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Posted by: Donari.5237

Donari.5237

Addressing the forum bug concern.

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

Simple stuff here.

Any item scrolls and any spare points left over for each character, are getting converted into currency. The difference between 200 stocked points + 200 scrolls and 400 stocked points is nil. It all becomes 400 spirit shards.

If the skill points have been spent, they’re gone. So if you bought your way into getting skills and traits, no refund.

The number of Hero Points will be based on level (5/level after a certain point, if I recall right), and one for each hero challenge completed. That’s it. As of right now, level 80 and 65 hero challenges is projected to be enough for all core competencies.

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

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Posted by: Stars.2179

Stars.2179

Simple stuff here.

Any item scrolls and any spare points left over for each character, are getting converted into currency. The difference between 200 stocked points + 200 scrolls and 400 stocked points is nil. It all becomes 400 spirit shards.

If the skill points have been spent, they’re gone. So if you bought your way into getting skills and traits, no refund.

The number of Hero Points will be based on level (5/level after a certain point, if I recall right), and one for each hero challenge completed. That’s it. As of right now, level 80 and 65 hero challenges is projected to be enough for all core competencies.

That’s not what Donari seems to imply here. What Donari seems to imply is that if you have 200 stocked points + 200 scroll points, you only get 200 spirit shards since 200 “skill challenges” will be subtracted out to become “hero points”

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Posted by: Stars.2179

Stars.2179

I doubt they would go the route of trying to figure out which skill points came from what source.

Currently, you get, what, 76 skill points from leveling? And I think you’re supposed to get 400 hero points from leveling in the reworked system? So the points from leveling don’t convert 1-for-1, but the points from skill challenges do. So, if they wanted to convert skill points into hero points, they have to subtract 76 skill points and convert that into 400 hero points, then subtract all of your completed skill challenges from your remaining skill points and convert those directly into hero points. And since you probably spent all the skill points you got leveling on skills, they’ll have to refund all your skill points from your skills first. And what if you leveled a character to 80 before the NPE? Now they need to subtract 79 skill points instead. And if a bug crops up that mistakes a post-NPE character for a pre-NPE one, you start cheating players out of spirit shards they earned. And if a player spent all their skill points on mystic forge items instead of buying skills, what do you do? Do they get negative spirit shards?

Frankly, that’s a lot of work that doesn’t really gain anyone anything. It would be a much easier solution to simply look at a character’s level and completed skill challenges, and give them the appropriate number of hero points. Then look at a character’s unspent skill points and unused scrolls of knowledge, and convert those all into spirit shards. Fewer calculations and less possibility for bugs to screw up how many spirit shards a given character should have since the two sets of points will be considered independently, and everyone has exactly how many spirit shards/skill points to spend on mystic forge items as they had before the update. The only question at that point is whether you refund skill points spent on skills.

If I were a software developer at ArenaNet, I know which solution I would have pushed for.

This is the solution that I would have pushed for as well as what Ariyalana implies but that’s not the case here.

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Posted by: Knighthonor.4061

Knighthonor.4061

So we not losing skills/ utilities right? Thats my main issue with this confusion.

Define “losing.” All of the current utilities and traits are being massively reworked and reorganized. We’re all losing all of them, essentially.

Then we get to buy the new versions. If we have level 80 + 65 skill challenges complete, we can buy the new ones right away, regardless of whether we had the old ones or not.

Bull kitties! !! You know what i meant! Losing skills is losing skills. Nobody liked that when the trait system first changed. Now us max levels also lose skills. Bull kittens! !

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Posted by: Donari.5237

Donari.5237

Not exactly. Points from levels and points from challenges become Hero Points. Any points you have past that become shards.

If you’ve previously spent the points on Miyani or on unlocking utilities or traits, yeah, they’re gone, you bought something with them. What I’ve been responding to is the concern that there will be “wasted” points if they’re not spent in advance of the change. And there it looks like (just my interpretation based on a lot of reading and watching streams, I’m not a theorycrafter or an ANet employee!) the only point where it benefits you to spend them in advance is if you’ve leveled up and done challenges and gotten no points from any other source (ie you stopped playing the alt the first time you hit 80 and never used a skill point source item) because those sources will become Hero Points whether or not you spend the skill points now. And even then it means buying forge mats with them, not buying skills and utilities and traits, if you don’t want them to “vanish.”

I am open to being corrected by anyone with a better grasp of the underpinnings of the new system.

edit: I should have included a quote, this was to Stars’ comments on my implications, a few posts above.

