Guild Wars 2

NPE 2014- never forget.

bring out THE drrruuuuummmmss trait update 2014 and it’s TOUCHDOWNNNNN wooooyaaaaaaa.

Ashendale.2165:

[sip]

Well, at first I was going to quote some parts of your post but after reading it all… I can’t agree more and say that you just put my exact feelings too. I would give +10 to your post if I could… As I said before, they think that “streamlining” means “dumbing down” and hand holding" -_-

Probably going to get silenced again, as anet hates it when you speak out against them. but allow me to link something from another thread. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Changes-Coming-to-the-NPE/first
Three months ago the NPE was promised some changes, yes some have been committed but the reality of it is this system makes the game generic, nothing about gw2 is very special anymore aside WvW. which personaly even that is old with the repetitive maps and PPT system we have. I propose Anet removes the NPE and instead focuses on adding content instead of this nonsense system that removed the fun that the game originaly was intended to provide, don’t fix things that don’t need to be fixed. seriously, its been long enough and people have infact stated they didnt like alot of the changes anet has made.

“I propose I’m right and you’re wrong so there, deal with it.”

You’re gonna have to do a little better than that. People have also stated they love the changes, and want to see more like it, so where is your argument exactly?

The NPE doesn’t make the game generic. Saying it does shows a lack of understanding of the word.

All it changes is the speed at which things are acquired, and some of it only the first time you level a character.

The rest of it doesn’t change the game. All the same stuff is still in place. There’s nothing generic about it.

If you want to complain it’s limiting go right ahead. By saying it makes the game generic is just plain wrong.

I guess that I just do not agree with the OP. My own opinion (and it only just my opinion) is that the NPE is okay (and yes, I am a veteran player with multiple 80s that leveled a couple of new toons with the new system). For me, it did not make a huge difference in play experience. I am not really sure what the “generic” issue is. I don’t find anything really generic about the game…either before or after NPE was introduced.

A lot of people feel that by gating things, Anet has made the game more like other MMOs. What they’re ignoring is that many of the things that are gated were already gated anyway and just the level changed, so if it wasn’t generic before it’s not generic now.

well not like anybody is going to care bout what my opinion on the NPE is.. but here i go..

The NPE is one of the most foul and wretched things i ever experienced in a game… ESPECIALLY cause i did start my very first char about 1 year ago. I leveled the “classic” way, got my point to spend on each level and if i wanted to change my build i needed to pay a fee to reset it. Alone to be able reset my build was new to me.. cause the last mmo like game i really nerded into was diablo II. Basically if you done goofd with your build over there you got 2 choices… either deal with it or start over but back to the theme. Each level i got a trait point that i freely could assign wherever i please. Basically my char (a charr engineer that i still run as my main) got stronger and stronger each level…and that felt nice. It wasnt a huge power leap..but i did notice it, in addition to that i got (if i wanted to) all 5 levels a trait to choose and with that quite some power increase. I loved it, a lot. Eventually the first feature pack came.. and with that the changes to the trait system…like packing the points into units of 5 and “questing” to get the traits you needed. By that point i was already 80 on my main, it didnt affect me much cept the slight restriction of how i wanna put my points into use. Was it for the better? Maybe…maybe not. Was the questing for traits that where available anytime for free back then a good idea? No.. really wasnt, but either way.. the system worked. Flawed? Yes.. but nothing is perfect. Besides the traits you also had the choice to do your story as you please. Lvl 5 and wanna do a lvl 10 story part? Suit yourself, but dont be surprised if you get rekt…and boy did i get rekt…and that was a good thing. It showed me that i need to man up and that i and my char need to get better. She needs more levels, skills and traits and a working build and i needed more skill to controll her, know the combos i can pull off, appreciate buffs, learning how extreme armor stats, runes and sigils can change the feel of the char even learning how food and stuff like wetstones can make a massive difference…and im glad i learned to play the game this way. There was a…how to put it… a feeling of accomplishment once i was able to do something on a level i shouldnt be able to do just yet…if i could trust the red “thats above your level man” text and man it did feel good as i stood there on the end of the stairs to the arah dungeon…fully maxed out with a build that worked just perfect for me with the hunter rifle in my chars hand that i looted from a risen mage that just didnt understand that we are not buying or selling at this door and i didnt have a clue what treasure it is, wearing my soldier stat armor and (back then) citadel runes. I felt like one of the big ones, ran alone through the deserted orr (was before the mega servers) and it felt like the ultimate test to me back then. I felt like i did it, ready to take on a foe that technically is waaaay above my chars head…and man..it felt so good, all the way through the leveling. The NPE now takes that “magic” away… it really does. It locks down everything. “Want fun? NO! You arent the right level.. oh noes you could get hurt or challenged! Back to doing these hearts and come back when you are lvl 10.”
“No! NO! You cant learn your weapon skills by using the weapon! What are you thinking?! Think that is a joke?! NO! You could get confused and by all means we cant have that” I mean what the hell… Leveling isnt an experience anymore, it is more of a…uhh.. its more like getting bound in a straight jacket that opens one of its countless shackles and locks all few levels, im not gonna lie.. if i had experienced gw2 after the NPE and didnt know how it once was i wouldnt even be there anymore to type this.

