Guild Wars 2

Morality? I think they have none.

When I walk in Divinity Reach, I see passionated developpers working on NPCs, details, amazing landscapes, as well as when I walk in Queensdale. Water, trees, events, everything seems joyful.

And then I press “O”, and I only see one thing, a small and shiny gem icon. Behind that, I see a single guy, cold, alone, thinking about serious business, hating videogames in general. And that guy is taking a look on GW2 ; there are millions of players. “Millions of stupid people…” would he say. “Ha! Videogames have no point”. And then, to him, those millions players only exist for one thing ; making him rich.
Making him, single guy, leader of a company, rich.

And then, I read some GW2 developers interview on Internet. “Passionated developpers, that’s awesome!”, I think. And then I look again this shiny gem icon. “There’s something wrong”. “It doesn’t fit with it”.

And then, Ascended Gears comes. People start talking about Nexon… on GW2 forums. Gem Store is getting bigger and bigger…

Where is morality there? Are we just consumers using a product? Or gamers playing GUILD WARS 2? If a team like Arenanet can be corrupted like this, in like 1 month, after 7 years of pure game-making, what game company cannot anymore? Are MMOs all meant to be corrupted like this, or do we have to play Wii do avoid a shop? Are all games meant to be played by millions of players to make rich, one single guy?

Now, when I walk in Queensdale, I just don’t know what to think…
I’ll just stop there and let you to your thoughts.

Video games have to make money or they are not going to exist. It does not have to be an extreme between total art and total profiteering. However, in this game, there are very valid reasons you feel that way. We indeed are being treated as gullible pigeons and it is downright dismal that they have devs and other nominally creative people on here spinning ripoffs as some type of innovative art.

I am confused…

What about when you go out to a restaurant? Are you also thinking about the guy that owns the restaurant? What about the company that makes your car, or your clothes, or your toothpaste? Everything is made by somebody, and somebody gets rich off of it. Even in purely socialistic countries there is a wealthy elite that has the power and controls everything.

There once dawned an age of enlightenment. Gamers were free to frolick, unhindered, and rightly so through the one game to end them all, never allowed for one moment to be discontent – for their hearts were pure and their adventures were legendary.

But what comes?! Hark! Upon pressing ‘O’ one finds a shadow of doubt, of relentless evil. At its fore, bathed in the shadows of deceit and wickedness, one vile creature exists with one sole purpose – To consume your hard-earned dollars! His name.. His name will go down in infamy, but is seldom spoken aloud. Baron … Uhh… Baron Von Dark Mcbloodfist!

Think about it, my fellow adventurers! If you choose to optionally to support your game, you are supporting Baron Von Dark Mcbloodfist! No one would support him, he’s very evil! And bad. And also a huge drag at parties!

Paid for by the Tyrian Association in Support of Subscription Fees.

StormGryffen.7638:

There once dawned an age of enlightenment. Gamers were free to frolick, unhindered, and rightly so through the one game to end them all, never allowed for one moment to be discontent – for their hearts were pure and their adventures were legendary.

But what comes?! Hark! Upon pressing ‘O’ one finds a shadow of doubt, of relentless evil. At its fore, bathed in the shadows of deceit and wickedness, one vile creature exists with one sole purpose – To consume your hard-earned dollars! His name.. His name will go down in infamy, but is seldom spoken aloud. Baron … Uhh… Baron Von Dark Mcbloodfist!

Think about it, my fellow adventurers! If you choose to optionally to support your game, you are supporting Baron Von Dark Mcbloodfist! No one would support him, he’s very evil! And bad. And also a huge drag at parties!

Paid for by the Tyrian Association in Support of Subscription Fees.

Hey I love that ad!

I heard the other one was fun too, about Trehearne and how he left good people to die on Claw Island so he could head the Pact.

Man I hate that guy, why haven’t they brought him up on war crimes yet?

I like the cash shop concept, but there needs to be more permanence in purchase. Stat grinds tend to negate permanence.

As elsbeth said, video games are out to make money. Everyone working for that company needs to get paid to keep a gaming running.

