Guild Wars 2

I’m glad the wolves don’t have retaliation anymore, it was too powerful when they spawn in large numbers.

As for the argument that you can bring boon removal, I don’t think being forced to bring certain professions just to complete content with less trouble is something Anet would agree upon.

Look at the way episodes 1-4 were structured: mordrem wolves weren’t encountered in large groups, but in small packs or in one case, one very large and annoying wolf with permanent retaliation and stability.

Compare that with episode 5 and the vast waves that spawn plenty of wolves.

If you look at their original ability to grant retaliation to itself and allies, you’ll notice that multiple wolves can howl at different times to enable what was basically permanent retaliation.

As soon as retaliation was removed, in a potentially short period of time, it would be back up.

Combine that with the large amounts of enemies that spawn and you’d have multiple enemies with potentially permanent retaliation.

Unless every class had the ability to remove boons in a fairly quick manner that could counteract the wolves, I don’t think it’s coming back.

Yes, but in the new content, you’re not engaging them alone either. You have other players with you. If you don’t, you are going to fail anyway, Retaliation or no.

The actual strength of the Retaliation could be adjusted by changing the Mordrem’s Power stat and Power coefficients, if necessary (quite important on the elites and champs, really). The Retaliation itself was a good mechanic the required different tactics to handle effectively, both on the singular level and the group level.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I don’t mind the removal of retail on the wolves. My biggest issues with it previously were:

1) I main an ele, not a whole lot of boon stripping options (like 0)
2) Wolves rarely travel alone, and could stack the retail time
3) Low cool down on retail made stripping seem pointless as boon was quickly reapplied while strips have a much longer cool down

Not to mention the back-crits, which they seem to be able to repeatedly hit while you are facing them, in addition to the retail, just made for lots of frustration.

Good points.

However the lack of ways to deal with boon as an ele is a feature : it is supposed to be their kryptonite (supposedly the same way conditions are supposed to be hard to deal with for warriors and guards are weak to corruptors).

VodCom.6924:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I don’t mind the removal of retail on the wolves. My biggest issues with it previously were:

1) I main an ele, not a whole lot of boon stripping options (like 0)
2) Wolves rarely travel alone, and could stack the retail time
3) Low cool down on retail made stripping seem pointless as boon was quickly reapplied while strips have a much longer cool down

Not to mention the back-crits, which they seem to be able to repeatedly hit while you are facing them, in addition to the retail, just made for lots of frustration.

Good points.

However the lack of ways to deal with boon as an ele is a feature : it is supposed to be their kryptonite (supposedly the same way conditions are supposed to be hard to deal with for warriors and guards are weak to corruptors).

I know, I’d considered point out that eles were designed that way (per dev statements), but figured I didn’t really need to. Course, I didn’t feel like arguing with people telling me I had no clue what I was talking about either, and it’s not like they would watch the twitch vid even if I did link it.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

VodCom.6924:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I don’t mind the removal of retail on the wolves. My biggest issues with it previously were:

1) I main an ele, not a whole lot of boon stripping options (like 0)
2) Wolves rarely travel alone, and could stack the retail time
3) Low cool down on retail made stripping seem pointless as boon was quickly reapplied while strips have a much longer cool down

Not to mention the back-crits, which they seem to be able to repeatedly hit while you are facing them, in addition to the retail, just made for lots of frustration.

Good points.

However the lack of ways to deal with boon as an ele is a feature : it is supposed to be their kryptonite (supposedly the same way conditions are supposed to be hard to deal with for warriors and guards are weak to corruptors).

I know, I’d considered point out that eles were designed that way (per dev statements), but figured I didn’t really need to. Course, I didn’t feel like arguing with people telling me I had no clue what I was talking about either, and it’s not like they would watch the twitch vid even if I did link it.

Truth in your words there is.

Lishtenbird.2814:

5 classes out of 8 have boon removal. The other 3 (warrior, ranger, elementalist) can suck damage in, tank it with pet or heal out. All 8 classes have access to boon removing sigils.

Your other argument makes just as much sense as saying “since 4 classes out of 8 have no +25% speed signets, creating a map with a single waypoint is just discouraging them from playing at all.”

Nonsensical to the point of not being worth addressing directly, see my response to the somewhat more consciously written out post below.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Three. Guardians have it via trait (whenever they burn), Thieves have spammable Flanking-Larcenous Strike and Bountiful Theft, Engineers have Acidic Elixers and Throw Mine, Necros and Mesmers both have quite a few.

Searing flames isn’t a boon removal skill, it is a trait, which which must be combined with one or more skills. I specifically stated ‘a’ skill, otherwise the chucklehead above you who suggested everyone in the entire game slot sigils of nullification over whatever else they may have (which I’d totally do over my 20G a pop sigils of torment) would actually have a single legitimate argument.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

That leaves Warriors, Rangers, and Elementalists that lack boon removal.

