Guild Wars 2

I have played since launch and the 2015 trait update brought a lot of new wind into the game but a lot of these traits have shown what they are capabble of and what not.

I demmand a new trait rework because there are several flawed or just not good designed ones.
In addition i wish there would be a new skill and class overhaul.

Rangers have a class mechanic that depends on the pet you choose and some of which are just plain underperforming to others.

Mesmers have a classmechanic where they are punished if they kill a target.

Revenants have energy cost and CD on everything which restricts its skills. It has several traits that underperform others.
It has very limited build diversity because of needed stunbreaks condi removes etc.

Warriors are in a good spot but still have skills/traits that arent used in favor of better ones.
For guardians its the same as warrior (and torch needs a rework)

For everyone that has something to add what needs improvements just say it.
Bump this thread if agreeing.

Edit: With rework i dont mean throw everything out of the window and begin from scratch. I mean rework or replace not compeeding skills and traits and improve class mechanics.
I dont want it due to tomorrow but rather try to signalize that we could need improvements.

I have all professions, but I’ll make comments on the ones I play regularly and effectively at. I prefer power builds because I find them more fun than condispamming everything.

I can agree on somethings, mesmers illusions and phantasms for one. They also have no real DPS build that competes with other professions at all. Lacklustre outside of boon-popping fractal/raids.

Engineers also don’t have a great power build in comparison to their condition build (I play power scrapper because it’s hilarious, but it’s too weak to take anywhere outside of openworld PvE)

Situational damage increases for power necro also. They can’t compare to other professions either until foes reach <50% HP, then they’re still mediocre, it’s just reaching that 50%, for openworld PvE (Where kill speed doesnt matter much) Necros with their high health pool is great. The lack of group utility in a power build also leaves them behind in the dust. A rework to Vampiric Prescence could really change the dynamic imo.

Thief is in an ok spot right now, but I feel sword needs a bit of love.

Haleydawn.3764:

Engineers also don’t have a great power build in comparison to their condition build (I play power scrapper because it’s hilarious, but it’s too weak to take anywhere outside of openworld PvE)

According to qtfy, tryhard zerk engineer has 30k of dps, but autoattacking with bomb kit + tool belt skills reaches to 25k or so and is quite easy to perform in raid environment, so i wouldn’t say it isn’t a great power build, it has less potential dps but it’s easier to use than tempest or new guardian sc/t+gs builds. Tons of cc, some group healing, pinpoint distribution for condi mates and a good dps, imo.

You’ll have more luck with this if you pick the 1 or 2 classes that you think need a rework the most, presenting an argument as to why you think they need a rework, and then give a proposed solution to that so ANet has something to consider.

But just asking for a rework in general won’t get us anywhere.

Hmm, I main a Ranger with a side of Engineer and Mesmer. The latter two I’m fine with but I’m running into a problem when I try to run power builds on Ranger. I’ve just started in on fractals and while condition damage is nice, I’d very much like to play as power as I prefer ranged abilities (longbow, staff) and they are so-so on condition outside of bleeds which were just nerfed with the February update. I’m already condition on my other two classes and it’s getting a bit much.

I’m not sure if Anet expects our lack of power to be made up for in fractals by our pets but right now, the gap between power and condition is really huge and our pets crumple super fast the moment a boss so much as glances at them unless we keep them on passive, which is yet another DPS loss. Plus, older pets from pre-HoT still need some TLC and Anet still hasn’t fixed the fact that our drakes now only auto attack and no longer use their tail swipe or chomp attacks.

I don’t mind that traps are no longer throwable per se but if they going to try and lock condition damage builds on Rangers to a more melee-centric play style then I’d like ranged power to become a more viable alternative for higher-end content so we have a bit more choice.

OriOri.8724:

You’ll have more luck with this if you pick the 1 or 2 classes that you think need a rework the most, presenting an argument as to why you think they need a rework, and then give a proposed solution to that so ANet has something to consider.

But just asking for a rework in general won’t get us anywhere.

People have gone in depth with their individual classes for years in their personal class forums. If he did pick a single class and go into detail it would just get removed and added to it’s class forum then forgotten like the others.

Classes were nice at launch outside of the heavy zerk meta anyway then they started adjusted things to get into esports. Then adjusted things again to accommodate the light trinity elements for raids.

Regarding TC’s request I don’t think being too specific or asking for a rework will change anything cause its been asked for in varrying degrees in the past.

What we really need is to separate both our skills and traits into the seperate modes. They separated some skills like epidemic to balance things our for WvW a bit but traits need to be split as well. The issue I see is they keep on adding modes at this rate we’d need PVP, PVE, WVW, and Raids(Trinity elements) with individual tweaks to skills and traits and that’s four different areas.

Surely it’d be more productive to go to your class forums and ask for changes there. You’ve made posts in every class forum.

A class rework… Well, sure there is a lot of area that could gain from some rework on each profession.