If they were so greedy, they would charge a monthly fee. Instead you by the game and play for FREE. The gem store is entirely up to YOU to use. If you think they’re greedy, stop buying stuff. I, personally, buy stuff because I love the game and want to support it. I want the developers to continue adding and fixing this game and I understand they can’t do that for free.

If you’re seeing all that from the gem store, all I can say is wow.

Ualtar.5047:

I am confused…

What about when you go out to a restaurant? Are you also thinking about the guy that owns the restaurant? What about the company that makes your car, or your clothes, or your toothpaste? Everything is made by somebody, and somebody gets rich off of it. Even in purely socialistic countries there is a wealthy elite that has the power and controls everything.

Yes, but let’s say a restaurant has a lot of success, it doesn’t increase prices. Water is free, if there’s more people going into the restaurant, water will remain free.

However, isn’t a such success the worst thing you can hope for a game like GW2? the more there are players, the more there are dollars-eyed flies flying around the developpers, the more sales expectations are rising and the more cash shop is growing terrible.

Please, players, leave this game >.<

Keiran.1896:

Ualtar.5047:

I am confused…

What about when you go out to a restaurant? Are you also thinking about the guy that owns the restaurant? What about the company that makes your car, or your clothes, or your toothpaste? Everything is made by somebody, and somebody gets rich off of it. Even in purely socialistic countries there is a wealthy elite that has the power and controls everything.

Yes, but let’s say a restaurant has a lot of success, it doesn’t increase prices. Water is free, if there’s more people going into the restaurant, water will remain free.

However, isn’t a such success the worst thing you can hope for a game like GW2? the more there are players, the more there are dollars-eyed flies flying around the developpers, the more sales expectations are rising and the more cash shop is growing terrible.

Please, players, leave this game >.<

Well….yes….but you can still play this game without using the gem store…

So confused….

Video games indeed have to make money, but you can’t forgo game philosophy if you plan on making long term money or having repeat customers.

Pulling bait and switch is good for scam artists, not businesses who wish to have brand recognition and respect of customer.

I honestly blame the general public for being so forgiving and forgetful. Corporations feel the public is dumb, and we prove them right everyday. If we actually hold them responsible instead of just having a reaction that will promote change.

When a “content monetizing consultant” can simply broad swipe thousands of people knowing there will be no recourse there is no consumer respect.

We’re all a bunch of Skritt to them, and until we stop being mind kittened by the shiny things we will always be a bunch of Skritt to them.

Digital Dragon.2697:

As elsbeth said, video games are out to make money. Everyone working for that company needs to get paid to keep a gaming running.

If they were so greedy, they would charge a monthly fee. Instead you by the game and play for FREE. The gem store is entirely up to YOU to use. If you think they’re greedy, stop buying stuff. I, personally, buy stuff because I love the game and want to support it. I want the developers to continue adding and fixing this game and I understand they can’t do that for free.

If you’re seeing all that from the gem store, all I can say is wow.

Guild Wars 1 has been alive for 7 years. How? Selling boxes, expansions, bank and characters slots, skin & name change tickets and costumes during parties. I was happy to buy something sometimes.

So how does Guild Wars 2 needs all this stuff to run? I’d prefer ONE THOUSAND TIMES a monthly fee, if this could avoid all this cash shop corruption. They are taking advantage of every event to sell 100$ of items every month, and I’m not even talking about gold.

So yea, if I could have a game without the Cash Shop, without every nerfed farm because gold = dollars, without all these players like you trying to buy my gold… I’d pay a monthly fee with so much joy. And with a monthly fee, less players, less success, less corruption. Less millions for the guys running NCsoft, Nexon, and all the rest.

MrDmajor.7084:

When a “content monetizing consultant” can simply broad swipe thousands of people knowing there will be no recourse there is no consumer respect.

Ok, I am seriously trying to figure out where some of the people on these forums are coming from. Why would anybody hire a monetizing consultant that makes people leave the game? Wouldn’t the point to a monetizing consultant be to make more money? So why would that person “broad swipe” thousands of the players?