However, even without boon removal, you aren’t “discouraged from playing them at all.” You were discouraged from mindlessly blowing skills. Lots of ways to deal with it, including:

• use fewer, but harder hitting attacks (Eviscerate, Final Thrust, Fire Grab, Maul)
• Take your time to kill them, mixing in some healing (all three have fantastic health regen options)
• Interrupt the howl (all three have good interrupt ability)
• Get a buddy

But since all of these mean you can’t just spam your normal rotations, people whine and moan about how unfair it is.

And all of that proves my point.

There is a world of difference between requiring people to make strategic adjustments to their builds in PvE content and requiring them to make so many ‘adaptations’ that they are no longer playing their own build at all. The limitations of boon removal for most of the games classes when compared to a constantly applied boon which can kill you without any guarantee you have a way addressing without massive changes to your build, or even at all, falls well over the line of reasonable expectation for players to play the way they want and still exercise strategy.

And ending your argument with elitist hyperbolic assumptions and insults does not help you in any way, you just look further unable to support your stance.

I don’t recall retaliation ever being a problem with them. The only scary part about them was getting jumped from behind and nearly getting 1 shot (Elementalist), which is still true. I recently exited a breach for example and had 3 of them instantly down me.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Draknar.5748:

Most people play solo.

Your data?

“Most people who play solo” play single-player games. When you come to a massively multiplayer online role-playing game, you play with other players, want it or not.

The majority of players play solo. People want to login and play, not login and wait for groups. If the majority wanted to be forced into groups, leveling wouldn’t cater to the solo player and WoW wouldn’t have happened. If you want a source though, WildStar said that 60% of players play solo.

Solo players do play with other players, that much is obvious, but they do not play in a group with other players during regular play.

Azure.8670:

maybe they wanted us to use conditions????….. nahhhh

Well, my celestial engineer and condi thief didn’t have overwhelming problems with the retaliation, although both had to be careful about the kits/weapons they used against mordrem wolves. So maybe?

But with the new, retaliation-less wolves, there is certainly no point in switching ouf of the engineer’s grenade kit or being careful about quick dagger strikes from the thief, so fighting mordrem has gotten a bit boring.

I think they also may have nerfed the ranged vine tentacle attack of the Leeching Thrashers – it certainly seems easier now to dodge out of those without taking damage – and I find that particular change highly welcome.

I was surprised to see that they just removed it outright, replacing it with swiftness. It was ridiculously op before, as a channeled skill with multiple pulses (interrupts were basically useless) on a low cooldown. Making it actually interruptable would have been the change I expected (gives retal only at the end of the howl), not that I’m complaining. They are still bad enough with the leap skill that means they attack from behind no matter what direction you are facing. (Takes off ~70% of my health.)

Conncept.7638:

Lishtenbird.2814:

5 classes out of 8 have boon removal. The other 3 (warrior, ranger, elementalist) can suck damage in, tank it with pet or heal out. All 8 classes have access to boon removing sigils.

Your other argument makes just as much sense as saying “since 4 classes out of 8 have no +25% speed signets, creating a map with a single waypoint is just discouraging them from playing at all.”

Nonsensical to the point of not being worth addressing directly, see my response to the somewhat more consciously written out post below.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Three. Guardians have it via trait (whenever they burn), Thieves have spammable Flanking-Larcenous Strike and Bountiful Theft, Engineers have Acidic Elixers and Throw Mine, Necros and Mesmers both have quite a few.

Searing flames isn’t a boon removal skill, it is a trait, which which must be combined with one or more skills. I specifically stated ‘a’ skill,

No, you stated:

Considering that four of the game’s classes have absolutely no boon removal and one has only one such skill

And Guardians do, in fact, have boon removal as part of the class. Quit trying to hide what you said by contradicting yourself.

Conncept.7638:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

However, even without boon removal, you aren’t “discouraged from playing them at all.” You were discouraged from mindlessly blowing skills. Lots of ways to deal with it, including:

• use fewer, but harder hitting attacks (Eviscerate, Final Thrust, Fire Grab, Maul)
• Take your time to kill them, mixing in some healing (all three have fantastic health regen options)
• Interrupt the howl (all three have good interrupt ability)
• Get a buddy

But since all of these mean you can’t just spam your normal rotations, people whine and moan about how unfair it is.

And all of that proves my point.