Elementalist : This profession lack the ability to create for himself enough room to land their burst. Their are a few trait that feel like they ave been designed with flavor in mind but are totally impractical. Conjure have their use in some area of the game but, honestly, the way they are designed is a waste. We won’t see any use of conjure axe (for example) as long as conjures will stay in this “form”.

Engineer : I think that engineer are in a great place. While this profession ask a lot more from the player, it’s also rewarding when you master it. I think that this profession mainly need some work on it’s core main hand weapon which are often weak and clunky.

Guardian : Main issue of guardian are Spirit weapon and few skills on their off hand weapons. I’d rather see a trait that allow me to use spirit weapon active skills without summoning them than bother with these really poor summon. As for the off hand weapons, For me, shield#5 and torch#5 still need work.

Mesmer : Core mesmer just need a reliable way to increase it’s movement speed. Signet of inspiration with it’s 50% time swiftness is unsatisfying. It’s obvious that the next E-Spec will greatly suffer in popularity if there is no movement trait.

Necromancer : This profession suffer from it’s design philosophy. It’s a bother to say it but there is really to much things that need to be done on this profession. And the very first thing to do is for anet to finally decide if they want to really focus this profession on “weakening” foe or if they want it to actively support allies. At the moment the profession is in between these two solution and it doesn’t work. The many burden of the design philosophy behind the necromancer is what hurt this profession, if you add to it the fact that there is useless traits with design flavor that fight against few traits that outshadow them due to their usefullness… This put the profession into a deadlock.

Ranger : Pets, pet skills and pet traits. These three area are what hurt the most the ranger. While the pet should have been the strenght of the ranger, it became it’s burden due to poor skills design, non standard skill cool down, ridiculously nerfed pets traits and poor performance of the pet in game. Well, it’s good to see that Anet try to aleast look at the pet’s performance in game but without an in depth look at the pet’s skills, honnestly, it’ will just end as another waste of game performance.

Revenant : The idea behind the revenant was good but, in the end, it still feel like a profession that’s been created in a rush and need a lot of balance. At the moment it feel unfinished. In a way, it’s energy bar which should give it the edge in game is another limit that feel out of place. Work is needed in both trait and skill (cost/cool down) balance.

Thief : While I feel that the thief is somewhat balanced atm, I still think that the acrobatic traitline need work.

Warrior : The warrior is an alien which is given godly sustain to allow zerk build to work. Honnestly, Anet need to make healing power a necessary thing to achieve that kind of sustain. I suspect that the reason that anet struggle with this sustain issue is because they gave up on giving a proper active defense to the warrior.

I’d rather Anet rework some of the core game’s mechanics before reworking professions. Revert the change to dashes and leaps so soft-cc snares regain their value, alter defiance bars so – when broken – conditions such as blind, weakness, chill, and cripple affect the boss while it regenerates as an extra incentive and reward for breaking it.

Change traits so most of them provide 1-2 functions instead of now where some of them do 3 things and aren’t even in the grandmaster slot. More skill splits for each mode, reducing condition and boon output and durations in WvW, reducing the total allotted stat points of 4-stat gear to match the core game’s 3-stat equipment, and splitting passive movement traits that also reduce movement-impending conditions.

Do that, and the professions can have an overall go-around done to them. But even then, I’d rather see simple and smart tweaks that build synergy and go a long way then major overhauls.

While I applaud regular (i.e., more frequent than currently) balance passes, I don’t want another complete trait or profession rework. ANet has done enough complete reworks as is. I believe it would be better for the game if they concentrated more on content and stopped reinventing the wheel.

Wondrouswall.7169:

I’d rather Anet rework some of the core game’s mechanics before reworking professions. Revert the change to dashes and leaps so soft-cc snares regain their value, alter defiance bars so – when broken – conditions such as blind, weakness, chill, and cripple affect the boss while it regenerates as an extra incentive and reward for breaking it.

This.

Also add in “scrutinize and change Stability again,” because as it sits right now in the current CC-spam environment, it’s actually devalued. Uptime too low + long cooldowns + disablespam = Why Bother.

To say “total rework” is a bit overkill, though. In a lot of cases, there needs to be analysis of traits and why they’re weak/failing and bring other traits/combos into line with the power curve.

Making demands will not get you anywhere on a game forum.

Sarrs.4831:

Surely it’d be more productive to go to your class forums and ask for changes there. You’ve made posts in every class forum.

Thats actually my whole point. There are skills and traits in every class that have not much use or have just not enough punch to compeed with others.
What i want is a skill and trait improvement like the june 2015 update was for ever class.

Wondrouswall.7169:

I’d rather Anet rework some of the core game’s mechanics before reworking professions. Revert the change to dashes and leaps so soft-cc snares regain their value, alter defiance bars so – when broken – conditions such as blind, weakness, chill, and cripple affect the boss while it regenerates as an extra incentive and reward for breaking it.