Keiran.1896:

Digital Dragon.2697:

As elsbeth said, video games are out to make money. Everyone working for that company needs to get paid to keep a gaming running.

If they were so greedy, they would charge a monthly fee. Instead you by the game and play for FREE. The gem store is entirely up to YOU to use. If you think they’re greedy, stop buying stuff. I, personally, buy stuff because I love the game and want to support it. I want the developers to continue adding and fixing this game and I understand they can’t do that for free.

If you’re seeing all that from the gem store, all I can say is wow.

Guild Wars 1 has been alive for 7 years. How? Selling boxes, expansions, bank and characters slots, skin & name change tickets and costumes during parties. I was happy to buy something sometimes.

So how does Guild Wars 2 needs all this stuff to run? I’d prefer ONE THOUSAND TIMES a monthly fee, if this could avoid all this cash shop corruption. They are taking advantage of every event to sell 100$ of items every month, and I’m not even talking about gold.

So yea, if I could have a game without the Cash Shop, without every nerfed farm because gold = dollars, without all these players like you trying to buy my gold… I’d pay a monthly fee with so much joy. And with a monthly fee, less players, less success, less corruption. Less millions for the guys running NCsoft, Nexon, and all the rest.

Oh no . . . no no, if there is a monthly fee instead of cash shop I will depart with a foul taste in my mouth.

GW2 sells the same stuff as GW1….

You know; to simplify the business person in this characture you’ve created reflects an irrational hatred of the people who help make every single game you play possible. You ought to be disgusted with the whole industry. If you were truly moral, you would quit gaming and take up scrapbooking.

Ualtar.5047:

I am confused…

What about when you go out to a restaurant? Are you also thinking about the guy that owns the restaurant? What about the company that makes your car, or your clothes, or your toothpaste? Everything is made by somebody, and somebody gets rich off of it. Even in purely socialistic countries there is a wealthy elite that has the power and controls everything.

- OP probably grew up under socialist influence, thinking the only reason for companies to get money is their owners’ greed.

As long as the game doesn’t become pay to win, I don’t really care what they put into the cash shop.

They have to make money somehow, otherwise there will be no game. Selling extra character slots, extra bank slots, cosmetic items, etc. I bought cash shop items in GW1, and I have done so in GW2 as well.

It costs money to continually provide added content, features, support, run servers, etc. There is no monthly fee for this game compared to others so they have to make money somehow. This is nothing new to any MMO player.

Ualtar.5047:

MrDmajor.7084:

When a “content monetizing consultant” can simply broad swipe thousands of people knowing there will be no recourse there is no consumer respect.

Ok, I am seriously trying to figure out where some of the people on these forums are coming from. Why would anybody hire a monetizing consultant that makes people leave the game? Wouldn’t the point to a monetizing consultant be to make more money? So why would that person “broad swipe” thousands of the players?

Their job is to find ways to maximize revenue from in game content. A good amount of these people use spread sheets and algorithms and are completely inept when it comes player psychology, risk vs reward, and positive/negative reinforcement.

Why they get hired is because they are good at what they do and because the general public is dumber than it has ever been. They’re in the business of big fast money, not “community” and player base.

Ayrilana.1396:

It costs money to continually provide added content, features, support, run servers, etc. There is no monthly fee for this game compared to others so they have to make money somehow. This is nothing new to any MMO player.

I’d like to see it monetized a different way, such as shirts, mugs, plushies, framed art prints from concept art . . . but then, I’m a layperson who doesn’t understand the costs involved with those :P

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Maldavos.4871:

You know; to simplify the business person in this characture you’ve created reflects an irrational hatred of the people who help make every single game you play possible. You ought to be disgusted with the whole industry. If you were truly moral, you would quit gaming and take up scrapbooking.

. . . you don’t know the evils of scrapbooking, do you? :P

I know, the owners of Michaels are crazy capitalists that want your money.

Whoops, I’m straying off topic too much here. I have to reign in the sarcasm and levity.

In seriousness? When I open Black Lion I just kind of . . . block the purchase of Gems from my mind unless I’m there to expand my Bank Slots (for Cooking, actually . . . it’s amazing how much stuff you need). I don’t use it, except when I have need of it.