There is a world of difference between requiring people to make strategic adjustments to their builds in PvE content and requiring them to make so many ‘adaptations’ that they are no longer playing their own build at all. The limitations of boon removal for most of the games classes when compared to a constantly applied boon which can kill you without any guarantee you have a way addressing without massive changes to your build, or even at all, falls well over the line of reasonable expectation for players to play the way they want and still exercise strategy.

And ending your argument with elitist hyperbolic assumptions and insults does not help you in any way, you just look further unable to support your stance.

You just helped prove my point. None of the things I mentioned require completely changing your build at all, just your strategy. Which you yourself just basically said was perfectly fine.

So, Retaliation was bad, because it requires you to change your strategy, which is a good thing? What?

Lishtenbird.2814:

Draknar.5748:

Most people play solo.

Your data?

“Most people who play solo” play single-player games. When you come to a massively multiplayer online role-playing game, you play with other players, want it or not.

Draknar.5748:

I don’t really see the point in certain monsters being weak to specific classes (boon strippers) and strong to others. Most people play solo. It isn’t like a Warrior can come up to a wolf and say “oh dang, this mob uses lots of retaliation, let me go and swap to my boon stripping build real quick”.

Welcome to the mesmer world, where your 60% of damage in form of a phantasm just vapoured after the target trash mob died, and the other 10 mobs are glad to kill you while you’re hitting them with a wet noodle. So what did you say about a warrior vs. retal again?

My data? When I roam around Tyria, I rarely see groups of people unless there is a boss or an event. When either ends, everyone splits off in their own direction. Now I can’t possibly claim any concrete numbers, who can, but most people I know, if they are exploring a zone, or in this case exploring Dry Top/Silverwastes, are doing so on their own time. I used this information to make my sweeping generalization; which I honestly feel is more accurate than not. Group play exists and it happens, but exploration, for the majority of people in my opinion, is done solo.

I feel for Mesmers. I really do. I have an 80 mesmer and the phantasm mechanic can be god-awful. That being the case, however, I still don’t think we should perpetuate a bad feature. They should rework the phantasm system if anything.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

So, Retaliation was bad, because it requires you to change your strategy, which is a good thing? What?

Anything that forces us to change our strategies is good. However in this particular case a little problem rose up :

• Wolves applied retaliation to themselves. => Forces you to switch target
• Wolves also applied retaliation to OTHER mordrems => You can’t hit any monster in fact, unless you have boon removal (some classes don’t)
• Retaliation stacks and is easily applied by a mob of mordrem wolves. => You can’t win unless null field or spinal shivers.

All in all : if you are not a corruptor, you’re screwed. This is why Anet nerfed the wolves. Period.

Suggestion : Change the ability to only apply retaliation to the wolve itself and not its allies. Increase the cooldown of the shout to prevent perma-retaliation.

VodCom.6924:

All in all : if you are not a corruptor, you’re screwed. This is why Anet nerfed the wolves. Period.

What happened to CC? Did it suddenly disapear?

Not every class has equal access to boon removal. And even if you did somehow manage to remove the Retaliation without killing yourself in the process, the wolf will just howl again and the Retaliation would be back on.

And as already mentioned, some of them had permanent retaliation, and boon stripping didn’t help. I tried it several times as a Thief. The only option I had was spiking them down quicker, minimizing number of hits, but even that was a lot more challenging than it needed to be.

i dont even remember wolves from the LS. If that says anything

VodCom.6924:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

So, Retaliation was bad, because it requires you to change your strategy, which is a good thing? What?

Anything that forces us to change our strategies is good. However in this particular case a little problem rose up :

• Wolves applied retaliation to themselves. => Forces you to switch target
• Wolves also applied retaliation to OTHER mordrems => You can’t hit any monster in fact, unless you have boon removal (some classes don’t)
• Retaliation stacks and is easily applied by a mob of mordrem wolves. => You can’t win unless null field or spinal shivers.

All in all : if you are not a corruptor, you’re screwed. This is why Anet nerfed the wolves. Period.

Suggestion : Change the ability to only apply retaliation to the wolve itself and not its allies. Increase the cooldown of the shout to prevent perma-retaliation.

Or, you could adopt one of the tactics I mentioned in my above post, none of which require boon removal, but all are available to every profession. To recap:

However, even without boon removal, you aren’t “discouraged from playing them at all.” You were discouraged from mindlessly blowing skills. Lots of ways to deal with it, including:

• use fewer, but harder hitting attacks (Eviscerate, Final Thrust, Fire Grab, Maul)
• Take your time to kill them, mixing in some healing (all three have fantastic health regen options)
• Interrupt the howl (all three have good interrupt ability)
• Get a buddy

But since all of these mean you can’t just spam your normal rotations, people whine and moan about how unfair it is.

