Guild Wars 2

bLind.6278:

The main thing that prevents me from wanting to give ANet money is simple – if I’m paying a company to play a game, I want to enjoy it. I don’t want to pay a company and then feel like I’m going to work each time I log in.

And now you know why MMO’s are dying out in the western market.

DeceiverX.8361:

Vayne.8563:

Michael.9403:

Vayne.8563:

I guarantee you, just from knowing how Anet works, that the new expansion will nothing at all like HoT. Anet has always been hyper-reactive to crticism. Always.

I can’t speak to that. However, lest we miss who is pulling on the puppet strings and who is dancing, note that NCSOFT announces to investors that they need another expansion, and ANET shelves the popular Legendary crafting indefinitely and moves the people to the expansion, to speed it up.

But you ignore that fact that NcSoft has been claiming an expansion was coming soon since the first report after Guild Wars 2 launched. You have a data point of 1 and your’e trying to draw conclusions from it.

NcSoft has always said an expansion was coming even when Anet didn’t say it and wasn’t actively working on it.

From past experience with the company, I don’t think NcSoft has too much control over Anet. For example, for ages, people said the reason Anet had their silence policy was due to NcSoft. Yet NcSoft owned Wildstar too and they didn’t have a silence policy.

No, I think that Anet would have done this anyway, as a response to the vocally negative reaction to the first expansion and the fact that it didn’t meet expectations.

What you said only supports his argument in that NCSoft controls the inevitable flow of content out of sheer business logic versus how ANet plans to operate.

You mean NcSoft announced an expansion time and time again and Anet doesn’t start working on it until two years later and that shows Anet is obeying NcSoft. Okay then.

darkace.8925:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

As usuall I do beleave in Anet that they will do good, now it is up to the players and not keep the grudge from HoT.

Both your trust and your blame seem to be misplaced. After Heart of Thorns turned out to be lackluster – by ArenaNet’s own admission – perhaps you shouldn’t be so quick to place your faith in them. And to suggest that the customers – whose trust was just violated – should be so quick to forgive and forget that violation rather than approach the next expansion with a skeptical eye is just naive.

There’s a difference between saying HoT was lackluster and sales were lackluster and there’s a lot of reason to explain it, other than the quality of the expansion.

For example the decision to nerf dungeon rewards wasn’t part of the expansion and didn’t have to happen. The decision not to include a character slot didn’t have to happen. The negative publicity from day one made the expansion sales weaker than they would have been. No one really knows how different if would have been if other bad decisions hadn’’t been made.

I don’t personally find the expansion lackluster and I know I’m not alone in this.

darkace.8925:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

As usuall I do beleave in Anet that they will do good, now it is up to the players and not keep the grudge from HoT.

Both your trust and your blame seem to be misplaced. After Heart of Thorns turned out to be lackluster – by ArenaNet’s own admission – perhaps you shouldn’t be so quick to place your faith in them. And to suggest that the customers – whose trust was just violated – should be so quick to forgive and forget that violation rather than approach the next expansion with a skeptical eye is just naive.

Well just as I said, we are all different and some of us have a reason to hate GW2 enough now to not even consider buying the second expansion. For mine and Anets sake I hope there are not lots people who thinks like you.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

As usuall I do beleave in Anet that they will do good, now it is up to the players and not keep the grudge from HoT.

I don’t know about keeping a grudge but if a company takes my money then doesn’t give me what I paid for then I’m most definitely going to remember that the next time they ask for my money. I’ll consider any promised advertisements for things that will be added later as “vaporpromises” and not to be relied on.

Well I can understand that and I where one who felt cheated like that I would not buy atleast a pre -order, I would rather wait. That’s different to what I meant. I meant I hope people are so angry that they will not even consider looking at Anets titles anymore.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

As usuall I do beleave in Anet that they will do good, now it is up to the players and not keep the grudge from HoT.

I don’t know about keeping a grudge but if a company takes my money then doesn’t give me what I paid for then I’m most definitely going to remember that the next time they ask for my money. I’ll consider any promised advertisements for things that will be added later as “vaporpromises” and not to be relied on.

Well I can understand that and I where one who felt cheated like that I would not buy atleast a pre -order, I would rather wait. That’s different to what I meant. I meant I hope people are so angry that they will not even consider looking at Anets titles anymore.

I didn’t preorder HoT and sure as heck won’t preorder their next expansion. I waited until I read about the mess, weighed my options, and finally after a couple of balancing patches, coughed up the $$. Would do the same with another expansion.

Let’s face it, people who preorder are not competent consumers.

The only way you can convince me to preorder would be to offer something of immense value (permanent bank slot, legendary weapon, legendary armor set) not something cosmetic (My Little Pony backpack with sparkly fairy lights that have a constant glow affect). I don’t play a game to look pretty as I’m not a 10 year old girl.

misterman.1530:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

As usuall I do beleave in Anet that they will do good, now it is up to the players and not keep the grudge from HoT.

I don’t know about keeping a grudge but if a company takes my money then doesn’t give me what I paid for then I’m most definitely going to remember that the next time they ask for my money. I’ll consider any promised advertisements for things that will be added later as “vaporpromises” and not to be relied on.

Well I can understand that and I where one who felt cheated like that I would not buy atleast a pre -order, I would rather wait. That’s different to what I meant. I meant I hope people are so angry that they will not even consider looking at Anets titles anymore.

I didn’t preorder HoT and sure as heck won’t preorder their next expansion. I waited until I read about the mess, weighed my options, and finally after a couple of balancing patches, coughed up the $$. Would do the same with another expansion.

Let’s face it, people who preorder are not competent consumers.

The only way you can convince me to preorder would be to offer something of immense value (permanent bank slot, legendary weapon, legendary armor set) not something cosmetic (My Little Pony backpack with sparkly fairy lights that have a constant glow affect). I don’t play a game to look pretty as I’m not a 10 year old girl.

This is a little judgemental. Are you saying adults can’t play a game to look pretty or cool? Because that’s not my experience. And denigrating people who play the game differently than you is uncalled for.

