Guild Wars 2

Are new Collaborative Development threads starting today, and if so what are they?

I couldn’t find this information anywhere.

Not all of the previous ones have ended, and I believe there will be another review-and-improvement thread before another wave.

The new one after Living Story is/was WvW Commander functions and you can find it in the WvW sub-forum. That one started last week. Other than that, there are no new ones since inception.

Woohoo ,finally the topic where I want see some major improvements in and where I think, that the game could improve alot.

Its a very complex topic, cause it contains so many things to sub categorize.
It is something, that goes through many bigger and tinier mechanics of the whole game.

Beginning first from splitting up things between direct progression and indirect progression, not just only horizontal and vertical progression.

Whats the difference? Direct Progression is everything, that involves directly our characters. Things like:

- Skills
- Traits
- Weapons/ Equipment
- Other Forms of direct Character Progression like

• Sub Classes (where I despereately want to hear, whats Anets plans on this kind of improving the game, now after the whole year of constant Gear Progression we’ve seen with all the Ascendent Equipment Introductions, knowing that this won’t be the lats step, Legendary Armors/Accessoires/Upgrades are missing to make the picture complete)
• Talents/ Abilities (what has happened with plans of redesigning the Trait System?)
• Skill Skins

Whats Indirect progression compared to that ? Simple answer – everything, that indirectly influences the progression of a character. Things that let a character progress n a different kind of way – things that have nothing to do with combat, stats, classes in itself and so on. Among this are things to discuss like

• Housing
• Skin Locker
• Mounts/ other forms of Travel Systems for alternative (Air Ships, Trains, Ships…)
• Titles and Changes to those, that are currently lifetime jobs designed to never achieve them in a human lifespan (I’m looking at you, all the PvP and especialliy WvW Titles !!)

Surely there are in both areas alot more topics that will be mentioned for the discussion. I’m eagerly awaiting the start of this discussion and you can expect me to participate in this one alot more, than in the previous discussion.

Although I wont be directly contributing much, I think this could be an interesting discussion to watch. I think a lot of players have had input on this one over the past year+, but I’m really intrigued to get different dev viewpoints on this subject since it is quite the key for building future mmo games and I think their contributions could be fascinating to read.

One concern I have about horizontal vs vertical progression, is to make sure that content can still be usefully gated by level. With the addition of the new heals, we’re starting to make characters more powerful without increasing their “level”. How will that translate to setting difficulty in the future? Will L80 content always be doable by someone with only rare equipment and challenging to someone with a full load of ascended items+legendaries? Some developers in another MMO I play have stated that developing new content is more difficult now because of the expanding gap between a freshly level-capped player and a long term player, and it is really starting to show in their mission development.

And here I figured that things were still at a stalemate after the last process evolution thread. Guess I was right about that whole focusing on one segment of the game at a time leaving those not interested in that one segment in the lurch.

Well, hopefully the WvW topic going on right now is going well and there have been the needed improvements in the CDI process.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

Happy Wintersday! The next CDI topic will be starting tomorrow and will be housed on this forum. The topic will be around Player Progression: Horizontal vs Vertical Progression.

Looking forward to discussing this topic with you all.

Chris

Horizontal vs Vertical Progression? As far as i remember it should be Ascende gear. Naming it Horizontal vs Vertical Progression may be confusing for many players.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

FYI if we go with the next topics from the initial call for topics threads (Global) then they are as follows:

PVE: Ascended Gear
PvP: Rewards and Progression
WvW: Skill Lag

These are all pretty focused topics which means we will be able to enter into the discussions more readily in terms of time. The bigger the topic the more divergent the discussions and this makes it harder for us to give them our full attention.

Chris

daros.3407:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

Happy Wintersday! The next CDI topic will be starting tomorrow and will be housed on this forum. The topic will be around Player Progression: Horizontal vs Vertical Progression.

Looking forward to discussing this topic with you all.

Chris

Horizontal vs Vertical Progression? Shouldn’t the thread be named Ascended gear?

Horizontal vs Vertical Progression actually covers Ascended gear but i can be confusing for many players.

If the topic is called Ascended Gear, then it’s specific to that, whereas, as you rightly said, the general topic of ^ vs > Progression covers that and more (such as new skills and acquisition).

Easy, vertical progression = I quit GW2.