Change traits so most of them provide 1-2 functions instead of now where some of them do 3 things and aren’t even in the grandmaster slot. More skill splits for each mode, reducing condition and boon output and durations in WvW, reducing the total allotted stat points of 4-stat gear to match the core game’s 3-stat equipment, and splitting passive movement traits that also reduce movement-impending conditions.

Do that, and the professions can have an overall go-around done to them. But even then, I’d rather see simple and smart tweaks that build synergy and go a long way then major overhauls.

You can write them here too its basically a thread for gathering needed improvements.
I change the topic name for that.

Ashen.2907:

Making demands will not get you anywhere on a game forum.

It sounds more dramatic than proposal. What i basically want is gathering attention that the devs consider a bigger change.

Haleydawn.3764:

I have all professions, but I’ll make comments on the ones I play regularly and effectively at. I prefer power builds because I find them more fun than condispamming everything.

I can agree on somethings, mesmers illusions and phantasms for one. They also have no real DPS build that competes with other professions at all. Lacklustre outside of boon-popping fractal/raids.

Engineers also don’t have a great power build in comparison to their condition build (I play power scrapper because it’s hilarious, but it’s too weak to take anywhere outside of openworld PvE)

Situational damage increases for power necro also. They can’t compare to other professions either until foes reach <50% HP, then they’re still mediocre, it’s just reaching that 50%, for openworld PvE (Where kill speed doesnt matter much) Necros with their high health pool is great. The lack of group utility in a power build also leaves them behind in the dust. A rework to Vampiric Prescence could really change the dynamic imo.

Thief is in an ok spot right now, but I feel sword needs a bit of love.

I agree with this post 100%. Scrapper, reaper and chrono power builds have potential, but underperform in everything else but open world PvE. Shatter chrono is a decent +1 and one-shotter though.

Thief sword is also viable, but is nowhere near as good as D/P in skillful hands (or any thief build for that matter).

Dadnir.5038:

A class rework… Well, sure there is a lot of area that could gain from some rework on each profession.

Mesmer : Core mesmer just need a reliable way to increase it’s movement speed. Signet of inspiration with it’s 50% time swiftness is unsatisfying. It’s obvious that the next E-Spec will greatly suffer in popularity if there is no movement trait.

This is not the problem with core mesmer design. And you can run focus + SoI for 98% swiftness uptime with 0 boon duration. Not ideal to be forced into both a utility and a weapon, but the option is there.

Illusions are the source of the biggest problems with core mesmer design.

A – They are our biggest source of sustained damage, and we need them for our burst as well

B – They are single target and die when their target dies

C – Our burst and huge amounts of core mesmer survivability is tied up in shatters, which end up destroying our sustained DPS. Yes, we should have to take a temporary hit to our DPS to get utility like DIversion/Distortion, no that hit should not be to lose up to 3 phantasms. Yes, we should take a hit to sustained dps to have a big burst, again no this hit should not be as large as losing 3 phantasms and thus almost all of our sustained DPS.

Phantasms need to be able to retarget to your new target if their original target dies while you are still in combat, and we should be able to trait for phantasms to persist like pets even when we go out of combat. Phantasm damage needs to be reduced and personal damage needs to be increased to compensate. This way, when we shatter we still have decent-ish sustained DPS even though it would take a hit, this also prevents us from opening a fight with a 3 iZerker burst followed by MW and downing someone instantly.

Then, clone regeneration traits (IR and chronophantasma, DE DD) need to be changed.

OriOri.8724:

snip

I’m not the biggest fan of lowering the DPS of clones and moving more to the Mesmer as the clones are such an integral part of the class mechanics and identity. It’s about as meh to me as when people suggest a petless Ranger as the solution to our DPS woes.

If clones did have to have their DPS lowered, I’d rather they pair it with the ability to generate a fourth clone and have shatter remove the other three but leave you with one. Alternatively, or possibly in addition to that, I think clones should persist for a few seconds after a target dies while you retarget a new enemy for them to attack. I don’t want an army of clones following us at all times but I do agree that I don’t like that we have to spend time building up clones again once an enemy is dead.

Wow, talk about taking the sledgehammer to a thumbtack … no, we don’t really need a class rework because there are a few traits that are flawed or not good. I’m not even sure how this thread could possibly make sense to someone wanting to take good feedback from it … there are nine classes and each one has different issues not necessarily related to the things being demanded by the OP.

So part of the reason that I want damage moved away from phantasms is because phantasms need to be able to retarget while in combat at the very least, and ideally they need to be able to persist even when you go out of combat. However, due to the large power damage some of them can put out, this can lead to a considerable advantage for the mesmer in the opening of a fight.

Seriously, if you got out 3 iZerkers or 3 iDuelists and retargeted to a new opponent, and all 3 attacked at the same time it would deal huge damage, too much damage for my liking. One of the best ways to balance that is to just reduce their base damage and give at least part of it back to the mesmer’s skills.