Also, you can be a competent consumer and still preorder. My entire guild plays this game. It would have been very hard for me not to order the expansion just on the basis of that, since I’m running the guild and I have to be able to get to where players are. If more than half the guild buys the expansion (and it our case it was way way more than half that preordered) I have no choice but to buy the expansion.

So if I preorder it, whatever I get it gravy.

People who talk in absolutes are pretty easy to refute.

They learned that making expansions is not as profitable as they believed, that E-Sports and Raids aren’t so easy to sell as they were hoping, and that the in game vending is were they should maintain focus for pure income purposes.

NCSOFT will try to force Anet accordingly. If they succeed, the next expac will be HUGE in the Gemstore, small in everything else.

misterman.1530:

I didn’t preorder HoT and sure as heck won’t preorder their next expansion. I waited until I read about the mess, weighed my options, and finally after a couple of balancing patches, coughed up the $$. Would do the same with another expansion.

This can be seen as sensible thinking.

misterman.1530:

Let’s face it, people who preorder are not competent consumers.

The only way you can convince me to preorder would be to offer something of immense value (permanent bank slot, legendary weapon, legendary armor set) not something cosmetic (My Little Pony backpack with sparkly fairy lights that have a constant glow affect). I don’t play a game to look pretty as I’m not a 10 year old girl.

This however…. I dunno what you think this statement proves, but I know what it tells me about you.

I’m almost 35 and I like sparkly things. Everyone pre-orders for a reason, and most of the time, it’s for some sort of dangled carrot.

In the case of HoT, there was no “My Little Pony backpack with sparkly fairy lights that have a constant glow effect” offered for pre-ordering.

It was the half-price gems that did it for me. And I liked getting a discount on gems that I would end up buying anyway. Does that make me an incompetent consumer, saving money by pre-ordering?

misterman.1530:

The only way you can convince me to preorder would be to offer something of immense value

Within a month of pre-purchasing going live, HoT was already on sale for $34. If you factor the free $10 slot, that was one of the better deals to this day. Months later, a few weeks after launch, it was down to $25 if you wanted to go with the boxed edition. Now it can be commonly found for around $38. (official retailers only)

penelopehannibal.8947:

misterman.1530:

I didn’t preorder HoT and sure as heck won’t preorder their next expansion. I waited until I read about the mess, weighed my options, and finally after a couple of balancing patches, coughed up the $$. Would do the same with another expansion.

This can be seen as sensible thinking.

misterman.1530:

Let’s face it, people who preorder are not competent consumers.

The only way you can convince me to preorder would be to offer something of immense value (permanent bank slot, legendary weapon, legendary armor set) not something cosmetic (My Little Pony backpack with sparkly fairy lights that have a constant glow affect). I don’t play a game to look pretty as I’m not a 10 year old girl.

This however…. I dunno what you think this statement proves, but I know what it tells me about you.

I’m almost 35 and I like sparkly things. Everyone pre-orders for a reason, and most of the time, it’s for some sort of dangled carrot.

In the case of HoT, there was no “My Little Pony backpack with sparkly fairy lights that have a constant glow effect” offered for pre-ordering.

It was the half-price gems that did it for me. And I liked getting a discount on gems that I would end up buying anyway. Does that make me an incompetent consumer, saving money by pre-ordering?

I preordered for the half price gems also. There was the additional character slot that they added to the other two types that saved people $10 if they preordered. If you know you’re going to be playing the expansion anyway then might as well prebuy and get the discounts.

I like sparkly also in spite of being an adult. I would bet most people running around in this game with sparkle effects of some sort are adults.

What is a competent consumer?

Ardid.7203:

What is a competent consumer?

Someone who spends money the same way you do.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

As usuall I do beleave in Anet that they will do good, now it is up to the players and not keep the grudge from HoT.

I don’t know about keeping a grudge but if a company takes my money then doesn’t give me what I paid for then I’m most definitely going to remember that the next time they ask for my money. I’ll consider any promised advertisements for things that will be added later as “vaporpromises” and not to be relied on.

Exactly this.

I wasn’t donating to a charity when I purchased the expansion. There was an expectation of receiving the product that was advertised in return. I’m not funding their company out of the kindness of my little black heart, I’ve got grabby hands out over here.

Siobhan.5273:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

As usuall I do beleave in Anet that they will do good, now it is up to the players and not keep the grudge from HoT.

I don’t know about keeping a grudge but if a company takes my money then doesn’t give me what I paid for then I’m most definitely going to remember that the next time they ask for my money. I’ll consider any promised advertisements for things that will be added later as “vaporpromises” and not to be relied on.

Sometimes you don’t get exactly what was advertised, but you get more than you expected from some things and less from other things. An MMO is NOT like other products. It’s more like an amusement park. They plan to build a ride. They advertise the ride. The ride proves unsafe so they close it down. That’s what happens sometimes.

In the case of legendary weapons we got 25% of what was advertised and then they decided it wasn’t work and they changed it. But also got stuff they told use they wouldn’t do, like gliding in central Tyria. I’m far more happy with that than I would have been with legendary weapons.

MMOs are products that are always changing. Sometimes you like the changes and sometimes you don’t.

But unless new legendaries were important to you personally, I don’t really see the issue. We’re getting some stuff and not getting other stuff.

The changes to WvW seem to be well received, for example. The PvP changes seem to be all in (though I’m sure most stuff is coming). Living Story Season 3 is coming after the third raid and the raids have been coming out relatively regularly.

The entire game was just overhauled to make it easier to spend less time to get rewards and to get greater rewards and to make it less grindy, that’s all time and effort.

If you like the changes, then there’s no reason to say well but you didn’t deliver X… unless X was what you were particularly looking for.

The fractal changes look good, dungeon rewards are back.

Sure, we didn’t get legendary weapons but that’s not the whole game to everyone. In any MMO sometimes you like the changes and sometimes you don’t. And no change is going to be guaranteed, because it’s an MMO.

Like the desert borderlands. Players in WvW mostly seemed not to like it, so they rotated it out earlier than they were going to. It was delivered and if you paid for that feature and you liked it, now you’d be unhappy.

That’s how MMOs work.

Exactly this.

