Guild Wars 2

This is about the dynamic level adjustment system with respect to leveling down higher level characters in lower level zones.

First and foremost, I have asked this question over the course of the past few years, and not gotten a clear answer. Including being told the first 80 levels is a tutorial which is a level of intelligence I would rather not respond to.

While it would be great if the game had a real tutorial system outside of main content, it doesn’t. That’s a whole different topic. You start the game off in your respective instance with basic information on how to move and play. As you progress through the game, you are given more information, which over the years, has been updated and improved.

The main content of the game, however, starts as soon as the game starts. The story begins as soon as you create your character. You set off to progress your character to 80 looking forward to the great adventure that lies ahead of you.

The thing that ruins the game is that the level down system just doesn’t work at all. It is supposed to make higher level characters effectively the same level as the zone they’re in, but it doesn’t. Higher level characters are still effectively higher level than the zone they’re in.

I have given feedback over the problems it causes only to get ignored and trolled. With no real answer to why this is. Or why everybody seems to be fine with it this way. Despite the fact I have come close to just leaving the game on multiple occasions out of frustration of not being able to enjoy the content because of it.

GW2 has alot of great content. The design really shines when I’m playing with a group of characters no more than one or two levels above or below me. The zones really balance out well. It is the most fun experience of the game to party or just play with other players of even level. But as soon as a higher level steps in, it becomes pointless.

Higher level player just does everything, and because they’re supposedly “effectively the same level” as the zone, the players who are actually of the level in the zone get rewarded for doing pretty much nothing. This is simply frustrating when players actually want to be playing and enjoying their missions, but a higher level just walks in and kills everything.

Most of the time is spent just playing the game solo, and avoiding higher level players. And not even trying to find even level players to group with. As it is near impossible effort to get a party going. Despite playing the game grouped with even-level players being extremely fun. If I want to play solo, I can play a good RPG. I play a good MMO so that I can play with others.

The level down system would be great if it actually worked. I would have the ability to party with other players regardless of how high their level. It wouldn’t be difficult to find. And would be able to play content together on an even level. Yet because it doesn’t work, it doesn’t happen. Therefore, what? Your choice is pretty much to play through the content solo in a MMO. Because partying with a higher level player is utterly pointless.

I would just like to know why in the years this game has been out, the vast majority of the population doesn’t seem to find this a major problem, and some don’t even consider it problem at all. And think this is fine. I don’t understand it. I never ever get intelligent answers. Just more trolling and pointless comments that have nothing to do with the point – enjoying the great content of a great mmorpg from start to max level and beyond. Meaning enjoying the content/story/exploration/adventure of leveling up through to 80, including playing with others on an even field without interference from higher players ruining the experience.

(Just to be clear about how well designed the game is when it comes to balance, when actually grouped with players of real even level in a zone of that level the design of the game truly shines in that all the missions are really well balanced and enjoyable. As soon as a higher level enters the picture, it severely screws it.)

I’m not sure what you mean, I’ve played MMOs without level scaling, and a max-level toon can go to a lowbie zone and pretty much one-shot everything and wipe out whole areas with AOE before on-level toons can even get a single hit. That doesn’t happen here.

Yes, even when down-leveled an 80 toon is more powerful than an on-level toon in lowbie areas. But if you keep your gear up, even an on-level toon in masterwork or rare gear is much more powerful than most enemies. For most regular enemies, I only need a few shots regardless of level, veterans take a little longer and champions are challenging even for a down-leveled 80.

Are you keeping your gear at the same level as your toon? A level 30 warrior in level 10 white gear is not going to be as effective as one in level 26 greens. Likewise a level 80 in level 50-something blues is not going to be at full strength.

As for balance, the system is working as designed and as intended. There’s nothing to fix because it’s not broken. As a natural consequence of the progression of skills and gear, 80 level toons have access to things that lowbie toons do not, such as:

Exotic/Ascended gear
Three/Four stat bonuses per gear item (or more)
Trait lines – three traits with several bonuses to stats and additional effects per trait
Elite skills and professions

So they are by design more powerful – a down-leveled 80 in berserker gear is going to have bonuses to Power, Precision and Ferocity while a level 15 toon only has a bonus to Power, a level 25 toon maybe Power and Precision. In addition, traits give even more bonuses and do things like immobilize the target on a critical hit, etc.

This is by design, it is intended to be this way and while some people may not like it, the majority of players are fine with that and it’s not going to change.

In Rift, for example, downleveling is optional, and wasn’t even an option when the game launched. There are periodic zone-wide events with a giant boss at the end, it was common for max-level toons to sweep in and kill the boss so quickly that no one else could even get to it. That doesn’t happen here.

I don’t see the same problems in other mmos. It really is much easier to find a party of even-leveled players to do stuff together. I did play some of Rift f2p back around when they started implementing little creatures you can level up. I stopped after level 25, and noticed similar problems of having to play pretty much solo all the time. Not sure about the problem you mentioned, but I really couldn’t get much into it. But most MMOs don’t seem to have problems like this.

I know what you’re saying about gear. I use crafted gear which scales every five levels. Of course, if I find random drops that are better, I use those. The gear isn’t a major thing anyway. I’ll give an example.

Party up with a group of players of all the same level X. Maybe no more than 2 levels separation between eachother. Play in zone X, and continue leveling up through progressing zones together. The game works so well. The design of GW2 just shines because the difficulty of enemies balanced for players of that level just works. And it is extremely fun. While you can play solo for the most part, it is just way more fun to progress through the game while grouped up with others. Even when it comes to random events, random players jump in. As long as everybody is of fairly even level, the game is extremely fun and enjoyable.

