Guild Wars 2

I think all of the old Infinity Tools should also get the unbound Magic Gathering.

I just got the new set of tools and its really lovely, however i see no reason for people to buy any of the old sets now.

I have got quite a collection of tools (Trying to get all my caracthers with a diferent set of infinity tools) but i cant help to feel that feels silly the old sets not giving the unbound Magic as well.

Hope u adress this soon as there will be no reason for players to get any of the older tools and that feels like a waste to me.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unbound_Mining_Pick
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unbound_Logging_Axe
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unbound_Harvesting_Sickle

@Ayrilana: that doesn’t actually address what OP said in the slightest.

I also agreed with you Lend.7250 I feel bad for having buy the old set…
I dont care if their a none-infinite version in game, it just kill all the other infinite tools.

The reason I’ve bought the older tools, and have no qualms about buying these is because the different looks and themes. The fact that the sprocket mining pick gives sprockets or that these new ones give unbound magic make zero difference to me.

I make my characters according to themes/styles that interest me, and I definitely don’t rage over something that supposedly gives an edge over something sold before. I find all this raging “Oh these are gonna make everything else I have obsolete”, “Why bother buying any other tools?”, “Make new tools with infusion sockets…”; obnoxious and very childish.

Seriously, just stop. The reason my ele charr uses my molten tools it to complete a flame legion theme, I could care less that it doesn’t give bonuses. My Engi or any asura character uses the ‘O-matic’ tools, and druid uses the cosmic tools. Get the point?

So all this bickering about extra harvesting bonuses needs to stop, its getting kiddish.

Astralporing.1957:

@Ayrilana: that doesn’t actually address what OP said in the slightest.

It does because they can get the exact same bonus from those. It takes so long to break-even with the new infinite gathering tools that players that have other versions are better off using the ones from the LS3 maps.

Ayrilana.1396:

Astralporing.1957:

@Ayrilana: that doesn’t actually address what OP said in the slightest.

It does because they can get the exact same bonus from those. It takes so long to break-even with the new infinite gathering tools that players that have other versions are better off using the ones from the LS3 maps.

Read his post again, because you’re only making his point even stronger.

@mxz:
You might consider that other people might just have had different reasons about buying those. In fact, i’ll go out and guess that pure aestethics weren’t likely the primary reason most people buy infinite tools. I’d say that on average, QoL and utility would rate higher.

Not sure why having different priorities than your own is sudenly childish, however.

Astralporing.1957:

Ayrilana.1396:

Astralporing.1957:

@Ayrilana: that doesn’t actually address what OP said in the slightest.

It does because they can get the exact same bonus from those. It takes so long to break-even with the new infinite gathering tools that players that have other versions are better off using the ones from the LS3 maps.

Read his post again, because you’re only making his point even stronger.

No, I’m not. If players feel the need to equip every character with infinite tools, they can still go with whichever visually appeals to them. If they want unbound magic then there are vendors that sell ones with charges.

The cost to buy them with gold is so high that it’ll take a very long time to break even before you’re actually gaining anything from the addtional unbound magic. Even longer if you’re buying them for multiple characters.

And? what does that have to do with the old tools being objectively inferior to the new ones?

On one hand you have a tool that gives you a certain QoL. On other hand you have a tool that offers you the same QoL and a few extras. The second one is just plain better.

Astralporing.1957:

@mxz:
You might consider that other people might just have had different reasons about buying those. In fact, i’ll go out and guess that pure aestethics weren’t likely the primary reason most people buy infinite tools. I’d say that on average, QoL and utility would rate higher.

Not sure why having different priorities than your own is sudenly childish, however.

I have, but making multiple threads griping about why something isn’t the same as something before doesn’t pass as a good reason.

And why do you think there’s a skritt gathering tool, a cosmic gathering tool, fire, lightning, halloween, and many other themes? Because Anet is looking to give players a diverse aesthetic option. Not some plain looking tool, and yet people griped about too much flashy feel, so they went and made plain ones too. So yea, I’m quite sure a lot of it is according to how ‘the player’ feels depending on how something looks or how stylish it works. Yet that’s still no reason to lash out about the additional perks it gives over something else. People make their purchases knowing what they’re getting, then throw a fit because something new comes out that adds a little extra, so what.

Are people gonna start griping that the older armors don’t look as flashy as the legendary ones next or that they allow changing stats? Doubtful.

Astralporing.1957:

And? what does that have to do with the old tools being objectively inferior to the new ones?

On one hand you have a tool that gives you a certain QoL. On other hand you have a tool that offers you the same QoL and a few extras. The second one is just plain better.

Not if you’re trading off a more preferred visual effect instead for very tiny gains per swing.

I don’t know about OP, but they definitely take twice as much work to use. My old infinite tools just used ‘F’. The new tools use ‘F’ and then ‘Z’.

notebene.3190:

I don’t know about OP, but they definitely take twice as much work to use. My old infinite tools just used ‘F’. The new tools use ‘F’ and then ‘Z’.

‘Z’..? I’m using mine now and I just press ‘F’ and mats + unbound magic collects.

Astralporing.1957:

And? what does that have to do with the old tools being objectively inferior to the new ones?