To come to a point… IMO the NPE is the darkest, most evil and destructive force in tyria and it did ruin leveling for me.. zhaitan take notes.. thats how you spread terror across the lands. I will make a char soon.. but i wont level it, i gonna use tomes and scrolls and THEN i gonna step out to the world and try to re-life the glory…well minus the leveling cause seriosly… kitten that kitten

I prefer discovering things in my own way and figuring things out for myself preferable to the system that GW2 has recently implemented.

I’ve been playing my alt on and off after the NPE, and it felt like Anet is trying too hard to spread progression over 80 levels.

If the cap is 30 or 40, but I gain a trait point every level, I would be more excited when I level up.

As it stands I find it hard to get excited when I get stat increases or some equipment, especially the latter, which I think is more suited as rewards for completing quests and events.

Vayne.8563:

A lot of people feel that by gating things, Anet has made the game more like other MMOs. What they’re ignoring is that many of the things that are gated were already gated anyway and just the level changed, so if it wasn’t generic before it’s not generic now.

It amazes me how people can be against time gating, yet for gear progression.

Basaltface.2786:

~massive wall of text~

Just fyi. The changes to the trait system are not part of the NPE. They were in a completely different feature patch, 6 months beforehand.

Olvendred.3027:

Basaltface.2786:

~massive wall of text~

Just fyi. The changes to the trait system are not part of the NPE. They were in a completely different feature patch, 6 months beforehand.

did you read that i summed up my whole experience in leveling\playing and that the trait changes came before the npe and i actually prefered the trait changes over the NPE? Cause thats practially what i wanted to bring across.

Basaltface.2786:

Olvendred.3027:

Basaltface.2786:

~massive wall of text~

Just fyi. The changes to the trait system are not part of the NPE. They were in a completely different feature patch, 6 months beforehand.

did you read that i summed up my whole experience in leveling\playing and that the trait changes came before the npe and i actually prefered the trait changes over the NPE? Cause thats practially what i wanted to bring across.

Not really, no. You started a giant paragraph with “NPE is bad” and then there was a lot of stuff about traits in there.

But thanks for clarifying

For the 10.000th time :
The NPE is not the problem .. the new trait-system from the first feature pack is the only real problem ( imho )

It was also simply absurd that we got on the one hand the ability to change traits
on the fly .. what was great for all old characters to test your traits, while new
characters now simply don’t have the traits to make use of that.

I’ve gotten 2 tickets with the last 5-6 key i got after that change .. and before i have
gotten a total of 7 scrapps with all the keys from the last 2 years.

No luck involved AT ALL, not a drop of RNG involved in getting tomes.

Literally 2-4 matches of PvP, which I do ANYWAY, gives you a tome.
The other rewards in PvP are worth a lot as well, so its not like you are grinding tomes at all.
Not to mention PvP is fun as all hell. (as in hell is fun, no idea how that makes sense, but point is its fun!)

So key farming with the level 10 quest is still perfectly viable.

Andred.1087:

“I propose I’m right and you’re wrong so there, deal with it.”

You’re gonna have to do a little better than that. People have also stated they love the changes, and want to see more like it, so where is your argument exactly?

Some of us left because of the issues with NPE still affecting veteran alts as well as the fact that once again we receive a promise for a goal that’s not being touched or handled at that to the pile of promised made 9 months ago as well as those never implemented in the first place and well you can see where this is going. Call us when integrity becomes a priority will you? Because until then, making it seem like people are crazy because we value integrity and ethics in all business practices just makes your replies look silly.

tigirius.9014:

Andred.1087:

“I propose I’m right and you’re wrong so there, deal with it.”