Introduce a higher level player into the mix, it completely screws up the gameplay. It’s no longer a fun even match between a group of players and whatever they’re doing together. Higher level player/players present creates a pretty bad imbalance that really messes up the experience. It just becomes completely pointless. Like there’s no reason for you to even be there doing anything. It’s not a fun experience at all.

Regardless of what gear you have or armor you’re wearing. This is just the case throughout the main progression. Good progression means a player with normal gear can play through content with other players of similar level without gaining too much or too little exp. And without higher level players getting in the way. The level scaling would be great if it actually worked. If a higher level player really was even to the level meant for that zone, then playing together with a higher level player would be no different than playing with an even level player. But the scaling doesn’t actually put that higher level on the same level as the lower level player.

As it stands now, the problem of higher level players getting in the way is everywhere you go. This isn’t the case in other games that don’t have level adjustment systems like this. I can’t even tell why bother even having this system when it doesn’t even actually level players down. It just doesn’t make sense to have it if higher level players are still more powerful. Likewise, it’s hard to say that just getting rid of this system wouldn’t improve the game dramatically.

Sure if they fixed it so that it actually made higher level players truly even, it would improve the game so that it would be easier to find players to party with on your level. But even if they just got rid of it altogether, I’d say it would be easier to find players of even level to party with that how it currently is. Which is pretty much impossible.

crimlet.9872:

Sure if they fixed it so that it actually made higher level players truly even, it would improve the game so that it would be easier to find players to party with on your level. But even if they just got rid of it altogether, I’d say it would be easier to find players of even level to party with that how it currently is. Which is pretty much impossible.

Not sure why you say gear doesn’t matter, it’s the stat bonuses from the gear that are a major reason why higher level toons are more powerful when down-leveled.

Regardless, you asked for an explanation, and I gave it to you. This is not a broken system and it doesn’t need to be fixed.

tolunart.2095:

crimlet.9872:

Sure if they fixed it so that it actually made higher level players truly even, it would improve the game so that it would be easier to find players to party with on your level. But even if they just got rid of it altogether, I’d say it would be easier to find players of even level to party with that how it currently is. Which is pretty much impossible.

Not sure why you say gear doesn’t matter, it’s the stat bonuses from the gear that are a major reason why higher level toons are more powerful when down-leveled.

Regardless, you asked for an explanation, and I gave it to you. This is not a broken system and it doesn’t need to be fixed.

What explanation? How is it not broken? I haven’t seen an explanation.

The gear is meant so that players of a certain level can play effectively at their level. This goes for any RPG. If a player is of higher level, they are able to wear higher level gear. It means in a lower level area, they will be more powerful.

I stated clearly how it is broken. I even gave examples. All you said is that it isn’t broken. When I specifically created this topic for an explanation as to why nobody seems to have a problem with it being broken. So if it isn’t broken, then there wouldn’t be a problem. Yet I have seen this same exact problem at every single level of progression towards 80.

Where is the explanation? You mentioned gear. I told you about the gear I give my character. So that clearly isn’t creating the problem. As long as a character is wearing normal gear for their level, there shouldn’t be a problem. The gear is fine.

Even you said it:
“a down-leveled 80 in berserker gear is going to have bonuses to Power, Precision and Ferocity while a level 15 toon only has a bonus to Power, a level 25 toon maybe Power and Precision. In addition, traits give even more bonuses and do things like immobilize the target on a critical hit, etc.”

The basic problem I described is this – higher level players are overpowered in lower level zones. I went on to describe exactly the problems this causes for players of the correct level. Having the right gear for your level doesn’t fix the problem. So what is your point regarding gear?

You have yet to describe a single time how it’s not a problem. This has been a blatant problem with every character I’ve played at every level of the game. And all you’re saying is that the problem doesn’t exist. Well how and what are others doing so that the problem doesn’t exist for them? Because I have not seen any sort of resolution.

A solution meaning I am able to easily group up with others, and we are able to play together and progress through the game on even level without anybody being overpowered.

I really wish we weren’t so powerful in low level zones as well, but it doesn’t seem like it can be balanced either way. Even if they nerfed the stats, they still have more skills and utility to use.

I don’t think most players find it a problem. At least, I’ve not seen too many people commenting on the feature negatively.

Regardless, we spend little of each individual character’s time leveling; the bulk of play, and most, if not all, subsequent added content is designed for L80.

Chase.8415:

I really wish we weren’t so powerful in low level zones as well, but it doesn’t seem like it can be balanced either way. Even if they nerfed the stats, they still have more skills and utility to use.

This would only mean the system doesn’t make sense. Because why even implement a level down system that doesn’t actually put players on even level with the players in the lower level zones?

There’s two alternative designs without any level down system.

One would be to have it how other games are. In which lower level players aren’t able to party with higher level players.

Another would be to just let higher level players be as powerful as they are without ever leveling them down. It wouldn’t be much different anyway.

I think most players are just happy to have other people around helping them do events so they just don’t see any “problem” that you are seeing. If higher level players are there helping to kill everything faster and complete the event sooner rather than later it benefits them because “more loot” and “easier loot” at that.

I guess it would not be seen as a problem unless a pretty big chunk of the player base starts to feel this way about it like you do and thus also posts. But like I said people just want to log in, kill some things for a while and make as much coin as they can with the limited time they have. That or get out of the game whatever it is they get out of it. I think you would be in a very small minority here.

I am not saying this to say there is no problem or “too bad” or whatever. I guess it’s just the way the game is designed. And if you think about it, it is designed better than most with the fact there is no kill stealing and such. So again why would people worry that others are helping to kill things faster? Nothing is taken from them, in fact (like I said above) the events are going faster so they can move on to the next.