This was the same thing with GW1, I only really purchased things I felt I needed. The Vault Expansions, Bonus Mission Pack . . . I think I also purchased Game of the Year upgrade so I could have an Igneous Summoning Stone to make it easier for my perma-Pre character to get through stuff there.

As I said above . . . I’m not exactly LIKING Black Lion’s Gem Store, and if it was just a question of monetizing I’d much rather see other options. But if that’s the path that they chose to monetize then it not being there is a problem for their revenue stream and thus for us.

The passionate guys and developers working/building/maintaining the game have to make a living too. They have to pay off investors, advertisment, etc. They have utility to pay for to keep things running. It takes a lot of hamster food. It is certainly not one guy getting the money.

It is also the same with any sort of hobby or entertainment you do. There is always going to be some kind of cost involved, and the cash/gem shop is entirely optional at this point in time, just as you don’t have to buy overpriced popcorn/drinks when going to see a movie.

They can make a living easily without the kinds of manipulations that all MMOs today seem to have in place. They could make games with integrity that people are happy to spend money on because of the overall high quality. They don’t need to milk every penny they can out of their fans.

Honestly there is a huge difference between milking things for money and making things out of passion while still profiting. MMOs pre 2006-2007 were obviously made by people passionate about gaming who designed what they felt was interesting. This is called integrity in terms of a gaming company.

A game company that milks micro transactions and turns the genre into a system to generate cash and not a system that people enjoy and are happy to pay money for is something very different.

A good example is Diablo 2 compared to Diablo 3. Diablo 2 is possibly the most acclaimed online games of all time, it needed no cash shop, no 10% cuts off an auction house based on real money, it functioned it existed and people enjoyed it free of these things yet the 2010 era version brought these things at the customers expense for no gain. If it survived before how come that kind of integrity cannot exist anymore?

Cyricus.2981:

The passionate guys and developers working/building/maintaining the game have to make a living too. They have to pay off investors, advertisment, etc. They have utility to pay for to keep things running. It takes a lot of hamster food. It is certainly not one guy getting the money.

It is also the same with any sort of hobby or entertainment you do. There is always going to be some kind of cost involved, and the cash/gem shop is entirely optional at this point in time, just as you don’t have to buy overpriced popcorn/drinks when going to see a movie.

Well, problem there, at a theatre the concessions aren’t getting profit to the writers of the movies, they’re in place to fund the theatre. Those writers don’t see any of that, and it’s . . . I know it was a big issue, recently . . . an issue what they get once that movie goes to DVD/digital release.

Which basically would equate here that the Gems probably is funding the company, not the devs directly.

Stego.3148:

They can make a living easily without the kinds of manipulations that all MMOs today seem to have in place. They could make games with integrity that people are happy to spend money on because of the overall high quality. They don’t need to milk every penny they can out of their fans.

Honestly there is a huge difference between milking things for money and making things out of passion while still profiting. MMOs pre 2006-2007 were obviously made by people passionate about gaming who designed what they felt was interesting. This is called integrity in terms of a gaming company.

A game company that milks micro transactions and turns the genre into a system to generate cash and not a system that people enjoy and are happy to pay money for is something very different.

A good example is Diablo 2 compared to Diablo 3. Diablo 2 is possibly the most acclaimed online games of all time, it needed no cash shop, no 10% cuts off an auction house based on real money, it functioned it existed and people enjoyed it free of these things yet the 2010 era version brought these things at the customers expense for no gain. If it survived before how come that kind of integrity cannot exist anymore?

A better example is just confined to something in the same genre: EverQuest. No cash shop, but they definitely were all about keeping you playing as long as they could manage it. Which meant more subscription income . . .

. . . which would go into the expenses of running the servers, paying the paid CS reps (“GMs”), and so forth as it does towards making the guys at the top richer. Overhead is a killer when you’re an MMO.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Cyricus.2981:

The passionate guys and developers working/building/maintaining the game have to make a living too. They have to pay off investors, advertisment, etc. They have utility to pay for to keep things running. It takes a lot of hamster food. It is certainly not one guy getting the money.

