the time (anyone who played EQ in it’s hay day can remember Low guk calls of this nature and you pity the poor fool who zoned in at the wrong time or were afk the the zone)

EcoRI.9273:

First let’s look at the days when FGS elite was dominant, can we can all agree that FGS did the MOST DPS in the game ever? If you examine the past world record runs where FGS was used for damage, most of them are actually over 1minute slower than what it is today. Why? Because instead of using FGS to damage, people are now using FGS to run and as a result has significantly improved their completion time!

I think you are not approaching this from the right direction.

Speed run times may have decreased their time, but that tells nothing of DPS or how fun/enjoyable the dungeons are.

People are not complaining because you can get from one encounter to the other too fast, it’s because you can take out enemies too fast. Swiftness doesn’t really have too much use in a dungeon encounter.

its funny people are still responding to this…

EcoRI was kidding and i think he was trying to show the problem with the complaints against zerker. In that other thread people were complaining about mobility too. Basically when he said lets nerf swiftness etc. everyone said “no you would be ruining the fun of majority for the sake of the minority”. When you say nerf zerker because i want to play a tank, or a healer, or i want to range, etc… its the same thing of ruining the fun of the majority for the sake of the minority. If your argument is that this game needs build diversity seen through a diversity of roles your change will inherently ruin the fun of others. Creating roles in this game would force people to use something other than zerker and so when five people who all want to play glass make a party they wont be able to complete content that requires roles.

Basically build diversity is fine. You can play anything you want and get through content. Dont complain about zerker and force your build onto people who dont want to play it, play with friends who share your views.

Lastly content changes are needed in difficulty but again not in changing roles. They shouldnt make bosses that force you to use a certain class or build. Gw2 is somewhat good at this aspect, but bosses definitely need to be harder. The hardest content should make players want to run PvT but it should still be doable in zerker gear.

the harder you make a boss, the less other then X build is desired.
it’s not about making things harder, easier would really not be a bad idea, it’s about making players use more then one kind of build.

what if there is a boss that has a high defense rating but get’s weaker the more cond’s you apply, or one that tests your own toughness, extreme damage attacks but with a weakness of X damage type.

i could think of a zerk based on the same build as berzerger but in NPC’s, this would put (in theory) place the berserker on an equal level but other builds made to survive could take them out more efficient.
now it’s not about speed, it’s about survival.

that’s the problem with dungeons, you need way to much knowledge of dungeons to even have a chance but at the same time, ones you know the dungeons it’s a walk in a park.
lower the learning curve or at least remove parts that are plain unfair, then make enemies more specific and you’ll see players survive less when they try and rush them but finish them ones they simply play dungeons the way they were meant to be played.

This is a very articulate diagnostic dissection of the problem OP. I can only clap before my PC and hope Anet will finally implement some kind of a solution to tackle this problem.

Harper.4173:

Cuddy.6247:

Maybe mobility is the problem. Enemies aren’t mobile enough. There’s a reason that PvP and PvE have completely different metas, and most of it has to do with enemy AI in PvE being dumber than horse kitten.

Sure – fair – but the average PVE player doesn’t want to go into PVE and be faced with a PVP or near PVP level of AI challenge.

The average PVE player wants to go in and actually beat something without much effort. If they wanted a lot of effort in their PVE we’d be seeing a lot more FOTM 50 players.

So making the AI behave much more like PVP is only a solution if you aiming at alienating a good portion of the community.

Then leave the current state for the “Average” players and give us hard mode back — zones/dungeons with: PVP level mob AI, much bigger mob/boss skill pool with situational (and randomized) usage so there is no way to predict what will be used, mob reset on wipe, positioning mechanic which will require all 5 players doing different thing to progress, SW type of zones with even tougher mechanic (and more failure states), doors/traps/whatever preventing dungeon skipping, anti stack mechanic, make glass cannons really feel like glass cannons, …

Remove 1 hit gimmicks to make mob look dangerous and make the really dangerous if one is not countering them actively during the whole fight, and do that in different ways so just small percent can be countered with simple DPS burn, add requirement for condi pressure, “tank” like mechanic when one needs to take and survive hits (keeping mob busy on him while the rest need to do something else), …

Off course, hard mode should give much better rewards (like 10x better drop chances or guaranteed exotic/T6/whatever).

Sad thing is that with equipment capped and no possibility to overgear (for now at least) designing hard and challenging content is more rewarding as it will not be made obsolete with just gear power creep.

Tigaseye.2047:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Fermi.2409:

EcoRI.9273:

And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.

Dear lord, literally “I don’t like that people can play a way I don’t like, nerf them to my level!”. The ridiculousness is real.

Sad but true.

Nobody’s stopping OP from gearing to make the same kind of money but the OP. Unlike RL, where income is largely influenced by circumstance, the tools are always available to you for use.

Not wanting to use them, but at the same time insisting people who do be punished so you don’t feel less efficient is not only silly, but childish.

I’m not surprised by the mindset. I’m sure a lot more people think the same way, but hide it through circumlocative arguments about why the meta needs fixing.

Game shouldn’t be about making gold.

That is the point.

People who are complaining about lack of enjoyable gameplay in dungeons are not about the gold; that is the entire point.

They want to have fun.

Also, if the game was redesigned to be less cheesable, they could (or should) up the drops, to make up for the fact that dungeons would then take slightly longer

I don’t, necessarily, agree with the OP’s idea of what is ruining dungeons, ATM, but I do applaud his call to make them more interesting.

So if he doesn’t care about the gold and doing the dungeon is his fun – isn’t his fun his own reward? Why does he have to care how much gold I can make?

Tigaseye.2047:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Tigaseye.2047:

Game should be about making gold.

That is the point.

People who are complaining about lack of enjoyable gameplay in dungeons are not about the gold; that is the entire point.

They want to have fun.

Also, if the game was redesigned to be less cheesable, they could (or should) up the drops, to make up for the fact that dungeons would then take slightly longer

I don’t, necessarily, agree with the OP’s idea of what is ruining dungeons, ATM, but I do applaud his call to make them more interesting.