You’re gonna have to do a little better than that. People have also stated they love the changes, and want to see more like it, so where is your argument exactly?

Some of us left because of the issues with NPE still affecting veteran alts as well as the fact that once again we receive a promise for a goal that’s not being touched or handled at that to the pile of promised made 9 months ago as well as those never implemented in the first place and well you can see where this is going. Call us when integrity becomes a priority will you? Because until then, making it seem like people are crazy because we value integrity and ethics in all business practices just makes your replies look silly.

Some people don’t know the definition of the word promise and trot it out at pretty much any moment to try to prove a point.

The NPE is fine. You get through most of the worst of it in two hours. The trait system not so much, but the NPE?

This is truly truly a storm in a teacup.

Basaltface.2786:

did you read that i summed up my whole experience in leveling\playing and that the trait changes came before the npe and i actually prefered the trait changes over the NPE? Cause thats practially what i wanted to bring across.

To be honest, I didn’t read it either. No disrespect, but you should break apart your response. The ‘wall of text’ is rather intimidating and off-putting to most posters.

Again, no disrespect to you, but just saying it’s doubtful most forum posters will read it all because it lacks white space.

Even if you had a valid point in there . . . somewhere.

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

Having to wait until SO FAR into my character’s career to have access to a full ability rotation just feels awful.

This is why I will never make another toon. Thank the Gods I got my toons to 80 before this awful NPE came into being. Maybe, if they give vet players a way to bypass all that crap, maybe I’ll make another toon. If they don’t, I’ll just be happy with what I have and never make a new toon.

I would love it if the level cap were reduced to 20, but that might be an unnecessary amount of coding.

The problems currently are that not every level is genuinely rewarding, and we don’t really know when we will get each reward.

Firstly, “unlocking” aspects of the game such as BLTC and vistas should never take up a reward slot. We should never get nothing instead of something.

Secondly, divide up the real rewards in a sensible way. Instead of giving a huge chunk of all primary attributes every few levels, give a moderate bonus to just 1 attribute per level, and throw in skill and trait points in between where appropriate. Make the pattern repeat as neatly as possible, preferably every 10 levels.

Other rewards, unlocks, and reveals should only be stacked on top of these rewards, never replacing them.

Finally, add a tooltip on the experience bar showing the next few levels of rewards.

This old chestnut on NPE….

Rangelost.4857:

Oh, and did I mention Farmer Eda? I’m sorry, I think I need to mention Farmer Eda. I’m going to mention Farmer Eda.

Alright, so Farmer Eda. We’re all familiar with that one. There used to be this task in Queensdale where you’d collect apples in an orchard, and after you helped her, she’d offer you some apple pie, and you could even purchase her own home recipe.

And somehow, apples being baked into a pie must have been too confusing for new players because they were removed. That’s right, apple pies were removed from the apple pie merchant.

So why am I talking about this? Well, have you even read the dialogue? Here, let me quote every word from the conversation.

• Farmer Eda:
  Like my orchard? The apples we harvest here make for delicious pies. My husband used to harvest the apples, before he passed away.
• Player:
  Pie? I like pie. Can I have one?
• Farmer Eda:
  Of course! You’ve been a great help around here. You’re more than welcome to a slice or two.
• Player:
  Yum. Pie!

And what does she sell?

A MEASURING SPOON.

THAT is IT.

This is December 2014. The change was introduced in September 2014. For 3 months now, players have been deceitfully promised apple pie, which of course they never got.

Can you imagine the confusion on the poor new players’ faces? Freshly starting adventurers, still dreaming to one day become great heroes, now haunted by a void in the pit their stomach, a void which will never truly be filled by the rewarding taste of a well-deserved apple pie…

Actually… she gives you a pie. In the face.

Ask about pie, and when the vendor window opens up, you may hear a ‘splat’ sound effect. That’s her hitting you in the face with a pie, you just don’t see it because it’s covered by the vendor window.

There’s your reward for helping her out. Enjoy.

And threads got merged but not a single word from those who should have a answer…

Disclaimer: This is just from one incident, and one person’s perspective. What I’m going to say, is probably not the same for every newcomer of GW2. But I think it deserves enough merit to wave this around and say, “Hey, Anet. Look over here.” And above all, I’m not an expert on video game statistics.