It is also the same with any sort of hobby or entertainment you do. There is always going to be some kind of cost involved, and the cash/gem shop is entirely optional at this point in time, just as you don’t have to buy overpriced popcorn/drinks when going to see a movie.

Well, problem there, at a theatre the concessions aren’t getting profit to the writers of the movies, they’re in place to fund the theatre. Those writers don’t see any of that, and it’s . . . I know it was a big issue, recently . . . an issue what they get once that movie goes to DVD/digital release.

Which basically would equate here that the Gems probably is funding the company, not the devs directly.

Actually, they do see the profits in a way, as the theater is hosting the movie. Without the theater, the movie would not be played at all. However, I wasn’t really trying to get much into it, was just using it as an example as how it’s entirely optional.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Oh no . . . no no, if there is a monthly fee instead of cash shop I will depart with a foul taste in my mouth.

No game really thrives on just subs these days. There’s f2p and games with subs and f2p options, but pure subs are of the past.

The irony is that f2p tends to milk more cash out of players than subs ever did. You talk about a foul taste in your mouth because you fear having to pay 150 bucks a year on a game that you spend many hours in, but are not worried about f2p where people spend hundreds or even thousands in that same year.

Sure you have the choice but a game company will do all they can to get you to make that first fun purchase with real money and then it becomes easier and you end up spending more than on a sub.

It happens a lot. And yes Anet allows you to buy gems with gold but that’s why it’s good for them that things in game get more expensive as they recently did. Because that way your in game gold isn’t worth many gems and so you’d be better off buying em with real cash.

It’s not Anet, it’s f2p in general. People who think f2p is free are kidding themselves. It’s only free if they put up with certain limitations and/or have complete self control over their spending. That is not most people.

Still, I understand that games need to make money. I prefer a sub for that but there you are. So don’t get me wrong. I don’t think companies are evil for wanting to make money. I just think they figured out that they can trick people into spending much more money with f2p models.

And even that is fine with me. I really just laugh at people who think that subs are evil.

I do think there are some ethics involved here though. Anet actually set themselves up with their manifesto. They drew a line in the sand and said “this is what we stand for”. And when you buckle after that…well, it’s a sad thing indeed. If they’d never taken that stance, there wouldn’t have been such an uproar. They created expectations and created a fanbase with it. Then more people came in with different wishes and they spit out half the original fanbase that doesn’t agree with this new approach.

That to me is much more evil than cash shops, subs or people wanting to make money in general. It’s not the what but the how.

Cyricus.2981:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Cyricus.2981:

The passionate guys and developers working/building/maintaining the game have to make a living too. They have to pay off investors, advertisment, etc. They have utility to pay for to keep things running. It takes a lot of hamster food. It is certainly not one guy getting the money.

It is also the same with any sort of hobby or entertainment you do. There is always going to be some kind of cost involved, and the cash/gem shop is entirely optional at this point in time, just as you don’t have to buy overpriced popcorn/drinks when going to see a movie.

Well, problem there, at a theatre the concessions aren’t getting profit to the writers of the movies, they’re in place to fund the theatre. Those writers don’t see any of that, and it’s . . . I know it was a big issue, recently . . . an issue what they get once that movie goes to DVD/digital release.

Which basically would equate here that the Gems probably is funding the company, not the devs directly.

Actually, they do see the profits in a way, as the theater is hosting the movie. Without the theater, the movie would not be played at all. However, I wasn’t really trying to get much into it, was just using it as an example as how it’s entirely optional.

I understand, just . . . if you can’t tell by now (looking at my post history) I hate analogies which have a blatant gap to them. The intellectual side of my brain prefers to either search out a better fit or just avoid using them.

Eh, my point still stands kind of. The Gem Store isn’t being directly beneficial to the developers, just to the company which pays the developers. The distinction is nontrivial.

Gehenna.3625:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Oh no . . . no no, if there is a monthly fee instead of cash shop I will depart with a foul taste in my mouth.

