Guild Wars 2

dlonie.6547:

Vayne.8563:

dlonie.6547:

Vayne.8563:

Nope, what I’m arguing for is multiple paths to get rewards instead of rewards being locked into specific content, hard or otherwise, but particularly hard content that not everyone is going to do.

Oh look, you just solved your own problem. Now can you stop with the stance that “hard content must lead to exclusive rewards and disenfranchised players”?

If Anet continues the trend of making those rewards account bound than nothing is solved.

Even if they add:

Vayne.8563:

paths to get rewards instead of rewards being locked into specific content

?

I’m confused, is your point supposed to argue with me, or you?

I’m confused about what you’re confused about. In most of the new content, you have to do specific stuff to get specific account bound rewards. Surely you see this.

If they add this type of thing to raids, if that trend continues, more and more casual players WILL be disenfranchised.

I unlocked the luminescent armor set, but I didn’t have fun doing it. That’s my issue. There’s only so much not fun I’m willing to put up with before I find something more fun to do.

And they did that because of a bunch of threads a year or so ago complaining about the opposite. That the game lacked unique rewards.

I’m with ya though, I like the idea of everything being tradeable.

Don’t see how that has much to do with instanced content though. It’s a trend in all their content over the last few months (basically since season 2 of LS).

Jerus.4350:

And they did that because of a bunch of threads a year or so ago complaining about the opposite. That the game lacked unique rewards.

I’m with ya though, I like the idea of everything being tradeable.

Don’t see how that has much to do with instanced content though. It’s a trend in all their content over the last few months (basically since season 2 of LS).

I know. And so I’m doing stuff I’m not enjoying, which obviously affects the game for me. Enough of that, and I won’t be playing the game. I played Guild Wars 1 for a long time, because I could get what I wanted from just playing. Admittedly I’d have to just play for a very long time, but it was an option.

Here it’s becoming not an option.

Vayne.8563:

I’m confused about what you’re confused about.

I’ll spell it out:

Vayne.8563:

Nope, what I’m arguing for is multiple paths to get rewards instead of rewards being locked into specific content, hard or otherwise, but particularly hard content that not everyone is going to do.

dlonie.6547:

Oh look, you just solved your own problem. Now can you stop with the stance that “hard content must lead to exclusive rewards and disenfranchised players”?

Vayne.8563:

If Anet continues the trend of making those rewards account bound than nothing is solved.

You say “I want multiple paths to get rewards”, and then 3 minutes later say “Multiple paths aren’t enough if the rewards are account bound.”

Again, your issue is with account bound rewards, which is fine, but it is not a reason to not make instanced content:

1) Instanced content rewards can be things other than unique, soulbound gear.
2) If you’re going to petition the addition of content that has unique, soulbound rewards, you should be arguing against a lot more things in this game than just instanced content.

While I can understand both “sides” of the discussion (yea or nay), exclusion and so-called “elitism” is a people issue. Mitigating a people issue with a game-play solution is at best a work-around. It is at worst a fool’s errand.

One point the yea side has made that gets glossed over in the take-and-take (since no one is giving) is that the “hard” content in the persistent world is an organizational challenge, not so much a skill challenge. It is not yet a thing that developers can make content that welcomes the entire continuum of players at the same time, while presenting an extreme skill challenge for those who want one.

Picture this for a moment, if you will:

• Instanced content with difficulty settings; Extreme; Hard and Normal (or you can call it Hard, Normal and Easy if that floats your boat). Normal difficulty is tuned at around the level of the Mordrem. Hard goes up from there, and Extreme is meant to challenge the High and Very High ranges in the “skilled” distribution.
• Rewards are cosmetic. Whether they’re token or RNG based, they should not be quick to come by (though perhaps not so slow as Fractal Weapon skins). Players can get the rewards in any mode, but access (again, tokens or RNG) is better in the Hard and Extreme modes to balance out the fact that harder content is likely to take longer.

Advantages:

1. The content is accessible to any group that can participate in Silverwastes.
2. No one is excluded from rewards, but those pursuing challenge do no feel like Normal/Easy Mode is a better investment of time once rewards replace the “new/challenging” motivations — as inevitably happens in PvE.
3. Providing a greater variety of content, and providing content that appeals to many demographics, is good for the longevity of the game.

Disadvantages:

1. Would take developer resources to produce. True, though, of any content.
2. There would be players trying to enter the different modes whose play style is going to conflict with those at whom that difficulty is aimed. That happens now, though.
3. Those who cannot handle SW would be left out. Currently, such players are only behind the curve in SW and maybe DT now, but will maybe also have difficulty with HoT. That’s assuming that all of HoT will be at or higher than SW with regard to difficulty.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Disadvantages:

1. Would take developer resources to produce. True, though, of any content.
2. There would be players trying to enter the different modes whose play style is going to conflict with those at whom that difficulty is aimed. That happens now, though.
3. Those who cannot handle SW would be left out. Currently, such players are only behind the curve in SW and maybe DT now, but will maybe also have difficulty with HoT. That’s assuming that all of HoT will be at or higher than SW with regard to difficulty.

1. The scaling is there already. Be it the level scaling, numbers of player scaling or fractal scaling. I’m sure it wouldn’t be that hard to implement for anet with these things already in place.
2. That’s life. If you are lucky you get carried if not you fail / get kicked (if instanced with groups).
3. This could simply be changed by making “normal” or “easy” even easier and adding a even harder one.

Such a system would probably be the best but it seems that Instancephobia players accept nothing.

Indigo’s got it. We’ve been asking for a hard mode in dungeons for a while (well, not lately, since one of the few pieces of information that’s leaked out of the ArenaNet fortress is: “Hard mode is not an option”).

At the moment, there is a big problem with dungeons in that there are farmers/speedrunners that want fast, clean, predictable runs, and others that want to “experience” the dungeons at their own pace and explore, full clear, try out new builds, etc.

Adding a hard mode that required skilled play and high-end gear would let the more hardcore crowd separate themselves from those that want a more free-style dungeon run. This would go a long way towards solving the toxicity problems.

But alas, hard mode is not an option (If anyone wants the link, I’ll ping it, but CBA to look it up at the moment). My guess is that they think it would just split the player base, and instead they want to just shove all of us into mixed parties and say “Now hug and go have fun, kids!”.