I’ll do my best to keep this short and sweet, yet informative.

Let me ask: What is NPE actually supposed to accomplish? Teach newcomers how GW2 is played? Help them learn the mechanics to enjoy the game? Add in rewards and incentive to level to 80? Remove confusing elements so non-gamers are not frustrated?

A friend of mine who played “this other game” Has no incentive to even try GW2 out. He was pretty much a new player, and saw GW2 as grindy, only fun at max level, but no real end-game content. And honestly, as a vet gamer of GW2, it is not my duty to sit down and try and explain what GW2 is. That is the job of the NPE.

Play How You Want
What the vets know
There’s PvP, dungeons, world events, WvW, living story, map exploration, collectables, fractals, guild missions, crafting, TP flipping – plenty choices on what you want to do to kick back and relax. You can go with hardcore elite lvl 50 fractal runs, or be lazy on the world boss train.

What the newcomers know
When I get to level 80, there’s no guild raids, there’s no GvG, ascended stats gear is useless, legendary are just for show.

Guild Wars 2 is not grindy
What the vets know
-Leveling can come from EOTM (bleh. Please, revamp that place), Tomes from pvp or living world. Leveling shouldn’t matter and you should just run out and experience the world of Tyria for what it has to offer. You can join dungeons and learn them. And the personal story (used to) be very helpful in gaining a little bit of exp.

What the newcomers know
No one wants a non 80 in a dungeon. Hearts are converted to quests. Map completion is only effective with going from point A, to point B, to point C. Personal story is just a sidequest.

Levels shouldn’t matter
What the vets know
Well, we want the 80s or your best toon, because what we’re doing matters. We don’t want to carry someone who’s putting in as little effort as possible, and just sits back for the ride. But hey, if we’re in a big group a few underlevels is fine. Just come out and do your best.

What the newcomers know
No one wants me.

End Game
What the vets know
End game is…getting the freedom to do whatever you want. World events like Triple Trouble and Tequatl are the closest we got to raids in that other game. Best part, you’re not obligated to play a specific role, or grind out this event for that specific drop. There’s a lot of other choices to get the gear you want. Sometimes, gear is not even that important – game mechanics matter more than fancy gear.

What the newcomers know
There’s no end game. This other game has advanced mechanics that require more than stack in one spot and press a bunch of keys.

Traits
What the vets know
The new system sucks. But at least I’m rich enough to buy my way out of it.

What the newcomers know
The new system sucks. But I’m not rich enough to buy my way out of it. It’s just more grinding.

(Yeah, sorry. You muddled up this one)

Skillfulness
What the vets know
You got 5 weapon skills, one heal skill, three utility, one elite. BUT, it expands much farther than that. Each skill can have a different cause and effect. Fields and finisher mechanics are a must-know. When to apply boons and condis. When to heal your party. How each class compliments and assists the group, with a ‘soft trinity’ of DPS, support, and damage mitigation. Knowledge of effective gameplay only comes from experience – there is no guide that encompasses every trait, trick, and tip of said class.

What the newcomers know
There’s no trinity, healers aren’t important since everyone can heal. Tanks are useless since they don’t do enough damage. You’re either damage, damage, damage, or trash. Boring. And I can’t use every skill I have.

Devs, you totally missed the chance to showcase your hard work! My friend did mention that one good point GW2 has over other games, is that this was a lot more beautiful. The graphics are stunning, hands down. But the actual mechanics are being overlooked and missed. They are looking at this game through the frames welded by other games, and they don’t see what GW2 has. I really have no advice on how you can take those glasses away.

You gotta think of something, and the NPE didn’t help. All it’s done, is make this game look more grindy. It looks less appealing. And it gives no incentive, no reward, to keep trudging on, jumping from one map completion to the next, to get to 80 for a game with no end content. Or to jump in EOTM and follow a dorito for fast levels, then pop out and not know a single important game mechanic of your class.

Please, change the NPE. It was a good idea, but not that great of an implementation.

(I’ve attached a short discussion of what my friend and I talked about. Red is me, green is my friend.)

I think you could change “newcomer” to “someone from WoW” and the post would make a lot more sense.

The NPE did miss the mark, yes. But so did your friend.

If you don’t like the game, don’t play it.

Maybe it was intended more for those that didn’t come from WoW, and that particular mindset. /shrug

In the conversation, you were expressing negatives as well as your friend.