Now what it seems you are saying is you like a good challenge to your gameplay and playing with friends who also like that same challenge. If you are looking for that in open world, you wont find it sadly. Oh there might be the odd rare case perhaps such as an out of the way champion that most people don’t bother to kill. A good example could be the champ ooze in Frostgorge, you can go there and find it up pretty often.

Perhaps what you are looking for is in the dungeons, Fractals or even Raids?

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I don’t think most players find it a problem. At least, I’ve not seen too many people commenting on the feature negatively.

Which is what I’m trying to figure out. Like if you’re going to have a level down system that doesn’t actually level players down, then why even have it at all? Why not just get rid of it, and let higher level players into lower level zones, and do all the killing for lower level players. Since this is how it is anyway, it can be done without a level down system.

crimlet.9872:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I don’t think most players find it a problem. At least, I’ve not seen too many people commenting on the feature negatively.

Which is what I’m trying to figure out. Like if you’re going to have a level down system that doesn’t actually level players down, then why even have it at all? Why not just get rid of it, and let higher level players into lower level zones, and do all the killing for lower level players. Since this is how it is anyway, it can be done without a level down system.

Well I think Anet didn’t want to go too far one way or the other. If they are too OP and have all their stats then you would not only see them 1 hitting everything in the starter zones but every other zone between starter and 80. More people would start to see it and post about it like you are.

There is a HUGE difference with the level down compared to the starter zones and the others. You can go to a starter zone and 1-2 hit most things even in PVT gear. But each map after that, as they get higher you will notice your power slowly weakens depending of course on what stats you are running and I think this is a good thing.

If they go the other way and truly even out the power of the higher levels down to the levels of those of the zone then you will have people complain they levelled up for nothing and feel it was a waste of time. These posts have been made already in the past a few times so just imagine how much that would be magnified if it was like this.

I think they made the safe bet and I also think it works pretty well. It’s only now and then I think it can be a problem. Such as during events for daily when everyone is on those maps doing the events and it can be hard to reach the event in time or get your hits in because the zergs are there. Of course this is usually made worse because most either use Zerkers gear or some other high damage. So yeah I’m not sure if it’s more a level issue or builds tbh in these cases.

Paulytnz.7619:

I think most players are just happy to have other people around helping them do events so they just don’t see any “problem” that you are seeing. If higher level players are there helping to kill everything faster and complete the event sooner rather than later it benefits them because “more loot” and “easier loot” at that.

I guess it would not be seen as a problem unless a pretty big chunk of the player base starts to feel this way about it like you do and thus also posts. But like I said people just want to log in, kill some things for a while and make as much coin as they can with the limited time they have. That or get out of the game whatever it is they get out of it. I think you would be in a very small minority here.

I am not saying this to say there is no problem or “too bad” or whatever. I guess it’s just the way the game is designed. And if you think about it, it is designed better than most with the fact there is no kill stealing and such. So again why would people worry that others are helping to kill things faster? Nothing is taken from them, in fact (like I said above) the events are going faster so they can move on to the next.

Now what it seems you are saying is you like a good challenge to your gameplay and playing with friends who also like that same challenge. If you are looking for that in open world, you wont find it sadly. Oh there might be the odd rare case perhaps such as an out of the way champion that most people don’t bother to kill. A good example could be the champ ooze in Frostgorge, you can go there and find it up pretty often.

Perhaps what you are looking for is in the dungeons, Fractals or even Raids?

No the idea is for the game progression to be balanced.

There’s a reason why, in every single MMO, a higher level player can’t just party up with a lower level player, do everything for them, and everything is fine and dandy. Because it really screws the game up. Every MMO creates some way to prevent higher level players and lower level players from teaming together. And it makes sense to do so. GW2 doesn’t seem to care.

If DLA isn’t truly going to adjust higher level players, then might as well just do away with it altogether, and not even adjust higher level players at all. Just allow them to continue running around lower level areas interfering with game play of lower level players as they always have been.

It’s not that Guild Wars 2 doesn’t care; it’s a design decision, and they are/were very proud of it before launch. One of the major selling points, in fact.

Fortunately, for most, unfortunately, for the few, Guild Wars 2 is not like every other MMO in many, many cases. I suppose one must accept it for what it is, and what it isn’t.

I’ve leveled over 30 characters to 80. I’ve never had these problems. I don’t know why you have these problems.

I go into a zone, I do the stuff I want, and I move on.

Leveling is a transitive process. Simplest example is that no one can do your hearts for you. So you can do your hearts without interference from anyone. Hearts are a main part of leveling up by which time you’ll be 80 or close to it and none of this matters.

Gathering gives XP and no one can steal my nodes. If someone 80 is killing something and I get hits on it, I get XP and rewards.

Now I could shoot the same thing 8 times and kill it (and there’s no challenge to most of it anyway), or I can shoot it twice and get the same credit. That’s not an issue for play, that’s a bonus for leveling.

In fact, when I level, I tend to look for people who are playing so I can get kills faster. It’s not more challenging or more enjoyable to do everything myself. If I wanted to do everything myself I’d play a single player game.

Here I’m not THE hero but I’m part of a world. And other people live in that world.

If I were fighting bandits and other people were helping to fight bandits, I’d be happy that other people where helping to fight bandits, not sad that they were killing them so fast.

Nope, don’t see a problem here at all. Maybe it’s just a matter of perspective.

crimlet.9872:

There’s a reason why, in every single MMO, a higher level player can’t just party up with a lower level player, do everything for them, and everything is fine and dandy. Because it really screws the game up. Every MMO creates some way to prevent higher level players and lower level players from teaming together. And it makes sense to do so. GW2 doesn’t seem to care.