Or something :P

Edit: link to Anet: hardmode is ‘off the table’.

Vayne.8563:

And you know, if you don’t get it, that’s okay. I’m sure some people do.

Vayne.8563:

I played Guild Wars 1 for a long time, because I could get what I wanted from just playing. Admittedly I’d have to just play for a very long time, but it was an option.

No you can save your patronizing, clearly I got it. You want the bland flavorless gray mush; nothing new or challenging but you still get the coolest stuff. You didn’t answer my question though: do you have a problem with all the exclusive gear from all the aspects of the game, or is there just something about dungeons that sets you off? Because if it’s all of it I then I don’t see why you’re so much more opposed to them making more dungeons. Dungeons and fractals are still a major part of this game and it’s not unreasonable to expect improvements to the existing ones and the release of new ones alongside new wvw, pvp, and open world content.

You should be saying “make everything tradeable” instead of “don’t make dungeons”, because unless you follow that up with “…or pvp modes, or wvw maps, or living story episodes, or special world bosses” you’re a hypocrite who just wants to edge out the part of the game you don’t like so nobody else will have new dungeons either.

James Quall.6029:

You should be saying “make everything tradeable” instead of “don’t make dungeons”, because unless you follow that up with “…or pvp modes, or wvw maps, or living story episodes, or special world bosses” you’re a hypocrite who just wants to edge out the part of the game you don’t like so nobody else will have new dungeons either.

This.

Vayne.8563:

James Quall.6029:

Vayne.8563:

This game I like. But if exclusive rewards, too many of them, are locked behind content I’m not enjoying, I can see myself walking away from here too.

One of the things I like about this game is that I can get most rewards doing most things. Not all, but most. I’d sort of hope that would stay the same.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Seriously you’re in shambles here and once again I can’t wrap my head around what it is you’re advocating. First you talk about how we don’t need instanced stuff because it’s possible to make challenging open world stuff, but then you talk about how anything challenging is bad for the community because if it’s hard then only a small amount of people will do it which would automatically create some kind of elitest superculture.

Then you complain that there are exclusive rewards from doing stuff that you might not want to do and that would make you quit. That’s INSANE because that’s how it has been since day 1 and it’s not just from dungeons! There is equipment that only comes from dungeons, equipment you can only get from spvp, a set of weapons that only comes from wvw during tournaments, gear that only comes from specific world bosses like Tequatl and the evolved jungle wurm, and luminescent armor requires that (among other things) you complete all the achievements of living story episodes. The entire philosophy of this game is that getting gear is easy, getting the impressive and cool looking gear (which is statistically not better in any way) takes some time and effort.

So is it just when it’s from instanced dungeons that you have an issue, or do you have a problem with all of those things? Cause to me it’s starting to sound like you want to turn this game into a bland flavorless gray mush where nothing is hard and you can get any item you want without trying anything new or challenging.

Look this isn’t really rocket science, but I’ll break it down for you. The most prestigious weapons in Guild Wars 1 could be bought for gold if you had enough gold. Tormented weapons, celestial compass, voltaic spear, all of them could be bought for gold. So if I didn’t want to run DOA (I beat it once and swore never again), then I could still access those rewards. So it didn’t particularly bother me.

Many of the rewards in Guild Wars 2 however are going account bound which means that I’d have to do content I might not enjoy to get rewards I want.

On TOP of that, there’s the issue of the community. In Guild Wars 1, I didn’t LIKE the community the grew up around DOA and UW. This build or get out is not my idea of fun, particularly in a game about builds. Again, because I had the option to buy most of those rewards, I didn’t have to deal with that kind of annoyance and I could enjoy the parts of the game I enjoyed.

So there is more than a one fold problem. You don’t understand what I’m saying because I’m replying to posts and not writing a term paper. Each post deals with a small piece of what I’m saying.

And you know, if you don’t get it, that’s okay. I’m sure some people do.

Lols so you want everything easywin from the content or P2W if you don’t like running said content.. ohh my giddy aunt… compelling argument for not having instanced content much.. I am crying here!

dlonie.6547:

Adding a hard mode that required skilled play and high-end gear would let the more hardcore crowd separate themselves from those that want a more free-style dungeon run. This would go a long way towards solving the toxicity problems.

BaHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAH HA HAHA HA HA no.

Not even remotely. It’d get much worse.

Sariel V.7024:

dlonie.6547:

Adding a hard mode that required skilled play and high-end gear would let the more hardcore crowd separate themselves from those that want a more free-style dungeon run. This would go a long way towards solving the toxicity problems.

BaHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAH HA HAHA HA HA no.

Not even remotely. It’d get much worse.

I don’t think you understand toxicity. While I don’t think there should be any “high-end” gear beyond Ascended, allowing us to segregate ourselves in different content would basically eliminate toxicity… unless someone decided to jump into the other set of content with the same expectations they had from the stuff they’re used to.

It’d divide the community, but it wouldn’t create more toxicity.

Follow the money. A significant % of the revenue for this game comes up-front. Hence, A-Net has very little incentive to keep people around past level 80. Rather, they need to bring in as many new players as possible.

Yes, there is the gem bank, but I don’t know how much $ people spend on that.

Sariel V.7024:

dlonie.6547:

Adding a hard mode that required skilled play and high-end gear would let the more hardcore crowd separate themselves from those that want a more free-style dungeon run. This would go a long way towards solving the toxicity problems.

BaHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAH HA HAHA HA HA no.

Not even remotely. It’d get much worse.

I’d be willing to discuss a substantive counter-argument if you could be bothered to put one together.

MigukNamja.1538:

Follow the money. A significant % of the revenue for this game comes up-front. Hence, A-Net has very little incentive to keep people around past level 80. Rather, they need to bring in as many new players as possible.

Yes, there is the gem bank, but I don’t know how much $ people spend on that.

I’ve spent over twice as much on the gemstore than I did on the game… if I had waited for a sale for the game… we’d be talking like 10X. And I know I’ve spent a fraction of what some people I know have spent.

Naw, I really think the gemstore is a pretty big part of their business.