• I hate that place
• I wish they didn’t mess up the story
• dumbed it down

Now, it’s also obvious there is history between you, so maybe you “knew” he wouldn’t like those things either. If it were someone for whom you didn’t know that for sure, expressing your own negatives could prejudice them to dislike those things also. Still, it’s pretty clear your friend prefers a game where leveling is something you endure while getting through asap to get to the good stuff. That’s not this game.

As to your suggestions: Sure, Anet could tell people more about the game. That’s kind of what the point was about certain aspects of NPE (i.e., introducing mechanics like salvage, downed state, etc. at different times even though someone could theoretically use them beforehand; the pointer thing). However, I doubt it would have helped in the case of your friend, because the GW2 leveling game and the GW2 endgame are not all that different, and it seems that he wants a game where they are.

You brought over a vertical progression based person (IF IM NOT THE BEST IM NOTHING) to a horizontal progression based game. It’s not surprising they think there’s no end game since to them, there isn’t.

In addition, you encouraged him to think badly about the game.

(That place is awful
I wish they didn’t mess up the story
Well, it was too complicated for new players. I’m not joking. So ANet revamped everything and dumbed it down
But then, that kind of kills it for people who do know how to play mmos -.- )

Telling him this before they go there “tells” him how to feel about it ahead of time. After all, if that’s how you feel it must be right. He never got a chance to encounter it without already knowing “that it’s bad, that it killed it for people who know how to play MMOs” (Which means if he did try it and like it, he is one of the people who doesn’t know how to play MMOs. It’s a way to subtly encourage someone to never like something as they won’t want to be seen as inferior). Your conversation with him makes me wonder what else you told him that was negative and put him off the game.

One person, who is used to and likes to play vertical progression games and who was told by his friend that the story line and EOTM is bad (and no telling what else you told him was bad), is not a good sample to base your analysis of the NPE.

The NPE improved pacing and rewards. WoW players in general, coming with a WOW mindset may well not like this game and that’s okay.

Many of us can’t stand WoW. Not every game will be for everyone.

There are a lot of people who jump in games judge fast and leave. It’s normal. There’s nothing to see here.

In my opinion, your friend likely wouldn’t have stayed anyway, but your own prejudiced probably didn’t help.

Actually the wow player pool is exactly where they should be looking for players, where else would you find 10 million players already interested in mmos? I’ve played many mmos and wow for many years, including a one month stint with the latest expansion after a 3 year break from it. I’m back to playing GW2 for wvw, I’m sure there are others like me who can play GW2 without the wow mindset, I also know of a friend who can’t play anything else without the wow mindset. Both types of players exist and it’s really not the best interest of GW2 to ignore wow players entirely.

That doesn’t mean killing the uniqueness of GW2 and dumbing down the systems. I just recently leveled a new thief to 80 through the NPE and I still think the NPE is terrible compared to the old system, the new pacing and rewards did not seem to be better especially with the new trait system. How many actual true newbie mmo players do you really think GW2 will get now? over something else as big as wow? Many of the GW1 players who wanted to try GW2 probably have at this point already too. The NPE systems was a complete waste of dev time, some things needed to changed sure, but not the entire leveling experience.

Why do players lump the Traits revamp in with the NPE? So odd.

Truthfully OP, if I was that guy I wouldn’t have stayed either. If the person who talked me into trying the game doesn’t have anything good to say about it, why the heck should I hang around. And no, an unsupported statement that it’s better than WoW (coming after statements about how bad the game is) doesn’t count.

No wonder he left.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Why do players lump the Traits revamp in with the NPE? So odd.

I believe they were done at the same time for the chinese release? but it was staggered for na. Given the time between the revamps (5 months) I really don’t think they were developed separately but were intended to be together as a full revamp from level 1-80.

It’s not smart to try to poach from WoW or other MMOs. Why? They can only play one game, and they’re not going to switch to a game they have to build up from zero when they’re established in the other, maybe having been established for a long time . . .

Players just have a lot of inertia, so to speak. They’re perfectly fine in motion on the one game, why switch to another where they need to put a whole lot of time and effort into “spinning up to speed”? ( . . . even if, with GW2, it’s not about being the best but just being halfway competent enough to get by.)