I wasn’t donating to a charity when I purchased the expansion. There was an expectation of receiving the product that was advertised in return. I’m not funding their company out of the kindness of my little black heart, I’ve got grabby hands out over here.

There a slight difference between a ride being closed because it’s a public hazard and a product not being delivered because they over promised when they charged you for it.

One is a closure required by law. The other is making promises and taking money for those promises and then unilaterally not delivering on the promise and not offering a refund either.

Edit: I wonder if this happens very often in other businesses, such as writing books

“Yeah I took your money to write a book. I only got 25% through then I decided I would be better off, business wise, to stop and do something else. No, you don’t get a refund. However you can have these other things you didn’t ask for or say you wanted.”

I’ll give this a whirl next time I take money for future promises, I’m sure it will work.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t personally find the expansion lackluster and I know I’m not alone in this.

That’s your opinion and you’re not wrong for having it, but enough people felt it was lackluster to prompt ArenaNet to make sweeping changes post-launch.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

There a slight difference between a ride being closed because it’s a public hazard and a product not being delivered because they over promised when they charged you for it.

One is a closure required by law. The other is making promises and taking money for those promises and then unilaterally not delivering on the promise and not offering a refund either.

In software development, and especially in game software development, there are always hitches and complications that the programmers can’t predict which drastically change/halt their development from their original intentions. It doesn’t matter how awesome, trusted, or competent the company is, it still happens. This is why I adopted my policy of not buying games/software until the code is done… it’s a lesson I’ve had to learn multiple times until it stuck.

Yeah companies shouldn’t promise what they don’t 100% know for sure they can deliver. Yeah the customer shouldn’t have to pay for these occurrences. But, it’s the current reality that the programmers can’t predict the walls they run into.

I think I want to coin the phrase, “Molyneux Syndrome” as something all game companies seem to suffer to some varying degree.

~EW

edit: this is also why I’m in full support of ANet’s new(ish) policy of, “we’re not telling you what’s coming until it ships”… I take it as an admission of the Molyneux Syndrome.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

There a slight difference between a ride being closed because it’s a public hazard and a product not being delivered because they over promised when they charged you for it.

One is a closure required by law. The other is making promises and taking money for those promises and then unilaterally not delivering on the promise and not offering a refund either.

In software development, and especially in game software development, there are always hitches and complications that the programmers can’t predict which drastically change their intentions. It doesn’t matter how awesome, trusted, or competent the company is, it still happens. This is why I adopted my policy of not buying games/software until the code is done… it’s a lesson I’ve had to learn multiple times until it stuck.

Yeah companies shouldn’t promise what they don’t 100% know for sure they can deliver. Yeah the customer shouldn’t have to pay for these occurrences. But, it’s the current reality that the programmers can’t predict the walls they run into.

I think I want to coin the phrase, “Molyneux Syndrome” as something all game companies seem to suffer to some varying degree.

~EW

If companies know that hitches or walls can unexpectedly block progress then they should either not take money on promises or they should have a refund policy already in place if they do take money and then can’t deliver. Both of these are only common sense and it seems to be what ANet has also failed to have.

Actually though, from what Mo said, it sounded not like there was a hitch or wall in production, but an over promise in how much they could do in X amount of time. I’m actually more sympathetic to an unexpected design wall than I am to a promise followed by “Whoops. I guess we don’t know how to allocate resources after all. We’ve got to pull those Devs and put them on something else. My bad. Sux to be you if you paid for it and now you’re not getting it. Oh, well. Someone else will be happy with this other content paid for with your money.”

To further expand on what Jafw said, I’m also not going to pat them on the head for “returning” dungeons rewards or doing something about adjusting the silly grinds they added to their expansion areas. They were losing money on it. They didn’t adjust those things for my benefit, I’d gone through the grind already as I’d been bored to tears with no new content, they did it to benefit their revenue. Same with the PvP crowd. I don’t PvP, but I really feel for those that do, they were hanging on by a thread and they deserved some attention. They did it to retain players.

As far as LS3, well.. the expansion came out in October… things are getting stale… this drought just drags.

I’ve said it many times, I opened the legendary line in my masteries for a reason. I’ve posted on the issue of the hype sold with this expansion before. I’ve mostly 3 manned, 4 at the most- (my guild is a lowly 4 of us that “regularly” play) the fractals up to level 32 and worked quite hard to do what I needed to do get those mastery lines unlocked so that when something came up I liked, (or my husband liked or my son liked), we could make it. We all have worked at these lines. Would it be a journey? Yes, but hey, that was alright, as intended! It is supposed to be something worked for- a goal to keep you going! It is quite disappointing that all that effort seemingly was discounted after being told the expansion was based on things like:

“respecting the players time” and “not invalidating their hard work"

See if people fall for that hype again if they don’t finish delivering.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If companies know that hitches or walls can unexpectedly block progress then they should either not take money on promises or they should have a refund policy already in place if they do take money and then can’t deliver. Both of these are only common sense and it seems to be what ANet has also failed to have.

Actually though, from what Mo said, it sounded not like there was a hitch or wall in production, but an over promise in how much they could do in X amount of time. I’m actually more sympathetic to an unexpected design wall than I am to a promise followed by “Whoops. I guess we don’t know how to allocate resources after all. We’ve got to pull those Devs and put them on something else. My bad. Sux to be you if you paid for it and now you’re now getting it. Oh, well. Someone else will be happy with this other content paid for with your money.”

This can kind of happen to any company of any given field. Once.

If it happens more than once, however, then that says something about the company. And I hope ArenaNet will realise that for the next time, and over-deliver and under-promise, rather than the other way round.

I can’t see them surviving too well a second time of this ‘whoops’ – even with addicts like me still buying the game.

That said, I wasn’t in it for the Legendary Weapons. I was in it for the story more than anything.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If companies know that hitches or walls can unexpectedly block progress then they should either not take money on promises or they should have a refund policy already in place if they do take money and then can’t deliver. Both of these are only common sense and it seems to be what ANet has also failed to have.