Actually the sales themselves are kinda “proof” that the gemstore is their money maker. If it wasn’t would they really drop the price that substantially?

MigukNamja.1538:

Follow the money. A significant % of the revenue for this game comes up-front. Hence, A-Net has very little incentive to keep people around past level 80. Rather, they need to bring in as many new players as possible.

Yes, there is the gem bank, but I don’t know how much $ people spend on that.

They sell the game for $5 to $15 all the time. Also if people love the game it’s more likely they tell friends to buy it and that won’t happen if there is no content to play.

MigukNamja.1538:

Yes, there is the gem bank, but I don’t know how much $ people spend on that.

Well, this was posted today:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/387314/so_i_spent_5000_on_gw2_gems_last_week/

O.o

Vayne.8563:

Jerus.4350:

It can and does Vayne, but on the flip side, it can also strengthen a community.

It is all in the way the community handles it.

It’s when you have conflicting goals that you create a situation where the toxicity arises. That’s why I’ve seen more toxicity in Silverwastes than I have in any dungeon I’ve done. “kitten it south, you all suck!” is a pretty common response when they’re overloaded with people and fail. But… that’s easy content and you still have toxicity.

Instances can allow people to play with only those they want to, that’s a good thing imo.

In many games the best rewards are locked into instances. That means that people who want those rewards have to brave those instances. The people who are “good” at those games, band together and farm those instances. The other people try to get into groups, and that’s where the conflict starts.

Now, if you have say 20% of players who love hard content, 20% of the players will be satisfied with that situation . 80% will be broken into two groups. Those who never do it and those who do it grudgingly even though they don’t enjoy it.

Of the groups who don’t do it, that group will be broken up into two groups, those who don’t care about the rewards and those who are frustrated that they’ll never see them. So you have a potential to kitten off a much larger percentage of the player base than you’re helping.

On top of that, the hard content crowd almost always wants if not better, at least exclusive rewards.

So you end up with some people who are really happy and some who are disenfranchised. I’ll probably do the content and not enjoy it. Enough of that and I’ll stop enjoying the game, which is what happens in every other MMO I’ve played to do.

I do enough stuff for rewards I don’t enjoy, I think why am I playing this game to not enjoy it, and I walk away. Happened with Rift, WoW, Lotro, Aion and others.

This game I like. But if exclusive rewards, too many of them, are locked behind content I’m not enjoying, I can see myself walking away from here too.

One of the things I like about this game is that I can get most rewards doing most things. Not all, but most. I’d sort of hope that would stay the same.

Yeah .. call me to that bolded part. I never was that big fan of dungeons but did
them a lot, and even of other won’t believe it i was also really good in tanking
instances.
However i also noticed that i self often wanted to slap my friends if they didn’t
played as good as i expected .. because if i do such stuff i can also be very much
be a perfectionist and get angry if others are not.

So .. in the end about many other reasons its also that i want to avoid to be a kitten
when i simply avoid dungeons now totally ^^

So, you have a bad personality when you play dungeons, therefore they shouldn’t add more instanced content?

Do you think that maybe saying “Let them add new content for people who want it, but I won’t play it because I don’t like what it does to me” might be a more mature way to deal with it?

dlonie.6547:

So, you have a bad personality when you play dungeons, therefore they shouldn’t add more instanced content?

Do you think that maybe saying “Let them add new content for people who want it, but I won’t play it because I don’t like what it does to me” might be a more mature way to deal with it?

Such crazy talk. If it doesn’t fit one’s personal preferences it simply shouldn’t be done. Simple as that.

Now time to play something I enjoy!

Vayne.8563:

You need to read my argument again. I didn’t say BIS gear. I said rewards. Let’s pretend Anet puts the coolest mini or coolest tonic in a raid. It’s possible. A cool outfit. A cool skin. Now, if there becomes enough of those things that people can’t get, people will feel disenfranchised. That situation doesn’t exist now..

You mean like the Liadri mini.

dlonie.6547:

Vayne.8563:

I’m confused about what you’re confused about.

I’ll spell it out:

Vayne.8563:

Nope, what I’m arguing for is multiple paths to get rewards instead of rewards being locked into specific content, hard or otherwise, but particularly hard content that not everyone is going to do.

dlonie.6547:

Oh look, you just solved your own problem. Now can you stop with the stance that “hard content must lead to exclusive rewards and disenfranchised players”?

Vayne.8563:

If Anet continues the trend of making those rewards account bound than nothing is solved.

You say “I want multiple paths to get rewards”, and then 3 minutes later say “Multiple paths aren’t enough if the rewards are account bound.”

Again, your issue is with account bound rewards, which is fine, but it is not a reason to not make instanced content:

1) Instanced content rewards can be things other than unique, soulbound gear.
2) If you’re going to petition the addition of content that has unique, soulbound rewards, you should be arguing against a lot more things in this game than just instanced content.

Never said that. If I have multiple paths to rewards then it doesn’t matter that it’s account bound but look at what’s been going on lately.

We have single paths to account bound rewards and that’s my problem. Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

If there are multiple paths to get the rewards from something like a raid, OR if you can sell the rewards from raids, most of my (not all of my) problems are solved.

But seeing how rewards are being offered recently I don’t see this happening, so my problem persists.

Jerus.4350:

dlonie.6547:

So, you have a bad personality when you play dungeons, therefore they shouldn’t add more instanced content?

Do you think that maybe saying “Let them add new content for people who want it, but I won’t play it because I don’t like what it does to me” might be a more mature way to deal with it?

Such crazy talk. If it doesn’t fit one’s personal preferences it simply shouldn’t be done. Simple as that.

Now time to play something I enjoy!

Whiteside server #1 NA PvE \o/

I hear ya Vayne, that’s a valid concern, but:

James Quall.6029:

You should be saying “make everything tradeable” instead of “don’t make dungeons”, because unless you follow that up with “…or pvp modes, or wvw maps, or living story episodes, or special world bosses” you’re a hypocrite who just wants to edge out the part of the game you don’t like so nobody else will have new dungeons either.

still this^

Bloodstealer.5978:

Vayne.8563:

James Quall.6029:

Vayne.8563:

This game I like. But if exclusive rewards, too many of them, are locked behind content I’m not enjoying, I can see myself walking away from here too.