No game really thrives on just subs these days. There’s f2p and games with subs and f2p options, but pure subs are of the past.

The irony is that f2p tends to milk more cash out of players than subs ever did. You talk about a foul taste in your mouth because you fear having to pay 150 bucks a year on a game that you spend many hours in, but are not worried about f2p where people spend hundreds or even thousands in that same year.

Sure you have the choice but a game company will do all they can to get you to make that first fun purchase with real money and then it becomes easier and you end up spending more than on a sub.

It happens a lot. And yes Anet allows you to buy gems with gold but that’s why it’s good for them that things in game get more expensive as they recently did. Because that way your in game gold isn’t worth many gems and so you’d be better off buying em with real cash.

It’s not Anet, it’s f2p in general. People who think f2p is free are kidding themselves. It’s only free if they put up with certain limitations and/or have complete self control over their spending. That is not most people.

Still, I understand that games need to make money. I prefer a sub for that but there you are. So don’t get me wrong. I don’t think companies are evil for wanting to make money. I just think they figured out that they can trick people into spending much more money with f2p models.

And even that is fine with me. I really just laugh at people who think that subs are evil.

I do think there are some ethics involved here though. Anet actually set themselves up with their manifesto. They drew a line in the sand and said “this is what we stand for”. And when you buckle after that…well, it’s a sad thing indeed. If they’d never taken that stance, there wouldn’t have been such an uproar. They created expectations and created a fanbase with it. Then more people came in with different wishes and they spit out half the original fanbase that doesn’t agree with this new approach.

That to me is much more evil than cash shops, subs or people wanting to make money in general. It’s not the what but the how.

It’s not that I fear paying $150 a year for the game I enjoy. I am done with that, thank you, Everquest cured me of that ill way back before I left college.

It’s that I really, truly WOULD stop playing the game if it goes subscription. I can’t afford it.

If companies don’t make enough money, then there will be fewer character balloons at the holiday parades!
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/1863p7jtacodajpg/original.jpg
hehhehhehheh
Or consider the costs of exhibiting, travel, etc associated with E3 and other marketing tactics that facilitate distribution of money and maintain the existence of jobs associated with travel, conference centers, and restaurants. 0o
circle of life/circle of economy. http://video.pbs.org/video/1170821435/

Keiran.1896:

Ualtar.5047:

I am confused…

What about when you go out to a restaurant? Are you also thinking about the guy that owns the restaurant? What about the company that makes your car, or your clothes, or your toothpaste? Everything is made by somebody, and somebody gets rich off of it. Even in purely socialistic countries there is a wealthy elite that has the power and controls everything.

Yes, but let’s say a restaurant has a lot of success, it doesn’t increase prices. Water is free, if there’s more people going into the restaurant, water will remain free.

However, isn’t a such success the worst thing you can hope for a game like GW2? the more there are players, the more there are dollars-eyed flies flying around the developpers, the more sales expectations are rising and the more cash shop is growing terrible.

Please, players, leave this game >.<

ACtually most high end restaurants that become successful do increase prices, the water then gets charged for. You either sell quality and make it exclusive and expensive or you sell quantity and make it cheap and cheerful and create a chain.

The simple issue is companies have 2 choices free to play or monthly fees and/or charge for expansions, certainly if they want to keep being able to pay for the longevity of the game. The bonus with free to play is that players can pop back for a day a month ect whenever they want without a subscription and they then contribute to the experience/economy of others.
The idea behind diablo 3 was that the company made money from the farming ect that went on by goldselling companies or at least was an attempt to try to cut them out but they made a game based mainly on gear which meant it ruined the gold economy having an RMAH. They then had to factor the RMAH into their RNG system which hamstered off all the other players who did not want to pay real money.

The gem store does not bother me as they have allowed people to buy gems with in game gold, if they were really ruthless and wanted to make money then they would not do that. You really do not need to pay into this game after buying it certainly not right now.

At the end of the day it is a company, they make money it is what they do. There is nothing essential on the gem store, you need to treat it like every other store in the real world if you can not afford to buy the product do not.