On one hand you have a tool that gives you a certain QoL. On other hand you have a tool that offers you the same QoL and a few extras. The second one is just plain better.

• Cosmic pick: infinite uses, awesome animation.
• Mine-r-tron: infinite uses, incredibly annoying animation & sound
• Infinite unbound: infinite uses, meh animation, and unbound magic
• Consortium pick: infinite uses, decent animation, and sprockets
• Frostbitten pick: single use, decent animation, and snowflakes (yay?)

For me, one has a superior animation, one has a horrid one, one has a decent economic fringe benefit, one has a more useful (to me) economic fringe benefit. Which is of those is objectively superior? They are just different.

mXz.4512:

And why do you think there’s a skritt gathering tool, a cosmic gathering tool, fire, lightning, halloween, and many other themes? Because Anet is looking to give players a diverse aesthetic option.

And that’s all that it should be.

mXz.4512:

People make their purchases knowing what they’re getting

Yeah. I when i was buying mine, i knew (because that’s what Anet was saying at that time), that there won’t be any better versions of those tools in the future, and i can choose purely based on aestethics.

mXz.4512:

then throw a fit because something new comes out that adds a little extra, so what.

Did you see the backlash that introducing ascended armor generated? Do you see how people react to the idea, that new tiers that add “a little extra” should be introduced? It’s exactly the same situation. It’s just not everyone sees it, because there are no clearly visible stats to compare.

mXz.4512:

Are people gonna start griping that the older armors don’t look as flashy as the legendary ones next or that they allow changing stats? Doubtful.

First is about aestethics, so not relevant to what’s going on here. Second… yes, people actually are kittened off that the stat-swaping feature for armor is locked behind raids. Third, see my earlier response – this situation is more like introducing a new tier of armor.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

For me, one has a superior animation, one has a horrid one, one has a decent economic fringe benefit, one has a more useful (to me) economic fringe benefit. Which is of those is objectively superior? They are just different.

Aestethics is subjective and is different for everyone. If we compare their non-subjective qualities however, watchwork pick and unbound set are definitely better than all other options.
Besides, i don’t think anyone should be penalized for their aestethic choices. That’s the very reason why we have skin transmutations in the game.

Great for those people that purely play wvw and get their trinkets from reward tracks. With all the victory gathers you might just have enough UBM to purchase the trinkets without having to consume/salvage any currency.

mXz.4512:

notebene.3190:

I don’t know about OP, but they definitely take twice as much work to use. My old infinite tools just used ‘F’. The new tools use ‘F’ and then ‘Z’.

‘Z’..? I’m using mine now and I just press ‘F’ and mats + unbound magic collects.

They force your weapons to unsheathe. The old ones do not do that, nor do regular tools, or any other karma or special tool I’ve used.

I bought the unbreakable tools (the unskinned ones) a few months ago. I never had done much harvesting but after it became clear I would need to do a lot in LS3 I decided it was worth it. Right after that, before I even had a chance to use them (I was still using up what was equipped) I realized the UM tools were worthwhile so they just sat in 3 shared slots and got almost no use. Cue the new unlimited UM tools, which I bought. Now it is too late to return the original tools or even give them to an alt (I asked). I would happily have paid for a UM upgrade and foregone the animations.

If gathering from lots of nodes is part of your daily routine, and will continue to be so into the far future, the new infinite UM tools may be worth it.

If you don’t have gathering tools at all, the new infinite UM tools would be worth it.

For all other cases, it’s not worth it from a cost:value perspective. Players that casually gather from nodes won’t see much of an increase in UM. Those going out of their way specifically to gather more are wasting they time as Bitterfrost Frontier is more efficient and the 5-7 minutes it takes to run a character through the map would likely yield more than a player would earn during a day’s play session of gathering.

This is all from the aspect of getting a bonus from gathering. There are still more reasons to go for the other tools such as for animations or for those that are quicker. Alll of those, including the value of the bonuses, are subjective. What matters to one person won’t necessarily matter to another. Would everyone that values the new tools specifically because of the UM feel the same if it were broken spoons instead? How about blade shards? Probably not.

Ayrilana.1396:

Astralporing.1957:

And? what does that have to do with the old tools being objectively inferior to the new ones?

On one hand you have a tool that gives you a certain QoL. On other hand you have a tool that offers you the same QoL and a few extras. The second one is just plain better.

Not if you’re trading off a more preferred visual effect instead for very tiny gains per swing.

I bought the watchwork only for the “tiny gain” then I bought 2 other infinite random tools (not even caring about their skin) just because there wasn’t any infinite “tiny gain” tool yet. Now I feel quite scammed by anet…

Astralporing.1957:

And? what does that have to do with the old tools being objectively inferior to the new ones?

On one hand you have a tool that gives you a certain QoL. On other hand you have a tool that offers you the same QoL and a few extras. The second one is just plain better.