In Rift you can be in a party with any level toons. In SWTOR too, before they went to a down-leveling system like this one, you could do it too. I haven’t played an MMO that doesn’t let you team up with anyone regardless of level.

The situations you describe just aren’t happening. One cannot prove a negative – there’s no way to show you that this thing you claim is a problem is not a problem. This game has been chugging along for four years now as it is, and the level adjustments have never been a problem for most players.

It’s a design decision, while you may not agree with the decisions the devs made, that doesn’t make it wrong.

In many (dare I say, MOST) MMOs, the low level areas are seen as something to rush through and leave behind. No one playing them cares about the starting area once they out-level it. In GW2, even the starting area has something to offer a level 80 character. If nothing else, all maps are required for Map Completion.

Sure, my level 80 with ascended/legendary gear is going to have an easier time in Queensdale than my new level 2 with white gear, but I have EARNED an easier time by playing the game. Frankly, if my character was downgraded to be as weak as a starting character when I go to low level maps, robbing me of my earned advantages, I would quit the game. A max level character is still rewarded for having earned his level and superior gear, but can still be challenged in the low level maps.

I think the issue here is that you don’t like DLA and you want ANet to change a working and popular system to suit your wishes. DLA is NOT intended to make all players in a given map exactly equal in power. Its intention is to make all maps a viable choice for players regardless of the player’s level. In that regard, DLA is working as intended.

The trade-off is a strange one in my opinion.

You get to trounce everything when you’re of a higher level but you also get level 80 loot so you can’t really farm anything. My question is simply “Why would I go there?” which was the first problem I had with World Completion back in the day; when you pass through leveled zones and level through them to 80 it’s not bad but backtracking through level 1 zones sucks. It’s disinteresting to me. And I have to do it “or no premium item”?

I mean I don’t like DLA for the opposite reason actually; it makes you weaker needlessly to match content and “keep it challenging” when that’s really sort of an excuse for a lack of end-game. You rush to 80 to get the honor of being weak as kitten in a map filled with annoying goons in Ascended armor that cost you 700g.

I’m an all / nothing type of girl. I want all my power or just lower my level and the level of my equipment to be appropriate. I can see why the three stat thing screws things up though when the enemies were built for two stats or whatever.

A low level maxed equipped character is fairly equal to a downscaled 80. Both can pretty much kill regular enemies instantly.

Healix.5819:

A low level maxed equipped character is fairly equal to a downscaled 80. Both can pretty much kill regular enemies instantly.

I would have believed this before I had taken the plunge and leveled a Mesmer to 80. That was the worst and most frustrating thing I had ever done in this game. The difference is not even comparable between a level 20 mesmer and a level 80 mesmer downscaled to 20.

I don’t see any major problem here. On a new character with appropriate items for the level, mobs die just as quick and are just easy to deal with. There is less synergy and flow because of a lack of traits (and utilities/weapon skills, at very low levels) but the only time it becomes a problem (imo) is when your items are 10-20 levels or more below the zone mobs, which can mean the mobs take considerably longer to die.

Edit: I would agree if there were any competition for groups and it was difficult to level in GW2 (Then level-appropriate players should be stronger than downscaled players in level-appropriate zones), but there is not. Anyone can level solo in just about any zone outside of HoT (Orr may pose some difficulties but you’re likely 80 by then anyhow).

You are forgetting that a down levelled player will always be better than a “appropriate” level player because you have traits, utility skills that they will not. The system is not broken, it just dose not take away the skills and traits you have earned. I think people would get angry very quickly if they lost the use of the skills and traits they unlocked in lower level zones. What would be the point to it all?

DGraves.3720:

Healix.5819:

A low level maxed equipped character is fairly equal to a downscaled 80. Both can pretty much kill regular enemies instantly.

I would have believed this before I had taken the plunge and leveled a Mesmer to 80. That was the worst and most frustrating thing I had ever done in this game. The difference is not even comparable between a level 20 mesmer and a level 80 mesmer downscaled to 20.

I agree: there’s no comparison between L80/downscaled and Lx for mesmer (and for other profs). Then again, most elite specialization builds are uber compared to their closest non-elite version.

I see the concept the OP is trying to highlight, but I can’t agree that it’s a problem for Guild Wars 2. As an appropriate-to-area character, I’ve never had any trouble getting kills for events or hearts. I have had far more trouble from other downscaled L80s in zones that are having a 4-event daily, but that’s not an issue with downscaling, just with event scaling.

tl;dr no explanation is needed, because the DLA (?) system is working as intended. IMO, the OP believes it to be broken because it doesn’t work the way they would like to be.

The level down system is working as intended.
I can’t do thousands of burn damage and onehit champs in a level 10 zone, but I can do more damage than a beginner. Otherwise, what was the point of me levelling up?
The current system is one of the best systems in any game I have seen for keeping low-level content relevant without “punishing” the player for playing down.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I don’t think most players find it a problem. At least, I’ve not seen too many people commenting on the feature negatively.

Regardless, we spend little of each individual character’s time leveling; the bulk of play, and most, if not all, subsequent added content is designed for L80.

This just reiterates the question. It’s not about post 80. Take out everything after 80 aside from players going into lower level zones. I’m referring to the game from perspective of player from 1-80.

Regarding the game from 1-80, it makes it less enjoyable to play through if higher levels are around just able to kill everything. Might as well get rid of the level down system altogether, and just allow higher level players play in lower level zones at full capacity without leveling them down at all. Considering leveling them down doesn’t truly even them out anyway, why even do it?