I do think that their high damage is one of the reasons that we aren’t allowed to have them persist at the moment. So lowering their damage is an integral step to allowing us to have persisting phantasms, or at the very least phantasms that retarget when their target is dead.

OriOri.8724:

So part of the reason that I want damage moved away from phantasms is because phantasms need to be able to retarget while in combat at the very least, and ideally they need to be able to persist even when you go out of combat. However, due to the large power damage some of them can put out, this can lead to a considerable advantage for the mesmer in the opening of a fight.

Seriously, if you got out 3 iZerkers or 3 iDuelists and retargeted to a new opponent, and all 3 attacked at the same time it would deal huge damage, too much damage for my liking. One of the best ways to balance that is to just reduce their base damage and give at least part of it back to the mesmer’s skills.

I do think that their high damage is one of the reasons that we aren’t allowed to have them persist at the moment. So lowering their damage is an integral step to allowing us to have persisting phantasms, or at the very least phantasms that retarget when their target is dead.

I can see where it would have a benefit for PvP. Perhaps I should have explained that I was thinking more in terms of PvE.

Elementalist conjured weapons – Turn them into spirit weapons, still limited uses, but now they change their skills according to the element they are in. Remove the ability for other people to pick them up. Give the ability to use spirit axe and/or spirit shield with a tangible main/offhand weapon.

I agree with this.

I’ll try to keep this post brief (I posted some walls on the Mesmer forum before) but I think overall too many classes are broken at a conceptual or design stage by now. Some because their underlying ideas never came to live, some because the game evolved in a way which didn’t agree with the base idea.

And in many cases it feels as if plenty classes only have a set of traits or skills because pre-release, someone sat down to “pad them”.

So what I’d propose is:

1. Take all classes back to the drawing board. We can see some underlying designs, Revenants as a role-swapper, Elementalists as a jack-of-all-trades, Mesmers as an interrupter. These are still around, buried somewhere in the class. Go back to the conceptual stage, and give each class a clear, underlying, theme.
2. Go over the classes at an underlying level, adapt class mechanics, weapon selection and maybe even the combat system as a whole to fit the new theme. If Warriors are to be designed to barrel into melee combat but not even have a ranged weapon, it can be made to work (plenty games did!), but it’d need commitment at this stage.
3. Then, go to the traits and skills. Scrap everything which doesn’t fit the theme, realign remaining elements to fit the theme. If this creates too many gaps, scrap something bigger, like trait picks as a whole, maybe lines don’t all need the exact same setup.
4. Afterwards, take the theme and “fill out”, since so much was scrapped. Give new skills and maybe entire skill types. But this time, align them with the theme from the first point, if Thieves are entirely around hit&run, don’t even give them a single sustain skill.
5. Finally, take a hard look at items. Ideally, these also have a clear theme, e.g. 1H Mace always has 1 or more line-AE skills, while 2H Hammers always have 1 or more skills which make you jump and hit in an area.

Now as for specific ideas for class themes I’d have, hrm… not all come to mind easily:

• Warrior: Unstoppable, Defiant, Strong. Only class with easy access to Stability, not a single ranged option beyond 600 range (throwing axes maybe?), lots of skills which charge towards a specific target, but none which allow you to disengage. Can be set up to bring strong Stun/Disorient/Daze CC.
• Mesmer: Impossible to nail down, but frail. While illusions are up, cannot be damaged. Virtually defenseless and dies quickly when exposed. Illusions do nothing but only die to specifically targeted attack and from the perspective of the target they were cast upon, dodge and use skills and all (to everyone else they’re blindingly obvious). Cannot be replaced in a spammable manner. Strong as a tank as a result of this.

Will add more later, work and all.

It’s not exactly a rework what I have in mind, but a certain idea that looms in my mind for quite a long while.
It’s for the guardian, a new class mechanic of sorts. I don’t really know how it would work out, but I think that instead of application of burn every fitfth hit, the last struck gives a special sort of aegis that absorbs damage, not protection or block, but damage absorption, let’s say a base value of 2k damage which is an auto attack and a half out of a zerker stat. However this might greatly hinder burn guard so the other way might be F3 activation to give a huge damage absorb of all kinds (power and condi) for a value of about 10-15k damage, and let’s let the this absorb last for 8 seconds base with a possibility to lengthen it to 10 through trait.
This mechanic might be something good for a new elite spec but still, I would definitely see it as a rework for aegis so that instead of 1 time block we get few K’s of damage absorb based on the level of power and condi damage.

What i read here for the most part sounds like people want an entirely different game then what we have…

LouWolfskin.3492:

What i read here for the most part sounds like people want an entirely different game then what we have…

On a class level, yes. I feel the game world / design / lore is amazing. But the classes seem like they were hastily put together, and originally not even intended for the way the combat system worked out.

Plus, like many things in GW2, they were probably designed using accretion, throwing in things until some stick.