TheDaiBish.9735:

daros.3407:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

Happy Wintersday! The next CDI topic will be starting tomorrow and will be housed on this forum. The topic will be around Player Progression: Horizontal vs Vertical Progression.

Looking forward to discussing this topic with you all.

Chris

Horizontal vs Vertical Progression? Shouldn’t the thread be named Ascended gear?

Horizontal vs Vertical Progression actually covers Ascended gear but i can be confusing for many players.

If the topic is called Ascended Gear, then it’s specific to that, whereas, as you rightly said, the general topic of ^ vs > Progression covers that and more (such as new skills and acquisition).

But what people voted for should be at least mentioned in title. What about ,,Horizontal vs Vertical Progression and Ascended gear"
I just think i should be clearly in title what people voted for.

daros.3407:

But what people voted for should be at least mentioned in title. What about ,,Horizontal vs Vertical Progression and Ascended gear"
I just think i should be clearly in title what people voted for.

Why?

It’s somewhat pointless, since vertical progression includes, but isn’t limited to, Ascended gear, thus an all-encompassing title would be better since the discussion would be about Vertical Progression in all of it’s aspects.

“Horizontal vs Vertical Progression and Ascended Gear” seems to indicate that their discussing ^ vs > progression in relation to Ascended Gear specifically, instead of a general topic about these forms of progression.

Another thing to think about; why did people ask for a topic on Ascended? Was it merely the acquisition of the gear? Or was it because it introduced vertical progression?

Undoubtedly, Ascended will be discussed in great deal, so I don’t really see an issue with the title welcoming discussion in all aspects of the topic.

TheDaiBish.9735:

daros.3407:

But what people voted for should be at least mentioned in title. What about ,,Horizontal vs Vertical Progression and Ascended gear"
I just think i should be clearly in title what people voted for.

Why?

It’s somewhat pointless, since vertical progression includes, but isn’t limited to, Ascended gear, thus an all-encompassing title would be better since the discussion would be about Vertical Progression in all of it’s aspects.

“Horizontal vs Vertical Progression and Ascended Gear” seems to indicate that their discussing ^ vs > progression in relation to Ascended Gear specifically, instead of a general topic about these forms of progression.

Another thing to think about; why did people ask for a topic on Ascended? Was it merely the acquisition of the gear? Or was it because it introduced vertical progression?

Undoubtedly, Ascended will be discussed in great deal, so I don’t really see an issue with the title welcoming discussion in all aspects of the topic.

To answer your why – Becouse that is what people voted for it. And why people wanted to talk about that. I read almost whole election thread and most people said that it is too grindy or alt unfriendly. And it was looot of people. Its the second most wanted PVE topic after all.
Horizontal vs Vertical Progression will hopefully do the job, but i still belive that in topic should be what people wanted to talk about.

I agree. I think of completely different things when I hear “Vertical progression vs. Horizontal progression” than when I hear “Ascended gear.”

Horizontal vs Vertical Progression will hopefully do the job, but i still belive that in topic should be what people wanted to talk about.

I’m sure Ascended gear will be emphasized in the OP.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

Happy Wintersday! The next CDI topic will be starting tomorrow and will be housed on this forum. The topic will be around Player Progression: Horizontal vs Vertical Progression.

Looking forward to discussing this topic with you all.

Chris

Hey Chris,

You forgott somthing about Progression in your game wich is pretty important to manyof us. The Topic should be: Horizontal vs Vertical vs Reset of Progression. Please don’t ignore the Topic that is so important for many of us about reseting Progression. Here you see that many People care about the reset of Progression: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/fractured/Merged-Fractal-level-reset-is-equity-wiped-Discuss/page/22#post3347630

It would really feel like a spit in our faces at least for my case if you talk about Progression and systematicly ignore my reset Progression!

Thanks in Advance!

A dedicted Fanboi

Finnway.2183:

I agree. I think of completely different things when I hear “Vertical progression vs. Horizontal progression” than when I hear “Ascended gear.”

Horizontal vs Vertical Progression will hopefully do the job, but i still belive that in topic should be what people wanted to talk about.

I’m sure Ascended gear will be emphasized in the OP.

ascended gear is vertical progression in gw2 its now the top tier of gear where as at release exotic was

^^^ That’s common knowledge, bro. What I meant was Ascended gear isn’t the only form of vertical progression in the game.