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

It’s not that Guild Wars 2 doesn’t care; it’s a design decision, and they are/were very proud of it before launch. One of the major selling points, in fact.

Fortunately, for most, unfortunately, for the few, Guild Wars 2 is not like every other MMO in many, many cases. I suppose one must accept it for what it is, and what it isn’t.

Yes, but the concept of it is great. It was a selling point because it was presumed that higher levels would be truly leveled down. And you could easily find other players to party with without needing to seek out players of even level.

It would be an amazing feature if it actually worked. But it doesn’t since it doesn’t truly put higher level players on even level with lower level. Which makes it pointless to even have. It doesn’t level down players to fully make them even with players in lower level zone, and so might as well not even level them down at all, and keep them at full power. If it actually worked, then yes absolutely it would be great.

Again, most enjoy the down-level aspect of the game, or, at least, have few to no objections.

There are always other avenues to explore to find game designs that provide more of what one is looking for.

Good luck.

Vayne.8563:

I’ve leveled over 30 characters to 80. I’ve never had these problems. I don’t know why you have these problems.

I go into a zone, I do the stuff I want, and I move on.

Leveling is a transitive process. Simplest example is that no one can do your hearts for you. So you can do your hearts without interference from anyone. Hearts are a main part of leveling up by which time you’ll be 80 or close to it and none of this matters.

Gathering gives XP and no one can steal my nodes. If someone 80 is killing something and I get hits on it, I get XP and rewards.

Now I could shoot the same thing 8 times and kill it (and there’s no challenge to most of it anyway), or I can shoot it twice and get the same credit. That’s not an issue for play, that’s a bonus for leveling.

In fact, when I level, I tend to look for people who are playing so I can get kills faster. It’s not more challenging or more enjoyable to do everything myself. If I wanted to do everything myself I’d play a single player game.

Here I’m not THE hero but I’m part of a world. And other people live in that world.

If I were fighting bandits and other people were helping to fight bandits, I’d be happy that other people where helping to fight bandits, not sad that they were killing them so fast.

Nope, don’t see a problem here at all. Maybe it’s just a matter of perspective.

This is completely and utterly off the point.

I never once ever said anything about playing solo. That is the problem with the game due to higher level players being around.

I said the problem is finding players of truly even level to play with. As that is where they design of the game shines. Learn how to read before replying with something completely irrelevant to the whole entire point.

Not to mention everything you seem to be talking about only reinforces the problem that makes it so they might as well not even have a level down system anyway, and allow higher levels to be at full capacity when playing in lower level zones.

I haven’t done 30 characters, but I have done more than a few. And the same problem occurs every single time. You say you never had a problem, then actually address what I actually wrote instead of responding with something that has nothing to do with it. Because players not having a problem is the exact question I haven’t found an answer to. Considering I repeatedly encounter this problem at every level with every character trying to play through the first 80 levels.

crimlet.9872:

It would be an amazing feature if it actually worked. But it doesn’t since it doesn’t …

You mean, it would be a feature you would like better if it worked the way you envision.

As others have pointed out, it’s working as ANet intended and as others expect (or, at least, are comfortable with).

Paulytnz.7619:

crimlet.9872:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I don’t think most players find it a problem. At least, I’ve not seen too many people commenting on the feature negatively.

Which is what I’m trying to figure out. Like if you’re going to have a level down system that doesn’t actually level players down, then why even have it at all? Why not just get rid of it, and let higher level players into lower level zones, and do all the killing for lower level players. Since this is how it is anyway, it can be done without a level down system.

Well I think Anet didn’t want to go too far one way or the other. If they are too OP and have all their stats then you would not only see them 1 hitting everything in the starter zones but every other zone between starter and 80. More people would start to see it and post about it like you are.

There is a HUGE difference with the level down compared to the starter zones and the others. You can go to a starter zone and 1-2 hit most things even in PVT gear. But each map after that, as they get higher you will notice your power slowly weakens depending of course on what stats you are running and I think this is a good thing.

If they go the other way and truly even out the power of the higher levels down to the levels of those of the zone then you will have people complain they levelled up for nothing and feel it was a waste of time. These posts have been made already in the past a few times so just imagine how much that would be magnified if it was like this.

I think they made the safe bet and I also think it works pretty well. It’s only now and then I think it can be a problem. Such as during events for daily when everyone is on those maps doing the events and it can be hard to reach the event in time or get your hits in because the zergs are there. Of course this is usually made worse because most either use Zerkers gear or some other high damage. So yeah I’m not sure if it’s more a level issue or builds tbh in these cases.

But they did go too far. All levels have areas they can enjoy. Post 80, there is lots of good content. OK. But pre-80, it doesn’t matter if the player is 80. It doesn’t matter if the player is 5 levels above. They are so overpowered that it makes playing through the levels completely pointless when they’re around. You might as well throw away your mouse and kb and log out. Or just quit the game altogether considering how frustrating this can be.

Yet the complete complete opposite is the case when playing any level in a group where nobody is 1 or 2 even 3 levels apart. Leveling and proegressing through the game is actually extremely enjoyable.

This is a you problem, not a game problem. I suggest playing one of those countless other MMOs that handle it better.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

crimlet.9872:

It would be an amazing feature if it actually worked. But it doesn’t since it doesn’t …

You mean, it would be a feature you would like better if it worked the way you envision.

As others have pointed out, it’s working as ANet intended and as others expect (or, at least, are comfortable with).