The OP is not asking to make dungeons more interesting. He’s asking for those using the fastest tactics to be slowed down so he can feel like his gold gain is closer to theirs. The OP is not calling for play to be more interesting, his beef is in fact about gold.

That’s not really how I read it.

He says; " People agrue that they would like to run other gears and run dungeons just as fast.".

That, to me, just means that he wants more equality in gear (and/or thinks other people do).

Obviously, people don’t want to intentionally reduce their own effectiveness (that would be silly); but that doesn’t mean they don’t want any choice, at all.

Giving people several viable choices, as opposed to only one right answer and a ton of wrong ones, is good design.

It makes for a fun game.

The problem is that the various stack and skip friendly mechanics in the game + the design of the current dungeons practically dictate everything you do.

From what you can skip, to where you should stack, to what weapons you should use (melee, obviously), to what gear you should use, to what utilities you should use, to what builds…

That is boring, tedious, ill thought-out design and makes the game less enjoyable than it could otherwise be.

This " use this, do this, skip this, wear this" is the definition of a meta. No matter how gear or dungeons are changed there will always be a “do this then that then skip this and use this skill here” procedure type way of approaching content.

A change in how dungeons work will simply make the current dungeon protocol obsolete. It’ll take a few weeks and a new one will be put in place. The steps might be different and their order changed but it will still be a to-do list.

You can’t design content that doesn’t have a “best way of doing it” – and once that best way gets found out people will use it. And enforce it.

Tigaseye.2047:

Fermi.2409:

Tigaseye.2047:

That’s not really how I read it.

He literally came out and said that that’s why he made the topic.

OK, do you mean, here(?):

“And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.”

So, the OP’s idea of fun is immersion and he doesn’t see why he can’t run dungeons in a different way and still keep-up with others financially.

I don’t see what is wrong with that POV?

To me, it is a given that most people won’t want to reduce their own effectiveness, financially.

But, if he was just about maximising profit and not about fun gameplay, he would just suck it up, stick on his Zerker gear, build for DPS, use melee weaps and skip and stack where told to.

He wouldn’t be here complaining, at all, he would just be counting his gold (like most of the rest of you are)…

As long as he doesn’t want some kind of financial advantage over those playing differently, why shouldn’t he ask for more equality?

As I say, not sure I agree with the specific suggestion, but I think it’s fair enough to try to search for solutions.

Because his claim of financial equality is absurd in a game where you can literally BUY GOLD WITH REAL MONEY.
Also the richest players in the game make money OFF THE TRADING POST and not by running dungeons.

I don’t really know of many people that have over 5k gold and still run dungeons regularly for a profit.
Once you have gold you have far, far better ways of making more than running the dungeons over and over again.

nesh.7234:

Then leave the current state for the “Average” players and give us hard mode back — zones/dungeons with: PVP level mob AI, much bigger mob/boss skill pool with situational (and randomized) usage so there is no way to predict what will be used, mob reset on wipe, positioning mechanic which will require all 5 players doing different thing to progress, SW type of zones with even tougher mechanic (and more failure states), doors/traps/whatever preventing dungeon skipping, anti stack mechanic, make glass cannons really feel like glass cannons, …

Remove 1 hit gimmicks to make mob look dangerous and make the really dangerous if one is not countering them actively during the whole fight, and do that in different ways so just small percent can be countered with simple DPS burn, add requirement for condi pressure, “tank” like mechanic when one needs to take and survive hits (keeping mob busy on him while the rest need to do something else), …

Off course, hard mode should give much better rewards (like 10x better drop chances or guaranteed exotic/T6/whatever).

Sad thing is that with equipment capped and no possibility to overgear (for now at least) designing hard and challenging content is more rewarding as it will not be made obsolete with just gear power creep.

Sure – 100% agreed – I want hard mode – I’ve asked for hard mode in innumerable threads.

The problem is Anet has specifically said they have no intention of making a “hard mode” because it would segregate the community in a way they do not want .

Harper.4173:

Tigaseye.2047:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Fermi.2409:

EcoRI.9273:

And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.

Dear lord, literally “I don’t like that people can play a way I don’t like, nerf them to my level!”. The ridiculousness is real.

Sad but true.

Nobody’s stopping OP from gearing to make the same kind of money but the OP. Unlike RL, where income is largely influenced by circumstance, the tools are always available to you for use.

Not wanting to use them, but at the same time insisting people who do be punished so you don’t feel less efficient is not only silly, but childish.

I’m not surprised by the mindset. I’m sure a lot more people think the same way, but hide it through circumlocative arguments about why the meta needs fixing.

Game shouldn’t be about making gold.

That is the point.

People who are complaining about lack of enjoyable gameplay in dungeons are not about the gold; that is the entire point.

They want to have fun.

Also, if the game was redesigned to be less cheesable, they could (or should) up the drops, to make up for the fact that dungeons would then take slightly longer

I don’t, necessarily, agree with the OP’s idea of what is ruining dungeons, ATM, but I do applaud his call to make them more interesting.

So if he doesn’t care about the gold and doing the dungeon is his fun – isn’t his fun his own reward? Why does he have to care how much gold I can make?

Well, yes you’re right, he cares to an extent, because it’s human nature for people to feel somewhat cheated if they can’t make the same amount of money, for the same amount of “work”, as someone else.

It’s more that he still, almost certainly, doesn’t care about it as much as the people who care about nothing else…

He also cares about about having equal choices and immersion (assuming he’s being serious – I know some people think he isn’t), that is the point.

Ultimately, this is supposed to be an enjoyable game, not some kind of horrible job, so ideally you wouldn’t have to sacrifice your fun to maximise your profit.

Ideally, any (legitimate) form of playing the game would reward people equally.

I think that is a fair enough thing to expect game makers to strive for.

Rather than allowing their design to, effectively, divide the community into two groups; the “efficiency is everything” gold farmers, who don’t care if the runs aren’t fun (as long as they’re quick) and everyone else.

Harper.4173:

Because his claim of financial equality is absurd in a game where you can literally BUY GOLD WITH REAL MONEY.
Also the richest players in the game make money OFF THE TRADING POST and not by running dungeons.

I don’t really know of many people that have over 5k gold and still run dungeons regularly for a profit.
Once you have gold you have far, far better ways of making more than running the dungeons over and over again.

