My opinion about mechanics in GW2 PVE

My opinion about mechanics in GW2 PVE

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Posted by: SkylightMoon.1980

SkylightMoon.1980

One thing I feel that gw2 needs to improve on before it can move on is mechanics in PVE. For a while I thought the game just had a very little mechanics to PVE, and thats why it was so easy and mindless, but now im starting to think its something else.

I was doing a dungeon recently, Hotw, and along the way I was keeping an eye on all the trash within the dungeon, along with the few bosses. One thing I noticed is that even though the creatures have mechanics to them, like CC, condi’s, cleave, none of these really matter at all, they are completely negligible. One reason for this is because all these abilities simply don’t scale enough in their impact on the players at all. If one mob has an ability that does CC, the CC frequency is so small, that players really don’t have to worry about keeping stability up. If one mob has condi abilities, it only applies a few stacks and they tick like they would for a player who has no condi damage. So in that case, condi’s are completely negligible again, and the player can just facebash his keyboard to kill the enemy.

The last example id like to give is Ginva the Butcher. On the wiki, they go into quite a bit of detail on how to kill this. He is a boss that has one nasty aoe attack that you do have to dodge, but also a bunch of totems that boon him up. After going into this dungeon and doing this fight, I pretty much realized that these totems don’t mean anything, you can completely ignore him and kill the boss fine, the only real reason youd kill them is so you can kill the boss a tad quicker. This type of example is very good at summarizing a lot of the problems in difficulty in PVE in this game. If the devs want to make totems meaningful, it needs to work like this.

So there are 3 totems, 1 for protection, 1 for regen, 1 for retaliation. If protection is up, his damage intake should be reduced by about 90%. If his retaliation is up, it should hit you back for about 1k. If his regen is up, his health regen should be about 5-10% per second. This way, the players are pretty much forced to kill these totems to kill the boss. However this isnt the case, like I said, you can completely ignore them. The game designers of gw2 really need to take a hard look at situations like this and realize the grand faults. Personally, I think almost every dungeon is gw2, and champion open world, needs to have their mechanics revamped so they are actually meaningful. This doesn’t necessarily have to mean they need to change the mechanics of some mobs that applies condis, or cc, only scale those abilities so they are something you must pay attention too.

I know some people may say that this would make things too hard, but in reality I think it would set the game at a level it should have been a long time ago. I mean if the devs really want the game to be as easy as it is now, just remove the mechanics from all of the creatures, because they don’t really do anything in the first place. The only point of putting these text bars under the creatures name tag would just be artificial, to make the player think there is something they have to watch out for. Anyway thats just one of my thoughts after observing PVE in this game for 18-19 months compared to what ive seen in many other games.

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Posted by: TheDaiBish.9735

TheDaiBish.9735

I agree, although I’d argue that it’s also partly down to the fact any decent mechanics aren’t enforced enough (The Lover’s in AC, for example, was nerfed to the ground [added boulders were you can KD-lock them], whereas before, it was quite a challenging fight where you needed to keep them apart).

Another issue with the open world fights isn’t the mechanics (if you do these fights with just 10 players, you need to pay attention) so much as the mechanics don’t scale depending on the number of players, thus the mechanics can be ignored by the larger number of players doing the event. The Shatterer’s healing crystals, for example. If you have 10 or 100 people, it still only spawns a set number of them crystals.

Now, if the mechanics did scale (say, 1 extra healing crystal per 3 players), players would have to pay attention to these mechanics.

Another recommendation I’d make is that more than one mechanic happens at a time.

Taking the Shatterer as an example again, say the Healing Crystals and Imprisonment Crystals mechanics happen in tandem. What does this achieve? The large mass of players will have to divide themselves up to do 2 jobs at once (take down the healing crystals, and free other players, since you’d also need their help to take the crystals down because of the scaling), thus bringing an element of organisation to the fight.

So, to TL:DR:

  • Enforce mechanics more.
  • Have open-world mechanics scale.
  • Have more than one mechanic happening at once.
Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.

My opinion about mechanics in GW2 PVE

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Posted by: Sourde Noire.5286

Sourde Noire.5286

So you played one of the easiest dungeons in one of its easiest paths and you feel it was too easy?

The problem with this is that the general skill level in GW2 is quite low (citation needed, my impression in bigger events and from seeing people playing) and many dungeons already fail or take forever in PuGs.
But the idea of GW2 is that everyone can try (and succeed) in anything, recent additions like Tequatl/Wurm aside. If you make the dungeons harder, it’ll be even worse for random groups and then you can only make those with dedicated guilds or friends and if you don’t have those, you’re out of luck.
Some open world champions are laughable, yes, but some are also ridiculous in their strength (sharks and broodmothers come to mind) with ludicrous fast and powerful spammable CC.

Mobs that have a single CC skill to use it infrequently are easy when they are alone, but when you fight them in groups it can quickly turn into stunlock. Not every class has Stability as best buddy like warriors and only so many stunbreakers. Pair that with inexperienced players/PuGs and half your party instantly dies.

While a dev said they want to raise the skill ceiling in GW2, which was seemingly the intention behind the Marionette fight, I don’t think they’ll drastically change the core mechanics (they recently buffed… copy-pasted the Troll miniboss in HotW for some reason, that’s all).

People already skip the trashmobs in dungeons when they can. Making them harder won’t change anything. And for the HARDCORE crowd there were a few additions. And you can try running the dungeon in questionable builds or with crappy gear. But then the reward won’t match the effort, as is the case already. And if you made it better, people would complain that some players can get better loot, PuGs would probably become worse (We didn’t make it because YOU sucked! Now I didn’t get my better loot!).

So yeah, I don’t see it happen at all.

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Posted by: Zepidel.5349

Zepidel.5349

GW2 PvE is a (failed?) experiment in no trinity gameplay.

All classes can survive any encounter without need of outside support, with base vitality, and base toughness…using only dodge and skills that actively mitigate damage. Meaning that all stats should be pumped into dps output.

Classes have roles, mesmers and guardians are “support” with reflections, condition removals, and skills only available to their class like time warp or virtues. Every class with the exception of necromancer and engineer also have support roles that need to be fulfilled. But just because they are “support” doesn’t mean they need stats in anything besides dps, all the things they use to support work just as good in zerker as they do in clerics, the difference is 2-4x more dps output (faster fights, less time to mess up, allows to ignore some mechanics compeltely… and lets face it faster is always better.)

Ranger must use spotter and frost spirit (those that don’t are a waste of space honestly, and there are A LOT of you out there)

warrior must use banners

ele must stack might via fire fields

etc…

To “fix” this the core game has to be completely redone from traits to stats to the encounters themselves. The crit dmg changes are not solving anything and is an extremely lazy response to terrible players crying about the “zerker” meta.

edit: there’s a reason why there is a question mark behind failed people. The reason I believe it to be failed is there is an optimal spec that never changes no matter the instance, or group comp. The only changes come from changing 2 or so utilities based on the fight if needed (do i need more condition removals? reflections? etc..). There is no healing mesmer, phantasmal tank, medic engineer, protection guardian, control ele, hexmaster necro, etc… there is just dps X , and certain things expected from them. Because using any of those other specs is just slowing your group down immensely.

(edited by Zepidel.5349)

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Posted by: TheDaiBish.9735

TheDaiBish.9735

GW2 PvE is a (failed?) experiment in no trinity gameplay.

Can you really say it’s failed if it hasn’t been fully utilised and tested?

Outside of a few things (Defiant beign one of the main ones, Conditions in the open world), it’s encounter design and the lack of enforced mechanics that’s the main issue.

Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.

My opinion about mechanics in GW2 PVE

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Posted by: Algreg.3629

Algreg.3629

GW2 PvE is a (failed?) experiment in no trinity gameplay.

All classes can survive any encounter without need of outside support, with base vitality, and base toughness…using only dodge and skills that actively mitigate damage. Meaning that all stats should be pumped into dps output.

Classes have roles, mesmers and guardians are “support” with reflections, condition removals, and skills only available to their class like time warp or virtues. Every class with the exception of necromancer and engineer also have support roles that need to be fulfilled. But just because they are “support” doesn’t mean they need stats in anything besides dps, all the things they use to support work just as good in zerker as they do in clerics, the difference is 2-4x more dps output (faster fights, less time to mess up, allows to ignore some mechanics compeltely… and lets face it faster is always better.)

Ranger must use spotter and frost spirit (those that don’t are a waste of space honestly, and there are A LOT of you out there)

warrior must use banners

ele must stack might via fire fields

etc…

To “fix” this the core game has to be completely redone from traits to stats to the encounters themselves. The crit dmg changes are not solving anything and is an extremely lazy response to terrible players crying about the “zerker” meta.

people seem to enjoy it and it thrives economically. Where exactly is the fail? Fail does not equal “I donĀ“t like it personally”.

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Posted by: Dusty Moon.4382

Dusty Moon.4382

GW2 PvE is a (failed?) experiment in no trinity gameplay.

All classes can survive any encounter without need of outside support, with base vitality, and base toughness…using only dodge and skills that actively mitigate damage. Meaning that all stats should be pumped into dps output.

Classes have roles, mesmers and guardians are “support” with reflections, condition removals, and skills only available to their class like time warp or virtues. Every class with the exception of necromancer and engineer also have support roles that need to be fulfilled. But just because they are “support” doesn’t mean they need stats in anything besides dps, all the things they use to support work just as good in zerker as they do in clerics, the difference is 2-4x more dps output (faster fights, less time to mess up, allows to ignore some mechanics compeltely… and lets face it faster is always better.)

Ranger must use spotter and frost spirit (those that don’t are a waste of space honestly, and there are A LOT of you out there)

warrior must use banners

ele must stack might via fire fields

etc…

To “fix” this the core game has to be completely redone from traits to stats to the encounters themselves. The crit dmg changes are not solving anything and is an extremely lazy response to terrible players crying about the “zerker” meta.

GW2 is not a failed experiment and the Trinity actually simplifies mechanics, not makes them more complex. This is due to the design of the Trinity – it is a ‘pew, pew’ mechanics and if you can’t taunt (the tank) the team wipes. THe Trinity also forces less build choices (Rift was a great example – they are many unique builds in the game but only one for each profession was usually used for RAIDS) and that was NOT by design but rather forced by the players.

They are redoing the traits, hence the patch tomorrow. They are redoing Crit damage because it scales improperly and you should not be able to have over 100% (IMO). That is why ‘zerker’ is the build of choice for the uniformed player. And many ‘zerker’ builds are glass cannons and that is why in WvW and sPvP they are not prevalent.

‘Zerker’ meta was picked by lazy players not the design team (although they said it does max damage at a cost to other things).

As far as conditions, it is OP in WvW/PvP but can be mitigated, if the build is more balanced. In PVE, if the conditions get more impact, they will also impact more on the players – it is a two-way street. If that happens, zerker will die because they really can’t handle all the conditions.

(edited by Dusty Moon.4382)

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Posted by: SkylightMoon.1980

SkylightMoon.1980

GW2 PvE is a (failed?) experiment in no trinity gameplay.

All classes can survive any encounter without need of outside support, with base vitality, and base toughness…using only dodge and skills that actively mitigate damage. Meaning that all stats should be pumped into dps output.

Classes have roles, mesmers and guardians are “support” with reflections, condition removals, and skills only available to their class like time warp or virtues. Every class with the exception of necromancer and engineer also have support roles that need to be fulfilled. But just because they are “support” doesn’t mean they need stats in anything besides dps, all the things they use to support work just as good in zerker as they do in clerics, the difference is 2-4x more dps output (faster fights, less time to mess up, allows to ignore some mechanics compeltely… and lets face it faster is always better.)

Ranger must use spotter and frost spirit (those that don’t are a waste of space honestly, and there are A LOT of you out there)

warrior must use banners

ele must stack might via fire fields

etc…

To “fix” this the core game has to be completely redone from traits to stats to the encounters themselves. The crit dmg changes are not solving anything and is an extremely lazy response to terrible players crying about the “zerker” meta.

I think the combo fields are probably the replacement for the trinity tbh. I just don’t think Anet has expanded on them enough. They are a great way to reward teamwork in this game by giving you a lottt of heals or a lot of might. I think waterfield blasting really replacing the need for healers well. This is coming from the perspective of someone whose been in multiple skill groups. But wvw groups are the only ones who really take advantage of these combo fields, theres not much incentive in PVE besides might stacking I guess because there are a lot of zerkheads.

I have done almost every dungeon in this game, not just this one. One thing I remember about this game is that doing the dungeons at your level makes it feel much harder. Like when you first hit 30 and do story mode, then go onto 35, it feels much harder than when you are just 80. The more recent content we’ve seen Anet release from the living story (marionette, jungle wurm, hologram) definitely have more mechanics, but now they just need to do this on a smaller scale. 5 man fights, 10-20 man events. I’ll be keeping a very close eye on this sort of thing in LS season 2 and the next dungeon they release.

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Try Arah. Those trash mobs can be extremely tough to ignore. Dead eyes, I’m looking at you!

I also don’t think it’s fair to judge the whole of dungeon encounters on the second easiest path in the game.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: SkylightMoon.1980

SkylightMoon.1980

Try Arah. Those trash mobs can be extremely tough to ignore. Dead eyes, I’m looking at you!

I also don’t think it’s fair to judge the whole of dungeon encounters on the second easiest path in the game.

Well unfortunately almost everyone skips these mobs because they are such a short aggro chain.

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Try Arah. Those trash mobs can be extremely tough to ignore. Dead eyes, I’m looking at you!

I also don’t think it’s fair to judge the whole of dungeon encounters on the second easiest path in the game.

Well unfortunately almost everyone skips these mobs because they are such a short aggro chain.

Well I mean. 1 hit kills from some of these trash mobs can make that point pretty moot. It’s all RNG.

I don’t understand the no skipping crowd, but I respect your right to play how you want. So I recommend just killing them all…. rather than attempting to stifle the options when running dungeons. Full clears of Arah need to be done and streamed…. please. I’m far too lazy to do it myself.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

My opinion about mechanics in GW2 PVE

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Posted by: Zepidel.5349

Zepidel.5349

GW2 PvE is a (failed?) experiment in no trinity gameplay.

All classes can survive any encounter without need of outside support, with base vitality, and base toughness…using only dodge and skills that actively mitigate damage. Meaning that all stats should be pumped into dps output.

Classes have roles, mesmers and guardians are “support” with reflections, condition removals, and skills only available to their class like time warp or virtues. Every class with the exception of necromancer and engineer also have support roles that need to be fulfilled. But just because they are “support” doesn’t mean they need stats in anything besides dps, all the things they use to support work just as good in zerker as they do in clerics, the difference is 2-4x more dps output (faster fights, less time to mess up, allows to ignore some mechanics compeltely… and lets face it faster is always better.)