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Posted by: Ardid.7203

Ardid.7203

Ok, I just want to clear ONE point.
If I get all the skills on a character with the minimum level possible, just by buying most skills with skillpoints from skill scrolls, without ever doing any skill challenge will I receive any hero points in exchange of those?

“Only problem with the Engineer is
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

Simple stuff here.

Any item scrolls and any spare points left over for each character, are getting converted into currency. The difference between 200 stocked points + 200 scrolls and 400 stocked points is nil. It all becomes 400 spirit shards.

If the skill points have been spent, they’re gone. So if you bought your way into getting skills and traits, no refund.

The number of Hero Points will be based on level (5/level after a certain point, if I recall right), and one for each hero challenge completed. That’s it. As of right now, level 80 and 65 hero challenges is projected to be enough for all core competencies.

That’s not what Donari seems to imply here. What Donari seems to imply is that if you have 200 stocked points + 200 scroll points, you only get 200 spirit shards since 200 “skill challenges” will be subtracted out to become “hero points”

It’s best to look at it from a programming perspective. Because there isn’t a way to differentiate where the points came from without a very pre-planned variable (which there was no reason to code for a launch), it’s easier to take the readily available data:

  1. level
  2. skill challenges completed
  3. scrolls in inventory.

If they’re feeling especially generous, they might (not counting on it) code in a conversion for skills and/or traits that were earned previously and convert the cost into more shards. I severely doubt that will be the case.

What’s more likely to happen is they’ll wipe the utility bars, unhinge the old utilities and traits, insert the new ones, then get players into re-purchasing and organizing their builds.

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

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Posted by: Donari.5237

Donari.5237

Ok, I just want to clear ONE point.
If I get all the skills on a character with the minimum level possible, just by buying most skills with skillpoints from skill scrolls, without ever doing any skill challenge will I receive any hero points in exchange of those?

I don’t think so. I think it’s level + challenges only.

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Posted by: LanfearShadowflame.3189

LanfearShadowflame.3189

So we not losing skills/ utilities right? Thats my main issue with this confusion.

Define “losing.” All of the current utilities and traits are being massively reworked and reorganized. We’re all losing all of them, essentially.

Then we get to buy the new versions. If we have level 80 + 65 skill challenges complete, we can buy the new ones right away, regardless of whether we had the old ones or not.

Bull kitties! !! You know what i meant! Losing skills is losing skills. Nobody liked that when the trait system first changed. Now us max levels also lose skills. Bull kittens! !

If it works the way I understand it to work and you have done 0 skill challenges on a character, the short answer is yes.

They have mentioned nothing about grandfathering anyone in, so at this point I’m assuming this will not be happening. As such, a level 80 character with 0 skill challenged done will only have 400 of the 465 total points necessary for a complete core unlock. However, at 5 points per trait or skill, this equates to 13 traits or skills (or combination there of) that you don’t unlock. Which, is actually relatively minor considering that there are a lot of utility skills (for example) that we just don’t use.

I understand that some of us unlock things just for the sake of having them unlocked. After all, we had nothing better to do, but in the grand scheme of things it’s not that big a deal.

Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.

(edited by LanfearShadowflame.3189)

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Posted by: Linken.6345

Linken.6345

Ok, I just want to clear ONE point.
If I get all the skills on a character with the minimum level possible, just by buying most skills with skillpoints from skill scrolls, without ever doing any skill challenge will I receive any hero points in exchange of those?

Well i would assume no you wont.
Since it the skill challenges and skillpoints from 1-80 that get converted to hero points not skill point scrolls

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Posted by: Ardid.7203

Ardid.7203

They should simply give us as many hero points as skill points we actually spend getting (you guess it) skills. I don’t see why that is so complicated. We already earned those skills.

In the case of traits, they should give us a quantity proportional to what we have. If someone have 50% of the traits unlocked, they should give that player the 50% of the trait currency needed to complete all the traits in the new system.

Even more simple:

While I understand it could be tricky with the change on the traits, all the mess with the skills I just dont get.

The new system WILL NOT CHANGE THE SKILLS. Why do they need to clean them? Just leave the earned skills as they are!

“Only problem with the Engineer is
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks

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Posted by: Palindrome.8904

Palindrome.8904

Hero points only come from leveling and skill challenges. You must have the 65 skill challenges complete to unlock all core skills/traits.

Most likely approach will be to convert all skill points on each character to the currency.

100 skill points saved + level 80 + 50 challenges complete = 100 spirit shards + 450 hero points.

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Posted by: LanfearShadowflame.3189

LanfearShadowflame.3189

They should simply give us as many hero points as skill points we actually spend getting (you guess it) skills. I don’t see why that is so complicated. We already earned those skills.