But, 4,5 years down the line, I feel this is finally bursting at the seams. Many many MMORPGs (and non MMOs) have eventually done massive reworks, either class-by-class, or all in one batch. For a reason. This is sometimes necessary. The game evolves, and some elements such as underlying class design cannot be adapted in small increments, rather the game design moves away from them and then eventually you do the “rough” break of redesigning them one after the other.

I don’t feel though that we will get another massive rework.
I’d be happy if the old class lines would get turned into elite specs so that the almost duo class System we now have wouldn’t be possible anymore.

I don’t mind that most classes can swap between melee and range, i don’t mind that everyone has ways to sustain themselves.

Here’s the thing with what i see from your proposed changes so far Carighan: You’d have to rebuild PvE entirely to make it work.

And in part that should be done anyway, what makes the Necro fail in PvE, at least in my opinion, isn’t that the class is badly designed, the class works out in PvP just fine, it’s that PvE doesn’t offer what the Necro needs to work.

There are barely any conditions in the core game, barely any enemies that use buffs he could corrupt and that is why he feels so… off there.

From my perspective, playing all my characters almost evenly, the classes themselves, aside a few tweaks here and there and the mentioned change to core class lines, are fine.
Mobs in the open world though, are not.
When i entered the first instance of Head of the Snake my eyes lit up with glee about finally having enemies with AoE Aegis.
Entering Lake Doric and seeing that the White Mantle Mesmers could steal buffs from every enemy hit by their Mind Stab i was so happy as a Necro.

If anything the new areas, and it began with HoT, fixed quite a few problems i had with the game so far, i just wish that those changes would reach the core game somehow.

LouWolfskin.3492:

snip

Mesmers have a similar problem for some of their abilities. We can rip boons from enemies but…where are the enemies that are buffing themselves outside of new content? Mind you it’s not as important for us as it is for necros but it does make the ability set feel a little incomplete.

Irijia.6073:

LouWolfskin.3492:

snip

Mesmers have a similar problem for some of their abilities. We can rip boons from enemies but…where are the enemies that are buffing themselves outside of new content? Mind you it’s not as important for us as it is for necros but it does make the ability set feel a little incomplete.

I was merely trying to give an example. Where is the guards possible group-cleanse needed in PvE, why do people outside of HoT never feel like CC or Support in general could be a good idea?
From what i read it’s always “Just go full damage and you’re good” okay, that works for a good Portion of the game, although A-Net stated “Zerker was fun but it’s time to end this era” when HoT was announced, but be honest, it makes the game boring does it not?

You barely have to work together, the core aspect to be happy about seeing other players on most maps never rang true for me, my thought when seeing others outside of my friends i played with was: Ugh, another player, probably a zerker… yeah, let’s leave this event, he/she’ll kill the enemies without a problem anyway.

engineers need the old traiting system, 3 trait lines is NOT enough for the engineer, alchemy is almost a necessity and so is tools line, but we don’t need the full trait line so we lose traits we could’ve had.. the patch that destroyed build variety also destroyed engineer class along the way

Kaizoku.1298:

engineers need the old traiting system, 3 trait lines is NOT enough for the engineer, alchemy is almost a necessity and so is tools line, but we don’t need the full trait line so we lose traits we could’ve had.. the patch that destroyed build variety also destroyed engineer class along the way

Wouldn’t that more imply that the other traitlines need a look at?

Engie is the most inconsistent profession right now, with skill familys and traitlines that are either mandatory or gimmicky, great tools for some extremely specific contents, utter crapiness for the rest, and 1,5 usable weapons from only 4 choices.

Engie need everything looked at.

it is not the Classes that are by design out of touch with the gameplay, it is the Combat System, that is totally out of touch with the Game’s Classes and especially their added Elite Specializations, because Anet basically threw Elite Specs into the Game’s freezing cold water when the game was pretty much at the most terrible unbalanced and totally unprepared moment, so that Elite Specs were for GW2 like oil put right into the unbalance fire which made it flame up only stronger than ever before.

The Game needs significant impactful changes to the Combat System Elements, that Anet kept on ignoring for 4 and a half years by now!!!

- Max Health
- Gear Stats & Attribute Effects
- Upgrades
- Conditions
- Boons

These 5 areas need to get now finally a real strong look over and nothing else
Once ANet has fixed and rebalanced finally for the game these 5 Core Elements of the games most important Combat System Structure, then and only then it is time again for anet to make ever again some finetuning Class Balance Changes on Skills and Traits again, because only iof ANet makes some impactful changes on the Combat System Strucutre of its centristic Core Elements, then and only then has Anet a real reason again to make any changes on the game Balance on a design and conceptual level of every single specific class by makiong finetunings on the skills and traits of each class.

But Anet made for all those years nothing, than permanently scratching only on the peak if the iceberg of each class by making only number changes on skills and traits, while ignoring everything else.
Thats not the way how you keep a games combat system balanced, if you ignore 99% of your game mechanics constantly and make every like 3-6 months only some small changes on some skills and traits of the classes? That isn’t working and will never work in a good way.