IDK about that – in my old guild, people ran dungeons for gold all the time.

Maybe you’re right and some people can make far more gold doing other things.

But that doesn’t mean everyone is doing that, or that no one cares what they make in dungeons, because they clearly do.

I tend to agree with you that it is often easier to just work IRL (especially considering the nightmarish atmosphere of speedruns) and then spend your RL money for ingame stuff.

But considering some of these people may not have RL jobs (maybe they’re too young, for example) and/or may come from parts of the world with lower average incomes, it can and does often matter to them.

Harper.4173:

Tigaseye.2047:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Tigaseye.2047:

Game should be about making gold.

That is the point.

People who are complaining about lack of enjoyable gameplay in dungeons are not about the gold; that is the entire point.

They want to have fun.

Also, if the game was redesigned to be less cheesable, they could (or should) up the drops, to make up for the fact that dungeons would then take slightly longer

I don’t, necessarily, agree with the OP’s idea of what is ruining dungeons, ATM, but I do applaud his call to make them more interesting.

The OP is not asking to make dungeons more interesting. He’s asking for those using the fastest tactics to be slowed down so he can feel like his gold gain is closer to theirs. The OP is not calling for play to be more interesting, his beef is in fact about gold.

That’s not really how I read it.

He says; " People agrue that they would like to run other gears and run dungeons just as fast.".

That, to me, just means that he wants more equality in gear (and/or thinks other people do).

Obviously, people don’t want to intentionally reduce their own effectiveness (that would be silly); but that doesn’t mean they don’t want any choice, at all.

Giving people several viable choices, as opposed to only one right answer and a ton of wrong ones, is good design.

It makes for a fun game.

The problem is that the various stack and skip friendly mechanics in the game + the design of the current dungeons practically dictate everything you do.

From what you can skip, to where you should stack, to what weapons you should use (melee, obviously), to what gear you should use, to what utilities you should use, to what builds…

That is boring, tedious, ill thought-out design and makes the game less enjoyable than it could otherwise be.

This " use this, do this, skip this, wear this" is the definition of a meta. No matter how gear or dungeons are changed there will always be a “do this then that then skip this and use this skill here” procedure type way of approaching content.

A change in how dungeons work will simply make the current dungeon protocol obsolete. It’ll take a few weeks and a new one will be put in place. The steps might be different and their order changed but it will still be a to-do list.

You can’t design content that doesn’t have a “best way of doing it” – and once that best way gets found out people will use it. And enforce it.

No, if you look at a game like WoW, it’s not like that.

Some people like efficiency there, but it’s not anywhere near as draconian, or rigid.

Yes, there are “best ways” to do each boss, or whatever; but there is not an identikit (skip>permastack>melee) way to do virtually every single part of every dungeon ever, like there seems to be in this game.

Not to mention that you can’t stipulate terms, in advance, there – you get who you get.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

To people that see the zerker meta as a problem, literally nobody is forcing you to run it. you can use anything almost anywhere you want The only time this becomes an issue is when someone who does not want to run a dps oriented set tries to join a speedrun (that mentions zerker only in LFG.)

while I agree with your post mostly I have to disagree to this.

If someone wants to go into a dungeon and wants to find a group faster than waiting for hours he basically IS FORCED to use berserker BY THE COMMUNITY.

Yes you can get lucky sometimes and find a few people who think in a similar way to yourself in a few minutes but that’s basically not the norm.

Even if it’s not a speedrun people expect Berserker gear(same people who then die 10 times at every boss because they get hit by everything). And the latter actually is a real problem. I don’t care if speedrunners look for Berserker people. That actually makes sense and isn’t much of a problem in itself because the amount of speed runners should be much lower than the amount of total players interested in PvE.

It also made me stop caring about dungeons. I mean I basically gave in and equipped my elementalist full berserker and I also don’t really want to play in any other way but the attitude of those people itself kittenes me off enough. I’d really like to have the dungeon master achievement but at this point I’m too annoyed to wait hours because everybody leaves as soon as the group dies one or two times.

The community won’t change no matter what. Even removing Berserker items completely won’t change that anymore. If Berserker is removed then the next best thing is the only accepted gear standard.

Just remove dungeons entirely already and all this kitten has an end. And people please stop calling yourself a speedrunner only because you want to get through a dungeon fast. That’s not being a speedrunner. That’s being impatient.

Harper.4173:

Sure – fair – but the average PVE player doesn’t want to go into PVE and be faced with a PVP or near PVP level of AI challenge.

The average PVE player wants to go in and actually beat something without much effort. If they wanted a lot of effort in their PVE we’d be seeing a lot more FOTM 50 players.

So you conclude that just because not that many players are willing to grind FOTM over and over and over again, until they reach level 50, they are there for not interested in challenging PVE content?

That seems like pretty flawed reasoning to me.

Cuddy.6247:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

the tools are always available to you for use.

And are always kittenblocked by the worst RNG loot tables in all of gaming history.

pls tell me how RNG stops you from using FGS as an elite for movement
or from using sword/warhorn on warrior for skipping parts
or form using ports on thief to be faster for skipping parts
or from using any other weapon/utility for movement to be faster in dungeons

what has RNG to do with these tools ????

Harper.4173:

EcoRI.9273:

Kal Spiro.9745:

EcoRI.9273:

Edit: Okay I realized that it was stupid to implement the slip feature just like how it is stupid to implement tank healer in an action MMO game, so I would like to suggest a new moderate solution which is: Whenever you move while under the effects of swiftness you slowly degenerate endurance and whenever you use mobility skills you lose a little bit of endurance.

Does this mean that if you dodge twice you can’t physically use a mobility skill? If you can keep swiftness up long enough to drain all of your endurance does it just stay drained or do you lose swiftness, and again does this disable your ability to use other skills?

I honestly don’t understand what the problem is. Why does a change need to be made? What is wrong with being able to do a dungeon fast if you know all the intricacies of that dungeon? I want more options in how I complete content, I don’t want restrictions in how I can complete content. Mobile characters are supposed to be mobile, it’s the design of the character, and that includes being able to dodge twice across the board.