Yet with zero explanation on how anybody can consider this working out which is the whole reason I started this topic. For an actual tangible explanation as to how nobody seems to have a problem. When I’ve encountered the problem constantly to the detriment of my games. This isn’t a minor problem like deranged wardrobe system or some other petty thing. This is a major problem throughout every level of the game.

tolunart.2095:

This is a you problem, not a game problem. I suggest playing one of those countless other MMOs that handle it better.

Completely circular. Does not address the actual question whatsoever completely disregarding the question. Circular meaning all you have done is restate the question instead of provide an actual answer.

What is your point for responding if all you’re doing is restating the question asked?

This feature is working fine, the purpose is not to make higher level characters the exact same as actual level characters it’s too make sure that the higher levels don’t one shot everything so that they can go back to lower level areas. In my experience having higher level characters around doesn’t negatively impact my gameplay while leveling. They’re not so overpowered in this game that they dominate the events.

From my experience, which is limited, people are generally happy when a higher level comes help out with events, especially when there are champions.

So this could be a simple case of you being part of a minority so small that Anet will not change what is apparently working for most people.

crimlet.9872:

What is your point for responding if all you’re doing is restating the question asked?

I responded to your OP and explained the situation but you refused to accept it. Others have done the same and you refuse to accept their responses. There is no problem with the game, the problem is your expectations. The game will not change, therefore the only solution is for you to change your expectations or play a different game.

crimlet.9872:

tolunart.2095:

This is a you problem, not a game problem. I suggest playing one of those countless other MMOs that handle it better.

Completely circular. Does not address the actual question whatsoever completely disregarding the question. Circular meaning all you have done is restate the question instead of provide an actual answer.

What is your point for responding if all you’re doing is restating the question asked?

He isn’t. He is pointing out that the problem is not objective but completely dependent on your perception. Properly geared characters of the right level for the map are weaker than downleveled 80’s, but they are not that much weaker as you seem to imply. The main point of difference is that characters that are in the middle of the leveling process are rarely fully geared up.
Get a character of the proper level, gear it up in the best available armor and you will see that you too are blowing through content. Yes, the 80’s will still do it better, but the difference, while visible, is not as massive as you claim.

So, as tolunart said, it’s not a problem that game has. It’s a problem you, personally have.

But if you want an explanation: the reason it works that way is because Anet wanted leveled-up players to have a reason to go back to low-level areas and help out new players. At the same time, they also wanted the level to matter. Thus there is an advantage, but it’s small enough that downleveled players can still receive good rewards.

tolunart.2095:

crimlet.9872:

What is your point for responding if all you’re doing is restating the question asked?

I responded to your OP and explained the situation but you refused to accept it. Others have done the same and you refuse to accept their responses. There is no problem with the game, the problem is your expectations. The game will not change, therefore the only solution is for you to change your expectations or play a different game.

No you absolutely have not given a clear answer. All I see is people saying that they have not had a problem. Well how is that? I have seen the same problem every single time. And glib statements reiterating the question are not in any way shape or form legitimate explanations.

Leveled down players are more powerful than the players of the actual level of the zone. Then claims that they aren’t so powerful that they interfere with the content, and are even welcome by some people.

Yet they clearly tip the scale of battles in a way that make the content pointless for lower levels to even play.

Let’s say for example, the developers prevented higher level players from participating with lower level altogether or actually leveled them down to the base capabilities of that level.

If preventing higher level players from participating with lower level players, then the gameplay of the zone is actually difficult to play through. Players actually have to play the game instead of just mash random buttons because they have a higher level there steam rolling everything.

If actually leveling higher level down to base capabilities of the lower level, then it’s pretty much the same as not having a higher level player there. But also gives lower level players somebody of even level to group up or play together with. Knowing that the player next to you isn’t more powerful than you are. So you can enjoy missions together on an even level.

The way it is now, level down system doesn’t truly put higher level players on an even field. They are more powerful than you are. You might as well throw away your kb/mouse in frustration. Leave the game. Or quite playing altogether. Because who wants to play with somebody there that is clearly more powerful that it’s like you being there doesn’t even tip any scales?

Gehenna.3625:

From my experience, which is limited, people are generally happy when a higher level comes help out with events, especially when there are champions.

So this could be a simple case of you being part of a minority so small that Anet will not change what is apparently working for most people.

Completely and utterly restating the question with no actual answer in sight.

Astralporing.1957:

crimlet.9872:

tolunart.2095:

This is a you problem, not a game problem. I suggest playing one of those countless other MMOs that handle it better.

Completely circular. Does not address the actual question whatsoever completely disregarding the question. Circular meaning all you have done is restate the question instead of provide an actual answer.

What is your point for responding if all you’re doing is restating the question asked?

He isn’t. He is pointing out that the problem is not objective but completely dependent on your perception. Properly geared characters of the right level for the map are weaker than downleveled 80’s, but they are not that much weaker as you seem to imply. The main point of difference is that characters that are in the middle of the leveling process are rarely fully geared up.
Get a character of the proper level, gear it up in the best available armor and you will see that you too are blowing through content. Yes, the 80’s will still do it better, but the difference, while visible, is not as massive as you claim.

So, as tolunart said, it’s not a problem that game has. It’s a problem you, personally have.

But if you want an explanation: the reason it works that way is because Anet wanted leveled-up players to have a reason to go back to low-level areas and help out new players. At the same time, they also wanted the level to matter. Thus there is an advantage, but it’s small enough that downleveled players can still receive good rewards.

Doesn’t explain. The fact remains that a player higher than level X is still more powerful than a player truly at level X. Even when the player that is truly at level X has all the best equipment for their level. A higher level player with all the best equipment for their level, scaled down, is still more powerful.