All game companies, not just ANet. Many companies outside of games/software also fall into this category. I agree with all your ‘shoulds,’ and I’d love for those ‘shoulds’ to happen, but currently they don’t and I make my decision to buy software based on the reality I see sitting before me. The company says what it wants, the programmers tell the company what it thinks it can do, the company makes its advertising and budgeting decisions based in-part on what their told… and any company worth their salt budgets for some level of development problem. They just can’t predict everything.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Actually though, from what Mo said, it sounded not like there was a hitch or wall in production, but an over promise in how much they could do in X amount of time. I’m actually more sympathetic to an unexpected design wall than I am to a promise followed by “Whoops. I guess we don’t know how to allocate resources after all. We’ve got to pull those Devs and put them on something else. My bad. Sux to be you if you paid for it and not you’re now getting it. Oh, well. Someone else will be happy with this other content paid for with your money.”

I think they’re synonymous. I think the speed of production is just one possible wall/hitch of many that can occur; it’s a “less severe” version of being unable to write a functioning code.

~EW

penelopehannibal.8947:

I can’t see them surviving too well a second time of this ‘whoops’ – even with addicts like me still buying the game.

Perhaps, but some companies had/have. Lionhead Studios (over-promised features in the Fable series – hence ‘Molyneux Syndrome’), and Blizzard (grossly missed production deadlines) come to mind as examples.

~EW

Just a flesh wound.3589:

There a slight difference between a ride being closed because it’s a public hazard and a product not being delivered because they over promised when they charged you for it.

One is a closure required by law. The other is making promises and taking money for those promises and then unilaterally not delivering on the promise and not offering a refund either.

Edit: I wonder if this happens very often in other businesses, such as writing books

“Yeah I took your money to write a book. I only got 25% through then I decided I would be better off, business wise, to stop and do something else. No, you don’t get a refund. However you can have these other things you didn’t ask for or say you wanted.”

I’ll give this a whirl next time I take money for future promises, I’m sure it will work.

The point is, unexpected things happen PERIOD. And with an MMO, features ARE subject to change, for a variety of reasons.

This has always been true for all MMOs. Anet was going to provide legendary weapons over time. They also said they wouldn’t be able to bring gliding to central Tyria.

They took away something, but they also provided something. Because the thing they provided (that they said they couldn’t) is more valuable to me personally than what they took away, I feel like I got more than my money’s worth. whether or not they delivered on line items.

I understand when I’m buying an MMO all I’m really buying is access to the new content.

Do I want to eventually see all the new legendaries in the game. Sure I do.

But the way they were being designed was obviously not working.

Take the short bow. They did a great job on the short bow adding in all sorts of content. It was like it’s own mini quest series. It was great.

But if very very few people avail themselves of that content, it’s not worth spending the time and energy to produce more of it, and that’s the problem.

So Anet made a decision based on the amount of work/time creation of those new legendaries took compared with the over all health of the game. Did they say they were going to give us something they didn’t give us? Absolutely.

Would I want them to continue that if it didn’t work for the game over all?

Absolutely no. They should have simply not guaranteed all the legendaries. But then we’re back to square one. Anet never announcing anything until it’s ready.

That’s a bad trade off to me.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If companies know that hitches or walls can unexpectedly block progress then they should either not take money on promises or they should have a refund policy already in place if they do take money and then can’t deliver. Both of these are only common sense and it seems to be what ANet has also failed to have.

All game companies, not just ANet. Many companies outside of games/software also fall into this category. I agree with all your ‘shoulds,’ and I’d love for those ‘shoulds’ to happen, but currently they don’t and I make my decision to buy software based on the reality I see sitting before me. The company says what it wants, the programmers tell the company what it thinks it can do, the company makes its advertising and budgeting decisions based in-part on what their told… and any company worth their salt budgets for some level of development problem. They just can’t predict everything.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Actually though, from what Mo said, it sounded not like there was a hitch or wall in production, but an over promise in how much they could do in X amount of time. I’m actually more sympathetic to an unexpected design wall than I am to a promise followed by “Whoops. I guess we don’t know how to allocate resources after all. We’ve got to pull those Devs and put them on something else. My bad. Sux to be you if you paid for it and not you’re now getting it. Oh, well. Someone else will be happy with this other content paid for with your money.”

I think they’re synonymous. I think the speed of production is just one possible wall/hitch of many that can occur; it’s a “less severe” version of being unable to write a functioning code.

~EW

The reason software companies can do this sort of thing and not be legally liable is because not only are they given a free pass by some of their customers, who for some obscure reason don’t hold them to the same business practices that they hold other people or businesses to, and because the laws haven’t yet been written to cover breach of promises in games that have a world wide player base. However if this happens often enough, then these companies may find themselves unpleasantly surprised one day with laws that restrict what they can say and do, just like the laws that are what a brick and mortar store has to follow.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

The reason software companies can do this sort of thing and not be legally liable is because not only are they given a free pass by some of their customers, who for some obscure reason don’t hold them to the same business practices that they hold other people or businesses to, and because the laws haven’t yet been written to cover breach of promises in games that have a world wide player base. However if this happens often enough, then these companies may find themselves unpleasantly surprised one day with laws that restrict what they can say and do, just like the laws that are what a brick and mortar store has to follow.

Then join me brutha in cynicism and wallet-voting. Let pre-order bonuses, unwritten code, early access, and all other such things collect digital dust!

~EW

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

The reason software companies can do this sort of thing and not be legally liable is because not only are they given a free pass by some of their customers, who for some obscure reason don’t hold them to the same business practices that they hold other people or businesses to, and because the laws haven’t yet been written to cover breach of promises in games that have a world wide player base. However if this happens often enough, then these companies may find themselves unpleasantly surprised one day with laws that restrict what they can say and do, just like the laws that are what a brick and mortar store has to follow.

Then join me brutha in cynicism and wallet-voting. Let pre-order bonuses, unwritten code, early access, and all other such things collect digital dust!

~EW

Yeah. I preordered fast enough last time. I suspended my monthly gem purchases with real money for 3 months because of this to get my money back.

I stopped playing the maps in HoT because of the grind required to unlock the specializations, which made me reduce the amount of alts I play.

I also struggle a lot with maps that use a lot of vertical space, so I still haven’t figured out how to fully explore the tangled depths.