One of the things I like about this game is that I can get most rewards doing most things. Not all, but most. I’d sort of hope that would stay the same.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Seriously you’re in shambles here and once again I can’t wrap my head around what it is you’re advocating. First you talk about how we don’t need instanced stuff because it’s possible to make challenging open world stuff, but then you talk about how anything challenging is bad for the community because if it’s hard then only a small amount of people will do it which would automatically create some kind of elitest superculture.

Then you complain that there are exclusive rewards from doing stuff that you might not want to do and that would make you quit. That’s INSANE because that’s how it has been since day 1 and it’s not just from dungeons! There is equipment that only comes from dungeons, equipment you can only get from spvp, a set of weapons that only comes from wvw during tournaments, gear that only comes from specific world bosses like Tequatl and the evolved jungle wurm, and luminescent armor requires that (among other things) you complete all the achievements of living story episodes. The entire philosophy of this game is that getting gear is easy, getting the impressive and cool looking gear (which is statistically not better in any way) takes some time and effort.

So is it just when it’s from instanced dungeons that you have an issue, or do you have a problem with all of those things? Cause to me it’s starting to sound like you want to turn this game into a bland flavorless gray mush where nothing is hard and you can get any item you want without trying anything new or challenging.

Look this isn’t really rocket science, but I’ll break it down for you. The most prestigious weapons in Guild Wars 1 could be bought for gold if you had enough gold. Tormented weapons, celestial compass, voltaic spear, all of them could be bought for gold. So if I didn’t want to run DOA (I beat it once and swore never again), then I could still access those rewards. So it didn’t particularly bother me.

Many of the rewards in Guild Wars 2 however are going account bound which means that I’d have to do content I might not enjoy to get rewards I want.

On TOP of that, there’s the issue of the community. In Guild Wars 1, I didn’t LIKE the community the grew up around DOA and UW. This build or get out is not my idea of fun, particularly in a game about builds. Again, because I had the option to buy most of those rewards, I didn’t have to deal with that kind of annoyance and I could enjoy the parts of the game I enjoyed.

So there is more than a one fold problem. You don’t understand what I’m saying because I’m replying to posts and not writing a term paper. Each post deals with a small piece of what I’m saying.

And you know, if you don’t get it, that’s okay. I’m sure some people do.

Lols so you want everything easywin from the content or P2W if you don’t like running said content.. ohh my giddy aunt… compelling argument for not having instanced content much.. I am crying here!

It is a compelling argument if it’s going to affect the bottom line of the game and it might. You seem to be laboring under the assumption that I’m just talking for me and about me. No. I’m talking about a certain type of player that exists in these games in massive numbers. I’m pretty sure there are more people who play the game who want different channels to get to rewards than there are people who want hard content with excluive rewards.

Your argument is I want everything with no work. My argument is you want the game to fail, because you’re advocating something that a minority of the playerbase wants at the expense of what I believe to be the majority.

You laugh at me because you think that I want stuff easily. I’m amazed that you think that a business can survive on supporting the minority and ignoring the majority.

Fenrir.3609:

Vayne.8563:

You need to read my argument again. I didn’t say BIS gear. I said rewards. Let’s pretend Anet puts the coolest mini or coolest tonic in a raid. It’s possible. A cool outfit. A cool skin. Now, if there becomes enough of those things that people can’t get, people will feel disenfranchised. That situation doesn’t exist now..

You mean like the Liadri mini.

Yep, kittenes me off no end, because with the latency I have in Tasmania, it’s quite a bit harder to get the Liadri mini than it would be if I were stateside. That’s pretty much the only challenge in the game I haven’t managed….but I haven’t tried that hard. When you die in that fight and you’re no where near the black area that’s killed you on your screen, you pretty much know it’s not worth your time.

dlonie.6547:

I hear ya Vayne, that’s a valid concern, but:

James Quall.6029:

You should be saying “make everything tradeable” instead of “don’t make dungeons”, because unless you follow that up with “…or pvp modes, or wvw maps, or living story episodes, or special world bosses” you’re a hypocrite who just wants to edge out the part of the game you don’t like so nobody else will have new dungeons either.

still this^

And I’d be saying it, if this is what Anet had been doing but it hasn’t. So I don’t want raids if the reward structure doesn’t change, because I don’t suspect it will change.

If everything was tradeable I’d have a lot less issues. But I think it’s more likely we won’t get instanced raids than Anet will change their loot policies of recent months.

Fenrir.3609:

“The game will shut if we add a few challenging instances!!”.

But it’ll NEVER be a few challenging instances. Ever. It’ll be give me one. Then you want one more. Then you want something harder. Than you want something exclusive, than you want better rewards because it’s harder.

The hard core community is a very very loud part of the playerbase. They always have been. That doesn’t mean, necessarily, that they’re a very big percentage of the player base.

So they push and push and push and they get a bit more and a bit more and a bit more. And that means the casuals get a bit less and a bit less and a bit less, until the casuals end up leaving. After which, the game can cl;ose or scale back operations because I don’t believe the game can exist without the casual base.

You guys will get a couple of hard instances, work them out, find them easy and you’ll want more hard instances. That’s how it works. It’ll be a never ending fight for resources.

Games should focus on what makes them strong. Trying to please everyone leaves no one pleased.

Vayne.8563:

Yep, kittenes me off no end, because with the latency I have in Tasmania, it’s quite a bit harder to get the Liadri mini than it would be if I were stateside. That’s pretty much the only challenge in the game I haven’t managed….but I haven’t tried that hard. When you die in that fight and you’re no where near the black area that’s killed you on your screen, you pretty much know it’s not worth your time.

So there is a precedent for it in the game and oddly enough I don’t see it causing the game to fold.

Adding in some challenging instanced pve (which will comprise of a tiny fraction of the games content) is not suddenly going to see the playerbase collapse and the game shut down.

Trying to please everyone leaves no one pleased.

Perhaps they should have thought about that before making a game with open world and instanced pve, with spvp and wvwvw.

Fenrir.3609:

Vayne.8563:

Yep, kittenes me off no end, because with the latency I have in Tasmania, it’s quite a bit harder to get the Liadri mini than it would be if I were stateside. That’s pretty much the only challenge in the game I haven’t managed….but I haven’t tried that hard. When you die in that fight and you’re no where near the black area that’s killed you on your screen, you pretty much know it’s not worth your time.