I hope you everyone involved has their big boy ascended panta crafted. The next cdi gonna be interesting. Finally a chance to get some real dialogue gong regarding the most controversial addition to the game, aside from living story

I shall prepare my input.

Thanks for the reply Chris, I was starting to wonder.

If this CDI gets started late will it be the last discussion before Christmas break? Thanks.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi Finnway,

This will be the last CDI of the year as the topic applies to WvW, PVE and PVP, and also we can take the extra time to keep it open for a while over the holiday period.

Exciting!

Chris

I hate to be a broken record, but you realize that Devon never did a wrap up summary from the WvW Population Imbalance CDI like you said you’d ask him to do, right? As it stands now, none of us have the slightest idea what he thought was worth pursuing from 23 pages representing over 1,100 player comments, and all of us pretty much expect that nothing will ever come of any of it. In case you forgot, I was the one you directly responded to when you said you’d ask him to do that, so either you let it slide or he did.

Looks like there is a summary by Devon there to me, and has been for a month. Maybe I misunderstand what you are asking for, though.

You know what was cool? When you stopped treating us WvWers like we were second class citizens and made exotic 80 gear attainable.

You know what wasn’t? Releasing ascended gear that currently ISNT. Weapons/Armor.

WvW is not profitable, and thus we have no way of getting the mats we need outside of PvE grinding. I play your game for the ONE thing it has over other games in the genre, WvW… why should I have to PvE grind ANYTHING if I want to WvW exclusively? Not saying they should be easy to get, but you need to give the MANY MANY players like me some options.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Looks like there is a summary by Devon there to me, and has been for a month. Maybe I misunderstand what you are asking for, though.

I asked for a summary of what Devon felt were the actionable ideas collected from the WvW Population Imbalance CDI once it was closed. That doesn’t mean which things would get implemented … it means which items struck enough of a chord with Devon that they might get investigated for possible further action. Chris promised to ask Devon to provide such a summary, but we never got it.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/CDI-Process-Evolution/page/3
(post from Chris from 15 days ago … about 40% of the way down the page)

Let me ask it this way. Based upon everything you’ve read from Devon Carter in response to everything that came up in that first WvW CDI, what exactly do you think he plans to pursue in any fashion? Seriously … please list what you think Devon gathered from our efforts. We got ZERO feedback on his honest impressions of anything … not what was worth investigating, not what was worth more discussion, not what was impractical or outside ANet’s vision for WvW … nothing. The best we got was a couple of admonitions that we really shouldn’t expect anything at all. It’s not collaborative if only one side takes it seriously enough to actually express an opinion.

Sadly, I’m pretty sure that now even Chris would just as soon sweep the whole topic under the rug.

yes to horizontal progression

no to vertical progression

Chris Whiteside.6102:

The topic will be around Player Progression: Horizontal vs Vertical Progression.

This horse left the barn Nov 2012 …

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

Happy Wintersday! The next CDI topic will be starting tomorrow and will be housed on this forum. The topic will be around Player Progression: Horizontal vs Vertical Progression.

Looking forward to discussing this topic with you all.

Chris

This is a great conversation to have… 1 year ago. Can’t wait to pour my heart out for nothing.

I’m sorry but the obliviousness is hilarious guys.

Tomorrow I’m gonna call one of my old buddies from high school so we can have a conversation about the pros and cons of childhood pranks years I after I hid all of his clothes after football practice.

Thanks for the laugh.

I haven’t been participating in this CDI stuff partly because I really don’t see much coming from it. Devon Carvers (lack of) responses in the first WvW CDI are proof enough of that. In the other CDI threads to date players presented very little that was new, very little that we haven’t posted about previously, ideas that Anet could have already been working on.

Instead Anet continues to bring out material that players clearly don’t want, and grind and farmfests that were absolutely not a part of the product that I was originally sold. I’m sure I don’t need to provide examples to players.

The other reason for not participating in the CDI process is that I’m finding it difficult to not be quite rude about the situation. Some people might like to suggest that I should treat these forums as if this were a real life situation and that the people were sitting here in the room with me.

Let me assure you, in real life I’m really quite rude with people who sell me on a product, and then try to deliver something different. Those sorts of people don’t last long in any room I’m sitting in.