Ranger must use spotter and frost spirit (those that don’t are a waste of space honestly, and there are A LOT of you out there)

warrior must use banners

ele must stack might via fire fields

etc…

To “fix” this the core game has to be completely redone from traits to stats to the encounters themselves. The crit dmg changes are not solving anything and is an extremely lazy response to terrible players crying about the “zerker” meta.

GW2 is not a failed experiment and the Trinity actually simplifies mechanics, not makes them more complex. This is due to the design of the Trinity – it is a ‘pew, pew’ mechanics and if you can’t taunt (the tank) the team wipes. THe Trinity also forces less build choices (Rift was a great example – they are many unique builds in the game but only one for each profession was usually used for RAIDS) and that was NOT by design but rather forced by the players.

They are redoing the traits, hence the patch tomorrow. They are redoing Crit damage because it scales improperly and you should not be able to have over 100% (IMO). That is why ‘zerker’ is the build of choice for the uniformed player. And many ‘zerker’ builds are glass cannons and that is why in WvW and sPvP they are not prevalent.

‘Zerker’ meta was picked by lazy players not the design team (although they said it does max damage at a cost to other things).

As far as conditions, it is OP in WvW/PvP but can be mitigated, if the build is more balanced. In PVE, if the conditions get more impact, they will also impact more on the players – it is a two-way street. If that happens, zerker will die because they really can’t handle all the conditions.

I guess every single hardcore PvE guild is misinformed. I guess relying solely on active mitigation and dodge is more lazy than relying on an extra 3-6k ehp buffer when veterans can hit for up to 9k. I Guess condition removals don’t exist.

Less builds? Are you serious? There is no diversity at all build wise in PvE meta at the highest level of play. Hell some HC guilds wont even let you use ranged weapons at all.

You can CHOOSE to play a heal stout warrior, but did anyone ever need the heals to begin with? Would it of just been better to be full dps and clear it that much faster. There are build choices, the problem is there is a clear cut best spec that if you aren’t running you are just a burden to be carried.

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Posted by: Khal Drogo.9631

Khal Drogo.9631

Ranger must use spotter and frost spirit (those that don’t are a waste of space honestly, and there are A LOT of you out there)

Spirits are useless they die very easily and u have to trait for them to be movable. Not everyone specs into marksmanship. That kind of build is only good for COF P1 and frost spirit would be bad even at SE P1.

Apologies to those who may find my posts on GW2 forums offensive and hateful.

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Posted by: digiowl.9620

digiowl.9620

The basic problem with PVE is that the mechanics are not made or balanced for PVE. They are centered around SPVP, but the mob and even design largely ignores this.

ANet heavy handedly enforce “active combat” in PVE by making mobs follow an attack pattern of plink,plink,NUKE. If you dodge/block/kite the nuke, you are golden. If not you better hope someone will revive you or be ready to start over. This pretty much nullifies defensive stats, while the very same stats are very important in SPVP.

And the less i say about the abomination that is Defiant, the better.

Also, something like a third of the skills of all professions are focused on capture point defense/denial. Those rarely if ever come into proper play in PVE because you are either fighting a big bag of health, or trying to get from A to B. That means offense offense offense.

As for combo fields, interesting idea but the implementation stinks. This likely because of “play the game, not the UI”. End result is that you can’t really tell if or when a field is up unless you happen to be on voip with the caster, and he yells out each time one pops. They are virtually invisible in the FX smog, are hard to tell apart, and have painfully short durations.

Right now the only thing that separates the professions in PVE are that some have to tap dance all over the keyboard for the same benefits that others get with their autoattack…

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Posted by: Zepidel.5349

Zepidel.5349

Ranger must use spotter and frost spirit (those that don’t are a waste of space honestly, and there are A LOT of you out there)

Spirits are useless they die very easily and u have to trait for them to be movable. Not everyone specs into marksmanship. That kind of build is only good for COF P1 and frost spirit would be bad even at SE P1.

This is why no one wants rangers in their group, they camp bearbow and dont have anything at all to contribute to the party. Spotter is 6-8% crit chance… thats HUGE in a zerk group dps wise, and badly placed spirits will die… you need to learn how to use them, they have 1k radius not like you need to be placing them at the bosses feet.

I mean at that point you a just a warrior camping longbow and not using banners.

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Posted by: Khal Drogo.9631

Khal Drogo.9631

Ranger must use spotter and frost spirit (those that don’t are a waste of space honestly, and there are A LOT of you out there)

Spirits are useless they die very easily and u have to trait for them to be movable. Not everyone specs into marksmanship. That kind of build is only good for COF P1 and frost spirit would be bad even at SE P1.

This is why no one wants rangers in their group, they camp bearbow and dont have anything at all to contribute to the party. Spotter is 6-8% crit chance… thats HUGE in a zerk group dps wise, and badly placed spirits will die… you need to learn how to use them, they have 1k radius not like you need to be placing them at the bosses feet.

I mean at that point you a just a warrior camping longbow and not using banners.

I use a perma-chill build with frost drake and frost trap. It has its moments. A lot of people underestimate perma-chill on bosses or mini-bosses if they are unable to remove it, even at the expense of DPS in the case of bosses that cannot be burst down as quickly.

Spotter is nice but speccing 20 in Marksmenship is a bit expensive for me. The other 3 traits are just not desirable.

Apologies to those who may find my posts on GW2 forums offensive and hateful.

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Posted by: Kurrilino.2706

Kurrilino.2706

GW2 PvE is a (failed?) experiment in no trinity gameplay.

All classes can survive any encounter without need of outside support, with base vitality, and base toughness…using only dodge and skills that actively mitigate damage. Meaning that all stats should be pumped into dps output.

Classes have roles, mesmers and guardians are “support” with reflections, condition removals, and skills only available to their class like time warp or virtues. Every class with the exception of necromancer and engineer also have support roles that need to be fulfilled. But just because they are “support” doesn’t mean they need stats in anything besides dps, all the things they use to support work just as good in zerker as they do in clerics, the difference is 2-4x more dps output (faster fights, less time to mess up, allows to ignore some mechanics compeltely… and lets face it faster is always better.)

Ranger must use spotter and frost spirit (those that don’t are a waste of space honestly, and there are A LOT of you out there)

warrior must use banners

ele must stack might via fire fields

etc…

To “fix” this the core game has to be completely redone from traits to stats to the encounters themselves. The crit dmg changes are not solving anything and is an extremely lazy response to terrible players crying about the “zerker” meta.

edit: there’s a reason why there is a question mark behind failed people. The reason I believe it to be failed is there is an optimal spec that never changes no matter the instance, or group comp. The only changes come from changing 2 or so utilities based on the fight if needed (do i need more condition removals? reflections? etc..). There is no healing mesmer, phantasmal tank, medic engineer, protection guardian, control ele, hexmaster necro, etc… there is just dps X , and certain things expected from them. Because using any of those other specs is just slowing your group down immensely.

This this and this………………

Give this man an award or at least listen to him.

As long as classes have no special reason exist the gameplay will be boring zerg fests.
The reason for having a mixed group ist…. uhmm.. there are mixed ??
That someone with a heavy armor can dodge at all is far beyond me while a ranger is going into close combatt when named “Ranger” ?
?
it is just this uninspred gameplay that kills me.
I still love to play GW1 and do that quite often with friends.
Not that GW2 is bad or something but they missed the point in doing a sequal for GW1. The gamers just don feel “at home”

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

GW2 PvE is a (failed?) experiment in no trinity gameplay.

All classes can survive any encounter without need of outside support, with base vitality, and base toughness…using only dodge and skills that actively mitigate damage. Meaning that all stats should be pumped into dps output.