So there is a precedent for it in the game and oddly enough I don’t see it causing the game to fold.

Adding in some challenging instanced pve (which will comprise of a tiny fraction of the games content) is not suddenly going to see the playerbase collapse and the game shut down.

One reward doesn’t cause the game to fold. Two rewards doesn’t, but you know, everyone has a limit and everyone’s limit is different. I’m okay with not having a couple of rewards I’m never going to see. But the more those rewards increase, the more I start thinking a game isn’t for me. If I’m realistically not getting rewards more and more often, I’m realistically going to be frustrated more and more often. At which point it’s easier and easier to walk away from a game.

I already have people I know who have walked away from this game because of the way the rewards are. Because it’s too much WORK for them to do all the achievements for the Living Story and there’s no other way to get luminscent armor. There’s a llama mini some people are never going to get that some people really want. There’s the fractal tonic which I’m pretty sure I’ll never have.

It’s only a handful now. But as that handful grows, more and more people WILL become dissatisfied and no one really can say how big that group will end up.

Or you know, it might just be a very small amount now and then ages (if ever) before any future additions.

The “sky is falling” idea that we will get tons of challenging instanced pve content and thus all the casuals will disappear is somewhat far fetched.

Vayne.8563:

dlonie.6547:

I hear ya Vayne, that’s a valid concern, but:

James Quall.6029:

You should be saying “make everything tradeable” instead of “don’t make dungeons”, because unless you follow that up with “…or pvp modes, or wvw maps, or living story episodes, or special world bosses” you’re a hypocrite who just wants to edge out the part of the game you don’t like so nobody else will have new dungeons either.

still this^

And I’d be saying it, if this is what Anet had been doing but it hasn’t. So I don’t want raids if the reward structure doesn’t change, because I don’t suspect it will change.

If everything was tradeable I’d have a lot less issues. But I think it’s more likely we won’t get instanced raids than Anet will change their loot policies of recent months.

Are you kittening serious?

You are basically admitting that you have no problem with raid content if the rewards are balanced properly. So why are you still saying no and just assuming the rewards are going to be kittened?

Im pretty sure anet is more interested in what would make Raids popular for other players. Rather than simple rejection with no relevant reasons. So why dont you just give them the feedback they want. “I want/am ok with challenging content so long as the rewards are tradeable”. There you go. Is that really so hard to admit?

Making baseless assumptions to justify the rejection of content is beyond selfish and absurd.

i wish we never get raids. Maps like Silver Waste are really entertaining, and everybody can participate until the map is full.
No need for raid with people writing Exp only, 15k ap, or some other kitten.
Making the boss harder to kill yes, but this game is nothing for raids.

You know it is fun to come on a map and being able to follow people doing some big event. Raid ? no

lets’s look for some other revolutionary idea

Vayne.8563:

I already have people I know who have walked away from this game because of the way the rewards are. Because it’s too much WORK for them to do all the achievements for the Living Story and there’s no other way to get luminscent armor.

If all armor now ends like that .. or quite a lot .. that will also maybe kill quite some
fun for me. Was bad enough that we only got Carapace as only new set (beside the
PvP set) in the last year .. and i still haven’t grinded out all the bandit crests.

Fenrir.3609:

Or you know, it might just be a very small amount now and then ages (if ever) before any future additions.

The “sky is falling” idea that we will get tons of challenging instanced pve content and thus all the casuals will disappear is somewhat far fetched.

If it’s a very small amount now, what makes you think the hard core crowd is going to be satisfied. I see two pretty much mutually exclusive events.

Either there’s enough hard core content to satisify the hard core crowd for a period of time, which means there’s the rewards problem I fear, or the hard core crowd gets some token hard content and doesn’t really stop complaining anyway.

Not sure why you think that getting a tiny bit of content is going to stop the complaints, or even hard core people from walking away.

Vayne.8563:

Fenrir.3609:

“The game will shut if we add a few challenging instances!!”.

But it’ll NEVER be a few challenging instances. Ever. It’ll be give me one. Then you want one more. Then you want something harder. Than you want something exclusive, than you want better rewards because it’s harder.

The hard core community is a very very loud part of the playerbase. They always have been. That doesn’t mean, necessarily, that they’re a very big percentage of the player base.

So they push and push and push and they get a bit more and a bit more and a bit more. And that means the casuals get a bit less and a bit less and a bit less, until the casuals end up leaving. After which, the game can cl;ose or scale back operations because I don’t believe the game can exist without the casual base.

You guys will get a couple of hard instances, work them out, find them easy and you’ll want more hard instances. That’s how it works. It’ll be a never ending fight for resources.

Games should focus on what makes them strong. Trying to please everyone leaves no one pleased.

Yup, we will want more. Just like PVPers want more maps/styles. Just like WvWers want more maps and tweaking to the rules in an attempt to perfect it. Just like Open Worlders want new zones and content.

Thing is challenging content lasts quite a while, people are still playing the dungeons from the original game for christs sake.

But, doing some instanced content doesn’t mean suddenly everything is gone. And it shouldn’t mean you can’t satisfy other areas.

Vayne.8563:

If it’s a very small amount now, what makes you think the hard core crowd is going to be satisfied. I see two pretty much mutually exclusive events.

Either there’s enough hard core content to satisify the hard core crowd for a period of time, which means there’s the rewards problem I fear, or the hard core crowd gets some token hard content and doesn’t really stop complaining anyway.

Not sure why you think that getting a tiny bit of content is going to stop the complaints, or even hard core people from walking away.

“The hardcore crowd might still moan, so let’s not bother adding anything at all”.

Yeah nice one.

Vayne.8563:

dlonie.6547:

I hear ya Vayne, that’s a valid concern, but:

James Quall.6029:

You should be saying “make everything tradeable” instead of “don’t make dungeons”, because unless you follow that up with “…or pvp modes, or wvw maps, or living story episodes, or special world bosses” you’re a hypocrite who just wants to edge out the part of the game you don’t like so nobody else will have new dungeons either.

still this^

And I’d be saying it, if this is what Anet had been doing but it hasn’t. So I don’t want raids if the reward structure doesn’t change, because I don’t suspect it will change.