I noticed that people often mind when someone comes, requesting changes that are often big on impact and/or implementation, being very short-sighted, because of “I”, “me” and “mine”.

its not wrong to want the ability to gain (unbound magik, watchworks, etc) while using a tool that you like the looks of.

i really liked the ascended zerk sword that just dropped. but man i don’t like the looks of it. be cool if there was a system that let me keep the stats, abilities (sigils), etc of my new sword but let me skin it to look like my favorite sword skin.

alternatively, i rly like my snowflakes flying around me, but i wish i could have the new hound shoulder skin that was added to the game. if only we had a way to slot affects like the snowfall so that i could do both, that’d be nice.

i kno these are radical ideas, but

Ayrilana.1396:

This is all from the aspect of getting a bonus from gathering. There are still more reasons to go for the other tools such as for animations or for those that are quicker. Alll of those, including the value of the bonuses, are subjective. What matters to one person won’t necessarily matter to another. Would everyone that values the new tools specifically because of the UM feel the same if it were broken spoons instead? How about blade shards? Probably not.

Aesthetics should be compared to aesthetics. Because everyone has different tastes.

This entire games is built around the idea of horizontal progression, and the idea that function or power is all the same. But we can customize our aesthetics .

My end game sword is the same functionally as your end game sword. But it looks different.

My end game armor is the same functionally as your end game armor But it looks different.

My wings, My mail carrier, my finisher all work the same as yours. But they look different.

My infinity tool however is just flat out better than yours, doing what yours can do and more. Also it looks different.

The OP is talking about function. Everything in the game is set up so that we all have the same power and function but can chose how we like the look of that power to be displayed. The infinity gathering tools are just skins, skins and re-skins of the same object, a tool that “replaces your ________ on any character. It has unlimited uses and works on all _______ nodes”

The new infinity tools run counter to this philosophy. As far as I’m concerned it is no different than if they put in a new tier of legendary weapons that had more sigil slots, if they added new gliding skins that increased glide endurance by 100%, or if they added new finishers that could hit multiple opponents. The horizontal progression is broken.

Now we have a new tier of tools, and infinite tools that are flat out better functionally than those that we had before.

Even if I had infinite karma (which I do not, I keep buying things with it) I would consider it worth it. On average, my characters would typically have at least 10 slots taken up with UM tools. It is like I got 8 bag slots, which costs more than the tools.

It’s my opinion that these items were already in-game, as 25 charge gathering tools bought with karma. Now that there’s an infinite version of the tool available we do not get more UM or other resources than the people already could. As a result, the ONLY thing you buy is it’s unbreakability, nothing else. These items aren’t pay to win, they aren’t op, they are only “don’t have to revisit the vendor every 25 gatherings”

mXz.4512:

The reason I’ve bought the older tools, and have no qualms about buying these is because the different looks and themes. The fact that the sprocket mining pick gives sprockets or that these new ones give unbound magic make zero difference to me.

I make my characters according to themes/styles that interest me, and I definitely don’t rage over something that supposedly gives an edge over something sold before. I find all this raging “Oh these are gonna make everything else I have obsolete”, “Why bother buying any other tools?”, “Make new tools with infusion sockets…”; obnoxious and very childish.

Seriously, just stop. The reason my ele charr uses my molten tools it to complete a flame legion theme, I could care less that it doesn’t give bonuses. My Engi or any asura character uses the ‘O-matic’ tools, and druid uses the cosmic tools. Get the point?

So all this bickering about extra harvesting bonuses needs to stop, its getting kiddish.

No you stop!

It is unreasonable to demand consumers weigh only one feature of a multi-feature item because it is irrational to ignore all features.

It is immature to insist that all consumers should place the highest value where you find greatest value.

It is counter productive to advocate putting minimum or no value on the new feature the studio has rolled out in the effort to promote retail sales.

Gathering tools, as a type of gear, have a lot of potential to deliver monetizeable variety and function. Imo, their evolution has resulted in a homunculus.

The NPC marketplace for unbound magic is quite rich and players will be able to find persistent value in the currency. As well, where unbound magic intersects with gold (magic-wrapped packet), it is more resilient to changes in the overall game and UM will maintain its gold value better than snowflakes or sprockets. So far so good.

Harvesting tools that provide the UM buff can be had in game, eliminating the potential for P2W. All good here.

Infinite gathering tools without a buff only provide a convenience. That’s good too.

Combine them and it gets a bit uglier. Buffed tools that provide a currency bonus and are available in-game, combined with a rich reward marketplace to spend that currency will decrease the demand for any infinite gathering tools without the currency buff. Dear studio, you spent months in that position and players spent months debating whether to use the infinite gathering tools they already had or using the karma tools; or debating whether ‘now’ was the right time to invest in infinite gathering tools.

Imo, if the studio wants to gain more from infinite gathering tools, they will have to rework how they are designed, or every time we see something new added the humunculus will wail, “Retail Shenanigans!”

Astralporing.1957:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

For me, one has a superior animation, one has a horrid one, one has a decent economic fringe benefit, one has a more useful (to me) economic fringe benefit. Which is of those is objectively superior? They are just different.

Aestethics is subjective and is different for everyone. If we compare their non-subjective qualities however, watchwork pick and unbound set are definitely better than all other options.
Besides, i don’t think anyone should be penalized for their aestethic choices. That’s the very reason why we have skin transmutations in the game.

You are right. Aesthetics is subjective. That is exactly why some people will still be happy buying older sets. They like the look and don’t care about the added bonus.

Sometimes your subjective desire outweighs objective positives.