In the case of traits, they should give us a quantity proportional to what we have. If someone have 50% of the traits unlocked, they should give that player the 50% of the trait currency needed to complete all the traits in the new system.

Even more simple:

While I understand it could be tricky with the change on the traits, all the mess with the skills I just dont get.

The new system WILL NOT CHANGE THE SKILLS. Why do they need to clean them? Just leave the earned skills as they are!

It’s likely due to the nature of the new system (which is intended to have a very finite number of points, and which don’t convert 1 to 1 across the board) that they went the route they did. To go your route would require a lot of additional calculations to catch all of the possible scenarios. Due to the complexity of that task, it could introduce a serious number of bugs into the game. The simpler they keep it, the less that could potentially go wrong.

Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.

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Posted by: glehmann.9586

glehmann.9586

Not exactly. Points from levels and points from challenges become Hero Points. Any points you have past that become shards.

How do you know this will be the case? I don’t think anyone at Anet has said that any of your skill points will become hero points. This sounds like you’re making an inference based on the fact that you get hero points from leveling and skill challenges instead of skill points, and while it’s not an unreasonable inference, I think it’s unlikely to be true.

I actually think it’s much more likely that they will simply convert all of your unspent skill points into spirit shards, regardless of source, and then give you as many hero points as your level and completed skill challenges would indicate. There’s no reason to actually convert skill points into hero points.

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Posted by: Donari.5237

Donari.5237

That is pretty much what I’ve been saying, I just shortened it in that post. I think the order will be the other way around, though. First you get credited with Hero Points to match your earned points (via level/challenges), then any leftover points turn into shards.

I could be wrong on the exact mechanics, as I’ve said several times today. My point of view is more “will I have enough for the core specs” than “will I ‘lose’ resources.” I don’t use the forge much, I almost never buy mats from Miyani, so anything beyond the Hero Points is just going to vanish into my wallet anyway and I frankly don’t care about the exact figures of how many useless (to me) currency items I’ll be receiving.

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Posted by: Knighthonor.4061

Knighthonor.4061

They should simply give us as many hero points as skill points we actually spend getting (you guess it) skills. I don’t see why that is so complicated. We already earned those skills.

In the case of traits, they should give us a quantity proportional to what we have. If someone have 50% of the traits unlocked, they should give that player the 50% of the trait currency needed to complete all the traits in the new system.

Even more simple:

While I understand it could be tricky with the change on the traits, all the mess with the skills I just dont get.

The new system WILL NOT CHANGE THE SKILLS. Why do they need to clean them? Just leave the earned skills as they are!

Stop using logic!!!

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Posted by: Zaklex.6308

Zaklex.6308

Just read this again, and again, and again until you can comprehend it…this answers the question about skill points, from today’s blog on the updated wallet:

“What about Skill Points?

Previously, we told you that endless sources of skill points will reward a different currency instead. The new wallet will house the new currency, spirit shards.
Currently, there are two sources of skill points. The first are limited sources, such as skill-point challenges and the level-up guide. The second are endlessly repeatable, such as scrolls of knowledge and leveling up after 80. Skill points also had two uses: unlocking skills, and buying materials for the Mystic Forge.
What we had were two systems that should have been using two different currencies, and now they do. Every source that used to give scrolls of knowledge will now give spirit shards, which Miyani will accept for her materials. A few things will change to accommodate this split:
Tomes of knowledge will level you up if you are under level 80 and give one spirit shard if you’ve reached level 80.
Writs of experience can only be used if you’re under level 80, and they can be traded in to Miyani for a tome of knowledge at a rate of 20 writs per tome.
Leveling up after level 80 no longer grants skill points, but level 80 characters will be able to loot spirit shards off of monsters.
Any scrolls of knowledge that you have in your possession will automatically be converted to spirit shards, and any source that used to award scrolls of knowledge will now grant spirit shards.
The conversion of skill points to spirit shards will be automatic. This will happen on a per?character basis, so make sure to log in on each character to receive your total count! I think you’ll be surprised at just how many spirit shards you have."

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Posted by: PseudoNewb.5468

PseudoNewb.5468

I think you’ll be surprised at just how many spirit shards you have."

So is Anet saying we will get more shards that we are thinking… ?

Sounds like to me, they are going to do this. Refund all skill points spent on utilities (and possibly refund currencies spent on traits). Convert the final amount to shards straight up. Done.

Any skill points received from leveling and skill challenges from before the change will simply be considered eligible for conversion to shards as a bonus to people playing before the conversion. Hero Challenges and Levels done in the future will then only grant hero points.
If this is the case then each character can get the equivalent of 202 + 76 possible bonus shards from the respective activities that will no longer give shards in the future.