If everything was tradeable I’d have a lot less issues. But I think it’s more likely we won’t get instanced raids than Anet will change their loot policies of recent months.

So you why aren’t you protesting stronghold, PvP, LS, etc etc? Why just instanced content?

You really think including a few dungeons with HoT would kill the game? You think that would be “catering” to a minority, by adding a few things for hardcore players alongside a ton of casual content? You’re not making any sense.

dlonie.6547:

Vayne.8563:

dlonie.6547:

I hear ya Vayne, that’s a valid concern, but:

James Quall.6029:

You should be saying “make everything tradeable” instead of “don’t make dungeons”, because unless you follow that up with “…or pvp modes, or wvw maps, or living story episodes, or special world bosses” you’re a hypocrite who just wants to edge out the part of the game you don’t like so nobody else will have new dungeons either.

still this^

And I’d be saying it, if this is what Anet had been doing but it hasn’t. So I don’t want raids if the reward structure doesn’t change, because I don’t suspect it will change.

If everything was tradeable I’d have a lot less issues. But I think it’s more likely we won’t get instanced raids than Anet will change their loot policies of recent months.

So you why aren’t you protesting stronghold, PvP, LS, etc etc? Why just instanced content?

You really think including a few dungeons with HoT would kill the game? You think that would be “catering” to a minority, by adding a few things for hardcore players alongside a ton of casual content? You’re not making any sense.

I think a few dungeons in hot would be wasted, but you know, it’s not my decision. If Anet puts them in, we’ll see what happens. I guarantee you I have no clout with Anet. They don’t listen to me anyway, so what’s the difference what I say.

I’m saying I don’t think ENOUGH instanced hard content will be added to make a difference either way. I think that the hard content that will be added isn’t instanced. If I’m right, and I might not be, then it’s too late to add those instances, because if they’re not in now, they’re not going to be in.

We’re actually arguing about a decision Anet has already made.

dlonie.6547:

Vayne.8563:

dlonie.6547:

I hear ya Vayne, that’s a valid concern, but:

James Quall.6029:

You should be saying “make everything tradeable” instead of “don’t make dungeons”, because unless you follow that up with “…or pvp modes, or wvw maps, or living story episodes, or special world bosses” you’re a hypocrite who just wants to edge out the part of the game you don’t like so nobody else will have new dungeons either.

still this^

And I’d be saying it, if this is what Anet had been doing but it hasn’t. So I don’t want raids if the reward structure doesn’t change, because I don’t suspect it will change.

If everything was tradeable I’d have a lot less issues. But I think it’s more likely we won’t get instanced raids than Anet will change their loot policies of recent months.

So you why aren’t you protesting stronghold, PvP, LS, etc etc? Why just instanced content?

You really think including a few dungeons with HoT would kill the game? You think that would be “catering” to a minority, by adding a few things for hardcore players alongside a ton of casual content? You’re not making any sense.

I’m not “protesting” anything. I’m responding to a thread that has comments in it, and expressing my point of view. I don’t frequent the PvP sub forum and so I don’t see those threads, or I’d probably respond to them.

At any rate, I’m going to bed. Have fun.

Vayne.8563:

dlonie.6547:

Vayne.8563:

dlonie.6547:

I hear ya Vayne, that’s a valid concern, but:

James Quall.6029:

You should be saying “make everything tradeable” instead of “don’t make dungeons”, because unless you follow that up with “…or pvp modes, or wvw maps, or living story episodes, or special world bosses” you’re a hypocrite who just wants to edge out the part of the game you don’t like so nobody else will have new dungeons either.

still this^

And I’d be saying it, if this is what Anet had been doing but it hasn’t. So I don’t want raids if the reward structure doesn’t change, because I don’t suspect it will change.

If everything was tradeable I’d have a lot less issues. But I think it’s more likely we won’t get instanced raids than Anet will change their loot policies of recent months.

So you why aren’t you protesting stronghold, PvP, LS, etc etc? Why just instanced content?

You really think including a few dungeons with HoT would kill the game? You think that would be “catering” to a minority, by adding a few things for hardcore players alongside a ton of casual content? You’re not making any sense.

I think a few dungeons in hot would be wasted, but you know, it’s not my decision. If Anet puts them in, we’ll see what happens. I guarantee you I have no clout with Anet. They don’t listen to me anyway, so what’s the difference what I say.

I’m saying I don’t think ENOUGH instanced hard content will be added to make a difference either way. I think that the hard content that will be added isn’t instanced. If I’m right, and I might not be, then it’s too late to add those instances, because if they’re not in now, they’re not going to be in.

We’re actually arguing about a decision Anet has already made.

Yet they are adding just a SINGLE new map for sPVP, why not add a SINGLE new dungeon as well?

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

dlonie.6547:

Vayne.8563:

dlonie.6547:

I hear ya Vayne, that’s a valid concern, but:

James Quall.6029:

You should be saying “make everything tradeable” instead of “don’t make dungeons”, because unless you follow that up with “…or pvp modes, or wvw maps, or living story episodes, or special world bosses” you’re a hypocrite who just wants to edge out the part of the game you don’t like so nobody else will have new dungeons either.

still this^

And I’d be saying it, if this is what Anet had been doing but it hasn’t. So I don’t want raids if the reward structure doesn’t change, because I don’t suspect it will change.

If everything was tradeable I’d have a lot less issues. But I think it’s more likely we won’t get instanced raids than Anet will change their loot policies of recent months.

So you why aren’t you protesting stronghold, PvP, LS, etc etc? Why just instanced content?

You really think including a few dungeons with HoT would kill the game? You think that would be “catering” to a minority, by adding a few things for hardcore players alongside a ton of casual content? You’re not making any sense.

I think a few dungeons in hot would be wasted, but you know, it’s not my decision. If Anet puts them in, we’ll see what happens. I guarantee you I have no clout with Anet. They don’t listen to me anyway, so what’s the difference what I say.

I’m saying I don’t think ENOUGH instanced hard content will be added to make a difference either way. I think that the hard content that will be added isn’t instanced. If I’m right, and I might not be, then it’s too late to add those instances, because if they’re not in now, they’re not going to be in.