Mobility skills consumes a little bit of endurance, swiftness ends if you run out of endurance.

And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.

So play with your own type of player and don’t mingle with the rest.
This is a classic case of " change the game for everyone so it can be more like I’d like it because I can’t be bothered to make my own groups and find people like myself".

You’re sad that others are making more money? Wow – what can I say.

Have you considered that you can’t have your cake and eat it? You can play the way you want or you can make more money. You really want it all don’t you?

Just wow.

Also OP don’t the people who make TONS of money on the TP bother you? Doesn’t it bother you that with a bit of real life cash people can make tons more money than you can in dungeons?
Or by flipping items or crafting various items like ascended insignias?
And worst of all – they’re not even moving whilst doing it!!!

Well obviously its because you have your cake and you are eating it and im here to tell mommy anet to give me some and you being a selfish person wont have any of that so here you here getting angry at anything that will take your cake away

Harper.4173:

Cuddy.6247:

Maybe mobility is the problem. Enemies aren’t mobile enough. There’s a reason that PvP and PvE have completely different metas, and most of it has to do with enemy AI in PvE being dumber than horse kitten.

Sure – fair – but the average PVE player doesn’t want to go into PVE and be faced with a PVP or near PVP level of AI challenge.

The average PVE player wants to go in and actually beat something without much effort. If they wanted a lot of effort in their PVE we’d be seeing a lot more FOTM 50 players.

So making the AI behave much more like PVP is only a solution if you aiming at alienating a good portion of the community.

Then you’ll love Reaper. If ANet’s hype stands to reason, the exploitation of PvE AI will be unimaginable.

Nanashi.6297:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

To people that see the zerker meta as a problem, literally nobody is forcing you to run it. you can use anything almost anywhere you want The only time this becomes an issue is when someone who does not want to run a dps oriented set tries to join a speedrun (that mentions zerker only in LFG.)

[Reasonable response]

Just remove dungeons entirely already and all this kitten has an end. .

I understand your issue with people trying to wear pants too big for them in attempting to run zerker when they dont know dungeon mechanics, but if you’re willing to nuke dungeons to solve the problem you shouldnt have an issue with just not doing them at all.

As for zerker wannabes being the norm, I dont know about that. I’ve had large success with “newbie welcome/ all gear welcome / non-speedrun” LFG tags in my past few dungeons. If there really are unavoidable slews of people exploding because they cant dodge and wont gear down, then the people need to be looked at at most, not the meta.

Orangensaft.7139:

Cuddy.6247:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

the tools are always available to you for use.

And are always kittenblocked by the worst RNG loot tables in all of gaming history.

pls tell me how RNG stops you from using FGS as an elite for movement
or from using sword/warhorn on warrior for skipping parts
or form using ports on thief to be faster for skipping parts
or from using any other weapon/utility for movement to be faster in dungeons

what has RNG to do with these tools ????

He missed the point. I’m guessing he has some kind of hangup with loot tables.

EcoRI.9273:

Well obviously its because you have your cake and you are eating it and im here to tell mommy anet to give me some and you being a selfish person wont have any of that so here you here getting angry at anything that will take your cake away

Dunno what you’re talking about.

Zerker = No armor, big damage = Quick speedruns with wipe risk greatly increased = Faster gold if run perfectly

Toughness oriented = Some armor, less damage = Slower speedruns ,wipe risk greatly reduced = Slower gold, mistakes allowed.

Youll have to explain who has the best of both worlds without putting in significant effort.

Tigaseye.2047:

Ideally, any (legitimate) form of playing the game would reward people equally.

This I cannot agree with – for a game to be fun people have to feel like their skill, aptitude and improvement matter.
If I take hundreds of hours playing, iterating and improving my build and myself I wouldn’t enjoy it very much to see someone just facerolling the keyboard and getting equal rewards.

It invalidates the whole concept of skilled play – it’s a very communist approach to gaming – and communism doesn’t really work in any situation.

Plus – Guild Wars 2 already does this reward equality quite well. You could dungeon run pretty hard and with a good party and make some money. You can make roughly the same amount in the same amount of time doing Silverwastes chest farming, or other open world farm where you basically have to press 1 and tag and nothing else.

I would say it’s pretty equal like that.

Also the efficiency is everything gold running attitude has nothing to do with having fun or not. Because fun is where you make it – for me fun is getting gold. So it is fun for me – but not in the same way it would be fun for you.

Tigaseye.2047:

Harper.4173:

Because his claim of financial equality is absurd in a game where you can literally BUY GOLD WITH REAL MONEY.
Also the richest players in the game make money OFF THE TRADING POST and not by running dungeons.

I don’t really know of many people that have over 5k gold and still run dungeons regularly for a profit.
Once you have gold you have far, far better ways of making more than running the dungeons over and over again.

IDK about that – in my old guild, people ran dungeons for gold all the time.

Maybe you’re right and some people can make far more gold doing other things.

But that doesn’t mean everyone is doing that, or that no one cares what they make in dungeons, because they clearly do.

I tend to agree with you that it is often easier to just work IRL (especially considering the nightmarish atmosphere of speedruns) and then spend your RL money for ingame stuff.

But considering some of these people may not have RL jobs (maybe they’re too young, for example) and/or may come from parts of the world with lower average incomes, it can and does often matter to them.

Harper.4173:

Tigaseye.2047:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Tigaseye.2047:

Game should be about making gold.

That is the point.

People who are complaining about lack of enjoyable gameplay in dungeons are not about the gold; that is the entire point.

They want to have fun.

Also, if the game was redesigned to be less cheesable, they could (or should) up the drops, to make up for the fact that dungeons would then take slightly longer

I don’t, necessarily, agree with the OP’s idea of what is ruining dungeons, ATM, but I do applaud his call to make them more interesting.

The OP is not asking to make dungeons more interesting. He’s asking for those using the fastest tactics to be slowed down so he can feel like his gold gain is closer to theirs. The OP is not calling for play to be more interesting, his beef is in fact about gold.

That’s not really how I read it.

He says; " People agrue that they would like to run other gears and run dungeons just as fast.".

That, to me, just means that he wants more equality in gear (and/or thinks other people do).