Classes have roles, mesmers and guardians are “support” with reflections, condition removals, and skills only available to their class like time warp or virtues. Every class with the exception of necromancer and engineer also have support roles that need to be fulfilled. But just because they are “support” doesn’t mean they need stats in anything besides dps, all the things they use to support work just as good in zerker as they do in clerics, the difference is 2-4x more dps output (faster fights, less time to mess up, allows to ignore some mechanics compeltely… and lets face it faster is always better.)

Ranger must use spotter and frost spirit (those that don’t are a waste of space honestly, and there are A LOT of you out there)

warrior must use banners

ele must stack might via fire fields

etc…

To “fix” this the core game has to be completely redone from traits to stats to the encounters themselves. The crit dmg changes are not solving anything and is an extremely lazy response to terrible players crying about the “zerker” meta.

edit: there’s a reason why there is a question mark behind failed people. The reason I believe it to be failed is there is an optimal spec that never changes no matter the instance, or group comp. The only changes come from changing 2 or so utilities based on the fight if needed (do i need more condition removals? reflections? etc..). There is no healing mesmer, phantasmal tank, medic engineer, protection guardian, control ele, hexmaster necro, etc… there is just dps X , and certain things expected from them. Because using any of those other specs is just slowing your group down immensely.

This this and this………………

Give this man an award or at least listen to him.

As long as classes have no special reason exist the gameplay will be boring zerg fests.
The reason for having a mixed group ist…. uhmm.. there are mixed ??
That someone with a heavy armor can dodge at all is far beyond me while a ranger is going into close combatt when named “Ranger” ?
?
it is just this uninspred gameplay that kills me.
I still love to play GW1 and do that quite often with friends.
Not that GW2 is bad or something but they missed the point in doing a sequal for GW1. The gamers just don feel “at home”

I’m not positive but I don’t think he meant what you’re saying. He said that certain classes do have certain things that give them a minor roll in a group. Like a Mesmer with feedback or a banner warrior. But in order to get more specific Roles the entire game needs to be changed. From skills to traits to encounters.

Also rangers in fantasy have never been just range fighters. You’re misusing “ranger” and thinking “archer”.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

My opinion about mechanics in GW2 PVE

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Posted by: Kurrilino.2706

Kurrilino.2706

GW2 PvE is a (failed?) experiment in no trinity gameplay.

All classes can survive any encounter without need of outside support, with base vitality, and base toughness…using only dodge and skills that actively mitigate damage. Meaning that all stats should be pumped into dps output.

Classes have roles, mesmers and guardians are “support” with reflections, condition removals, and skills only available to their class like time warp or virtues. Every class with the exception of necromancer and engineer also have support roles that need to be fulfilled. But just because they are “support” doesn’t mean they need stats in anything besides dps, all the things they use to support work just as good in zerker as they do in clerics, the difference is 2-4x more dps output (faster fights, less time to mess up, allows to ignore some mechanics compeltely… and lets face it faster is always better.)

Ranger must use spotter and frost spirit (those that don’t are a waste of space honestly, and there are A LOT of you out there)

warrior must use banners

ele must stack might via fire fields

etc…

To “fix” this the core game has to be completely redone from traits to stats to the encounters themselves. The crit dmg changes are not solving anything and is an extremely lazy response to terrible players crying about the “zerker” meta.

people seem to enjoy it and it thrives economically. Where exactly is the fail? Fail does not equal “I donĀ“t like it personally”.

Is this a personal opinion or a fact ??
Dying population isn’t exactly pointing on “People seem to enjoy it”
BTW.. players couldn’t care less the game thrives economically when they haven’t fun playing it.

(edited by Kurrilino.2706)

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Posted by: SkylightMoon.1980

SkylightMoon.1980

Try Arah. Those trash mobs can be extremely tough to ignore. Dead eyes, I’m looking at you!

I also don’t think it’s fair to judge the whole of dungeon encounters on the second easiest path in the game.

Well unfortunately almost everyone skips these mobs because they are such a short aggro chain.

Well I mean. 1 hit kills from some of these trash mobs can make that point pretty moot. It’s all RNG.

I don’t understand the no skipping crowd, but I respect your right to play how you want. So I recommend just killing them all…. rather than attempting to stifle the options when running dungeons. Full clears of Arah need to be done and streamed…. please. I’m far too lazy to do it myself.

Then whats the point of having mobs there in the first place. I mean the devs are pretty lazy and havent yet patched the fact that you can skip these mobs. Mobs shouldn’t be skippable, if they are, why were they put there in the first place. Granted Arah is pretty long if you do the mobs but then they should just make the mobs easier or increase the rewards a lot more.

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Posted by: Neko.9021

Neko.9021

Recently in the dungeon subforum someone complained about the difficuluty of TA Aetherpath. The puzzles are distinct and the mechanics are strictly enforced. All the mobs must be fought and it’s pretty hard to just shrug off the mechanics of every enemy since they all hit fairly hard. The path itself is decently challenging.

Also, no one runs it.

The thing is, people hardly run dungeons at all. And the dungeons that do have uniquely hard mechanics or are challenging in any discernable way are just never run by the general community.

ANet has no incentive to create interestig enemies at a small-scale level because players have proven by their own play habits that by and large they prefer easy, grindy, mindless content, whether that is open world champ training or getting to fight in a huge zerg in WvW and run over people and call yourself a great PvPer. The entire system of GW2, for all of its great possibilities of small, precisely timed and skillfully played combat, truly encourages people to play at the lowest common denominator, and their attempts to make small content that is difficult has been spurned by the community in favor of more zerg farming and easy path farming if they actually DO dungeons. Sorrow’s Embrace might as well only have Path 1 and Path 3.

ANet can make unique and hard content like you said but why would they do that when most people would rather just do the easy and straightforward? Remember when AC2 used to be the most run path in the game. Now people hardly ever play it because the final boss actually requires a bit of effort, and people don’t want to put that in. ANet wants to make content people will play, not content that they won’t. There’s a reason they’ve abandoned dungeons.

(edited by Neko.9021)

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Try Arah. Those trash mobs can be extremely tough to ignore. Dead eyes, I’m looking at you!

I also don’t think it’s fair to judge the whole of dungeon encounters on the second easiest path in the game.

Well unfortunately almost everyone skips these mobs because they are such a short aggro chain.

Well I mean. 1 hit kills from some of these trash mobs can make that point pretty moot. It’s all RNG.

I don’t understand the no skipping crowd, but I respect your right to play how you want. So I recommend just killing them all…. rather than attempting to stifle the options when running dungeons. Full clears of Arah need to be done and streamed…. please. I’m far too lazy to do it myself.

Then whats the point of having mobs there in the first place. I mean the devs are pretty lazy and havent yet patched the fact that you can skip these mobs. Mobs shouldn’t be skippable, if they are, why were they put there in the first place. Granted Arah is pretty long if you do the mobs but then they should just make the mobs easier or increase the rewards a lot more.

Well I mean what’s hard about killing them? Nothing. There’s a little challenge and skill required to skip them successfully but killing them requires nothing interesting at all. The choice of: kill the things so I don’t need to successfully skip or successfully skip to save time so you can spend more time in dungeons is the trade off. The nice part is the option. I can kill stuff so I don’t have to worry about the difficulty of a skip in Arah or I can learn how to mitigate the CC and damage in order to skip. Depends on my mood. But the choice is there and that is what matters.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: SkylightMoon.1980

SkylightMoon.1980

Recently in the dungeon subforum someone complained about the difficuluty of TA Aetherpath. The puzzles are distinct and the mechanics are strictly enforced. All the mobs must be fought and it’s pretty hard to just shrug off the mechanics of every enemy since they all hit fairly hard. The path itself is decently challenging.