We’re actually arguing about a decision Anet has already made.

Yet they are adding just a SINGLE new map for sPVP, why not add a SINGLE new dungeon as well?

They’re adding more than a new map. They’re adding a new game type, which is considerably different. But let’s say that Anet does add a single new dungeon and lets say that dungeon is received as well as the last dungeon they added. Would you consider that efficient use of resources?

So, safe to say that you’re just looking at this from the most pessimistic viewpoint assuming the worst in every scenario Vayne?

Vayne.8563:

dlonie.6547:

Vayne.8563:

dlonie.6547:

I hear ya Vayne, that’s a valid concern, but:

James Quall.6029:

You should be saying “make everything tradeable” instead of “don’t make dungeons”, because unless you follow that up with “…or pvp modes, or wvw maps, or living story episodes, or special world bosses” you’re a hypocrite who just wants to edge out the part of the game you don’t like so nobody else will have new dungeons either.

still this^

And I’d be saying it, if this is what Anet had been doing but it hasn’t. So I don’t want raids if the reward structure doesn’t change, because I don’t suspect it will change.

If everything was tradeable I’d have a lot less issues. But I think it’s more likely we won’t get instanced raids than Anet will change their loot policies of recent months.

So you why aren’t you protesting stronghold, PvP, LS, etc etc? Why just instanced content?

You really think including a few dungeons with HoT would kill the game? You think that would be “catering” to a minority, by adding a few things for hardcore players alongside a ton of casual content? You’re not making any sense.

I think a few dungeons in hot would be wasted, but you know, it’s not my decision. If Anet puts them in, we’ll see what happens. I guarantee you I have no clout with Anet. They don’t listen to me anyway, so what’s the difference what I say.

I’m saying I don’t think ENOUGH instanced hard content will be added to make a difference either way. I think that the hard content that will be added isn’t instanced. If I’m right, and I might not be, then it’s too late to add those instances, because if they’re not in now, they’re not going to be in.

Heh, I’ll agree with you there. After the last three years, they’d have a lot of catching up to do if they wanted their challenging content to be in a good place. I also expect the “Challenging Group Content” to be more open world zergfests.

Which honestly, if we’re going to go on past actions as you have with reward decisions, these won’t actually be challenging either. They’ll be watered down bosses set up so AFK’r can be carried and we’ll all be stuck with toxic trolls and tryhards in our maps making the experience bad, with no tools to get rid of them.

We’re actually arguing about a decision Anet has already made.

You know my feeling on that. I wish they’d just tell us in broad strokes what the content they have in mind is so we could provide feedback, but that’s not how this company works. They’re going to reveal what we’re going to get when they’re ready, and if it’s not popular, too bad. Now, if they said “we’re adding raids and this is how we’re thinking of doing it”, you would have a chance to bring up your valid loot concerns. But that’s not how it works here :-(

Vayne.8563:

I’m not “protesting” anything. I’m responding to a thread that has comments in it, and expressing my point of view. I don’t frequent the PvP sub forum and so I don’t see those threads, or I’d probably respond to them.

I’d consider saying “Don’t add this content” to be protesting it, I’m not sure how it could be taken any other way. And the reason we’re annoyed with you is that your actual complaint isn’t related to instanced content, it’s related to reward structure. Further, the existing rewards for dungeons are available through multiple paths (tokens / PvP), so even that argument doesn’t really pan out.

At any rate, I’m going to bed. Have fun.

G’night.

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

dlonie.6547:

Vayne.8563:

dlonie.6547:

I hear ya Vayne, that’s a valid concern, but:

James Quall.6029:

You should be saying “make everything tradeable” instead of “don’t make dungeons”, because unless you follow that up with “…or pvp modes, or wvw maps, or living story episodes, or special world bosses” you’re a hypocrite who just wants to edge out the part of the game you don’t like so nobody else will have new dungeons either.

still this^

And I’d be saying it, if this is what Anet had been doing but it hasn’t. So I don’t want raids if the reward structure doesn’t change, because I don’t suspect it will change.

If everything was tradeable I’d have a lot less issues. But I think it’s more likely we won’t get instanced raids than Anet will change their loot policies of recent months.

So you why aren’t you protesting stronghold, PvP, LS, etc etc? Why just instanced content?

You really think including a few dungeons with HoT would kill the game? You think that would be “catering” to a minority, by adding a few things for hardcore players alongside a ton of casual content? You’re not making any sense.

I think a few dungeons in hot would be wasted, but you know, it’s not my decision. If Anet puts them in, we’ll see what happens. I guarantee you I have no clout with Anet. They don’t listen to me anyway, so what’s the difference what I say.

I’m saying I don’t think ENOUGH instanced hard content will be added to make a difference either way. I think that the hard content that will be added isn’t instanced. If I’m right, and I might not be, then it’s too late to add those instances, because if they’re not in now, they’re not going to be in.

We’re actually arguing about a decision Anet has already made.

Yet they are adding just a SINGLE new map for sPVP, why not add a SINGLE new dungeon as well?

They’re adding more than a new map. They’re adding a new game type, which is considerably different. But let’s say that Anet does add a single new dungeon and lets say that dungeon is received as well as the last dungeon they added. Would you consider that efficient use of resources?

IF that new dungeon is like a new gametype (“Challenging content”) then yes it’s as efficient use of resources as is adding Stronghold. This “new” dungeon has to be somewhat different from the others, for example when they added Fractals compared to the old dungeons it was a very good addition.

dlonie.6547:

I’d consider saying “Don’t add this content” to be protesting it, I’m not sure how it could be taken any other way. And the reason we’re annoyed with you is that your actual complaint isn’t related to instanced content, it’s related to reward structure. Further, the existing rewards for dungeons are available through multiple paths (tokens / PvP), so even that argument doesn’t really pan out.

Unfortunately, in MMO’s, it’s very hard to separate the idea of new content from the rewards that will accompany it. You’re part of a demographic that’s already demonstrated the willingness to repeat the existing dungeons because they’re the only hardish content in the PvE game. While there seem to be quite a few people who still do some dungeons, how many still do the hard paths versus how many hit the “best return” easier paths only? How many skip trash because they aren’t worth fighting versus skip them because the bosses are easier?