At least, that’s why I wound up dropping FF14 after a long time staring at how much work I’d need to continue doing daily just to crawl a little slower up progression every level.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s not smart to try to poach from WoW or other MMOs. Why? They can only play one game, and they’re not going to switch to a game they have to build up from zero when they’re established in the other, maybe having been established for a long time . . .

Players just have a lot of inertia, so to speak. They’re perfectly fine in motion on the one game, why switch to another where they need to put a whole lot of time and effort into “spinning up to speed”? ( . . . even if, with GW2, it’s not about being the best but just being halfway competent enough to get by.)

At least, that’s why I wound up dropping FF14 after a long time staring at how much work I’d need to continue doing daily just to crawl a little slower up progression every level.

Your last sentence explains the exact reasoning for trying to go after those players. You don’t poach the players who are still into wow, you go after the ones who are tiring of it. The one thing GW2 has over WoW is that it’s sub free and you can play it on your own time, with or in between games. Games like WoW tend to bleed players after the first 3 months or so of an expansion because they start getting to the point of only doing the dailies routine, do a raid once a week thing, a lot of players tend to take off until the end of the expansion when more content is available to them right away.

Hey, to anyone thinking I was only showing things in a negative light, no. I did not introduce him to GW2. I had no influence on what he first perceived. I’m not going to sugarcoat it, and I am not a blind fan. Whatever criticism I established is because I love this game, and do not want to see it become ‘grindy’, nor do I want it to be seen as such by newcomers. My friend saw GW2 as a grindfest with no endgame – that shouldn’t be his first impression.

They did butcher the story, (It’s missing chapters and out of order, for cryin’ out loud), people do dislike the grindy traits, EOTM went from amazing new WvW map with lots of potential, to PvE land karma farm.

I do not disagree: brand new players who never saw an MMO before have no idea what to do. The NPE does an important job of introducing that. But it’s incomplete. It neglects people who know what an MMO is. I don’t know what the statistic of ‘gamer to newbies’ is in GW2. Maybe it’s such a small minority it doesn’t matter. But I don’t think anyone else here but Anet would have an idea.

But NPE shouldn’t be reminiscent of grinding, in a game that is not meant to be grindy. It doesn’t explain the core elements that the vets already know about this game. From gamers that came from elsewhere, NPE is grindy. They see hearts as quests. EOTM is powerleveling. The story and lore are pushed aside and clumped together in haphazard chunks. Only fun stuff is at 80.

World events and living story =/= end game raids, even if both follow the same basic idea of a community of people working together over TS to accomplish a common goal with unique understanding of combat mechanics.

Xenesis.6389:

The one thing GW2 has over WoW is that it’s free and you can play it on your own time, with or in between games.

I don’t know about you, but I had to buy GW 2, so it’s not free, its cost to play it is a lot lower than WoW’s cost is, but it isn’t free to play game.

Magic Learner.8953:

Xenesis.6389:

The one thing GW2 has over WoW is that it’s free and you can play it on your own time, with or in between games.

I don’t know about you, but I had to buy GW 2, so it’s not free, its cost to play it is a lot lower than WoW’s cost is, but it isn’t free to play game.

Yes, but there’s still a vast gulf between B2P and P2P. I think we all know what he meant.

Arikyali.5804:

Hey, to anyone thinking I was only showing things in a negative light, no. I did not introduce him to GW2. I had no influence on what he first perceived. I’m not going to sugarcoat it, and I am not a blind fan. Whatever criticism I established is because I love this game, and do not want to see it become ‘grindy’, nor do I want it to be seen as such by newcomers. My friend saw GW2 as a grindfest with no endgame – that shouldn’t be his first impression.

They did butcher the story, (It’s missing chapters and out of order, for cryin’ out loud), people do dislike the grindy traits, EOTM went from amazing new WvW map with lots of potential, to PvE land karma farm.

I do not disagree: brand new players who never saw an MMO before have no idea what to do. The NPE does an important job of introducing that. But it’s incomplete. It neglects people who know what an MMO is. I don’t know what the statistic of ‘gamer to newbies’ is in GW2. Maybe it’s such a small minority it doesn’t matter. But I don’t think anyone else here but Anet would have an idea.

But NPE shouldn’t be reminiscent of grinding, in a game that is not meant to be grindy. It doesn’t explain the core elements that the vets already know about this game. From gamers that came from elsewhere, NPE is grindy. They see hearts as quests. EOTM is powerleveling. The story and lore are pushed aside and clumped together in haphazard chunks. Only fun stuff is at 80.