This has been happening with software and software companies from the first day there was software for the masses. Years and years and years of this happening. Every software company has this happen. Are you going to stop having anything to do with computers and software?

PyrateSilly.4710:

This has been happening with software and software companies from the first day there was software for the masses. Years and years and years of this happening. Every software company has this happen. Are you going to stop having anything to do with computers and software?

Did someone say that here? I must have missed it if they did. What I saw was people saying they wouldn’t be as fast to give ANet their money. Which is a reasonable response when a company fails to meet someone’s expectations or to provide paid for content.

Look over again what you wrote and others that are complaining about the software …… complaining about it not being perfect and complete so I asked the question.

PyrateSilly.4710:

This has been happening with software and software companies from the first day there was software for the masses. Years and years and years of this happening. Every software company has this happen. Are you going to stop having anything to do with computers and software?

Lol, don’t be silly PyrateSilly. You don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater; it wastes perfectly good bathwater.

I think you just missed the point where I said “until the code is done.” I’m happy to be a part of the demographic that buys the software/game/expansion/whatever after launch (assuming I like the product of course).

~EW

PyrateSilly.4710:

Look over again what you wrote and others that are complaining about the software …… complaining about it not being perfect and complete so I asked the question.

And I never said what you said there. I suggest you reread what was written if you think that.

Edit: Being unhappy with a company and not spending as much or as often is not the same as stopping anything to do with computers or software.

Hyperbole is not your friend on the forum.

Healix.5819:

misterman.1530:

The only way you can convince me to preorder would be to offer something of immense value

Within a month of pre-purchasing going live, HoT was already on sale for $34. If you factor the free $10 slot, that was one of the better deals to this day. Months later, a bit after launch, it was down to $25 if you wanted to go with the boxed edition. Now it can be commonly found for around $38. (official retailers only)

Exactly. Except for the half-price gems – which I bought once in more than 4 years, simply to get the unlimited harvesting tools – there was no point preordering. Waiting a bit gave me both the balance patches I wanted and a cheaper price.

As for the people who took my “sparkly” comment as an insult, I simply meant I don’t play that way. Don’t care if you do or not. If you do, more power to you. I don’t, for the reasons I gave. If that insults you…shrug.

Look at all the game launch fiascos – the latest Sim City, Diablo 3…hell, anything lately by Ubisoft…all caused by preorder fervor. You don’t have to be first for things. Really. But if you want it, again, that’s fine. I don’t.

No need to get your sparkly panties in a twist (that was a joke)

Just a flesh wound.3589:

PyrateSilly.4710:

This has been happening with software and software companies from the first day there was software for the masses. Years and years and years of this happening. Every software company has this happen. Are you going to stop having anything to do with computers and software?

Did someone say that here? I must have missed it if they did. What I saw was people saying they wouldn’t be as fast to give ANet their money. Which is a reasonable response when a company fails to meet someone’s expectations or to provide paid for content.

You’re absolutely right. If a company fails to meet your expectations, you absolutely should be wary about giving them more money. That’s all well and logical.

The thing is HoT exceeded by expectations. Because they said it would be small, I set my thinking along those lines. Did I expect more legendary weapons? Sure I did. But I didn’t expect to be able to glide everywhere and that, to my mind, increases the value of the product I bought more than legendaries would have. Therefore my expectations were exceeded.

But the real test of whether the product is worth it or not is the Living Story when it comes out. Because at the end of the day, if you want to continue with the game and the story, you have to own the expansion.

At which point, delaying the purchase would have made no difference to me. $100 isn’t going to make or break me whether I spend it now or a year from now.

Vayne.8563:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

PyrateSilly.4710:

This has been happening with software and software companies from the first day there was software for the masses. Years and years and years of this happening. Every software company has this happen. Are you going to stop having anything to do with computers and software?

Did someone say that here? I must have missed it if they did. What I saw was people saying they wouldn’t be as fast to give ANet their money. Which is a reasonable response when a company fails to meet someone’s expectations or to provide paid for content.

You’re absolutely right. If a company fails to meet your expectations, you absolutely should be wary about giving them more money. That’s all well and logical.

The thing is HoT exceeded by expectations. Because they said it would be small, I set my thinking along those lines. Did I expect more legendary weapons? Sure I did. But I didn’t expect to be able to glide everywhere and that, to my mind, increases the value of the product I bought more than legendaries would have. Therefore my expectations were exceeded.

But the real test of whether the product is worth it or not is the Living Story when it comes out. Because at the end of the day, if you want to continue with the game and the story, you have to own the expansion.

At which point, delaying the purchase would have made no difference to me. $100 isn’t going to make or break me whether I spend it now or a year from now.

I actually like HoT and it was about the size I was expecting it to be, so no problems there.

My problem came when they stopped working on what I paid for for an indefinite length of time. That didn’t sit well with me at all. Now if they had said, “put aside for a few months until we get sufficient content in the pipe and then we’ll restart it” that would have been acceptable enough to let slide. Unfortunately they have a history of “indefinite” turning into years, or never, and after seeing things promised as “one day” slide off into black holes, never to be seen or heard from again, I have no trust in them picking up dangling unmet promises unless they feel a financial bite.

misterman.1530:

You don’t have to be first for things. Really. But if you want it, again, that’s fine. I don’t.

Exactly. There is no need to be the first for things, only a want – and as long as there’s a want for something, companies will sell. But it was you who said:

misterman.1530:

Let’s face it, people who preorder are not competent consumers.

Was that a joke too?

Edit: P.S. I didn’t take the 10 year old girl thing as an insult, by the way.

penelopehannibal.8947:

misterman.1530:

You don’t have to be first for things. Really. But if you want it, again, that’s fine. I don’t.

Exactly. There is no need to be the first for things, only a want – and as long as there’s a want for something, companies will sell. But it was you who said:

misterman.1530:

Let’s face it, people who preorder are not competent consumers.

Was that a joke too?

Edit: P.S. I didn’t take the 10 year old girl thing as an insult, by the way.