Take two cars. Both have identical warranties, features, paint and body types. Everything is the same but… The only differences are that one is a luxury brand and the other is not and the luxury brand costs twice as much. Some people will buy the luxury brand even though both cars are identical in looks, guarantee, and performance because that is the one they desire. The other is objectively the better bargain, but it was passed up for a label.

Well… i do it by Character Themes as well… My Engi got the O-tron Tools, My Druid the Flutes, My Revenant the cosmic set, My Balthazar Themed warrior got the Molten tools, Got the Skritt on Thief (cant wait to get the other tools skritt themed to complete my thief), waiting for the necrotic tools for my necromancer to come back to shop to get it, and now my Ele got this new tool set and it fits her right on the spot.

I do however see lil reason now to log on any other but my Elementalist for the daily farm since i get a bonus on unbound Magic.

Makes no sense to me since the older tools, if u get the all 3 tools are more expensive than the new ones, and yet they dont give that bonus Unbound Magic.

Ultimately i think the Devs are hurting themselves cause why would anyone buy any of the older tools now? Those more hardcorish that want to keep all the characters themed will still do it i suppose but the Grand vast majority doesnt give a *.

There is also another boom on the new toolset, the gathering tool (Scythe) u now only need to press F one time to gather 3 times (u can confirm this in Maxed Guild Halls where the Plant nodes have 3 hits).

I see little harm giving the same perks to the older Tool sets. And more to gain by giving it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6d22lg/data_are_the_new_unbound_magic_unlimited_tools/

Menadena.7482:

I bought the unbreakable tools (the unskinned ones) a few months ago. I never had done much harvesting but after it became clear I would need to do a lot in LS3 I decided it was worth it. Right after that, before I even had a chance to use them (I was still using up what was equipped) I realized the UM tools were worthwhile so they just sat in 3 shared slots and got almost no use. Cue the new unlimited UM tools, which I bought. Now it is too late to return the original tools or even give them to an alt (I asked). I would happily have paid for a UM upgrade and foregone the animations.

Again, why can’t you give Account-bound tools to an alt?

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Menadena.7482:

I bought the unbreakable tools (the unskinned ones) a few months ago. I never had done much harvesting but after it became clear I would need to do a lot in LS3 I decided it was worth it. Right after that, before I even had a chance to use them (I was still using up what was equipped) I realized the UM tools were worthwhile so they just sat in 3 shared slots and got almost no use. Cue the new unlimited UM tools, which I bought. Now it is too late to return the original tools or even give them to an alt (I asked). I would happily have paid for a UM upgrade and foregone the animations.

Again, why can’t you give Account-bound tools to an alt?

I think they’re talking about the unbound magic tools bought with karma, which are soulbound. Unless I read the post wrong.

No, the poster clarified what he/she was talking about in a different thread. When they say ‘alt’, they mean second account. Not the term most of us use for second account, so somewhat unclear what was meant.

jheryn.8390:

Astralporing.1957:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

For me, one has a superior animation, one has a horrid one, one has a decent economic fringe benefit, one has a more useful (to me) economic fringe benefit. Which is of those is objectively superior? They are just different.

Aestethics is subjective and is different for everyone. If we compare their non-subjective qualities however, watchwork pick and unbound set are definitely better than all other options.
Besides, i don’t think anyone should be penalized for their aestethic choices. That’s the very reason why we have skin transmutations in the game.

You are right. Aesthetics is subjective. That is exactly why some people will still be happy buying older sets. They like the look and don’t care about the added bonus.

Then not having this bonus would not have impacted them in the slightest, right?

Astralporing.1957:

jheryn.8390:

Astralporing.1957:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

For me, one has a superior animation, one has a horrid one, one has a decent economic fringe benefit, one has a more useful (to me) economic fringe benefit. Which is of those is objectively superior? They are just different.

Aestethics is subjective and is different for everyone. If we compare their non-subjective qualities however, watchwork pick and unbound set are definitely better than all other options.
Besides, i don’t think anyone should be penalized for their aestethic choices. That’s the very reason why we have skin transmutations in the game.

You are right. Aesthetics is subjective. That is exactly why some people will still be happy buying older sets. They like the look and don’t care about the added bonus.

Then not having this bonus would not have impacted them in the slightest, right?

That is the point. Whether they have the bonus or not, people will still buy them.

Even for the ones I purchased that I don’t necessarily care about the aesthetics, I used them and got benefit from them for a long time. I’m not going to complain about what is in the past.

It’s like buying a car and two years later they come out with the same model that has more features. You don’t go to the dealer and ask them to retro fit you old car with the new features.

While I agree that the time it would take to “recoup your losses” through the Watchwork and Unbound Magic tools is an extremely long time, I nonetheless feel that putting players in a position where they have to make a choice between aesthetics and a tangible monetary reward, however tiny, is a bad decision on ANet’s part. I didn’t approve of it back when the Watchwork Pick came out, but it seemed like ANet had decided to leave it be after that as no more new tools came out, so I was willing to let it slide as a once-off experiment.

But now, here are three new tools that offer additional rewards, and what’s more, the Unbound Tools are actually considerably different to normal tools in terms of their harvesting speed:

1. The Mining tool actually harvests 4 times, compared to the usual 3, all in one quick burst near the end of the animation.