Obviously, people don’t want to intentionally reduce their own effectiveness (that would be silly); but that doesn’t mean they don’t want any choice, at all.

Giving people several viable choices, as opposed to only one right answer and a ton of wrong ones, is good design.

It makes for a fun game.

The problem is that the various stack and skip friendly mechanics in the game + the design of the current dungeons practically dictate everything you do.

From what you can skip, to where you should stack, to what weapons you should use (melee, obviously), to what gear you should use, to what utilities you should use, to what builds…

That is boring, tedious, ill thought-out design and makes the game less enjoyable than it could otherwise be.

This " use this, do this, skip this, wear this" is the definition of a meta. No matter how gear or dungeons are changed there will always be a “do this then that then skip this and use this skill here” procedure type way of approaching content.

A change in how dungeons work will simply make the current dungeon protocol obsolete. It’ll take a few weeks and a new one will be put in place. The steps might be different and their order changed but it will still be a to-do list.

You can’t design content that doesn’t have a “best way of doing it” – and once that best way gets found out people will use it. And enforce it.

No, if you look at a game like WoW, it’s not like that.

Some people like efficiency there, but it’s not anywhere near as draconian, or rigid.

Yes, there are “best ways” to do each boss, or whatever; but there is not an identikit (skip>permastack>melee) way to do virtually every single part of every dungeon ever, like there seems to be in this game.

Not to mention that you can’t stipulate terms, in advance, there – you get who you get.

They do care about what gold people make in the dungeons – I was trying to point out that they in fact don’t care about financial equality – since the highlights of this inequality in game is not casual player vs hardcore dungeon runner.
It is non-gemstore player vs gemstore player who buys gold.
It is non-TP flipper vs person who flips.

I find it absurd they get mad abut a person making 3-4 more gold in the same amount of time doing dungeons but hardly care that I’m making 4-5 gold per day through the TP without touching any content by just crafting stuff.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Harper.4173:

Sure – fair – but the average PVE player doesn’t want to go into PVE and be faced with a PVP or near PVP level of AI challenge.

The average PVE player wants to go in and actually beat something without much effort. If they wanted a lot of effort in their PVE we’d be seeing a lot more FOTM 50 players.

So you conclude that just because not that many players are willing to grind FOTM over and over and over again, until they reach level 50, they are there for not interested in challenging PVE content?

That seems like pretty flawed reasoning to me.

I can conclude that the overall lack of players in fractals – not just level 50 – concludes that not a lot of people are interested in challenging PVE content.

At least not for the challenge itself.

How many LFG dungeon runs do you see compared to FOTM runs?

I know FOTM – i know it well – been doing it a really long time very consistently.

Even at release most people didn’t bother with it most of the time. They did for a while because it was the only way to get your rings – but beyond that very few cared and bothered with it.

You can argue with me all you want but you know very well FOTM has very limited appeal to the overall player base.

EcoRI.9273:

Harper.4173:

EcoRI.9273:

Kal Spiro.9745:

EcoRI.9273:

Edit: Okay I realized that it was stupid to implement the slip feature just like how it is stupid to implement tank healer in an action MMO game, so I would like to suggest a new moderate solution which is: Whenever you move while under the effects of swiftness you slowly degenerate endurance and whenever you use mobility skills you lose a little bit of endurance.

Does this mean that if you dodge twice you can’t physically use a mobility skill? If you can keep swiftness up long enough to drain all of your endurance does it just stay drained or do you lose swiftness, and again does this disable your ability to use other skills?

I honestly don’t understand what the problem is. Why does a change need to be made? What is wrong with being able to do a dungeon fast if you know all the intricacies of that dungeon? I want more options in how I complete content, I don’t want restrictions in how I can complete content. Mobile characters are supposed to be mobile, it’s the design of the character, and that includes being able to dodge twice across the board.

Mobility skills consumes a little bit of endurance, swiftness ends if you run out of endurance.

And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.

So play with your own type of player and don’t mingle with the rest.
This is a classic case of " change the game for everyone so it can be more like I’d like it because I can’t be bothered to make my own groups and find people like myself".

You’re sad that others are making more money? Wow – what can I say.

Have you considered that you can’t have your cake and eat it? You can play the way you want or you can make more money. You really want it all don’t you?

Just wow.

Also OP don’t the people who make TONS of money on the TP bother you? Doesn’t it bother you that with a bit of real life cash people can make tons more money than you can in dungeons?
Or by flipping items or crafting various items like ascended insignias?
And worst of all – they’re not even moving whilst doing it!!!

Well obviously its because you have your cake and you are eating it and im here to tell mommy anet to give me some and you being a selfish person wont have any of that so here you here getting angry at anything that will take your cake away

It’s not my cake you are taking away – you are ruining everybody else’s cake. I hope you are trolling but in case you are not – know that I would rather burn down the cake and surrounding house rather than let you have another slice.

Cuddy.6247:

Harper.4173:

Cuddy.6247:

Maybe mobility is the problem. Enemies aren’t mobile enough. There’s a reason that PvP and PvE have completely different metas, and most of it has to do with enemy AI in PvE being dumber than horse kitten.

Sure – fair – but the average PVE player doesn’t want to go into PVE and be faced with a PVP or near PVP level of AI challenge.

The average PVE player wants to go in and actually beat something without much effort. If they wanted a lot of effort in their PVE we’d be seeing a lot more FOTM 50 players.

So making the AI behave much more like PVP is only a solution if you aiming at alienating a good portion of the community.

Then you’ll love Reaper. If ANet’s hype stands to reason, the exploitation of PvE AI will be unimaginable.

Pretty much. I don’t expect anything else.
Reworking the game’s entire AI at this point is something I doubt they will do.

They’ll have an easier time balancing through scaling or other means -but reworking the AI is not something I believe they can or will do.
They might add better AI to the x-pack mobs – but for the core game I believe what we have is what we get.

EcoRI.9273:

Harper.4173:

EcoRI.9273:

Kal Spiro.9745:

EcoRI.9273:

Edit: Okay I realized that it was stupid to implement the slip feature just like how it is stupid to implement tank healer in an action MMO game, so I would like to suggest a new moderate solution which is: Whenever you move while under the effects of swiftness you slowly degenerate endurance and whenever you use mobility skills you lose a little bit of endurance.