So we potentially will have 278 more shards per character than we might think right now.

This makes sense to me, because it is always easier to give extra than to make some convoluted set of rules that can take something away from people.

When Anet change refinement ratios, they don’t retroactively re-adjust people’s quantities of refined materials to reflect it’s new cost, they just let them keep the materials made at the lower costs as a bonus. The same philosophy should be used for this transition.

If this is the case, then farming skill challenges at this time to unlock both the future hero points and get a bonus shard could be a thing you would want to do. But…. you only need 65 Skill challenges for the foreseeable future… and it is really, much easier to farm scrolls than skill challenges anyways.

I am just speculating, so don’t let my purely unsubstantiated speculations alter how you play the game. (But then again farming skill challenges for speculation over extra shards wouldn’t be as bad as that beta portal thing).

Skill points, regardless of the sources, are converted to shards.

Old skill points in excess of those earned by leveling and skill challenges will be converted into crafting materials for the Mystic Forge.

I would like to point out that the old article does put a stipulation on shard conversion based on its sources, but you claim it is regardless of the source.
The stipulation of “in excess of those earned by leveling and skill challenges” seems to be very problematic to implement, so I hope Anet simply removes it like you suggest and gives everyone bonus shards.

(edited by PseudoNewb.5468)

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Posted by: glehmann.9586

glehmann.9586

That is pretty much what I’ve been saying, I just shortened it in that post. I think the order will be the other way around, though. First you get credited with Hero Points to match your earned points (via level/challenges), then any leftover points turn into shards.

I could be wrong on the exact mechanics, as I’ve said several times today. My point of view is more “will I have enough for the core specs” than “will I ‘lose’ resources.” I don’t use the forge much, I almost never buy mats from Miyani, so anything beyond the Hero Points is just going to vanish into my wallet anyway and I frankly don’t care about the exact figures of how many useless (to me) currency items I’ll be receiving.

It’s the “leftover points” thing where I think you and I are diverging. I don’t think there’s going to be any leftover points to do anything with. They’ll look at your character, see that it’s level 80, has completed 100 skill challenges, and see that you have 200 unspent skill points, and then give you 500 hero points and 200 spirit shards.

If you got to level 80 and did 65 skill challenges (exactly enough to get the 465 hero points needed to unlock everything when the update goes live), haven’t spent any skill points on skills, and haven’t leveled at all past 80, then right now you’d have 141 skill points (76 from leveling and 65 from skill challenges). After the update, I assume you’d have 465 hero points and 141 spirit shards. The way you’ve phrased things, it sounds like you think that character would have 465 hero points and 0 spirit shards.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

Skill points, regardless of the sources, are converted to shards.

Old skill points in excess of those earned by leveling and skill challenges will be converted into crafting materials for the Mystic Forge.

I would like to point out that the old article does put a stipulation on shard conversion based on its sources, but you claim it is regardless of the source.
The stipulation of “in excess of those earned by leveling and skill challenges” seems to be very problematic to implement, so I hope Anet simply removes it like you suggest and gives everyone bonus shards.

Yeah. When I originally read it my first thought was what a few people here assumed and that you’d lose the excess sp from world completion. But I then thought of how could they possibly track how each point originated from this far into the game. It made more sense that they’d all be converted. There is the technically a way I suppose but there’s a flaw in it.

If anyone is worried about taking a loss because I this, I suggest that you spend all of the skill points currently in your characters towards something that you know you will use in the future such as augur stones or bloodstone shards. This might not be feasible if you have quite a lot though.

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Posted by: Linken.6345

Linken.6345

Skill points, regardless of the sources, are converted to shards.

Old skill points in excess of those earned by leveling and skill challenges will be converted into crafting materials for the Mystic Forge.

I would like to point out that the old article does put a stipulation on shard conversion based on its sources, but you claim it is regardless of the source.
The stipulation of “in excess of those earned by leveling and skill challenges” seems to be very problematic to implement, so I hope Anet simply removes it like you suggest and gives everyone bonus shards.

Yeah. When I originally read it my first thought was what a few people here assumed and that you’d lose the excess sp from world completion. But I then thought of how could they possibly track how each point originated from this far into the game. It made more sense that they’d all be converted. There is the technically a way I suppose but there’s a flaw in it.

If anyone is worried about taking a loss because I this, I suggest that you spend all of the skill points currently in your characters towards something that you know you will use in the future such as augur stones or bloodstone shards. This might not be feasible if you have quite a lot though.

thats if you havent unlocked all/most of your skills already.

Those are spent skillpoints we dont know if you will get back and you will use the same nr of skillpoints to unlock the skills again anyway.