World events and living story =/= end game raids, even if both follow the same basic idea of a community of people working together over TS to accomplish a common goal with unique understanding of combat mechanics.

But…here’s the problem. Your opinion influenced his thoughts on the personal story and how its done. If you, his friend, cast a negative light on it, then chances are, he will too, despite not having done it yet. I mean, you’re his friend, he’s going to most likely trust your opinion on it.

And the other problem is, as others I personally know have, is they keep playing it thinking its like WoW, and its not. Its a habit that really takes a lot to break out of, because its so engraved in many other mmos. Its basically what the human mind does when they don’t understand something new, they try to relate it to something else they are familiar with.

As for endgame….did gw1 even have “endgame” other than gathering skins (for people who didn’t pvp)? I mean, it was basically find skills, find armor you like, play story. It just sounds like your friend is looking for raids with a gear treadmill as “end game” (in all honestly, if you think about it, WoW’s end game basically keeps moving the goal posts back every few months. What was end game at one point, is no longer end game, and do we really want something like that in gw2?).

I believe the NPE should be gradually explaining the game to the new players. It, however, should not be locking them out of 80% of the game for 10-20 levels. Most essential functions should also be compressed into the first 5-10 levels – I mean, before he got a trident from a reward, my friend assumed he was defenseless underwater.

Right:
“Hmmm, there’s that weapon I don’t seem to be able to use that dropped from a lvl 2 mob. Oh, a lake! Let’s dive! …OMFG UNDERWATER COMBAT”

Wrong:
“Ok, let’s just stay away from water cause I can’t do crap in there… ding, a new level! …WHAT? I COULD DO THAT ALL ALONG IF I KNEW?”

Xenesis.6389:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s not smart to try to poach from WoW or other MMOs. Why? They can only play one game, and they’re not going to switch to a game they have to build up from zero when they’re established in the other, maybe having been established for a long time . . .

Players just have a lot of inertia, so to speak. They’re perfectly fine in motion on the one game, why switch to another where they need to put a whole lot of time and effort into “spinning up to speed”? ( . . . even if, with GW2, it’s not about being the best but just being halfway competent enough to get by.)

At least, that’s why I wound up dropping FF14 after a long time staring at how much work I’d need to continue doing daily just to crawl a little slower up progression every level.

Your last sentence explains the exact reasoning for trying to go after those players. You don’t poach the players who are still into wow, you go after the ones who are tiring of it. The one thing GW2 has over WoW is that it’s free and you can play it on your own time, with or in between games. Games like WoW tend to bleed players after the first 3 months or so of an expansion because they start getting to the point of only doing the dailies routine, do a raid once a week thing, a lot of players tend to take off until the end of the expansion when more content is available to them right away.

Yeah, but let’s be honest here – that’s GW2 in a nutshell. No raids to plan for or high end gear to set your sights on in order to top the pile of other warriors/rangers/engineers in the game. Casually just do stuff at your pace and enjoy – it will be there or be back again soon.

(Except SAB, which was such a side-attraction which went nowhere… I almost hope they make a story reason it never gets completed as is and competition springs up thanks to the Consortium creating a knockoff.)

This game is nothing but finding things you want to do, and going for it. It’s not rewarding with gear so much as the “I did that” feeling. Sort of like its predecessor in that respect . . .

People who come here trying to escape the “daily task” sort of thing aren’t going to be satisfied. What they’ll see is the same sort of setup with no shiny carrot at the end, and wonder why a lot of the players seem to enjoy doing this stuff if it doesn’t mean anything.

That’s the deeper reason I think it’s less advisable to poach from other MMOs. The structure of game is both similar and different enough to throw people off-balance and turn them away.

TL;DR: some newbies want what Anet is offering. Or… they just want a change and are willing to try.

Here’s my answers to your points from my perspective as a guy thinking about buying it pre-launch and some commentary about post launch changes.

Bear in mind, I did a lot of reading and research before diving in and I would do it if I was new now. The information available to me pre-launch is still easily found and was a fraction of what is available now.

Arikyali.5804:

Play How You Want
_What the newcomers know_
When I get to level 80, there’s no guild raids, there’s no GvG, ascended stats gear is useless, legendary are just for show.

As a newcomer: I came to hate endgame and “have to have BIS now” mentality in other games. I had no interest in legendaries, still don’t. Ascended gear: I would have researched it and found that I can get along without it.