I think I’ll stop now.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

yes to horizontal progression

no to vertical progression

Indeed. Discussion closed.

That was a quick one!

bri.2359:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

The topic will be around Player Progression: Horizontal vs Vertical Progression.

This horse left the barn Nov 2012 …

This is true, but I’d like to be sure the corral gate is closed. Plus, it’s about much more than gear to me. I can no longer be an effective combatant in WvW because I don’t already have the ranks and abilities that others have there.

I’m okay with vertical progression in some, very limited, parts of the game — for example Fractals of the Mist and the gear required there — but in other parts of the game it is seeping in and it really needs to be stopped.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

I haven’t been participating in this CDI stuff partly because I really don’t see much coming from it.

I’ll agree that I do not see much coming from the CDIs, at least not in the near future. I understand it takes time to talk about internally and develop. I will continue to participate and voice opinions and suggestions much as I have for the past year, albiet in a more productive manner. But these are problems that we have been clamoring about for months, or a year now. And why listen to us now?

For example, if they make a change with their gear progression system(whatever it is), and it is something that we have been ranting about for ages(since November 2012), why listen to us now? What makes now any different than the previous 13 months? Just because we had a thread that is officially sanctioned by Arenanet, only then do our voices get weighed a bit more and action taken?

So at this point I am pretty impatient, while knowing it takes time to make change.

I voiced my opinion in the LS thread very heavily. I will do so even more heavily in the upcoming CDI. I will then sit back and wait for some change. Im not giving ultimatums or a specific deadline, but somewheres around 3 or 4 months… if things don’t start improving to what the masses touch on in these CDIs(i.e. if more often than not people all agree on one item), I will finally leave the game for good. Not a break, but for good. There are too many good titles scheduled to drop in 2014 (TESO, Wildstar, Everquest Next(might be 2015)). Too many titles to ignore when GW2 has ignored its shortcomings and only now acknowledge and attempt to address faults.

I hope change comes soon.

Aye.8392:

I’m okay with vertical progression in some, very limited, parts of the game — for example Fractals of the Mist and the gear required there — but in other parts of the game it is seeping in and it really needs to be stopped.

Even in Fractals, the requirement on AR they put since the fractured patch is way too high compared to what it was before (where a skilled player could compensate a lower stuff with his skill), and most of the hardcore fractals players are against that much vertical progression.

We want the player skill to be the most important component of a player progression. We don’t want the player ability (and time available) to grind and farm stuff to be the key component of progression.

I mean I’m glad to see that some attention might be paid to the subject, but it seems kind of laughable to discuss this right after the ascended armor gear grind is revealed. Hopefully something useful comes from the discussion but my expectations are decidedly low.

FeveredDreamer.2693:

I mean I’m glad to see that some attention might be paid to the subject, but it seems kind of laughable to discuss this right after the ascended armor gear grind is revealed. Hopefully something useful comes from the discussion but my expectations are decidedly low.

You know, I hadn’t thought about the timing of this. It is a curious thought, however. I’ll give Anet the benefit of the doubt and say it wasn’t intentional. I don’t think they thought “Well lets get ascended armor out the door, and then talk about it after the fact”.

If we are going with character progression, then let’s hop on the topic of the progression being taken away. If we get to a certain point in the game while working really hard to get there, why is it ok to take that progression away when you want to be all about character progression? Example: in fractals, you took all that progression away without any compensation what-so-ever and called it even. How should I even take you seriously in conversation that involves character progression, when you can at any moment in time take that progress away and make it like it never happened in the first place? Would you even care to elaborate on that for once? Or all we really deserve is another “gathering feedback” response?

Chris, copying this over from an old CDI thread in case you missed it. Given the OPs question it seemed relevant.

Webba.3071:

I dont know if this is the right place to post this but its the best I could find, which in itself is relevant to the suggestion I would like to make.

It seems that CDI does not have a home, so to speak, but is spread out across the various forums the different threads are related to. This makes sense, but for someone who doesn’t visit the forums everyday its quite difficult and time consuming to find where the various threads are.

I would suggest a stickied post in the suggestions forum listing all the CDI threads, current and completed, in chronological order and with a short paragraph describing the purpose and contents of each.