Actually, “people who preorder are not competent consumers” is, unfortunately, an economic reality. It benefits the publisher, the game stores (for physical copies, ‘natch) but rarely really benefits the consumer. There are quite a few articles on the subject. Now, HoT, to be honest, wasn’t that bad a deal, preorder-wise. I am gun shy after being burnt from other preorders, however. And steer clear.

Getting something that is substantial, within the game, makes more sense for me if I were to even consider preordering.

Note: if they come up with half-price gems and the Permanent bank access comes back, I would be sorely tempted.

misterman.1530:

Actually, “people who preorder are not competent consumers” is, unfortunately, an economic reality.

I’m afraid it’s not.

People will buy what they want to buy. There’s nothing incompetent about purchasing stuff. Someone buying something and it doesn’t quite work out to what they wanted isn’t something exclusive to pre-orders.

I can buy an O’Chicken Burger from a new restaurant called O’Donnel’s for instance. If it ends up not being what I expected, that’s not my fault as a consumer. It’s not me who was incompetent for purchasing something that looked like it would appeal to me.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

The reason software companies can do this sort of thing and not be legally liable is because not only are they given a free pass by some of their customers, who for some obscure reason don’t hold them to the same business practices that they hold other people or businesses to, and because the laws haven’t yet been written to cover breach of promises in games that have a world wide player base. However if this happens often enough, then these companies may find themselves unpleasantly surprised one day with laws that restrict what they can say and do, just like the laws that are what a brick and mortar store has to follow.

The real reason why they can ‘get away’ with it, is because they have not set a time frame by which they need to deliver the product. If you are upset you have not got them, that is on you to be upset, they don’t have a dead line to get them out, if it takes them 12 years to put out the remaining 12 weapons, then that is what it takes, and they are still making good on their promise.

Case in point:

Mike O’Brian On Legendary Weapons

Last year we talked about plans to gradually build out a second set of legendary weapons through live content updates. That’s a big responsibility. We have a team of six developers working on that, who could work on it for years to come.

They never expected to have these weapons out anytime soon, they were projecting this to be a several year project. Just because it’s been put on hold for the interim, does not mean that won’t provide what they said they would, it just means, they have no time frame by which peruse it. But they have made it clear that they plan at some point to return to it.

So any sense of not getting what you paid for, is your own fault for setting an imaginary dead line for when you were expecting to get it, when they had no such obligation.

STIHL.2489:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

The reason software companies can do this sort of thing and not be legally liable is because not only are they given a free pass by some of their customers, who for some obscure reason don’t hold them to the same business practices that they hold other people or businesses to, and because the laws haven’t yet been written to cover breach of promises in games that have a world wide player base. However if this happens often enough, then these companies may find themselves unpleasantly surprised one day with laws that restrict what they can say and do, just like the laws that are what a brick and mortar store has to follow.

The real reason why they can ‘get away’ with it, is because they have not set a time frame by which they need to deliver the product. If you are upset you have not got them, that is on you to be upset, they don’t have a dead line to get them out, if it takes them 12 years to put out the remaining 12 weapons, then that is what it takes, and they are still making good on their promise.

Case in point:

Mike O’Brian On Legendary Weapons

Last year we talked about plans to gradually build out a second set of legendary weapons through live content updates. That’s a big responsibility. We have a team of six developers working on that, who could work on it for years to come.

They never expected to have these weapons out anytime soon, they were projecting this to be a several year project. Just because it’s been put on hold for the interim, does not mean that won’t provide what they said they would, it just means, they have no time frame by which peruse it. But they have made it clear that they plan at some point to return to it.

So any sense of not getting what you paid for, is your own fault for setting an imaginary dead line for when you were expecting to get it, when they had no such obligation.

And I’m so jealous.

If only I could do that. Have a business where I advertise new collections for new products, set no time to do this but take the money. Halt production when I decided it’s good for me and set no restart time and then have random people get on the company forum to fervently tell my upset customers it’s their fault for believing in me.

I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere not to have done this all my life.

You’re completely right though. I admit it.

It’s my fault for expecting a timely follow through for promises made and not for it to be halted because it’s good for them and to be (hopefully) restarted at some unknown point in the future.

STIHL.2489:

Case in point:

Mike O’Brian On Legendary Weapons

Last year we talked about plans to gradually build out a second set of legendary weapons through live content updates. That’s a big responsibility. We have a team of six developers working on that, who could work on it for years to come.

Of course that quote was made in March 2016 well after HoT went live and was sold to customers. I noticed you underlined the part where MO said it could be years. I don’t recall Anet ever stating such a thing when HoT went on sale. It would be one thing if they had stated the new legendarys would take years to develop up front but they didn’t. This was only stated a few months ago when they decided to shelf them.

Here is what Anet stated about new legendary in October 2015 before HoT launched.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hot-new-legendary-weapons/

It takes a lot of work to craft these legendary journeys for release, so rather than take the time to develop the full set before releasing any of them, we will be releasing new legendary weapons in small groups at regular intervals until the full set of sixteen has been added to the game

I don’t know about most people but I don’t consider canceling the new legendarys until some date that is still to be determined or may never happen at all a regular interval. Unless of course by regular interval Anet meant something like 1 legendary a year.

penelopehannibal.8947:

misterman.1530:

Actually, “people who preorder are not competent consumers” is, unfortunately, an economic reality.

I’m afraid it’s not.

People will buy what they want to buy. There’s nothing incompetent about purchasing stuff. Someone buying something and it doesn’t quite work out to what they wanted isn’t something exclusive to pre-orders.

I can buy an O’Chicken Burger from a new restaurant called O’Donnel’s for instance. If it ends up not being what I expected, that’s not my fault as a consumer. It’s not me who was incompetent for purchasing something that looked like it would appeal to me.

It’s not buying the burger that makes you an incompetent consumer. Its the part where you pay for that burger, in full, a year or more in advance. The part where you rationalize how this type of consumer behavior is logical is the real icing on the cake here though.

Carry on though; Anet needs people like you.

Real talk here though – the last expac and the savage content drought both before and following it’s release have done irreparable damage to the population.