Does this mean that if you dodge twice you can’t physically use a mobility skill? If you can keep swiftness up long enough to drain all of your endurance does it just stay drained or do you lose swiftness, and again does this disable your ability to use other skills?

I honestly don’t understand what the problem is. Why does a change need to be made? What is wrong with being able to do a dungeon fast if you know all the intricacies of that dungeon? I want more options in how I complete content, I don’t want restrictions in how I can complete content. Mobile characters are supposed to be mobile, it’s the design of the character, and that includes being able to dodge twice across the board.

Mobility skills consumes a little bit of endurance, swiftness ends if you run out of endurance.

And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.

So play with your own type of player and don’t mingle with the rest.
This is a classic case of " change the game for everyone so it can be more like I’d like it because I can’t be bothered to make my own groups and find people like myself".

You’re sad that others are making more money? Wow – what can I say.

Have you considered that you can’t have your cake and eat it? You can play the way you want or you can make more money. You really want it all don’t you?

Just wow.

Also OP don’t the people who make TONS of money on the TP bother you? Doesn’t it bother you that with a bit of real life cash people can make tons more money than you can in dungeons?
Or by flipping items or crafting various items like ascended insignias?
And worst of all – they’re not even moving whilst doing it!!!

Well obviously its because you have your cake and you are eating it and im here to tell mommy anet to give me some and you being a selfish person wont have any of that so here you here getting angry at anything that will take your cake away

Well you have been given many options for getting cake and you don’t seem to like any of them so you just want to knock the cake out of every one else’s hand. Does that sound very fair to you?

bloodletting wolf.2837:

EcoRI.9273:

Harper.4173:

EcoRI.9273:

Kal Spiro.9745:

EcoRI.9273:

Edit: Okay I realized that it was stupid to implement the slip feature just like how it is stupid to implement tank healer in an action MMO game, so I would like to suggest a new moderate solution which is: Whenever you move while under the effects of swiftness you slowly degenerate endurance and whenever you use mobility skills you lose a little bit of endurance.

Does this mean that if you dodge twice you can’t physically use a mobility skill? If you can keep swiftness up long enough to drain all of your endurance does it just stay drained or do you lose swiftness, and again does this disable your ability to use other skills?

I honestly don’t understand what the problem is. Why does a change need to be made? What is wrong with being able to do a dungeon fast if you know all the intricacies of that dungeon? I want more options in how I complete content, I don’t want restrictions in how I can complete content. Mobile characters are supposed to be mobile, it’s the design of the character, and that includes being able to dodge twice across the board.

Mobility skills consumes a little bit of endurance, swiftness ends if you run out of endurance.

And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.

So play with your own type of player and don’t mingle with the rest.
This is a classic case of " change the game for everyone so it can be more like I’d like it because I can’t be bothered to make my own groups and find people like myself".

You’re sad that others are making more money? Wow – what can I say.

Have you considered that you can’t have your cake and eat it? You can play the way you want or you can make more money. You really want it all don’t you?

Just wow.

Also OP don’t the people who make TONS of money on the TP bother you? Doesn’t it bother you that with a bit of real life cash people can make tons more money than you can in dungeons?
Or by flipping items or crafting various items like ascended insignias?
And worst of all – they’re not even moving whilst doing it!!!

Well obviously its because you have your cake and you are eating it and im here to tell mommy anet to give me some and you being a selfish person wont have any of that so here you here getting angry at anything that will take your cake away

Well you have been given many options for getting cake and you don’t seem to like any of them so you just want to knock the cake out of every one else’s hand. Does that sound very fair to you?

Who is everyone exactly? Down with the 1%! #OccupySpeedRun.

See, hes a troll, everyone out.

Did not read lol.

Pls add sprint to gw2 \o/ this way you can run faster (lets say 50% faster) and degenerate endurance without making swiftness a debuff

Orangensaft.7139:

Cuddy.6247:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

the tools are always available to you for use.

And are always kittenblocked by the worst RNG loot tables in all of gaming history.

pls tell me how RNG stops you from using FGS as an elite for movement
or from using sword/warhorn on warrior for skipping parts
or form using ports on thief to be faster for skipping parts
or from using any other weapon/utility for movement to be faster in dungeons

what has RNG to do with these tools ????

Tools are meant to improve performance. Performance can basically be reduced to this: Maximized output for input. The RNG wall effectively kittenblocks any necessity for improved performance. Skipping is not an essential part of efficiency because speedclearing has no real benefit. Please, don’t be dense and try to think for yourself.

EcoRI.9273:

Who is everyone exactly? Down with the 1%! #OccupySpeedRun.

Hue

Also:

Cuddy.6247:

Orangensaft.7139:

Cuddy.6247:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

the tools are always available to you for use.

And are always kittenblocked by the worst RNG loot tables in all of gaming history.

pls tell me how RNG stops you from using FGS as an elite for movement
or from using sword/warhorn on warrior for skipping parts
or form using ports on thief to be faster for skipping parts
or from using any other weapon/utility for movement to be faster in dungeons

what has RNG to do with these tools ????

.The RNG wall effectively kittenblocks any necessity for improved performance. Skipping is not an essential part of efficiency because speedclearing has no real benefit. Please, don’t be dense and try to think for yourself.

Just in case you are confused, the “tools” I am mentioning are any item used to reduce time that it takes to clear a dungeon. The RNG aspect of items dropped from bags does not negate the fact that you tend to make more money if you complete the same dungeon faster (or complete the dungeon more times in the same span of time) than someone who is not speedrunning.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Just in case you are confused, the “tools” I am mentioning are any item used to reduce time that it takes to clear a dungeon. The RNG aspect of items dropped from bags does not negate the fact that you tend to make more money if you complete the same dungeon faster (or complete the dungeon more times in the same span of time) than someone who is not speedrunning.

Exactly how does speedclearing improve your rewards? Oh right, it doesn’t. If you want to make more: get a job, get another job, get a better job or play the trading post. Speedclearing is a joke.