This would allow participants very convenient access to any topic they might want to contribute too or read up on without requiring you to move any existing threads or reorganize anything else on the forums. It might also help people to grasp the big picture of CDI, which might help them appreciate what you are trying to achieve with it, something that is hard to see if you only see one or two threads every now and then.

Webba.3071:

Chris, copying this over from an old CDI thread in case you missed it. Given the OPs question it seemed relevant.

Webba.3071:

I dont know if this is the right place to post this but its the best I could find, which in itself is relevant to the suggestion I would like to make.

It seems that CDI does not have a home, so to speak, but is spread out across the various forums the different threads are related to. This makes sense, but for someone who doesn’t visit the forums everyday its quite difficult and time consuming to find where the various threads are.

I would suggest a stickied post in the suggestions forum listing all the CDI threads, current and completed, in chronological order and with a short paragraph describing the purpose and contents of each.

This would allow participants very convenient access to any topic they might want to contribute too or read up on without requiring you to move any existing threads or reorganize anything else on the forums. It might also help people to grasp the big picture of CDI, which might help them appreciate what you are trying to achieve with it, something that is hard to see if you only see one or two threads every now and then.

This is a good idea.

I’m not sure the Suggestion sub-forum is the best place to put the sticky. I’ve never been there, but from what I hear, it’s considered a graveyard that few people visit. Perhaps, the sticky should be placed somewhere with more traffic…..say, like General Discussion?

Cactus.2710:

Sadly, I’m pretty sure that now even Chris would just as soon sweep the whole topic [the stillborn WvW CDI on population imbalance] under the rug.

Considering that he just answered someone’s comment else about a half hour ago and ignored this one, it’s pretty clear that’s exactly what is happening.

I’m done caring …

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I’m not sure the Suggestion sub-forum is the best place to put the sticky. I’ve never been there, but from what I hear, it’s considered a graveyard that few people visit. Perhaps, the sticky should be placed somewhere with more traffic…..say, like General Discussion?

Another good point. A more visible forum may be better for healthier discussion.

Thanks for the response Chris, I look forward to the topic

Aeonblade.8709:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I’m not sure the Suggestion sub-forum is the best place to put the sticky. I’ve never been there, but from what I hear, it’s considered a graveyard that few people visit. Perhaps, the sticky should be placed somewhere with more traffic…..say, like General Discussion?

Another good point. A more visible forum may be better for healthier discussion.

Thanks for the response Chris, I look forward to the topic

I doubt that will matter much. The burnout rate is going to be very high once people realize they are talking to a wall. The last one was maybe ever so slightly improved.

Back on topic. What is there to say about this really?
The choices are
1) yes to vertical – yes to horizontal
2) yes to vertical – no to horizontal
3) no to vertical – yes to horizontal
4) no to vertical – no to horizontal

Based on past forum posts there are a lot more people for 3 than 2.

Vertical progression doesn’t make any sense for GW2 PvE since that just makes the game easier and easier every time it happens. It seems irrelevant in sPvP so we are back to WvW.

I feel that for the most part there is little to no progression in PvE due to the design of various(everything?) things. What I mean is that there is no consistency. Usually in games you can expect that as you level the content becomes more challenging or the game game keeps challenge rating flat. In GW2 it feels like it goes up and down more often than a rollercoaster. Fighting something in a lv1-15 zone can potentially be more challenging than fighting something in a lv80 zone. Dungeons? CoF p1 and HotW p1 are probably two of the easiest paths in the game.

No topic yet? 15chars

Talk is cheap. CDI is worthless without the accompanying action.

Judging by the lack of action taken from the last CDI before the “big” balance patch on the five toons I have, this CDI will be a non-starter.

Unless action is taken on the CDI then it is nothing more than PR.

cesmode.4257:

FeveredDreamer.2693:

I mean I’m glad to see that some attention might be paid to the subject, but it seems kind of laughable to discuss this right after the ascended armor gear grind is revealed. Hopefully something useful comes from the discussion but my expectations are decidedly low.

You know, I hadn’t thought about the timing of this. It is a curious thought, however. I’ll give Anet the benefit of the doubt and say it wasn’t intentional. I don’t think they thought “Well lets get ascended armor out the door, and then talk about it after the fact”.

I guarantee you it was intentional. If Anet is good at anything, it’s spin and looking like they care. They would not have been so foolish as to have such a topic right before releasing the next layer of vertical grind.