Also, no one runs it.

The thing is, people hardly run dungeons at all. And the dungeons that do have uniquely hard mechanics or are challenging in any discernable way are just never run by the general community.

ANet has no incentive to create interestig enemies at a small-scale level because players have proven by their own play habits that by and large they prefer easy, grindy, mindless content, whether that is open world champ training or getting to fight in a huge zerg in WvW and run over people and call yourself a great PvPer. The entire system of GW2, for all of its great possibilities of small, precisely timed and skillfully played combat, truly encourages people to play at the lowest common denominator, and their attempts to make small content that is difficult has been spurned by the community in favor of more zerg farming and easy path farming if they actually DO dungeons. Sorrow’s Embrace might as well only have Path 1 and Path 3.

ANet can make unique and hard content like you said but why would they do that when most people would rather just do the easy and straightforward? Remember when AC2 used to be the most run path in the game. Now people hardly ever play it because the final boss actually requires a bit of effort, and people don’t want to put that in. ANet wants to make content people will play, not content that they won’t. There’s a reason they’ve abandoned dungeons.

I saw that and it was a pretty pathetic post along with everyone who +1’ed him lol. The reason they feel its hard is because they are used to easy content they can use the same strategy on. I mean anyone who regularily runs dungeons in some sort of speed running guild will go do TA aether for the first time and be confused as to why they cant fiery greatsword their way through the first part.

Its a fun path, I could agree that there is too much emphasis on puzzles, but I certainly appreciated the first one. I thought the first boss fight was also interesting, its not really kittence you know what to do but still fun mechanics. I appreciate any boss now that requires you to do more than sit in one place and press 1.

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

I use a perma-chill build with frost drake and frost trap. It has its moments. A lot of people underestimate perma-chill on bosses or mini-bosses if they are unable to remove it, even at the expense of DPS in the case of bosses that cannot be burst down as quickly.

Spotter is nice but speccing 20 in Marksmenship is a bit expensive for me. The other 3 traits are just not desirable.

Isn’t bosses immune to the CD increase of chill?

edit:

Putting 30 points in Marsmanship gives 300 power (great) and 30% condi duration (can be good with vulnerability) meanwhile giving both you and the pet Opening strike with a guaranteed crit and those apply vuln, which is good at the start of the fight.
Also changing Remorseless to Signet of the beastmaster enables you to go invulnerable for 12 sec (15 if you are sylvari) which can be good in dredge fractal for example. But yeah, power is for exploiters, stack defensive stats.

(edited by Dalanor.5387)

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Posted by: Zepidel.5349

Zepidel.5349

Recently in the dungeon subforum someone complained about the difficuluty of TA Aetherpath. The puzzles are distinct and the mechanics are strictly enforced. All the mobs must be fought and it’s pretty hard to just shrug off the mechanics of every enemy since they all hit fairly hard. The path itself is decently challenging.

Also, no one runs it.

The thing is, people hardly run dungeons at all. And the dungeons that do have uniquely hard mechanics or are challenging in any discernable way are just never run by the general community.

ANet has no incentive to create interestig enemies at a small-scale level because players have proven by their own play habits that by and large they prefer easy, grindy, mindless content, whether that is open world champ training or getting to fight in a huge zerg in WvW and run over people and call yourself a great PvPer. The entire system of GW2, for all of its great possibilities of small, precisely timed and skillfully played combat, truly encourages people to play at the lowest common denominator, and their attempts to make small content that is difficult has been spurned by the community in favor of more zerg farming and easy path farming if they actually DO dungeons. Sorrow’s Embrace might as well only have Path 1 and Path 3.

Anet can make unique and hard content like you said but why would they do that when most people would rather just do the easy and straightforward? Remember when AC2 used to be the most run path in the game. Now people hardly ever play it because the final boss actually requires a bit of effort, and people don’t want to put that in. ANet wants to make content people will play, not content that they won’t. There’s a reason they’ve abandoned dungeons.

It’s Anet’s fault.

TA aetherblade isn’t hard, you just need voice communication, or a group full or vets who know what to do. And the final boss is one of the easiest bosses in the game, its way too easy to res dead people in the fight due to the size of the room and how slow the boss moves.

The problem is why run that path when it takes 3x longer, and requires a good group when the rewards are exactly the same as F/U?

What we need is extremely hard dungeons/raid content that rewards ascended gear with it’s tokens.

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Posted by: Kurrilino.2706

Kurrilino.2706

GW2 PvE is a (failed?) experiment in no trinity gameplay.

All classes can survive any encounter without need of outside support, with base vitality, and base toughness…using only dodge and skills that actively mitigate damage. Meaning that all stats should be pumped into dps output.

Classes have roles, mesmers and guardians are “support” with reflections, condition removals, and skills only available to their class like time warp or virtues. Every class with the exception of necromancer and engineer also have support roles that need to be fulfilled. But just because they are “support” doesn’t mean they need stats in anything besides dps, all the things they use to support work just as good in zerker as they do in clerics, the difference is 2-4x more dps output (faster fights, less time to mess up, allows to ignore some mechanics compeltely… and lets face it faster is always better.)

Ranger must use spotter and frost spirit (those that don’t are a waste of space honestly, and there are A LOT of you out there)

warrior must use banners

ele must stack might via fire fields

etc…

To “fix” this the core game has to be completely redone from traits to stats to the encounters themselves. The crit dmg changes are not solving anything and is an extremely lazy response to terrible players crying about the “zerker” meta.

edit: there’s a reason why there is a question mark behind failed people. The reason I believe it to be failed is there is an optimal spec that never changes no matter the instance, or group comp. The only changes come from changing 2 or so utilities based on the fight if needed (do i need more condition removals? reflections? etc..). There is no healing mesmer, phantasmal tank, medic engineer, protection guardian, control ele, hexmaster necro, etc… there is just dps X , and certain things expected from them. Because using any of those other specs is just slowing your group down immensely.

This this and this………………

Give this man an award or at least listen to him.

As long as classes have no special reason exist the gameplay will be boring zerg fests.
The reason for having a mixed group ist…. uhmm.. there are mixed ??
That someone with a heavy armor can dodge at all is far beyond me while a ranger is going into close combatt when named “Ranger” ?
?
it is just this uninspred gameplay that kills me.
I still love to play GW1 and do that quite often with friends.
Not that GW2 is bad or something but they missed the point in doing a sequal for GW1. The gamers just don feel “at home”

I’m not positive but I don’t think he meant what you’re saying. He said that certain classes do have certain things that give them a minor roll in a group. Like a Mesmer with feedback or a banner warrior. But in order to get more specific Roles the entire game needs to be changed. From skills to traits to encounters.

Also rangers in fantasy have never been just range fighters. You’re misusing “ranger” and thinking “archer”.

well Ranger comes from range ?
How is close combat range ?

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Posted by: nGumball.1283

nGumball.1283

People always tend to forget that the game was nerfed because of player-suggestions on these same forums. If you tried the game back in time, you would have known that the dungeons and dynamic events were so hard,and some of the most challenging in the MMO industry.

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

GW2 PvE is a (failed?) experiment in no trinity gameplay.

All classes can survive any encounter without need of outside support, with base vitality, and base toughness…using only dodge and skills that actively mitigate damage. Meaning that all stats should be pumped into dps output.