2. The Logging tool likewise also harvests 4 times, compared to the usual 3, although the cast time is identical to normal logging tools.

3. The Harvesting tool actually harvests 3 strikes in a single go. You won’t see any difference on normal plant nodes in the wild, but if you’re, say, harvesting from your guild hall plant nodes, it will actually harvest all 3 strikes at once, saving you having to do it three times.

With all this in mind, it DOES seem unfair that players who bought previous tools based purely on aesthetics, are now at a disadvantage on two fronts: speed, and additional rewards.

ANet doesn’t HAVE to do anything about this situation, but I do think it would be much appreciated by many players if they were to do either one of the following:

A) Allow players to “trade in” old/unwanted gem store purchases at 50% of the original purchase price, but these refunded gems MUST be immediately put towards the purchase of a new gem store item. (This prevents the economy from getting swamped with sudden dumps of gold whenever new offerings get released, and the 50% deduction I feel is a fair tradeoff so that ANet doesn’t see a complete drop in gem sales.)

B) A better (imo) but more complicated solution is to update the gathering tools so that every unlimited tool comes with an upgrade slot, into which you can put a crafted essence that determines what bonus reward you get when using the tool. (The Watchwork Pick and Unbound tools already come with essences pre-inserted.) Bonus rewards could include rare crafting materials (determined by the tier of the node you are harvesting), festive materials (snowflakes, Halloween mats), and map currencies. This method means that you can use whatever skin you’d like for your harvesting tools (indeed, there could even be a wardrobe specifically for tools) and still get the bonus reward of your choice.

Lokki.1092:

Aesthetics should be compared to aesthetics. Because everyone has different tastes.

Yes, you can compare aesthetics of one thing to the aesthetics of another. Just like how I compare the aesthetics of various floor samples. However, when deciding to purchase something, you don’t focus on just one aspect of an item but everything.

Lokki.1092:

This entire games is built around the idea of horizontal progression, and the idea that function or power is all the same. But we can customize our aesthetics .

…

My infinity tool however is just flat out better than yours, doing what yours can do and more. Also it looks different.

Mine is better than yours because it as a more appealing effect. Mine is better than yours because it gathers quicker than yours. What’s ‘better’ is subjective.

What one player values, others pay not value. How many people would jump at the chance of a set of gathering tools that gave additional broken spoons over one that looked incredible to them? How about tools which gathered quicker? It’s all subjective. Just because one item offers something that others don’t, doesn’t all of a sudden make it superior.

Lokki.1092:

The OP is talking about function. Everything in the game is set up so that we all have the same power and function but can chose how we like the look of that power to be displayed. The infinity gathering tools are just skins, skins and re-skins of the same object, a tool that “replaces your ________ on any character. It has unlimited uses and works on all _______ nodes”

The new infinity tools run counter to this philosophy. As far as I’m concerned it is no different than if they put in a new tier of legendary weapons that had more sigil slots, if they added new gliding skins that increased glide endurance by 100%, or if they added new finishers that could hit multiple opponents. The horizontal progression is broken.

Now we have a new tier of tools, and infinite tools that are flat out better functionally than those that we had before.

I know full well what the OP is complaining about and I disagree with it being an issue. There’s more to the value of an item than just its function. If that wasn’t the case then everyone would choose the a set that gave out snowflakes. Do you think that everyone would choose that? No. Not everyone values additional items over everything else. We’re looking at the value of the tool(s) overall and not just arbitrarily focusing on one aspect while ignoring everything else.

Not to mention that the break-even for those tools, if bought with gold, is around 75K nodes. If you farmed a node every 10 seconds, it would take you 8.7 days of non-stop farming to break-even. During that time, had you spent that amount of game time farming Bitterfrost instead, you’d have earned 1.25M unbound magic which is about three times more. You’re spending gold, or giving up the opportunity for gold, in order to have an inferior way to obtain UM or to get them passively in which you’re likely to never break even.

Ayrilana.1396:

Mine is better than yours because it as a more appealing effect. Mine is better than yours because it gathers quicker than yours. What’s ‘better’ is subjective.

No. “more appealing effect” is subjective. Gathering speed and bonus drops are not subjective. You can argue about how much they’re better, but you cannot argue if they’re better.

jheryn.8390:

Astralporing.1957:

jheryn.8390:

Astralporing.1957:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

For me, one has a superior animation, one has a horrid one, one has a decent economic fringe benefit, one has a more useful (to me) economic fringe benefit. Which is of those is objectively superior? They are just different.

Aestethics is subjective and is different for everyone. If we compare their non-subjective qualities however, watchwork pick and unbound set are definitely better than all other options.
Besides, i don’t think anyone should be penalized for their aestethic choices. That’s the very reason why we have skin transmutations in the game.

You are right. Aesthetics is subjective. That is exactly why some people will still be happy buying older sets. They like the look and don’t care about the added bonus.

Then not having this bonus would not have impacted them in the slightest, right?

That is the point. Whether they have the bonus or not, people will still buy them.

some people will still buy them. For others, those that are after utility, the old tools suddenly became worthless. For some, the worth of tools they already had just went down.