This game will make only a great step forward for its good, if Anet finally gets their heads out of the sand and stops playing ostrich by giving this game the neccessary bigger changes that are required to not only rebalance this games combat system,but also to refresh it, to actualize it to the newest game mechanic standards that they self implemented into the Game with Elite Specs and to revitalize through these impactful changes also the build diversity among all classes together by adding in the future also more Elite Specializations to broaden this way further the build diversity of each Class – what in return will work only, if ANet prepares first the games combat system#s core elements for more Elite Specs to be added in the future, instead of throwign them all like the first set into an absolutely unprepared game, and expect then from the game, that everythign works totally fine together, as if these things were to be designed from begin on to belong together, when this was never the case and anet uses still outdated core mechanics, that were designed and balanced around a game state, where Elite Specs were never to be thought to be once a part of the game and its balance around the Core Mechanics of the games Combat System.

Thats like putting milk into a rim full cup of coffee and expecting from the cup that it is from the way it got out of the manufactioring big enough to not let anything from the coffee spill over, when in fact the cup got just overwhelmed by the extra milk and it spills over.

So what would a logical thinking person do in such a stupid situation?
A) would you take a spoon and and turn it in the cup of coffee so long around, until enough has spilled over, until it fits? (GW2 Number Changes of Skills and Traits)

or

B) would you be so intelligent to wait for inputting the extra milk, until you got yourself first a bigger cup first, that is by its design better fitting for your coffee + the extra milk, so that nothing will spill over ever, even if you turn a spoon in it like crazy?? (Change the Core Situation, by adapting the Core Element, that creates the problem, if you alterate the Core Element through added content, so in GW2 terms, change the Core Elements of the Combat System first, so that they are by design again balanced and fitting for the new situation…before you add new stuff to the game, i.e. much more E Specs in the future)

If I would be in the situation of Anet, I would have gone with Situation B!! as it would have been the much smarter solution.
Some things in life simple need time and overarching preparement of other game elements first and shouldn’t be rushed over, like ANet did it with HoT in every aspect of it.

Suppose for an instant that they believed that one of the people on this thread was absolutely right and they would not live another second without implementing all of the ideas. Since there are contradictory examples on this thread what are you others going to do? Will you say wow that person was so wonderful and now the game is perfect (one person maybe will say this) the rest will go on with your ideas about how messed up the game is until they listen to the “right” person.

I agree that the mesmer needs a rework of its ground mechanics. Its hard to do anything in the open world when your illusions die everytime their target dies.
Therefore I also support the idea of the “hotfix” to make the phantasm AoE-spells – meaning that they are not bound to a specific enemy and only die when bursted or scaterred. This will also distinguish illusions from phantasm better. Illusions would be short cooldown abilities that shall distract the enemy and longlasting phantasm for damage (with higher cooldowns).

Also going back to scratch and giving each class a fitting theme is a good idea – but probably needs to much ressources to do that. If they do that they can also start to develop GW3.
But on the other hand at least the Weapons should get that threatment. They are often the most importand part of your build and at least the weapon skills of the “core-specialisations” just look like a bunch of random skills put together. The Weaponsskills should work like a champ from LoL e.g. – having a overarcing theme, a well-done gameplay and lots of combination possibilities.

As an example just have a look at the rifle of the engineer: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rifle

How shall you play it? As a range weapon the first idea is to stay away from the enemy – so that you can hit them but they cannot hit you. Also the snare on skill 3 supports that. Snare from and get some free shots from far away. Easy. But Skill 3 suddenly does more damage when you are close to your enemy and therefore contradicting the idea from above. Then skill 4 creates distance between you and your enemy so we are back in range theme. Last but not Least you have a nice leap which does the most damage when leaping on top of your enemy ….. its seems like the creator of that build couldnt decide if he wants to make a melee weapon or a ranged one.
Ok you could say that you could snare your enemy than leap on top of him use skill 3 and at the end skill 4 to get distance again …. thats a nice combo … but the only one which makes sense …. and using the same rotation over and over again makes the gameplay kind of dumb.

The lets have a look over a good example: The Greatsword of the reaper – https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Greatsword
First of the theme of the reaper is that of a juggernaut which slowly approaches and does lots of damage in close combat. This is supported by skill 2 and 4 -both beeing potent but having some kind of delay which your prey can use to escape. So the rest of the build is just to preventing that. You have a pull + chill on 5, chill in the autoattack chain and a cripple in 4. Plus a dash on 3 to get in position first.

So I want them to change all old weapon skills to match the quality of the new ones ….. if you get what I mean.

Gomes.5643:

I agree that the mesmer needs a rework of its ground mechanics. Its hard to do anything in the open world when your illusions die everytime their target dies.
Therefore I also support the idea of the “hotfix” to make the phantasm AoE-spells – meaning that they are not bound to a specific enemy and only die when bursted or scaterred. This will also distinguish illusions from phantasm better. Illusions would be short cooldown abilities that shall distract the enemy and longlasting phantasm for damage (with higher cooldowns).