Classes have roles, mesmers and guardians are “support” with reflections, condition removals, and skills only available to their class like time warp or virtues. Every class with the exception of necromancer and engineer also have support roles that need to be fulfilled. But just because they are “support” doesn’t mean they need stats in anything besides dps, all the things they use to support work just as good in zerker as they do in clerics, the difference is 2-4x more dps output (faster fights, less time to mess up, allows to ignore some mechanics compeltely… and lets face it faster is always better.)

Ranger must use spotter and frost spirit (those that don’t are a waste of space honestly, and there are A LOT of you out there)

warrior must use banners

ele must stack might via fire fields

etc…

To “fix” this the core game has to be completely redone from traits to stats to the encounters themselves. The crit dmg changes are not solving anything and is an extremely lazy response to terrible players crying about the “zerker” meta.

edit: there’s a reason why there is a question mark behind failed people. The reason I believe it to be failed is there is an optimal spec that never changes no matter the instance, or group comp. The only changes come from changing 2 or so utilities based on the fight if needed (do i need more condition removals? reflections? etc..). There is no healing mesmer, phantasmal tank, medic engineer, protection guardian, control ele, hexmaster necro, etc… there is just dps X , and certain things expected from them. Because using any of those other specs is just slowing your group down immensely.

This this and this………………

Give this man an award or at least listen to him.

As long as classes have no special reason exist the gameplay will be boring zerg fests.
The reason for having a mixed group ist…. uhmm.. there are mixed ??
That someone with a heavy armor can dodge at all is far beyond me while a ranger is going into close combatt when named “Ranger” ?
?
it is just this uninspred gameplay that kills me.
I still love to play GW1 and do that quite often with friends.
Not that GW2 is bad or something but they missed the point in doing a sequal for GW1. The gamers just don feel “at home”

I’m not positive but I don’t think he meant what you’re saying. He said that certain classes do have certain things that give them a minor roll in a group. Like a Mesmer with feedback or a banner warrior. But in order to get more specific Roles the entire game needs to be changed. From skills to traits to encounters.

Also rangers in fantasy have never been just range fighters. You’re misusing “ranger” and thinking “archer”.

well Ranger comes from range ?
How is close combat range ?

This may be illuminating: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_

Think Aragorn from LOTR.

Archery and (often dual-wielding) swordplay are common to rangers, though there are many instances where rangers use a variety of weapons, skills, and sometimes magic or have a resistance to magic.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

well Ranger comes from range ?
How is close combat range ?

Ranger =/= archer.
Ranger = Aragorn
Archer = Legolas

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Posted by: SkylightMoon.1980

SkylightMoon.1980

Recently in the dungeon subforum someone complained about the difficuluty of TA Aetherpath. The puzzles are distinct and the mechanics are strictly enforced. All the mobs must be fought and it’s pretty hard to just shrug off the mechanics of every enemy since they all hit fairly hard. The path itself is decently challenging.

Also, no one runs it.

The thing is, people hardly run dungeons at all. And the dungeons that do have uniquely hard mechanics or are challenging in any discernable way are just never run by the general community.

ANet has no incentive to create interestig enemies at a small-scale level because players have proven by their own play habits that by and large they prefer easy, grindy, mindless content, whether that is open world champ training or getting to fight in a huge zerg in WvW and run over people and call yourself a great PvPer. The entire system of GW2, for all of its great possibilities of small, precisely timed and skillfully played combat, truly encourages people to play at the lowest common denominator, and their attempts to make small content that is difficult has been spurned by the community in favor of more zerg farming and easy path farming if they actually DO dungeons. Sorrow’s Embrace might as well only have Path 1 and Path 3.

Anet can make unique and hard content like you said but why would they do that when most people would rather just do the easy and straightforward? Remember when AC2 used to be the most run path in the game. Now people hardly ever play it because the final boss actually requires a bit of effort, and people don’t want to put that in. ANet wants to make content people will play, not content that they won’t. There’s a reason they’ve abandoned dungeons.

It’s Anet’s fault.

TA aetherblade isn’t hard, you just need voice communication, or a group full or vets who know what to do. And the final boss is one of the easiest bosses in the game, its way too easy to res dead people in the fight due to the size of the room and how slow the boss moves.

The problem is why run that path when it takes 3x longer, and requires a good group when the rewards are exactly the same as F/U?

What we need is extremely hard dungeons/raid content that rewards ascended gear with it’s tokens.

^ this

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Posted by: Jahroots.6791

Jahroots.6791

If posts in the forums, and actual participation in hard content (Tequatl for example) are any indication of what the GW2 population wants, then your suggestions would be bad for this game.

I also can’t imagine anyone fighting Ginva and thinking to themselves ‘This fight is cool, but it should be harder!’. That guy already takes way too long as is.

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Posted by: Zepidel.5349

Zepidel.5349

If posts in the forums, and actual participation in hard content (Tequatl for example) are any indication of what the GW2 population wants, then your suggestions would be bad for this game.

I also can’t imagine anyone fighting Ginva and thinking to themselves ‘This fight is cool, but it should be harder!’. That guy already takes way too long as is.

Teq isnt an example of hard content. Its an example of taking something that should be an instanced 20-40 man raid and turning it into a giant mess that requires 120 people and an empty server to guest to to purge out pugs. Guilds like TS have it on farmode 3 times a day like clockwork, and there is no requirement to join, its not an elitist HC guild by any measure.

Givna takes a while if your group isnt full zerker thats for sure, but its around 2 minutes in a proper group, probably under 30 seconds in a HC meta group. And he does need to be harder, whens the last time you have EVER wiped on him? He only has 1 dangerous attack that’s extremely easy to avoid, and guess what? EVERYONE ignores the fight mechanic, they just dps him with all 4 totems up (I don’t imagine the guy who designed that particular fight meant for it to be that way).

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

well Ranger comes from range ?
How is close combat range ?

The term Ranger comes not from “range” (to attack from afar) but from “range” (to wander or rove). It’s a lore based profession name, not a mechanics based one. The same is true of “Thief,” as mechanically, the Thief Profession is more like a skirmisher.

Recently in the dungeon subforum someone complained about the difficuluty of TA Aetherpath. The puzzles are distinct and the mechanics are strictly enforced. All the mobs must be fought and it’s pretty hard to just shrug off the mechanics of every enemy since they all hit fairly hard. The path itself is decently challenging.

Also, no one runs it.

The thing is, people hardly run dungeons at all. And the dungeons that do have uniquely hard mechanics or are challenging in any discernable way are just never run by the general community.

ANet has no incentive to create interestig enemies at a small-scale level because players have proven by their own play habits that by and large they prefer easy, grindy, mindless content, whether that is open world champ training or getting to fight in a huge zerg in WvW and run over people and call yourself a great PvPer. The entire system of GW2, for all of its great possibilities of small, precisely timed and skillfully played combat, truly encourages people to play at the lowest common denominator, and their attempts to make small content that is difficult has been spurned by the community in favor of more zerg farming and easy path farming if they actually DO dungeons. Sorrow’s Embrace might as well only have Path 1 and Path 3.

ANet can make unique and hard content like you said but why would they do that when most people would rather just do the easy and straightforward? Remember when AC2 used to be the most run path in the game. Now people hardly ever play it because the final boss actually requires a bit of effort, and people don’t want to put that in. ANet wants to make content people will play, not content that they won’t. There’s a reason they’ve abandoned dungeons.

Yes, a lot of the problems players perceive in GW2 are the result of player choices and desires. MMO communities are large and diverse. They do not speak with one voice, even though forum posters tend to jump on bandwagons from time to time.