It’s the same as with new tier of gear. You’re much more likely to pay a lot/invest a lot of effort into a gear set if you expect it to remain top tier forever, than if you knew it will be replaced by a better one at some point.

jheryn.8390:

Even for the ones I purchased that I don’t necessarily care about the aesthetics, I used them and got benefit from them for a long time. I’m not going to complain about what is in the past.

I am, because my purchase was based on the assumption that there will never be a better set of tools. And that assumption was a result of explicit dev statement. People were concerned about this possibility originally, and did ask about it. If at that time Anet responded with their classic “it’s not off the table” answer, less people would have decided to buy those tools.

jheryn.8390:

It’s like buying a car and two years later they come out with the same model that has more features. You don’t go to the dealer and ask them to retro fit you old car with the new features.

Car isn’t an infinite tool, and it’s implicity expected to eventually be replaced and/or improved on. With infinite tools there was supposed to never be a better model. Those expectations were part of the price (many people would not have paid as much for a tool they knew would be obsoleted at some point in the future).

my only regret is that my main character is themed as a destroyer (primordial weapons, hellfire/citadel armor, burning backpack, etc)
So I used the Molten Gathering tools because of the fire.
My only regret is that now I shoot glittering light instead of fire…
but it is my main..
I kinda wished the animation and the bonus were separate things. You know you buy a gathering tool, and you get the skinned unbreakable item, and then you unlock the ability to gather UM, or Sprockets when gathering with any infinite tool on any character.

Astralporing.1957:

Ayrilana.1396:

Mine is better than yours because it as a more appealing effect. Mine is better than yours because it gathers quicker than yours. What’s ‘better’ is subjective.

No. “more appealing effect” is subjective. Gathering speed and bonus drops are not subjective. You can argue about how much they’re better, but you cannot argue if they’re better.

Something is only ‘better’ if it’s desirable. Selling two cars with differing appearances only, but including a free plastic sandwich bag with one, doesn’t make that one better than the other based on the free item. Selling game system packages with a lot of stuff that you don’t want, nor would ever use, doesn’t make it better than one that doesn’t contain all of that.

You’re still focusing on just a single aspect of an item while ignoring everything else. Everything about a specific item has a value. Whether or not it is of value will vary from person to person. I personally could care less about the UM so a harvesting sickle with a cool animation is better to me.

Astralporing.1957:

some people will still buy them. For others, those that are after utility, the old tools suddenly became worthless. For some, the worth of tools they already had just went down.

Yes some will. What does it cost Anet to keep them around to let those who want them still buy them?

Worthless? They still are able to harvest infinitely. If they feel they are worthless they have a strange sense of worth.

Astralporing.1957:

It’s the same as with new tier of gear. You’re much more likely to pay a lot/invest a lot of effort into a gear set if you expect it to remain top tier forever, than if you knew it will be replaced by a better one at some point.

Well, if you look at it that way, you may be playing with sub-par gear for years until the “next best thing” arrives.

Astralporing.1957:

jheryn.8390:

Even for the ones I purchased that I don’t necessarily care about the aesthetics, I used them and got benefit from them for a long time. I’m not going to complain about what is in the past.

I am, because my purchase was based on the assumption that there will never be a better set of tools. And that assumption was a result of explicit dev statement. People were concerned about this possibility originally, and did ask about it. If at that time Anet responded with their classic “it’s not off the table” answer, less people would have decided to buy those tools.

The most important word in that whole passage is assumption. And yes they did make that statement. I remember. They have also made statements about making things for sale you could also get in the game. You can get harvesting tools in game that have the same unbound magic bonus as the infinite tools. They cost karma instead of gems and have a limited number of uses. They still have the same function. You don’t have to buy gems to get the harvesting bonuses. So they just made infinite tools that do something you can already get in game.

As far as the car analogy, it is not wrong. You do expect to get a new car over a course of time, you do not expect to get a new car every time the model you have is upgraded.

Ayrilana.1396:

Mine is better than yours because it as a more appealing effect. Mine is better than yours because it gathers quicker than yours. What’s ‘better’ is subjective.

You are mixing up subjective with objective.

Tool A
Tool B

Tool A looks like fire.
Tool B looks like water.
Which of them looks better is based on personal preference and is therefore subjective. You like Water, I like fire. Who is right? Neither, it’s subjective.

Tool A gathers faster.
Tool B gathers slower.
This is not a subjective comparison. Objectively Tool A is better at gathering speeds.

Tool A gathers basic items, and extra (valuable) items.
Tool B only gathers basic items.
This is again not a subjective comparison. Objectively Tool A is better at gathering items.

You may feel that subjectively, Tool B looks better than Tool A, and that is fine, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But Objectively, Tool A is better at its job of gathering resources.

No matter what subjective values we place on aesthetics, the Unbound Magic Set gathers faster and gets more resources than the other infinite use gathering tools. the Fused Molten Sickle is simply functionally inferior to the Unbound Magic Harvesting Blast. If someone purchased the Fused Molten Sickle it is not unreasonable for them to be upset that they now have an inferior infinite gathering tool.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Menadena.7482:

I bought the unbreakable tools (the unskinned ones) a few months ago. I never had done much harvesting but after it became clear I would need to do a lot in LS3 I decided it was worth it. Right after that, before I even had a chance to use them (I was still using up what was equipped) I realized the UM tools were worthwhile so they just sat in 3 shared slots and got almost no use. Cue the new unlimited UM tools, which I bought. Now it is too late to return the original tools or even give them to an alt (I asked). I would happily have paid for a UM upgrade and foregone the animations.