If designed in a way that truly puts the higher level player to be the base equivalent of level X so that they would have no advantages over somebody of level X, then there would be no problem. You’re not depriving the lower level player at level X of enjoyability due to having somebody who is overpowered around. And you’re not depriving the higher level player of enjoyability of enjoying content at their higher levels, and being too powerful to enjoy content at lower level zones.

So you tell me how anybody doesn’t see any problem when a higher level players is present weakening the quality of the gameplay. Yet when playing with others of even level with no higher level players around, it makes for true gameplay.

crimlet.9872:

The way it is now, level down system doesn’t truly put higher level players on an even field. They are more powerful than you are. You might as well throw away your kb/mouse in frustration. Leave the game. Or quite playing altogether. Because who wants to play with somebody there that is clearly more powerful that it’s like you being there doesn’t even tip any scales?

And yet for four years and counting millions of players have done just that. You have convinced yourself the game is broken, and we tend to see what we expect to see.

I’m not your enemy. I’ve tried to explain as best I can that the game was designed to work as it does, and that “more powerful” is a natural and expected result of the progression of skills and stats every toon develops as it levels up.

This is a game for casual players, not hardcores seeking a challenge. They’ve added some goals for advanced players like Ascended gear and raids, but these were added a considerable time after launch (three years later for raids), while the dynamic level adjustments were built into the game before launch.

It was always intended to work this way, and while you may not be the only one who doesn’t like it, the problem is not as clear or as severe as you seem to have convinced yourself it is. Thus, the problem exists in your own mind, not in the game. No other explanation is necessary or even possible.

crimlet.9872:

Gehenna.3625:

From my experience, which is limited, people are generally happy when a higher level comes help out with events, especially when there are champions.

So this could be a simple case of you being part of a minority so small that Anet will not change what is apparently working for most people.

Completely and utterly restating the question with no actual answer in sight.

What is your actual question though? Why ppl don’t find it a problem? That seems to be fairly obvious, but I’ll give it a stab.

At the moment, the downscaling isn’t causing an issue. It isn’t something being raised by new players on the forums and I can count on one hand how many threads I have seen in 4 years.

It wasn’t raised as an issue when Anet did their research on developing an NPE, regardless of how badly that NPE went down, it wasn’t something theat was felt needed changing.

Downscaling works because it keeps things relevant, but I feel you get that. Why doesn’t it completely level out a new player with a downscaled player? Because it simply isn’t logical to do so. No player will want to fully trade off all their traits, their progression completely, but the current system does level things out to an extent which keeps a fine balance between feeling like your character has progressed and also keeping the area relevant proportionatly.

GW2 isn’t the sort of game where most ppl feel the need to lvl with equal footing players. Even beyond 80, it is designed to take into account players at different progression levels and it makes sense to work that backwards with the downscaling.

This isn’t a skill based levelling experience, so a true equal footing is not needed or necessary.

It’s ANet’s compromise between players who want low level areas to still pose a challenge to them and players who want to show that they are strong when they go back to an area that is for a level that is below them.

You seem to want downleveling to put everyone at the same level as the players who are level appropriate for the map.

There was a poster who absolutely hated that there was downleveling and he wanted ANet to get rid of it. He wanted to one shot champions in Queensdale.

ANet took the middle ground. Downlevel some so that you can still get killed if you aren’t careful, but not so much as to erase any sense of progression. Most players want this level of down scaling based on posts I’ve seen made by players who prefer the two extremes.

tolunart.2095:

crimlet.9872:

The way it is now, level down system doesn’t truly put higher level players on an even field. They are more powerful than you are. You might as well throw away your kb/mouse in frustration. Leave the game. Or quite playing altogether. Because who wants to play with somebody there that is clearly more powerful that it’s like you being there doesn’t even tip any scales?

And yet for four years and counting millions of players have done just that. You have convinced yourself the game is broken, and we tend to see what we expect to see.

I’m not your enemy. I’ve tried to explain as best I can that the game was designed to work as it does, and that “more powerful” is a natural and expected result of the progression of skills and stats every toon develops as it levels up.

This is a game for casual players, not hardcores seeking a challenge. They’ve added some goals for advanced players like Ascended gear and raids, but these were added a considerable time after launch (three years later for raids), while the dynamic level adjustments were built into the game before launch.

It was always intended to work this way, and while you may not be the only one who doesn’t like it, the problem is not as clear or as severe as you seem to have convinced yourself it is. Thus, the problem exists in your own mind, not in the game. No other explanation is necessary or even possible.

This is incorrect. The DLA as explained prior to release always as in always always always portrayed it as putting higher level players onto an even level with the players around. And yes if this was the case that higher level players were truly leveled down to an even scale it would be great for everybody, and a great selling point for the game at release. My original plan was to play Tera. But when I saw all the info on GW2, I skipped Tera, and waited for GW2 to release because of features like this. Yes the concept is great. And if it actually did work as it was portrayed, it would be great.

However, it doesn’t work as portrayed. And higher level players are overpowered nonetheless. Not a very good compromise. And screws up the gameplay for players progressing through the game. Casual or not.

Randulf.7614:

crimlet.9872:

Gehenna.3625:

From my experience, which is limited, people are generally happy when a higher level comes help out with events, especially when there are champions.

So this could be a simple case of you being part of a minority so small that Anet will not change what is apparently working for most people.

Completely and utterly restating the question with no actual answer in sight.

What is your actual question though? Why ppl don’t find it a problem? That seems to be fairly obvious, but I’ll give it a stab.