Cuddy.6247:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Just in case you are confused, the “tools” I am mentioning are any item used to reduce time that it takes to clear a dungeon. The RNG aspect of items dropped from bags does not negate the fact that you tend to make more money if you complete the same dungeon faster (or complete the dungeon more times in the same span of time) than someone who is not speedrunning.

Exactly how does speedclearing improve your rewards? Oh right, it doesn’t. If you want to make more: get a job, get another job, get a better job or play the trading post. Speedclearing is a joke.

lets be real, playing the trading post and using money to buy things in gw2 breaks the immersion.

Harper.4173:

Tigaseye.2047:

Ideally, any (legitimate) form of playing the game would reward people equally.

This I cannot agree with – for a game to be fun people have to feel like their skill, aptitude and improvement matter.
If I take hundreds of hours playing, iterating and improving my build and myself I wouldn’t enjoy it very much to see someone just facerolling the keyboard and getting equal rewards.

It invalidates the whole concept of skilled play – it’s a very communist approach to gaming – and communism doesn’t really work in any situation.

Plus – Guild Wars 2 already does this reward equality quite well. You could dungeon run pretty hard and with a good party and make some money. You can make roughly the same amount in the same amount of time doing Silverwastes chest farming, or other open world farm where you basically have to press 1 and tag and nothing else.

I would say it’s pretty equal like that.

Also the efficiency is everything gold running attitude has nothing to do with having fun or not. Because fun is where you make it – for me fun is getting gold. So it is fun for me – but not in the same way it would be fun for you.

Hold on…

I’m not talking about any level of skill being equally rewarded.

I’m talking about any viable way of playing the game, or choice (played to the same level of skill), being equally rewarded.

But, this is the fundamental problem, here.

I don’t view choosing stuff from a list of choices as “skill”.

Or, more likely, just finding guides online and copying them; or straight-out being told what you should pick, by other players.

If you then actually play in a way that maximises the potential of your “choices” (whether they are actually your choices, or not…), then I can agree there is a certain amount of skill in that, however.

So, I’m saying that there is an issue, if only one “choice” is correct, because that doesn’t identify level of player skill, at all; that just restricts true choice.

For example, as a ranger (and a hunter in WoW), I want to play with a bow all the time.

But, that simply isn’t a viable choice in speedruns, as it doesn’t fit in with the skip>permastack>melee thing (due to ranged weapons doing less damage at short range).

So it doesn’t matter how well I might eventually play it and how well I might try to maximise my bow playing potential; it isn’t ever going to be viable, in a dungeon group, unless things are changed.

Restricting people like that and enforcing only one “right” choice is bad design.

…and I’m sorry, but a game should be an enjoyable experience.

If you only enjoy getting rewards, that is fine too, but that should never be at the expense of other people enjoying the actual gaming experience.

Obviously, over time, even the best gaming experiences will become stale.

But, you should never be in a situation, where the first time someone does an instance they find it boring, if they do as they’re told, due to the fundamental game, weapon and traitline design favouring certain very limited things and the super-dull playing methods employed as a result.

That is an insane situation and something I have never experienced before this game.

Tigaseye.2047:

Hold on…

I’m not talking about any level of skill being equally rewarded.

I’m talking about any viable way of playing the game, or choice (played to the same level of skill), being equally rewarded.

But, this is the fundamental problem, here.

I don’t view choosing stuff from a list of choices as “skill”.

Or, more likely, just finding guides online and copying them; or straight-out being told what you should pick, by other players.

If you then actually play in a way that maximises the potential of your “choices” (whether they are actually your choices, or not…), then I can agree there is a certain amount of skill in that, however.

So, I’m saying that there is an issue, if only one “choice” is correct, because that doesn’t identify level of player skill, at all; that just restricts true choice.

For example, as a ranger (and a hunter in WoW), I want to play with a bow all the time.

But, that simply isn’t a viable choice in speedruns, as it doesn’t fit in with the skip>permastack>melee thing (due to ranged weapons doing less damage at short range).

So it doesn’t matter how well I might eventually play it and how well I might try to maximise my bow playing potential; it isn’t ever going to be viable, in a dungeon group, unless things are changed.

Restricting people like that and enforcing only one “right” choice is bad design.

…and I’m sorry, but a game should be an enjoyable experience.

If you only enjoy getting rewards, that is fine too, but that should never be at the expense of other people enjoying the actual gaming experience.

Obviously, over time, even the best gaming experiences will become stale.

But, you should never be in a situation, where the first time someone does an instance they find it boring, if they do as they’re told, due to the fundamental game, weapon and traitline design favouring certain very limited things and the super-dull playing methods employed as a result.

That is an insane situation and something I have never experienced before this game.

So, there’s no longer a meta in the hardest content in WoW? There sure used to be, and deviations were no more welcome than they are here.

If you’re talking blind draw LFG and LFR, then that’s not meta because its’ not the hardest content. It’s kind of the equivalent of using the GW2 LFG and saying, “AC P2, Anything Goes” and playing with people who don’t care about the meta. GW2 dungeon explorable paths were supposed to be the hardest content in the game. They still are, if you go in with a bunch of people who’ve never done them.

You won’t get as much reward that way? Iirc, LFR does not provide the same rewards as heroic raids, either.

Cuddy.6247:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Just in case you are confused, the “tools” I am mentioning are any item used to reduce time that it takes to clear a dungeon. The RNG aspect of items dropped from bags does not negate the fact that you tend to make more money if you complete the same dungeon faster (or complete the dungeon more times in the same span of time) than someone who is not speedrunning.

Exactly how does speedclearing improve your rewards? Oh right, it doesn’t. If you want to make more: get a job, get another job, get a better job or play the trading post. Speedclearing is a joke.

Lol.

Speed clearing is easier than learning to play the trading post or getting a job. It is less effective but easier to do.

If you play 3 hours per day and manage to do all dungeons vs half the dungeons in that time then you are more effective.
I’m surprised this needed typing out.

Tigaseye.2047:

But, this is the fundamental problem, here.
I don’t view choosing stuff from a list of choices as “skill”.
Or, more likely, just finding guides online and copying them; or straight-out being told what you should pick, by other players.