I carry around a shield on my engi with a sigil of nullification. I don’t see what’s the big deal in carrying an extra weapon for situations that need it. I use bombs and FT, I deal a lot of hits, retaliation is death to me – and I LOVE IT when enemies use it, because it means I’ll have to deal with it.

They got nerfed? Good. Probably one of the only nerfs that I actually agree with.

Gudy.3607:

I think they also may have nerfed the ranged vine tentacle attack of the Leeching Thrashers – it certainly seems easier now to dodge out of those without taking damage – and I find that particular change highly welcome.

That attack is more about sitting far away looking all innocent while groping random “heroes” to deaths with tentacles.

Tuomir.1830:

I carry around a shield on my engi with a sigil of nullification. I don’t see what’s the big deal in carrying an extra weapon for situations that need it. I use bombs and FT, I deal a lot of hits, retaliation is death to me – and I LOVE IT when enemies use it, because it means I’ll have to deal with it.

So you hit the wolves until it procs, hopefully before it kills you.

I can tolerate them a helluva lot more as they are now. Endless retaliation + massive damage as they originally were is horsepuckey. Anet actually learned something here.

I don’t know. A wolf by itself isn’t a huge problem. An elite wolf surrounded by other wolves, where some are always going to be flanking you? Terrible design decision. I don’t see how they could have not been nerfed.

calyx.9086:

Arrow.4619:

No, I don’t think so. Keep it gone. The major issue I had with it was many classes have what can be best described as “inadequate” or “minimal” boon stripping ability (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon). Only the Necromancer and Mesmer stand out for boon stripping.

Let me introduce you to thief sword/dagger.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Larcenous_Strike

Look ma, spammable boon stripping on a class that actually deals solid dps.

:) My main is a thief. Spent many hours earning the majority of the 16,000+ AP I have playing the class. I run D/D and P/P since I pretty much just PvE. You actually are reinforcing a point other posters have made. Rather than swap my ascended dagger for a crafted exotic sword or ascended sword (with a boon stripping sigil) so I could have spamable boon hate I went with what I knew best and liked the most. Just changed my tactics slightly, was a little more cautious and . . . powered through and killed them. Including the one that spawned in the Ley Line Hub you had to kill for the achievement during the LS episode (which I soloed). They were challenging but not particularly fun to fight and I noticed a lot of players simply avoided some Dry Top events where they were likely to show up (vine bridge comes to mind). If SW had Mordrem Wolves with retal as before . . . not sure very many players would show or stay.

Khisanth.2948:

Tuomir.1830:

I carry around a shield on my engi with a sigil of nullification. I don’t see what’s the big deal in carrying an extra weapon for situations that need it. I use bombs and FT, I deal a lot of hits, retaliation is death to me – and I LOVE IT when enemies use it, because it means I’ll have to deal with it.

So you hit the wolves until it procs, hopefully before it kills you.

No, I interrupt them when they buff themselves, and if I can’t do that, I cautiously deliver hits until the sigil procs, keeping a close eye on my health. Change of pace, not blind spamming.

Tuomir.1830:

Khisanth.2948:

Tuomir.1830:

I carry around a shield on my engi with a sigil of nullification. I don’t see what’s the big deal in carrying an extra weapon for situations that need it. I use bombs and FT, I deal a lot of hits, retaliation is death to me – and I LOVE IT when enemies use it, because it means I’ll have to deal with it.

So you hit the wolves until it procs, hopefully before it kills you.

No, I interrupt them when they buff themselves, and if I can’t do that, I cautiously deliver hits until the sigil procs, keeping a close eye on my health. Change of pace, not blind spamming.

You mean the sort of tactic changing I’ve been saying Retaliation encourages this whole time and why it’s a good mob mechanic?

This is exactly what I’ve been saying. Retaliation on the mobs encouraged different builds, but didn’t require them. It required different tactics, which any build can do. Thank you so much for saying this.

In all honesty i suspect that ANet only test their mobs in 1v1 scenarios.

Because once you face multiple of them, they quickly go off the rails. In particular when dealing with scaled open world events.

What’s a mechanic in the game that controls the rate of use on an aspect of defense, but isn’t used by mobs? Endurance.

Give enemies a hidden endurance gauge (just one segment), and bind their defensive abilities to it. Retaliation, healing, mobility, invulnerability – whatever they use. Now mobs can make use of vigor and feel the full penalty from weakness, and we have a universal pivot point to balance all mobs’ defensive skills against.

Triggering the wolves’ retaliation would cost them their bar of endurance, and its duration could be set accordingly. Make sure they don’t get vigor from anything, keep weakness on them, use boon stripping when the retal does come up, et voila, you can strategically minimize their retaliation uptime using under-employed mechanisms that were already in the game.