At the moment, the downscaling isn’t causing an issue. It isn’t something being raised by new players on the forums and I can count on one hand how many threads I have seen in 4 years.

It wasn’t raised as an issue when Anet did their research on developing an NPE, regardless of how badly that NPE went down, it wasn’t something theat was felt needed changing.

Downscaling works because it keeps things relevant, but I feel you get that. Why doesn’t it completely level out a new player with a downscaled player? Because it simply isn’t logical to do so. No player will want to fully trade off all their traits, their progression completely, but the current system does level things out to an extent which keeps a fine balance between feeling like your character has progressed and also keeping the area relevant proportionatly.

GW2 isn’t the sort of game where most ppl feel the need to lvl with equal footing players. Even beyond 80, it is designed to take into account players at different progression levels and it makes sense to work that backwards with the downscaling.

This isn’t a skill based levelling experience, so a true equal footing is not needed or necessary.

This doesn’t answer the question at all, and completely misinterprets the question.

I will clarify. Downscaling does not work. The reason it doesn’t work is because players aren’t truly scaled down on even level. Even when downscaled, players are overpowered in relation to the level they are downscaled to. Hence, no point in even downscaling. Might as well just keep players at full capacity since nobody cares about real actual balance.

Which I described regarding the relationship between being too grindy, thereby not being fun because of being too tedious. VS being too easy, thereby not being fun because not actually getting to fully experience the content due to overpowered players.

crimlet.9872:

Pifil.5193:

This feature is working fine, the purpose is not to make higher level characters the exact same as actual level characters it’s too make sure that the higher levels don’t one shot everything so that they can go back to lower level areas. In my experience having higher level characters around doesn’t negatively impact my gameplay while leveling. They’re not so overpowered in this game that they dominate the events.

Glib. Again no actual real explanation as to the actual problem.

In turn you have offered no real proof that there is any problem. You don’t like it. That’s not a problem. That’s you assuming your own personal preference is the preferred or correct functionality. It’s not. The purpose of down leveling is to ensure that level 80 characters don’t just walk through lower level areas one-shoting everything. So that world bosses are still useful.

To put it another way, if you had Exotic armour and weapons on a level 30 character in a level 30 area then that character would be effectively identical to a down levelled level 80 in Exotic armour (apart from traits). That’s the intended functionality here.

crimlet.9872:

I will clarify. Downscaling does not work.

Wrong.

There’s nothing more to say.

that would be terrible though if going to a low level zone made you exactly the same as a low level character. that is a thing i hate a lot in various rpgs that use scaling (although its normally on enemies scaling to your level as opposed to the other way around) is that it basically feels like no matter what you do you are still as weak as you started, all that leveling and nothing got any better or easier (so basically what was the point).

downscaling as it works now where yes your stats get downscaled but your other gains are still in effect is good. things are not one shot easy but you still have that feeling of progress having been made since when you started.

crimlet.9872:

I would just like to know why in the years this game has been out, the vast majority of the population doesn’t seem to find this a major problem, and some don’t even consider it problem at all.

I don’t know if the following will answer this question, but fwiw here’s my experience.

1. When I played my first character through the game’s leveling content, I had a much harder time with mobs than with any other character (except the aforementioned Mesmer). One reason for this is that I used whatever gear I got as drops or from Heart vendors, most of which was a hodgepodge of ineffectiveness. Another is that the mobs have been nerfed (see number 3).
2. As I played more characters, and garnered enough in-game currency, I began reequipping every few levels, always choosing glass gear. When I do so, my experience is that the on-level character has been almost as effective as my level 80’s when in that zone. The difference is maybe one hit on a normal, two on a vet. I’ve even gotten lackadaisical with regard to reequipping with my last 2-3 characters, changing only after 10-15 levels rather than my earlier 6-8. The effectiveness level just does not seem to be all that impacted. On the rare occasions I’ve done the horrid daily event tasks with an on-level character, I never seem to have any trouble getting kill credit.
3. The core game’s mobs have been nerfed both directly (their numbers, usually their damage has been reduced) and indirectly (player traits and stats were changed in ways that made them more effective). As a result of both this and players learning to play better, there is little challenge in the leveling zones in the persistent world unless you are significantly outnumbered by the mobs. This is so regardless of whether one’s character is on-level or down-leveled. The problem is that if you’re with other players, it’s harder to get that outnumbered condition.
4. If your experience is different than the above, it would stand to reason that you are doing something differently than I am. What that would be, I’m not sure. It could be stat choice, trait choices, weapon choice or profession choice (leveling a Mesmer produced a much more difficult leveling experience for me until I got to level 40 or so).

In short, I believe that other players don’t mind because they’re not experiencing the same thing you are. It’s not that they don’t find being down-leveled easy, it’s that they don’t find being on-level to be harder enough that they notice. There’s also the possibility that — with the proliferation of level tomes — a lot of folks don’t bother to actually level anyway.

OP, what is your real issue with the downlevel system? There is no competition between players in PvE for grinding zones or for events or for heart quests. If you get even a single hit on a mob, you’ll typically get full exp from its death. You don’t get less exp for partying with a Lv80 vs a Lv40. Would you also consider it unfair to have a Lv60 in full rares in a Lv60 zone because most of the other Lv60s are in underleveled masterwork gear?

The downlevel system ensures that everyone is on roughly the same page without slapping them in the face for it (ie. Restricting traits and utilities). If you removed it, you’d have autoattacks doing tens of thousands of damage to mobs with 500 HP. Any problem you perceive now will be exponentially worse. The downlevel system does its job and does it well. Treat others in a zone with you exactly as they are: Friendly adventurers to help you complete events and quests, not competitors which you must best.