Using these takes skill – my friend that recently started the game was told what to pick and what to do and still couldn’t because she lacked the skill.

I’m not talking about learning what to do – I’m talking about the skill needed to actually do them.

So, I’m saying that there is an issue, if only one “choice” is correct, because that doesn’t identify level of player skill, at all; that just restricts true choice.

All choices are correct depending on what you want to do but some of them require more player skill to play.

A zerker set doesn’t forgive you if you fail to notice a boss’ tell, fail to dodge, fail to position yourself well, fail to heal at the right time and make optimal use of your healing skill, fail to use your active defense.

Other sets do – they forgive these mistakes the more healy and tanky the sets are.

That is why generally playing a full zerker set-up requires more of a player than playing full knights. You need to be much more aware, much more on-point and in the zone to perform and not die.

For example, as a ranger (and a hunter in WoW), I want to play with a bow all the time.
But, that simply isn’t a viable choice in speedruns, as it doesn’t fit in with the skip>permastack>melee thing (due to ranged weapons doing less damage at short range).
So it doesn’t matter how well I might eventually play it and how well I might try to maximise my bow playing potential; it isn’t ever going to be viable, in a dungeon group, unless things are changed.

The problem here is this : the game is designed to reward skilled play – melee takes more skill than ranged because since you’re closer to the boss not only can he reach you more frequently but the time interval that you can react to what he does is smaller.
So melee is rewarded with more damage – because it is objectively harder to melee a boss to death in GW2 than range him.

Now – given the current system your problem is you want to roleplay with a group that doesn’t care about roleplaying.

You’re going into efficiency driven runs and demanding you play your less effective set-up – and then you get upset when people don’t want that. The reason they don’t want that is that you have different goals – you want to play your ranger bow while they want to play for maximum profit.

The solution is very simple – find people that want to play your way and play with them.

Restricting people like that and enforcing only one “right” choice is bad design.

It’s not the game’s design that is restricting you – your build is still viable and can complete – it is other people that are restricting you and other people are not part of game design.

Even if the design were changed – as long as you want diversity you’ll have more ways of doing something and as long as you have more ways there will always be a better way – which people who care about farming and efficiency will find and use and demand you use if you want to play with them.

The core problem here is that you’re trying to play with people that see the game and want to play it in a totally different way than you do.

…and I’m sorry, but a game should be an enjoyable experience.

And it might surprise you but for them their way of playing the game is the enjoyable way and yours is the one breaking their fun.

If you only enjoy getting rewards, that is fine too, but that should never be at the expense of other people enjoying the actual gaming experience.

Each player has a right to play this game the way they want in order to enjoy themselves.
If I only enjoy playing with people like myself then that’s my right and I’m free to do it.

Also there is no right “actual gaming experience” – just different enjoyable aspects of the game. So nobody is playing the game “the right way” just the way they enjoy.

But, you should never be in a situation, where the first time someone does an instance they find it boring, if they do as they’re told, due to the fundamental game, weapon and traitline design favouring certain very limited things and the super-dull playing methods employed as a result.

Welcome to MMOs – where the real excitement is at launch and everything after is less “fun”.

Tigaseye.2047:

But, that simply isn’t a viable choice in speedruns, as it doesn’t fit in with the skip>permastack>melee thing (due to ranged weapons doing less damage at short range).

Gonna be a bit pedantic here but the bolded statement is only true about Ranger Longbow and Mesmer Greatsword auto attack. All other weapon skills on the Longbow do the same amount of damage if they’re cast at 200 range or 900 range.

Also the name Ranger describes someone who “ranges over an area” as in wanders far and wide (go to example is Aragorn form Lord of the Rings but you could also take Drizzt from DnD lore (uses twin swords I believe?)) and not someone who is solely an Archer.

Harper.4173:

Cuddy.6247:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Just in case you are confused, the “tools” I am mentioning are any item used to reduce time that it takes to clear a dungeon. The RNG aspect of items dropped from bags does not negate the fact that you tend to make more money if you complete the same dungeon faster (or complete the dungeon more times in the same span of time) than someone who is not speedrunning.

Exactly how does speedclearing improve your rewards? Oh right, it doesn’t. If you want to make more: get a job, get another job, get a better job or play the trading post. Speedclearing is a joke.

Lol.

Speed clearing is easier than learning to play the trading post or getting a job. It is less effective but easier to do.

If you play 3 hours per day and manage to do all dungeons vs half the dungeons in that time then you are more effective.
I’m surprised this needed typing out.

Easier than getting a job? You must be out of your mind, because I get paid a nice wage +benefits and 2/5 days a week I just look up videos on YouTube to pass the time. If getting a job was really that difficult, it wouldn’t be an expectation for every person over the age of 16 to have one.

Once you foot your way through the door, it’s even easier to pick up hours too – take over coworker’s shifts, be a model employee that your boss loves, etc. It’s not difficult. The next time your three hour dungeon tour nets you 250 gold, come talk to me.

Cuddy.6247:

Harper.4173:

Cuddy.6247:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Just in case you are confused, the “tools” I am mentioning are any item used to reduce time that it takes to clear a dungeon. The RNG aspect of items dropped from bags does not negate the fact that you tend to make more money if you complete the same dungeon faster (or complete the dungeon more times in the same span of time) than someone who is not speedrunning.

Exactly how does speedclearing improve your rewards? Oh right, it doesn’t. If you want to make more: get a job, get another job, get a better job or play the trading post. Speedclearing is a joke.

Lol.

Speed clearing is easier than learning to play the trading post or getting a job. It is less effective but easier to do.

If you play 3 hours per day and manage to do all dungeons vs half the dungeons in that time then you are more effective.
I’m surprised this needed typing out.

Easier than getting a job? You must be out of your mind, because I get paid a nice wage +benefits and 2/5 days a week I just look up videos on YouTube to pass the time. If getting a job was really that difficult, it wouldn’t be an expectation for every person over the age of 16 to have one.

Once you foot your way through the door, it’s even easier to pick up hours too – take over coworker’s shifts, be a model employee that your boss loves, etc. It’s not difficult. The next time your three hour dungeon tour nets you 250 gold, come talk to me.

We just witnessed the end of gaming everybody.