Also going back to scratch and giving each class a fitting theme is a good idea – but probably needs to much ressources to do that. If they do that they can also start to develop GW3.
But on the other hand at least the Weapons should get that threatment. They are often the most importand part of your build and at least the weapon skills of the “core-specialisations” just look like a bunch of random skills put together. The Weaponsskills should work like a champ from LoL e.g. – having a overarcing theme, a well-done gameplay and lots of combination possibilities.

As an example just have a look at the rifle of the engineer: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rifle

How shall you play it? As a range weapon the first idea is to stay away from the enemy – so that you can hit them but they cannot hit you. Also the snare on skill 3 supports that. Snare from and get some free shots from far away. Easy. But Skill 3 suddenly does more damage when you are close to your enemy and therefore contradicting the idea from above. Then skill 4 creates distance between you and your enemy so we are back in range theme. Last but not Least you have a nice leap which does the most damage when leaping on top of your enemy ….. its seems like the creator of that build couldnt decide if he wants to make a melee weapon or a ranged one.
Ok you could say that you could snare your enemy than leap on top of him use skill 3 and at the end skill 4 to get distance again …. thats a nice combo … but the only one which makes sense …. and using the same rotation over and over again makes the gameplay kind of dumb.

The lets have a look over a good example: The Greatsword of the reaper – https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Greatsword
First of the theme of the reaper is that of a juggernaut which slowly approaches and does lots of damage in close combat. This is supported by skill 2 and 4 -both beeing potent but having some kind of delay which your prey can use to escape. So the rest of the build is just to preventing that. You have a pull + chill on 5, chill in the autoattack chain and a cripple in 4. Plus a dash on 3 to get in position first.

So I want them to change all old weapon skills to match the quality of the new ones ….. if you get what I mean.

For your Engineer rifle example, you have to take into account that an Engi can’t swap weapons. In this context the rifle makes sense. You are correct that it is a melee / range hybrid, but the skills support this. It isn’t just ranged or melee damage, it is also transitional movement skills into / out of melee range. For a more focused ranged weapon an Engi would use a pistol (or pistols). To me that gives a proper theme to the rifle, it is a skirmisher type weapon.

This thread serves no purpose other than giving a place for people to speak rather than converse. The number of separate topics in here makes it impossible for people, including devs, do wade through.

Better idea: Go to the subforums for the professions and express the changes that you would like, and please ensure you give a reason for why a change is needed. This way a focused discussion can occur, and ideas can be expressed, expanded, and reviewed far more easily. A refresher on how to give good feedback is advisable.

You’ll notice that Anet has been approaching balance patches by focusing on certain professions at a time, and explaining the direction they’re trying to take each profession. If this is their process, it’s best to communicate in kind.

Edit: Realized the wrong connotation was probably coming through.

Moonyeti.3296:

For your Engineer rifle example, you have to take into account that an Engi can’t swap weapons. In this context the rifle makes sense. You are correct that it is a melee / range hybrid, but the skills support this. It isn’t just ranged or melee damage, it is also transitional movement skills into / out of melee range. For a more focused ranged weapon an Engi would use a pistol (or pistols). To me that gives a proper theme to the rifle, it is a skirmisher type weapon.

Yeah I am aware of that. But you have still the case that in most cases half of your skills are useless and you have one combi which works well. If I compare that to the elite spec weapons there is a lot to introduce. The same counts for all the weapons that have half damaging conditions and half normal damage skills. Regardless what you play … you always feel like you have useless skills on the bar.

Gomes.5643:

Moonyeti.3296:

For your Engineer rifle example, you have to take into account that an Engi can’t swap weapons. In this context the rifle makes sense. You are correct that it is a melee / range hybrid, but the skills support this. It isn’t just ranged or melee damage, it is also transitional movement skills into / out of melee range. For a more focused ranged weapon an Engi would use a pistol (or pistols). To me that gives a proper theme to the rifle, it is a skirmisher type weapon.

Yeah I am aware of that. But you have still the case that in most cases half of your skills are useless and you have one combi which works well. If I compare that to the elite spec weapons there is a lot to introduce. The same counts for all the weapons that have half damaging conditions and half normal damage skills. Regardless what you play … you always feel like you have useless skills on the bar.

If you use the full range of mobility then all the rifle skills are used. Example: start with a net shot then take a few free shots. When the mob breaks free, let them approach and blast them with blunderbuss, then jump shot at point blank range for a double hit, followed by overcharged shot to get some distance between you again. Another option with groups is to open with jump shot to quickly get in the group, throw some turrets or mines down (depending on what other skills you are running) and use overcharged shot to get back out of the group. An engineer with a rifle should be constantly going in and out of melee range, using all the skills available.

I’m not saying the rifle is good for everything, but it certainly is a cohesive theme, and never has half the skills unused if played to it’s strengths.