TA Aetherpath was an ANet experiment to see whether enough of the community really wanted more challenging mechanics in a dungeon path. They of course can look at metrics to see whether the experiment was a success or failure. Based on Neko and my observations, the path is underutilized.

Tequatl was an experiment to see whether enough people want challenging, large, open world encounters. Based on the creation of the Tri-Wurm encounter, I’d say that ANet decided there was more interest in that type of challenge than there was in challenging dungeon paths.

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Posted by: Xae Isareth.1364

Xae Isareth.1364

^ that’s not because people don’t want to run hard dungeons but because rewards are screwed up. AC3 takes 15 mins, faceroll. Arah P3 takes 30 on average, a hour with bad players, a lot harder.

…. yet they give the same rewards. No one ever plays MMO content just for laughs and giggles, players will always ask ’where’s the loot?‘. If there is no loot, people won’t do it.

This is why Aetherpath failed. It wasn’t because no one liked it, you got a lot of people who loved it. It failed because there’s just no point doing it.

You get 2g. Great, same as a AC run and gathering a few iron nodes, which takes a fraction of the time and effort of Aetherpath. The chances of you getting an Aether skin is so low it might as well not be there, meaning most people walk out after with a sour taste in their mouths, feeling like hey wasted their time, and swear to never do it again.

People want hard, interesting and challenging content, but it needs good loot to reward you. Look at raids in other games. They can take months of practice to nail down yet players still sign up in droves for them in guilds and everyone asks ‘how are the raids in this game?’ for every new MMO.

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Posted by: Dusty Moon.4382

Dusty Moon.4382

^ that’s not because people don’t want to run hard dungeons but because rewards are screwed up. AC3 takes 15 mins, faceroll. Arah P3 takes 30 on average, a hour with bad players, a lot harder.

…. yet they give the same rewards. No one ever plays MMO content just for laughs and giggles, players will always ask ’where’s the loot?‘. If there is no loot, people won’t do it.

This is why Aetherpath failed. It wasn’t because no one liked it, you got a lot of people who loved it. It failed because there’s just no point doing it.

You get 2g. Great, same as a AC run and gathering a few iron nodes, which takes a fraction of the time and effort of Aetherpath. The chances of you getting an Aether skin is so low it might as well not be there, meaning most people walk out after with a sour taste in their mouths, feeling like hey wasted their time, and swear to never do it again.

People want hard, interesting and challenging content, but it needs good loot to reward you. Look at raids in other games. They can take months of practice to nail down yet players still sign up in droves for them in guilds and everyone asks ‘how are the raids in this game?’ for every new MMO.

RAIDS – another useless MMO mechanic. I have done enough RAIDS to know that if a game has them, I probably won’t be playing the game long. It is too ’leet’ist and just too doggone boring.

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Posted by: Xae Isareth.1364

Xae Isareth.1364

^ that’s completely your opinion, and by the looks of how most MMOs have raids (they must be there for a reason), you’re probably a minority.

And what’s so bad about them? If you don’t like them, then just dont join a raid.

I don’t like sPvP because I don’t particularly enjoy PvP based around bunkering in circles to win, but you don’t see me petitioning sPvP to be removed from GW2 :/

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

This is why Aetherpath failed. It wasn’t because no one liked it, you got a lot of people who loved it. It failed because there’s just no point doing it.

In other words, people want rewards more than they want challenge. The lifespan of Challenge in MMO PvE is precisely as long as it takes for those who want it to master the content, after which it is no longer challenging. The lifespan of reward-based content is as long as the rewards are worth it. Given that (per-launch) the entire game was supposed to have been about fun, I’d say that the masses have spoken.

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Posted by: Lobo Dela Noche.5127

Lobo Dela Noche.5127

This is why Aetherpath failed. It wasn’t because no one liked it, you got a lot of people who loved it. It failed because there’s just no point doing it.

In other words, people want rewards more than they want challenge. The lifespan of Challenge in MMO PvE is precisely as long as it takes for those who want it to master the content, after which it is no longer challenging. The lifespan of reward-based content is as long as the rewards are worth it. Given that (per-launch) the entire game was supposed to have been about fun, I’d say that the masses have spoken.

That’s just it, the magic gets lost after you run something even 5-10 times, let alone 100. So the loot needs to be there to keep players interested. If the rewards were there for everything and the rewards were equal based on average time of completion then you would see more dungeons get run.

But the rewards are not equal so if I can run something in 15 min and get the same reward as something that take an hour then I will. Every MMO I have ever played is like that.

(edited by Lobo Dela Noche.5127)

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Posted by: Xae Isareth.1364

Xae Isareth.1364

This is why Aetherpath failed. It wasn’t because no one liked it, you got a lot of people who loved it. It failed because there’s just no point doing it.

In other words, people want rewards more than they want challenge. The lifespan of Challenge in MMO PvE is precisely as long as it takes for those who want it to master the content, after which it is no longer challenging. The lifespan of reward-based content is as long as the rewards are worth it. Given that (per-launch) the entire game was supposed to have been about fun, I’d say that the masses have spoken.

Its not that at its core. A decade of MMORPGs has conditioned MMO gamers to expect rewards for doing anything in the game. Even if its the first time you run a raid, you still expect raid drops.

You can’t make a MMO purely based on ‘fun’, because the masses wouldn’t bother with it.

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Posted by: Khal Drogo.9631

Khal Drogo.9631

I use a perma-chill build with frost drake and frost trap. It has its moments. A lot of people underestimate perma-chill on bosses or mini-bosses if they are unable to remove it, even at the expense of DPS in the case of bosses that cannot be burst down as quickly.

Spotter is nice but speccing 20 in Marksmenship is a bit expensive for me. The other 3 traits are just not desirable.

Isn’t bosses immune to the CD increase of chill?

edit:

Putting 30 points in Marsmanship gives 300 power (great) and 30% condi duration (can be good with vulnerability) meanwhile giving both you and the pet Opening strike with a guaranteed crit and those apply vuln, which is good at the start of the fight.
Also changing Remorseless to Signet of the beastmaster enables you to go invulnerable for 12 sec (15 if you are sylvari) which can be good in dredge fractal for example. But yeah, power is for exploiters, stack defensive stats.

Err no. <Sarcasm>A one-off one guaranteed crit + 6s of possible 10 stacks of vuln so OP. </Sarcasm> esp in boss fights. +300 power is nice Condi duration not so much if you are not a condi ranger. I dont need 20/30% additional condi duration what is already a perm chill build. So many other traits that are not useful unless u want go bearbow. You can always make up the stats with your gear.

I am not sure if bosses skills are immune to chill CD but even slow movement and slow skill activation (not sure about this either, but animation of special attacks seems slower) seems to be worth it. I forgot to mention its AOE perma chill esp with twin sigils of hydromancy albeit with a small radius that deals with swarms of mobs nicely.

Btw 12s of invul is a best case scenario which uses 2 util skill slots with lengthy cooldowns.

Seriously who insults people who don’t pick the Marksmanship trait line for PVE and in his case speccing fully into it?

Apologies to those who may find my posts on GW2 forums offensive and hateful.

(edited by Khal Drogo.9631)

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Posted by: Lalangamena.3694

Lalangamena.3694

aetehrblade is not hard it just sucks, same for cof3
gimmic mechanix cannot replace group synergy.

also intended dungeon design doesn’t work and abused.
effigy in cof1 killed ignoring the crystals, lupy is killed pushed to the wall. etc etc.