Guild Wars 2 is not grindy
What the newcomers know
No one wants a non 80 in a dungeon. Hearts are converted to quests. Map completion is only effective with going from point A, to point B, to point C. Personal story is just a sidequest.

As a newcomer: I looked forward to the personal story. That my choices impact my personal play was a novel idea. I also loved the idea of dynamic events. I learned that hearts were quests that didn’t need to be done linearly, or picked up, or even turned in… something I hated in other games. Dungeons addressed in later point.

Levels shouldn’t matter
What the newcomers know
No one wants me [in a dungeon].

As a newcomer: yup, for the most part. What I learned from experience: unless I run with guildies, I’m going to play hell getting a group if I am not 80, in exotics. Ascended and zerk help a lot (I rarely run full zerk and caved far enough to make Ascended weapons only because I had sooo many mats). I learned this when trying to unlock story dungeon traits at approx. lvl 60.

Arikyali.5804:

End Game
What the newcomers know
There’s no end game. This other game has advanced mechanics that require more than stack in one spot and press a bunch of keys.

As a newcomer: there is endgame but it is different. I was a newcomer who had bad WoWburn from the nasty raiding mentality. No trinity sounded like it might be fun. I liked the thought of deepsing, self healing, and party buffing/healing all at the same time.

Traits
What the newcomers know
The new system sucks. But I’m not rich enough to buy my way out of it. It’s just more grinding.

As a newcomer: if I had seen the trait thread, I would have had to think hard about whether this would keep me from not buying the game. I am pretty sure that I would have paid the money, especially since its on sale all the time. The art alone would be worth $25 (I would have youtubed it). What I know now: I hate the trait system and I might have said eff it and run around, enjoying the art and JPs, then left. Dunno.

Skillfulness
What the newcomers know
There’s no trinity, healers aren’t important since everyone can heal. Tanks are useless since they don’t do enough damage. You’re either damage, damage, damage, or trash. Boring. And I can’t use every skill I have.

As a newcomer: again, I loved the thought of no trinity. Even before launch Anet went into some detail about how it worked. I was fine with their skill acquisition (Anet went into it) and I would have been fine with it now.

Oh, the no monthly fee was a huge selling point. Even as I came to hate whatever game I was in due to that endgame mentality, I felt pushed to play because of the subscription. Horizontal progression was another huge one (Ascended… bah!) There were other misc. goodies I knew about pre purchase like not having to fight over nodes… yet another thing I despise from other games.

TL;DR again: some newbies want what Anet is offering. Or… they just want a change and are willing to try.

Astral Projections.7320:

You brought over a vertical progression based person (IF IM NOT THE BEST IM NOTHING) to a horizontal progression based game. It’s not surprising they think there’s no end game since to them, there isn’t.

In addition, you encouraged him to think badly about the game.

(That place is awful
I wish they didn’t mess up the story
Well, it was too complicated for new players. I’m not joking. So ANet revamped everything and dumbed it down
But then, that kind of kills it for people who do know how to play mmos -.- )

Telling him this before they go there “tells” him how to feel about it ahead of time. After all, if that’s how you feel it must be right. He never got a chance to encounter it without already knowing “that it’s bad, that it killed it for people who know how to play MMOs” (Which means if he did try it and like it, he is one of the people who doesn’t know how to play MMOs. It’s a way to subtly encourage someone to never like something as they won’t want to be seen as inferior). Your conversation with him makes me wonder what else you told him that was negative and put him off the game.

One person, who is used to and likes to play vertical progression games and who was told by his friend that the story line and EOTM is bad (and no telling what else you told him was bad), is not a good sample to base your analysis of the NPE.

What is this horizontal progression you speak of?.. because from what i noticed this game has no vertical (ok barely with ascended) and no horizontal progression at all.

Arikyali.5804:

(I’ve attached a short discussion of what my friend and I talked about. Red is me, green is my friend.)

any fallowups? did he become the best? or is still nothing?

you mention things like “there is no endgame” “stats don’t matter” a lot. Guess what? These are the reasons I came back here. Guild Wars 2 can be played casually. You don’t need to grind to be on par with someone else to be able to see more content that is locked for you until you grind enough. Guild Wars 2 is like a virtual sandbox. You log in, you do whatever activity you want. And that’s one of the reasons why it can stand out from other millions of MMOs on the market. Don’t try to change that.