Again, why can’t you give Account-bound tools to an alt?

What would be the point of that? To say I can do it? My other characters have a choice to gather with the standard unbreakable tools or ones with an effect that ALSO gives them UM. Why on earth would I ever not just open up my inventory window and do the 3 clicks to switch tools?

If UM was completely useless then we are just talking about the effect but that is not the case.

Ayrilana.1396:

Something is only ‘better’ if it’s desirable.

Admittedly, this quote is taken out of context but I don’t think it matters.

Plenty of people desire cigarettes. Are cigarettes ‘better’? Heroin? Slaves?
In economics value is defined as the amount someone is willing to pay for something, or more accurately how much someone is willing to work for something with currency used as abstracted work. It is tediously obvious that some players will find value in a product or product line no matter how that product is designed or the product line is organized. We live in a world were people are willing to pay for objectively inferior products to the extreme of paying for products that shorten their lives. Do not take the above as a position on regulation or the mentioned products as analogs for gathering tools. I am just demonstrating that there is a distinction between value and rational self-interest.

Gathering tools have become more complex, there are objectively more features available. In the context of player value finding, there are theoretically more ways for players to find value; more possible paths when navigating the gathering tool marketplace. How those features are bundled describes how willing the supplier is to limit the number of possible value finding paths. There isn’t a formula to objectively measure how many paths should be available. Imo, the number of paths a supplier makes available describes the supplier’s personality. Imo, a supplier that holds a monopoly on innovation, production technology (recipes) and sells to ‘fans’ who are more willing to accept terms than the general population, is always operating close to the threshold of having a manipulative personality.

Imo, the combination of available gathering tool features and how they are bundled describes a supplier personality that values retail strategy above variation in player value finding. I understand that it is possible to unintentionally end up in that situation. Increasing the number of features pushes you towards that situation.

How a supplier communicates its value proposition is also a personality trait, perhaps more.

Astralporing, you’re claiming the studio made a formal statement to the effect that there would be no more gathering tool buffs. Can you or anyone else provide that statement?

jheryn.8390:

Astralporing.1957:

some people will still buy them. For others, those that are after utility, the old tools suddenly became worthless. For some, the worth of tools they already had just went down.

Yes some will. What does it cost Anet to keep them around to let those who want them still buy them?

It costs them decrease of purchases by everyone else.

jheryn.8390:

Worthless? They still are able to harvest infinitely. If they feel they are worthless they have a strange sense of worth.

If you are in this for utility, and you can choose between two tools, both of which cost the same but one of which is functionally superior to the other, why would you ever pick the other one?

jheryn.8390:

Astralporing.1957:

It’s the same as with new tier of gear. You’re much more likely to pay a lot/invest a lot of effort into a gear set if you expect it to remain top tier forever, than if you knew it will be replaced by a better one at some point.

Well, if you look at it that way, you may be playing with sub-par gear for years until the “next best thing” arrives.

I simply wouldn’t have bought any.

jheryn.8390:

The most important word in that whole passage is assumption. And yes they did make that statement. I remember. They have also made statements about making things for sale you could also get in the game.

Do you think that somehow that second statement should give them a pass on breaking the first one? Because i don’t.

I too wish there was some type of exchange policy. On April 12, 2017 I bought the Gathering Infinite Basic Pack. Forty-two days later I found out the new tools weren’t just cosmetic. I asked to exchange the tools I purchased and pay the difference. I was advised, "The Gathering Infinite Basic Pack you purchased from the gem store greatly exceeds our allowed timeframe for gem refunds. "

I don’t buy anything for looks. I buy bank slots, shared inventory slots, Living World Chapters and things that help me play the game. I am on a limited income and must save up for the things I want. For me, the Infinite Tools where convenient and I don’t have to be concerned with carrying a back up set of tools

I’ve been trying to get unbound magic to get ascended trinkets and back. A partial refund and a refund that must be used immediately in the store was mentioned. Great ideas!

(edited for grammar and spelling)

Zaxares.5419:

While I agree that the time it would take to “recoup your losses” through the Watchwork and Unbound Magic tools is an extremely long time, I nonetheless feel that putting players in a position where they have to make a choice between aesthetics and a tangible monetary reward, however tiny, is a bad decision on ANet’s part. I didn’t approve of it back when the Watchwork Pick came out, but it seemed like ANet had decided to leave it be after that as no more new tools came out, so I was willing to let it slide as a once-off experiment.

But now, here are three new tools that offer additional rewards, and what’s more, the Unbound Tools are actually considerably different to normal tools in terms of their harvesting speed:

1. The Mining tool actually harvests 4 times, compared to the usual 3, all in one quick burst near the end of the animation.

2. The Logging tool likewise also harvests 4 times, compared to the usual 3, although the cast time is identical to normal logging tools.