At this point we can be certain of a few things for the next expac:
- power creep injection at the level of pay to win
- grind and roadblocking the ‘fun stuff’ slows down player consumption and hides the lack of content (i.e. lack of ‘fun stuff’)
– story is hard/expensive and typically single pass content; expect nothing and you might not be disappointed in this department
- the ‘every day of march’ sales were a success, so wait for ‘every 12hrs of December’ sales

The other factor that ANet can’t control is that now there are other game options out or coming out. MMO players are fickle at best, and there’s certainly no point playing a game that you don’t feel like you are having fun in.

Also, does anyone else feel like they’ve got Stockholm Syndrome? It’s amazing how excited players are to have the expac content they paid for reverted back to find fun in the game again. ggwp Anet.

misterman.1530:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

As usuall I do beleave in Anet that they will do good, now it is up to the players and not keep the grudge from HoT.

I don’t know about keeping a grudge but if a company takes my money then doesn’t give me what I paid for then I’m most definitely going to remember that the next time they ask for my money. I’ll consider any promised advertisements for things that will be added later as “vaporpromises” and not to be relied on.

Well I can understand that and I where one who felt cheated like that I would not buy atleast a pre -order, I would rather wait. That’s different to what I meant. I meant I hope people are so angry that they will not even consider looking at Anets titles anymore.

I didn’t preorder HoT and sure as heck won’t preorder their next expansion. I waited until I read about the mess, weighed my options, and finally after a couple of balancing patches, coughed up the $$. Would do the same with another expansion.

Let’s face it, people who preorder are not competent consumers.

The only way you can convince me to preorder would be to offer something of immense value (permanent bank slot, legendary weapon, legendary armor set) not something cosmetic (My Little Pony backpack with sparkly fairy lights that have a constant glow affect). I don’t play a game to look pretty as I’m not a 10 year old girl.

I wouldn’t say they weren’t competent. GW add on campaigns and expansion were relatively well received. The “free” character slot and “half price” gems only available on the pre-order were suitable carrots to those who already own the game to pre-purchase it.

E-sports was a means of advertising, nothing more, and along with the P4F release was a way to bring in more players to the game with the hopes some number of them would buy HoT. Last quarter’s conference call stated that was where the game income fell short, the conversion rate of P4F to paid player. Now whether you take that as they were satisfy with the active paid player upgrade rate is up to you.

misterman.1530:

Let’s face it, people who preorder are not competent consumers.

Possibly not responsible consumers, but not competent is inaccurate.

Naix.8156:

It’s not buying the burger that makes you an incompetent consumer. Its the part where you pay for that burger, in full, a year or more in advance. The part where you rationalize how this type of consumer behavior is logical is the real icing on the cake here though.

Carry on though; Anet needs people like you.

Burgers is not a good analogy. No one pays for a burger more than a few minutes in advance. I know you didn’t start it, but you didn’t derail it either.

Prepayment for a game is a statement of faith in the company. That belief can be unfounded, although there’s usually some element of developer reputation behind it. It can be founded on past performance. Usually, players can cite the reasons why they believe in the company/developer. It’s when they can’t that the behavior becomes illogical. For such consumer behavior to be irresponsible, prepayment would have to not be a standard in the industry, or the reasons for the belief would have to be unfounded.

I prepaid for GW2. At the time I did so, the original product had provided great value for money and the information available on GW2 had a lot that looked good to me. I have a hard time seeing that as irresponsible consumer behavior. No, take your word for it won’t do.

When it came to HoT, the equation looked different. Gw2 had also provided outstanding value for money. However, updates since launch made the game worse for me, and the info on HoT looked like more of that rather than more of what the base game offers. I did not prepay for HoT, and only purchased it from a 3rd party a couple of months after release at a much lower price.

STIHL.2489:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

The reason software companies can do this sort of thing and not be legally liable is because not only are they given a free pass by some of their customers, who for some obscure reason don’t hold them to the same business practices that they hold other people or businesses to, and because the laws haven’t yet been written to cover breach of promises in games that have a world wide player base. However if this happens often enough, then these companies may find themselves unpleasantly surprised one day with laws that restrict what they can say and do, just like the laws that are what a brick and mortar store has to follow.

The real reason why they can ‘get away’ with it, is because they have not set a time frame by which they need to deliver the product. If you are upset you have not got them, that is on you to be upset, they don’t have a dead line to get them out, if it takes them 12 years to put out the remaining 12 weapons, then that is what it takes, and they are still making good on their promise.

Case in point:

Mike O’Brian On Legendary Weapons

Last year we talked about plans to gradually build out a second set of legendary weapons through live content updates. That’s a big responsibility. We have a team of six developers working on that, who could work on it for years to come.

They never expected to have these weapons out anytime soon, they were projecting this to be a several year project. Just because it’s been put on hold for the interim, does not mean that won’t provide what they said they would, it just means, they have no time frame by which peruse it. But they have made it clear that they plan at some point to return to it.

So any sense of not getting what you paid for, is your own fault for setting an imaginary dead line for when you were expecting to get it, when they had no such obligation.

That quote does not establish that their original intention was for the legendaries to be a several year project, only that the current (as of the time of the statement) reality was that they could be a multi-year project. It might also be worth noting that they did in fact establish a timeline. By stating that the legendaries would be released at regular intervals, and then establishing the interval initially, they created a timeline.

All of that said, plans do change. I understand that. Had they offered refunds to those who were influenced to buy HoT by the prospect of the new legendaries, without requiring that said refund seekers give up their core account in the process, I would be more inclined to consider this to be a matter of little consequence. Instead this demonstrates, in my opinion, that the company is willing to take money for an advertised product and then not deliver the product (in its entirety) not because they cant due to unavoidable circumstances, but because they choose to allocate their development resources elsewhere instead.

This does not mean that I will not buy their products in the future as I judge individual products on their own merit (in general) but it does reinforce the inclination to not give Anet money in advance. I just bought HoT yesterday. I will likely wait a similar amount of time before buying the next expansion.

JustTrogdor.7892:

STIHL.2489:

Case in point:

Mike O’Brian On Legendary Weapons

Last year we talked about plans to gradually build out a second set of legendary weapons through live content updates. That’s a big responsibility. We have a team of six developers working on that, who could work on it for years to come.