Thats exactly what you can do … get close with 5, then 3 and 4 to go back. Or you can swap 3 and 5 if the enemy is so nice to come to you. And that over and over again. The weapon skills of the elite specs are usable and combined nearly always and in every order… it is hard to describe but I have the feeling that the elite specs are much more fleshed out while the core specs seems to be more like “whatever the player is playing we need at least something to support that”.

Another good example is the Longbow of the Warrior – half of the skills scales with normal damage half of it with conditions. So regardless what you skill some parts will always feel supbar.

LouWolfskin.3492:

I’d be happy if the old class lines would get turned into elite specs so that the almost duo class System we now have wouldn’t be possible anymore.

I completely second this. I’d be happy if they re-looked into pre HOT class mechanics to make them more interesting and effective. Right now it’s a no brainer that for most classes the elite spec is better. It’d be nice if the normal spec could be just as engaging and thematic. That along with making DPS between all classes roughly equal would be great.

Irijia.6073:

OriOri.8724:

So part of the reason that I want damage moved away from phantasms is because phantasms need to be able to retarget while in combat at the very least, and ideally they need to be able to persist even when you go out of combat. However, due to the large power damage some of them can put out, this can lead to a considerable advantage for the mesmer in the opening of a fight.

Seriously, if you got out 3 iZerkers or 3 iDuelists and retargeted to a new opponent, and all 3 attacked at the same time it would deal huge damage, too much damage for my liking. One of the best ways to balance that is to just reduce their base damage and give at least part of it back to the mesmer’s skills.

I do think that their high damage is one of the reasons that we aren’t allowed to have them persist at the moment. So lowering their damage is an integral step to allowing us to have persisting phantasms, or at the very least phantasms that retarget when their target is dead.

I can see where it would have a benefit for PvP. Perhaps I should have explained that I was thinking more in terms of PvE.

Yea for PvE phantasms could retain most of their current damage I guess.

“mesmers need a mechanic where it punishes you if you kill the target” …..

OriOri.8724:

So part of the reason that I want damage moved away from phantasms is because phantasms need to be able to retarget while in combat at the very least, and ideally they need to be able to persist even when you go out of combat. However, due to the large power damage some of them can put out, this can lead to a considerable advantage for the mesmer in the opening of a fight.

Seriously, if you got out 3 iZerkers or 3 iDuelists and retargeted to a new opponent, and all 3 attacked at the same time it would deal huge damage, too much damage for my liking. One of the best ways to balance that is to just reduce their base damage and give at least part of it back to the mesmer’s skills.

I do think that their high damage is one of the reasons that we aren’t allowed to have them persist at the moment. So lowering their damage is an integral step to allowing us to have persisting phantasms, or at the very least phantasms that retarget when their target is dead.

i prefer the phantasms dealing the bigest dmg it gives them value it should remain 40/60

Carighan.6758:

But, 4,5 years down the line, I feel this is finally bursting at the seams. Many many MMORPGs (and non MMOs) have eventually done massive reworks, either class-by-class, or all in one batch. For a reason. This is sometimes necessary. The game evolves, and some elements such as underlying class design cannot be adapted in small increments, rather the game design moves away from them and then eventually you do the “rough” break of redesigning them one after the other.

And every MMO that made such a thing died. Except WoW, which was sent into a decline it’s never recovered from. Only games that were struggling (FFXIV) before the rework ever benefited.

Plastazote.7914:

LouWolfskin.3492:

I’d be happy if the old class lines would get turned into elite specs so that the almost duo class System we now have wouldn’t be possible anymore.

I completely second this. I’d be happy if they re-looked into pre HOT class mechanics to make them more interesting and effective. Right now it’s a no brainer that for most classes the elite spec is better. It’d be nice if the normal spec could be just as engaging and thematic. That along with making DPS between all classes roughly equal would be great.

It’s not only that, a lot of classes use both lines to push them even further, mesmer is a great example for this (Condi mesmer is using both Illusions and Chronomancer).
And there-in lies the biggest problem, for me at least, people may complain that GW’s classes in 2 have no identity but they lost what little identity they had with elite-specs.

Sartharina.3542:

Carighan.6758:

But, 4,5 years down the line, I feel this is finally bursting at the seams. Many many MMORPGs (and non MMOs) have eventually done massive reworks, either class-by-class, or all in one batch. For a reason. This is sometimes necessary. The game evolves, and some elements such as underlying class design cannot be adapted in small increments, rather the game design moves away from them and then eventually you do the “rough” break of redesigning them one after the other.

And every MMO that made such a thing died. Except WoW, which was sent into a decline it’s never recovered from. Only games that were struggling (FFXIV) before the rework ever benefited.

Correlation does not imply causation (not that you gave any concrete examples anyway). For all you know, the MMOs that died after doing this were already going to die anyway, and this was a last ditch attempt to breath life into them, but was too little too late.