I agree that it would be better to get an agreement-in-principle with ANet on the creation of hard content, then hash out details. However, many people are not going to be able to separate their reactions to the idea from their reactions to what rewards they think players would demand and how ANet would interpret that. That’s why my proposal from earlier tried to find a way to please both sides.

Vayne, I believe, is taking a more cynical tack than I am, because he believes that ANet will not change its stripes. Given their history since, "But what if … your content-design motivations aren’t driven by creating mechanics to keep people playing as long as possible? " hit reality, I have to struggle to view anything ANet does with anything other than cynicism.

I skip trash because I find killing it generally pretty boring. While Illusionists have a good chance of killing you in the general approach in how we kill them, we could do better, it’s just that ignoring everything but the chaos storm and bursting them with damage is simply better.

As for rewards, there are plenty of ways to do it and motivate people. Allowing us to sell the rewards would solve Vayne’s issue with it.

Vayne.8563:

Bloodstealer.5978:

Lols so you want everything easywin from the content or P2W if you don’t like running said content.. ohh my giddy aunt… compelling argument for not having instanced content much.. I am crying here!

It is a compelling argument if it’s going to affect the bottom line of the game and it might. You seem to be laboring under the assumption that I’m just talking for me and about me. No. I’m talking about a certain type of player that exists in these games in massive numbers. I’m pretty sure there are more people who play the game who want different channels to get to rewards than there are people who want hard content with excluive rewards.

Your argument is I want everything with no work. My argument is you want the game to fail, because you’re advocating something that a minority of the playerbase wants at the expense of what I believe to be the majority.

You laugh at me because you think that I want stuff easily. I’m amazed that you think that a business can survive on supporting the minority and ignoring the majority.

Rubbish, and you know it !! – Everything you said was based on what YOU like or don’t like, what you find disenfranchising not this apparent majority .. btw please supply proof of this if you can because most of what I see, read and hear is of the desire to have more things to do, more meaningful and challenging content (whether it be instanced or openworld) which offers a far greater replay value.. that does not come from giving players like you the opportunity to bypass it and go straight to the gem store and buy it. Its that kind of tripe that ruins any decent MMO imo.
In fact I would not to unhappy with the occasional gear creep and it will likely always happen from time to time, but unlike the many other MMO’s that creep doesn’t need to be gigantic step ups just wee weeny ones and thus far ANET have done a pretty decent job of controlling that aspect.
Further to this some level of exclusive rewards is often a vital component in keeping MMO’s alive while new content is being planned developed tested and patched in.. I am glad it can’t be churned out in a day, loaded up the next and bought by you soon after, but that often dictates the need to include some low hanging fruits but with the occasional carrot dangling with a sharp hook sticking through it to help maintain some level of login consistency. That in no way means that instanced content must have exclusive rewards gated behind it, but sometimes it might just like we have in some of those “epic dynamic events” we currently have in our openworld zergfest.

Bloodstealer.5978:

Vayne.8563:

Bloodstealer.5978:

Lols so you want everything easywin from the content or P2W if you don’t like running said content.. ohh my giddy aunt… compelling argument for not having instanced content much.. I am crying here!

It is a compelling argument if it’s going to affect the bottom line of the game and it might. You seem to be laboring under the assumption that I’m just talking for me and about me. No. I’m talking about a certain type of player that exists in these games in massive numbers. I’m pretty sure there are more people who play the game who want different channels to get to rewards than there are people who want hard content with excluive rewards.

Your argument is I want everything with no work. My argument is you want the game to fail, because you’re advocating something that a minority of the playerbase wants at the expense of what I believe to be the majority.

You laugh at me because you think that I want stuff easily. I’m amazed that you think that a business can survive on supporting the minority and ignoring the majority.

Rubbish, and you know it !! – Everything you said was based on what YOU like or don’t like, what you find disenfranchising not this apparent majority .. btw please supply proof of this if you can because most of what I see, read and hear is of the desire to have more things to do, more meaningful and challenging content (whether it be instanced or openworld) which offers a far greater replay value.. that does not come from giving players like you the opportunity to bypass it and go straight to the gem store and buy it. Its that kind of tripe that ruins any decent MMO imo.
In fact I would not to unhappy with the occasional gear creep and it will likely always happen from time to time, but unlike the many other MMO’s that creep doesn’t need to be gigantic step ups just wee weeny ones and thus far ANET have done a pretty decent job of controlling that aspect.
Further to this some level of exclusive rewards is often a vital component in keeping MMO’s alive while new content is being planned developed tested and patched in.. I am glad it can’t be churned out in a day, loaded up the next and bought by you soon after, but that often dictates the need to include some low hanging fruits but with the occasional carrot dangling with a sharp hook sticking through it to help maintain some level of login consistency. That in no way means that instanced content must have exclusive rewards gated behind it, but sometimes it might just like we have in some of those “epic dynamic events” we currently have in our openworld zergfest.

Right it’s based on what I don’t like. Obviously no other group of people could possibly have the same likes or dislikes as me. or the same interests. Obviously I’m not in a guild was a couple of hundred people, many of whom I speak to each week. Obviously I have no power of observation and can’t draw conclusions from what I’ve seen and heard.

Yes, there are people out there frustrated by the fact that they have to do specific content that they don’t like to get rewards they really want. I know this because some of them have actually posted threads about it. They’re usually shot down pretty fast, but stuff has been posted.

And more than that I’ve seen people talking in map chat about stuff, heard people in guild talk about stuff like that, and yes, some people are frustrated. Now that’s not to say they’re leaving, or threatening to leave, but you know, I don’t have to see someone get hit by a car to know that if cars are driving too fast, it’s likely going to happen at some point.

The direction of the game, reward-wise is moving in a way that some people are definitely asking for and some people are definitely disenfranchised by. Not just me.

Now if you have evidence that no one else feels like this, or about numbers, I’d sure be glad to listen. I don’t know how big my group is. What I do believe is the people who want challenging content tend to be a fringe group.

Here’s the thing: what some may call ‘challenging’ others will call easy, and some others will call impossible.

This will be like this for every single piece of content they do, from the starting areas to the Tribulation mode.