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Posted by: Mac.3872

Mac.3872

Recently in the dungeon subforum someone complained about the difficuluty of TA Aetherpath. The puzzles are distinct and the mechanics are strictly enforced. All the mobs must be fought and it’s pretty hard to just shrug off the mechanics of every enemy since they all hit fairly hard. The path itself is decently challenging.

Also, no one runs it.

The thing is, people hardly run dungeons at all. And the dungeons that do have uniquely hard mechanics or are challenging in any discernable way are just never run by the general community.

ANet has no incentive to create interestig enemies at a small-scale level because players have proven by their own play habits that by and large they prefer easy, grindy, mindless content, whether that is open world champ training or getting to fight in a huge zerg in WvW and run over people and call yourself a great PvPer. The entire system of GW2, for all of its great possibilities of small, precisely timed and skillfully played combat, truly encourages people to play at the lowest common denominator, and their attempts to make small content that is difficult has been spurned by the community in favor of more zerg farming and easy path farming if they actually DO dungeons. Sorrow’s Embrace might as well only have Path 1 and Path 3.

Anet can make unique and hard content like you said but why would they do that when most people would rather just do the easy and straightforward? Remember when AC2 used to be the most run path in the game. Now people hardly ever play it because the final boss actually requires a bit of effort, and people don’t want to put that in. ANet wants to make content people will play, not content that they won’t. There’s a reason they’ve abandoned dungeons.

It’s Anet’s fault.

TA aetherblade isn’t hard, you just need voice communication, or a group full or vets who know what to do. And the final boss is one of the easiest bosses in the game, its way too easy to res dead people in the fight due to the size of the room and how slow the boss moves.

The problem is why run that path when it takes 3x longer, and requires a good group when the rewards are exactly the same as F/U?

What we need is extremely hard dungeons/raid content that rewards ascended gear with it’s tokens.

I completely agree. Harder content NEEDS better rewards, or people will just take the path of least resistance.

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Posted by: Knighthonor.4061

Knighthonor.4061

Add a real trinity system and problem solved…

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Add a real trinity system and problem solved…

How about no.

Some of us are quite happy without it, thank you.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: Kibazuka.1390

Kibazuka.1390

Your example is lacking. The totems arent ignored because they do nothing, they are actually fairly annoying as it is, making Ginva -altough easy- one of the longest and most annoying bosses in the game even for optimized groups.
This has nothing to do with stacking, zerker gear, running past mobs or whatever other reason you antis always come up with.
The reason they are ignored is they have decent health but spawn literally in SECONDS after you destroy them so there really is no point whatsoever in destroying them because they will be there in like 5 seconds again. Giving them a huge buff to the passives and then setting the respawn to 30 seconds minimum already would help a great deal.

And lol to Aetherpath being not rewarding. AC1 takes 12-15 mins and gives 1.5 gold, Aether takes 20 mins and gives 2 gold + chance for unique skin worth 200-700 gold(and yes, the chances are quite a bit higher than some precursor, so save your “but i can get dusk from random moas in Queensdale, this means nothing” argument). Doesnt sound all that bad to me.
If you wine about Aether being not rewarding enough for the time you spent in there you should get.. what was it again? Ah yeah: Better. Since GW2 takes no skill like every one always claims there should ne no problem in running Aether in a rewarding time no?
Arah and Fractals 50 are the same, all are extremely rewarding. Yes, they need effort – read: skill – in order to be worth the time. But once you did that ‘effort’ and reached the ‘skill’ needed the only thing that matters is the ‘time’ in which you can complete the content and these offer the best time/reward-ratio. If you buff the reward the skilled would get too rich.
But as it seems they dont get completed that often. Why is that? Because most players are bad and cant do it. If GW2 really is all that easy, braindead, simple, no skill, a monkey does it blabla like many claim these should get completed way more often.
See, when the price for Aetherweapons drops because the supply is so high and no one is buying those arah path 4 slots anymore because they dont need to, THEN we can start to argue about GW2 being casualonlynoskillzeasieztandmostbadmmothereeverwas :’)

Ranger – Drakkar Lake[DE]
Full melee Ranger since August 2012

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Posted by: mooty.4560

mooty.4560

OP, this is definitely a rehashed issue and I think it’s a valid criticism but the answer seems to be somewhere between Arenanet lacking the development skills to churn out your typical MMORPG instances(those of us from certain other games know there is much more interesting PvE out there) and wanting to appease the casual crowd.

I think you’re right about trash/boss mechanics being negligible but you’re also right about the game play mechanics. There is very little cohesion between classes so the focus must be on the content itself to create challenges.

I think the Aetherblade path is promising in terms of demonstrating that they can potentially make a dungeon path that has a little depth to it. There’s always going to be some 5% guy saying it’s a cakewalk but that person isn’t being realistic about the whole of the player base and is only speaking for themself. However, it’s just one path in one dungeon and I can only hope that’s not indicative of a minority development philosophy.

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Posted by: Stooperdale.3560

Stooperdale.3560

Remember that dungeons are nowadays run with repeatedly tested tactics that are getting close to an optimum level. The tactics will see you through most fights even with mediocre dodges and cleansing. The dungeons were not designed to be hard even with optimum tactics shared through the web. They were designed to be hard for groups with some tactics and some improvisation during the dungeon. The dungeons meet that purpose. Dungeons are near impossible for beginners and straightforward for experienced players, as they should be. More builds are viable if your purpose is to get through a dungeon for the first time rather than just do a daily speed clearance.

Discussing the optimum speed running builds with optimum tactics is not going to get noticed by the designers. As soon as you min/max the game to that extent there will inevitably be only one or two popular builds, no matter how hard the designers try to balance the game. If a player picks up tactics straight from the web and then becomes disappointed that they work too well … is it really a surprise?

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Posted by: Dusty Moon.4382

Dusty Moon.4382

Add a real trinity system and problem solved…

That would be going backwards not forwards. Many of the bosses would ignore a tank or totally destroy one, the way the current mechanics are. The Trinity is so simple as to be mind-numbing – The tank taunts to get agro and keeps agro that way – the healers heal the tanks and DPS, the DPS ‘PEW-PEW’ – WOW that is really complex!!!

In order to get your ‘favored’ game mechanic – the whole game would have to be redone. That only happens with FF games.

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

This thread is full of people that are missing some points.

1 – Content was designed around difficulty at game launch not 1+ year after – that’s why most dungeons seem trivial at best now. Because players have had time to learn, adapt, get better at the game and understand its core mechanics. People can now dodge and use their rotations properly.

I remember doing AC story and having trouble with the lovers – but that was when we were level 40 something and didn’t know what’s what. Same goes for the totems the OP mentioned.

Change these mechanics and what will you do with new players? You’re making the content too hard for them.

2- Most people do dungeons for the loot not the experience of doing a dungeon – change the mechanics and make them too demanding and you’ll simply have a ghost town of a dungeon that nobody does.

3 – Professions names don’t define how they should play out – this is pretty much obvious. I would love it if the Thief profession actually work like its name. I would spend all day in WvW stealing gold off people and amassing a small fortune. I wouldn’t even bother fighting.

So what are the solutions? If we look back at GW1 the solution is clear : Hard Mode – more difficulty for more reward. Triple the threat and triple the reward – give good players recognition for their skills.
Give average players something to strive for.

Give the challenge lovers a run for their money with difficult content.

Give the loot-freaks a reason to keep on grinding.

I don’t really see how this could go wrong – it would revitalize the dungeons and infuse the game with meaningful content while spending little in time and resources for Anet.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”