3. The Harvesting tool actually harvests 3 strikes in a single go. You won’t see any difference on normal plant nodes in the wild, but if you’re, say, harvesting from your guild hall plant nodes, it will actually harvest all 3 strikes at once, saving you having to do it three times.

These are the real issues, I would think, the UBM is sorta whatever.

I’ve been slightly concerned that some tools gather more, or are more efficient and would like some balance in that regards.

Psientist.6437:

Astralporing, you’re claiming the studio made a formal statement to the effect that there would be no more gathering tool buffs. Can you or anyone else provide that statement?

Not quite. That statement i speak of is older than watchwork pick, and was made at the time the first infinite tool (molten pickaxe) appeared. At that time the cost was considered to be quite high, so people that considered buying it were asking if they can be sure that if it always remain the best mining option. The answer was, that it would. To be honest, the thing people were most concerned then was a possibility of tier 7 nodes, and whether the tools will cover those as well, but the questions were a bit more general. And so was the answer, as far as i remember.

That statement was one of the reasons behind watchwork pick outrage, by the way.

(unfortunately i haven’t found it, it’s rather old at the moment and the search function at this forum is not helping).

Astralporing.1957:

jheryn.8390:

Yes some will. What does it cost Anet to keep them around to let those who want them still buy them?

It costs them decrease of purchases by everyone else.

It doesn’t. They are just lines of code they put into the TP. If they sell they make money, if most people buy the new ones, then they still make money. No decrease.

Astralporing.1957:

If you are in this for utility, and you can choose between two tools, both of which cost the same but one of which is functionally superior to the other, why would you ever pick the other one?

Again, it isn’t just about utility. To you yes. To others, maybe no.

jheryn.8390:

Astralporing.1957:

It’s the same as with new tier of gear. You’re much more likely to pay a lot/invest a lot of effort into a gear set if you expect it to remain top tier forever, than if you knew it will be replaced by a better one at some point.

Well, if you look at it that way, you may be playing with sub-par gear for years until the “next best thing” arrives.

I simply wouldn’t have bought any.

Astralporing.1957:

jheryn.8390:

The most important word in that whole passage is assumption. And yes they did make that statement. I remember. They have also made statements about making things for sale you could also get in the game.

Do you think that somehow that second statement should give them a pass on breaking the first one? Because i don’t.

I believe those statements were in the same time period. They said they do what they did with the watchwork mining pick again that it was a mistake. They did say they would have no problem recreating something you could get in game. You can get unbound magic harvesting tools in game.

The new tools are just permanent versions of the ones you can buy for karma. They did not make something that gives advantage only buy purchasing it like the watchwork mining pick. You can get the same advantage for karma. You want a permanent version, you have to pay. No P2W like the mining pick. You have options.

Lokki.1092:

Ayrilana.1396:

Mine is better than yours because it as a more appealing effect. Mine is better than yours because it gathers quicker than yours. What’s ‘better’ is subjective.

You are mixing up subjective with objective.

Tool A
Tool B

Tool A looks like fire.
Tool B looks like water.
Which of them looks better is based on personal preference and is therefore subjective. You like Water, I like fire. Who is right? Neither, it’s subjective.

Tool A gathers faster.
Tool B gathers slower.
This is not a subjective comparison. Objectively Tool A is better at gathering speeds.

Tool A gathers basic items, and extra (valuable) items.
Tool B only gathers basic items.
This is again not a subjective comparison. Objectively Tool A is better at gathering items.

You may feel that subjectively, Tool B looks better than Tool A, and that is fine, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But Objectively, Tool A is better at its job of gathering resources.

No matter what subjective values we place on aesthetics, the Unbound Magic Set gathers faster and gets more resources than the other infinite use gathering tools. the Fused Molten Sickle is simply functionally inferior to the Unbound Magic Harvesting Blast. If someone purchased the Fused Molten Sickle it is not unreasonable for them to be upset that they now have an inferior infinite gathering tool.

I’m not mixing them up. You’re focusing solely on one aspect of them, which may or may not matter to someone over the visuals, and claiming it to be better because of it.

Psientist.6437:

Ayrilana.1396:

Something is only ‘better’ if it’s desirable.

Admittedly, this quote is taken out of context but I don’t think it matters.

Plenty of people desire cigarettes. Are cigarettes ‘better’? Heroin? Slaves?

Logical fallacy and I’m not going to address it beyond this sentence.

Psientist.6437:

In economics value is defined as the amount someone is willing to pay for something, or more accurately how much someone is willing to work for something with currency used as abstracted work. It is tediously obvious that some players will find value in a product or product line no matter how that product is designed or the product line is organized. We live in a world were people are willing to pay for objectively inferior products to the extreme of paying for products that shorten their lives. Do not take the above as a position on regulation or the mentioned products as analogs for gathering tools. I am just demonstrating that there is a distinction between value and rational self-interest.

A large part of this game is centered around cosmetics. Aesthetics have value and are part of what people use to determine whether the item itself is more valuable than another. An item that’s faster, or gives bonuses, are two other things that add value to an item. All of these are used to determine whether one item is better to the person over another.

Just because you value something as being more important, such as bonus items, doesn’t mean that someone else feels the same. Which item is better is solely on the player.