Of course that quote was made in March 2016 well after HoT went live and was sold to customers. I noticed you underlined the part where MO said it could be years. I don’t recall Anet ever stating such a thing when HoT went on sale. It would be one thing if they had stated the new legendarys would take years to develop up front but they didn’t. This was only stated a few months ago when they decided to shelf them.

Here is what Anet stated about new legendary in October 2015 before HoT launched.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hot-new-legendary-weapons/

It takes a lot of work to craft these legendary journeys for release, so rather than take the time to develop the full set before releasing any of them, we will be releasing new legendary weapons in small groups at regular intervals until the full set of sixteen has been added to the game

I don’t know about most people but I don’t consider canceling the new legendarys until some date that is still to be determined or may never happen at all a regular interval. Unless of course by regular interval Anet meant something like 1 legendary a year.

We’re going a tad off track here since I highly doubt the Legendary Weapon change significantly impacted GW2’s income for this quarter considering when it was announced with a week left in that quarter.

And from what I transcribed from the conference call, the only “lesson” that NCSOFT learned is highly debatable since they never said what that lesson was. Just that it was a lesson learned.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/NCsoft-s-Earnings-Report-1Q16/6157375

Just a flesh wound.3589:

STIHL.2489:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

The reason software companies can do this sort of thing and not be legally liable is because not only are they given a free pass by some of their customers, who for some obscure reason don’t hold them to the same business practices that they hold other people or businesses to, and because the laws haven’t yet been written to cover breach of promises in games that have a world wide player base. However if this happens often enough, then these companies may find themselves unpleasantly surprised one day with laws that restrict what they can say and do, just like the laws that are what a brick and mortar store has to follow.

The real reason why they can ‘get away’ with it, is because they have not set a time frame by which they need to deliver the product. If you are upset you have not got them, that is on you to be upset, they don’t have a dead line to get them out, if it takes them 12 years to put out the remaining 12 weapons, then that is what it takes, and they are still making good on their promise.

Case in point:

Mike O’Brian On Legendary Weapons

Last year we talked about plans to gradually build out a second set of legendary weapons through live content updates. That’s a big responsibility. We have a team of six developers working on that, who could work on it for years to come.

They never expected to have these weapons out anytime soon, they were projecting this to be a several year project. Just because it’s been put on hold for the interim, does not mean that won’t provide what they said they would, it just means, they have no time frame by which peruse it. But they have made it clear that they plan at some point to return to it.

So any sense of not getting what you paid for, is your own fault for setting an imaginary dead line for when you were expecting to get it, when they had no such obligation.

And I’m so jealous.

If only I could do that. Have a business where I advertise new collections for new products, set no time to do this but take the money. Halt production when I decided it’s good for me and set no restart time and then have random people get on the company forum to fervently tell my upset customers it’s their fault for believing in me.

I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere not to have done this all my life.

You’re completely right though. I admit it.

It’s my fault for expecting a timely follow through for promises made and not for it to be halted because it’s good for them and to be (hopefully) restarted at some unknown point in the future.

It’s a trip I’ll give you that, the first part is the hardest where you spend years catering to your clients to build up a strong enough sense of loyalty that people will just trust you to provide the product and thus buy something from you on your reputation alone.

Which is what a Pre-Order really is, you’re not buying an Expansion, you’re buying into their reputation to provide you something you will enjoy. Which they did. In that front they paid their end, and they said “In the future we will put out more stuff”

lets say you run a company or a business, so you have to deal with important executive decisions and this need to work on priorities. You tell your employees that you will take care of changing the color for the bathroom tissue to a brighter shade of white, because it’s what they want, but it’s very low on the importance scale, in fact, metrics show that less then 2% of the employees in the entire company even care about this change, so while there are a few, it’s a very small number, as such, a lot of other, more import things, like ensuring there is enough soap to wash your hands with, which 92% of the employees care about, gets pushed ahead of it, then things happen and time passes, and you need to get back to that, because you know, it needs to get done at some point, but it’s still not important, in fact, now, there is a plan to re-do the entire lay out of the bathroom, so, you’re going to have to put all your focus on that, Does this mean you were lying that you would take care of the color of the bathroom paper, or does this mean that other things have simply taken precedence over that one thing?

Same thing happen with things like Legendary Items, there is a good chance that the metrics showed that only a very small percent where even bothering to do them, so they were not considered as important as other game features, like the Living Story, which they expect a much larger population to get involved in. So, while they have not forgotten about those 12 Legendary Weapons, and they will get back to them, but right now, they have other, more important things to work on.

JustTrogdor.7892:

STIHL.2489:

Case in point:

Mike O’Brian On Legendary Weapons

Last year we talked about plans to gradually build out a second set of legendary weapons through live content updates. That’s a big responsibility. We have a team of six developers working on that, who could work on it for years to come.

Of course that quote was made in March 2016 well after HoT went live and was sold to customers. I noticed you underlined the part where MO said it could be years. I don’t recall Anet ever stating such a thing when HoT went on sale. It would be one thing if they had stated the new legendarys would take years to develop up front but they didn’t. This was only stated a few months ago when they decided to shelf them.

Here is what Anet stated about new legendary in October 2015 before HoT launched.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hot-new-legendary-weapons/

It takes a lot of work to craft these legendary journeys for release, so rather than take the time to develop the full set before releasing any of them, we will be releasing new legendary weapons in small groups at regular intervals until the full set of sixteen has been added to the game

I don’t know about most people but I don’t consider canceling the new legendarys until some date that is still to be determined or may never happen at all a regular interval. Unless of course by regular interval Anet meant something like 1 legendary a year.

I still get the vibe that they expected that whole process to drag out for a while, even if they did not re-direct to LS3, HoT has barely been out for 7 months, (Oct 23, 2015) they have put out 4 Legendary Weapons so far, I would have expected at best, since they were shooting for 16, dropped 3 at launch, so 13 remaining, and then another roughly 5 months later, (March 25, 2016), thus 12 remaining, (before they re-directed the team), but by this progress bar, we can see that, at best they were striving for between 2 – 4 annually, and maybe plan to wrap them over the course of the next 3 – 4 years. Which allows them to feel out the player population and adjust things accordingly.